you know what's gonna be great?

[Position Limit]

once the dust settles from the fall out of S&P's salvos the sec will come out with a new round of unnecessary regulations futher damaging liquidity. with half of the regulations set up by big money centers. the best thing to happen would be a market down 50% in a very short period and many banks, prop desks, exchanges, hedge funds and regulators go away forever. clearing houses too. and dark pools. and flash trading. exchange server farms sold out to the highest bidders also. and every other C**KSU*KER that pays off the sec, sro's, and congress for real and theoretical edge.

[TUSooner]

once the dust settles from the fall out of S&P's salvos the sec will come out with a new round of unnecessary regulations futher damaging liquidity. with half of the regulations set up by big money centers. the best thing to happen would be a market down 50% in a very short period and many banks, prop desks, exchanges, hedge funds and regulators go away forever. clearing houses too. and dark pools. and flash trading. exchange server farms sold out to the highest bidders also. and every other C**KSU*KER that pays off the sec, sro's, and congress for real and theoretical edge.

I'm certainly not sophisticated enough to really understand that, or to support with economic nollege what I am about to say, but here's what I think anyway:
I perceive (in my naivety) that money has long ago escaped the control of real "capitalists" of the sort that used to use money to create tangible value (like products and services and therefore jobs). It is now in the hands of people who produce nothing but monetary illusions. You had to know that these financial thaumaturges had us by the genitalia when even the GOP favored bailing them out. These folks are essentially holding capital hostage, preventing it (a helluva lot of it?) from going toward employment and other useful but possibly risky ventures. No matter how "easy" money gets or how much the gubment tries to "stimulate" the economy, we have no hope of real recovery as long as these recalcitrant capital "hoarders" are in control. (And the tea bags absolutely provide no answers; they don't even know the questions.)

I would welcome someone explaining how grossly wrong I am. Otherwise, I going to belive that the best way to start solving the problem is to toss about 1000 investment bankers or fund managers out their high Manhattan windows.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Word.

Kill 'em all. Let God sort 'em out.

[cccasooner2]

....... (And the tea bags absolutely provide no answers; they don't even know the questions.) ........


:D

[pphilfran]

Banks shouldn't be investment firms...

Investment firms shouldn't be banks...

[Position Limit]

I'm certainly not sophisticated enough to really understand that, or to support with economic nollege what I am about to say, but here's what I think anyway:
I perceive (in my naivety) that money has long ago escaped the control of real "capitalists" of the sort that used to use money to create tangible value (like products and services and therefore jobs). It is now in the hands of people who produce nothing but monetary illusions. You had to know that these financial thaumaturges had us by the genitalia when even the GOP favored bailing them out. These folks are essentially holding capital hostage, preventing it (a helluva lot of it?) from going toward employment and other useful but possibly risky ventures. No matter how "easy" money gets or how much the gubment tries to "stimulate" the economy, we have no hope of real recovery as long as these recalcitrant capital "hoarders" are in control. (And the tea bags absolutely provide no answers; they don't even know the questions.)

I would welcome someone explaining how grossly wrong I am. Otherwise, I going to belive that the best way to start solving the problem is to toss about 1000 investment bankers or fund managers out their high Manhattan windows.

you may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but at least you're in it. i've said it so many times, we are a bubble nation. we cant employ or earn without them. and it start and ends with the fed. hell, banks dont even need our deposits anymore. one of the things the created this living hell of a marketplace was investment banks going public. they use to be partnerships with members money and little risk was taken. investment banking ruled the day. deals got done and underwriting was bread and butter. now the trading desk get to play with massvie pools of money and put everything in a black box. yeah....that's the ticket. it use to be companies ipo'd to rasie capital to service a market in high demand. now companies ipo to cash out certain individual off the back on unsuspecting public. look no futher than the internet bubble 13 years ago. and oh yeah, it's back. wall street loves to dig up old crap with nothing else is working. check out the chart on LNKD. how did that ipo work out? and several others. every stock, option, and commoditiy exchange is publicly traded. why? was it to raise capital to service a market? hellz no!!! it was to cash out seat holders. who were the large seat holder and players involved? take a guess....

[soonercruiser]

:(
It's gonna be messy....

[Position Limit]

anybody think helicopter ben is a little nervous ahead of tomorrows meeting?

[pphilfran]

anybody think helicopter ben is a little nervous ahead of tomorrows meeting?

Is he on the Hill?

They will grill his azz....

[Position Limit]

Is he on the Hill?

They will grill his azz....

i believe it's just FOMC meeting.

[pphilfran]

i believe it's just FOMC meeting.

That will be almost as good...

[KantoSooner]

I'm certainly not sophisticated enough to really understand that, or to support with economic nollege what I am about to say, but here's what I think anyway:
I perceive (in my naivety) that money has long ago escaped the control of real "capitalists" of the sort that used to use money to create tangible value (like products and services and therefore jobs). It is now in the hands of people who produce nothing but monetary illusions. You had to know that these financial thaumaturges had us by the genitalia when even the GOP favored bailing them out. These folks are essentially holding capital hostage, preventing it (a helluva lot of it?) from going toward employment and other useful but possibly risky ventures. No matter how "easy" money gets or how much the gubment tries to "stimulate" the economy, we have no hope of real recovery as long as these recalcitrant capital "hoarders" are in control. (And the tea bags absolutely provide no answers; they don't even know the questions.)

I would welcome someone explaining how grossly wrong I am. Otherwise, I going to belive that the best way to start solving the problem is to toss about 1000 investment bankers or fund managers out their high Manhattan windows.


I like your posts and don't want this to sound like an attack, but your argument, or part of it at any rate, is the old "Well, Capitalism might have worked once but things are different now, so we better throw that poor outmoded economic model out the window because it just doesn't work anymore' argument.
I don't think anything has fundamentally changed. All the hedge fund, flash trading etc bring very little new to the market. Where they 'fail' is, basically, in areas that we've already legislated, but failed to regulate. Things like outright fraud (sub-prime loan repackaging) and gross stupidity (investing in things like derivatives that you, Mr. Trader dude, had no idea what even were; and less about your own downside risk. Or things that defied common sense (See: Madoff, Bernie) You're going to beat the market, always, because your buddy is sooooooo much smarter than everybody else. Really? Really???) Prior to the events of the last few days, the market was within about 10% of it's high. Pretty much recovered. Business is relatively healthy.

What still hasn't been fixed is gross assininity in the markets. S&P downgrades US sovereign debt and the markets take a dump. Why? S&P is the same group of clowns who told us that Bear Stearns and Lehman Bro.s were fine, upstanding credit risks. S&P are the stupidist group of morons on the street....other than the people who trust their opinions on anything. Did any other credit rater follow their lead? No? Why not? And why are we not marching off like lemmings to follow Moody's, for instance. The reason the market took a dump is that there are no independent thinkers on the street anymore. Just shameless sheep. Don't sell your stock on this dump because it's not real. It's temporary and it's caused by moronia run amok.

All we need do is enforce the laws we already had/have on the books and be a bit less credulous as investors.

Capitalism is not broken, there is no reason to fix it. There is big reason to jail fraudsters and to let poor quality investors and managers be put to the sword.

TUSooner, I realize on reread that my use of 'you' and 'your' might be easily read as personal attacks. The words were not meant that way at all, rather, I intended them as rhetorical devices. Sorry for any offense caused.

[StoopTroup]

In the last 20 minutes of the day, some buying started cowing in so the dive really slowed. Probably a good sign.

[Position Limit]

In the last 20 minutes of the day, some buying started cowing in so the dive really slowed. Probably a good sign.

check again buddy. final flush at the end. finished on lows. yummy. i guess we get a QE3 announcment by ben tomorrow.

[StoopTroup]

check again buddy. final flush at the end. finished on lows. yummy. i guess we get a QE3 announcment by ben tomorrow.

Paint it as black as you want but some selling did take place and that means that there were some folks willing to risk that there will be a rebound day tomorrow.

[JohnnyMack]

It's good to see that partisan hackery hasn't gone anywhere.

[tommieharris91]

I'm certainly not sophisticated enough to really understand that, or to support with economic nollege what I am about to say, but here's what I think anyway:
I perceive (in my naivety) that money has long ago escaped the control of real "capitalists" of the sort that used to use money to create tangible value (like products and services and therefore jobs). It is now in the hands of people who produce nothing but monetary illusions. You had to know that these financial thaumaturges had us by the genitalia when even the GOP favored bailing them out. These folks are essentially holding capital hostage, preventing it (a helluva lot of it?) from going toward employment and other useful but possibly risky ventures. No matter how "easy" money gets or how much the gubment tries to "stimulate" the economy, we have no hope of real recovery as long as these recalcitrant capital "hoarders" are in control. (And the tea bags absolutely provide no answers; they don't even know the questions.)

I would welcome someone explaining how grossly wrong I am. Otherwise, I going to belive that the best way to start solving the problem is to toss about 1000 investment bankers or fund managers out their high Manhattan windows.

You understand the problem better than our elected officials do.

[StoopTroup]

I'd buy into Companies that deal in Internet Security right now.

[OklahomaTuba]

France now has a better credit score than America. And Mexico's unemployment is lower than ours.

Change is Awesome!!!!

[Chuck Bao]

Yeah, I have been saying the very same thing as Position Limit for a long time. Those Wall Street companies scare the hell out of me. They should have never been bailed out. They should never have been allowed to merge with commercial banks. I get the too big to fail deal, but only the bank should have been saved and the investment bank split apart and sold separately.

Hedge funds are the debil incarnate and need to be regulated. They have already shown what type of animal they are by their stripes of market manipulation that they wear on their sleeve as badge of honor.

[TUSooner]

I like your posts and don't want this to sound like an attack, but your argument, or part of it at any rate, is the old "Well, Capitalism might have worked once but things are different now, so we better throw that poor outmoded economic model out the window because it just doesn't work anymore' argument.
I don't think anything has fundamentally changed. All the hedge fund, flash trading etc bring very little new to the market. Where they 'fail' is, basically, in areas that we've already legislated, but failed to regulate. Things like outright fraud (sub-prime loan repackaging) and gross stupidity (investing in things like derivatives that you, Mr. Trader dude, had no idea what even were; and less about your own downside risk. Or things that defied common sense (See: Madoff, Bernie) You're going to beat the market, always, because your buddy is sooooooo much smarter than everybody else. Really? Really???) Prior to the events of the last few days, the market was within about 10% of it's high. Pretty much recovered. Business is relatively healthy.

What still hasn't been fixed is gross assininity in the markets. S&P downgrades US sovereign debt and the markets take a dump. Why? S&P is the same group of clowns who told us that Bear Stearns and Lehman Bro.s were fine, upstanding credit risks. S&P are the stupidist group of morons on the street....other than the people who trust their opinions on anything. Did any other credit rater follow their lead? No? Why not? And why are we not marching off like lemmings to follow Moody's, for instance. The reason the market took a dump is that there are no independent thinkers on the street anymore. Just shameless sheep. Don't sell your stock on this dump because it's not real. It's temporary and it's caused by moronia run amok.

All we need do is enforce the laws we already had/have on the books and be a bit less credulous as investors.

Capitalism is not broken, there is no reason to fix it. There is big reason to jail fraudsters and to let poor quality investors and managers be put to the sword.

TUSooner, I realize on reread that my use of 'you' and 'your' might be easily read as personal attacks. The words were not meant that way at all, rather, I intended them as rhetorical devices. Sorry for any offense caused.

Thank you. No offense taken; not at all. But I certainly never meant to imply that capitalism is outmoded, just that it is more-or-less being subjected, perverted, afflicted, shackled, or imprisoned by -- I adopt your excellent words -- "assininity" and "moronia."

[TUSooner]

France now has a better credit score than America. And Mexico's unemployment is lower than ours.

Change is Awesome!!!!

In an exceedingly complex economy, only a disingenuous boob could blame it on one person, even if that person is the POTUS. Clinton must have been your favorite Prez, huh?

At least it's refreshing to recall that there is, after all, someone around here who less thoughtful than I am.

[NormanPride]

Looks like Tuba is back in form after a good long rest from the boards. Sigh.

[OklahomaTuba]

In an exceedingly complex economy, only a disingenuous boob could blame it on one person, even if that person is the POTUS. Clinton must have been your favorite Prez, huh?

At least it's refreshing to recall that there is, after all, someone around here who less thoughtful than I am.Funny, I didn't recall blaming anyone, just pointing out a basic fact. France now has a better credit rating than the USA, and Mexico has a lower unemployment rate.

No blame, just facts.

You can assume your own conclusions as to how that happened. I suspect most people already have a good idea.

[JohnnyMack]

Funny, I didn't recall blaming anyone, just pointing out a basic fact. France now has a better credit rating than the USA, and Mexico has a lower unemployment rate.

No blame, just facts.

You can assume your own conclusions as to how that happened. I suspect most people already have a good idea.

You're still as unpatriotic as they come. Your joy comes at the expense of others, victory and defeat are all about how your side looks in comparison to the other guys. You don't want the US to succeed, you want Democrats to fail. That's so depressing. I was hoping you had left this place for good.

[KantoSooner]

Thank you. No offense taken; not at all. But I certainly never meant to imply that capitalism is outmoded, just that it is more-or-less being subjected, perverted, afflicted, shackled, or imprisoned by -- I adopt your excellent words -- "assininity" and "moronia."

One of the things I love most about our politico-economic system is that it takes greed, megalomania, hate and outright evil into account and deals with them. Collectivist systems do not, which ultimately leads them to being run by monsters.
Our economic system, however, requires risk, and 'creative destruction'. We all understand, deep down, that ever increasing returns are simply not possible. And yet, that is precisely what the 'business school' way of thought presupposes.....and rewards; until, of course, the business in question collapses.
In the last several years, however, mis-management and poor management have, far from being punished, been rewarded with large dollops of the public coin. Why didn't we let the bastards collapse? "Because they are the only ones who know how to run things". Really? THE 'THINGS' THEY RAN WERE BROKEN. WHY DO WE NEED KLUTZHAMMERS WHO BROKE THINGS TO STAY IN CHARGE?
Companies that fail MUST be allowed to die.
And failure has a remarkably educational effect on at least some of the people responsible. And, for many of the rest, at least they are away from the levers of power for a while.

[OklahomaTuba]

You don't want the US to succeed, you want Democrats to fail.Actually, I do want the US to succeed, which means the Democrats must fail.

The Donks have been uber-successful these last 2-3 years, with their super majorities, massive spending programs, etc, and just look at the results! DOWNGRADE!!

Democratic success = American Failure.

[Veritas]

...being subjected, perverted, afflicted, shackled, or imprisoned by...
That's just a normal day for Mack when he visits the Deanarosa.

[diverdog]

once the dust settles from the fall out of S&P's salvos the sec will come out with a new round of unnecessary regulations futher damaging liquidity. with half of the regulations set up by big money centers. the best thing to happen would be a market down 50% in a very short period and many banks, prop desks, exchanges, hedge funds and regulators go away forever. clearing houses too. and dark pools. and flash trading. exchange server farms sold out to the highest bidders also. and every other C**KSU*KER that pays off the sec, sro's, and congress for real and theoretical edge.

Why not reinstate Glass Steagall and tax individual trades? Also force firms to take possession of commodities.

[KantoSooner]

Maybe on trade taxation.

Taking possession? Why? What does it gain you? You destroy any real futures market and put it in the hands of the likes of ADM and Cargill. (And I'm not sure I trust them more than a gaggle of math wonks on the Connecticut shore.)

Or you could simply empower me to select, at my discretion, 150-200 investment bankers per year for summary execution. ABC could televise it like the Olympics. We'd make mad bank AND inject lots of productive fear into the 'masters of the universe'.

[JohnnyMack]

Or you could simply empower me to select, at my discretion, 150-200 investment bankers per year for summary execution. ABC could televise it like the Olympics. We'd make mad bank AND inject lots of productive fear into the 'masters of the universe'.

FTW!

[diverdog]

Maybe on trade taxation.

Taking possession? Why? What does it gain you? You destroy any real futures market and put it in the hands of the likes of ADM and Cargill. (And I'm not sure I trust them more than a gaggle of math wonks on the Connecticut shore.)

Or you could simply empower me to select, at my discretion, 150-200 investment bankers per year for summary execution. ABC could televise it like the Olympics. We'd make mad bank AND inject lots of productive fear into the 'masters of the universe'.

Kanto:

The problem is oil can be traded 100 times and no one owns the oil. That causes risky speculation and hurts our economy. Maybe there is a better way of solving this problem but we need to get where there is less trading of air and more trading of real stuff.

Agree with you on shooting investment bankers.

[StoopTroup]

You can assume your own conclusions as to how that happened. I suspect most people already have a good idea.

So far TUSooner's take is the best.