Cain's 9-9-9 Plan?

[CrimsonCream]

Herman Cain is proposing a 9-9-9 Plan.

9% Income Tax, 9% Corporate Tax and a 9% National Sales Tax. Seems like a straight-forward, fair and simplistic plan. What flaws do you see in it?

[TUSooner]

Herman Cain is proposing a 9-9-9 Plan.

9% Income Tax, 9% Corporate Tax and a 9% National Sales Tax. Seems like a straight-forward, fair and simplistic plan. What flaws do you see in it?
Just offhand, its main problems appear to be its straight-forwardness, fairness, and simplicity. :biggrin:
Although I am sure the #1 criticism will be that it is too "simplistic" (as opposed to being merely simple).

[okie52]

It would probably pizz off a lot of CPA's.

[Lott's Bandana]

Why not 6-6-6?

[diverdog]

Herman Cain is proposing a 9-9-9 Plan.

9% Income Tax, 9% Corporate Tax and a 9% National Sales Tax. Seems like a straight-forward, fair and simplistic plan. What flaws do you see in it?

Crimson:

What is subject to the sales tax?

I do appreciate he is thinking outside the box.

[Ton Loc]

What amount would that raise compared to the FUBAR system we have now? I like it but it seems like it would be less money for the government, and the government doesn't do less money.

[CrimsonCream]

Crimson:

What is subject to the sales tax?

I do appreciate he is thinking outside the box.

Diver, actually I was waiting on your answer as well as others but I would think everything other than food and clothes. But then buying a fur coat also exempt?

Just so very tired of hearing Obama wanting to tax the high earners but what about people that pay nothing? Corporations that pay nothing?

Didn't your Daddy say, "Son, work hard and you'll get ahead." Then comes along a guy that wants to take from you and give it to somebody that does nothing for it. Nobody is saying not to help those that can't help themselves but f*ck the ones that can help themselves but won't.

Just tired of politicians thinking about the next election as opposed to doing right (no pun intended) for the Country.

[yermom]

9% national sales tax on top of local ones?

that sounds a bit harsh.

[CrimsonCream]

9% national sales tax on top of local ones?

that sounds a bit harsh.

Good point. Tennessee has a 9.75% Sales Tax but no State Income Tax.

[soonercoop1]

Just offhand, its main problems appear to be its straight-forwardness, fairness, and simplicity. :biggrin:
Although I am sure the #1 criticism will be that it is too "simplistic" (as opposed to being merely simple).

That would seem to be the only problem those in DC would have with it since its only a few pages versus 3-4000.....

[badger]

Herman Cain is proposing a 9-9-9 Plan.

9% Income Tax, 9% Corporate Tax and a 9% National Sales Tax. Seems like a straight-forward, fair and simplistic plan. What flaws do you see in it?

The flaw in the income tax would be that there are too many loopholes that could cause people to circumvent their taxes. There are various write-offs, etc.

The flaw in the corporate tax is that there are also too many loopholes that could cause businesses to circumvent their tax obligation.

The flaw in the sales tax is that it is a tax that usually takes a larger proportion of the income of the working classes.

But... those flaws are there regardless of what percentage you take.

[dwarthog]

IMO, one of the really big issues that will require being addressed quickly was on the front page of the Oklahoman this morning. The loss of sales tax to the states is getting to be quite a problem and we don't want to add a bunch of freaking federal regulations to deal with it either. Just more bureaucrats and more opportunities for mis-management.

This country needs to have a real serious discussion with regards to the cost of doing "business" at the Federal and State levels. Decide how to levy a flat tax across the board in an equitable manner, with ALL swinging richards paying something. Nobody gets away with paying zero. (Granted there will most likely be some exceptions to this, but no way it can continue to be 50%, but something far, far less).

There is a lot of opportunity here for "out of the box" thinking, if we can get folks to quit with the demagoguery BS.

[diverdog]

Diver, actually I was waiting on your answer as well as others but I would think everything other than food and clothes. But then buying a fur coat also exempt?

Just so very tired of hearing Obama wanting to tax the high earners but what about people that pay nothing? Corporations that pay nothing?

Didn't your Daddy say, "Son, work hard and you'll get ahead." Then comes along a guy that wants to take from you and give it to somebody that does nothing for it. Nobody is saying not to help those that can't help themselves but f*ck the ones that can help themselves but won't.

Just tired of politicians thinking about the next election as opposed to doing right (no pun intended) for the Country.

Crimson:

The reason I asked is because a 9% sales tax on the poor would really hurt them. Exempting food and clothes would make it more tolerable. The other question I would have to ask is how is medicare and SS funded?

Are there any studies that show what kind of revenue would be raised?

I am for a more simplified tax code.

[SoonerMom2]

That 9% sales tax is in addition to the sales tax we would be paying in our states so for us in OK, it would be 17% plus another 9% income tax which would equal 26% of our income with the sales tax coming right off the top. I don't want to pay 17% on everything I buy. Herman Cain also believes in gun control which I oppose. By the time I get my deductions I don't pay 28% of income in taxes a year. People forget when you talk national sales tax that is in addition to any state income tax.

[SoonerMom2]

The key is to close the loopholes that have made their way into the tax code. You can take it to the bank that the Cain plan will NEVER fly.

[OU_Sooners75]

That 9% sales tax is in addition to the sales tax we would be paying in our states so for us in OK, it would be 17% plus another 9% income tax which would equal 26% of our income with the sales tax coming right off the top. I don't want to pay 17% on everything I buy. Herman Cain also believes in gun control which I oppose. By the time I get my deductions I don't pay 28% of income in taxes a year. People forget when you talk national sales tax that is in addition to any state income tax.

Where the hell in Oklahoma has a 17% sales tax?

State Sales Tax is set at 4.5%
Local sales taxes range from 2.5%-5.5%
That is a highest of 10% in the state.

The highest it would be in Oklahoma is 19% with the national sales tax.

Also, doesn't anyone know what rate they pay in on income tax? Single claiming yourself, making less than $8,500.01 is 10% income tax.
Over 379,150 is 35%.

Middle class is from 20% to 33% income tax rate.

If it was set at 9% across the board, everyone would have more money to spend or save. And only new goods should or would be taxed on sale.

[pphilfran]

Yesterday, CNN did a review on the plan...

Showed significantly lower revenue vs current tax code...probably about 25% lower...bout what I thought...my calculations on a matchbook cover showed it would need to be at least 12-12-12 and possibly as high as 15-15-15 to get us where we need to be with revenue...20% of GDP...

I cant find a link as of yet...still looking...

[sappstuf]

Yesterday, CNN did a review on the plan...

Showed significantly lower revenue vs current tax code...probably about 25% lower...bout what I thought...my calculations on a matchbook cover showed it would need to be at least 12-12-12 and possibly as high as 15-15-15 to get us where we need to be with revenue...20% of GDP...

I cant find a link as of yet...still looking...

Phil,

his 999 plan is really just a segway to a Fair Tax plan.. It isn't his long term plan. What are the specifics of his Fair Tax plan?? I'm not sure anyone knows including Herman himself. I think he sees it as a way to boost the economy in a simple way before going even further with the fair tax plan.

[badger]

I remember the value added tax in Britain being like 20 percent, so it's not out of the question that if the U.S. was in money trouble that it would pass a national sales tax.

In addition to the currency exchange rate, it REALLY made stuff expensive.

But, it's time for people to step up and pay their share, and while a sales tax does take more of a percentage of income from poor than from rich, it is one that you can exercise some control over by deciding how many goods and services you want to purchase.

It might have some unintended consequences for the better, like pricing unhealthy crap outta the price range of some, meaning less alcohol consumption, less smoking, etc.

[pphilfran]

Here it is...

http://johnkingusa.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/06/tonights-truth-cains-9-9-9-plan/?iref=allsearch

[pphilfran]

Cain's plan would bring in 1.77 trillion...current regs would get 2.16 trillion (they are using 2010 data to get the 2.16 trillion)...and that 2010 revenue of 2.16 trillion is an amazing 14.9% of GDP...so the Cain plan would bring in 12% of GDP in the current environment...ouch...

imo we need to get to 20% of GDP for an extended period of time to get the debt under control...

So to get to 'my' goal of 20% the Cain plan would need to be need to be bumped to the 15-15-15 plan...

Put that in your pipe and smoke it...

[pphilfran]

Sapp, I don't know chit about it other than what I watched on CNN yesterday...

I do know that 9-9-9 won't be enough...

[dwarthog]

Cain's plan would bring in 1.77 trillion...current regs would get 2.16 trillion (they are using 2010 data to get the 2.16 trillion)...and that 2010 revenue of 2.16 trillion is an amazing 14.9% of GDP...so the Cain plan would bring in 12% of GDP in the current environment...ouch...

imo we need to get to 20% of GDP for an extended period of time to get the debt under control...

So to get to 'my' goal of 20% the Cain plan would need to be need to be bumped to the 15-15-15 plan...

Put that in your pipe and smoke it...

There definitely needs to be "get well" part included into any plans, but it would be easier to back away from once the "problem" is fixed if it were separated from a base amount required to run the show, otherwise it will be impossible to remove and just lead to more run away government spending.

[pphilfran]

There definitely needs to be "get well" part included into any plans, but it would be easier to back away from once the "problem" is fixed if it were separated from a base amount required to run the show, otherwise it will be impossible to remove and just lead to more run away government spending.

Excellent point...but I have little faith...

[sappstuf]

Sapp, I don't know chit about it other than what I watched on CNN yesterday...

I do know that 9-9-9 won't be enough...

This is from Herman Cain's website:


Phase 1 - 9-9-9
Current circumstances call for bolder action.
The Phase 1 Enhanced Plan incorporates the features of Phase One and gets us a step closer to Phase two.
I call on the Super Committee to pass the Phase 1 Enhanced Plan along with their spending cut package.
The Phase 1 Enhanced Plan unites Flat Tax supporters with Fair tax supporters.
Achieves the broadest possible tax base along with the lowest possible rate of 9%.
It ends the Payroll Tax completely – a permanent holiday!
Zero capital gains tax
Ends the Death Tax.
Eliminates double taxation of dividends
Business Flat Tax – 9%
Gross income less all investments, all purchases from other businesses and all dividends paid to shareholders.
Empowerment Zones will offer additional deductions for payroll employed in the zone.
Individual Flat Tax – 9%.
Gross income less charitable deductions.
Empowerment Zones will offer additional deductions for those living and/or working in the zone.
National Sales Tax – 9%.
This gets the Fair Tax off the sidelines and into the game.


Phase 2 – The Fair TaxAmidst a backdrop of the economic boom created by the Phase 1 Enhanced Plan, I will begin the process of educating the American people on the benefits of continuing the next step to the Fair Tax.
The Fair Tax would ultimately replace individual and corporate income taxes.
It would make it possible to end the IRS as we know it.
The Fair Tax makes our exported goods and services the most competitively internationally than any other tax system.

If you notice... Not many details on Phase II!

[pphilfran]

I am for anything that can eliminate the IRS and H&R Block...

[CrimsonCream]

otherwise it will be impossible to remove and just lead to more run away government spending.

This what I'm afraid of.

Obama and the politicians will not quit spending. One poll reflected that most people would agree to tax hikes if the money would not be spent but used to pay down the debt.

People are tuning Obama out. Not many anymore believe anything he says.

[sappstuf]

I am for anything that can eliminate the IRS and H&R Block...

Yeah. I think the 999 plan is supposed to be his version of a "stimulus plan" for a couple of years and then switch over to a fair tax.

[CatfishSooner]

sounds like a pretty good idea to me...

[KantoSooner]

Let's not get wound up with the number '9'. It might be 6, or 11 or whatever. We have to debate the principle first.
And I think the principle is pretty good.
I recall being at tax class in law school and having the prof make two comments that were utterly shocking to me:

1. "I can show you how to completely eliminate your need to pay taxes. It's all legal; but you will need to spend at least an hour a day, 365 a year to document well enough to make it work.'

and


2. 'No one alive or dead has ever read the US Tax Code in its totality. No one. And no one ever will. Thus, no one knows how it works or is supposed to work. If you're willing to spend the time, you can brow beat whoever into believing that you know more than they do all because every one knows that they don't know it all.'

Our tax code allows for way too many loopholes and the image of unfairness (and perhaps real unfairness, too). It desperately needs to be scrapped in its totality.

and, a personal feeling: ditch corporate taxes. You can't tax corporations. They are like worms. You're just indirectly taxing either the share holders, the employees, the suppliers or the customers. Cut to the chase and tax the individuals directly.

[pphilfran]

I agree...

[NormanPride]

The problem with raising taxes to 20% of GDP is that as soon as the initial scare of "OMG ECONOMY" is over (or even sooner) then the politicians in charge will just use that money to fund whatever programs they feel like.

We need to have a concrete plan, from day 1 to day 10000 or however long it takes, saying "this is the percentage we will tax, this is the percentage we will spend. The difference will be used to pay down our debts. There will be no changes to this plan until it is finished."

[OU_Sooners75]

I say get away from the income and gains taxes. and put in a flat national sales tax.

1. the 12 million + illegals would then be paying into the system.
2. you would get all your check (sans SS and medicaid/medicare deductions).
3. Corporations would not have to pay so much to make products, so in theory, it should lower the cost of products.
4. It would end all the loopholes in the current tax codes.

[SicEmBaylor]

Cain has tried to win broader support for his 999 plan but he just hasn't been Abel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CdVTCDdEwI&feature=related

[Caboose]

Let's not get wound up with the number '9'. It might be 6, or 11 or whatever. We have to debate the principle first.
And I think the principle is pretty good.
I recall being at tax class in law school and having the prof make two comments that were utterly shocking to me:

1. "I can show you how to completely eliminate your need to pay taxes. It's all legal; but you will need to spend at least an hour a day, 365 a year to document well enough to make it work.'

and


2. 'No one alive or dead has ever read the US Tax Code in its totality. No one. And no one ever will. Thus, no one knows how it works or is supposed to work. If you're willing to spend the time, you can brow beat whoever into believing that you know more than they do all because every one knows that they don't know it all.'

Our tax code allows for way too many loopholes and the image of unfairness (and perhaps real unfairness, too). It desperately needs to be scrapped in its totality.

and, a personal feeling: ditch corporate taxes. You can't tax corporations. They are like worms. You're just indirectly taxing either the share holders, the employees, the suppliers or the customers. Cut to the chase and tax the individuals directly.

You are making too much sense. Cease and desist at once.