Somalia ravaged by famine...again

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

250 kids are dying every day right now...Al-Shabaab militia group has blocked much aid and vaccinations to their central territory in the ex-state. CNN is reporting that Al-Shabaab has mostly withdrawn from Mogadishu after all local support dried up...guess that happens when you issue an edict banning aid groups :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14394659




It declared a famine in two large southern regions of the war-torn country in July.

"Famine is expected to spread across all regions of the south in the coming four to six weeks," said the UN Food Security and Nutrition Analysis Unit.

More than 11 million people have been affected by the worst drought in 60 years in the Horn of Africa.

The UN's Food Security and Nutrition Analysis Unit (FSNAU) said that famine was "likely to persist until at least December 2011".

Evidence from malnutrition and mortality rates shows that famine thresholds have been surpassed in two rural districts of the Middle Shabelle region - Balcad and Cadale - as well as the parts in and around the capital, Mogadishu, where there are camps for displaced people.

These three areas join the Bakool and the Lower Shabelle region, where famine was declared on 20 July 2011.

"A humanitarian emergency persists across all other regions of southern Somalia, and tens of thousands of excess deaths have already occurred," the UN unit said in a joint statement with the US-based Famine Early Warning Systems Network (Fewsnet).

On Thursday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton called on the militants to let the aid through.

"Al-Shabab are preventing assistance to the most vulnerable populations in Somalia," she said.

"I call on al-Shabab to allow assistance to be delivered in an absolutely unfettered way throughout the area... so that as many lives as possible can be saved."

Some 3.2 million people in Somalia are in need of immediate life-saving assistance - almost half the population, the UN says.

According to the FSNAU and Fewsnet, the situation has been compounded by the rise in prices of food staples in Somalia - they have more than doubled since 2010, and in some areas have tripled.

"Across all livelihoods, poor households (30% of the population) are unable to meet basic food needs and have almost no ability to cope with these food deficits," their statement said.

It is the first time in 19 years that the country - which has been without a central government since 1991 - has experienced famine.

[Blue]

Too bad there is no oil there. We could've launched a "humanitarian" mission.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Too bad there is no oil there. We could've launched a "humanitarian" mission.I'm sure they could use some good old fashioned democracy though!

[SicEmBaylor]

Too bad there is no oil there. We could've launched a "humanitarian" mission.

Yep.

And there are people in this country who really truly believe in spreading Democracy to **** holes like this. I've said it before, but some people are totally unsuited for self-rule. Somalia is a great example.

I feel bad for the children starving because the adults in that country have barely evolved from caveman thinking. Nothing is going to change in that country until the people demand it.

Does Somalia even have an official government yet? For several years that country didn't technically have a government...just a bunch of tribes duking it out with each other.

Anyone who suggests the United States get involved in a cluster**** like Somalia needs to be put into an asylum.

[Fish&Game]

I've heard of that place...

[diverdog]

Yep.

And there are people in this country who really truly believe in spreading Democracy to **** holes like this. I've said it before, but some people are totally unsuited for self-rule. Somalia is a great example.

I feel bad for the children starving because the adults in that country have barely evolved from caveman thinking. Nothing is going to change in that country until the people demand it.

Does Somalia even have an official government yet? For several years that country didn't technically have a government...just a bunch of tribes duking it out with each other.

Anyone who suggests the United States get involved in a cluster**** like Somalia needs to be put into an asylum.

America will not give them much aid. We have three wars and economic issues. Someone else will need too take over. On top of that Blackhawk down is firmly planted in everyones mind.

[KantoSooner]

I'm sure they could use some good old fashioned democracy though!

Would that it were that easy. Democracy does not work with people who are illiterate and unacquainted with the rudiments of societal process. The Somali's live in a prehistoric mire where all aspects of life are dominated by traditional Patriarchs and a version of Islam that is closer to black magic and animism than any ivory minaret scholasticism.

Frankly, they are separated from animals only by the technicalities of DNA and an ability to speak.

Forming of them a peaceful, democratic polis would be the work of a century or more. And would require the vision and aboslute dictatorial power of an Ataturk.

They are doomed and the world needs to spend time on people who have a fighting chance.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Too bad there is no oil there. We could've launched a "humanitarian" mission.

How soon we forget.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c60bf53ef0120a5bbe210970b-500wi

[NormanPride]

This is why I say we forget about everyone who doesn't want to play nice. And if people come looking for trouble we level their entire civilization. Other than that, let them wallow in their squalor all they want.

[StoopTroup]

Another good article video

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157231

[StoopTroup]

How soon we forget.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c60bf53ef0120a5bbe210970b-500wi

Yep. Blackhawk Down popped right into my mind as well as all these pirate deals we have gotten involved in.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Would that it were that easy. Democracy does not work with people who are illiterate and unacquainted with the rudiments of societal process. The Somali's live in a prehistoric mire where all aspects of life are dominated by traditional Patriarchs and a version of Islam that is closer to black magic and animism than any ivory minaret scholasticism.

Frankly, they are separated from animals only by the technicalities of DNA and an ability to speak.

Forming of them a peaceful, democratic polis would be the work of a century or more. And would require the vision and aboslute dictatorial power of an Ataturk.

They are doomed and the world needs to spend time on people who have a fighting chance.
While you're correct about what is required for democracy to function, you're incorrect in assuming that it cannot function in Somalia. The "country" has been completely decimated by 20 years of civil war between groups who should never have been united under one country by the British and Italians.

In northern Somalia there is a completely unrecognized but de-facto independent state, Somaliland, which held elections in 2010 that BBC said "elections considered largely free and fair by international observers." Thats quite a step in progress from their independence in 1991 (not a century like you claim), unfortunately Somaliland will continue to struggle as no international recognition will mean its pretty much impossible to for Somaliland to seriously develop.


This is why I say we forget about everyone who doesn't want to play nice. And if people come looking for trouble we level their entire civilization. Other than that, let them wallow in their squalor all they want.
You can't be ****ing serious

[NormanPride]

While you're correct about what is required for democracy to function, you're incorrect in assuming that it cannot function in Somalia. The "country" has been completely decimated by 20 years of civil war between groups who should never have been united under one country by the British and Italians.

In northern Somalia there is a completely unrecognized but de-facto independent state, Somaliland, which held elections in 2010 that BBC said "elections considered largely free and fair by international observers." Thats quite a step in progress from their independence in 1991 (not a century like you claim), unfortunately Somaliland will continue to struggle as no international recognition will mean its pretty much impossible to for Somaliland to seriously develop.


You can't be ****ing serious
No, I know it's not a feasible foreign policy, but I'm sick of a few countries ****ing it up for everyone. There's a point where the world is better off without said country.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

No, I know it's not a feasible foreign policy, but I'm sick of a few countries ****ing it up for everyone. There's a point where the world is better off without said country.
The good ole USA ****s it up for a lot of people to. Would the world be better off without us?

[KantoSooner]

Somaliland has a completely different history from Southern Somalia. The North was largely a trading area with 1500 years of ties to Yemen, Oman, Egypt and the Emirates. The South has pretty much forever been a **** hole, subsisting on hard scrabble farming and fishing.
It's part of the wadged together nature of the 'country' that you refer to above.

[NormanPride]

The good ole USA ****s it up for a lot of people to. Would the world be better off without us?
Not if we kept to ourselves and only played with the nice countries like I said in my original post.

[KantoSooner]

The good ole USA ****s it up for a lot of people to. Would the world be better off without us?

At the risk of speaking for NP, I don't think he's talking about eliminating Somalia, but, rather, letting them do the job themselves. So, a non-interventionist policy; which I think you'd support.

A logical exception could be drawn for piracy; in which case carpet bombing with a view towards extermination of the local population could be easily justified. And executed.

[NormanPride]

^^ Yes. Not isolationist in total, but do with the ****ed up countries like we do with Cuba. They do not exist in our eyes.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

At the risk of speaking for NP, I don't think he's talking about eliminating Somalia, but, rather, letting them do the job themselves. So, a non-interventionist policy; which I think you'd support.

A logical exception could be drawn for piracy; in which case carpet bombing with a view towards extermination of the local population could be easily justified. And executed.
"And if people come looking for trouble we level their entire civilization." is by no means non interventionist. There's also quite a difference in military non-intervention and sending aid. Albeit we ****ed that up pretty well once in Somalia, so I admit it may not be time to try it again. However we could easily send huge amounts of aid to the 400,000 refugees camped out in Kenya, 800 tons of food is a good start.

Logical to level an entire local population due to the actions of a few? Uh-huh

[KantoSooner]

Hold on their boah!

I dated a Cubana once, many years ago. There's at least a solid 40% of their population who exist most vibrantly.

[NormanPride]

Hold on their boah!

I dated a Cubana once, many years ago. There's at least a solid 40% of their population who exist most vibrantly.
Hey, never said they can't immigrate. :D

But only the hot chicks.

[KantoSooner]

"And if people come looking for trouble we level their entire civilization." is by no means non interventionist. There's also quite a difference in military non-intervention and sending aid. Albeit we ****ed that up pretty well once in Somalia, so I admit it may not be time to try it again. However we could easily send huge amounts of aid to the 400,000 refugees camped out in Kenya, 800 tons of food is a good start.

Logical to level an entire local population due to the actions of a few? Uh-huh

Aid in kind shipments tend to be good for a matter of weeks only. After that, they distort local economies and retard development.

Your 800 tons works out to about 4 lbs per person. Even at subsistence level, that's not going to hold things very long. Stage 2 is what?

And, yes, ultimately, I'm good with emptying the swamp. Ask yourself, whenever dealing with *******s, 'What Would Genghiz Do?' When he ran Asia, an unarmed man could walk from the Med to Beijing without being molested. And the folks there are most assurredly *******s.

[sappstuf]

Hey, never said they can't immigrate. :D

But only the hot chicks.

I bet even Okie54 could support that immigration policy!

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Aid in kind shipments tend to be good for a matter of weeks only. After that, they distort local economies and retard development.

Your 800 tons works out to about 4 lbs per person. Even at subsistence level, that's not going to hold things very long. Stage 2 is what?

And, yes, ultimately, I'm good with emptying the swamp. Ask yourself, whenever dealing with *******s, 'What Would Genghiz Do?' When he ran Asia, an unarmed man could walk from the Med to Beijing without being molested. And the folks there are most assurredly *******s.
They also keep people alive, which is slightly more important than immediate growth and development.

Stage 2 is to continue food shipments for weeks. This isn't something that has a politcal/military or economic fix, rain levels are 30% of what they usually are in an already parched area. We can give aid or we can stand by and watch 10,000 people die every day because "well they're backwards anyway".

Yeah, and Mussolini made the trains run on time right?

[StoopTroup]

WWGD?

What Would Genghiz Do?

[KantoSooner]

My option would have been to finance local/regional acquisition of food aid - which means money...rather than subsidizing ADM and Cargill by buying up their 'surplus' and then undercutting African grain markets. There's a reason that continent has no organized agriculture and part of that reason is an inability to compete with 'aid' grain being dumped either free or at artificially low prices.

So, no, you don't get the easy points on this score.

Our previoius efforts in staving off starvation in the horn of Africa and in the Sahel in general have been at best something of a wash. And have encouraged the people to stay on land that is, by your own reckoning, marginal.

Change has to come to that area and will not come through the agency of either the warlords or the NGO's. To the extent that we continue to 'try harder' in the same old way(s), we merely support repetition of the same old results.

An enlightened dictator (rare, I know), may well prove to be the best solution. It is a certainly that we have no positive role to play there and should restrict ourselves to actions aimed at keeping the area's proclivity to produce terrorists in check.

[unbiasedtruth]

^^ Yes. Not isolationist in total, but do with the ****ed up countries like we do with Cuba. They do not exist in our eyes.

you ever been to cuba? if you havent I wouldn't say its messed up. what's messed up is our stupid *** leaders that try to keep Americans from travelling there or American companies doing buisness in Cuba for tha past 50 years or so.

It just a big pain in my *** to have to travel to the Canada, Jamacia, Caymans or Mexico just to be able to travel to Cuba and scuba dive... now thats what is &*^$#( up.....

and have Cuban officials stamp a piece of paper rather than my passport as they know all the crap I will receive from our gov't because I travelled there. "land of the free", ya right....

[NormanPride]

Note to self: alert FBI of suspicious individual...

[KantoSooner]

Oh, if you travel outside the US, you're definitely suspicious. And if you live there! Oh my. I had the Customs Service (low IQ day release from asylum unit) pull the lining out of my suitcase once. When I protested, I was told, 'That's the risk you take in travelling overseas.' (the guy was about 210 lbs, 5'5" with eyes set too close together and half his lunch on his tie. At the same time I was treated like a VIP most other countries.
Our border policies need work.

[NormanPride]

Nobody wants to bomb those other places, I'm sure.

[Chuck Bao]

Yep.

And there are people in this country who really truly believe in spreading Democracy to **** holes like this. I've said it before, but some people are totally unsuited for self-rule. Somalia is a great example.

I feel bad for the children starving because the adults in that country have barely evolved from caveman thinking. Nothing is going to change in that country until the people demand it.

Does Somalia even have an official government yet? For several years that country didn't technically have a government...just a bunch of tribes duking it out with each other.

Anyone who suggests the United States get involved in a cluster**** like Somalia needs to be put into an asylum.

Okay, I agree that we shouldn't get involved unless of the developed world also gets involved. And, the rest of the world should be ashamed if it doesn't.

But, I don't agree with your bigoted views. One of my best friends at Baylor was a Somali, the son of a diplomat to the US, and an extremely bright man. I didn't keep contact with Figre and I regret that. My study group was a Muslim from Somalia, a Jew from New York, a Jain from Bombay and a Buddhist from Bangkok. I was the lone Southern Baptist in the group. They were all very smart and made better grades than I did. Besides that, my family adopted them and I took most of them home with me for the holidays. And, we consumed a lot of vegetarian pizza when we studied to keep it no pork, no beef, no meat rule.

[SicEmBaylor]

But, I don't agree with your bigoted views. One of my best friends at Baylor was a Somali, the son of a diplomat to the US, and an extremely bright man. I didn't keep contact with Figre and I regret that. My study group was a Muslim from Somalia, a Jew from New York, a Jain from Bombay and a Buddhist from Bangkok. I was the lone Southern Baptist in the group. They were all very smart and made better grades than I did. Besides that, my family adopted them and I took most of them home with me for the holidays. And, we consumed a lot of vegetarian pizza when we studied to keep it no pork, no beef, no meat rule.



I don't think you can make assumptions on that nation or society based on the few that you've come into contact with in the setting of higher-education. Clearly, they're a cut above the average Somali on the streets of Mogadishu if they managed to get to the United States and educate themselves in one of our universities. I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that they are the extreme exceptions to the rule.

Also, it has nothing to do with intelligence. It's more a social/cultural problem along with ignorance (note: ignorance is not the same as stupidity or a lack of intelligence).

[Chuck Bao]

I don't think you can make assumptions on that nation or society based on the few that you've come into contact with in the setting of higher-education. Clearly, they're a cut above the average Somali on the streets of Mogadishu if they managed to get to the United States and educate themselves in one of our universities. I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that they are the extreme exceptions to the rule.

Also, it has nothing to do with intelligence. It's more a social/cultural problem along with ignorance (note: ignorance is not the same as stupidity or a lack of intelligence).

Yeah but there are those rare exceptions and it is intelligence (maybe a slightly different definition of intelligence than you are used to).

One of the best English language writers that I have employed over the years was a guy from a very poor farming family in the Northeast. His only way of going to secondary school was to join the monkhood and go to monk high school. He wasn't taught English. He taught himself.

With him in mind, that is why I support the Red Shirts. That and the Yellow Shirts saying that the people from the Northeast are too poor and stupid to be ready for democracy.

I still rankle when I hear of New Yorkers or Californians looking down their nose at fly-over territory or Okies or Okie farmers, in particular. It makes me mad.

[KantoSooner]

Just asking, but how do you live with the fact that the Red Shirt votes are virtually 100% motivated by bribery?
I'll agree that the NE is pretty downtrodden, but the Shinawatra family could stand in for the Gambino's without needing much coaching.

[Chuck Bao]

Just asking, but how do you live with the fact that the Red Shirt votes are virtually 100% motivated by bribery?
I'll agree that the NE is pretty downtrodden, but the Shinawatra family could stand in for the Gambino's without needing much coaching.

NO IT IS NOT! You've lost touch with Thailand. Vote buying and the old patronage system with the village headmen delivering the votes used to determine election results in the Northeast. But, right now there are plenty of people really angry, even in Bangkok. How would you explain that 10 members of parliament were elected in Bangkok in July from the (pro-Red Shirt) Phuea Thai Party?

It was pretty obvious to everyone that former Prime Minister Abhibsit, as lily white as his reputation, led a puppet administration. That is far worse than corruption when the corrupt parties did not have to bear any responsibility for their actions. That is not only far worse, but far more dangerous. And, I can give a lot of examples, not least of which was totally unnecessary border battles with Cambodia.

[KantoSooner]

Chuck, quite clearly the Red Shirts were winning votes from all over - you've got Thaksin's sister as a PM now. That does not speak to whether they were paid for or not.
Further, the crappiness of the (now) former gov does not speak to Clan Shinawatra's purity of heart.
How shall we explain how a local police chief 'obtained' a national cell phone monopoly and 5 years later has a net worth of close to $10 bill? Much like our pal Bernie Madoff, it doesn't happen in the real world without corruption being involved.
I'm no friend of the former gov, but the Red Shirts are no better. Thailand's in for a long night.

[Chuck Bao]

Chuck, quite clearly the Red Shirts were winning votes from all over - you've got Thaksin's sister as a PM now. That does not speak to whether they were paid for or not.
Further, the crappiness of the (now) former gov does not speak to Clan Shinawatra's purity of heart.
How shall we explain how a local police chief 'obtained' a national cell phone monopoly and 5 years later has a net worth of close to $10 bill? Much like our pal Bernie Madoff, it doesn't happen in the real world without corruption being involved.
I'm no friend of the former gov, but the Red Shirts are no better. Thailand's in for a long night.

I am certainly no apologist for exiled former prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra. In fact, I wish he would just take his billions and go away for the sake of the country. His younger sister is not qualified to be prime minister and she will always be accused of being a proxy for her brother. But, she did earlier this week name a pretty decent independent economic ministers to her cabinet. The stock market should be quite pleased, as I wrote about it this morning. Even the Nation newspaper who hates Thaksin with a passion gave the cabinet the thumbs up.

Thaksin, as a businessman, was brilliant. He realized very early that cell phones would be a huge business and the set up was just perfect. At that time in the very early 90s, getting a land line required an average wait of 6 years. Or, you could bribe a Telephone Organization of Thailand (TOT) official $1,000 to get a land line installed. Handsets back then cost $1,000-2,000 apiece but usage rates were very low. Thaksin controlled the numbers connecting to his service and captured 80-90% of the profit margin on all handset sales. He then used this price gouging of early entrants to build a nationwide cellphone network. There is nothing illegal about what he did and he was very good for Thailand allowing cell phones to very quickly leapfrog over land line phone usage. He allowed handset prices to fall as the penetration rate and usage of the already established national network made economic sense, just as competition emerged.

I also think that Thaksin's government wasn't as corrupt as some people claim. Granted, his roving cabinet meetings throughout the country and filmed as reality TV was just a bit, okay a lot, egotistical of him. I mean it was sort of like the town hall type of dealio and the villagers who never had anybody important listen to them before found that they were important and appearing on TV and there were many, many out there watching that felt their voice was finally being heard too! Thaksin and his economic ministers would then decide to investigate the grievance or fix it on the spot. Hey, it was reality TV and government by reality TV. It was again brilliant PR in my opinion.

But, it did **** off the Bangkok elite and bureaucrats (including the military) who were accustomed to telling the rest of the country what to do. It was also ending the customary corruption and gravy train of the state enterprises and their labor unions, such as telephone (still seething over loss of income over the cell phone deal) and electricity. These are the biggest Yellow Shirt (status quo) supporters who think that Thailand needs to go back to a golden era 20 years ago when farmers were poor and stupid and didn't know any better and couldn't see it on TV or call anyone to tell them about it. This is the real reason for the coup.

You can't tell me that Thaksin was convicted in court. I know for a fact that every major company listed on the stock market hides certain amount of shares with friendly brokers overseas. I have also said that the justice system in Thailand is the most corrupt of all. It always has been. You can pay your way out of trouble and if you don't keep paying it will come back and bite you on the *** as Thaksin found out. I consider them elite bureaucrats and corruption piled on top of corruption. Lordy, knows I never, ever want to face a Thai judge. Yeah, now watch this post land me in jail. Please do not quote me.

[KantoSooner]

I wouldn't dream of it.

I just dislike Thaksin enough to hate to see him and his party listed as some sort of 'solution' to Thailand's ills. There really are some good politicians out there and I wish they'd get elected. The whole Red Shirt/Yellow Shirt thing, however, is a fight between filthy and filthier. It's a loser's game. And, unfortunately, the losers here are the Thai people.

p.s. I don't buy the rags-to-riches story of how Thaksin wrapped up the cellphone network, but we'll have that bicker another day.

[Chuck Bao]

Oh yeah, what is corruption compared to trying to start a war with Cambodia to drum up national price (yeah, pick on your little baby sister) or handing over all 3G phone service back to the very corrupt and bloated state enterprises and their unions? Don't get me wrong outgoing prime minister Abhisit should be considered one of the most qualified and respected prime ministers since Anand Panyarachun. I just think that he came by the position wrongly and never really was in control.

[Chuck Bao]

I wouldn't dream of it.

I just dislike Thaksin enough to hate to see him and his party listed as some sort of 'solution' to Thailand's ills. There really are some good politicians out there and I wish they'd get elected. The whole Red Shirt/Yellow Shirt thing, however, is a fight between filthy and filthier. It's a loser's game. And, unfortunately, the losers here are the Thai people.

p.s. I don't buy the rags-to-riches story of how Thaksin wrapped up the cellphone network, but we'll have that bicker another day.

You are terribly mistaken, Kanto, if you think anybody here sees the Red Shirts or Puea Thai party as a "solution". The Red Shirts/Yellow Shirts is a very big problem that will not go away and everyone realizes that. It has gone far beyond the Red States/Blue States divide in the US. Right now, thankfully, it seems that even ardent Yellow Shirts supporters, like 90% of my office colleagues, are willing to give democracy a chance and the will of the people decide. But hey, we are stockbrokers and will whore ourselves out to anything and everything that makes the economy go and we can make money. In other words, you shouldn't trust my opinion.

[NormanPride]

They all need to be eaten by kra-sue.

[47straight]

Indeed, it's not a lack of money or food to be sent to places suffering like Somalia. It's a lack of stability on the ground.