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SicEmBaylor
10/6/2011, 03:29 PM
Very very interesting article. I'm definitely going to pick up the book. I'm not sure how many American WWII veterans feel the same way, but I'm guessing these sorts of sentiments are worse in Britain. The United States has always been a diverse country, but the changes to Britain over the last 60 years are pretty astonishing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1229643/This-isnt-Britain-fought-say-unknown-warriors-WWII.html?fb_ref=LikeButtonTop&fb_source=profile_multiline

TUSooner
10/6/2011, 04:05 PM
That is sad. At least most Americans have the deceny to respect our WW2 generation, even as it passes away.

Lott's Bandana
10/6/2011, 04:16 PM
The article was interesting, but isn't the generation that is complaining the generation that allowed all this change to happen?

TUSooner
10/6/2011, 04:20 PM
The article was interesting, but isn't the generation that is complaining the generation that allowed all this change to happen?
I think that would have been one generation after that. IOW, that generation's grandchildren. sort of?

Lott's Bandana
10/6/2011, 04:26 PM
Well, SicEm states "...the last 60 years."

If so and so is 85 years old, then that pretty much encompasses the generation that allowed their culture to erode. 25 - 85

As a Baby Boomer, I personally think my generation sucks as well. We were handed what our parents struggled to achieve. Then turned around and handed more to our kids who have no friggin clue what sacrifice and earning means, but it isn't really their fault. We took away dodgeball, not them. <metaphor alert

I say all of this as a representative of the middle class...I don't claim to speak for those more or less fortunate than I have been.

NormanPride
10/6/2011, 04:33 PM
Our generation is just getting to the point that we're starting to raise kids. I wonder what kind of parents we'll be... Distant? Helicopter? Just plain bad? Good?

I was raised by well adjusted parents that taught me to earn what I get. baj is the same. I would like to think we will be good parents, but I don't know what to think about our fellow millenials that think divorce is something normal and that money trumps everything...

SicEmBaylor
10/6/2011, 04:35 PM
The article was interesting, but isn't the generation that is complaining the generation that allowed all this change to happen?


Well, SicEm states "...the last 60 years."

If so and so is 85 years old, then that pretty much encompasses the generation that allowed their culture to erode. 25 - 85

As a Baby Boomer, I personally think my generation sucks as well. We were handed what our parents struggled to achieve. Then turned around and handed more to our kids who have no friggin clue what sacrifice and earning means, but it isn't really their fault. We took away dodgeball, not them. <metaphor alert

I say all of this as a representative of the middle class...I don't claim to speak for those more or less fortunate than I have been.

You have a fair point about them allowing it to happen, but I'm not sure what all they could have done to stop it. It's no different than our WWII generation being unable to stop all of the societal changes that took place in the 60's-70's. I'm reasonably sure they were just as horrified by what their country was becoming as Britain's WWII generation was about changes in the UK. However, that's not to say there weren't some positive changes. The end of segregation and civil rights are just two that come to mind. Despite all the issues I have with liberalism, they do occasionally highlight very negative aspects of our society and culture that do legitimately need to be changed.

I wasn't born until '82, so I've never really understood how that particular generation allowed things to change as they did. Did they not spank their kids enough? I really don't know. I do know that I absolutely detest the baby boomer generation (as a whole not as individuals).

Tulsa_Fireman
10/6/2011, 05:02 PM
Our generation is just getting to the point that we're starting to raise kids. I wonder what kind of parents we'll be... Distant? Helicopter? Just plain bad? Good?

I was raised by well adjusted parents that taught me to earn what I get. baj is the same. I would like to think we will be good parents, but I don't know what to think about our fellow millenials that think divorce is something normal and that money trumps everything...

A former assistant chief of the Tulsa Fire Department put together a pretty amazing seminar on generational differences as it relates to the fire service. The point of the seminar was to address general qualities found in each generation and how that can and does affect management styles and motivational techniques for management and fireground supervisors. From his research on the topic, money ISN'T the driving factor for Millenials. Not even close. The things you quote, divorce, split parent homes, and the shift of what the traditional home is has show through research that many in the Millenial generation place a higher value on the family and find importance in spending time with families above the organization and its needs.

Pretty insightful stuff.

Lott's Bandana
10/6/2011, 05:13 PM
A former assistant chief of the Tulsa Fire Department put together a pretty amazing seminar on generational differences as it relates to the fire service. The point of the seminar was to address general qualities found in each generation and how that can and does affect management styles and motivational techniques for management and fireground supervisors. From his research on the topic, money ISN'T the driving factor for Millenials. Not even close. The things you quote, divorce, split parent homes, and the shift of what the traditional home is has show through research that many in the Millenial generation place a higher value on the family and find importance in spending time with families above the organization and its needs.

Pretty insightful stuff.


That actually sounds encouraging.

badger
10/6/2011, 05:30 PM
What made the greatest generation so great was that they knew what it was like to live without luxury and having to sacrifice, not by choice always, but by force, either through poverty or through war rationing.

The next few generations, the Baby Boomers and Gen-X, had its own issues to work through with war and with the civil rights movement, but it didn't have a big economic fiasco like the Great Depression.

Now, my own Millennial generation is dealing with this "Great Recession," where we, like our Greatest Generation grandparents, are seeing what high unemployment, low incomes and economic hopelessness looks like at a young age, which will hopefully make us appreciate what we have and work hard to make the future better.

It was a good life and a good economy for the past few generations with great standards of living, great wages, low house purchase prices (and high sell prices) for our parents and the generation right before us. Now it's back to reality. Hopefully, that will label our generation "great" one day also like grandma and grandpa.

Caboose
10/6/2011, 07:23 PM
Pretty sad story. Another once proud culture and nation destroyed by Liberalism.

SicEmBaylor
10/6/2011, 08:06 PM
Pretty sad story. Another once proud culture and nation destroyed by Liberalism.

I wouldn't pin the blame on liberalism. I pin the blame on immigration and multi-culturalism. Britain had plenty of progressive governments prior to WWII. There were, and still are, plenty of open socialists and some communists that were respectable members of parliament. How many open communists did the US have then or now? Even with FDR in power, the US Government was far more conservative than that of Britain. If you read the complaints, you'd notice that many expect the government to provide certain social assurances.

No, as usual, I blame immigrants. Britain's identity is virtually gone which is what these old warriors are saddened by. The influx of immigrants has forever changed and altered what it means to be British. Britain isn't the United States which has always been fairly diverse...Britain has more than 1000 years of history and what it means to be British. Social etiquette is just a by-product of this problem. If nobody respects the historical British identity then how can you expect the newest generation to respect the social etiquette rules that were part of that no longer existent identity?

It's sad because these old warriors no longer recognize the country that they fought and their compatriots died for. A pity.

TUSooner
10/6/2011, 08:25 PM
Pretty sad story. Another once proud culture and nation destroyed by Liberalism.

In Britain's heyday, "liberalism" gave birth to such "radical" concepts as constitutionalism, democracy, civil rights, capitalism, free trade, and freedom of religion. Nowadays, "liberal" is just a lazy, pejorative catch-all for whatever is not congruent with a narrow, strident conservative orthodoxy. One might as well say "heathen" or "infidel" for all the dangerously sloppy semantics "liberal" entails. Simplistic language expresses simplistic thoughts, like writing human history with chalk on a sidewalk, or drawing a sunset with a black crayon. No wonder we don't communicate effectively and civilly: We don't WANT to.

Caboose
10/6/2011, 08:46 PM
In Britain's heyday, "liberalism" gave birth to such "radical" concepts as constitutionalism, democracy, civil rights, capitalism, free trade, and freedom of religion. Nowadays, "liberal" is just a lazy, pejorative catch-all for whatever is not congruent with a narrow, strident conservative orthodoxy. One might as well say "heathen" or "infidel" for all the dangerously sloppy semantics "liberal" entails. Simplistic language expresses simplistic thoughts, like writing human history with chalk on a sidewalk, or drawing a sunset with a black crayon. No wonder we don't communicate effectively and civilly: We don't WANT to.

No one is talking about liberalism. There is nothing wrong with liberalism. I am talking about Liberalism. The problem with Liberals is that they are not at all liberal.

Caboose
10/6/2011, 08:49 PM
I wouldn't pin the blame on liberalism. I pin the blame on immigration and multi-culturalism. Britain had plenty of progressive governments prior to WWII. There were, and still are, plenty of open socialists and some communists that were respectable members of parliament. How many open communists did the US have then or now? Even with FDR in power, the US Government was far more conservative than that of Britain. If you read the complaints, you'd notice that many expect the government to provide certain social assurances.

No, as usual, I blame immigrants. Britain's identity is virtually gone which is what these old warriors are saddened by. The influx of immigrants has forever changed and altered what it means to be British. Britain isn't the United States which has always been fairly diverse...Britain has more than 1000 years of history and what it means to be British. Social etiquette is just a by-product of this problem. If nobody respects the historical British identity then how can you expect the newest generation to respect the social etiquette rules that were part of that no longer existent identity?

It's sad because these old warriors no longer recognize the country that they fought and their compatriots died for. A pity.

Immigration itself is not a problem. Liberal immigration policies are the problem. Every ill the veterans mentioned in the article can be traced back to a root in a Liberal policy.

TUSooner
10/6/2011, 08:53 PM
No one is talking about liberalism. There is nothing wrong with liberalism. I am talking about Liberalism. The problem with Liberals is that they are not at all liberal. But if you're talking about Britain's ills, I think you ought to just call it flat-out socialism, and inept socialism at that.
You may know what you mean, but my description of liberalism fits the great majority of other cases of public discourse.

Caboose
10/6/2011, 09:28 PM
But if you're talking about Britain's ills, I think you ought to just call it flat-out socialism, and inept socialism at that.

There is little discernible difference between modern Liberalism (even the American version of it) and socialism.


You may know what you mean, but my description of liberalism fits the great majority of other cases of public discourse.

You seem to acknowledge the difference between classical liberalism and the abomination that is modern Liberalism but you dont want to give right-leaning folks credit for doing the same.
Furthermore, one could just as easily say that Nowadays, "conservative" is just a lazy, pejorative catch-all for whatever is not congruent with a narrow, strident Liberal orthodoxy. One might as well say "heathen" or "infidel" for all the dangerously sloppy semantics "conservative" entails. Replace "conservative" with "Tea-bagger" or "wing-nut" or whatever the phrase of the day the Religious Left has been instructed use to marginalize the infidels and the result is the same. It is ironic, if nothing else, that when I as a fairly liberal independent used the word "Liberal" in a negative context you felt the need to imply that it is "simple-minded conservatives" who are guilty of sloppy labeling and impairing civil discussion.
Remember which side of the "conversation" is immediately branded as racists, homophobes, bigots, and sexists for disagreeing with a Liberal on an issue having nothing to do with race, sexuality, or gender. Hell, on this very board I was immediately called a "caveman" for pointing out that some people felt unborn babies had the right to life. One does not have to be diametrically opposed to the stance of the modern Liberal to draw his scorn and mouth-frothing hate...a mere in slight disagreement on minor details will do the trick as well.

TUSooner
10/7/2011, 07:58 AM
There is little discernible difference between modern Liberalism (even the American version of it) and socialism.



You seem to acknowledge the difference between classical liberalism and the abomination that is modern Liberalism but you dont want to give right-leaning folks credit for doing the same.
Furthermore, one could just as easily say that Nowadays, "conservative" is just a lazy, pejorative catch-all for whatever is not congruent with a narrow, strident Liberal orthodoxy. One might as well say "heathen" or "infidel" for all the dangerously sloppy semantics "conservative" entails. Replace "conservative" with "Tea-bagger" or "wing-nut" or whatever the phrase of the day the Religious Left has been instructed use to marginalize the infidels and the result is the same. It is ironic, if nothing else, that when I as a fairly liberal independent used the word "Liberal" in a negative context you felt the need to imply that it is "simple-minded conservatives" who are guilty of sloppy labeling and impairing civil discussion.
Remember which side of the "conversation" is immediately branded as racists, homophobes, bigots, and sexists for disagreeing with a Liberal on an issue having nothing to do with race, sexuality, or gender. Hell, on this very board I was immediately called a "caveman" for pointing out that some people felt unborn babies had the right to life. One does not have to be diametrically opposed to the stance of the modern Liberal to draw his scorn and mouth-frothing hate...a mere in slight disagreement on minor details will do the trick as well.

Actually, I almost said something about the misuse of "conservative" but my post was long anyway. Dividing political thought into just 2 columns is sloppy and inaccurate in itself. But I think the L word used in a MUCH more pejorative way than is conservative. The cap L is just a contrivance anyway. It's improper usage because it's not meant to denote a proper noun, like Republican or Democrat, which have different recognized meanings without caps. Adding the cap L is like sayin, "no not them, THEM <points finger>." I stand by my assessment that "liberalism" (with or without the cap L) is just a sloppy catch-all for "the enemy." When I see someone blame the Liberals, I know I have just heard a proxy for a real argument.

Yes, I am being obstinate. I realize that language means what people agree that it means (Humpty Dumpty notwithstanding.) I just resent the facts that a noble word like liberal has been coopted for use as an epithet meaning leftist or socialist or infidel by people with monochrome minds.

sappstuf
10/7/2011, 10:11 AM
Europe is changing..


Warning over France's Islamic suburbs which are becoming 'separate communities in a divided nation'

France's run-down city suburbs are becoming ‘separate Islamic societies’ cut off from the state, a report has warned.

Arab communities are increasingly rejecting French values and identity to immerse themselves in Muslim culture and lifestyle, it was found.

Muslim pupils often boycott school dinners if the food is not halal and most Arabs oppose marriages to white French citizens, the study by respected political scientist Gilles Kepel revealed.

As a result, France – whose five million Muslims make up Europe’s largest Islamic population – was turning into a ‘divided nation’, the study called Suburbs of the Republic found.

Dr Kepel wrote: ‘In some areas, a third of the population of the town does not hold French nationality, and many residents are drawn to an Islamic identity rather than simply rejecting or failing to find a secular one.

‘French schools, which are rigorously non-religious, have traditionally been seen as having the role of training young citizens of the republic.

But local officials say Islamic pupils are heading home for a halal lunch.

‘Most people in France do not object to mixed marriages, but in the suburbs we were surprised to find a very large proportion of Muslim respondents said they were opposed to marriages with non-Muslims.’

The study was commissioned by the Institut Montaigne think-tank. It will make recommendations to the government in January.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2046202/Frances-Islamic-suburbs-separate-communites-divided-nation.html#ixzz1a6ocMy6X

NormanPride
10/7/2011, 10:32 AM
A former assistant chief of the Tulsa Fire Department put together a pretty amazing seminar on generational differences as it relates to the fire service. The point of the seminar was to address general qualities found in each generation and how that can and does affect management styles and motivational techniques for management and fireground supervisors. From his research on the topic, money ISN'T the driving factor for Millenials. Not even close. The things you quote, divorce, split parent homes, and the shift of what the traditional home is has show through research that many in the Millenial generation place a higher value on the family and find importance in spending time with families above the organization and its needs.

Pretty insightful stuff.

This is entirely true. Everyone I know values their time off and work-life balance more than salary or particular benefits. Some of that can be construed as laziness by our more senior generations, and I think that's fair. But if we can be lazy, maintain a good, happy, healthy life and provide for our families... Is that really bad? I know Dean gets on here and rides people for not working their hardest, or not getting to their full potential. I think that's a noble goal, but I grew up with parents that didn't have much free time. I saw other kids with parents that worked at home or had flexible schedules and was extremely jealous. My dad was fortunate enough to have weekends free so he could coach at sporting events or attend concerts when I joined the band program. Other parents didn't have that luxury and I think as their kids have grown they put their priorities at being around their kids and being able to provide for them emotionally rather than monetarily.

The greatest example of this was what I saw at my 10 year reunion. One of my high school's rich kids (and there were a lot) had a kid of his own. His parents had been the type to throw money at him and forget about him, thinking that if they gave him what he wanted he would be happy. He was kind of an *** in high school, but seeing him with his kid was eye-opening. He had mellowed, grew a beard, and was having fun playing with his kid even with all his old buddies around him. I hadn't ever seen him smile like that, and it was refreshing.

badger
10/7/2011, 11:42 AM
Europe is changing..

Ja. I think its shocking Europeans because they have thousands of years of a certain identity that is getting changed, whereas a country like the U.S., that is relatively new to the mix doesn't have an established race, religion, etc., so the shock isn't as crazy to us.

Perhaps that's why so many assimilate into the American culture more quickly as opposed to these countries' immigrants: They don't fit the stereotype or the expected mold, so they feel rejected right away.

cleller
10/10/2011, 09:14 PM
One thing's for sure, its not too many Englishmen that ruined England.

Veritas
10/10/2011, 10:37 PM
SicEm, have you read the cover piece in the latest American Conservative?