Question about Shaw hit

[oudavid1]

Since he was hit in the head, obviously, and you cant hit a receiver in the head with a shoulder or a helmet, how can anyone say it wasnt a penalty on us?

4wEu73GvG8I

Also, ball looked like it was coming out right before Javon got him.

[sooneredaco]

That was a scary moment. I can assure you of this, * and everyone else left on OUr schedule will be looking at that and think "that could be me". They cleaned some clocks last night

[Serge Ibaka]

I agree.

The folks that I was watching the game with: they were annoyed by the timing of the flag (insinuating that if he had just popped-up unharmed, there never would have been a flag--which is likely true).

Still, I think that it was clearly illegal contact, albeit unintentional by both defenders. I wasn't bothered by the penalty. I also thought that it was correctly called as an incomplete pass.

I'm just glad that he was okay. I was pretty afraid for him; that was a perfect-storm as far as football-hits go. I thought he was dead.

[picasso]

Great question David. Especially coming from a Sooner fan.

OK, it was a penalty on us. Now what?

[boomersooner28]

I like what ex-NFLer Jason Sehorn had to say about all the new rules and personal fouls because of hard hits. His point was that as a defender you are trying to tackle a moving target...a very fast moving target. It's not like you have 5 seconds to stop and think about where and how you are going to hit someone and change your body angle. You have milliseconds to decide to tackle a guy, that is not enough time to change your body angle/position and make sure you hit him in the "legal" area. Especially when the guy you are hitting is little, say 5"10'. There is little space to even hit him "legally". Sehorn said that you can't call a personal foul everytime there is a hard hit. You will ruin football.

[cyclonesooner]

I thought it was a good, clean hit. You could tell that the OU defenders were trying not to hit him in the head. Where else were they supposed to hit him ? I guess they were just supposed to let him catch the ball. You couldn't do it better that they did in that instance.

[CatfishSooner]

I thought that was a fumble

[SoonerDan1]

Since he was hit in the head, obviously, and you cant hit a receiver in the head with a shoulder or a helmet, how can anyone say it wasnt a penalty on us?

4wEu73GvG8I

Also, ball looked like it was coming out right before Javon got him.

Who hit him in the head?

[btb916]

Guess they could have escorted him into their endzone and served tea. Wort is British after all.

Neither Wort or Harris lead with their helmet, and both were aiming for Shaw's body. But he was falling backwards fast, and the sandwich caused the contact with his helmet. "Incidental contact" on pass coverage is not a penalty. "Accidental head impact" should not be either.

It was very scary and I'm incredibly glad Shaw is ok. Just because he was hurt doesn't mean it was a penalty though.

[EatLeadCommie]

I thought it was a legal hit, personally. I was worried that replay would call it a TD, or maybe a fumble recovery for us. In the end, it didn't matter. They had a penalty back them up and then threw the pick a few plays later

[jmr_77]

Both OU defenders appeared to be trying not to hit him in the head. Shaw is falling backwards as he is being hit, so his head is already lower than normal. I don't agree with the penalty, especially the timing of the penalty. The flag was not thrown for at least a couple of seconds after the hit. I also thought Shaw caught the ball, take a couple of steps and then fumbled as soon as he was hit.

[stoopified]

[QThe groundUOTE=SoonerDan1;3345590]Who hit him in the head?[/QUOTE] The ground?

[JLEW1818]

i too thought it was a legal hit. Just because the player does not get up from the ground, does not mean throw a flag... The flag was thrown probably 3 seconds after the hit. They lead with their shoulder pads, both of them.

Stoops should just tell OUr boys, everytime you get hit hard, just don't get up and maybe they will throw a flag?

Don't mean to sound rude, and I'm glad the kid is okay. Yes he got knocked out, but it was a legal hit.

[SoonerObsession]

I'm ok with it being a penalty. But since when do they stop calling horse-collar fouls, like the one that was obvious on Tom Wart after the INT?

[sooner518]

I thought it was called as being a hit on a defenseless receiver after the ball has gone incomplete. Obviously this didn't make sense since on replay, it should hve been really obvious that it was a clear catch and fumble caused by the hit. I feel like the refs really didn't explain their reasoning or the call at all. Or maybe they just skipped it on tv. Regardless, I thought it was easily a legal hit and easily a fumble.

Ps- I'd love to see a single tackle in a football game where there isn't some contact to the head. The head gets hit almost every single play when a player is tackled.

[JiminyChristmas]

I didn't think there should have been a penalty, but it was close.

No one is talking about the one on Haywood on the kickoff. That was a great hit and he got penalized for it. Much worse call in my opinion than the one on the receiver.

[70sooner]

how about the 3 or so times it looked like the FSU defense jumped offsides? those were pretty obvious to me, anyway....

[sooner518]

I didn't think there should have been a penalty, but it was close.

No one is talking about the one on Haywood on the kickoff. That was a great hit and he got penalized for it. Much worse call in my opinion than the one on the receiver.

I think he got flagged for standing over the fsu guy and yelling at him after the tackle.

[meoveryouxinfinity]

I dont like the rule. They usually only call it if the defender is leading with the head down

[EatLeadCommie]

how about the 3 or so times it looked like the FSU defense jumped offsides? those were pretty obvious to me, anyway....
There was one time when it was REALLY obvious. Not only did one guy jump offsides, but another guy was lined up offsides. No call.

[Soonerfan88]

I thought it was a legal hit. Both led with their shoulders and lowered them to avoid the head. Unfortunately, the receiver is not very tall and was also falling backwards so the angles were completely against our defenders.

[BoulderSooner79]

The penalty didn't bother me - could have gone either way. I only get annoyed when they call it differently than I've seen in other games and that was not the case here. I'd say it was 50/50 they throw the flag on that one and we drew short straw. Watching the replay in slow motion, it could have easily been ruled a catch and a fumble as the guy took a good step and a half with the ball, but the refs don't have slow-mo replay.

I have no problem with our players on that play and wouldn't change a thing on technique. The hit was a fluke in that 2 guys hit him at exactly the same time and they were just trying to stop him from scoring. And BTW, they *did* stop him from scoring. Even though we got the flag, Wort intercepted on that drive and they didn't score. And there was nothing dirty about it.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Can I just say something real quick?

Dude got TARDKNOCKED. And that was freakin' hilarious. Did you see his arms all re-re'ed up before he hit the ground? THAT'S why he put the baby on the turf, he got smoothgummed. Snot bubbles and c-collars.

This statement had to be said. Through all the fake boob, "all I care about is the health and safety of those beautiful young men" crap, there is a gutteral response in every one of us that made you wince, smile, and whisper, "Holy crap, that kid got frickin' SMOKED." It's the same thing that makes you stare at a car wreck when you drive by. Makes the video of the dad getting hit in the balls a winner on America's Funniest Home Videos. Makes shows like "World's Dumbest Criminals" and "Cops" perennial television fixtures. Explains the very existence of NASCAR.

You want to see this. Sure, no one wants to see a kid have to get a feeding tube and live in a wheelchair for the rest of his days. But you want to see the hit, just like Theisman's leg. Where's the rewind button? Hope the kid's okay, let's see it again!

Don't be high and mighty. Kid got knocked da fugg out. And it was freakin' awesome.

[BoulderSooner79]

Can I just say something real quick?

Dude got TARDKNOCKED. And that was freakin' hilarious. Did you see his arms all re-re'ed up before he hit the ground? THAT'S why he put the baby on the turf, he got smoothgummed. Snot bubbles and c-collars.
...


You can say it and I can say you're a small minority or I hope you are. It wasn't hilarious. When a guys arms go stiff like that, it often means he was concussed - i.e. his brain is bruised from crashing into the side of his skull. For some reason, I don't find that hilarious - I guess I'm just weird.

[sooneredaco]

I don't find it hilarious, but it did draw a "holy sh!t he just got knocked the fug out!" from me. Reminded me of the movie Friday

[OUinFLA]

Im thinking the kid may have been lucky one of the two didnt hit lower. I could see his spine getting snapped sideways.

Glad he's is walking and not seriously disabled.

[JLEW1818]

how about the 3 or so times it looked like the FSU defense jumped offsides? those were pretty obvious to me, anyway....

yep, there was one where i was waiting for the flag, but never saw it. Didn't even look close.

[JLEW1818]

all i know is Shipley and McCoy have a combined weight of like 300 pounds. gonna be some tough hits coming

[birddog]

that looked like a poor bastard getting tattooed by 2 bad aces. too bad. you lose. hope you feel better.

[tulsaoilerfan]

If this was a penalty not sure why there wasnt a penalty on the hit on Stills; dude clearly led with his forearm and hit him square in the helmet; either call it all or don't call any of it

[oudavid1]

Ok, so what I got from this thread is basically its a 50/50 call. The argument is whether the receiver could be declared "defenseless" or not. I vote he was defenseless even though he was falling backwards. But I guess the most important thing is that he is ok. Also nice that we won. Thanks guys :D

[DYNOMITE]

at least we know big 12 refs aren't bias towards big12 schools..

[SoonerMarkVA]

how about the 3 or so times it looked like the FSU defense jumped offsides? those were pretty obvious to me, anyway....

You weren't the only one, brother. I just couldn't believe how early some of those guys would jump and no flag--at all. I figured they either had to be drawn off, or they jumped the gun, but just no flag.

[Sooner_Tuf]

Since he was hit in the head, obviously, and you cant hit a receiver in the head with a shoulder or a helmet, how can anyone say it wasnt a penalty on us?


Us? This has nothing to do with osu :/

[Sooner Cal]

The hit was worth the bad call because it prevented a TD. I thought is was a legal hit and I agree with Sehorn. The guys making the rules don't consider the difficulty of complying because they want to protect players, or at least appear to protect players.

This was a physical game with OU dealing out a lot of smashmouth hits. That's the best I've seen from OU since Mike Stoops was here.

[85sooners]

legal!!!!

[47straight]

If the big hit that Greg Reid put on a Maryland WR last year that was exactly the same thing wasn't a penalty, then this wasn't a penalty.

[BoulderSooner79]

If the big hit that Greg Reid put on a Maryland WR last year that was exactly the same thing wasn't a penalty, then this wasn't a penalty.

Either that or the Reid hit was a penalty and thus a bad no-call. When there is a judgement rule in the books, it may be applied differently by different refs. Like balls and strikes in baseball. The perspective on whether this was a bad is probably 100% based on which team you were routing for. I think it was a legal play, but I say that with the help of replay. Regardless, it was not an egregiously bad call and was within the realm of common interpretation. Just part of the game. The non-call on the elbow to Stills on his first big catch was a bad non-call. That's the one to moan about if you want to dis the refs.

[dennis580]

It was a penalty, and also a incomplete pass. The refs actually got both calls right.

On the penalty it doesn't matter if the defenders were trying not to hit in the head. If there is a blow to head its a penalty regardless of the defenders intention.

On the incomplete pass. The standard for a completed passed/fumble is a very high in college football. Not only does the receiver have to have poessession, and take two steps, but the reciever also has to make a football move. Shaw did not make a football move. Therefore its a incomplete pass

[JLEW1818]

It was a penalty, and also a incomplete pass. The refs actually got both calls right.

On the penalty it doesn't matter if the defenders were trying not to hit in the head. If there is a blow to head its a penalty regardless of the defenders intention.

On the incomplete pass. The standard for a completed passed/fumble is a very high in college football. Not only does the receiver have to have poessession, and take two steps, but the reciever also has to make a football move. Shaw did not make a football move. Therefore its a incomplete pass

the ref threw the flag when they guy didn't get up. a good 3 seconds after the hit.

to me it looked like they both hit him, and the FSU guy's head hit the helmets of the OU players, after initial contact.

Please don't make College/NFL Football soccer crap.

[cvsooner]

To me it looked like a hard legal hit by two players. It also was a completion and he fumbled. Should've been our ball. He fumbled into the end zone. Touchback. I'm glad he's okay; he really got clobbered. But it was legal. In a way, I feel for the refs. Hard call on some of these. Thought the call should have been made on the hit to Stills' head. but I can see that being more incidental/accidental.

[zeke]

Legal hit and the flag came in after they noticed he was out. I think he fumbled.

Someone said that it was funny? Really ? I dont find young guys getting hurt funny.

[PLaw]

I thought the replay showed that both OU defenders led with their shoulders and were targeting below the neck.

Compare that hit to the one Manny took from UF early in the BCS championship game. Clearly, the UF defender led with this head and targeted Manny's face mask. Not to mention that he arrived before the ball - he was clearly between Manny and the ball.

It was a great hard hitting game - reminded me of the great Sooner - Nebbish games in the 70's and 80's. The leather popped in those days, boys.

BOOMER

[Neath a Western Sky]

Hoping my fellow posters have straightened out your misconception of that play, "OU" David. Unfortunate injury but hard clean D by our guys. Can't remember a game where we brought the lumber so consistently as this one. Bodes well for our potential showdown with a swaggering SEC bunch in NO.

[Sooners78]

I didn't think the hits were illegal, but it seems that they are calling it that way now. I didn't like how late the flag was, and agree with others that it probably wouldn't have been called if the guy had popped up.

The elbow to Kenny's head definitely should have been flagged.

[BoulderSooner79]

I didn't think the hits were illegal, but it seems that they are calling it that way now. I didn't like how late the flag was, and agree with others that it probably wouldn't have been called if the guy had popped up.

The elbow to Kenny's head definitely should have been flagged.

^This. It is the way they call it, but there was nothing that would indicate intent by Wort/Harris other than making a tackle. But the forearm on Stills definitely looked intentional - good thing he only got a glancing blow.

[Frozen Sooner]

I think the flag might have been late because they were watching for the completion before reaching for the flag. They were going to call it all along, but they were focused on making the right call on that first. It looked to me like there was definitely some helmet-to-helmet contact on the hit, but I don't think either player was TRYING to go helmet-to-helmet. I'm OK with the call.

As for the incomplete vs. fumble: looked to me like he caught it (in the sense of the ball was in his hands, not in the sense of a reception) and was going to the ground. If you're going to the ground as part of the catch, you have to hold on all the way to the ground. He was knocked out before he hit the ground and the ball was out. Thus, incomplete.

Edit: FWIW, I talked to a buddy who's a D-1 ref. He said he'd have flagged that one every time.

[BoulderSooner79]

I think the flag might have been late because they were watching for the completion before reaching for the flag. They were going to call it all along, but they were focused on making the right call on that first. It looked to me like there was definitely some helmet-to-helmet contact on the hit, but I don't think either player was TRYING to go helmet-to-helmet. I'm OK with the call.
...


I agree there was a lot going on during that play and the ref has to watch the continuing action. It seems to annoy fans when flags come out late, but that's not really relevant. The refs also huddled after that play to discuss what each one saw as they should have. I think the refs did a good job overall, but they are never going to get them all right. The players decided this game, not the refs.

[BoulderSooner79]

I think the flag might have been late because they were watching for the completion before reaching for the flag. They were going to call it all along, but they were focused on making the right call on that first. It looked to me like there was definitely some helmet-to-helmet contact on the hit, but I don't think either player was TRYING to go helmet-to-helmet. I'm OK with the call.
...


I agree there was a lot going on during that play and the ref has to watch the continuing action. It seems to annoy fans when flags come out late, but that's not really relevant. The refs also huddled after that play to discuss what each one saw as they should have. I think the refs did a good job overall, but they are never going to get them all right. The players decided this game, not the refs.

[SoonerNutt]

Tell me this. Why was the hit on Shaw a penalty, but the hit on Stills wasn't? FSU defender forearm shivers Stills to the face while Stills is already falling on his back. Defenseless player. Clear shot to the head. Why no call? The ref clearly saw it, so that is no excuse.

This is what I don't like about the rules. Guys get hit high all game long, but then, about one out of every ten times it happens, somebody gets a PF and it changes the game. There is no way to prepare and teach a defense to play in that environment. Plus, if you are a running back, you'll never get that call. Only WRs and QBs. Why is that fair? Is an RB's health less important?

Also, I think this leads us down a road where you'll start to see guys flopping (euro-soccer style) trying to get those calls, then hopping up and coming back into the game after one play. That will cheapen the game IMO.

I don't want to see guys getting hurt all the time, and I know there has to be a balance between safety and physical play, but I don't like the way it is being managed. Either call all of the time or none of the time. Period.

[Buster]

Scroll to bottom, see for yourself


http://southernphotos.smugmug.com/2011CollegeFootball/Florida-State-vs-Oklahoma/19097212_p5WSft#P-8-10

[Frozen Sooner]

Tell me this. Why was the hit on Shaw a penalty, but the hit on Stills wasn't? FSU defender forearm shivers Stills to the face while Stills is already falling on his back. Defenseless player. Clear shot to the head. Why no call? The ref clearly saw it, so that is no excuse.

This is what I don't like about the rules. Guys get hit high all game long, but then, about one out of every ten times it happens, somebody gets a PF and it changes the game. There is no way to prepare and teach a defense to play in that environment. Plus, if you are a running back, you'll never get that call. Only WRs and QBs. Why is that fair? Is an RB's health less important?

Also, I think this leads us down a road where you'll start to see guys flopping (euro-soccer style) trying to get those calls, then hopping up and coming back into the game after one play. That will cheapen the game IMO.

I don't want to see guys getting hurt all the time, and I know there has to be a balance between safety and physical play, but I don't like the way it is being managed. Either call all of the time or none of the time. Period.

I thought the non-call on the Stills hit was wrong, so I won't defend that. There should have been PI at the very least. There was also a VERY questionable PI call against (I think) Jefferson on a deep route in the third. Jefferson had his position established ahead of the receiver and the receiver was running up his back, and somehow Jefferson gets the penalty.

[stoopified]

how about the 3 or so times it looked like the FSU defense jumped offsides? those were pretty obvious to me, anyway....That was something I was screaming at the TV about too.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I guess we couldn't change snap counts Saturday night, because they were firing off the line at such a pace that if they weren't offsides, they nailed the count several times.

[soonerboomer93]

I know Still took the forearm shiver, but I still think he got lucky on that hit. If he'd been upright and not sliding down like he was, that db would have blown him up. Guy was going full speed and had lowered his shoulder.

[fwsooner22]

I will leave it to all you experts. I know this, the alternative would have been to let him catch it. You can't hit a falling receiver low when you are in a "full out" run to the ball. Maybe you flag it everytime I don't know but I bet coach was OK with what his kids did. As for a flag being late ? That is always relevant. It means you thought about it....that's almost always gonna produce a bad call.

[BigTip]

Looking at it slow mo shows that neither hit, by themselves, would have been illegal. But since both happened at the same time, it caused the helmets to pop up and make contact with his. They made a very effective Sooner vice.

I think it was a fumble as well.

[SoonerNutt]

Looking at it slow mo shows that neither hit, by themselves, would have been illegal. But since both happened at the same time, it caused the helmets to pop up and make contact with his. They made a very effective Sooner vice.

I think it was a fumble as well.

My first reaction was that it was a fumble, but once I realized they were calling the penalty, it didn't really matter any more. We weren't getting the ball either way.

[EatLeadCommie]

Scroll to bottom, see for yourself


http://southernphotos.smugmug.com/2011CollegeFootball/Florida-State-vs-Oklahoma/19097212_p5WSft#P-8-10
Really can't see much in that picture either.

Had they ruled that a catch and fumble, we would've been screwed because the fumble would not have been a fumble since it was caused by the penalty. FSU would've had first and goal at the half yard line.

I think the catch and falling to the ground explanation has some merit, but that rule drives me crazy too. We had an INT in the EZ against Texas in the 2008 game that was called incomplete because it popped loose after OU took 4 steps with it in the EZ while being knocked down. Texas tied it with a FG the next play and never let go of the momentum.

[cccasooner2]

Here's a better picture of the legal hit.

http://blog.newsok.com/ou/files/2011/09/IMG00429-20110919-0159-300x225.jpg

From the newsok blog in case a red x shows up.

http://blog.newsok.com/ou/2011/09/19/the-ou-review-breaking-down-fsu-video/

[LASooner]

I'm ok with it being a penalty. But since when do they stop calling horse-collar fouls, like the one that was obvious on Tom Wart after the INT?

That pissed me off, If you're going to call it for one team, call it for both.


http://i55.tinypic.com/sn14i8.jpg

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Here is the angle that shows the helmet to helmet by wort (and him getting him behind the earhole). For clarification, about 10% of the Noles helmet is above Worts.

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/alericmckearn/ShawHit-Wort.png

Did Wort do it intentionally? No, the guy fell into getting the helmet to helmet. Was it a penalty? Yes.

[cccasooner2]

Here is the angle that shows the helmet to helmet by wort (and him getting him behind the earhole). For clarification, about 10% of the Noles helmet is above Worts.

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/alericmckearn/ShawHit-Wort.png

Did Wort do it intentionally? No, the guy fell into getting the helmet to helmet. Was it a penalty? Yes.

Sorry, I don't believe Wort should have been called for giving a HTH to Harris, both are red.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Sorry, I don't believe Wort should have been called for giving a HTH to Harris, both are red.

You are seeing what you want to see. Here is the blownup version with me highlighting the Noles helmet

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/alericmckearn/ShawWortCloseup.png

[SoonerinSouthlake]

I thought that was a fumble

It was a good hit AND it was a fumble

We got jobbed there. Had we lost the game it'd been a bigger issue

[BeaSooner]

WHY are we still talking about this?

[cccasooner2]

WHY are we still talking about this?

Because we almost got jobbed.

[BeaSooner]

Ok....carry on then.....

[oudavid1]

Hoping my fellow posters have straightened out your misconception of that play, "OU" David. Unfortunate injury but hard clean D by our guys. Can't remember a game where we brought the lumber so consistently as this one. Bodes well for our potential showdown with a swaggering SEC bunch in NO.

oudavid1*

[Fraggle145]

Guess they could have escorted him into their endzone and served tea. Wort is British after all.

Neither Wort or Harris lead with their helmet, and both were aiming for Shaw's body. But he was falling backwards fast, and the sandwich caused the contact with his helmet. "Incidental contact" on pass coverage is not a penalty. "Accidental head impact" should not be either.

It was very scary and I'm incredibly glad Shaw is ok. Just because he was hurt doesn't mean it was a penalty though.

It sure wasnt when it happened to Kenny Stills.

[Fraggle145]

You are seeing what you want to see. Here is the blownup version with me highlighting the Noles helmet

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/alericmckearn/ShawWortCloseup.png

Do it from the opposite angle when you can clearly see his helmet is between the shoulder pads.

[oudavid1]

So Kenny Shaw was knocked unconscious from a hit in the shoulder? Two hits in the shoulder? Very unlikely. Guys, you just cant let guys hit like this. These are kids, Kenny Shaw is 20 years old, this is not the nfl.

If Broyles got carted off unconscious you would all flip sh*t and those who say you wouldnt are lying in my opinion.

[Sooner_Tuf]

oudavid1*

You forgot your "S"

[Sooner_Tuf]

So Kenny Shaw was knocked unconscious from a hit in the shoulder? Two hits in the shoulder? Very unlikely. Guys, you just cant let guys hit like this. These are kids, Kenny Shaw is 20 years old, this is not the nfl.

If Broyles got carted off unconscious you would all flip sh*t and those who say you wouldnt are lying in my opinion.

Aren't they older than you?

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Do it from the opposite angle when you can clearly see his helmet is between the shoulder pads.

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/alericmckearn/ShawWortCauseSoonerfans.png

This angle? That my friends is a flag.

[oudavid1]

Aren't they older than you?

Depends if he is 20. Im a JR academically though. He is a sophomore.

[Sooner_Tuf]

Depends if he is 20. Im a JR academically though. He is a sophomore.

I see. Broyles is a rock star and you are umm the mini-doosh! :D

[mOUse]

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/alericmckearn/ShawWortCauseSoonerfans.png

This angle? That my friends is a flag.

Really, what i see here is: when you have caught the ball and you see two defenders running full speed to you, fall forward or squat so that your helmet is lower than theirs because they can no longer leagally hit you since your helmet is lower than theirs.
I also see the game of football changing from the game fell in love with, to a game where refs more anx more are involved in the outcome because interpretation of the rules and because of inconsistencies of the rules. Soon you'll see: its legal to hit running backs on the front of the helmet on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but only on the side of the helmet on Saturdays. How can defenders prepare for high speed reaction to offensive plays when they really have no idea in the split second what position a reciever will be in when impact is made ...i venture to say its nearly impossible what they have been asked to do.
Had the reciever in this picture been standing in an athletic running position, appearantly this hit would have looked a lot more legal to you but in the fraction of a second it took for the impact to be made he got low enough to get a flag. What i want to see is one step BEFORE impact ... When the decision was made where and how they Intended to hit him.

[marfacowboy]

I like what ex-NFLer Jason Sehorn had to say about all the new rules and personal fouls because of hard hits. His point was that as a defender you are trying to tackle a moving target...a very fast moving target. It's not like you have 5 seconds to stop and think about where and how you are going to hit someone and change your body angle. You have milliseconds to decide to tackle a guy, that is not enough time to change your body angle/position and make sure you hit him in the "legal" area. Especially when the guy you are hitting is little, say 5"10'. There is little space to even hit him "legally". Sehorn said that you can't call a personal foul everytime there is a hard hit. You will ruin football.
↑
This
Harris clearly pulled his head down and went for a shoulder to shoulder blow. Problem is, the receiver was falling, so by the time they collided, it was probably higher than he intended. Wort is higher, but as this poster states, you have about a nano-second to make a decision and get the angle right at those speeds. I think the penalty has to be called when there is CLEAR intent. There was no intent here. They tried to make a hard but clean hit but ended up high. I guess you could call it, but to say it's "dirty" is just BS.
Anyone that's played football, especially DB, should understand this.

[Fraggle145]

So Kenny Shaw was knocked unconscious from a hit in the shoulder? Two hits in the shoulder? Very unlikely. Guys, you just cant let guys hit like this. These are kids, Kenny Shaw is 20 years old, this is not the nfl.

If Broyles got carted off unconscious you would all flip sh*t and those who say you wouldnt are lying in my opinion.

No. He was hit in the head with the shoulders of two two people while falling down. The two OU player helmets come together. If they touch how can it be helmet to helmet? What do you want them to do turn it into nerf football? I wouldnt be pissed it it happened to Broyles. Yes I would want a flag, does that mean I would be right?. Where was the flag when it happened to Kenny Stills then? I'm just saying there is no way to consistently correctly call this penalty (without it being reviewable). So basically if someone gets knocked out its a 15 yd penalty? Just dumb.

[Fraggle145]

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr182/alericmckearn/ShawWortCauseSoonerfans.png

This angle? That my friends is a flag.

Why? I dont see the helmet to helmet. He is between two shoulder pads.

[C&CDean]

Why? I dont see the helmet to helmet. He is between two shoulder pads.

And dude is on his way down to boot. It's very obvious they weren't going for his head. They both came in at almost identical angles, and the receiver dropped down just before they got there. There wasn't a dang thing either one of them could do about it. I didn't think it was a penalty when I watched it live, and I still don't. It's good, hard-nosed football being played the way it's supposed to be played. Sometimes **** happens.

[Fraggle145]

And dude is on his way down to boot. It's very obvious they weren't going for his head. They both came in at almost identical angles, and the receiver dropped down just before they got there. There wasn't a dang thing either one of them could do about it. I didn't think it was a penalty when I watched it live, and I still don't. It's good, hard-nosed football being played the way it's supposed to be played. Sometimes **** happens.

Yep.

[OULenexaman]

That's good lookin sammich to me....

[EatLeadCommie]

I think the replay shows that he was initially hit on the shoulders by both players. Had it just been Wort or Harris who hit him, it would've been no problem. However, he got pinballed between the two, which is why he was knocked out. The force of that collision had to have been akin to a nasty car wreck that involves some serious whiplash and brain jiggling around in the skull. That last picture really doesn't tell the whole story because it doesn't reflect the initial contact. The WR has both his feet on the ground there with one leg bent. He is already in the process of either falling unconscious or attempting to back his way into the endzone.

In any case, I see why the penalty was called, but it certainly wasn't a dirty play and I don't think the replay supports the penalty call.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

AKA, tardknocked.

[Fraggle145]

So does anybody have the actual wording of the rule?

[pphilfran]

There is one angle in slo mo where you can see the helmet rising up....

The game has changed...hit up in the shoulder area and you risk a flag...

[Frozen Sooner]

The NCAA football rulebook is available for free download on the NCAA site if anyone wants to bother looking it up.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

The NCAA football rulebook is available for free download on the NCAA site if anyone wants to bother looking it up.

The rule is amazingly stupid. And I quote...


PROTECTION OF DEFENSELESS PLAYERS—In 2008, the committee
introduced a separate rule prohibiting initiating contact with and targeting a
defenseless opponent (Rule 9-1-3).
The following are situations in which defenseless players are susceptible to
serious injury:
• The quarterback moving down the line of scrimmage who has handed or
pitched the ball to a teammate, and then makes no attempt to participate
further in the play;
• The kicker who is in the act of kicking the ball, or who has not had a
reasonable length of time to regain his balance after the kick;
• The passer who is in the act of throwing the ball, or who has not had a
reasonable length of time to participate in the play again after releasing the
ball;
• The pass receiver whose concentration is on the ball;
• The pass receiver who has clearly relaxed when the pass is no longer
catchable;
• The kick receiver whose attention is on the downward flight of the ball;
• The kick receiver who has just touched the ball;
• The player who has relaxed once the ball has become dead; and
• The player who is obviously out of the play.

These definitions of "defenseless players" are then backed by this seemingly poignant rule.


Intentional helmet-to-helmet contact is never legal, nor is any other blow
directed toward an opponent’s head. Flagrant offenders shall be disqualified.

Emphasis mine in all cases. However, this is also backed by the inconsistency in the call versus Kenny Stills, which is textbook verbatim from Rule 9, Sec. 1, ss II.


II. A Team B player uses an extended forearm to strike a blow to the
helmet of the ball carrier while attempting to tackle. RULING:
Personal foul. Penalty—15 yards and automatic first down.
Disqualify if flagrant.

The $64,000 question is whether the hit on the FSU receiver qualifies under this statute, rule 9-1-3.


Receiver A83 has just leaped and received a forward pass. As
A83 is about to regain his balance, B45 launches and drives
into A83 above the shoulder area with his helmet or shoulder.
RULING: Foul by B45 for targeting and initiating contact with a
defenseless opponent above the shoulders. Ejection for a flagrant
foul.

This is the closest thing found in the rulebook concerning the contact that I've seen. HOWEVER, it was NOT enforced consistently with the rules as dictated. It was enforced with simply yardage lost, which makes me think either A) this is NOT the language applied in this ruling though closest in similarity to the occurence (including the applied penalty, not assuming guilt) or B) this IS the language used and the officials FAILED to enforce it properly, or C) this is the language used and the officials did not deem the offense to be worthy of ejection which is inconsistent with the rule as this offense is deemed "flagrant" by its nature.

Lastly, Landry's pick under pressure? The one he flushed left and released as he took the hit? ALSO an instance of a "defenseless player". 15 yard penalty, 1st down. Yet we saw no flag, didn't even expect one. Point being, it all serves to support the opinion that the flag was thrown because of the result of the contact, NOT because of the contact itself.

[oudavid1]

No. He was hit in the head with the shoulders of two two people while falling down. The two OU player helmets come together. If they touch how can it be helmet to helmet? What do you want them to do turn it into nerf football? I wouldnt be pissed it it happened to Broyles. Yes I would want a flag, does that mean I would be right?. Where was the flag when it happened to Kenny Stills then? I'm just saying there is no way to consistently correctly call this penalty (without it being reviewable). So basically if someone gets knocked out its a 15 yd penalty? Just dumb.

Kenny actually caught it for one, and he was way lower than the florida state kid. I think it was the right call, but i doubt I can turn any of you guys.

[BoulderSooner79]

Kenny actually caught it for one, and he was way lower than the florida state kid. I think it was the right call, but i doubt I can turn any of you guys.

If you're saying the FSU hit on Stills should not have been a flag, I disagree. The DB saw Stills was sliding down and tried to hit him by going over the top. When he realized he wasn't going to get him (in the head!) with the shoulder pads, he stuck out his forearm to hit him. Fortunately, it was only a glancing blow. And it doesn't matter that Stills caught the ball, they would have tacked on 15 more yards with the flag. Not a big deal, but a more obvious penalty than our goal-line hit.

[Fraggle145]

Kenny actually caught it for one, and he was way lower than the florida state kid. I think it was the right call, but i doubt I can turn any of you guys.

On Stills?! That was the wrong call. Just because he caught it makes no difference to the enforcement of the rule.

What if he still managed to catch it while being knocked out from being hit in the head?

What if the ball came out? Oh then it woulda got a flag? BS.

They are the same damn penalty. Stills was hit with the shoulder pad in the head as the defender went over him after he was already down.

Face it, you're wrong.

[mOUse]

On Stills?! That was the wrong call. Just because he caught it makes no difference to the enforcement of the rule.

What if he still managed to catch it while being knocked out from being hit in the head?

What if the ball came out? Oh then it woulda got a flag? BS.

They are the same damn penalty. Stills was hit with the shoulder pad in the head as the defender went over him after he was already down.

Face it, you're wrong.

Ill have to replay it when i get home, but it seemed that the FSU player even may have been airborne. But, in comparison to the Shaw hit...IF they called the shaw hit who was definitely falling in to the endzone at impact, the should DEFINITELY call the hit on Stills...but the INTERPRETATION by the refs was different...which bothers me greatly!

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

And dude is on his way down to boot. It's very obvious they weren't going for his head. They both came in at almost identical angles, and the receiver dropped down just before they got there. There wasn't a dang thing either one of them could do about it. I didn't think it was a penalty when I watched it live, and I still don't. It's good, hard-nosed football being played the way it's supposed to be played. Sometimes **** happens.

I agree there is nothing that the defenders could do about it since he was falling, but according to the rules its a flag. Just like unfortunately Colt McCoy flopping out of bounds and having a linebacker try to catch him is legally a flag. Yes, the rules are stupid sometimes. Oh and Wort actually hits him in the head and then slides around and hits him with the shoulder pads. Its hard to say which hit knocked him out.

[C&CDean]

If dude caught the ball for a TD do you think a flag woulda been thrown?

[oudavid1]

Alright fine, the refs agreed with me. Thats good enough for me. I put my opinion out there.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfcc6aVFRF1qfbix6o1_400.jpg

[delhalew]

Alright fine, the refs agreed with me. Thats good enough for me. I put my opinion out there.

Thank god you did. We needed a five page thread about this BS.

[oudavid1]

Thank god you did. We needed a five page thread about this BS.

I know, i do horrible things to you people.

[btb916]

Alright fine, the refs agreed with me. Thats good enough for me. I put my opinion out there.

I don't think you're nuts for thinking it was a penalty, though I do disagree with you. But saying "the refs agreed with me" . . . well the refs agreed that Oregon recovered the football when we had possession, too. So...I wouldn't stake my position on what the refs thought if I were you. They can get it terribly wrong sometimes.

[starclassic tama]

david is always the passive aggressive contrarian now

[soonerhubs]

Okay so LL and/or Nick stole UCODavid's password? ;)

[LASooner]

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfcc6aVFRF1qfbix6o1_400.jpg




Uuuuuuuuuuh Guy here.....


Love that show.

[oudavid1]

I don't think you're nuts for thinking it was a penalty, though I do disagree with you. But saying "the refs agreed with me" . . . well the refs agreed that Oregon recovered the football when we had possession, too. So...I wouldn't stake my position on what the refs thought if I were you. They can get it terribly wrong sometimes.

Ok I see your point.


david is always the passive aggressive contrarian now

Geez, alright I tone it down. I'll bet its getting annoying at this point.

[VA Sooner]

Blow to the head, illegal hit. But unintentional. Wort and Harris trying to make a play... trying to jar the ball loose, not the receiver's head. Unfortunate... but very, very fortunate that Shaw is OK.

It was a penalty, but not an intentional one. Play on.