Former Tulsa linebacker (20505-09) dies in non-sanctioned church boxing event

[badger]

This is tragic, he was only 24, but also a really bad situation since this apparently wasn't even a sanctioned boxing event.

Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/article.aspx?subjectid=231&articleid=20110922_231_0_Frenvr671780)

Details are still emerging, but thoughts and prayers with our fellow Oklahomans. :(

[stoops the eternal pimp]

To each their own, but I don't understand a church having a fight night.

[badger]

To each their own, but I don't understand a church having a fight night.

Especially a non-sanctioned one! Something tells me that GUTS Church (yes, they are the Tulsa church that has that scare-the-hell-outta-you haunted house on Halloween) is going to get in massive trouble for this, not only because someone died, but apparently because they've had boxing matches before that haven't been sanctioned, either :(

[sooneredaco]

I may get hammered for saying this, but oh well, that's what message boards are for right?

Guts church, which is here in Tulsa is known for doing some really off the wall stuff all in the name of "Christianity" or "Religion". It comes as no surprise to me that something has gone tragically wrong. This is extremely sad and it puts such a bad light on something that should be a positive. Really really sad.

[badger]

They have some good volunteerism among their members, but yeah, for the most part, they're known as Tulsa's non-denominational, non-traditional, mega church... at least that's the impression I've gotten from my short time up here.

[OhU1]

Guts Church. Sounds like a "full gospel", "real men love Jesus" kind of thang. Do they have the team of muscle headed steroid guys tearing up phone books and blowing up water bottles and then preaching about how it's cool to love Jesus?

[sooneredaco]

I have no doubt they have some really genuine good people there. Heck most of them no doubt are just trying to do some good. But as an organization they have a tendency to just want to shock people and therefore do things that are really on the edge. This type of event is completely uncalled for and has caused a good young man his life. The people responsible for this are going to get thier a$$es handed to them. That oughta "scare the hell out them"

[SoonerLaw09]

Guts Church. Sounds like a "full gospel", "real men love Jesus" kind of thang. Do they have the team of muscle headed steroid guys tearing up phone books and blowing up water bottles and then preaching about how it's cool to love Jesus?

Looks like some kind of odd conglomeration of Pentecostal and Emerging church. Nevah hoid of it.

[SoonerLaw09]

Especially a non-sanctioned one! Something tells me that GUTS Church (yes, they are the Tulsa church that has that scare-the-hell-outta-you haunted house on Halloween) is going to get in massive trouble for this, not only because someone died, but apparently because they've had boxing matches before that haven't been sanctioned, either :(

They are gonna get hammered by the OK Boxing Commission.

[badger]

Guts Church. Sounds like a "full gospel", "real men love Jesus" kind of thang. Do they have the team of muscle headed steroid guys tearing up phone books and blowing up water bottles and then preaching about how it's cool to love Jesus?

No idea, but I am pretty sure they have a motorcycle group.

[8timechamps]

Does a boxing event have to be sanctioned? Is it against the law to hold an unsanctioned event?

I always thought that being sanctioned just meant that it was a "recognized" event (for scoring, etc.). I guess I didn't realize there was some kind of legal blowback for unsanctioned events.

[badger]

From the linked article:


Joe Miller, executive director of the Oklahoma State Athletic Commission, said he spoke with USA Boxing (the sanctioning body of all amateur boxing events in Oklahoma) and said that group had no knowledge of the fight card.

Miller spent Thursday morning investigating the event.

“Once I gather all of the information, I’ll be turning it over to the state attorney general’s office, who will in turn turn it over to probably the Tulsa County District Attorney’s office. ... It is a violation of Title 3A of the Oklahoma codes.”

That code regulates amateur boxing events in Oklahoma. USA Boxing is the only organization the Oklahoma State Athletic Commission allows to sanction amateur events and has guidelines that govern them.

Sanctioned events require a pre-bout physical, a doctor ringside and an ambulance on site.

If the church can argue that it wasn't a real boxing event and just a novelty event that was like boxing, perhaps there would be some leeway. I don't know what this was. It sounded an awful lot like an amateur boxing event.

[sooneredaco]

Does a boxing event have to be sanctioned? Is it against the law to hold an unsanctioned event?

I always thought that being sanctioned just meant that it was a "recognized" event (for scoring, etc.). I guess I didn't realize there was some kind of legal blowback for unsanctioned events.

I would think that if you market it as a boxing match, if there is any kind of fee to participate or view the event, any kind of prize etc... there would be some restricitons or guidelines that would have to be followed. Especially if it's something that's open to the public.

[Breadburner]

That place is a joke....

[8timechamps]

I would think that if you market it as a boxing match, if there is any kind of fee to participate or view the event, any kind of prize etc... there would be some restricitons or guidelines that would have to be followed. Especially if it's something that's open to the public.

Makes sense, but is there some severe legal action that the church faces because a death occurred at an unsanctioned event? Seems like they'll be in a bad position either way.

[sooneredaco]

That place is a joke....

In a few words you summed up what I attempted to say in one long paragraph

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I don't know much about the church except i've had some students go there and have been to their Nightmare...The dude was 24 years old, so I think the responsibility falls on him..But I just can't see how letting my church members fight it out would ever make Jesus happy.

[Monster Zero]

The place has some giant billboards and seems to be populated by pseudobikers. Their public face has a lot about "guts" and "serving the community". Their big high holy day seems to be halloween, 'cause you hear more about their spook house than you ever hear from them about Jesus. "Scare the hell out of you", y'know...

Now a guy gets killed in a staged fight. If it's true that they've had unsanctioned fights there before, somebody's gonna do time. Somebody's gonna be out of a load of money either way. Won't bring the young man back, though.

[northspeter]

this was there 6th fight night... they do charge to view the event somewhere between 5 and 15 bucksa person... it's a fund raiser of some sorts... and the whole point of sanctioning is to cover your @ss legally in case of something like this occuring... the problem is, it costs money to get an event sanctioned and you have to carry insurance to cover the participants... which would cut into any profit or "fund raising" they would get from such events...

[JohnnyMack]

Guts church has always seemed like such a scam. I hope they get prosecuted by the DA and have their balls sued off by the Clinckscale family.

[Mississippi Sooner]

If this was the sixth time they've held one of these, then it sounds like the state athletic commission should have jumped in way before now.

[Monster Zero]

this was there 6th fight night... they do charge to view the event somewhere between 5 and 15 bucksa person... it's a fund raiser of some sorts... and the whole point of sanctioning is to cover your @ss legally in case of something like this occuring... the problem is, it costs money to get an event sanctioned and you have to carry insurance to cover the participants... which would cut into any profit or "fund raising" they would get from such events...

Yeah, now that you bring it up it's reasonable to assume they didn't have any insurance because a sanctioning body would have required insurance, right? Along with medical personnel and an ambulance.

Somebody's going to prison, and somebody's gonna be broke. Somebody else is gonna be having nightmares the rest of his life. Ironic, isn't it, seeing how this place makes so much out of their nightmare experience?

Guts Church is gonna have a new owner too, which is probably a good thing.

[8timechamps]

Yeah, now that you bring it up it's reasonable to assume they didn't have any insurance because a sanctioning body would have required insurance, right? Along with medical personnel and an ambulance.

Somebody's going to prison, and somebody's gonna be broke. Somebody else is gonna be having nightmares the rest of his life. Ironic, isn't it, seeing how this place makes so much out of their nightmare experience?

Guts Church is gonna have a new owner too, which is probably a good thing.

That was kinda the point of my original question about getting an event sanctioned. Do insurance companies not cover these kind of events if their not sanctioned? I can't really see a criminal case, unless the guy that killed the guy did it in some malicious manner. Civil case, that's a different story.

[northspeter]

from what i understand, clinkscale didnt die from injuries suffered during his bout... he had a pre-existing medical conditioned that flared following the fight... some sort of heart or lung condition i think... which is something that would be checked during pre-fight physicals for a sanctioned event..

[Monster Zero]

That was kinda the point of my original question about getting an event sanctioned. Do insurance companies not cover these kind of events if their not sanctioned? I can't really see a criminal case, unless the guy that killed the guy did it in some malicious manner. Civil case, that's a different story.

Actually the other guy in the ring might be up for some criminal charge but I'm not sure what. He was just the other guy who got duped into a staged fight - and that's all it was, nothing more than just a staged fight. Whoever organized and staged it, I think criminal negligence at least, maybe manslaughter - but what do I know I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last nite.

There's gotta be someone on the boards who actually knows something about this kinda stuff, 'cause I dont... but if I had to bet - whoever the wise-*** is who's been putting these things on all this time is in serious trouble, in both criminal and civil court.

[northspeter]

bill scheer is the pastor/ceo... the participants do sign a waiver before they are allowed to fight... but without sanctioning the waiver really doesn't mean much... looks to me like this will all fall on the church and the pastor... don't see any way the fighter would be liable for anything... both fighters were really victims in this case... and like i said, from what i gather, he didnt die from injuries in the fight, it was more likely do to a pre-existing condition...

[BoomerJ]

This is a very sad story. I'm all for reaching out to all people, bikers, etc. However, some things like churches and boxing just don't mix.

[Monster Zero]

Would the problem with the pre-existing condition have flared up on him if he hadn't gotten into a staged fight?

No disrespect, just axin'...

[northspeter]

Would the problem with the pre-existing condition have flared up on him if he hadn't gotten into a staged fight?

No disrespect, just axin'...

who knows?? that's why the church and or bill scheer would be liable... cuz if it were a sanctioned bout he would've been required to have a prefight physical, maybe it gets seen and they pull him from the fight... maybe it doesnt... but even then, with sanctioning there would be 2 physicians ringside and an ambulance on site... maybe that helps, maybe not... again that's why you sanction... to cover your @ss just in case....

[sooneredaco]

Even if a waiver was signed, it's worth about as much as the piece of paper it's written on. Especially considering that "church" was profiting errrrr.... "fundraising" from this. Whatever happened to car washes and bake sales?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

This is a very sad story. I'm all for reaching out to all people, bikers, etc. However, some things like churches and boxing just don't mix.

I still can't figure out how they thought this was a good idea

[badger]

If it was their sixth one, they must have had no problems before, had fun before, made money off the fundraiser before, etc. etc.

All fun and games till someone gets hurt or worse :(

Even if the family decides against pressing charges against GUTS, I hope Oklahoma disallows future boxing events and this brings to light that this isn't allowed in this state if any other organizations out there are considering having similar events.

[toast]

If it was their sixth one, they must have had no problems before, had fun before, made money off the fundraiser before, etc. etc.

All fun and games till someone gets hurt or worse :(

Even if the family decides against pressing charges against GUTS, I hope Oklahoma disallows future boxing events and this brings to light that this isn't allowed in this state if any other organizations out there are considering having similar events.

this.

Having never met Bill Sheer nor attended a GUTS service I really can't speak to what their church is about. So instead of making some ill-informed remarks like some in this thread, I'll say if the church/staff did something purposefully wrong then they should be adequately punished. My prayers will be with the family and everyone affected by what happened.

[northspeter]

you don't disallow future boxing events... you prosecute unsanctioned ones... so hopefully people will stop putting on unsanctioned bouts...

[Breadburner]

Its a cult not a church......We can start there......

[sooneredaco]

this.

Having never met Bill Sheer nor attended a GUTS service I really can't speak to what their church is about. So instead of making some ill-informed remarks like some in this thread, I'll say if the church/staff did something purposefully wrong then they should be adequately punished. My prayers will be with the family and everyone affected by what happened.

I have met him and several others who work with him. That in conjunction with the press release allows me to share what I feel is my informed opinion. I agree with you in that this is tragic and pray and hope for the family to have some peace at this difficult time.