military retirement....

[87sooner]

is now on the table for cuts...



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/15/eveningnews/main20092652.shtml

[Midtowner]

I guarantee you, we'll be cutting the soldiers' pay and retirement before we even think about cutting payments to contractors and weapons manufacturers.

[Lott's Bandana]

In the recent past, the number of veterans/retirees had dwindled down to where there wasn't as much influence with Congress as there had been after WWII/Korea/Vietnam. With all the conflicts of the past two decades, this influence will return with the millions of "new" vets, coming of age.

As a retiree, personally a 401K type system would be rubbish. There are so many reasons that the 20-year non-vested system works well in a military where so many things are sacrificed to reach that magic date. Comparing a military career to a civilian career is laughable.

[SoonerStormchaser]

I had better be grandfathered in...

[olevetonahill]

In the recent past, the number of veterans/retirees had dwindled down to where there wasn't as much influence with Congress as there had been after WWII/Korea/Vietnam. With all the conflicts of the past two decades, this influence will return with the millions of "new" vets, coming of age.

As a retiree, personally a 401K type system would be rubbish. There are so many reasons that the 20-year non-vested system works well in a military where so many things are sacrificed to reach that magic date. Comparing a military career to a civilian career is laughable.

What I were thinkin Bro.



I had better be grandfathered in...

You are what? on yer 3rd deployment?. Much like Fraggle was complaing about the school loans. Ya dont go cuttin folks off at the knees after they have waded 1/2 way across the river on yer advice.

If ya want to change the retirement Pay, then do it for New hires or Peeps with less than 2 years active service.

[misplaced_sooner]

I'm on the downhilll slide, 12 years of service in the air force..... Myself and many others are very concerned and watching this closely.

[diverdog]

Nm

[misplaced_sooner]

More info:
http://dbb.defense.gov/pdf/DBB_Military_Retirement_Final_Presentationpdf.pdf

[diverdog]

In the recent past, the number of veterans/retirees had dwindled down to where there wasn't as much influence with Congress as there had been after WWII/Korea/Vietnam. With all the conflicts of the past two decades, this influence will return with the millions of "new" vets, coming of age.

As a retiree, personally a 401K type system would be rubbish. There are so many reasons that the 20-year non-vested system works well in a military where so many things are sacrificed to reach that magic date. Comparing a military career to a civilian career is laughable.

It is gonna happen and it needs to happen. There are tons of military career fields that are not in harms way and should be put on a civilian style retirement plan.

I know so many Tea Party vets who think we spend to much and don't want to raise taxes. Well guess what they had better be careful what they ask for because it might come true. Their retirement is every much on the table as some union air traffic controller.

One other thing, the Pentagon has a said it can't account for trillions in spending. We need to reign them in before we go broke!

[jk the sooner fan]

It is gonna happen and it needs to happen. There are tons of military career fields thst are not in harms way and should be put on a civilian style retirement plan.

I know so many Tea Party vets who think we spend to much and don't want to raise taxes. Well guess what they had better be careful what they ask for because it might come true. Their retirement is every much on the table as some union air traffic controller.

exactly what military career fields are not in harms way? do tell

[badger]

From the way the article read, it would not just be a big middle finger to military retirees, but rather, also serve as a means of compensation for those that couldn't get to 20 years for whatever reason, as well as higher compensation for those in harm's way.

I know military careers involve a lot of moving around the country (or world) and can be tough on families, but when the phrase "shared sacrifice" is thrown around so much, would it really be shared if some were exempt from cuts?

And really, if they were told they couldn't do this, you know that they would find ways to force people out in year 19, similar to companies working people 39.9 hours per week, or pro sports teams cutting players right before a roster bonus is due, or Texas Tech cutting Mike Leach loose right before his big longevity bonus is due. To think that the system wouldn't change forever is unrealistic.

Now... let's cut into the elected officials retirement packages first before the military's. Especially the Oklahoma elected official ones :mad:

[TheHumanAlphabet]

This would benefit the young "liberal" leaning service members who get out after they get enough benefits for school, get out after one tour or get OTH discharges and throws a big FU at the older "conservative" senior enlisted and officers.

I am sure there is a "political" voting plan in there somewhere...

[Sooner5030]

this will work great.........as long as we don't get in another war in the next decade.

Too may computer scientists, civil engineers, network folks and good managers/leaders will bolt when they're making $60k base pay, still deploy 3 times per six years and have no pension to look forward to.

It can happen.....but consider all the costs, explicit and implicit. At least we get some utility out of those receiving military pay.

[IndySooner]

Funny when teachers' pensions were on the table, everyone was cool with it. We don't need education.

Also funny that now that they're talking about changing things in the middle, i.e. our student loan discussion the other day, everyone's up at arms.

Why is the military untouchable?

This would benefit the young "liberal" leaning service members who get out after they get enough benefits for school, get out after one tour or get OTH discharges and throws a big FU at the older "conservative" senior enlisted and officers.

This is funny. Love how you use "liberal" and "conservative" as to suggest that the people who use the system to get college paid for are all liberals.

[jk the sooner fan]

no offense to teachers, but they arent typically being shot at in foreign countries and being sent home from "school" in a body bag

[olevetonahill]

I firmly believe that a lot of posters on this board are just plain idiots.:rolleyes:

[Sooner5030]

Funny when teachers' pensions were on the table, everyone was cool with it. We don't need education.

Also funny that now that they're talking about changing things in the middle, i.e. our student loan discussion the other day, everyone's up at arms.

Why is the military untouchable?

This would benefit the young "liberal" leaning service members who get out after they get enough benefits for school, get out after one tour or get OTH discharges and throws a big FU at the older "conservative" senior enlisted and officers.

This is funny. Love how you use "liberal" and "conservative" as to suggest that the people who use the system to get college paid for are all liberals.

not sure what is funny about either case. The teachers and the military are employed and providing some sort of service or product. You were complaining about PHD level subsidized loans. Besides, a decision was made to increase undergrad at the expense of those grad loans.

[yermom]

no offense to teachers, but they arent typically being shot at in foreign countries and being sent home from "school" in a body bag

neither was everyone making military retirement money

[OutlandTrophy]

Funny when teachers' pensions were on the table, everyone was cool with it. We don't need education.

Also funny that now that they're talking about changing things in the middle, i.e. our student loan discussion the other day, everyone's up at arms.

Why is the military untouchable?

This would benefit the young "liberal" leaning service members who get out after they get enough benefits for school, get out after one tour or get OTH discharges and throws a big FU at the older "conservative" senior enlisted and officers.

This is funny. Love how you use "liberal" and "conservative" as to suggest that the people who use the system to get college paid for are all liberals.

we have teachers that get paid by the federal gov't and are on federal retirement plans?

[OutlandTrophy]

I firmly believe that a lot of posters on this board are just plain idiots.:rolleyes:

you are logged into SF.com, not the Hideout.

;)

[olevetonahill]

neither was everyone making military retirement money

Odds are bro that in twenty years EVERY one was in harms way at some point.
And/or forced to be away from family for long periods of time.

[jk the sooner fan]

here's the problem with concept that "only the soldiers in harms way should earn...blah blah blah"

1. the art of warfare has changed significantly in the last couple of decades....clerks and cooks are being killed as they travel from Point A to Point B by roadside bombs.
2. Soldiers often criss cross from one career field to another. One might spend 10 years in the infantry and then transition over to a combat service support role...'out of harms way' (see #1). This also happens vice versa
3. The infantry, etc, (warfighters) simply can't operate in a vacuum without support. The logistics supply chain is all about "beans and bullets" - making sure that everything the pointy tip of the spear needs, is available to them. That doesnt make a support soldiers job any less important.
4. All soldiers are required to maintain the same basic training standards, fitness standards, weapons qualifications, etc etc. all soldiers (nearly) participate in some form of field training exercise that focuses on performing their job in a war time environment. Mortar rounds can be lobbed into an administrative support area just as easy as they can into a platoon of infantry.
5. If you have a double pay standard in the military based on who gets shot at more than the others, good luck recruiting those support soldiers into place. They work substantially cheaper than a contract or government employee does primarily because they are at the beck and call of the military on a 24/7 basis. Its ridiculous (imo) to suggest that a pay and benefits system be established based on occupational specialty

I dont have any issue with making some changes to the current system, for those in the future, but there is a reason you want to encourage soldiers to stay for 20 years...in fact ,there's a host of REALLY GOOD reasons for it

if you dont have any way of enticing people to stay for the long haul - then you might as well scuttle the armed forces and contract everything out

[jk the sooner fan]

neither was everyone making military retirement money

soldiers are subject to go where the military sends them - they are always ready for any contingency - dependent on what happens in the world

you're suggesting that a soldier who spends 20 years on active duty shouldnt get a retirement simply because he was never shot at?



some of you folks really need to spend some time in combat boots before you share your ignorant opinions

[OhU1]

Funny when teachers' pensions were on the table, everyone was cool with it. We don't need education.

Also funny that now that they're talking about changing things in the middle, i.e. our student loan discussion the other day, everyone's up at arms.

Why is the military untouchable?

Ultimately all interests are special interests. Everyone has a good reason why their program, tax break, or benefit should not be touched.

I do think the military has a better case than most for people in the system - #1 due to the nature of the commitment between the soldier and our nation.

But if you are under a state or private pension plan most likely you are screwed. The future of Social Security, not great.

It seems like a crime to me but many state and private pension plans are underfunded and will not be able to fulfill promises to workers who have earned those benefits. If and when the federal till runs dry will federal retirees (including military) be in a similar boat?

Someday we will see welfare and benefit riots in the U.S. just like in Europe. (Does anyone remember the French farmers shutting down the government with a tractor blockade a few years back when crop subsidies were cut back? :stunned:)

[OhU1]

no offense to teachers, but they arent typically being shot at in foreign countries and being sent home from "school" in a body bag

No, they are being shot at by their own students and taken home in body bags. :(

[yermom]

soldiers are subject to go where the military sends them - they are always ready for any contingency - dependent on what happens in the world

you're suggesting that a soldier who spends 20 years on active duty shouldnt get a retirement simply because he was never shot at?



some of you folks really need to spend some time in combat boots before you share your ignorant opinions

i wasn't quite saying that, but you seem to suggest that at the end of 20 years everyone comes down off of a cross or something, regardless of their role

[olevetonahill]

No, they are being shot at by their own students and taken home in body bags. :(

Really? Tell me how many were killed in the classroom in the last year.:rolleyes:

[OutlandTrophy]

i wasn't quite saying that, but you seem to suggest that at the end of 20 years everyone comes down off of a cross or something, regardless of their role

he didn't even come close to saying that

[olevetonahill]

i wasn't quite saying that, but you seem to suggest that at the end of 20 years everyone comes down off of a cross or something, regardless of their role

Not off a cross bro, but how many times have you seen an Airport full of people stand an honor a teacher?:P

[jk the sooner fan]

he didn't even come close to saying that

exactly

i didnt say any such thing

[yermom]

so then we are even ;)

[87sooner]

this will work great.........as long as we don't get in another war in the next decade.

Too may computer scientists, civil engineers, network folks and good managers/leaders will bolt when they're making $60k base pay, still deploy 3 times per six years and have no pension to look forward to.

It can happen.....but consider all the costs, explicit and implicit. At least we get some utility out of those receiving military pay.

not many computer scientists/network folks/etc "deploy" 3x/6 years...
thousands of people in the military never see harms way their entire career....

the military should not be a place to get a fat pension...
one might actually have to consider serving/protecting one's country to be the foremost "benefit"...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

This is funny. Love how you use "liberal" and "conservative" as to suggest that the people who use the system to get college paid for are all liberals.

Didn't mean to mean that except for typical demographics... and used quotes to signify slack in the definition.

[GKeeper316]

It is gonna happen and it needs to happen. There are tons of military career fields thst are not in harms way and should be put on a civilian style retirement plan.


no. no. no. no...

if you screw up in a civilian job, you get fired. screw up in a military job, you go to prison.

as long as the service members are subject to the ucmj, you cannot apply civilian work paradigms to them, regardless of MOS.

[sappstuf]

no offense to teachers, but they arent typically being shot at in foreign countries and being sent home from "school" in a body bag

Los Angeles teachers being the exception...

[Lott's Bandana]

not many computer scientists/network folks/etc "deploy" 3x/6 years...
thousands of people in the military never see harms way their entire career....

the military should not be a place to get a fat pension...
one might actually have to consider serving/protecting one's country to be the foremost "benefit"...


This is where you got me.

Many get killed before ever receiving this benefit. Another "consideration".

I daresay there are very, very few enlisted retirees that "considered" doing this for the fat pension. I can't speak for retired officers that made flag rank, that payout is considerably more generous that the mainstream G.I's.

The fat pension you speak of is public information and anyone with the ability to Google can find it and see that it is anything but...


As long as our Armed Forces continue to be made up of volunteers, this proven method of reasonable compensation for 20 years of Service should remain.

They did it so you didn't have to, so STFU about your "benefit".

[diverdog]

exactly what military career fields are not in harms way? do tell

Unless you are flight crew, fac, pj, security forces and a few others in the AF you are generally not in combat/hazardous duty role. I have said this before... not all jobs in the military are equal.

[olevetonahill]

This is where you got me.

Many get killed before ever receiving this benefit. Another "consideration".

I daresay there are very, very few enlisted retirees that "considered" doing this for the fat pension. I can't speak for retired officers that made flag rank, that payout is considerably more generous that the mainstream G.I's.

The fat pension you speak of is public information and anyone with the ability to Google can find it and see that it is anything but...


As long as our Armed Forces continue to be made up of volunteers, this proven method of reasonable compensation for 20 years of Service should remain.

They did it so you didn't have to, so STFU about your "benefit".


Well said :cool:

[87sooner]

This is where you got me.

Many get killed before ever receiving this benefit. Another "consideration".

I daresay there are very, very few enlisted retirees that "considered" doing this for the fat pension. I can't speak for retired officers that made flag rank, that payout is considerably more generous that the mainstream G.I's.


maybe...maybe not...
if not...then it shouldn't be a problem paring it back a bit..



The fat pension you speak of is public information and anyone with the ability to Google can find it and see that it is anything but...


it is extremely fat...when you consider people start collecting it at age 38-42....and continue for the rest of their lives...
and considering the increases in military pay the past 20 years....it's gotten even fatter...







As long as our Armed Forces continue to be made up of volunteers, this proven method of reasonable compensation for 20 years of Service should remain.


They did it so you didn't have to, so STFU about your "benefit".

i served 4 years so you stfu and kma

[OutlandTrophy]

Unless you are flight crew, fac, pj, security forces and a few others in the AF you are generally not in combat/hazardous duty role. I have said this before... not all jobs in the military are equal.
you've said it but that does not mean it is true.


what about the diesel mechanic near the FLOT? what about the Battalion S1 people in the TOC?

[soonercruiser]

Funny when teachers' pensions were on the table, everyone was cool with it. We don't need education.

Also funny that now that they're talking about changing things in the middle, i.e. our student loan discussion the other day, everyone's up at arms.

Why is the military untouchable?

This would benefit the young "liberal" leaning service members who get out after they get enough benefits for school, get out after one tour or get OTH discharges and throws a big FU at the older "conservative" senior enlisted and officers.

This is funny. Love how you use "liberal" and "conservative" as to suggest that the people who use the system to get college paid for are all liberals.

Indy is right!
I think all us military weenies who have sacrificed for what we are/were getting need to unionize.
Then, we can bitch like all the libs and teacher's unions.
:rolleyes:

[diverdog]

soldiers are subject to go where the military sends them - they are always ready for any contingency - dependent on what happens in the world

you're suggesting that a soldier who spends 20 years on active duty shouldnt get a retirement simply because he was never shot at?



some of you folks really need to spend some time in combat boots before you share your ignorant opinions

No they should get a retirement at 62 like everyone else. There is a huge entitlement mentallity in the military.

[87sooner]

some of you folks really need to spend some time in combat boots before you share your ignorant opinions

i spent time in combat boots....what do you think of my opinion?

[soonercruiser]

We,, it's the same old arguments, liberal peace hippes vs. war-mongering conservatives.
But, the real bottom line is....

If it's up to a liberal or Demoncrat, the military is always the easy target.
Bet, you won't see proportiante cuts in social programs or Congressional salaries while Dems have a finger in it! :rolleyes:
I have already posted many times all the crap that we in the military had to take in the a** every time the govment needed to save money.
It's just really getting old.
:(

[OutlandTrophy]

No they should get a retirement at 62 like everyone else. There is a huge entitlement mentallity in the military.

How do you handle the guy that spends 10 years in the Infantry, has 2 purple hearts and spends his last 10 years as a recruiter?

[soonercruiser]

i spent time in combat boots....what do you think of my opinion?

Ah, your mother wears combat boots!
:D
(just kidding)

[diverdog]

We,, it's the same old arguments, liberal peace hippes vs. war-mongering conservatives.
But, the real bottom line is....

If it's up to a liberal or Demoncrat, the military is always the easy target.
Bet, you won't see proportiante cuts in social programs or Congressional salaries while Dems have a finger in it! :rolleyes:
I have already posted many times all the crap that we in the military had to take in the a** every time the govment needed to save money.
It's just really getting old.
:(

LOL. Now you are sounding like a union member.

[olevetonahill]

i spent time in combat boots....what do you think of my opinion?

I think it succs and yer a weenie.:P

[Sooner5030]

No they should get a retirement at 62 like everyone else. There is a huge entitlement mentallity in the military.

it's not just an entitlement mentality....there's also a retention aspect to consider. You can't work 40 years or until you are 62 in the military. If you are up front that pensions will go away what would you do to retain quality folks that want to make it a career?

Loyalty to country buys you 2-3 tours but after awhile family considerations will drive that highly trained person to look for civilian employment after fulfilling their personal obligations.

[sappstuf]

None of this will happen before the elections in 2012..

At the 15 year mark, you have to sign paperwork chosing either High 3 or Redux plus $30K. I don't see how you could reconcile lumping these two groups together that made that choice. I'm guessing at minimum anyone who has signed that paperwork will fall under the old plan. It might extend all the way down to 10 years.

[87sooner]

it's not just an entitlement mentality....there's also a retention aspect to consider. You can't work 40 years or until you are 62 in the military. If you are up front that pensions will go away what would you do to retain quality folks that want to make it a career?

Loyalty to country buys you 2-3 tours but after awhile family considerations will drive that highly trained person to look for civilian employment after fulfilling their personal obligations.

you wouldn't have to work 40 years or until age 62...
you retire after 20...but don't receive your pension until age 62 or whatever...

[olevetonahill]

I'm siccin Sunny on you fools.:P

[diverdog]

How do you handle the guy that spends 10 years in the Infantry, has 2 purple hearts and spends his last 10 years as a recruiter?

Tough question because he is probably eligible for VA benefits. I would design a plan with points that buys down benefits due to combat roles or hazardous career fields.

[diverdog]

you wouldn't have to work 40 years or until age 62...
you retire after 20...but don't receive your pension until age 62 or whatever...

Exactly right. And this retirement is far better than a civilian retirement.

[sappstuf]

Tough question because he is probably eligible for VA benefits. I would design a plan with points that buys down benefits due to combat roles are hazardous career fields.

What would you do with the Navy that deploys routinely, even during peacetime where a Sailor easily spends 10-12 years out of 20 deployed or on sea duty?

[Lott's Bandana]

maybe...maybe not...
if not...then it shouldn't be a problem paring it back a bit..




it is extremely fat...when you consider people start collecting it at age 38-42....and continue for the rest of their lives...
and considering the increases in military pay the past 20 years....it's gotten even fatter...







i served 4 years so you stfu and kma

I respect that, so lets keep it the way it is. You got the "benefit" of serving, and those that stayed 20, deploying often, raising families often apart from them and reaching leadership positions and therefore train the 4-year enlistees, should continue the benefit of 1/2 pay...for the rest of their lives.

My net total payout, should I reach age 65, will be approximately $500,000. I daresay that comes short of "fat", over 35 year's time.

My father is also retired military, and my grandfather was as well. I suppose we've been living off the dole.

[Sooner5030]

you wouldn't have to work 40 years or until age 62...
you retire after 20...but don't receive your pension until age 62 or whatever...

mid career's make decisions based on a number of things. Knowing that they will not get a pension and have to seek a new career eventually will opt to do so at the earliest opportunity.

these decisions have to be well thought out......you can't un-fck retention mistakes later down the road.

[diverdog]

What would you do with the Navy that deploys routinely, even during peacetime where a Sailor easily spends 10-12 years out of 20 deployed or on sea duty?

See Deadliest Catch. 62 would be the retirement age.

[jk the sooner fan]

i spent time in combat boots....what do you think of my opinion?

How many years?

[Lott's Bandana]

See Deadliest Catch. 62 would be the retirement age.


Please tell me you are joking and I fell for it. Please.

[sappstuf]

See Deadliest Catch. 62 would be the retirement age.

You still don't understand the Navy lifestyle. You will not find many qualified people who are willing to give up 6 years of their children's life for something 40 years away...

When people are ready to have a family, they will pull their TSP and move on to the civilian sector. Senior enlisted ranks will be butchered.

[jk the sooner fan]

Not collecting retirement until 62 would have a serious impact on retention and the senior enlisted and officer ranks

[Fish&Game]

:pop:

[Sooner5030]

ways not to cut defense spending: accross the board %, decrease pay and benefits

ways to cut defense spending: targeted slicing of capabilities, increased discrimination for retention on evaluations in order to weed out some of the fluf and downsize.

[beer4me]

Exactly right. And this retirement is far better than a civilian retirement.

DING DING DING DING DING DING

Ok thank God that is over it was wearing my ole tired azz out.

You don't realize how hard it is to be forced to wait, watch, and wait endlessly just praying for that one sweet relief of sheer ecstacy when you can finally put yourself at rest and know with all your being:

Finally the most stupid post to ever be typed as been typed and posted.

My that is such a relief now I know the most stupid post possible has been reached anything else posted by anybody will be as meaningfull as navel lint.

[jk the sooner fan]

I'd be in favor of withholding military retirement until 62 if only retirees had any benefits at all. Serve 4 years? Good for you, your nation is greatful. No VA benefits unless you were wounded in combat. No educational benefits, nothing.

[jk the sooner fan]

Diverdog, did you serve?

[diverdog]

Diverdog, did you serve?

Yes and I am a DAV (non combat injury). Over half my class either died or were severely injured.

[jk the sooner fan]

Class of what?

[diverdog]

DING DING DING DING DING DING

Ok thank God that is over it was wearing my ole tired azz out.

You don't realize how hard it is to be forced to wait, watch, and wait endlessly just praying for that one sweet relief of sheer ecstacy when you can finally put yourself at rest and know with all your being:

Finally the most stupid post to ever be typed as been typed and posted.

My that is such a relief now I know the most stupid post possible has been reached anything else posted by anybody will be as meaningfull as navel lint.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Federal retirees...non military have better retirements than their civilian counter parts. For my dad to have the same benefits that he receives as an O6 he would need $3 million dollars in the bank. My dad did not contribute a dime to his military pension, has gotten it for 30 years, longer than he served and because of COLAs he makes almost as much as an active duty Coloniel base pay. Tell me how that is sustainable.

[yermom]

I'd be in favor of withholding military retirement until 62 if only retirees had any benefits at all. Serve 4 years? Good for you, your nation is greatful. No VA benefits unless you were wounded in combat. No educational benefits, nothing.

good luck getting anyone to sign up under those terms

[jk the sooner fan]

Your dad is not drawing in retirement the pay of a full colonel


Pure bs


I'm a retiree...21 years.

[Lott's Bandana]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Federal retirees...non military have better retirements than their civilian counter parts. For my dad to have the same benefits that he receives as an O6 he would need $3 million dollars in the bank. My dad did not contribute a dime to his military pension, has gotten it for 30 years, longer than he served and because of COLAs he makes almost as much as an active duty Coloniel base pay. Tell me how that is sustainable.


Would he look at it that way?

A military retirement is not vested. Therefore, everyone takes a risk that they may serve 18 years and for whatever circumstance, get booted with nothing. There is no 401k/IRA to take with you.

Sustainable? Military retirement has been an expense relative to the government's budget for many decades and therefore, if the government was fiscally frugal at this point in time, military pensions would certainly not be a target.

[jk the sooner fan]

good luck getting anyone to sign up under those terms

Now you're getting it.....

[diverdog]

Class of what?

I flew as a loadmaster on C-130's and C5's. I had friends die in air to air crashes, doing LAPSE, air drop or SOLII missions. Military aviation is very dangerous and there are a million ways to die. I loved flying and would do it again. Pensions were never a factor because I got to do a lot of cool chit. Plus I got to see the world. The military saved my life and I would have done it for room and board. That is just me.

[Lott's Bandana]

I flew as a loadmaster on C-130's and C5's. Plus I flew on I had friends die in air to air crashes, doing LAPSE, air drop or SOLII missions. Militaty aviation is very dangerous and there are a million ways to die. I loved flying and would do it again. Pensiion was never a factor because I got to do a lot of cool chit. Plus I got to see the world. The military saved my life and I would have done it for room and board.


That is awesome.

I can't even say that, as I did it for room and board and the opportunity to wear a sailor suit!

:P

[diverdog]

Would he look at it that way?

A military retirement is not vested. Therefore, everyone takes a risk that they may serve 18 years and for whatever circumstance, get booted with nothing. There is no 401k/IRA to take with you.

Sustainable? Military retirement has been an expense relative to the government's budget for many decades and therefore, if the government was fiscally frugal at this point in time, military pensions would certainly not be a target.

Yes. We have had this discussion a million times. Neither of us served for the pension. He was a pilot and lived to fly. That is what he did after retirement.

[diverdog]

That is awesome.

I can't even say that, as I did it for room and board and the opportunity to wear a sailor suit!

:P

I have got to quit typing on my Ipad. My spelling is horrible.

[Lott's Bandana]

Then we are in agreement about not doing it for the pension.

HOWEVER, taking it away or chipping at said benefit devalues the Service rendered and how can you possibly devalue what you, your father and your classmates did for your country, without being forced to do it?

[badger]

good luck getting anyone to sign up under those terms

Yeah... something tells me teenagers aren't that concerned about retirement benefits at that early age.

[diverdog]

Your dad is not drawing in retirement the pay of a full colonel


Pure bs


I'm a retiree...21 years.

I said base pay. But you are probably right because of the recent increases.

[yermom]

Yeah... something tells me teenagers aren't that concerned about retirement benefits at that early age.

i was thinking more about the GI Bill, or whatever they call it now

[OutlandTrophy]

Yeah... something tells me teenagers aren't that concerned about retirement benefits at that early age.

I was never a retention NCO but at the end of each enlistment they use various sales pitches to get people to stay. You don't recruit HS kids by telling them about retirement just as you don't tell a 16 year soldier about all of the training the military will give them and that they can see the world if they stay in.

[diverdog]

Then we are in agreement about not doing it for the pension.

HOWEVER, taking it away or chipping at said benefit devalues the Service rendered and how can you possibly devalue what you, your father and your classmates did for your country, without being forced to do it?

Lott:

Here is the deal. I am being an *** on this subject because we have so many current and retired military folks on this board who take every chance they get to trash the government or other government employees. They think the government is to big , that it needs to be cut and they don't want to raise taxes. On the other hand they think they are immuned to any cuts or changes to their lifestyle. Well they are wrong because they are part of the budget problem and they will face cuts. If we do not increase taxes then huge cuts will be made. Some of them have advocated a balanced budget amendment. That would force drastic changes tO their lifestyle. The military is huge and we can get a big bang for the buck by cutting it. Adjusting the military retirement system saves hundreds of billions of dollars.

Most career military folks live in lala land. They have no idea what it is like to work in the civilian world and how good they have it in the military. Most of my friends that got out could not live off what they make in the civilian world without their retirement.

Someone said the military would have a problem retaining computer programmers. Maybe they need to come where I live where programmers are a dime a dozen. The job market is brutal right now. The military has very good pay and benefits.

Let me be clear on where I really stand. I am willing to pay a lot more in taxes to keep the current system in place. However if the Tea Party holds the nation to no new tax increases then you guys are going to feel the pain.

[87sooner]

How many years?

how many years?
now it matters?

you said "spend some time in combat boots...."
now you're backpeddling....

i was an air force officer for 4 years....that long enuf for you?
my brother did 21 ret. capt...after 11 years enlisted..
my brother in law is retired O6..
my nephew is a capt....flies c-17...

my family knows a little about serving our country...

[87sooner]

I respect that, so lets keep it the way it is. You got the "benefit" of serving, and those that stayed 20, deploying often, raising families often apart from them and reaching leadership positions and therefore train the 4-year enlistees, should continue the benefit of 1/2 pay...for the rest of their lives.

My net total payout, should I reach age 65, will be approximately $500,000. I daresay that comes short of "fat", over 35 year's time.

My father is also retired military, and my grandfather was as well. I suppose we've been living off the dole.

so you feel like the country owes you a pension from 38 till death even if it means our economy collapses?
my aren't you patriotic....

when i took my oath...a pension was the furthest thing from my mind..

[Sooner5030]

Someone said the military would have a problem retaining computer programmers. Maybe they need to come where I live where programmers are a dime a dozen. The job market is brutal right now. The military has very good pay and benefits.

Regardless of profession, lower the compensation package and top talent will leave. I lose alot of talented civil and mechanical engineers at the 4 and 8
year marks due to their compensation packages compared to the civilian world.


Let me be clear on where I really stand. I am willing to pay a lot more in taxes to keep the current system in place. However if the Tea Party holds the nation to no new tax increases then you guys are going to feel the pain.

I've state multiple times on this board that DoD needs to be below $500 billion in 2005 dollars. There are many methods to cutting spending, cutting pay and bennies only jettisons the top talent and retains what is left.

We need targeted cuts that admit we cannot do more with less and we have to let go of certain capabilities.

[Lott's Bandana]

Lott:

Here is the deal. I am being an *** on this subject because we have so many current and retired military folks on this board who take every chance they get to trash the government or other government employees. They think the government is to big , that it needs to be cut and they don't want to raise taxes. On the other hand they think they are immuned to any cuts or changes to their lifestyle. Well they are wrong because they are part of the budget problem and they will face cuts. If we do not increase taxes then huge cuts will be made. Some of them have advocated a balanced budget amendment. That would force drastic changes their lifestyle. The military is huge and we can get a big bang for the buck by cutting it.

Most career military folks live in lala land. They have no idea what it is like to work in the civilian world and how good they have it in the military. Most of my friends that got out could not live off what they make in the civilian world without their retirement.

Someone said the military would have a problem retaining computer programmers. Maybe they need to come where I live where programmers are a dime a dozen. The job market is brutal right now. The military has very good pay and benefits.

Let me be clear on where I really stand. I am willing to pay a lot more in taxes to keep the current system in place. However if the Tea Party holds the nation to no new tax increases then you guys are going to feel the pain.

It appears you left your iPad behind for a real keyboard?


I completely respect your opinion and cannot really tell you if I really agree with your points or not. You see, I became apolitical several years ago, after having been a living, breathing politicaddict for decades. I remain interested in geo-political goings-on, but domestic? Notsomuch.

My own personal choice, of course, but I am convinced I will live longer now, as it seems when I do make a rare inquiry into the state of our government's domestic affairs, nothing appears to have changed...much.

I continue to pay the taxes rendered on my income and still chuckle at the irony that some minute percentage of what I pay eventually comes back to my bank account.

I have yet to click on this site's Political Forum and have no plans to do so anytime soon.

[87sooner]

Regardless of profession, lower the compensation package and top talent will leave. I lose alot of talented civil and mechanical engineers at the 4 and 8
year marks due to their compensation packages compared to the civilian world.



I've state multiple times on this board that DoD needs to be below $500 billion in 2005 dollars. There are many methods to cutting spending, cutting pay and bennies only jettisons the top talent and retains what is left.

We need targeted cuts that admit we cannot do more with less and we have to let go of certain capabilities.

if "top talent" wants to leave for better pay....f'em.....& good riddance...

[Sooner5030]

if "top talent" wants to leave for better pay....f'em.....& good riddance...

Seriously dude you need to chill....these folks have completed their initial service obligation and served multiple tours in OIF/OEF. Don't let 4 years as an officer in USAF confuse you into thinking you are all-knowing on what it takes to man a military or to serve your country.

I need 16-21% to stay in for a career. BN/BDE commanders and CSMs don't grow on trees. I need the best to stay in.

[Lott's Bandana]

so you feel like the country owes you a pension from 38 till death even if it means our economy collapses?
my aren't you patriotic....

when i took my oath...a pension was the furthest thing from my mind..


a. You are foolish to question the patriotism of a military retiree. I'm sorry, but it is the truth.

b. I took many more oaths than you did, and frankly the last time I did it, the thought of retirement crossed my mind, sure. Very, very few people initially join the Armed Forces because of the pension...you and I included.

Finally, the pension that yes, I feel is owed me, is not the straw on the proverbial camel's back. Your hyperbole is therefore, ineffective.

[diverdog]

so you feel like the country owes you a pension from 38 till death even if it means our economy collapses?
my aren't you patriotic....

when i took my oath...a pension was the furthest thing from my mind..

Statistically being a farmer is a very dangerous job. I would be curious if you thought the AF was more or less dangerous.

[diverdog]

Seriously dude you need to chill....these folks have completed their initial service obligation and served multiple tours in OIF/OEF. Don't let 4 years as an officer in USAF confuse you into thinking you are all-knowing on what it takes to man a military or to serve your country.

I need 16-21% to stay in for a career. BN/BDE commanders and CSMs don't grow on trees. I need the best to stay in.

Which career field.

[Sooner5030]

Which career field.

Engineer

[87sooner]

Statistically being a farmer is a very dangerous job. I would be curious if you thought the AF was more or less dangerous.


jk_soonerfan would argue my job as a scientific analyst was far more dangerous....
but trust me....i risk my life more frequently on the farm....;)

[87sooner]

a. You are foolish to question the patriotism of a military retiree. I'm sorry, but it is the truth.

b. I took many more oaths than you did, and frankly the last time I did it, the thought of retirement crossed my mind, sure. Very, very few people initially join the Armed Forces because of the pension...you and I included.

Finally, the pension that yes, I feel is owed me, is not the straw on the proverbial camel's back. Your hyperbole is therefore, ineffective.

a. i will question the patriotism of anyone that thinks their check is more important than the financial health of this country..
especially an able bodied individual between 40-60 years of age..

[jk the sooner fan]

how many years?
now it matters?

you said "spend some time in combat boots...."
now you're backpeddling....

i was an air force officer for 4 years....that long enuf for you?
my brother did 21 ret. capt...after 11 years enlisted..
my brother in law is retired O6..
my nephew is a capt....flies c-17...

my family knows a little about serving our country...

you took my simple question way too seriously

i had a reason for asking - thanks for your service

as for military retiree's being in lala land - i guess i dont see that

when i retired in 2004, i started my second career - i was in the private sector for 3 years and then switched over to the GS system. There's no way in hell i could live on my CW3 retirement pay. I'll be working until I'm 64ish. I'm a GS-13 and could get by on what I make without the retirement but I work hard for my salary.

I recognize that the federal government is too big and my agency is facing some fairly severe budget cuts. i know that my new retirement system requires me to put in and save quite a bit.


to characterize career military in the light i've seen here just baffles me - i guess i'm not keeping the right company

[diverdog]

Engineer

Thanks.

That can be a tough and rewarding job. You guys get to blow things up and build schools. Do you have any Sappers assigned to you.

[Okla-homey]

Let's be clear on something. It's not a "pension." Pension's "vest" and you generally can't lose them once they vest.

Military retirees receive "retired pay." If military retirees screw-up, they can be recalled to active duty and tried by court-martial. That court can order that the retired pay cease and also that the recalled member, if convicted, be sent to the federal pen at Ft Leavneworth.

And retirees are subject to recall to active duty until they're 62. That's why we have to keep our service apprised of our whereabouts.

Now granted, it would probably take Chinese tanks on the Turner Turnpike to result in my recall, but the government still holds that card.

Me? I don't "live" on my retired pay. I went out and found a civy job because I made peanuts as an AF officer for 23 years and wanted to be able to afford some of life's finer things.

[diverdog]

you took my simple question way too seriously

i had a reason for asking - thanks for your service

as for military retiree's being in lala land - i guess i dont see that

when i retired in 2004, i started my second career - i was in the private sector for 3 years and then switched over to the GS system. There's no way in hell i could live on my CW3 retirement pay. I'll be working until I'm 64ish. I'm a GS-13 and could get by on what I make without the retirement but I work hard for my salary.

I recognize that the federal government is too big and my agency is facing some fairly severe budget cuts. i know that my new retirement system requires me to put in and save quite a bit.


to characterize career military in the light i've seen here just baffles me - i guess i'm not keeping the right company


Jk: thanks for making my point. You are a case where leaving the military was not a huge step in pay or salary. All I am saying is the grass is not greener on the other side.

[diverdog]

Let's be clear on something. It's not a "pension." Pension's "vest" and you generally can't lose them once they vest.

Military retirees receive "retired pay." If military retirees screw-up, they can be recalled to active duty and tried by court-martial. That court can order that the retired pay cease and also that the recalled member, if convicted, be sent to the federal pen at Ft Leavneworth.

And retirees are subject to recall to active duty until they're 62. That's why we have to keep our service apprised of our whereabouts.

Now granted, it would probably take Chinese tanks on the Turner Turnpike to result in my recall, but the government still holds that card.

Me? I don't "live" on my retired pay. I went out and found a civy job because I made peanuts as an AF officer for 23 years and wanted to be able to afford some of life's finer things.

Sorry to say this does not matter to budget cutters.

[Sooner5030]

diverdog,

budget cuts in general are not the problem. The path of least resistance is pay/bennies and across the board cuts. That's what it takes to get through congress. But most of us feel that is the worst way to cut DoD.

Instead someone needs to make the difficult decision on what capabilities we need vs what we can afford.

[diverdog]

diverdog,

budget cuts in general are not the problem. The path of least resistance is pay/bennies and across the board cuts. That's what it takes to get through congress. But most of us feel that is the worst way to cut DoD.

Instead someone needs to make the difficult decision on what capabilities we need vs what we can afford.

True. But as a nation we can pay more taxes so your benefits are not at risk. As I said I would pay more.

I do appreciate 87 because he is a budget cutter and he will put almost anything on the table for cuts .

[usmc-sooner]

you put in 20 you've earned your retirement pay. After 8 years I the benefits of retiring at 40 was a huge consideration.

I don't care what your MOS was or whether you've seen combat. You supported you defended.

The military is a huge overspender, but they aint over spending on the fine men and women who have served.

[87sooner]

True. But as a nation we can pay more taxes so your benefits are not at risk. As I said I would pay more.

I do appreciate 87 because he is a budget cutter and he will put almost anything on the table for cuts .

pensions need to be cut...weapons systems need to be cut...manpower needs to be cut...
waste needs to be cut....and i think enuf fraud/waste/abuse could be cleaned up to not have to cut pensions that much...

prolly need to start a new thread...but i would love to take a knife to medicare/medicaid...

[Turd_Ferguson]

you put in 20 you've earned your retirement pay. After 8 years I the benefits of retiring at 40 was a huge consideration.

I don't care what your MOS was or whether you've seen combat. You supported you defended.

The military is a huge overspender, but they aint over spending on the fine men and women who have served.Great post...

[Lott's Bandana]

a. i will question the patriotism of anyone that thinks their check is more important than the financial health of this country..
especially an able bodied individual between 40-60 years of age..


I have always found it interesting that many individuals that only served one term of enlistment(?), often resent the benefits retired Servicemen and Servicewomen receive because they happened to stay in and complete their careers.

I respect each and every day you served during those 4 years, but I daresay if you had completed a 20-year career, you would feel differently than you do right now.

I was a Department Chief on a multi-billion dollar nuclear submarine, responsible for 30 technicians and the safe navigation of that warship. Many of those Sailors chose to serve only one term of enlistment. It was my duty to train them, and train them well, regardless of how long they stayed. As I was trained by many Chiefs before me.

The last year of my career at sea, away from my 12 and 10 year-old daughters for 287 days, I was paid approximately $26,000.00...this as a senior enlisted after 20-years of service.

As Homey suggested, nobody does it for the money, but I suggest equivalent responsibilities in the civilian world would have warranted 3 or 4 times that amount.

I appreciate the "thank you" every month.

[Sooner_Tuf]

It is gonna happen and it needs to happen. There are tons of military career fields that are not in harms way and should be put on a civilian style retirement plan.

I know so many Tea Party vets who think we spend to much and don't want to raise taxes. Well guess what they had better be careful what they ask for because it might come true. Their retirement is every much on the table as some union air traffic controller.

One other thing, the Pentagon has a said it can't account for trillions in spending. We need to reign them in before we go broke!

We should honor whatever we told them we they signed up. Why is there never a mention of cutting the feed the lazy or Nike and Ninentendo for the ghettos programs?

[usmc-sooner]

I have always found it interesting that many individuals that only served one term of enlistment(?), often resent the benefits retired Servicemen and Servicewomen receive because they happened to stay in and complete their careers.

I respect each and every day you served during those 4 years, but I daresay if you had completed a 20-year career, you would feel differently than you do right now.

I was a Department Chief on a multi-billion dollar nuclear submarine, responsible for 30 technicians and the safe navigation of that warship. Many of those Sailors chose to serve only one term of enlistment. It was my duty to train them, and train them well, regardless of how long they stayed. As I was trained by many Chiefs before me.

The last year of my career at sea, away from my 12 and 10 year-old daughters for 287 days, I was paid approximately $26,000.00...this as a senior enlisted after 20-years of service.

As Homey suggested, nobody does it for the money, but I suggest equivalent responsibilities in the civilian world would have warranted 3 or 4 times that amount.

I appreciate the "thank you" every month.

I don't think a majority of them do, I think it's the one who hated and felt cheated and mistreated for 4 years.

I knew a guy like that, he was lazy, sloppy and didn't get promoted when his peers did. He hated every minute of it and was convinced that the USMC conspired against him when in fact he was just a worthless bum.

[usmc-sooner]

We should honor whatever we told them we they signed up. Why is there never a mention of cutting the feed the lazy or Nike and Ninentendo for the ghettos programs?

agree 100%

able bodied people shouldn't be able to get welfare for more than 6 years. That's long enough to learn an honest trade get an education or get a simple job and get promoted through the ranks to take care of yourself.

[jk the sooner fan]

you put in 20 you've earned your retirement pay. After 8 years I the benefits of retiring at 40 was a huge consideration.

I don't care what your MOS was or whether you've seen combat. You supported you defended.

The military is a huge overspender, but they aint over spending on the fine men and women who have served.

perfectly stated

[87sooner]

I have always found it interesting that many individuals that only served one term of enlistment(?), often resent the benefits retired Servicemen and Servicewomen receive because they happened to stay in and complete their careers.

I respect each and every day you served during those 4 years, but I daresay if you had completed a 20-year career, you would feel differently than you do right now.

I was a Department Chief on a multi-billion dollar nuclear submarine, responsible for 30 technicians and the safe navigation of that warship. Many of those Sailors chose to serve only one term of enlistment. It was my duty to train them, and train them well, regardless of how long they stayed. As I was trained by many Chiefs before me.

The last year of my career at sea, away from my 12 and 10 year-old daughters for 287 days, I was paid approximately $26,000.00...this as a senior enlisted after 20-years of service.

As Homey suggested, nobody does it for the money, but I suggest equivalent responsibilities in the civilian world would have warranted 3 or 4 times that amount.

I appreciate the "thank you" every month.

i don't resent retiree benefits ..
as i said...my brother and brother in law are retirees...my nephew will likely stay in at least 20...
i have no reason to resent...
i loved the time i gave.
i was a 1LT when i got out...(capt selectee)
the air force did a horrible job of managing those in my career field....but i would have stayed in longer had i not had the opportunity to come home and do what i've always dreamed of doing...
however...times have changed..
this country owes so much money to foreign countries...they are now telling us what we can and cannot do...
EVERYONE benefited from the overspending/overborrowing...
now EVERYONE will have to sacrifice to get this country back...

if i were given the knife...i would start with politicians salaries/pensions...

btw....what does a senior enlisted make today?
i know officer pay has doubled since i got out in 91

[Fish&Game]

i don't resent retiree benefits ..
as i said...my brother and brother in law are retirees...my nephew will likely stay in at least 20...
i have no reason to resent...
i loved the time i gave.
i was a 1LT when i got out...(capt selectee)
the air force did a horrible job of managing those in my career field....but i would have stayed in longer had i not had the opportunity to come home and do what i've always dreamed of doing...
however...times have changed..
this country owes so much money to foreign countries...they are now telling us what we can and cannot do...
EVERYONE benefited from the overspending/overborrowing...
now EVERYONE will have to sacrifice to get this country back...

if i were given the knife...i would start with politicians salaries/pensions...

btw....what does a senior enlisted make today?
i know officer pay has doubled since i got out in 91So you're saying those that have put their 20 in the miliitary have not sacrificed...got it.



you put in 20 you've earned your retirement pay. After 8 years I the benefits of retiring at 40 was a huge consideration.

I don't care what your MOS was or whether you've seen combat. You supported you defended.

The military is a huge overspender, but they aint over spending on the fine men and women who have served. This!

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I flew as a loadmaster on C-130's and C5's. I had friends die in air to air crashes, doing LAPSE, air drop or SOLII missions. Military aviation is very dangerous and there are a million ways to die. I loved flying and would do it again. Pensions were never a factor because I got to do a lot of cool chit. Plus I got to see the world. The military saved my life and I would have done it for room and board. That is just me.

Thank you for your service.

[87sooner]

to characterize career military in the light i've seen here just baffles me - i guess i'm not keeping the right company

how are career military being "characterized" here?

[87sooner]

We should honor whatever we told them we they signed up.

i agree to a point...
there should be a sliding scale ...depending on how far someone is into their service....
but i think all current retirees should see their colas come to an end...

[EnragedOUfan]

From an Army standpoint, its absolutely unfair to base the retirement system based on who's served the most combat deployments.

Just like they shouldn't base the NCO promotion system on who's served the most combat deployments.

Ultimately, those of us who serve or served worn the uniform at one point. The uniform represents our country. Ultimately, once we've officially joined the Army, we become needs of the Army. Therefore, where the Army needs us and what the Army wants us to do must happen. Therefore, the Infantry will clear buildings and go on patrols, where as S-1 may or may not deploy but will still hande administrative issues. But ultimately, needs of the Army is in place and needs of the Army is whats happening.

Same thing for all branches. Therefore, if they're going to mess with retirement, either grandfather everyone who's currently in the system, or change it for all, but don't alter it to where people who've deployed more get special treatment than people who've deployed only once or not at all.

Thank the Tea Party for this. They preched cuts and now we're getting cuts. Sucks doesn't it?

[87sooner]

Thank the Tea Party for this. They preched cuts and now we're getting cuts. Sucks doesn't it?

you should thank the tea party..
someone had to say "enuf is enuf"...

[diverdog]

From an Army standpoint, its absolutely unfair to base the retirement system based on who's served the most combat deployments.

Just like they shouldn't base the NCO promotion system on who's served the most combat deployments.

Ultimately, those of us who serve or served worn the uniform at one point. The uniform represents our country. Ultimately, once we've officially joined the Army, we become needs of the Army. Therefore, where the Army needs us and what the Army wants us to do must happen. Therefore, the Infantry will clear buildings and go on patrols, where as S-1 may or may not deploy but will still hande administrative issues. But ultimately, needs of the Army is in place and needs of the Army is whats happening.

Same thing for all branches. Therefore, if they're going to mess with retirement, either grandfather everyone who's currently in the system, or change it for all, but don't alter it to where people who've deployed more get special treatment than people who've deployed only once or not at all.

Thank the Tea Party for this. They preched cuts and now we're getting cuts. Sucks doesn't it?

Unfortunately military retirement is an unfunded mandate. That makes it fair game in the eyes of the budget cutters.

[SoonerStormchaser]

What I were thinkin Bro.




You are what? on yer 3rd deployment?. Much like Fraggle was complaing about the school loans. Ya dont go cuttin folks off at the knees after they have waded 1/2 way across the river on yer advice.

If ya want to change the retirement Pay, then do it for New hires or Peeps with less than 2 years active service.

Yup...deployment #3 since April of '09...the wife did some calculating a few months ago...from the day we've gotten married til the day I get home late this fall, we have been apart over 60% of our marriage.
This is meant as no offense to my brothers and sisters on here who are drawing military retirements, but when you have folks (my father included) who have done ZERO deployments and are drawing a pension because they managed to get lucky over their 20+ years and not have to go into a combat zone, while you're cutting off those who have spilled their blood, sacrificed their families (don't get me started on how no one is paying attention to the fact that military divorces are SKYROCKETING in the past few years), something is really ****ed up! Hopefully those in Congress will use their one good brain cell and tell whoever it is that came up with this to either grandfather EVERYONE in who is currently serving...or just to **** off! Cause if this **** passes and we get screwed, there's gonna be a MASS exodus, as there is no longer any more advantage of serving vs. the private sector.

[diverdog]

Yup...deployment #3 since April of '09...the wife did some calculating a few months ago...from the day we've gotten married til the day I get home late this fall, we have been apart over 60% of our marriage.
This is meant as no offense to my brothers and sisters on here who are drawing military retirements, but when you have folks (my father included) who have done ZERO deployments and are drawing a pension because they managed to get lucky over their 20+ years and not have to go into a combat zone, while you're cutting off those who have spilled their blood, sacrificed their families (don't get me started on how no one is paying attention to the fact that military divorces are SKYROCKETING in the past few years), something is really ****ed up! Hopefully those in Congress will use their one good brain cell and tell whoever it is that came up with this to either grandfather EVERYONE in who is currently serving...or just to **** off! Cause if this **** passes and we get screwed, there's gonna be a MASS exodus, as there is no longer any more advantage of serving vs. the private sector.

Where are you now.

[Turd_Ferguson]

He's back in the sand box at 31000 ft....duh.

[SoonerStormchaser]

Same spot I've been at the past 2 1/2 months...with 3 1/2 more to go...same spot I was in from September last year til January this year...

[walkoffsooner]

Combat vets should get it. The rest of them have reg. jobs

[OutlandTrophy]

Combat vets should get it. The rest of them have reg. jobs

they do?

[olevetonahill]

Combat vets should get it. The rest of them have reg. jobs

Do You have a REG. job? Does that REG. job take you away from your family on a REG. basis? Do you have to Up and move across the country every few years, Changing your childrens Schools and friends?

Some of you people are just stone idiots and some are just stone **** stirrers.

Im all for cuts where ever they are needed. But Like I said in my 1st post in this thread. Ya cant make people change horses in the middle of the river.

Much like the student loans or anything else. Change things if you must But only for those just starting out, That way they know full well what they are getting into.

[sappstuf]

Combat vets should get it. The rest of them have reg. jobs

I had a friend who was a LT in the Medical Service Corps. Basically she was a hospital administrator. She was in Afghanistan working "in the rear with the gear" and you would have probably thought she had one of those "reg. jobs". Up until the morning she was doing PT inside the compound and she was shot and killed by an Al Qeada infiltrator.. This was her with her daughter when I knew her in Okinawa.

http://www.navytimes.com/xml/news/2009/04/navy_afghan_shooting_040109w/040109nt_choe4_800.JPG

[87sooner]

Do You have a REG. job? Does that REG. job take you away from your family on a REG. basis? Do you have to Up and move across the country every few years, Changing your childrens Schools and friends?

Some of you people are just stone idiots and some are just stone **** stirrers.

Im all for cuts where ever they are needed. But Like I said in my 1st post in this thread. Ya cant make people change horses in the middle of the river.

Much like the student loans or anything else. Change things if you must But only for those just starting out, That way they know full well what they are getting into.

join the military and see the world....
ever heard that before?
everyone knows about the lifestyle before they sign up...
it's advertised as one of the PERKS....
i guess maybe they should change it to "join the military and see the world...and we'll give you a fat pension cause moving sux and we should prolly compensate you for it"...

now being separated from family does suck...
if we got out of those ****holes halfway around the world where we're doing no good....everything would be good....

[olevetonahill]

For years I jokingly referred to SSC as "The Frag Magnet" Im begining to think that you probably where one for ****ing real.:rolleyes:

[usmc-sooner]

A regular job you can quit. A regular job can't make you move or go on unaccompanied tours. A regular job can't send you into hostile fire zone. A regular job doesn't. Have you on call 24/7. A regular job doesn't have your *** out their pting so your in good enough shape to be on the job. A regular job doesn't require you to be qualified on a rifle or stand duty and armed guard.

Every Marine regardless of their job (MOS) has to do this. I'm sure its the same in the other branches as well. Believe it takes a toll on your body, mind and family like no regular job could.

[usmc-sooner]

A regular job you can quit. A regular job can't make you move or go on unaccompanied tours. A regular job can't send you into hostile fire zone. A regular job doesn't. Have you on call 24/7. A regular job doesn't have your *** out their pting so your in good enough shape to be on the job. A regular job doesn't require you to be qualified on a rifle or stand duty and armed guard.

Every Marine regardless of their job (MOS) has to do this. I'm sure its the same in the other branches as well. Believe it takes a toll on your body, mind and family like no regular job could.

[OutlandTrophy]

A regular job you can quit. A regular job can't make you move or go on unaccompanied tours. A regular job can't send you into hostile fire zone. A regular job doesn't. Have you on call 24/7. A regular job doesn't have your *** out their pting so your in good enough shape to be on the job. A regular job doesn't require you to be qualified on a rifle or stand duty and armed guard.

Every Marine regardless of their job (MOS) has to do this. I'm sure its the same in the other branches as well. Believe it takes a toll on your body, mind and family like no regular job could.

[Mississippi Sooner]

:pop:

[pphilfran]

I'm glad I stayed out of this thread...

My brother in law...retired Full Bird...West Point grad...Nam veteran...3rd Army Historian...Commandant of the War College...

Is going bonkers over possible cuts...

[soonercruiser]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Federal retirees...non military have better retirements than their civilian counter parts. For my dad to have the same benefits that he receives as an O6 he would need $3 million dollars in the bank. My dad did not contribute a dime to his military pension, has gotten it for 30 years, longer than he served and because of COLAs he makes almost as much as an active duty Coloniel base pay. Tell me how that is sustainable.

Problem is DD....
This sounds exactly like SS and Medicare!
And, those folks haven't even served.
Serving, and putting your life in jeopardy is the "paying in".
(That's what the recruiter's agreement says.)

[87sooner]

I'm glad I stayed out of this thread...

My brother in law...retired Full Bird...West Point grad...Nam veteran...3rd Army Historian...Commandant of the War College...

Is going bonkers over possible cuts...

i really doubt current retirees will be cut...

current active duty maybe...

future....it's got to happen...

[pphilfran]

i really doubt current retirees will be cut...

current active duty maybe...

future....it's got to happen...

Wouldn't surprise me...just have to be careful with the cuts...very careful...

[SoonerStormchaser]

For years I jokingly referred to SSC as "The Frag Magnet" Im begining to think that you probably where one for ****ing real.:rolleyes:

Wait...you talkin to ME on that last part?

[soonercruiser]

Lott:

Here is the deal. I am being an *** on this subject because we have so many current and retired military folks on this board who take every chance they get to trash the government or other government employees. They think the government is to big , that it needs to be cut and they don't want to raise taxes. On the other hand they think they are immuned to any cuts or changes to their lifestyle. Well they are wrong because they are part of the budget problem and they will face cuts. If we do not increase taxes then huge cuts will be made. Some of them have advocated a balanced budget amendment. That would force drastic changes tO their lifestyle. The military is huge and we can get a big bang for the buck by cutting it. Adjusting the military retirement system saves hundreds of billions of dollars.

Most career military folks live in lala land. They have no idea what it is like to work in the civilian world and how good they have it in the military. Most of my friends that got out could not live off what they make in the civilian world without their retirement.


OK, so there has been a lot of back and forth on the subject. But, the bolded text from DD above gets to the bottom line.

As a 29 year AF vet, I am personally sick and tired of the lib Demoncrats always going to the military well first in making cuts! :mad:
Its always the military budget, cuts in force, payday delays, no pay raises, and do more with less on the working end of the military.

Maybe pphilfran should post that graph again of social programs eclipsing the military budget as future expenditures!
Especially for those who haven't "contributed" in some way....IT'S TIME TO MAKE CHANGES IN SOCIAL PROGRAMS! Yes, and my SS too. I have posted many times about the changes that I agree to...raising contribution ceiling for SS, increasing age to receive benefits, and lowering benefits somewhat!

DD would likely point me out as one of the worst refuseniks. As I am now working for the state higher Ed system. That's just happens to be where I got the best offer after military life! And, the wiffie, after being the military stay at home Mom for 40 years has found her dream job at age 60!
So shoot me! I really think DD is a little jealous of some - you know the Class Envy Warfare of the LW!

Practically no conservative posting here is totally opposed to real "Shared Sacrifice". But, shared sacrifice" is just LW code for cut the military first!
And, those in my situation are just plain tired of seeing it happen time after time, after time! :mad:
It's time to make changes to social programs first - because that's were the biggest bang for the buck is.

[soonercruiser]

Lott:

Here is the deal. I am being an *** on this subject because we have so many current and retired military folks on this board who take every chance they get to trash the government or other government employees. They think the government is to big , that it needs to be cut and they don't want to raise taxes. On the other hand they think they are immuned to any cuts or changes to their lifestyle. Well they are wrong because they are part of the budget problem and they will face cuts. If we do not increase taxes then huge cuts will be made. Some of them have advocated a balanced budget amendment. That would force drastic changes tO their lifestyle. The military is huge and we can get a big bang for the buck by cutting it. Adjusting the military retirement system saves hundreds of billions of dollars.

Most career military folks live in lala land. They have no idea what it is like to work in the civilian world and how good they have it in the military. Most of my friends that got out could not live off what they make in the civilian world without their retirement.


OK, so there has been a lot of back and forth on the subject. But, the bolded text from DD above gets to the bottom line.

As a 29 year AF vet, I am personally sick and tired of the lib Demoncrats always going to the military well first in making cuts! :mad:
Its always the military budget, cuts in force, payday delays, no pay raises, and do more with less on the working end of the military.

Maybe Phil should post that graph again of social programs eclipsing the military budget as future expenditures!
Especially for those who haven't "contributed" in some way....IT'S TIME TO MAKE CHANGES IN SOCIAL PROGRAMS! Yes, and my SS too. I have posted many times about the changes that I agree to...raising contribution ceiling for SS, increasing age to receive benefits, and lowering benefits somewhat!

DD would likely point me out as one of the worst refuseniks. As I am now working for the state higher Ed system. That's just happens to be where I got the best offer after military life!
So shoot me! I really think DD is a little jealous of some - you know the Class Envy Warfare of the LW!

Practically no conservative posting here is totally opposed to real "Shared Sacrifice". But, shared sacrifice" is just LW code for cut the military first!
And, those in my situation are just plain tired of seeing it happen time after time, after time! :mad:
It's time to make changes to social programs first - because that's were the best bang for the buck is.

[pphilfran]

Couldn't find it...so I threw this together...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/1234.jpg

[olevetonahill]

Wait...you talkin to ME on that last part?

No, Ya dumas. I were talking to that 4 an out 1st Louie.:P

[Sooner in Tampa]

See Deadliest Catch. 62 would be the retirement age.
Stupidest ****ing thing posted in the board in a loooong time!!!!

And that's saying something.

[Fish&Game]

Yup...deployment #3 since April of '09...the wife did some calculating a few months ago...from the day we've gotten married til the day I get home late this fall, we have been apart over 60% of our marriage.
This is meant as no offense to my brothers and sisters on here who are drawing military retirements, but when you have folks (my father included) who have done ZERO deployments and are drawing a pension because they managed to get lucky over their 20+ years and not have to go into a combat zone, while you're cutting off those who have spilled their blood, sacrificed their families (don't get me started on how no one is paying attention to the fact that military divorces are SKYROCKETING in the past few years), something is really ****ed up! Hopefully those in Congress will use their one good brain cell and tell whoever it is that came up with this to either grandfather EVERYONE in who is currently serving...or just to **** off! Cause if this **** passes and we get screwed, there's gonna be a MASS exodus, as there is no longer any more advantage of serving vs. the private sector.By the end of this deployment....I will have 17yrs of service and will have been deployed for over 47 months since the end of 04'. Will have missed almost half of my 9yr olds and 1/3 of my 12yr olds lives being deployed in that time.

SSC I agree with you for the most part, but I believe that anyone who has given 20+ years of their lives in service to our country, combat zone or not, have sacrificed more than anyone in our country......and deserve the retirement they have earned.....

[sappstuf]

Couldn't find it...so I threw this together...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/1234.jpg

Phil,

what about service on our debt?

[badger]

I am personally sick and tired of the lib Demoncrats always going to the military well first in making cuts!

I'm not saying I want the military cut, but you know how Republicans always say tax cuts for the rich make sense because they pay more in? Democrats might also be using the same logic, saying that military cuts make more sense because the military budget is one of the largest budgets.

I'm not trying to start (or continue) an argument, it's just the way it is, it seems. You cut spending where you spend money, just like you cut taxes where you tax.

[GKeeper316]

Couldn't find it...so I threw this together...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/1234.jpg

are these numbers adjusted for inflation?

i mean ya we were spending a smaller dollar amount on this stuff in 1978, but hell man, gas was like 75 cents a gallon.

[soonercruiser]

Couldn't find it...so I threw this together...

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/1234.jpg

Thanks Phil...but....
Not the one I was looking for.
You had posted one on out-year projections that had social programs taking off like a rocket; while military climbed, but only steadily.

[soonercruiser]

i really doubt current retirees will be cut...

current active duty maybe...

future....it's got to happen...

Wrong!
In the military top 5 list is healthcare....including current retirees.

[IndySooner]

Wrong!
In the military top 5 list is healthcare....including current retirees.

And now we're full circle to what REALLY needs to be addressed.......just not the way the current politicians have. Healthcare costs are choking businesses and the government alike. Something has to be done about the cost of healthcare, NOT insurance.

[soonercruiser]

Phil,
I am looking back through your previous posts, and haven't found it so far.
But here is a link, and text from post #69.
http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3302210#post3302210



Defense may be #1 this year but it won't be for long...

2010
Defense 693.6 billion
SS 622.2 billion
Medicare 451.6
Total Receipts 2.162 trillion

2011
Defense 768.2 billion
SS 748.5
Medicare 494.3
Total Receipts 2.174 trillion

2013
Defense 675.8
SS 778.6
Medicare 534.4
Total Receipts 3.003 trillion (40%+ growth in two years)


2015
Defense 671.8
SS 861.9
Medicare 589.2
Total Receipts 3.584 Trillion (16%+ growth in two years)

2016
Defense 679.8
SS 909.4
Medicare 638.4
Total Receipts 3.819 trillion (7% growth in one year)

[87sooner]

Wrong!
In the military top 5 list is healthcare....including current retirees.

i think everyone's healthcare should be cut...
especially prescription drugs...

my mother in law was on a laundry list of crap that did nothing for her quality of life...
doctors prescribe so much **** and we pick up the tab...
time to put an end to that...
you want drugs that do nothing...pay for them yourself...

[Sooner_Tuf]

Greater service to our country? Vets or Welfare Bums? Seems so simple....

Regular job? In the seventeen years I was in I went as long as two years without seeing my children. Maybe I don't deserve anything but my ex-wife and kids certainly made some sacrifices to make up for my absence.

[StoopTroup]

You know....

We all want Americans to be comfortable and be patriotic and support our Country when called on. This thread somehow seems to really disconnect us as Americans. When we are born in this Country we immediately become entitled to things other people in the World aren't entitled to. For 235 years and really long before that, we have been a Country that has always done whatever it takes to get the job done when called on.

Right now we have economic problems and really have flexed our Military Muscle in front of the rest of the World. Everyday I see people who have been injured and returned Home recognized and given help that maybe didn't happen in previous Wars. Is it enough? Probably not. The Wives and Children of those that have been killed, have they received due compensation for the loss of their Father/Husband/Mother/Wife? I'd have to think there is no dollar value you could put on such a life.

I'm not sure what is the right thing to do but arguing seems to accomplish very little and it also seems to be creating some hatred.

I'd like to think that those who receive money for their Service and need it are doing something positive to help themselves and that those who have been lucky enough to complete years and years of service but receive dough they don't really need...that maybe they use it to help others who do.

This is a great Country and I think this last War really brought out our patriotic side when it started but as it seems to be coming to an end we seem to be seeing a less than patriotic attitude as we begin to tighten the Military Coffers.

I hope we continue to help those in real need and those that can still be a helpful member of Society do so and continue to help their fellow man instead of worry about what they are owed if they have no need for it and have nothing in mind but getting what's owed. That just doesn't seem like a very patriotic act when we think about all the freedoms this Country allows us.

[OutlandTrophy]

exactly

[diverdog]

OK, so there has been a lot of back and forth on the subject. But, the bolded text from DD above gets to the bottom line.

As a 29 year AF vet, I am personally sick and tired of the lib Demoncrats always going to the military well first in making cuts! :mad:
Its always the military budget, cuts in force, payday delays, no pay raises, and do more with less on the working end of the military.

Maybe pphilfran should post that graph again of social programs eclipsing the military budget as future expenditures!
Especially for those who haven't "contributed" in some way....IT'S TIME TO MAKE CHANGES IN SOCIAL PROGRAMS! Yes, and my SS too. I have posted many times about the changes that I agree to...raising contribution ceiling for SS, increasing age to receive benefits, and lowering benefits somewhat!

DD would likely point me out as one of the worst refuseniks. As I am now working for the state higher Ed system. That's just happens to be where I got the best offer after military life! And, the wiffie, after being the military stay at home Mom for 40 years has found her dream job at age 60!
So shoot me! I really think DD is a little jealous of some - you know the Class Envy Warfare of the LW!

Practically no conservative posting here is totally opposed to real "Shared Sacrifice". But, shared sacrifice" is just LW code for cut the military first!
And, those in my situation are just plain tired of seeing it happen time after time, after time! :mad:
It's time to make changes to social programs first - because that's were the biggest bang for the buck is.


Cruiser:

I am not jealous. You are a world class hypocrite....period. You come on here and blast unions and teacher pensions all the while you are living of the largess of the taxpayer as a double dipper. At every turn you advocate cuts for everyone else and blast me for wanting to raise taxes. Now you are whinnig because YOUR precious entitlement are being looked at by budget cutters. Boohoo. What did you think would happen when you support smaller government and balanced budgets?


Secondly show me anywhere in the civilian world where an individual can work 20 years and start to immediately draw a pension. The changes to military retirement appear to be fair and no one is talking about getting rid of military retirement....they are just restructuring it for the future. The board that made these recommendation are from the civilian world so you are now getting a taste of what everyone gets with retirement benefits. You want private sector solutions to budget issues...well you got it.

[diverdog]

Thanks Phil...but....
Not the one I was looking for.
You had posted one on out-year projections that had social programs taking off like a rocket; while military climbed, but only steadily.

You cannot compare the two...so don't try.

[soonercruiser]

Cruiser:

I am not jealous. You are a world class hypocrite....period. You come on here and blast unions and teacher pensions all the while you are living of the largess of the taxpayer as a double dipper. At every turn you advocate cuts for everyone else and blast me for wanting to raise taxes. Now you are whinnig because YOUR precious entitlement are being looked at by budget cutters. Boohoo. What did you think would happen when you support smaller government and balanced budgets?


Secondly show me anywhere in the civilian world where an individual can work 20 years and start to immediately draw a pension. The changes to military retirement appear to be fair and no one is talking about getting rid of military retirement....they are just restructuring it for the future. The board that made these recommendation are from the civilian world so you are now getting a taste of what everyone gets with retirement benefits. You want private sector solutions to budget issues...well you got it.

DD,
What you say above (bolded) is simply a bold-faced lie! And, you know it is!
I have posted many times on this forum and the OUI of what changes we need and would be accepted, even in my future entitlements.
Like Obama - YOU LIE!!!

My current argument is that the shared sacrifice needs to START somewhere other than the military this time!
(BTW - you are jealous and bitter (it shows on you) - I love the way you constantly use double-dipper too.) :rolleyes:

[yermom]

wheres the lie in the fact that you think everyone else should sacrifice first?

[87sooner]

You know....

We all want Americans to be comfortable and be patriotic and support our Country when called on. This thread somehow seems to really disconnect us as Americans. When we are born in this Country we immediately become entitled to things other people in the World aren't entitled to. For 235 years and really long before that, we have been a Country that has always done whatever it takes to get the job done when called on.

Right now we have economic problems and really have flexed our Military Muscle in front of the rest of the World. Everyday I see people who have been injured and returned Home recognized and given help that maybe didn't happen in previous Wars. Is it enough? Probably not. The Wives and Children of those that have been killed, have they received due compensation for the loss of their Father/Husband/Mother/Wife? I'd have to think there is no dollar value you could put on such a life.

I'm not sure what is the right thing to do but arguing seems to accomplish very little and it also seems to be creating some hatred.

I'd like to think that those who receive money for their Service and need it are doing something positive to help themselves and that those who have been lucky enough to complete years and years of service but receive dough they don't really need...that maybe they use it to help others who do.

This is a great Country and I think this last War really brought out our patriotic side when it started but as it seems to be coming to an end we seem to be seeing a less than patriotic attitude as we begin to tighten the Military Coffers.

I hope we continue to help those in real need and those that can still be a helpful member of Society do so and continue to help their fellow man instead of worry about what they are owed if they have no need for it and have nothing in mind but getting what's owed. That just doesn't seem like a very patriotic act when we think about all the freedoms this Country allows us.

this is a pretty good post...

i would like to add that those at the top...who benefited the most from the overspending and the govt loopholes.......should sacrifice first and most...

[diverdog]

this is a pretty good post...

i would like to add that those at the top...who benefited the most from the overspending and the govt loopholes.......should sacrifice first and most...

That would be Wall Street, banks, the Rich and retirees.