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SouthCarolinaSooner
9/21/2011, 10:25 PM
Georgia has killed what very well may be an innocent man tonight. When are we going to move out of the 19th century and abolish the death penalty?


Troy Davis was executed this evening after the U.S. Supreme Court denied a last-minute stay of execution.

Davis died at 11:08 p.m., according to a Georgia Department of Corrections official.

The execution was delayed more than four hours as the U.S. Supreme Court weighed last-minute arguments from Davis' legal team and the state of Georgia over whether his execution should be blocked.

The court's decision to deny the stay came without comment after 10 p.m. ET.

At 7:05 p.m. ET, five minutes after his scheduled death, Davis' supporters erupted in cheers, hugs and tears outside the jail in Jackson, Ga., as supporters believed Davis had been saved from the death penalty. But Davis was granted only a temporary reprieve as the Supreme Court considered the decision.

Davis was convicted of the 1989 murder of off-duty Savannah, Ga., policeman Mark MacPhail, and had his execution stayed four times over the course of his 22 years on death row, but multiple legal appeals during that time failed to prove his innocence.

Public support grew for Davis based on the recanted testimony of seven witnesses from his trial and the possible confession of another suspect, which his defense team claimed cast too much doubt on Davis' guilt to follow through with an execution.

Several witnesses recanted their testimony that Davis fired the shot that killed MacPhail. His impending execution has brought those efforts to a head.

A growing tide of celebrities, politicians and social media users called for the execution to be delayed because of "too much doubt" present in his case.


Jessica McGowan/Getty Images
Michael Henry and other protesters for Troy... View Full Size

Cop Killer Troy Davis Denied Clemency Watch Video

SCOTUS OKs 'Obese' Inmate's Execution Watch Video

Will This Man Be Hit By UARS Satellite? Watch Video

At a protest in front of the White House today, at least 12 Howard University students were arrested for failing to move off the White House sidewalk, according to ABC News affiliate WJLA. The protest there was expected to last until 7 p.m.

A flurry of messages on Twitter using the hashtags #TroyDavis and #TooMuchDoubt showed thousands of supporters of Davis were intent on flooding the Jackson Distirct Attorney's Office, Georgia Judge Penny Freezeman's office, and the U.S. Attorney General's Office with phone calls and emails to beg for a stay on the execution.

Some users accused Twitter of blocking the topic from trending on Tuesday, though a representative from Twitter told ABC News there was no such action taken. The hashtags were trending today in cities around the U.S. as well as Germany, the U.K., Sweden, and France. Many tweets called the case a symbol of a return to Jim Crow laws and racial inequalities in the justice system.

Big Boi, a member of the group Outkast, tweeted to his followers to go to the Georgia state prison in Jackson to protest the decision. The Roots' Questlove tweeted a similar message.

The NAACP and the Revs. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson held a news conference today calling for the execution to be halted.

Amnesty International, which has been fighting on behalf of Davis, encouraged supporters to attend a vigil at the church across the street from the prison at 5:30 p.m. and a protest at 6 p.m., and asked participants to wear a black armband and write on it, "Not in my name!"

Wendy Gozen Brown, a spokeswoman for Amnesty International, said that Troy Davis would want the protests to remain peaceful.

"In this type of situation, there's always the potential for it to go awry, with certain groups, angry rhetoric," Brown said. "But Troy Davis would want people to keep fighting peacefully, for him and for, as he would put it, all of the other Troy Davises out there."

Others who have voiced support for Davis include former President Jimmy Carter, the pope and a former FBI director.

Davis's execution has been stayed four times for appeals since his conviction in 1989, and the Supreme Court gave him a rare chance to prove his innocence last year, but rejected his plea.

A Georgia board of pardons and paroles rejected Davis's plea for clemency on Tuesday.

diverdog
9/21/2011, 10:33 PM
Georgia has killed what very well may be an innocent man tonight. When are we going to move out of the 19th century and abolish the death penalty?

Wow this is not good. I agree with your thoughts.

nighttrain12
9/21/2011, 10:39 PM
Peculiar how some people are against the death penalty even for cop-killers like Troy Davis, but the killing of unborn babies is somehow acceptable.

SouthCarolinaSooner
9/21/2011, 10:47 PM
Peculiar how some people are against the death penalty even for cop-killers like Troy Davis, but the killing of unborn babies is somehow acceptable.
Irrelevant, but I do support a woman's right to her own body.



The case against him consisted entirely of witness testimony which contained inconsistencies even at the time of the trial. Since then, all but two of the state's non-police witnesses from the trial have recanted or contradicted their testimony.
Many of these witnesses have stated in sworn affidavits that they were pressured or coerced by police into testifying or signing statements against Troy Davis.
One of the two witnesses who has not recanted his testimony is Sylvester "Red" Coles — the principle alternative suspect, according to the defense, against whom there is new evidence implicating him as the gunman. Nine individuals have signed affidavits implicating Sylvester Coles.

Its better to risk saving a guilty man than to condemn an innocent one, not to mention cheaper.

SicEmBaylor
9/22/2011, 03:49 AM
I'm pro-death pentalty though I do have some conceptual reservations against the government executing its citizens.

What makes the difference to me is that the state is merely means by which "the people" administer justice. The government did not convict and sentence this man to death -- the people did.

Caboose
9/22/2011, 06:55 AM
Irrelevant, but I do support a woman's right to her own body.

It has nothing to do with women's rights. At what point does a fetus become a human being with full human rights including the right to life?

TUSooner
9/22/2011, 07:39 AM
My problem is that the Congress has gone to extremes to severely restrict prisoners' rights to file "frivolous" habeas corpus petitions through procedural bars without making special allowances for death cases. But then, their goal in the "Antiterrorism and EFFECTIVE DEATH PENALTY Act" (AEDPA) was exactly to facilitate the states' ability to kill prisoners. The sad truth is that sometimes witnesses lie, cops lie, criminals lie, lawyers lie, and juries believe lies.

And by the way:

It has nothing to do with women's rights. NOTHING? NOTHING at all? HOLY ****. I think many millions of women might argue that point. Open both your eyes.

Lott's Bandana
9/22/2011, 08:54 AM
I'm surprised it happened, since he had Big Boi in his corner.

stoops the eternal pimp
9/22/2011, 09:00 AM
If Ludacris had stepped up, maybe this would had been different.

sappstuf
9/22/2011, 09:01 AM
CBS News justice correspondent Jan Crawford reports that even the four liberal justices on the nation's highest court agreed - Davis had multiple chances to prove his innocence, and each time he failed.

Sounds like the SCOTUS took a hard look at his case by delaying his execution for several hours and unanimously decided to not intervene.

Barry's_Scowl
9/22/2011, 09:13 AM
http://i.imgur.com/4XGMi.jpg

sappstuf
9/22/2011, 09:24 AM
http://i.imgur.com/4XGMi.jpg

Nah. Texas was executing someone who most certainly deserved it last night.. Lawrence Russell Brewer. One of the two guys that dragged James Byrd behind their truck.

TUSooner
9/22/2011, 09:32 AM
CBS News justice correspondent Jan Crawford reports that even the four liberal justices on the nation's highest court agreed - Davis had multiple chances to prove his innocence, and each time he failed.


Sounds like the SCOTUS took a hard look at his case by delaying his execution for several hours and unanimously decided to not intervene.

As someone who knows a bit about federal habeas corpus (to the extent it survives in the aforementioned AEDPA), I can assure you that proving "actual innocence" is very, very high hurdle to clear. At trial, a reasonable doubt gets you off; but the farther up the line you go after conviction, the heavier and more diffuclt the burdens become, because you are now presumed to have been fairly and finally convicted. Aside from favorable DNA evidence, it is well-nigh impossible to prove actual innocence. Appellate courts view witnesses who recant with exceedingly great skepticism. Perhaps it's too much skepticism, but it's very hard to untell a lie you've told under oath.

And it's not even 100% clear that actual innocence without some other constituional violation will get you relief. However, some SCT decisions suggest that it may be "unconstitutional" -- rather than just a tragic factual error -- to execute an innocent person.

Position Limit
9/22/2011, 09:51 AM
It has nothing to do with women's rights. At what point does a fetus become a human being with full human rights including the right to life?

evolve please caveman

JohnnyMack
9/22/2011, 10:40 AM
Black man kills a white cop and says "I'm innocent!" and everyone falls all over themselves acting like it's the biggest injustice we've ever seen. I wonder if Amnesty International showed up outside the Brewer execution in Texas last night?

I imagine if this Troy Davis fella had come up with some compelling evidence against him being the gunman in this case over the last 20 years, he wouldn't have gotten a dirt nap.

Soonerfan88
9/22/2011, 10:48 AM
He was assaulting a homeless man when the incident took place. He was convicted because shell casings matched his gun from a previous shooting he committed (no one has disputed this crime) and his best defense is that it wasn't him but another guy he was with who claims to have shot the cop. I'm not sympathetic.

soonercruiser
9/22/2011, 10:51 AM
Peculiar how some people are against the death penalty even for cop-killers like Troy Davis, but the killing of unborn babies is somehow acceptable.

THis exactly!
And it is a pertinent, and good analogy of the hypocrisy of the LW!

Over 50 million innocent children have been murdered since Roe v. Wade.
(50 million tax-payers; probably thousands of researchers and inventors that could have us healthier, wealthier, and cured many diseases.)
And noone seems to recognize the fact that the victim in that original case admits publically that the whole case was a scheme from the beginning.

So, if you want to come back out of caveman times, stop killing the children for personal convenience!
Very few abortions are done for the health of the mother!
Millions of women are suffering the permanent emotional and physical scars like sterility after abortions.
Can we possibly put a cost to that?
:chargrined:

sappstuf
9/22/2011, 10:54 AM
Black man kills a white cop and says "I'm innocent!" and everyone falls all over themselves acting like it's the biggest injustice we've ever seen. I wonder if Amnesty International showed up outside the Brewer execution in Texas last night?

I imagine if this Troy Davis fella had come up with some compelling evidence against him being the gunman in this case over the last 20 years, he wouldn't have gotten a dirt nap.

Knowing nothing about the facts of the case, I feel the same way.

SouthCarolinaSooner
9/22/2011, 11:17 AM
THis exactly!
And it is a pertinent, and good analogy of the hypocrisy of the LW!

Over 50 million innocent children have been murdered since Roe v. Wade.
(50 million tax-payers; probably thousands of researchers and inventors that could have us healthier, wealthier, and cured many diseases.)
And noone seems to recognize the fact that the victim in that original case admits publically that the whole case was a scheme from the beginning.

So, if you want to come back out of caveman times, stop killing the children for personal convenience!
Very few abortions are done for the health of the mother!
Millions of women are suffering the permanent emotional and physical scars like sterility after abortions.
Can we possibly put a cost to that?
:chargrined:
For hypocrisy, the RW and some LW call for protecting "sanctity of life" then executes people and starts two wars that serve little in out national interest.

As far as evidence, all but two state witnesses have either contradicted or retracted their testimony in the case. One of those who has not retracted their testimony is the target of a sworn affidavit by 7 other witnesses naming him the shooter. This man was put to death on shell casing evidence only, no DNA and no weapon.

Curly Bill
9/22/2011, 11:38 AM
I don't know what the evidence shows, and I'm sure not going to look into it, but he didn't seem to be in the running for the Mother Theresa award at any rate, so I bet I sleep fine knowing we executed him.

sooner_born_1960
9/22/2011, 11:41 AM
I was going to post something tacky like, "Damn, I had 11:07 in the office pool". But, I won't.

Gandalf_The_Grey
9/22/2011, 12:18 PM
They should only execute child molesters in my opinion. Ted Bundy would be a pretty good asset for the FBI to have if they were chasing a serial killer now wouldn't he. Child molester...not so much...

Bourbon St Sooner
9/22/2011, 12:46 PM
Georgia has killed what very well may be an innocent man tonight. When are we going to move out of the 19th century and abolish the death penalty?

He may not have killed the cop, but it sounds to me like he is far from innocent.

That being said, I've really turned around on the death penalty. I used to being strongly supportive, but after all of the people that have been freed since DNA has become prevalent, I don't think I could give someone the death penalty in a circumstancial case or only eye-witness evidence. I believe the death penalty should be reserved for only the most heinous of cases.

And yes I am pro-life.

lexsooner
9/22/2011, 01:47 PM
They should only execute child molesters in my opinion. Ted Bundy would be a pretty good asset for the FBI to have if they were chasing a serial killer now wouldn't he. Child molester...not so much...

Not sure what Bundy could do to aid the cops. Serial killers don't all think the same. He actually tried to cooperate and aid law enforcement as his execution date approached, but I don't think his information was of much use. What about the guys who raped and murdered the wife and daughters of that Conn. doctor? That was about as evil as it gets.

JohnnyMack
9/22/2011, 01:53 PM
They should only execute child molesters in my opinion. Ted Bundy would be a pretty good asset for the FBI to have if they were chasing a serial killer now wouldn't he. Child molester...not so much...

Are you sure you weren't watching Silence of the Lambs?

OhU1
9/22/2011, 02:43 PM
Ted Bundy would be a pretty good asset for the FBI to have if they were chasing a serial killer now wouldn't he. Child molester...not so much...

Ted Bundy was useful to that huckster TV preacher that interviewed him the night before his execution to promote the B.S. that "porn made him do it". The Burbidge Foundation uses Bundy to sell that idea too (did Bobbie Burbidge Lane catch little Wesley spanking it to Playboy when he was a child? - why are these bouffant haired old ladies so obsessed with porn?).

A sociopath like Bundy is useless unless you want to study sociopathy itself. Unfortunately they are common enough. Bundy had no real insight into his own mind anyway. He was a pervert who got off on having sex with dead girls and the power he felt "possessing" them. Not much more to it.

marfacowboy
9/22/2011, 03:14 PM
I'm sure if someone killed a family member, I'd want to kill them, but the fact of the matter is it costs taxpayers a lot more to put an inmate on death row than it does to give them life in prison. The rest of your life in solitary confinement is no picnic.
I don't know the facts around this case, but it seems as if there was more than a reasonable doubt as to the man's guilt.

C&CDean
9/22/2011, 04:40 PM
blah blah blah, muh****ah dead. Nothing to see here.

Caboose
9/22/2011, 07:47 PM
NOTHING? NOTHING at all? HOLY ****. I think many millions of women might argue that point. Open both your eyes.

And they would be wrong/regurgitating what they were told in order to deflect attention away from the center of the argument.

Caboose
9/22/2011, 07:52 PM
evolve please caveman

Really? The idea of one person's rights ending where another's begin is "caveman".... wow, could you be any more of a tool?

Turd_Ferguson
9/22/2011, 08:25 PM
wow, could you be any more of a tool?Yes, he can be...trust me.

Curly Bill
9/22/2011, 08:44 PM
Yes, he can be...trust me.

heh

nighttrain12
9/22/2011, 09:19 PM
I don't know why this is in the Obama forum. He purposely didn't comment on this case since it was a state prosecution, not a federal one.

Caboose
9/22/2011, 09:29 PM
I don't know why this is in the Obama forum. He purposely didn't comment on this case since it was a state prosecution, not a federal one.

Its the politics forum. It is named in honor of an esteemed career status quo politician.

Turd_Ferguson
9/22/2011, 11:19 PM
Wonder what they are using for the lethal injection. I think Texas stockpiled pentothal, but hospitals can't get it anymore.10 shots of OVJ...that'll kill anybody:biggrin:

SicEmBaylor
9/22/2011, 11:36 PM
10 shots of OVJ...that'll kill anybody:biggrin:

Not true. I've managed 6. Now, granted, I was drunker than **** but if I can do 6 then surely a larger dude could manage 10 and stave off death.

nighttrain12
9/23/2011, 12:32 AM
I was going to post something tacky like, "Damn, I had 11:07 in the office pool". But, I won't.

That dude Troy killed a cop in cold blood and you are worried about a silly little joke? Go for it man!

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 08:08 AM
[EDIT: ASSUMING THE DAVIS DEFENDERS ARE CORRECT.....] Just wondering where is the outrage over the witnesses who "bore false witness" againt Troy Davis and later recanted? Many are ranting against the justice system, but once a person is tried and convicted, he's no longer presumed innocent. It would be absurd to retry every case, indefinitely, in the media, with hindsight that is not even 20-20 hindsight. If Davis was innocent, the people who lied at the trial are to blame for his conviction and death; the courts - though imperfect - are not. Perhaps more procedural flexibility should be allowed in death cases, but Congress has spoken otherwise. Metaphysical certainty is not the province of human courts. The only sure way to avoid killing innocent people is to abolish capital punishment. I often feel like I should oppose it, but in truth I don't. Yet.

JohnnyMack
9/23/2011, 08:18 AM
Just wondering where is the outrage over the witnesses who "bore false witness" againt Troy Davis and later recanted? Many are ranting against the justice system, but once a person is tried and convicted, he's no longer presumed innocent. It would be absurd to retry every case, indefinitely, in the media, with hindsight that is not even 20-20 hindsight. If Davis was innocent, the people who lied at the trial are to blame for his conviction and death; the courts - though imperfect - are not. Perhaps more procedural flexibility should be allowed in death cases, but Congress has spoken otherwise. Metaphysical certainty is not the province of human courts. The only sure way to avoid killing innocent people is to abolish capital punishment. I often feel like I should oppose it, but in truth I don't. Yet.

What about those witnesses who didn't recant? Who stood by what they saw? Should we just call them liars?

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 08:26 AM
What about those witnesses who didn't recant? Who stood by what they saw? Should we just call them liars?

The implication that the State's witnesses actually lied was unintended and the result of my poor writing. I should have made clear that I meant, "Assuming the Davis defenders were correct....[&c]." I have no knowledge or opinion as to whether anyone lied. I'm just saying that IF anyone lied, they are the bad ones. Thanks for catching me and causing me to write this unwieldy explanation. :biggrin:

sappstuf
9/23/2011, 08:32 AM
Just wondering where is the outrage over the witnesses who "bore false witness" againt Troy Davis and later recanted? Many are ranting against the justice system, but once a person is tried and convicted, he's no longer presumed innocent. It would be absurd to retry every case, indefinitely, in the media, with hindsight that is not even 20-20 hindsight. If Davis was innocent, the people who lied at the trial are to blame for his conviction and death; the courts - though imperfect - are not. Perhaps more procedural flexibility should be allowed in death cases, but Congress has spoken otherwise. Metaphysical certainty is not the province of human courts. The only sure way to avoid killing innocent people is to abolish capital punishment. I often feel like I should oppose it, but in truth I don't. Yet.

I disagree. Do we need to tighten up the standards for capital punishment? I would be a little more comfortable if we did to be honest.

But there are other cases where I believe capital punishment is the only answer. That shooter in Norway? He needs to die... Quickly. It is the best thing for all involved, including the families. But that option is not even on the table. I think that is a bad thing.

TUSooner
9/23/2011, 08:41 AM
I disagree. Do we need to tighten up the standards for capital punishment? I would be a little more comfortable if we did to be honest.

But there are other cases where I believe capital punishment is the only answer. That shooter in Norway? He needs to die... Quickly. It is the best thing for all involved, including the families. But that option is not even on the table. I think that is a bad thing.

Well, I actually tend to agree with you. But Congress said the opposite.

By passing the AEDPA, they basically told prisoners, "You have 1 opportunity, within 1 year, to make every possible claim that your sentence was the result of something unconstitutional (i.e., not just a mistake)." This is just as true in death cases as in drug cases.

I say, if we are going to impose the ultimate punishment, the prosecuting authorities and the courts should have a commensurate burden of being as certain as humanly possible that the right person is going to die. It might mean fewer killers get the needle, but also fewer innocent people.

OhU1
9/23/2011, 09:38 AM
[EDIT: ASSUMING THE DAVIS DEFENDERS ARE CORRECT.....] Just wondering where is the outrage over the witnesses who "bore false witness" againt Troy Davis and later recanted? Many are ranting against the justice system, but once a person is tried and convicted, he's no longer presumed innocent. It would be absurd to retry every case, indefinitely, in the media, with hindsight that is not even 20-20 hindsight. If Davis was innocent, the people who lied at the trial are to blame for his conviction and death; the courts - though imperfect - are not. Perhaps more procedural flexibility should be allowed in death cases, but Congress has spoken otherwise. Metaphysical certainty is not the province of human courts. The only sure way to avoid killing innocent people is to abolish capital punishment. I often feel like I should oppose it, but in truth I don't. Yet.

Great post. I once felt, for about a year, that I should oppose the DP due to the "what if" innocence factor. That's a problem for any penal sanction however. There is a risk but one I'm not troubled with.

Once the DP is abolished where do you think the "cruel and unusual" argument will turn to next? That's right - LWOP. How inhumane - locking up a human being for life without any possibility for parole!!

"Civilized" Europe (yeah the guys who sponsored WWI, II, and the holocaust) typically have maximum sentences of 20 years or so for murder. Life is so cheap over there that it shocks the conscience of a European that the murderer should lose more than 2 decades of his life in jail. As far as I'm concerned anyone who willfully takes life (actual life, not a developing blob of cells) without legal justification forfeits any right or expectation of life for themselves.

SouthCarolinaSooner
9/23/2011, 09:54 AM
"Civilized" Europe (yeah the guys who sponsored WWI, II, and the holocaust) typically have maximum sentences of 20 years or so for murder. Life is so cheap over there that it shocks the conscience of a European that the murderer should lose more than 2 decades of his life in jail. As far as I'm concerned anyone who willfully takes life (actual life, not a developing blob of cells) without legal justification forfeits any right or expectation of life for themselves.
Nice straw man, bro. Europe also has re-conviction and imprisonment rates way below ours, because they actually rehabilitate instead of hardening criminals even more.

Breadburner
9/23/2011, 12:44 PM
Just because the media and that pu$$y Jimmy Carter were involved doesn't make this cop killer inoccent he had more appeals than you could shake a stick at plus a judge wrote a 170 page opinion on the case and found him guilty...Good riddance.....

yermom
9/23/2011, 12:51 PM
at first, i felt bad about this one, then i heard more details

it's not like this was just the wrong dude picked up in a line-up, and railroaded from there

as for the guy from Norway, i'm normally pretty anti-death penalty, but things like him and Terry Nichols still drawing breath make little sense to me

East Coast Bias
9/24/2011, 06:47 AM
The whole capital punishment debate points out how both parties have it wrong. Republicans say no to abortion but yes to capital punishment? claim to value life? Democrats say no to capital punishment but yes to abortion? claim to value life? The Republicans may try and make a distinction between a convicted murderer and an innocent unborn, but you either value life or not? I think life in prison is more of a punishment than death, hence why many shooters take their lives at the scene. I believe if we insist on capital punishment that has a lot to say about us as a people and what is says is not good. Another problem I have is that America is one of a handful of countries that puts juveniles to death in violation of international human rights.We are better than that....

diverdog
9/24/2011, 10:14 AM
Just because the media and that pu$$y Jimmy Carter were involved doesn't make this cop killer inoccent he had more appeals than you could shake a stick at plus a judge wrote a 170 page opinion on the case and found him guilty...Good riddance.....

The problem for me is there was no physical evidence linking him to the crime and the majority of witnesses changed their story. That is enough for me to say he needs to have his sentence converted to life. I don't think you could say he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

Of course this is all moot now.

One final thought if he is found innocent at a later date the death penalty will be gone.

TitoMorelli
9/24/2011, 10:56 AM
The whole capital punishment debate points out how both parties have it wrong. Republicans say no to abortion but yes to capital punishment? claim to value life? Democrats say no to capital punishment but yes to abortion? claim to value life? The Republicans may try and make a distinction between a convicted murderer and an innocent unborn, but you either value life or not? I think life in prison is more of a punishment than death, hence why many shooters take their lives at the scene. I believe if we insist on capital punishment that has a lot to say about us as a people and what is says is not good. Another problem I have is that America is one of a handful of countries that puts juveniles to death in violation of international human rights.We are better than that....

Attempting to link capital punishment to abortion is, I think, a logical misstep.

What capital punishment says as a society is that we do value life to the point that the act of pre-meditated and cold-blooded murder of another individual or individuals, WHEN the evidence is indisputable, is worthy of the maximum punishment, forfeiture of the life of the perp. Anything less proclaims that the value of such victims is worthless.

Timothy McVeigh deserved to die, and he deserved to die in a far LESS humane way than the method which was used. That he only got a needle in the arm is a pretty damn good sign that we are humane in punishing capital offenders.

lexsooner
9/24/2011, 11:26 AM
Attempting to link capital punishment to abortion is, I think, a logical misstep.

Timothy McVeigh deserved to die, and he deserved to die in a far LESS humane way than the method which was used. That he only got a needle in the arm is a pretty damn good sign that we are humane in punishing capital offenders.

Let's not forget that when you have capital punishment, you are asking law enforcement officials to carry out a legal homicide. I know some folks directly involved with McVeigh's execution at the federal prison in Terre Haute, IN. They were all volunteers from throughout the entire federal prison system, but it had a different impact on each of them. The word from these folks is that some of their fellow volunteers have continued to be involved in the program, but others were truly disturbed by being involved with an execution to the point they immediately left the program after the McVeigh execution. Mind you, these were all experienced correctional staff and none were soft in the least bit, but some could not do it anymore. The point is, it is easy to talk about capital punishment as long as you do not have to carry it out. Just like advocating for a military action, you had better be ok with all the consequences.

TitoMorelli
9/24/2011, 12:11 PM
Let's not forget that when you have capital punishment, you are asking law enforcement officials to carry out a legal homicide. I know some folks directly involved with McVeigh's execution at the federal prison in Terre Haute, IN. They were all volunteers from throughout the entire federal prison system, but it had a different impact on each of them. The word from these folks is that some of their fellow volunteers have continued to be involved in the program, but others were truly disturbed by being involved with an execution to the point they immediately left the program after the McVeigh execution. Mind you, these were all experienced correctional staff and none were soft in the least bit, but some could not do it anymore. The point is, it is easy to talk about capital punishment as long as you do not have to carry it out. Just like advocating for a military action, you had better be ok with all the consequences.

It's right that it shouldn't be a frivolous act for those entrusted with such a duty. And understandable that some would decide never again to be involved. I respect the responses and actions of those who dropped out, just as I respect those who chose to continue in the program.

That doesn't prove that capital punishment is wrong. A just system carries out punishment befitting the crime, all circumstances considered.

There are scores of American men over the past century who had trouble coping with the fact that they personally killed enemy combatants in a major war. Does that mean that it was wrong for us to enter WWI or II?

lexsooner
9/24/2011, 12:54 PM
It's right that it shouldn't be a frivolous act for those entrusted with such a duty. And understandable that some would decide never again to be involved. I respect the responses and actions of those who dropped out, just as I respect those who chose to continue in the program.

That doesn't prove that capital punishment is wrong. A just system carries out punishment befitting the crime, all circumstances considered.

There are scores of American men over the past century who had trouble coping with the fact that they personally killed enemy combatants in a major war. Does that mean that it was wrong for us to enter WWI or II?

No, it doesn't "prove" capital punishment is wrong, but it does make light of the fact it has a dark side to it which should be considered in the debate. Personally, it does not sit well with me that we ask our law enforcement officials to carry it out. The WW II example is apples and oranges. When your national security and way of life are threatened by a foreign power, of course you should go to war and have to deal with the losses and suffering by your citizens. With capital punishment, you are talking about the choice of executing someone or imprisoning them for life. They are not at all the same thing.

TitoMorelli
9/24/2011, 01:33 PM
No, it doesn't "prove" capital punishment is wrong, but it does make light of the fact it has a dark side to it which should be considered in the debate. Personally, it does not sit well with me that we ask our law enforcement officials to carry it out. The WW II example is apples and oranges. When your national security and way of life are threatened by a foreign power, of course you should go to war and have to deal with the losses and suffering by your citizens. With capital punishment, you are talking about the choice of executing someone or imprisoning them for life. They are not at all the same thing.

Apples and oranges? No. My impression is that you are arguing that the emotional toll that it has taken on some individuals is justification against capital punishment. I have argued the opposite by using a different example to show why I feel that yours doesn't apply.

The core of the argument should not be whether it takes a toll emotionally on those who carry out the sentence, or how much it costs taxpayers, or whether capital punishment is a deterrent to capital crimes. The issue I have raised is that there are criminal acts so horrible that capital punishment is warranted, and that the carrying out of such a sentence does not mean that we don't value life, but that we do value justice.

Now the earlier post to which I replied attempted to liken abortion to capital punishment, which is clearly apples and oranges.