Adam & Eve were E.T.'s

[MR2-Sooner86]

NASA Researchers: DNA Building Blocks Can Be Made in Space (http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/dna-meteorites.html)


NASA-funded researchers have evidence that some building blocks of DNA, the molecule that carries the genetic instructions for life, found in meteorites were likely created in space. The research gives support to the theory that a "kit" of ready-made parts created in space and delivered to Earth by meteorite and comet impacts assisted the origin of life.

"People have been discovering components of DNA in meteorites since the 1960's, but researchers were unsure whether they were really created in space or if instead they came from contamination by terrestrial life," said Dr. Michael Callahan of NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. "For the first time, we have three lines of evidence that together give us confidence these DNA building blocks actually were created in space." Callahan is lead author of a paper on the discovery appearing in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America.

The discovery adds to a growing body of evidence that the chemistry inside asteroids and comets is capable of making building blocks of essential biological molecules. For example, previously, these scientists at the Goddard Astrobiology Analytical Laboratory have found amino acids in samples of comet Wild 2 from NASA’s Stardust mission, and in various carbon-rich meteorites. Amino acids are used to make proteins, the workhorse molecules of life, used in everything from structures like hair to enzymes, the catalysts that speed up or regulate chemical reactions.

In the new work, the Goddard team ground up samples of twelve carbon-rich meteorites, nine of which were recovered from Antarctica. They extracted each sample with a solution of formic acid and ran them through a liquid chromatograph, an instrument that separates a mixture of compounds. They further analyzed the samples with a mass spectrometer, which helps determine the chemical structure of compounds.

The team found adenine and guanine, which are components of DNA called nucleobases, as well as hypoxanthine and xanthine. DNA resembles a spiral ladder; adenine and guanine connect with two other nucleobases to form the rungs of the ladder. They are part of the code that tells the cellular machinery which proteins to make. Hypoxanthine and xanthine are not found in DNA, but are used in other biological processes.

Also, in two of the meteorites, the team discovered for the first time trace amounts of three molecules related to nucleobases: purine, 2,6-diaminopurine, and 6,8-diaminopurine; the latter two almost never used in biology. These compounds have the same core molecule as nucleobases but with a structure added or removed.

It's these nucleobase-related molecules, called nucleobase analogs, which provide the first piece of evidence that the compounds in the meteorites came from space and not terrestrial contamination. "You would not expect to see these nucleobase analogs if contamination from terrestrial life was the source, because they're not used in biology, aside from one report of 2,6-diaminopurine occurring in a virus (cyanophage S-2L)," said Callahan. "However, if asteroids are behaving like chemical 'factories' cranking out prebiotic material, you would expect them to produce many variants of nucleobases, not just the biological ones, due to the wide variety of ingredients and conditions in each asteroid."

The second piece of evidence involved research to further rule out the possibility of terrestrial contamination as a source of these molecules. The team also analyzed an eight-kilogram (17.64-pound) sample of ice from Antarctica, where most of the meteorites in the study were found, with the same methods used on the meteorites. The amounts of the two nucleobases, plus hypoxanthine and xanthine, found in the ice were much lower -- parts per trillion -- than in the meteorites, where they were generally present at several parts per billion. More significantly, none of the nucleobase analogs were detected in the ice sample. One of the meteorites with nucleobase analog molecules fell in Australia, and the team also analyzed a soil sample collected near the fall site. As with the ice sample, the soil sample had none of the nucleobase analog molecules present in the meteorite.

Thirdly, the team found these nucleobases -- both the biological and non-biological ones -- were produced in a completely non-biological reaction. "In the lab, an identical suite of nucleobases and nucleobase analogs were generated in non-biological chemical reactions containing hydrogen cyanide, ammonia, and water. This provides a plausible mechanism for their synthesis in the asteroid parent bodies, and supports the notion that they are extraterrestrial," says Callahan.

"In fact, there seems to be a 'goldilocks' class of meteorite, the so-called CM2 meteorites, where conditions are just right to make more of these molecules," adds Callahan.

The team includes Callahan and Drs. Jennifer C. Stern, Daniel P. Glavin, and Jason P. Dworkin of NASA Goddard's Astrobiology Analytical Laboratory; Ms. Karen E. Smith and Dr. Christopher H. House of Pennsylvania State University, University Park, Pa.; Dr. H. James Cleaves II of the Carnegie Institution of Washington, Washington, DC; and Dr. Josef Ruzicka of Thermo Fisher Scientific, Somerset, N.J. The research was funded by the NASA Astrobiology Institute, the Goddard Center for Astrobiology, the NASA Astrobiology: Exobiology and Evolutionary Biology Program, and the NASA Postdoctoral Program.

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[MelloYello]

Interesting research based on the scientific process, but I think I'll stick to an antiquated book that was written by a collection of psychotic men and mistranslated and edited by other men with agendas to explain how I came to be here.

[soonerhubs]

Interesting research based on the scientific process, but I think I'll stick to an antiquated book that was written by a collection of psychotic men and mistranslated and edited by other men with agendas to explain how I came to be here.

Go easy on Hawking and his pals. ;). They mean well.

[JohnnyMack]

Go easy on Hawking and his pals. ;). They mean well.

Hey, pipe down white salamander boy. :P

[soonerhubs]

Hey, pipe down white salamander boy. :P

Heh!

[MR2-Sooner86]

Interesting research based on the scientific process, but I think I'll stick to an antiquated book that was written by a collection of psychotic men and mistranslated and edited by other men with agendas to explain how I came to be here.

Behold the face of God!

http://www.meteorlab.com/METEORLAB2001dev/images/murchy2.jpg

[tator]

Saw this on a Through the Wormhole episode. Scientists are also close to being able to reproduce the combination of events and environment to start the process again in labs to prove the theory.

[Partial Qualifier]

Wow, so elements in our bodies also exist in space? What's next: a revelation dying stars contributed molecules which ultimately became part of my typing fingers? L.O.L.

This is neat and all, but how long will it take for scientists to prove by process of elimination that an intelligent being is required to, you know, actually create life?

[achiro]

How about someone figures out the mathematical probability that those DNA building blocks, other elements, exact proper temperatures, sunlight, oxygen, or whatever else it takes could come together on Earth in such a way that would create life. Then add in the mathematical probability that the life that is created in that way could then split, evolve, etc, to create a couple of separate species. I won't even ask for the probability that it would take to do all that then evolve to create the multiple species around today. Oh and be sure to add in the time frame(age of Earth) as a limiting factor.
I'll await your answer. TYIA

[MelloYello]

How about someone figures out the mathematical probability that those DNA building blocks, other elements, exact proper temperatures, sunlight, oxygen, or whatever else it takes could come together on Earth in such a way that would create life. Then add in the mathematical probability that the life that is created in that way could then split, evolve, etc, to create a couple of separate species. I won't even ask for the probability that it would take to do all that then evolve to create the multiple species around today. Oh and be sure to add in the time frame(age of Earth) as a limiting factor.
I'll await your answer. TYIA

How large is the universe? 300 sextillion stars? The fact that we exist in our present form, having started as nothing more than elements, is truly mind-boggling, but so is the size and contents of the universe. Statistically speaking, we should exist.

[MelloYello]

Wow, so elements in our bodies also exist in space? What's next: a revelation dying stars contributed molecules which ultimately became part of my typing fingers? L.O.L.

This is neat and all, but how long will it take for scientists to prove by process of elimination that an intelligent being is required to, you know, actually create life?

Is it required? What, then, created this intelligent being that created us? Oh, He/She/It has always just been, you say? How is that any different than me saying the universe has always been? You've just moved the origin up one level to something you can't ever prove exists. I can point to scientific data to prove that the universe exists.

[Partial Qualifier]

Statistically speaking, we should exist.

Whay's that? Forget about the molecules we're made of, how exactly does a living organism get it's life?

I think the odds Achiro spoke of could be stretched out even more. Way more.

At some point, a "Creator" becomes one of (if not the) only logical explanation.

[JohnnyMack]

Can I post the picture of Jesus riding a dinosaur yet?

[Partial Qualifier]

I can point to scientific data to prove that the universe exists.

Can you point to scientific data that proves how life comes to be? Let me know.

[soonercruiser]

Behold the face of God!

http://www.meteorlab.com/METEORLAB2001dev/images/murchy2.jpg

Rock breaks genetic scissors!
:D

[Partial Qualifier]

Can I post the picture of Jesus riding a dinosaur yet?

yeah, what's taking you so long?

[JohnnyMack]

Can you point to scientific data that proves how life comes to be? Let me know.

http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/t/the_holy_bible-2884.jpg

[achiro]

Statistically speaking, we should exist.

I'm waiting on those statistics.:rolleyes:

[JohnnyMack]

How about someone figures out the mathematical probability that those DNA building blocks, other elements, exact proper temperatures, sunlight, oxygen, or whatever else it takes could come together on Earth in such a way that would create life. Then add in the mathematical probability that the life that is created in that way could then split, evolve, etc, to create a couple of separate species. I won't even ask for the probability that it would take to do all that then evolve to create the multiple species around today. Oh and be sure to add in the time frame(age of Earth) as a limiting factor.
I'll await your answer. TYIA

You're right. **** it. Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Will you pick me up on your way to church on Sunday?

[achiro]

You're right. **** it. Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Will you pick me up on your way to church on Sunday?

It's funny Johnny, folks like you always want to try and make fun of Christians by saying things indicating that we don't believe in science. The problem with that is that when I ask for some science that you can't provide you try the sarcastic approach.
Yes, I am a Christian but I don't think a person has to believe in Christ to question this sort of stuff. Math and science, you can't have one without the other. I'm just asking for one to back the other up. Until it can be done then it is just another theory.

[NormanPride]

odds aren't that weird given the time involved...

[JohnnyMack]

It's funny Johnny, folks like you always want to try and make fun of Christians by saying things indicating that we don't believe in science. The problem with that is that when I ask for some science that you can't provide you try the sarcastic approach.
Yes, I am a Christian but I don't think a person has to believe in Christ to question this sort of stuff. Math and science, you can't have one without the other. I'm just asking for one to back the other up. Until it can be done then it is just another theory.

http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-What-Fossils-Say-Matters/dp/0231139624/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1313080022&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/Greatest-Show-Earth-Evidence-Evolution/dp/B004AYCWY4/ref=pd_sim_b_6

http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Watchmaker-Evidence-Evolution-Universe/dp/0393315703/ref=pd_sim_b_3

Read some Richard Dawkins, he's spent most of his professional career explaining this. Or you could watch Kirk Cameron play with a banana.

[MelloYello]

Until it can be done then it is just another theory.

I agree with this. It's all speculation (but so is religion). Science can advance our understanding, but ultimately there will always be questions we can't answer.

[Chuck Bao]

I had always suspected as much.

You know the ETs had been jizzing on rocks and shooting them out into space a few billion years already and then smoking a cigar and drinking single malt whiskey straight up afterwards.

Now that we have achieved self-awareness, they are just messing with us with the abductions and the anal probes.

Well so long, and thanks for all the fish, you damn rocking humping basterds.

[NormanPride]

Heh. Aliens that drink single malt scotch make me smile. I like this universe.

[sappstuf]

Heh. Aliens that drink single malt scotch make me smile. I like this universe.

It is good to know that we are not from the trailer park side of the universe...

[NormanPride]

Exactly. Our genetic makeup came from only the finest alien scrotum.

[OhU1]

How about someone figures out the mathematical probability that those DNA building blocks, other elements, exact proper temperatures, sunlight, oxygen, or whatever else it takes could come together on Earth in such a way that would create life. Then add in the mathematical probability that the life that is created in that way could then split, evolve, etc, to create a couple of separate species. I won't even ask for the probability that it would take to do all that then evolve to create the multiple species around today. Oh and be sure to add in the time frame(age of Earth) as a limiting factor.
I'll await your answer. TYIA

The probability - 100% - we are here. It does not makes sense to talk about something that has already occurred and then ask what are the odds of it happening.

The scientific question is: "life exists - what is the explanation?" Not "why does life exist?" or "what are the odds life would exist as it does?" We know life has formed on Earth, asking what the odds are of it happening is nonsensical.

Your questions appear to be a play on the common creationist fallacy of looking at the way things are as being the end "goal" and then declaring the odds as being too fantastic to be explained by natural processes. The only explanation left then is a God (always a Christian God). This fallacy is typically embellished with arbitrary "statistics" and odds based on ignorance or intentional misrepresentation of evolution and science.

You should submit a paper to the scientific journals for publication falsifying evolution because it is “statistically impossible”. That’s what you’re implying isn’t it?

[sappstuf]

Isn't the inception of life and evolution two completely different things?

[1890MilesToNorman]

I thought representative Anthony David Weiner was the origin of life?? :confused:

[achiro]

The probability - 100% - we are here. It does not makes sense to talk about something that has already occurred and then ask what are the odds of it happening.

Your argument makes no sense. It is based on the assumption that we know exactly how we are here. If we knew the answer to that then there would be no argument. As it stands, everything is based on theory, speculation, and/or faith. The main argument against creationism has always been the science/math one. I'm asking that the same argument be used to prove that it could even happen that way, but it can't.

[cccasooner2]

I'll defer to Fraggle on this one.

[Caboose]

Your argument makes no sense. It is based on the assumption that we know exactly how we are here. If we knew the answer to that then there would be no argument. As it stands, everything is based on theory, speculation, and/or faith. The main argument against creationism has always been the science/math one. I'm asking that the same argument be used to prove that it could even happen that way, but it can't.

I dont think you understand what you are saying.

[JohnnyMack]

It's funny Johnny, folks like you always want to try and make fun of Christians by saying things indicating that we don't believe in science. The problem with that is that when I ask for some science that you can't provide you try the sarcastic approach.
Yes, I am a Christian but I don't think a person has to believe in Christ to question this sort of stuff. Math and science, you can't have one without the other. I'm just asking for one to back the other up. Until it can be done then it is just another theory.

I'm not a scientist, a biologist or an astrophysicist. I'm just a guy who happens to believe that science can explain anything. To answer the question on the origin of life itself, I really think it was galactic happenstance. I think this universe is so massive and so old that trying to put it in terms of measure that we can comprehend isn't possible. Miles and kilometers or decades and centuries are things that don't even register to the universe. Our entire planet and all it's history is an infinitesimal speck on our small galaxy and said galaxy is a small one as it relates to others in the universe. The idea that somewhere, sometime in the vast depths of our universe that some bacteria developed on a world not dissimilar to ours is pretty easy for me to accept. Whether or not that bacteria became something resembling a human, I don't know, but I certainly can't rule it out.

You can't prove to me that the Christian god is the creator of worlds anymore than I can disprove it. I acknowledge that. But you also can't disprove the existence of a great flying spaghetti monster, ruling over us all. All I can do is look at the evidence and make an educated decision. For me, it's science. For you it's religion. To me, there's a lot more right with science than there is religion. Christianity is only one of a multitude of religions that exist. It's no better or worse than Islam, Buddhism, Scientology or any now extinct mythology from any region of this globe.

[sappstuf]

I'm not a scientist, a biologist or an astrophysicist. I'm just a guy who happens to believe that science can explain anything. To answer the question on the origin of life itself, I really think it was galactic happenstance. I think this universe is so massive and so old that trying to put it in terms of measure that we can comprehend isn't possible. Miles and kilometers or decades and centuries are things that don't even register to the universe. Our entire planet and all it's history is an infinitesimal speck on our small galaxy and said galaxy is a small one as it relates to others in the universe. The idea that somewhere, sometime in the vast depths of our universe that some bacteria developed on a world not dissimilar to ours is pretty easy for me to accept. Whether or not that bacteria became something resembling a human, I don't know, but I certainly can't rule it out.

You can't prove to me that the Christian god is the creator of worlds anymore than I can disprove it. I acknowledge that. But you also can't disprove the existence of a great flying spaghetti monster, ruling over us all. All I can do is look at the evidence and make an educated decision. For me, it's science. For you it's religion. To me, there's a lot more right with science than there is religion. Christianity is only one of a multitude of religions that exist. It's no better or worse than Islam, Buddhism, Scientology or any now extinct mythology from any region of this globe.

In another words, you have "faith" that it happened.... ;)

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm waiting on those statistics.:rolleyes:

Infinitesimal probability x nigh-infinite opportunity = unity.

[OU_Sooners75]

How can you have a creator when time didn't start until the big bang occurred?

[GKeeper316]

Wow, so elements in our bodies also exist in space? What's next: a revelation dying stars contributed molecules which ultimately became part of my typing fingers? L.O.L.

This is neat and all, but how long will it take for scientists to prove by process of elimination that an intelligent being is required to, you know, actually create life?

so who created the intelligent being?

i love this about christians... they expect everyone to just believe "god" created man, but offer up no explanation as to where thier "god" came from. if it takes an intelligence to create life, then obviously some intelligence must have created "god", right? and some intelligence created that intelligence and so on... its cause and effect with no first cause, a logical fallacy.

[GKeeper316]

How about someone figures out the mathematical probability that those DNA building blocks, other elements, exact proper temperatures, sunlight, oxygen, or whatever else it takes could come together on Earth in such a way that would create life. Then add in the mathematical probability that the life that is created in that way could then split, evolve, etc, to create a couple of separate species. I won't even ask for the probability that it would take to do all that then evolve to create the multiple species around today. Oh and be sure to add in the time frame(age of Earth) as a limiting factor.
I'll await your answer. TYIA

you're making the assumption that life was created because of, not in spite of it's environment.

giant logic flaw.

[SCOUT]

so who created the intelligent being?

i love this about christians... they expect everyone to just believe "god" created man, but offer up no explanation as to where thier "god" came from. if it takes an intelligence to create life, then obviously some intelligence must have created "god", right? and some intelligence created that intelligence and so on... its cause and effect with no first cause, a logical fallacy.

Are you describing the big bang at the same time?

[yermom]

so who created the intelligent being?

i love this about christians... they expect everyone to just believe "god" created man, but offer up no explanation as to where thier "god" came from. if it takes an intelligence to create life, then obviously some intelligence must have created "god", right? and some intelligence created that intelligence and so on... its cause and effect with no first cause, a logical fallacy.

i'll defer to Fraggle's sig line :D

as for probability, let's roll 1,000,000 6 sided dice. what are the odds that you roll the same 1,000,000 dice exactly the same again? does that mean it was impossible to do it the first time?

by most counts, the universe has been around about 14 billion years. that's a lot of time for random things to happen. the earth is generally accepted to have been around about 1/3 of that time.

[MR2-Sooner86]

THERE'S GOTTA BE A CREATOR!!!
THERE'S GOTTA BE A CREATOR!!!
THERE'S GOTTA BE A CREATOR!!!
THERE'S GOTTA BE A CREATOR!!!

It's funny how this debate shifts from one to the other. They're arguing on this thread for Deism, however the Christian Bible and religion is based on Theism.

It's impossible to determine whether everything is by chance or something higher in science we don't know about or if something all powerful started it all. We can't answer that.

What we do know is that it didn't take 6,000 years, two white people in the Middle East to start us all off, a big boat carrying all the animals, and it was all recorded in a book that ignores logic.

So even if you can show that the odds are in your favor for Deism, you shot your own foot because you're admitting evolution, a 5 billion year old earth, a round earth, gravity, and everything that really doesn't help Christianity's Theistic case.

[GKeeper316]

Are you describing the big bang at the same time?

see stephen hawking.

[Partial Qualifier]

i'll defer to Fraggle's sig line :D

as for probability, let's roll 1,000,000 6 sided dice. what are the odds that you roll the same 1,000,000 dice exactly the same again? does that mean it was impossible to do it the first time?

by most counts, the universe has been around about 14 billion years. that's a lot of time for random things to happen. the earth is generally accepted to have been around about 1/3 of that time.

Got any theories or ideas how life randomly came to be? Any wild guesses?

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck - I had the same thoughts as you, but when you let yourself really explore this subject - including what defines 'life' - Seriously, life randomly manifested itself? Think about it. Molecules which living things are made of, sure. But life?? Come on.

[Partial Qualifier]

It's funny how this debate shifts from one to the other. They're arguing on this thread for Deism, however the Christian Bible and religion is based on Theism.

It's impossible to determine whether everything is by chance or something higher in science we don't know about or if something all powerful started it all. We can't answer that.

What we do know is that it didn't take 6,000 years, two white people in the Middle East to start us all off, a big boat carrying all the animals, and it was all recorded in a book that ignores logic.

So even if you can show that the odds are in your favor for Deism, you shot your own foot because you're admitting evolution, a 5 billion year old earth, a round earth, gravity, and everything that really doesn't help Christianity's Theistic case.

You're not making much sense here. You pigeonholed the big majority of those who believe in a creator as underinformed Christians -- and not very effectively, I might add.

Besides, most (all?) Christians I know realize the "days" in Genesis weren't actually 24-hour periods.

How about you? Let's hear your case for how or why life originated. Not molecules, not amino acids, just living things. Why and/or how did they come to be.

[GKeeper316]

You're not making much sense here. You pigeonholed the big majority of those who believe in a creator as underinformed Christians -- and not very effectively, I might add.

Besides, most (all?) Christians I know realize the "days" in Genesis weren't actually 24-hour periods.

How about you? Let's hear your case for how or why life originated. Not molecules, not amino acids, just living things. Why and/or how did they come to be.

if you take into account the vast amount of time it took, then it isn't much of a stretch for a small microbial lifeform to reproduce itself with improvements, generation after generation. things such as light sensing cells evolve into eyeballs. appendages for movement evolving into legs and so on and so on.

to believe some omnipotent being that watches every single thing that happens everywhere in the universe simultaniously made us all is the bigger stretch. not to mention arrogant and very humanocentric.

[OutlandTrophy]

I like Evangelical Athiests.

[pphilfran]

I find it much easier to believe that a small object with nearly unlimited mass somehow became critical and then explodes into everything we currently see...

[Partial Qualifier]

if you take into account the vast amount of time it took, then it isn't much of a stretch for a small microbial lifeform to reproduce itself with improvements, generation after generation. things such as light sensing cells evolve into eyeballs. appendages for movement evolving into legs and so on and so on.

to believe some omnipotent being that watches every single thing that happens everywhere in the universe simultaniously made us all is the bigger stretch. not to mention arrogant and very humanocentric.

See I don't disagree that life evolved from simple organisms. Just because I give weight to the idea that something intelligent had a hand in our existence doesn't mean I'm a snake-handlin', strychnine-drankin' Christian. Talk about arrogant.

Forget for a minute about your mental images of pearly gates, flowing white robes, Noah's Ark, and a bunch of old Jews writing a book. Now: tell me how a mix of chemicals and lightning or heat morphed into something that lives, breathes, requires food, metabolizes and reproduces. Lemme know.

[OhU1]

Besides, most (all?) Christians I know realize the "days" in Genesis weren't actually 24-hour periods.

How about you? Let's hear your case for how or why life originated. Not molecules, not amino acids, just living things. Why and/or how did they come to be.

And why do modern Christians recognize the Earth was not made in 6 days, that stars existed before the sun, that the sun existed before plant life on Earth, that the Earth is not flat and is not the center of the universe and does not circulate the sun? Because of science. Over time when the science can no longer be denied or suppressed the theology is adjusted to match the science.

Abiogenesis is in the hypothesis stage. Look up abiogenesis if you are really interested in the current state of research and hypotheses that biochemists are working on. Asking a layman is kind of pointless.

Even if the honest answer to a question is "we don't know" - that does not lend any weight to a supernatural explanation. The supernatural claim still must be justified with some kind of evidence to be accepted on a rational basis. Doing otherwise is to be making an argument from ignorance (“We don't know A, therefore B”). I've heard statements such as "come on, life cannot come from non-life" which is another objection to the hypotheses of abiogenesis - this is an argument from personal incredulity and is another logical fallacy but does not get us anywhere.

Let's say science discovers the mechanism for abiogenesis in the next 5 years, would that destroy your faith? If your god is the so called "god of the gaps" I suppose it would. A very large number of Christians fully accept evolution and big bang cosmology and I suspect would not be shaken by any scientific discovery about the natural world. I would add that there are a number of respected scientists (such as evolution expert Ken Miller) who see no conflict between science and natural explanations for life and their Christian faith. LeMay (spelling?) was a catholic priest and I believe was the primary theoretical physicist behind the Big Bang theory.

Edit: P.Q. much of this is not directed to you but is intended as general discussion on the topic.

[GKeeper316]

See I don't disagree that life evolved from simple organisms. Just because I give weight to the idea that something intelligent had a hand in our existence doesn't mean I'm a snake-handlin', strychnine-drankin' Christian. Talk about arrogant.

Forget for a minute about your mental images of pearly gates, flowing white robes, Noah's Ark, and a bunch of old Jews writing a book. Now: tell me how a mix of chemicals and lightning or heat morphed into something that lives, breathes, requires food, metabolizes and reproduces. Lemme know.

just because science has yet to duplicate the event, doesn't discount that the event happened. if you want a play by play of how it happened, you'll be waiting a very long time... much like the bible, there wasn't anyone around documenting events as they occurred.

the fact that we are here is proof enough that it happened. you want a cause. science can't give you one. science can give you logical starting point and a lot of data to support it's hypotheses, but without firsthand observation, falls short of proof.

except that science tries. believers don't even make an attempt. "god did it" is good enough for them, which makes them ignorant and naive.

[OutlandTrophy]

just because science has yet to duplicate the event, doesn't discount that the event happened. if you want a play by play of how it happened, you'll be waiting a very long time... much like the bible, there wasn't anyone around documenting events as they occurred.

the fact that we are here is proof enough that it happened. you want a cause. science can't give you one. science can give you logical starting point and a lot of data to support it's hypotheses, but without firsthand observation, falls short of proof.

except that science tries. believers don't even make an attempt. "god did it" is good enough for them, which makes them ignorant and naive.

God loves you. He loves all of us, even Johnny Mack and Mack Brown.

I have placed my faith in God. You seem to have placed your faith in "Anything but God."

I'm not going to call you names like you have done to me and other Christians but your position seems to be just like the one you claim the followers of are "ignorant and naive".

God bless you and yours.

[GKeeper316]

God loves you. He loves all of us, even Johnny Mack and Mack Brown.

I have placed my faith in God. You seem to have placed your faith in "Anything but God."

I'm not going to call you names like you have done to me and other Christians but your position seems to be just like the one you claim the followers of are "ignorant and naive".

God bless you and yours.

ya god loves everyone... look at job. i mean all god did was destroy everything the man held dear just to prove a point to lucifer. god loves everyone so much he destroyed 2 cities full of people that didn't behave exactly as he commanded. where was god's gift of free will then? god gives us free wil to decide for ourselves how we want to live and then punishes us for using it in a way he displeases.

i could accept your opinion of me being ignorant and naive, except that i have spent a whole lot of time studying religion and faith. more than most people that attend seminary in fact.

[OutlandTrophy]

I think you missed the point on Job and Soddom and Gmorah.

Which is surprising because you have told us that you are smarter than 97% of the population and you have studied religion and faith more than most people that attend seminary in fact.

[yermom]

my favorite part of Job is his kids.

kids are just possessions. if they die, you can just have more.

Lot's wife was killed for turning around to look at a couple of cities worth of sinners.

God's apparently kind of a dick.

[OutlandTrophy]

God's apparently kind of a dick.

so you believe in God, that He exists?

[GKeeper316]

God's apparently kind of a dick.

i been sayin it for years... if god's real, he's an *******.

[yermom]

Got any theories or ideas how life randomly came to be? Any wild guesses?

I'm not trying to be a smart aleck - I had the same thoughts as you, but when you let yourself really explore this subject - including what defines 'life' - Seriously, life randomly manifested itself? Think about it. Molecules which living things are made of, sure. But life?? Come on.

all science can do is look at evidence. if things can't be explained yet, they look for more evidence.

deciding that it looks too hard and that some all-powerful being did it doesn't really fit that model.

the original article just says that it looks like the right dice were available from space to roll the hard 6 or whatever on earth.

[StoopTroup]

When we finally find out the Milky Way is a type of Preparation H in another World and that Plants like Earth are merely moisture Droplets to keep hemoriodial tissues from drying out...the shot will hit the fan

[GKeeper316]

I think you missed the point on Job and Soddom and Gmorah.

Which is surprising because you have told us that you are smarter than 97% of the population and you have studied religion and faith more than most people that attend seminary in fact.

no, i got the point... god said to the people of soddam and gammorah, do what i say or i'll reign firey destruction down upon you.

and job... ya i get it. despite all the bull**** god did to the man he never lost his faith in the lord. but does that make all the **** he went through less miserable? no, it doesn't.

god's a dick.

[Chuck Bao]

I think you missed the point on Job and Soddom and Gmorah.

Which is surprising because you have told us that you are smarter than 97% of the population and you have studied religion and faith more than most people that attend seminary in fact.

Heh! Well, it would help your argument if you would at least spelled the two cities correctly - Sodom and Gomorrah. There were some really, really bad people at that time, as there are today. And, I take the Bible's account here. That has nothing to do with gay folks today.

I am least impressed with the God-annointed King David who was a power hungry, ruthless murderer and adulterous SOB. He would wipe out every city and kingdom, killing every man, woman and child therein, that stood in his way of more power. If he lived in modern times, the US military would already have several Tomahawk missiles aimed at his ***.

Does anyone wonder why the Middle East is in such a mess? The "Star of David" is not really the image of God's will on Earth that I would choose to project. No wonder for the advent of the Muslims and their incredible chip on their shoulder.

We are never, ever going to solve that problem and I often wonder why we even try and eventually waste the lives of some of our really handsome young men and women. God bless our troops!

Our seminaries teach religion. It IS religion, after all is said and done. One of my favorite cousins graduated from the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth before taking up a life long commitment to be a missionary overseas. I imagine that he did take up classes in Greek and ancient Hebrew. He is an exceptionally brilliant man, far, far smarter than I am. If anyone can figure this **** out, he could.

I still think that preachers, graduating from those seminaries, are a lot like politicians today, they need to just accentuate the positives.

[OutlandTrophy]

and I was afraid that nobody would understand which two cities I was talking about because of the gross misspellings.

I'm very glad that you were smart enough to decipher which two cities I was talking about.

We got lucky on that one...

[Chuck Bao]

When we finally find out the Milky Way is a type of Preparation H in another World and that Plants like Earth are merely moisture Droplets to keep hemoriodial tissues from drying out...the shot will hit the fan

Dude, seriously?

I do know that you are joking, but what...?

I do look up at the Milkyway at night and wonder about our place in the cosmos, just like our ancestors did many thousands of years ago.

I think you just put your finger on my G-spot and I think I lost my religion right there.

We are just now discovering that many of out ancestors were smarter than we thought. We are discovering that the ancient legends date back far, far further than we previously thought. The ancient legends are in fact describing what our ancestors were seeing in the night skies several thousand years back.

Do you think that God revealed himself to our ancestors way, way back then? Or was he just biding his time and then pick his "Chosen People" in a small and rather insignificant bunch of wandering sheep herders which eventually became a rather small and insignificant kingdom?

As others have said previously: "IT COULD HAPPEN" in the billions and billions of possibilities.

I am not discounting anything.

[saucysoonergal]

I was watching a show about Sodom and Gomorrah the other day and the smart people said their greatest sin was not welcoming strangers, not the sexual stuff. That was considered a big no no at the time, but you know city dwellers.

[GKeeper316]

Dude, seriously?

I do know that you are joking, but what...?

I do look up at the Milkyway at night and wonder about our place in the cosmos, just like our ancestors did many thousands of years ago.

I think you just put your finger on my G-spot and I think I lost my religion right there.

We are just now discovering that many of out ancestors were smarter than we thought. We are discovering that the ancient legends date back far, far further than we previously thought. The ancient legends are in fact describing what our ancestors were seeing in the night skies several thousand years back.

Do you think that God revealed himself to our ancestors way, way back then? Or was he just biding his time and then pick his "Chosen People" in a small and rather insignificant bunch of wandering sheep herders which eventually became a rather small and insignificant kingdom?

As others have said previously: "IT COULD HAPPEN" in the billions and billions of possibilities.

I am not discounting anything.

and lets not forget the great purging of all knowledge not directly related to god, and more specifically, god in the way they (the roman catholic church) wanted him portrayed...

so much of what the ancients knew is now lost for all time because of man's zealotry.

[Chuck Bao]

and I was afraid that nobody would understand which two cities I was talking about because of the gross misspellings.

I'm very glad that you were smart enough to decipher which two cities I was talking about.

We got lucky on that one...

Yeah we, in fact, did. I am kinda surprised that you didn't use the other correct spelling Saddumite. But whatev.

Did you not also mention seminary and biblical study in the same post?

Well hell, let's just destroy whatever credibility is left.

[jkjsooner]

Wow, so elements in our bodies also exist in space?

You seem to confuse elements with complex molecules or at least do not have an appreciation for the difference between the two.

[Partial Qualifier]

You seem to confuse elements with complex molecules or at least do not have an appreciation for the difference between the two.

You seem to be missing the point entirely. :D

[OhU1]

I was watching a show about Sodom and Gomorrah the other day and the smart people said their greatest sin was not welcoming strangers, not the sexual stuff. That was considered a big no no at the time, but you know city dwellers.

I like the part of the bible story where Lot, "a righteous man of God", offers up his virgin daughters to the crowd to be raped instead of the angels God had sent.

The sequel is pretty messed up too. Lot is now single because his wife is a big salt lick right, well his virgin daughters feel bad for ole dad and decide to get him drunk and have sex with him. Remember, Lot was one of the righteous ones! :P

[Chuck Bao]

I was watching a show about Sodom and Gomorrah the other day and the smart people said their greatest sin was not welcoming strangers, not the sexual stuff. That was considered a big no no at the time, but you know city dwellers.

That was really the message I got too. And, it would fit into Jesus's message In Matthew 10:14 (And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town.)

But please don't let that get into the way of a good queer bashing and "God is gonna smite them" story.

[NormanPride]

Queers throw the best bashes. My friend's "Homeschool Hootenany" was awesome.

And now I feel bad for using the word "queer"...

[Jacie]

The posts that make me laugh the loudest are the ones that basically say anything science has no answer for, such as exactly how life began on Earth, then the only logical answer is God, a real leap of faith and ridiculous in that it assumes the role of science without any of that pesky evidence required to back it up . . .

[GKeeper316]

I like the part of the bible story where Lot, "a righteous man of God", offers up his virgin daughters to the crowd to be raped instead of the angels God had sent.

The sequel is pretty messed up too. Lot is now single because his wife is a big salt lick right, well his virgin daughters feel bad for ole dad and decide to get him drunk and have sex with him. Remember, Lot was one of the righteous ones! :P

and when you're done having sex with them, you can sell em into slavery!

win/win i say.

[yankee]

To me, it takes more faith to ACTUALLY believe an asteroid containing microscopic bacteria is the basis of all the trillions (more?) incredibly, wondrously, complex things on this planet. The grass, bumblebees, a human brain, an oak tree. God bless you if you can really believe that, my hat is off to you.

[OhU1]

To me, it takes more faith to ACTUALLY believe an asteroid containing microscopic bacteria is the basis of all the trillions (more?) incredibly, wondrously, complex things on this planet. The grass, bumblebees, a human brain, an oak tree. God bless you if you can really believe that, my hat is off to you.

Science isn't about "belief" and "faith". It's about the evidence and interpreting what that evidence may mean or explain. Also science does not always provide intuitive and easy to understand answers. But to each his own.

[MR2-Sooner86]

You're not making much sense here. You pigeonholed the big majority of those who believe in a creator as underinformed Christians -- and not very effectively, I might add.

Translation: I have nothing to counter that so I'm just going to laugh, pretending I know what I'm talking about, when I really don't.

In case you didn't get it I'll explain it nice and slowly.

We have proof of evolution, we closely know the age of the Earth, we closely know the size of the universe, we've discovered planets like Earth that can support life, and many other things. Now, to say, "this can't be by chance, there had to be a creator who started it" is an argument for Deism.

The Christian religion is a Theistic religion as it involves a god that "takes part" in the universe and people's lives.

So how can you take part in a Theistic religion when you're making arguments for Deism?


Besides, most (all?) Christians I know realize the "days" in Genesis weren't actually 24-hour periods.

So the Bible isn't to be taken literal but the stories are just symbolism?

Jesus then wasn't divine or might not have been real but a representation?

So is the entire Bible symbolic representations or do Christians get to cherry pick which parts are and aren't?


How about you? Let's hear your case for how or why life originated. Not molecules, not amino acids, just living things. Why and/or how did they come to be.

See the Miller–Urey experiment.

[Partial Qualifier]

Translation: I have nothing to counter that so I'm just going to laugh, pretending I know what I'm talking about, when I really don't.

In case you didn't get it I'll explain it nice and slowly.

We have proof of evolution, we closely know the age of the Earth, we closely know the size of the universe, we've discovered planets like Earth that can support life, and many other things. Now, to say, "this can't be by chance, there had to be a creator who started it" is an argument for Deism.

The Christian religion is a Theistic religion as it involves a god that "takes part" in the universe and people's lives.

So how can you take part in a Theistic religion when you're making arguments for Deism?



So the Bible isn't to be taken literal but the stories are just symbolism?

Jesus then wasn't divine or might not have been real but a representation?

So is the entire Bible symbolic representations or do Christians get to cherry pick which parts are and aren't?



See the Miller–Urey experiment.

you missed the 3 or 4 times I indicated I'm not arguing for a Christianity-centric viewpoint. I don't have anything against Christianity in theory, but I'm not coming from that point of view. I don't know how I could've made that any clearer.

The guys who created amino acids with soup & lightning at the U. of Chicago, right? the Miller–Urey experiment is like explaining how a internal combustion engine works by describing how tire makers cook rubber. I said "Let's hear your case for how or why life originated. Not molecules, not amino acids, just living things. Why and/or how did they come to be."

[MR2-Sooner86]

you missed the 3 or 4 times I indicated I'm not arguing for a Christianity-centric viewpoint. I don't have anything against Christianity in theory, but I'm not coming from that point of view. I don't know how I could've made that any clearer.

Alright, take out Christianity and insert any other organized religion. Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Animism, Sikhism, Spiritism, Rastafarism, you get the point. I can switch out most religions as they're mostly Theistic in origin.


The guys who created amino acids with soup & lightning at the U. of Chicago, right? the Miller–Urey experiment is like explaining how a internal combustion engine works by describing how tire makers cook rubber. I said "Let's hear your case for how or why life originated. Not molecules, not amino acids, just living things. Why and/or how did they come to be."

You're asking me to describe the internal combustion engine but not to tell you about compression ratios, firing orders, timing, OHC vs OHV, and all the other things that go together to make it possible.

We know the building blocks and how they can react. In the four billion years of Earth's history, several million years being used to create the first life is really a drop in the bucket. In fact in the Miller-Urey experiment the number of amino acids has gone up when they last checked the test tubes a few years ago. The main ingredient we're missing is time.

I mean how can a single cell turn into a person? We know how that happens. It just took longer billions of years ago the first go around. A human being didn't just pop up out of some ooze and here we are. It took a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long time for us to get where we are today.

Honestly though, we really don't know the exact process. Now of course you'll be like "Ah-ha! Got ya! That just goes to show it had to be a higher power to get it started!" Not really, there are many things we didn't know not too long ago that now we don't even second guess. Darwin's Theory of Evolution is one of them. Galileo was considered a loon but he was right. Some people would think we'd never map human DNA but we did. We'll unlock the secret soon.

I mean, it took until 1992 for the Pope to admit the Earth revolved around the sun so I'm not holding my breath to convince anybody.

[soonerhubs]

The word proof can hardly be used to describe any life origin or evolutionary theory (or any theory for that matter). There are far too many possible and plausible alternative hypotheses that need to be ruled out before such terms can be applied. I would suggest evidence supporting.

[87sooner]

You're not making much sense here. You pigeonholed the big majority of those who believe in a creator as underinformed Christians -- and not very effectively, I might add.

Besides, most (all?) Christians I know realize the "days" in Genesis weren't actually 24-hour periods.

How about you? Let's hear your case for how or why life originated. Not molecules, not amino acids, just living things. Why and/or how did they come to be.

do you think God couldn't create the heavens and the earth and all living creatures in six 24 hour periods?

when the bible says God created Adam...do you think it means He initiated a big bang billions of years ago and over time....chemicals turned into life and grew into creatures and evolved into man who then developed intelligence over millions of years?
do you not think God could not create an adult man with intelligence whenever He chooses?

don't let the atheists dumb down your God...

that said....there's no point in getting caught in this quagmire..
the scientists can't disprove God no matter how hard they try...

[87sooner]

It's funny how this debate shifts from one to the other. They're arguing on this thread for Deism, however the Christian Bible and religion is based on Theism.

It's impossible to determine whether everything is by chance or something higher in science we don't know about or if something all powerful started it all. We can't answer that.

What we do know is that it didn't take 6,000 years, two white people in the Middle East to start us all off, a big boat carrying all the animals, and it was all recorded in a book that ignores logic.

So even if you can show that the odds are in your favor for Deism, you shot your own foot because you're admitting evolution, a 5 billion year old earth, a round earth, gravity, and everything that really doesn't help Christianity's Theistic case.

it may "ignore HUMAN logic"....
but it doesn't ignore the power of God...

[stoopified]

God created the heaven and the earth .All this so-called science of creation is complete horsemanure.

[87sooner]

The posts that make me laugh the loudest are the ones that basically say anything science has no answer for, such as exactly how life began on Earth, then the only logical answer is God, a real leap of faith and ridiculous in that it assumes the role of science without any of that pesky evidence required to back it up . . .

you know which posts make me laugh the loudest?
the ones who think they are so highly intelligent....that if THEY can't figure out God....they are certain there can't BE a god....

second place are the ones who point to tragedies and say "if there is a god...he's ___________"

[OutlandTrophy]

I do not believe that Adam & Eve were aliens.

Do athiests believe that Adam & Eve existed?

[Partial Qualifier]

See, you guys are dodging & talking around the issue because I'm not asking for proof or even evidence, just ideas. Postulate. And I'm not attacking you or your stance on this, I just want you to think it through.

Considering even the simplest prokaryote from the ground up, I can conceive (just like you) how it's enzymes and proteins and acids could form randomly by chance. We know how amino acids can form. And I suppose - given vast amounts of time - those different pieces of a simple bacteria could come together somehow, inside of a selectively permeable membrane or protein shell (wow). I get that it could happen.

Then I look at a ribosome or other organelle. Or it's DNA. Or even just the cytoplasm. The complexity of life in the simplest organism is just wacky.

Environmental issues - we know bacteria can live in very unhospitable places. Let's assume bacteria originated on another planet billions of years ago. Did it get here on a comet by pure chance? I guess that's feasible.

Again, I can see how the pieces of a simple organism could form, but kicking those pieces into a living breathing thing had to require some magic. This is the point where I began to think maybe there is a design behind this.

We are here due to either:

1) a 1-in-a-google-googles chance

2) "life" is built into the universe, it can (relatively) quickly morph into wildly complex forms, and it "just happens" in the right conditions

3) something intelligent helped us along

I think 3 is more plausible than 1. Number 2 is a lose-lose because if scientists can someday show evidence of spontaneous life -- creationism proponents will just point to God and say "See? It's part of his design of the universe". And they'd probably be right.

[Jacie]

you know which posts make me laugh the loudest?
the ones who think they are so highly intelligent....that if THEY can't figure out God....they are certain there can't BE a god....

Never said, claimed nor implied any of the things you attribute to my post (and by extension . . . to me).

Maybe I am not so smart.

Maybe there is (or isn't) a god, goddess, gods or God.

But people who assume because one thing is not known then therefore, the thing they scream about by logic must be the answer is just plain ridiculous.

Now if they would step back and say, "I believe . . ." then their statement is a matter of faith and a personal decision.

But to argue faith over science on the basis that because science has not found an answer to a particular question (yet) is (said it once, say it again) plain ridiculous.

[Theskipster]

I was watching a show about Sodom and Gomorrah the other day and the smart people said their greatest sin was not welcoming strangers, not the sexual stuff. That was considered a big no no at the time, but you know city dwellers.

Thank you for saying that. There are too many people who fill their heart with hate (in a religion of love) using those parts of the Bible that they don't understand.

Now, I want to ask all Christians: You believe the Bible is going to tell you about god. Yet what is the actual Bible was chosen by people who believed that we should torture and kill non-christians. Or it is even OK to torture people who may believe that the Earth orbits the sun. And these same people also believe that homosexually raping children is not wrong. Why do you believe these people have it all figured out and you should totally live your life by what these people say?

[picasso]

Thank you for saying that. There are too many people who fill their heart with hate (in a religion of love) using those parts of the Bible that they don't understand.

Now, I want to ask all Christians: You believe the Bible is going to tell you about god. Yet what is the actual Bible was chosen by people who believed that we should torture and kill non-christians. Or it is even OK to torture people who may believe that the Earth orbits the sun. And these same people also believe that homosexually raping children is not wrong. Why do you believe these people have it all figured out and you should totally live your life by what these people say?

What? That was some serious gibberish.

Some of you guys are really naive about the bible but who gives a flip really? Go on living your life and let them crazy Christians live theirs.

And before you start talking about Christians forcing their morality on you then you better stop forcing your version onto others your own damn self. Awight den.

[Theskipster]

What? That was some serious gibberish.


Gibberish? Name one thing in my post that isn't true.

[achiro]

Gibberish? Name one thing in my post that isn't true.

The entire "what if" section was what he's talking about. "What if" :rolleyes:

[Chuck Bao]

I get it.

The ner'do'wells, the God-forsaken atheists, the intellectual liberal so-called elite and the queers pick on the Christians all the time and we need to stop it. No, they're not judging us at all. Just maybe, maybe if the federal or state governments paid for some conversion therapy, we could begin to think straight.

[soonerhubs]

I get it.

The ner'do'wells, the God-forsaken atheists, the intellectual liberal so-called elite and the queers pick on the Christians all the time and we need to stop it. No, they're not judging us at all. Just maybe, maybe if the federal or state governments paid for some conversion therapy, we could begin to think straight.

You're not someone who is also supporting that bat****-crazy quasi historian that just won an Iowa state fair popularity contest this weekend... Right? ;)

[Chuck Bao]

You're not someone who is also supporting that bat****-crazy quasi historian that just won an Iowa state fair popularity contest this weekend... Right? ;)

Well, I don't know yet. Do ya think it is the most pressing issue on our nation right now? ;)