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badger
9/28/2011, 05:11 PM
The latest here, which is that Greeks are saying no more taxes, they're exhausted.

Link (http://newsok.com/greek-official-ability-to-pay-new-taxes-exhausted/article/feed/301589?custom_click=headlines_widget)

Proposed salary and pension cuts had public workers striking, causing people to not be able to bus to work. They were apparently also peacefully protesting the proposed taxes by burning tax slips, rather than paying them, heh.


Parliament approved a new emergency property tax Tuesday to be added to electricity bills later this year, as Greece remains under strong international pressure to abide by its painful deficit-cutting targets. Greece will go bankrupt by mid-October if it does not get an expected €8 billion ($11 billion) loan.

I really have no idea what will happen, but I do know that every time the stock market tanks (like today, Dow down about 180ish??) European debt worries are cited these days.

zpMtHx8ZjjU

It's really sad that Greece has been reduced to this, a country with so much history of prosperity. :(

diverdog
9/28/2011, 08:31 PM
The latest here, which is that Greeks are saying no more taxes, they're exhausted.

Link (http://newsok.com/greek-official-ability-to-pay-new-taxes-exhausted/article/feed/301589?custom_click=headlines_widget)

Proposed salary and pension cuts had public workers striking, causing people to not be able to bus to work. They were apparently also peacefully protesting the proposed taxes by burning tax slips, rather than paying them, heh.



I really have no idea what will happen, but I do know that every time the stock market tanks (like today, Dow down about 180ish??) European debt worries are cited these days.

zpMtHx8ZjjU

It's really sad that Greece has been reduced to this, a country with so much history of prosperity. :(

Some of the debt is going to have to be forgiven. No other option.

SanJoaquinSooner
9/28/2011, 10:05 PM
Europe can't grow their way out of the problem. They will eventually have to inflate their way out of it. We will too, to a lesser degree than Europe.

OhU1
9/28/2011, 10:06 PM
We will have middle class welfare riots in the U.S in our life time. Tea Party disability pensioners and wanna be hippie G-20 anti-globalist rioters will join hands to riot when the government can no longer cut them a check and benefits are cut.

diverdog
9/29/2011, 08:17 AM
Europe can't grow their way out of the problem. They will eventually have to inflate their way out of it. We will too, to a lesser degree than Europe.

San:

You are exactly right. I heard a Harvard economist on BBC who spent most of his adult life fighting inflation at the fed. He said the problem that we have right now is the fed is to focused on inflation and that it would be better for our country to have inflation at a 5% level. That would allow us to grow and get out of this mess. Same with Europe.

Greece specifically cannot make enough cuts to get their house in order. Germany is going to have to bail them out and the poor German people will be on the hook for $2 trillion dollars.

sappstuf
9/29/2011, 08:39 AM
Some of the debt is going to have to be forgiven. No other option.

If it is forgiven than Greece will not change their spending habits which are completely unsustainable and then they would have to be forgiven again, and again....

I'm thinking like a $10 hooker, they will eventually go down... hard.

Some country has to be the example of how it all goes bad to scare the others.. Greece seems like a pretty valid choice.

badger
9/29/2011, 08:39 AM
I read a Forbes column a few months ago that said Europe should send their bailout money directly to the European banks that gave loans to the Greeks, give Greeks their currency printing plates back, kick them outta the EU and let them go Communist like they all seem to want to.

I am trying to picture a Communist country in the middle of Europe trying to not turn into North Korea, Venezuela, or Cuba. Hmmm...

Breadburner
9/29/2011, 08:49 AM
The Greeks didnt pay their taxes to start with......

diverdog
9/29/2011, 09:08 AM
I read a Forbes column a few months ago that said Europe should send their bailout money directly to the European banks that gave loans to the Greeks, give Greeks their currency printing plates back, kick them outta the EU and let them go Communist like they all seem to want to.

I am trying to picture a Communist country in the middle of Europe trying to not turn into North Korea, Venezuela, or Cuba. Hmmm...

There is one problem with this story. US banks particularly, Goldman Sachs, is behind a lot of problems. The issued a type of swap with a fictional exchange rate that allowed both Greece and Italy to borrow more money and at the same time mask their debt.

The problem for Europe and the rest of the world is if Greece goes under Ireland, Spain and Italy will not be far behind. Not only could the Euro zone explode it could also cause a world wide depression. One of the biggest issues for the Eurozone countries is the lack of a centralized bank and the fact that emerging economies were hurt by a highly valued Euro. Letting Greece fail is not a good option.

Midtowner
9/29/2011, 09:34 AM
...the problem that we have right now is the fed is to focused on inflation and that it would be better for our country to have inflation at a 5% level. That would allow us to grow and get out of this mess.

The problem with that is that inflation to the banks means that their assets (mostly debt) are substantially devalued. If monetary policy was created to benefit everyone, we'd have 5% or higher inflation right now. But since monetary policy is set by individuals beholden to the banking industry, we're going to have anti-inflationary policy.

pphilfran
9/29/2011, 01:18 PM
You have to be careful asking the fed to dial up inflation....

Just off the top of my head...

Stocks (thus wealth), cap gains revenue, and consumer confidence will all decline...stocks do poorly in a rising interest rate environment...

Bond holders...nutting better than holding a bond that is paying interest at half the current issue rate...sell it an you get nailed on principle...hold it and inflation eats up more than just your profit...wealth and consumer confidence all take a hit...

Higher interest rates won't help the housing market (autos also)...people can't sell or if they do they take an even bigger hit on selling price to cover the extra interest rate...fed revenue will decline due to higher interest rate deductions...wealth and consumer confidence take a hit...

No matter the method we use it is going to be nasty...

badger
9/29/2011, 01:22 PM
It seems that Greece might vote itself Communist even if the rest of the world tries not to let it get that far beyond socialism. I mean, their socialist party elected officials currently in office seem to know what's at stake by voting through tax increases... and the people hate them for it!

I think from the outside looking in, we can all say "they made their bed, now sleep in it," but to Greeks, they are blaming the banks that gave them the loans, saying that they were tricked, or deceived and now the tax money will go to the banks, which they say caused these financial problems, rather than helping Greece get back on its feet.

Alexander the Great and King Leonidas must be rolling in their graves.

diverdog
9/29/2011, 02:07 PM
The problem with that is that inflation to the banks means that their assets (mostly debt) are substantially devalued. If monetary policy was created to benefit everyone, we'd have 5% or higher inflation right now. But since monetary policy is set by individuals beholden to the banking industry, we're going to have anti-inflationary policy.

Midtown:

I think he was specifically addressing QE. He felt that there need to be more lending. The problem is it does not address the demand side nor does it address the devaluation of bank assets (loans) from such a move. However, there really is only two or three ways out of this mess...default, hyperinflation or higher taxes. Cuts are not going to help to stave off this crisis.

pphilfran
9/29/2011, 02:21 PM
Midtown:

I think he was specifically addressing QE. He felt that there need to be more lending. The problem is it does not address the demand side nor does it address the devaluation of bank assets (loans) from such a move. However, there really is only two or three ways out of this mess...default, hyperinflation or higher taxes. Cuts are not going to help to stave off this crisis.

Cuts alone are not going to help stave off this crisis.

diverdog
9/29/2011, 03:43 PM
Cuts alone are not going to help stave off this crisis.

Thanks phil. You get an assist. LOL

Their retirement plan is like a military retirement on steroids and everyone gets it. That has to be reworked.

BTW if Greece would not take down everyone else I would let them rot in their mess. I do not care for that country in the least.

cccasooner2
9/29/2011, 05:39 PM
If I have any say in this matter, we should reset to zero. You can then support me in the manner to which I am accustomed. It only seems fair and I am entitled to it. Viva la France.

badger
9/29/2011, 05:46 PM
I wish that everyone's debt could be reset to zero. With no house mortgages, student loans and credit cards to pay off, do you know how fast this economy would turn around?

:( followed by crazy-high prices, more irresponsibility and the same situation we are in now in a very short period of time.

MR2-Sooner86
9/29/2011, 06:42 PM
So, how bad are the riots going to be that will eventually hit here? We talking LA type riots in several major cities or the United States becomes Ohio State after a big loss...or win?

Place your bets now.