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Fraggle145
9/22/2011, 04:07 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/308894_281969618480690_114517875225866_1144593_149 4322467_n.jpg

This makes sense to me.

Curly Bill
9/22/2011, 04:39 PM
All that is just code for giving the government more money to waste. I'd rather put the government on a spending diet than taking more money from rich people or any other people.

NormanPride
9/22/2011, 04:39 PM
Too bad they'll either just push it on the consumer or pick up their factory and take it to Malaysia.

Bourbon St Sooner
9/22/2011, 04:42 PM
Reallly.



Dumb.





Argument.




That is all.

Curly Bill
9/22/2011, 04:44 PM
Exactly, lets stick it to the rich folks, the factory owners and such, so they can stick it to the rest of us.

Bourbon St Sooner
9/22/2011, 04:50 PM
Couldn't rich guy just come back and say "I provided you a job. We're even."

Like I said, really stupid argument.

CrimsonCream
9/22/2011, 04:57 PM
All that is just code for giving the government more money to waste. I'd rather put the government on a spending diet than taking more money from rich people or any other people.

It is.

Obama has really done this Country a disservice. He has been so dishonest, corrupt along with all the daily lies that the American People no longer trust him. People are tired of the "sleaze factor." The bribes, kick backs, the intimidination, the heavy handedness, etc. Arizona cries for help in defending its borders. What does the MF do? Sues them. Won't let Boeing build a plant in North Carolina because of Unions or the lack of them. (How's that for creating jobs?)

I tell you what, if this President was white there would be talk of impeachment. But everybody is afraid of that word "racism" that the Loons like to throw around everywhere.

People who vote for this asshat a second time really ought to be ashamed of themselves.

OutlandTrophy
9/22/2011, 05:03 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/308894_281969618480690_114517875225866_1144593_149 4322467_n.jpg

This makes sense to me.

It would because you've never worked a professional job in the private sector.

We all use the things she mentions yet few of us have the gumption to build a factory yet even fewer do so in the US anymore.

SCOUT
9/22/2011, 05:20 PM
The owner paid taxes when they earned the money to invest in the factory to begin with. The factory will pay property taxes on its assessed value. The new employee will pay taxes on their earnings and the owner will pay taxes in his/her profits. Sounds to me like the factory is doing its share to support the roads, schools etc.

MR2-Sooner86
9/22/2011, 05:23 PM
Yes if you make a dollar, it means you took it from somebody else. All business owners got to the top by backdoor deals and holding people at gunpoint.

The sad thing is people actually believe this and it's one of the reasons this country is going to hell.

Why work for myself when I can elect a politician to steal money from the person who worked harder than me in life?

badger
9/22/2011, 05:46 PM
Regardless of how people got rich, they apparently aren't about to let their investments go down the crapper, as Dow fell 400 points today as there was enough panic about a future recession to send us into a... yes, recession. :(

TitoMorelli
9/22/2011, 07:11 PM
Graduate of NW Classen?

Caboose
9/22/2011, 07:55 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/308894_281969618480690_114517875225866_1144593_149 4322467_n.jpg

This makes sense to me.


So unless you build a factory and give huge amounts of your profits to the government you aren't doing your fair share? Well I guess we are going to have to raise taxes on the poor to about 100% to compensate for their failure to contribute.

Not only Elizabeth Warren factually wrong, she is making a stupid argument.

diverdog
9/22/2011, 08:13 PM
The owner paid taxes when they earned the money to invest in the factory to begin with. The factory will pay property taxes on its assessed value. The new employee will pay taxes on their earnings and the owner will pay taxes in his/her profits. Sounds to me like the factory is doing its share to support the roads, schools etc.

This really depends on what kind of deal a factory or business owner gets. Walmart is notorious for getting waivers on property taxes and getting the rest of us to pick up their cost. In 2006 the US taxpayer picked up almost $100 billion dollars in direct and indirect subsidies to businesses. This is something that both the right and left have screamed about for years.

I remember a few years ago a bunch of billionaires actually making the same argument that is being made by this woman that taxpayer funded things like infrastructure, defense and education helped them make more money.

As for paying higher taxes. What many on this board do not get is if the rich are not taxed at a higher rate then they will be taxed. On average (based on national averages) 1 out of 2 posters on this board pay no taxes. At some point they will start to pay a lot more in taxes if the taxes on the rich are not raised.

A few stats for you guys.

The riches 400 Americans have more net worth than the GDP of Canada.
The top 20% of all households own more than 87% of all assets in this country.
One in four Americans have a net worth of zero or less.

SCOUT
9/22/2011, 08:17 PM
This really depends on what kind of deal a factory or business owner gets. Walmart is notorious for getting waivers on property taxes and getting the rest of us to pick up their cost.....passing on health care cost to the rest of us.

I remember a few years ago a bunch of billionaires actually making the same argument that is being made by this woman that taxpayer funded things like infrastructure, defense and education helped them make more money.

As for paying higher taxes. What many on this board do not get is if the rich are not taxed at a higher rate then they will be taxed. On average (based on national averages) 1 out of 2 posters on this board pay no taxes. At some point they will start to pay a lot more in taxes if the taxes on the rich are not raised.

A few stats for you guys.

The riches 400 Americans have more net worth than the GDP of Canada.
The top 20% of all households own more than 87% of all assets in this country.
One in four Americans have a net worth of zero or less.

So the factory was successful then? I don't see where in her comments she mentioned that the investor/owner of the factory was rich.

I guess being a business owner really does make someone "rich." I thought you had to make that business successful before you got that moniker.

Oh, and the reason WalMart and companies like it get local tax breaks is because they provide jobs and sales tax revenues. There is generally a net positive to the municipality providing the break, that's kind of why they do it.

diverdog
9/22/2011, 09:09 PM
So the factory was successful then? I don't see where in her comments she mentioned that the investor/owner of the factory was rich.

I guess being a business owner really does make someone "rich." I thought you had to make that business successful before you got that moniker.

Oh, and the reason WalMart and companies like it get local tax breaks is because they provide jobs and sales tax revenues. There is generally a net positive to the municipality providing the break, that's kind of why they do it.

Well I am assuming big hunk means lots of mola.

No being a business owner does not make one rich. But then again I know tons of business owners who pay no taxes.

Walmarts are rarely a good deal for the immediate community where they are located. We have a Walmart two miles from my home and most of the money goes out of the area. On top of that my property taxes and water rates went up because the town in its infinite wisdom secretly gave Walmart a sweetheart deal to put a superstore in the area.

SCOUT
9/22/2011, 10:23 PM
Well I am assuming big hunk means lots of mola.

No being a business owner does not make one rich. But then again I know tons of business owners who pay no taxes.

Walmarts are rarely a good deal for the immediate community where they are located. We have a Walmart two miles from my home and most of the money goes out of the area. On top of that my property taxes and water rates went up because the town in its infinite wisdom secretly gave Walmart a sweetheart deal to put a superstore in the area.

She is suggesting they keep a big hunk of what they earn, not that they have a big hunk of it. The reality is, you were looking for an evil rich/corporation angle and stretched it a bit.

Your anecdotes of "I know tons" and "my local WalMart" are fun, but they don't really change the reality. I am curious how WalMart is able to funnel their sales tax out of your area though. That is an interesting trick.

diverdog
9/23/2011, 06:02 AM
She is suggesting they keep a big hunk of what they earn, not that they have a big hunk of it. The reality is, you were looking for an evil rich/corporation angle and stretched it a bit.

Your anecdotes of "I know tons" and "my local WalMart" are fun, but they don't really change the reality. I am curious how WalMart is able to funnel their sales tax out of your area though. That is an interesting trick.

Delaware has no sales tax.

She did not define factory. It could be large or small.

And yes I know tons (relatively speaking more than I thought) of business owners who pay no taxes. I see their tax returns in my job. Every thing is expensed through the business. And yes I know a lot of business owners who pay a lot in taxes.

Midtowner
9/23/2011, 06:54 AM
The owner paid taxes when they earned the money to invest in the factory to begin with.

They probably also got millions tax credits and development incentives, quality jobs tax credits, etc. In the U.S., we don't build factories anymore without millions in subsidies to incentivize the company to build in city A vs. city B.


The factory will pay property taxes on its assessed value.

Except they probably get TIF financing to pay for the infrastructure upgrades benefiting their own plant, so really, their property taxes go right back into improving the value of their plant. This money will be taken directly from the money benefiting the local schools until the bond is paid off.


The new employee will pay taxes on their earnings and the owner will pay taxes in his/her profits. Sounds to me like the factory is doing its share to support the roads, schools etc.

Yeah, the employee will pay up to 35% on their earnings and the owner will only pay capital gains at 15%.

pphilfran
9/23/2011, 07:57 AM
CG rates should be lower....money is put to risk, every penny could be lost....it can take time to see significant profit, it could take years but when the money finally flows in we want to snatch up as much as we can...

Will raising taxes on US produced goods (as a general statement) make us more or less competitive in a world market?

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 08:03 AM
All that is just code for giving the government more money to waste. I'd rather put the government on a spending diet than taking more money from rich people or any other people.

reasonable idea + brick wall = this post ^^^^

EDIT: Hokey smokes. She makes a rather innocuous observation that businesses need some publicly-funded infrastructure and a stable society to succeed, and all-of-a-sudden she's Vlad ****ing Lenin? Does anybody ****ing listen anymore? <shakes head sadly>

sappstuf
9/23/2011, 08:25 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/308894_281969618480690_114517875225866_1144593_149 4322467_n.jpg

This makes sense to me.

If you didn't know anything about American tax law, you would think that companies don't pay taxes at all and are getting a free ride.

pphilfran
9/23/2011, 08:44 AM
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=366

Good stuff here...you can see effective tax rate at various AGI levels..a total of 142 million returns in 2008

47 million returns (33.2% of all returns) show no tax owed...109k returns over 100k showed no tax owed...
28 mill under 5%
36 million 5-10%
21 million 10-15%
7 million 15-20%
2 million 20-25%
less than a million above 25%

As far as corp taxes, Bush had the highest corp revenue in decades...honest...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/corptax-1.jpg

sappstuf
9/23/2011, 09:08 AM
I would just like to point out that if all the federal government was responsible for were roads, education, police and firemen as she points out, then the rich COULD pay for all of that.

We would also be a libertarian's wet dream..

Ton Loc
9/23/2011, 09:19 AM
reasonable idea + brick wall = this post ^^^^

EDIT: Hokey smokes. She makes a rather innocuous observation that businesses need some publicly-funded infrastructure and a stable society to succeed, and all-of-a-sudden she's Vlad ****ing Lenin? Does anybody ****ing listen anymore? <shakes head sadly>

You get out of here with your sense makin.

Seriously, I read it. Thought, hey she explained how owning a business works in a relatively simple turns.

Then I set the over/under before someone brings up Obama at 5 posts - by completing mis-interpreting the whole thing in their twisted wildly uninformed mind. I lose again. (I wish Badger could get a Vbookie listing on things like this.)

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 09:51 AM
**** by completing mis-interpreting the whole thing in their twisted wildly uninformed mind....

That does happen from time to time, by which I mean "always." :biggrin:

Fraggle145
9/23/2011, 10:08 AM
reasonable idea + brick wall = this post ^^^^

EDIT: Hokey smokes. She makes a rather innocuous observation that businesses need some publicly-funded infrastructure and a stable society to succeed, and all-of-a-sudden she's Vlad ****ing Lenin? Does anybody ****ing listen anymore? <shakes head sadly>

Kinda what I thought.

OklahomaTuba
9/23/2011, 10:15 AM
Best response to this crazy bitch i've seen.....

Is she f*cking insane?I gotta ask.
Its the taxes *I* pay as a small business owner, and as a private citizen, that funds the roads, the police, the army, and so on. I pay for this now. Right f*cking now.
And you don't think I built my goddamned business on my own? You don't think I am the only one who was willing to take a f*cking risk on my vision? You think that society as a whole contributed to my business growing and being successful?
So, in the deepest dark of the credit crunch, where was society with the capital to back the asset purchases I needed to fulfill orders when the banks wouldn't? The banks that are partially publicly owned, too big to fail, yet probably should?
What grew my business was the intense backbreaking labor I put into my business. The complex financial arrangements, and the risks *I* f*cking took. The danger to my families well being by literally risking every f*cking thing we had in order to pursue this, while this idiot and her fellow travelers were busy raping larger versions of businesses and denying their rightful owners their assets handing everything over to their buddies.
Lady, you have no business being in government. You have no business teaching. You have no f*cking clue what it takes to start, grow, run a business.
OMFG

Amen.

TitoMorelli
9/23/2011, 10:17 AM
I'll go you one better, Tuba:


“You built a factory out there? Good for you,” – “Built a factory” is a summary for a lot of work. Put up equity, designed a business, took risk to buy land, get permits, pay property taxes and use taxes and permit fees. Then, bought a bunch of equipment and had it installed …and paid sales taxes. Hired some employees and paid them a bunch of money and paid payroll taxes on top of that. Bought a bunch of raw materials from companies that paid a bunch of salaries and a bunch of taxes. Building a factory is a huge private investment that pays the public a lot of taxes for the right to be built.

“But I want to be clear: you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for.” – Between fuel taxes, license fees, tolls and various taxes on transportation related activities, the roads budget is smaller than the total tax take.

“You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate.” No, you did not educate them. You babysat them for 12 years. Then I hired them, taught them how to be responsible and show up for work, taught them how to communicate in clear sentences, taught them that there are rights and wrongs and (unlike with your schools) wrongs have consequences in the workplace. Then paid for extended education for my employees so they could continue to improve themselves and better add value to what we do around here.

“You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for.” Funny, my factory has 24/7 security guards because the last time it was broken into, the police did not even bother to take a report, they just said “call your insurance company”. As for fire? The closest fire department is 10 miles away. My insurance company requires that I have a full wet sprinkler system to qualify for insurance because there is no local fire protection.

“You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did.” Well, that is not exactly true. When the AFL-CIO tried to unionize my workforce, they staged three days of noisy protests outside my factory. The police forces just stood around and watched as the protesters intimidated my workers, vandalized their cars and destroyed my property.

You say “we” like the government and society are the same. They aren’t. My company and my community and you politicians are not “we”.

OklahomaTuba
9/23/2011, 10:18 AM
One thing is true, George Kaiser and the rest of Obama's cronies sure didn't get rich on their own.....
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fZsY7RzKc3c/TnDpuBNu_5I/AAAAAAAAARk/TMiysOAg-mM/s400/SolyndraObamaO.jpg

okie52
9/23/2011, 10:19 AM
reasonable idea + brick wall = this post ^^^^

EDIT: Hokey smokes. She makes a rather innocuous observation that businesses need some publicly-funded infrastructure and a stable society to succeed, and all-of-a-sudden she's Vlad ****ing Lenin? Does anybody ****ing listen anymore? <shakes head sadly>

She is stating what is already happening...but why would most read between the lines that she is inferring that the taxes need to be increased on corps and the rich as if they aren't already paying their fair share?

OklahomaTuba
9/23/2011, 10:21 AM
Ask Gibson Guitar or any of the small oilfield service companies in Louisiana about those "marauding bands".

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 11:19 AM
She is stating what is already happening...but why would most read between the lines that she is inferring that the taxes need to be increased on corps and the rich as if they aren't already paying their fair share?

I just took her reamrks as a reply to the view that all we need is lots of big business and the Government can shrivel up and to Gehenna. That may be a straw man view, of course, but there are those who seem to think that all we need to do is to trust our futures to the tender loving care Big Business and all will be well.

KantoSooner
9/23/2011, 11:19 AM
I would personally like to thank Elizabeth Warren for that statement. At least she is stating clearly and succinctly what she believes in and what, I believe, is the underlying political/economic philosophy of many in the Democratic Party: you can't EVER own much of anything because you came into this world owing the rest of us and you will never escape owing the rest of us. So relax, lay back and enjoy the ride, because NONE of whatever it is you do, be it business, art, athletics, ANYTHING is yours. You're part of a collective and can NEVER escape.
Thanks, Elizabeth.
In attacking collectivist thought, I sometimes lose sight of the fact that it is often more clearly damned by its supporters.

Ton Loc
9/23/2011, 11:55 AM
Best response to this crazy bitch i've seen.....

Its the taxes *I* pay as a small business owner, and as a private citizen, that funds the roads, the police, the army, and so on. I pay for this now. Right f*cking now.

Amen.

Funny, because this is exactley what she said (without the so-cleverly hidden curse words.)
Oh no, she said that you owe the country (that you were damn luck to be born in) a piece of the pie that helped provide.
She'd just like you to stop being such a giant whiney baby about it.

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 12:14 PM
n/m Definitely not good enough to post twice!

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 12:25 PM
I would personally like to thank Elizabeth Warren for that statement. At least she is stating clearly and succinctly what she believes in and what, I believe, is the underlying political/economic philosophy of many in the Democratic Party: you can't EVER own much of anything because you came into this world owing the rest of us and you will never escape owing the rest of us. So relax, lay back and enjoy the ride, because NONE of whatever it is you do, be it business, art, athletics, ANYTHING is yours. You're part of a collective and can NEVER escape.
Thanks, Elizabeth.
In attacking collectivist thought, I sometimes lose sight of the fact that it is often more clearly damned by its supporters.

On a board noted for gross overstatements and straw-man building, that's pretty good.

Why is it that anytime somebody challenges the myth of pure self-sufficiency, somebody starts whining about collectivism and socialism and communism and blah-blah-blah-ism. Even John Bloody Locke belived in the social compact. Save your bullets for the real bolsheviks and quit blasting away at the imaginary ones under your bed.

yermom
9/23/2011, 12:43 PM
so, out of curiosity, my small government friends, what is an acceptable amount of tax on income?

what government services do we actually need?

what in her statement implies that no one can ever actually accumulate wealth? i guess i missed where she says that taxes should be increased at all.

it seems there were a lot of rich people in this country before the Bush tax cuts or even under the New Deal tax rates

SCOUT
9/23/2011, 12:56 PM
so, out of curiosity, my small government friends, what is an acceptable amount of tax on income?

what government services do we actually need?

what in her statement implies that no one can ever actually accumulate wealth? i guess i missed where she says that taxes should be increased at all.

it seems there were a lot of rich people in this country before the Bush tax cuts or even under the New Deal tax rates

I would be in favor of a flat income tax in the 15% range. Now you tell me, how much is enough?

I don't read her statement to say that you can't accumulate wealth. The objection I have is her implication that the business owner isn't doing their part and that they should. For example, she says, "You moved your goods to market on roads the rest of us paid for." Really? The new factory owner didn't pay taxes prior? She goes on to say that the factory owner should pay it forward for the next generation. Those two taken together imply to me that the owner should start paying "their share."

pphilfran
9/23/2011, 01:01 PM
so, out of curiosity, my small government friends, what is an acceptable amount of tax on income?

what government services do we actually need?

what in her statement implies that no one can ever actually accumulate wealth? i guess i missed where she says that taxes should be increased at all.

it seems there were a lot of rich people in this country before the Bush tax cuts or even under the New Deal tax rates

Clinton's tax increase on income and Bush's tax cuts are far overrated in regards to revenue generation...

yermom
9/23/2011, 01:09 PM
I would be in favor of a flat income tax in the 15% range. Now you tell me, how much is enough?

I don't read her statement to say that you can't accumulate wealth. The objection I have is her implication that the business owner isn't doing their part and that they should. For example, she says, "You moved your goods to market on roads the rest of us paid for." Really? The new factory owner didn't pay taxes prior? She goes on to say that the factory owner should pay it forward for the next generation. Those two taken together imply to me that the owner should start paying "their share."

is she saying that they need to pay more or that they shouldn't be so indignant about paying at all?

SCOUT
9/23/2011, 01:11 PM
is she saying that they need to pay more or that they shouldn't be so indignant about paying at all?
Both in my opinion. What about my question?

yermom
9/23/2011, 01:19 PM
I would be in favor of a flat income tax in the 15% range. Now you tell me, how much is enough?

I don't read her statement to say that you can't accumulate wealth. The objection I have is her implication that the business owner isn't doing their part and that they should. For example, she says, "You moved your goods to market on roads the rest of us paid for." Really? The new factory owner didn't pay taxes prior? She goes on to say that the factory owner should pay it forward for the next generation. Those two taken together imply to me that the owner should start paying "their share."

i just doubt 15% is enough, but i also don't have a problem with progressive rates. if you need to increase taxes to take care of the bottom rung of society, why take money out of their pocket at the same time?

i think some of the statement comes out of the fact that most people that rail against taxes and government services forget what things are actually government services

Midtowner
9/23/2011, 01:51 PM
Y'all are of course ignoring the fact that someone building a factory in the U.S., most likely does so receiving numerous tax incentives, credits, TIF financing, etc. We're benefiting business with all kinds of corporate welfare, so yes, asking a little more from those earning millions does seem fair. They benefit from the public dole much more than your average welfare recipient.

pphilfran
9/23/2011, 02:01 PM
Y'all are of course ignoring the fact that someone building a factory in the U.S., most likely does so receiving numerous tax incentives, credits, TIF financing, etc. We're benefiting business with all kinds of corporate welfare, so yes, asking a little more from those earning millions does seem fair. They benefit from the public dole much more than your average welfare recipient.
I can't think of a Goodyear plant or expansion that hasn't had significant tax incentives...

I haven't gone back and looked but I would imagine that since 1978 the Lawton plant has received a hundred mill or so in tax incentive...for upwards of 5 - 10k jobs over the long term (plant and local job sources)...

At 5000 jobs that averages out to 20k per job....10000 jobs and it is 10k...

You can't blame the companies...hell, they have cities and states fighting over a new facility...

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 02:02 PM
“You built a factory out there? Good for you,” – “Built a factory” is a summary for a lot of work. Put up equity, designed a business, took risk to buy land, get permits, pay property taxes and use taxes and permit fees. Then, bought a bunch of equipment and had it installed …and paid sales taxes. Hired some employees and paid them a bunch of money and paid payroll taxes on top of that. Bought a bunch of raw materials from companies that paid a bunch of salaries and a bunch of taxes. Building a factory is a huge private investment that pays the public a lot of taxes for the right to be built.

“But I want to be clear: you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for.” – Between fuel taxes, license fees, tolls and various taxes on transportation related activities, the roads budget is smaller than the total tax take.

“You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate.” No, you did not educate them. You babysat them for 12 years. Then I hired them, taught them how to be responsible and show up for work, taught them how to communicate in clear sentences, taught them that there are rights and wrongs and (unlike with your schools) wrongs have consequences in the workplace. Then paid for extended education for my employees so they could continue to improve themselves and better add value to what we do around here.

“You were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for.” Funny, my factory has 24/7 security guards because the last time it was broken into, the police did not even bother to take a report, they just said “call your insurance company”. As for fire? The closest fire department is 10 miles away. My insurance company requires that I have a full wet sprinkler system to qualify for insurance because there is no local fire protection.

“You didn’t have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did.” Well, that is not exactly true. When the AFL-CIO tried to unionize my workforce, they staged three days of noisy protests outside my factory. The police forces just stood around and watched as the protesters intimidated my workers, vandalized their cars and destroyed my property.

You say “we” like the government and society are the same. They aren’t. My company and my community and you politicians are not “we”.

This is actually pretty good. Better than some knee-jerk yelp of "socialism!"

Midtowner
9/23/2011, 02:37 PM
I can't think of a Goodyear plant or expansion that hasn't had significant tax incentives...

I haven't gone back and looked but I would imagine that since 1978 the Lawton plant has received a hundred mill or so in tax incentive...for upwards of 5 - 10k jobs over the long term (plant and local job sources)...

At 5000 jobs that averages out to 20k per job....10000 jobs and it is 10k...

You can't blame the companies...hell, they have cities and states fighting over a new facility...

This is pretty much how things work. These Tea Party/Rightwing types think that all of these business owners are Hank Reardons. Really, we're dealing with a bunch of James Taggarts. And who wouldn't want to be a James Taggart? If you were in business and didn't take advantage of the free government money, your board of directors would probably be civilly liable for breaching their fiduciary duties to the company if they didn't replace you.

The folks who get screwed in this equation are the small businesses who aren't big enough to get in bed with enough politicians to get this favorable tax treatment. If I did try to make my own factory here in the U.S., making plastic dog ****, I probably wouldn't qualify for too many tax breaks, probably wouldn't be big enough to have cities fighting over me, etc.

So of course there are some problems, but most on this thread are tuned into rhetoric more than reality and don't really seem to grasp the issues. That's exactly what the boys and girls in D.C. want.

KantoSooner
9/23/2011, 02:58 PM
On a board noted for gross overstatements and straw-man building, that's pretty good.

Why is it that anytime somebody challenges the myth of pure self-sufficiency, somebody starts whining about collectivism and socialism and communism and blah-blah-blah-ism. Even John Bloody Locke belived in the social compact. Save your bullets for the real bolsheviks and quit blasting away at the imaginary ones under your bed.

I don't see much overstatement or venom in my original post. Is she not stating a general premise that any individual in our society is permanently beholden to the collective? On the basis of an inescapable 'original sin' of having been born here? John Stuart Mill felt it was kind of important to preserve some part of individualism sacrosanct from the claims of a broader society.
My point, if you are interested, is that of who holds primacy, the individual or society? I think it should be the former. Warren pretty clearly believes the latter.
But I'm not going to be a SOB about it. It's Friday, neither of us will settle this, c'mon over and have a beer.

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 03:32 PM
I don't see much overstatement or venom in my original post. Is she not stating a general premise that any individual in our society is permanently beholden to the collective? On the basis of an inescapable 'original sin' of having been born here? John Stuart Mill felt it was kind of important to preserve some part of individualism sacrosanct from the claims of a broader society.
My point, if you are interested, is that of who holds primacy, the individual or society? I think it should be the former. Warren pretty clearly believes the latter.
But I'm not going to be a SOB about it. It's Friday, neither of us will settle this, c'mon over and have a beer.
If I had thought she went as far as actually implying that the collective holds primacy over the individual I would have barked at her. But since I didn't read her that way, I just reckoned you must be absolutely totally completeley 100% WRONG WRONG WRONG, as is everyone who is not me. So I got unduly snarky. No harm intended; I'm sure I have agreed with many of your posts. If you are within 15-minutes' walking distance of Camp & Poydras in New Orleans, I'll be right over and buy the first round. :)

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 03:35 PM
This is pretty much how things work. These Tea Party/Rightwing types think that all of these business owners are Hank Reardons. Really, we're dealing with a bunch of James Taggarts. And who wouldn't want to be a James Taggart? If you were in business and didn't take advantage of the free government money, your board of directors would probably be civilly liable for breaching their fiduciary duties to the company if they didn't replace you.

The folks who get screwed in this equation are the small businesses who aren't big enough to get in bed with enough politicians to get this favorable tax treatment. If I did try to make my own factory here in the U.S., making plastic dog ****, I probably wouldn't qualify for too many tax breaks, probably wouldn't be big enough to have cities fighting over me, etc.

So of course there are some problems, but most on this thread are tuned into rhetoric more than reality and don't really seem to grasp the issues. That's exactly what the boys and girls in D.C. want.

"Crony capitalism" I believe Bourbon St called it the other day.

Curly Bill
9/23/2011, 03:36 PM
reasonable idea + brick wall = this post ^^^^

EDIT: Hokey smokes. She makes a rather innocuous observation that businesses need some publicly-funded infrastructure and a stable society to succeed, and all-of-a-sudden she's Vlad ****ing Lenin? Does anybody ****ing listen anymore? <shakes head sadly>

You should wring your hands harder, you'll feel better. <shakes head sadly>

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 03:41 PM
You should wring your hands harder, you'll feel better. <shakes head sadly>

Oh shut up, you poop head. (Sorry, that's the best I can do on a Friday afternoon. :biggrin: )

Curly Bill
9/23/2011, 03:44 PM
Oh shut up, you poop head. (Sorry, that's the best I can do on a Friday afternoon. :biggrin: )

This is a better reply than the one you had to my other post. Way less melodramatic.

Curly Bill
9/23/2011, 03:47 PM
...and you lefties complaining about knee-jerk responses from the right... Sometimes it's just that simple, and a quick to the point response is what's called for. There's no secret what this ladies intents are, or what she'd like this country to be. If anyone did call her a socialist, and I didn't really notice if someone used that term or not, while it might be a "knee-jerk" response, it'd also be the correct response. Sometimes it doesn't take writing a thesis to nail what is correct.

KantoSooner
9/23/2011, 04:01 PM
If I had thought she went as far as actually implying that the collective holds primacy over the individual I would have barked at her. But since I didn't read her that way, I just reckoned you must be absolutely totally completeley 100% WRONG WRONG WRONG, as is everyone who is not me. So I got unduly snarky. No harm intended; I'm sure I have agreed with many of your posts. If you are within 15-minutes' walking distance of Camp & Poydras in New Orleans, I'll be right over and buy the first round. :)

Not right now. And may I say, 'Damn You!' for being in NO on a Friday night when I'm not? But PM me your contacts, I'll be down there in the next month or so and then I'll buy the oysters AND the beers.
hell, if we're not too full, we'll get a bag of cracklings and have a big time.

OutlandTrophy
9/23/2011, 04:39 PM
If nobody in this country got rich on their own, do people become poor on their own?

According to a few on here and this lady, it takes the collective to make a person rich, does it take that same collective to make someone poor?

diverdog
9/24/2011, 10:41 AM
I can't think of a Goodyear plant or expansion that hasn't had significant tax incentives...

I haven't gone back and looked but I would imagine that since 1978 the Lawton plant has received a hundred mill or so in tax incentive...for upwards of 5 - 10k jobs over the long term (plant and local job sources)...

At 5000 jobs that averages out to 20k per job....10000 jobs and it is 10k...

You can't blame the companies...hell, they have cities and states fighting over a new facility...

Phil:

You and I have talked about this a million times. The tax code is a complete mess.

For someone to say that they made a fortune without taxpayer help would be a huge stretch. The tax code allows for all sorts of deductions and write offs. Depreciation, employment expense, entertainment, shifting of profits offshore, accelerated deprecation, R&D write offs, losses, depletion deductions, bonus depreciation, business gifts, section 179 deductions, advertising, automobile expense, investment credits, new market tax credits, rent, start up cost, lifo method of inventory, oil and gas manufacturing deduction, home office deduction, telephone expense, meals, charity.......hell most corporations view their tax offices as profit centers. At almost every level of business there is something in the tax code that allows businesses to reduce their tax burden. So that means the burden is shifted to someone else.

I get why these write offs are in place but why do I need to underwrite some lawyers car or some businessman's fishing boat? Because of special loophole many of the cruise lines do not pay a dime in US taxes. GE shifts its profits overseas to reduce its tax burden in the US through slick accounting procedures.

I do not think corporation tax rates need to go up but the damn loopholes need to be closed. What most people don't get is that we are underwriting businesses to do their business. I would think true libertarians would believe that a company should stand on its own and not depend on the state to support it. In other words if you need a piece of equipment buy it but you do not get to write it off.

So I would be fine with a flat tax with no write offs.

pphilfran
9/24/2011, 11:28 AM
Yep, we are usually in agreement, DD...

Our convoluted tax laws will get even more convoluted after our DC leadership are done with the new standards....

TitoMorelli
9/24/2011, 12:26 PM
What this matter is really about is a person who has had the good fortune (?) to live within the walls of her ultra-liberal ivory tower academic environment in an ultra-liberal state for practically her entire professional life, and who is now running to win her party's nomination in order to replace the RINO that her state elected in early 2010. She is saying what she knows the majority of her constituency wants to hear. She may actually believe it. In any case I'd bet that she's paid far more than almost everyone on this board, and works just as hard as those on here to pay far less at tax time.

diverdog
9/24/2011, 04:09 PM
What this matter is really about is a person who has had the good fortune (?) to live within the walls of her ultra-liberal ivory tower academic environment in an ultra-liberal state for practically her entire professional life, and who is now running to win her party's nomination in order to replace the RINO that her state elected in early 2010. She is saying what she knows the majority of her constituency wants to hear. She may actually believe it. In any case I'd bet that she's paid far more than almost everyone on this board, and works just as hard as those on here to pay far less at tax time.

Believe it or not I would like see Brown win again.

OutlandTrophy
9/24/2011, 04:27 PM
Phil:

You and I have talked about this a million times. The tax code is a complete mess.

For someone to say that they made a fortune without taxpayer help would be a huge stretch. The tax code allows for all sorts of deductions and write offs. Depreciation, employment expense, entertainment, shifting of profits offshore, accelerated deprecation, R&D write offs, losses, depletion deductions, bonus depreciation, business gifts, section 179 deductions, advertising, automobile expense, investment credits, new market tax credits, rent, start up cost, lifo method of inventory, oil and gas manufacturing deduction, home office deduction, telephone expense, meals, charity.......hell most corporations view their tax offices as profit centers. At almost every level of business there is something in the tax code that allows businesses to reduce their tax burden. So that means the burden is shifted to someone else.

I get why these write offs are in place but why do I need to underwrite some lawyers car or some businessman's fishing boat? Because of special loophole many of the cruise lines do not pay a dime in US taxes. GE shifts its profits overseas to reduce its tax burden in the US through slick accounting procedures.

I do not think corporation tax rates need to go up but the damn loopholes need to be closed. What most people don't get is that we are underwriting businesses to do their business. I would think true libertarians would believe that a company should stand on its own and not depend on the state to support it. In other words if you need a piece of equipment buy it but you do not get to write it off.

So I would be fine with a flat tax with no write offs.

amen

soonercruiser
9/25/2011, 09:23 PM
This really depends on what kind of deal a factory or business owner gets. Walmart is notorious for getting waivers on property taxes and getting the rest of us to pick up their cost. In 2006 the US taxpayer picked up almost $100 billion dollars in direct and indirect subsidies to businesses. This is something that both the right and left have screamed about for years.

A few stats for you guys.

The riches 400 Americans have more net worth than the GDP of Canada.
The top 20% of all households own more than 87% of all assets in this country.One in four Americans have a net worth of zero or less.

Wow, Diver!
The class envy in your post smells all the way to Oklahoma!
When the Walmarts and other business make arrangements with cities to build, and get tax breaks, that is all given freely by the local governments as an incentive to the businesses to build and bring their jobs to town. This happens many times a year in "business friendly" states.

You really are showing your LW stripes!

diverdog
9/25/2011, 10:18 PM
Wow, Diver!
The class envy in your post smells all the way to Oklahoma!
When the Walmarts and other business make arrangements with cities to build, and get tax breaks, that is all given freely by the local governments as an incentive to the businesses to build and bring their jobs to town. This happens many times a year in "business friendly" states.

You really are showing your LW stripes!

No you are showing I worked for government all my life stripes. Many of those arrangements come at a huge cost to taxpayers. Why should I have to pay higher taxes to support a local Walmart store or a new residential development, etc? Riddle me that one batman. I have no problem with people running/starting businesses. What I have a problem with is a tax code that favors one group over another. If you want to have a business then leave me out of it.

TitoMorelli
9/25/2011, 10:41 PM
OT question for any of you: do you feel that cities or states sweetening the deal in order to bring in other companies is on a par with the federal government granting waivers, favors, or other goodies to benefit some companies or industries over others? Can you berate Wal-Mart and still defend Solyndra, for example, or vice versa?

OutlandTrophy
9/26/2011, 08:28 AM
No you are showing I worked for government all my life stripes. Many of those arrangements come at a huge cost to taxpayers. Why should I have to pay higher taxes to support a local Walmart store or a new residential development, etc? Riddle me that one batman.

Because Wal-Mart through property taxes, sales taxes and the spending power of their employees pay back whatever the local government fronted them and then some. Right?

Midtowner
9/26/2011, 10:48 AM
the spending power of their employees

Actually, Wal-Mart has been known to have workshops for teaching their employees to apply for welfare benefits, so not only are we subsidizing Wallyworld's plant operations, we're also subsidizing their payroll through our welfare system. Neat, huh?

Wal-Marts are good for small towns only in that if the town doesn't have one, folks are going to drive to the town down the highway that does to spend their money. That gives Wal-Mart some leverage. It's pretty much the same dilemma for state governments and larger municipalities competing for corporate headquarters and manufacturing plants.

diverdog
9/26/2011, 11:00 AM
Because Wal-Mart through property taxes, sales taxes and the spending power of their employees pay back whatever the local government fronted them and then some. Right?

We don't have sales tax in my state and Walmart does not pay that anyway. As far as property taxes I have no idea why a town would give them a break.

OutlandTrophy
9/26/2011, 11:05 AM
an empty lot doesn't raise near as many dollars from property taxes as a million dollar building sitting on the same lot does.

No **** Wal Mart doesn't pay sales taxes, their customers do and Wal Mart collects those taxes for the local gov't.

Midtowner
9/26/2011, 12:54 PM
And before Wal-Mart came, people got their doohickeys elsewhere and probably paid more sales taxes to boot.

Retailers don't create wealth, they just take it from other retailers. Wal-Mart creates a few $8.00 jobs, but at the expense of your local clothiers, furniture stores, grocery stores, etc. In rural Oklahoma, communities want Wal-Mart in their city rather than the city 5 miles down the highway, because both burgs are going to lose their clothiers, furniture stores, grocery stores, etc., it's only a question of who is going to live and who is going to die.

I guess I'm jealous. I doubt any community has ever laid out tax incentives to attract law offices.

pphilfran
9/26/2011, 01:24 PM
I guess I'm jealous. I doubt any community has ever laid out tax incentives to attract law offices.

lol

pphilfran
9/26/2011, 01:28 PM
Everybody down here wants a Target...they are supposed to move into a new strip mall that might be built on the west side of town...the city is bucking up on the improvements that the builder wants the city to supply...most of the townfolk are pizzed...

We already have a 12 block area near downtown being rebuilt with a strip mall and hotel/convention center...why pour more money into something else that will only detract from the downtown plan...

Ton Loc
9/26/2011, 04:33 PM
Everybody down here wants a Target...they are supposed to move into a new strip mall that might be built on the west side of town...the city is bucking up on the improvements that the builder wants the city to supply...most of the townfolk are pizzed...

We already have a 12 block area near downtown being rebuilt with a strip mall and hotel/convention center...why pour more money into something else that will only detract from the downtown plan...

Just like Continental moving to downtown OKC, or us getting the Thunder. BTW, I wonder if the Thunder is going to give us back any money during the lockout since we're losing out on all those home games. (I doubt it)

TitoMorelli
9/26/2011, 04:42 PM
I guess I'm jealous. I doubt any community has ever laid out tax incentives to attract law offices.

I thought the best way to attract law offices is to toss chum over the side of the boat.

diverdog
9/26/2011, 09:35 PM
I thought the best way to attract law offices is to toss chum over the side of the boat.

Now you are giving sharks a bad name.

Midtowner
9/27/2011, 10:30 AM
Just like Continental moving to downtown OKC, or us getting the Thunder. BTW, I wonder if the Thunder is going to give us back any money during the lockout since we're losing out on all those home games. (I doubt it)

Not a chance. And in 15 years, if we haven't built a new arena, they're headed elsewhere.

cleller
9/29/2011, 09:16 PM
Isn't the successful person she is talking about also one of "the rest of us" that is paying for everything?
Except, this successful person probably does not expect the government to give him money.

Obviously, she is a very smart and accomplished woman, who truly believes the government can and should provide/care for the population to some degree.
You can get an idea of her style by watching her appearance on the John Stewart show.

http://lincmad.blogspot.com/2009/04/tarp-cop-on-daily-show.html

soonercruiser
9/30/2011, 12:01 AM
No you are showing I worked for government all my life stripes. Many of those arrangements come at a huge cost to taxpayers. Why should I have to pay higher taxes to support a local Walmart store or a new residential development, etc? Riddle me that one batman. I have no problem with people running/starting businesses. What I have a problem with is a tax code that favors one group over another. If you want to have a business then leave me out of it.

Tax code "favors".....????
I believe that almost 50% of Americans pay no income tax whatsoever.
That is a fact.
You got any problem with that favoritism?

Again....please remind Buffet he owes us $1 Billion.
His secretary owes us nothing more!

soonercruiser
9/30/2011, 12:07 AM
I would personally like to thank Elizabeth Warren for that statement. At least she is stating clearly and succinctly what she believes in and what, I believe, is the underlying political/economic philosophy of many in the Democratic Party: you can't EVER own much of anything because you came into this world owing the rest of us and you will never escape owing the rest of us. So relax, lay back and enjoy the ride, because NONE of whatever it is you do, be it business, art, athletics, ANYTHING is yours. You're part of a collective and can NEVER escape.
Thanks, Elizabeth.
In attacking collectivist thought, I sometimes lose sight of the fact that it is often more clearly damned by its supporters.

THIS ^^^^^ :victorious:

soonercruiser
9/30/2011, 12:11 AM
Y'all are of course ignoring the fact that someone building a factory in the U.S., most likely does so receiving numerous tax incentives, credits, TIF financing, etc. We're benefiting business with all kinds of corporate welfare, so yes, asking a little more from those earning millions does seem fair. They benefit from the public dole much more than your average welfare recipient.

And, I think that all lawyers owe society a lot of free legal advice and service.
Let's say........40%!

soonercruiser
9/30/2011, 12:16 AM
But, all in all, a good discussion guys!
:victorious:

Midtowner
9/30/2011, 07:01 AM
And, I think that all lawyers owe society a lot of free legal advice and service.
Let's say........40%!

Nice non sequitur. FWIW, I and a lot of lawyers give plenty of pro bono service. I work with Oklahoma Lawyers for Children representing kids, mostly against their abusive/drug-addled parents. What do you do to give back?

diverdog
9/30/2011, 07:03 AM
Nice non sequitur. FWIW, I and a lot of lawyers give plenty of pro bono service. I work with Oklahoma Lawyers for Children representing kids, mostly against their abusive/drug-addled parents. What do you do to give back?

When I worked on environmental causes we got tons of pro bono services. It would be in the hundreds of thousands of dollars range.

BU BEAR
9/30/2011, 04:26 PM
Where did I sign this "social contract?" Sounds like to me the left has invented another word for something that exists only in their mind.

soonercruiser
9/30/2011, 09:31 PM
Nice non sequitur. FWIW, I and a lot of lawyers give plenty of pro bono service. I work with Oklahoma Lawyers for Children representing kids, mostly against their abusive/drug-addled parents. What do you do to give back?

Good for you Midtown! I know a few local lawyers who also do.

The first 12 years I was at the OUHSC, I gave Monday to coordinating, supervising, and supplying the day's free clinic.
(non-paid coordinator-director)
Last two years I've cut back at OU to working only 2 days a week, and the other 3 days are now filled with our expansion to 3 nights a week of free clinic.
Never had much time to do it in the military years.
But, it's almost too much now. Looking for some relief, with a new paid Director to expand into daytime clinics.

AlboSooner
10/3/2011, 11:04 AM
poor rich people :(

TUSooner
10/3/2011, 12:11 PM
Where did I sign this "social contract?" Sounds like to me the left has invented another word for something that exists only in their mind.

Do you live alone in the woods and drink rain and kill everything you eat with tools you fashioned by hand? If not you're in a "social contract." And have you heard of the US Constitution? Ever read it? ANY of it? It's all about a "social contract." And if you can't see that, then you are one terribly stupid @#$&*(&^%$% !

yermom
10/3/2011, 12:14 PM
where can i read all the unwritten rules in this contract?

TUSooner
10/3/2011, 12:33 PM
where can i read all the unwritten rules in this contract?

Ah so. The terms are highly debatable.

Midtowner
10/3/2011, 02:15 PM
Good for you Midtown! I know a few local lawyers who also do.

Well thank you and thank you for your service. If you'll ease up on slandering my profession, I'll not make sweeping generalizations about government employees.

So were you just being a blatant troll or what did you mean by suggesting that all lawyers should offer 40% of their time as pro bono? And how on Earth does that fit into the conversation here? Is it probably true that no one in this country got rich on their own? It's actually demonstrably true. Businesses, even mine, have all kinds of rules and regulations to protect us, business owners too. For example, my firm is a PLLC. That means that if I have an associate who completely botches a case and gets me sued for more than my insurance carrier will pay, that former client will probably not be able to go after me personally because of the LLC. I'm also protected by a court system which I can use to make people pay me even when they don't want to. I have police forces which ensure that if a disgruntled opposing party comes after me, very bad things will happen to them. Heck... my job basically involves people paying me to facilitate their access to all those government provided services in both the executive (administrative law) and judicial branches to help them obtain wealth or protect it.

We have such a huge and diverse set of rules and regulations to help folks get and keep wealth that we have to have an entire professional class of individuals (lawyers) to help them navigate it.

pphilfran
10/3/2011, 02:18 PM
Bloodsucking lawyers... :)

Midtowner
10/3/2011, 02:43 PM
Bloodsucking lawyers... :)

You can't have a civilized society without us. Really though, if you're a businessman who thinks he did it on his own, you've probably done something illegal, or you just don't understand the vast many ways you've been helped along the way by the system.

REDREX
10/3/2011, 03:10 PM
You can't have a civilized society without us. Really though, if you're a businessman who thinks he did it on his own, you've probably done something illegal, or you just don't understand the vast many ways you've been helped along the way by the system.-- I am a businessman that made it without doing anything illegal----I went to Law School to make it easier to deal with arrogant Lawyers along the way

Midtowner
10/3/2011, 03:34 PM
-- I am a businessman that made it without doing anything illegal----I went to Law School to make it easier to deal with arrogant Lawyers along the way

You didn't make it by yourself. You are lucky to live in a place with electricity, water, laws and court systems not riddled with corruption. Are there a lot of startups such as yours succeeding right now in the Congo? A true libertarian paradise.

REDREX
10/3/2011, 03:41 PM
You didn't make it by yourself. You are lucky to live in a place with electricity, water, laws and court systems not riddled with corruption. Are there a lot of startups such as yours succeeding right now in the Congo? A true libertarian paradise.----Like my Dad said-- "If you have one Lawyer in town he goes broke--But if you have two in town they both get rich"---------And you know it is funny we do a lot of business in third world countries such as Indonesia ,Uganda, Nigeria and Bandgladesh

Midtowner
10/3/2011, 03:57 PM
----Like my Dad said-- "If you have one Lawyer in town he goes broke--But if you have two in town they both get rich"

Because people are just killing each other or exacting their own justice when they disagree instead of going to court. Which is better do you think?

And you may do business in Nigeria, but I'm assuming you haven't decided to relocate there and I'll bet you don't have too many serious competitors starting up there. Why do you think that is?

TUSooner
10/3/2011, 04:00 PM
----Like my Dad said-- "If you have one Lawyer in town he goes broke--But if you have two in town they both get rich"---------And you know it is funny we do a lot of business in third world countries such as Indonesia ,Uganda, Nigeria and Bandgladesh

Even in a 3rd world "libertarian paradise" (not my words, mind you :biggrin: ), you probably either enjoy the protection of stable laws and court systems, or you bribe corrupt officials. No?

Midtowner
10/3/2011, 04:02 PM
Even in a 3rd world "libertarian paradise" (not my words, mind you :biggrin: ), you probably either enjoy the protection of stable laws and court systems, or you bribe corrupt officials. No?

Certainly, unless the person stealing from you also pays the larger bribe. In the United States, even if you're a Fortune 500 company, if you harm ordinary folks, those folks can lawyer up and make you pay. What do you think would happen in Somalia if you sued the local warlord for not respecting your civil liberties or for taking your goat without compensating you?

You're not really intimating that folks have the same opportunity for success in Somalia or Bangladesh as they would in the U.S., are you?

REDREX
10/3/2011, 04:03 PM
Because people are just killing each other or exacting their own justice when they disagree instead of going to court. Which is better do you think?

And you may do business in Nigeria, but I'm assuming you haven't decided to relocate there and I'll bet you don't have too many serious competitors starting up there. Why do you think that is?---Whats your point ?---Or do you have one?----Have you ever done any business outside of the US?

Midtowner
10/3/2011, 04:07 PM
---Whats your point ?---Or do you have one?----Have you ever done any business outside of the US?

Again, you're slandering my profession without an accurate basis and using a stupid misguided saying to do it. If there are two lawyers getting rich, it's because folks are settling their grievances through the legal system rather than resorting to violence--the only other real alternative. Don't be so obtuse.

REDREX
10/3/2011, 04:12 PM
Again, you're slandering my profession without an accurate basis and using a stupid misguided saying to do it. If there are two lawyers getting rich, it's because folks are settling their grievances through the legal system rather than resorting to violence--the only other real alternative. Don't be so obtuse.---Keep in mind I have the same degree you have---- I am not the one talking about subjects that they have no experience in----Like doing business outside this Country

Midtowner
10/3/2011, 04:44 PM
---Keep in mind I have the same degree you have---- I am not the one talking about subjects that they have no experience in----Like doing business outside this Country

Oh? How much trial experience do you have? And how many other ways can you not respond to any of the points I've made?

BU BEAR
10/3/2011, 05:04 PM
Do you live alone in the woods and drink rain and kill everything you eat with tools you fashioned by hand? If not you're in a "social contract." And have you heard of the US Constitution? Ever read it? ANY of it? It's all about a "social contract." And if you can't see that, then you are one terribly stupid @#$&*(&^%$% !

Yes. I am so stupid that I can tell you that the Constitution is not a social contract outlining what duties are owed to certain strata of society by other social strata; but rather is a document outlining the relationship between the Government and the Governed. And unless you think that equal protection does not really mean equal protection, then you should not think that the property of the wealthy is more worthy of confiscation than you should think that the liberty of the poor is more worthy to be infringed upon. In Star Wars parlance, the Constitution is not the Social Contract you are looking for.

For there to be a contract, the parties need to agree on the material terms of the contract. Something tells me that the different social strata have not agreed to any material terms, nor have the individuals who live in this country. You and I are similarly situated in terms of lots of bills coming due from school and limited economic opportunity. Yet, you deem that people (particularly those with high incomes) owe you something. I do not deem to be owed anything by anyone who has been more or less successful than I. So, if you and I--who are similarly situated--cannot agree on what we want out of this "Social Contract," then we can hold out no hope that people from disparate situations will agree on the material terms of the "Social Contract." Because the parties will not agree on the material terms, there can be no contract--Social or Otherwise.

The term "Social Contract" was just a term made up by some leftist who was tired of getting his head handed to him on the merits. It does not exist.

47straight
10/3/2011, 05:08 PM
Self-help is much preferable to litigation if you can pull it off/get away with it.

BU BEAR
10/3/2011, 05:15 PM
Self-help is much preferable to litigation if you can pull it off/get away with it.

Heh! If it were not likely a violation of the Rules of Professional Conduct, I would put this quote in my office above a picture of The Duke shooting his pistols.