22 Navy SEALs killed in Afghanistan chopper crash

[A Sooner in Texas]

So heartbreaking...31 killed altogether. The SEALs came from the same unit that killed bin Laden but the military has confirmed that none killed today were on that mission.


Kabul, Afghanistan (CNN) -- The U.S. military was reeling Saturday after a helicopter went down in eastern Afghanistan, killing 31 Americans, including 22 Navy SEALs, a U.S. military official told CNN Saturday.
In the single deadliest incident since the start of the decade-long Afghan war, an Army Chinook carrying a team of U.S. special forces and U.S. and Afghan soldiers went down in Wardak province. Insurgents are believed to have shot down the helicopter, the military official said.
The majority of the Navy SEALs who died belonged to the same covert unit that conducted the raid that killed Osama bin Laden in May, though they were not the same men, the official said.
"It's a big loss" for the SEALs, one of the officials said. "The numbers are high."
Afghan President Hamid Karzai issued a statement saying as many as 31 U.S. special forces and seven Afghans were killed.
DEADLIEST DAYS IN AFGHANISTAN
Saturday's NATO crash is believed to have left more than two dozen U.S. troops dead, which would make it the war's worst single-day loss, according to a CNN count. Here are previous large-scale losses.

U.S.
April 6, 2005 -- 15 soldiers, 3 civilian contractors killed in crash of helicopter traveling in severe weather.
June 27, 2005 -- 8 soldiers, 8 sailors killed when MH-47 helicopter downed by rocket-propelled grenade.
May 6, 2006 -- 10 soldiers killed in helicopter crash.
Oct. 26, 2009 -- 3 DEA agents, 7 troops killed as they returned from raid.
BRITAIN
Sept. 2, 2006 -- 14 troops killed in NATO plane crash believed to be due to technical problem.
FRANCE
Aug. 18, 2008 -- 10 soldiers killed in insurgent attack on patrol.
SPAIN
Aug. 16, 2005 -- 17 troops die in helicopter crash. Accident most likely cause, but attack not ruled out.
Special forces have been conducting almost daily night-time raids against insurgent targets in rugged areas like Wardak.
The Chinook went down as an Afghan and coalition force operation targeted a bomb-making cell leader in Wardak, leading to the detention of numerous insurgents Friday, according to NATO's International Security Assistance Force. It is not clear if the helicopter incident and the raid were connected.
The Taliban claimed militants downed the helicopter with a rocket-propelled grenade. Mohammad Hazrat Janan, head of the provincial council, said Tangi village elders reported that insurgents shot at the craft when it was returning from an operation.
Officials are being especially tight-lipped because recovery operations at the site are still underway and body identifications and family notifications are just beginning, a U.S. military official said.
ISAF has not said how the incident occurred. ISAF spokesman Justin Brockhoff confirmed the crash and acknowledged the helicopter had been flying in an area where there was reported insurgent activity, but declined to offer additional details.
The U.S. Embassy in Kabul, which said the helicopter went down Friday evening, said ISAF "is still assessing the circumstances that resulted in these deaths."
Afghan Defense Ministry spokesman Zahir Azimi said it's too early to say if the Taliban caused the crash. He called for an investigation.
Karzai, President Barack Obama and others offered condolences.
Dozens killed in NATO chopper crash
RELATED TOPICS
Afghanistan
The Taliban
NATO
"Information is still coming in about this incident. I think it's important that we allow investigators to do their work before jumping to too many conclusions," said Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
"It's also important that we respect the process of notifying family members, no matter how long that takes. We ought to remember that the troops we lose in this war aren't just statistics or numbers on a wall. They were parents and siblings, and someone's child. We need to make sure we do all we can to comfort and support the families whose lives are now forever changed."
The CH-47 Chinook is the workhorse helicopter of the Army, used for decades to haul large numbers of troops and quantities of equipment.
The military is looking into whether the helicopter was vulnerable to being shot down.
Depending on the configuration, the tandem-rotor Chinook can carry 33 to 55 troops, plus two pilots on the flight deck, according to Jane's Defence Equipment and Technology. It is capable of speeds up to 159 mph. The front rotor turns counter-clockwise while the rear rotor turns clockwise.
The SEALs, described as the "best of the best," have been lauded for killing al Qaeda terror leader Osama bin Laden in May, one of the most celebrated military acts in recent history.
SEALs, short for Sea, Air and Land teams, originated in World War II when the United States realized that to invade Japan, it needed savvy, quick-thinking fighters who could perform reconnaissance at sea. They became known as highly trained jack-of-all-trade commandos.
The SEALs, and other special forces, are given dangerous missions and go after insurgents in remote areas. A huge amount of money, training and expertise is poured into their careers. Along with carrying out counter-terrorism assaults on the Afghan-Pakistani border, they conduct training and military missions around the world.
The U.S. deaths come just as NATO is drawing down and handing over security control to national forces. Ten thousand U.S. troops are scheduled to depart by year's end, with all U.S. military personnel out of Afghanistan by the end of 2014. However, no one is talking about withdrawing special forces and they are expected to stay on the job.
"We are determined to stay the course, especially in this crucial period when Afghan and international security forces are working closer than ever to make transition a success," NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said.
The Afghan street is buzzing with reflection about the significance of the incident.
"It shows that the Taliban are very strong and have not been defeated by the U.S.," said Kabul resident Saifurahman Ahmezai.
But others said the incident is not emblematic of a new-found insurgent strength.
"The Taliban are not that powerful," said Hezat, a police officer in Kabul who goes only by one name. "But if the international forces leave Afghanistan, the situation will get even worse."
Last month, a NATO helicopter was brought down by insurgent fire in the country's eastern province of Kunar. The Taliban also claimed responsibility for that attack, though no injuries were reported.
In a separate incident, a NATO service member died Saturday after an improvised explosive device detonated in southern Afghanistan.
Elsewhere Saturday, a joint Afghan and coalition force conducted raids in the eastern province of Nangarhar, killing "several insurgents," NATO reported.
The operation also targeted a "Taliban facilitator," who NATO said was responsible for supplying ammunition and bomb-making materials to the Taliban.
In July, a series of gun battles in Nangarhar between insurgents and NATO forces left at least 10 militants dead.
There are 150,000 ISAF forces in Afghanistan, including nearly 100,000 from the United States -- the largest NATO presence in the region since the U.S.-led war began in 2001.

[olevetonahill]

Get our troops out of that **** hole, Or Change the ROE to allow em to blow the bastards to hell and gone no matter where they are hiding.

[MelloYello]

Get our troops out of that **** hole

This.

[FirstAndGoalOU]

Originally Posted by olevetonahill
Get our troops out of that **** hole
This.


And...WwlNPhn64TA

[AlboSooner]

this is a terrible terrible blow. sad news for all of us and the families of the fallen.
by far the biggest loss by the SEALs in the history of the force.

[StoopTroup]

I'd like to know where the insurgents got the weapon they used and exactly what it was before making a bunch of statements like leave. If that **** they used came from Pakistan and was some sort of payback...we are trying to win in Afghanastan without getting rid of the real Problem....the backstabbing POS that call themselves our Friend in Pakistan.

I just have a feeling they were involved in supplying those weapons and maybe even the intel about our troop movements.

Something continues to smell fishy to me.

[olevetonahill]

ST, what are we accomplishing there? What is our End goal?

[olevetonahill]

Oh and I said to change the ROE or GTFO. Kill those bastards wherever they are hiding.

[cccasooner2]

.....Something continues to smell fishy to me.


It would not surprise me if this was an internal tip during recess. I really trust our "leaders".

[StoopTroup]

It would not surprise me if this was an internal tip during recess. I really trust our "leaders".

I don't think our own did this but the possibility that these fire fights springing up now have some RPGs set up to flank any forces sent in to support, maybe some other missionary units from outside Afghanastan are now in there to assist the Taliban with some sort of payback.

Sounds like our Military is doing a full scale investigation. I'll bet they figure out what happened. Whether we ever really know what happened, that remains to be seen.

I damn sure don't like hearing that the Taliban got the drop on our guys especially a Special Forces Unit that is linked to the Bin Laden Raid.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/08/06/afghanistan.nato.helicopter.crash/

[SicEmBaylor]

Tragic. God bless their families.

There was no reason for them to still be there and no reason for them to have died.

[SicEmBaylor]

ST, what are we accomplishing there? What is our End goal?

I'd like to know this as well. Al-Queada has been effectively wiped out in Afghanistan. The Taliban are a shell of what they were. Who we're fighting over there are a mixture of insurgent forces from all around the middle east.

There's nothing there to "rebuild." We have no reason for being there whatsoever. The people we're fighting are only able to "hit us" because we give them an opportunity to. Take the troops out of Afghanistan and you eliminate the problem.

[StoopTroup]

I don't know and I dare say probably nobody on this board knows either but we damn sure had a better reason to be there than we ever did Iraq.

When we went in there the amount of Genocide that was taking place by the Taliban was as bad as what we saw in Bosnia. Given that Bin Laden decided to place it's headquarters in Afghanistan as well as hideout there and eventually in Pakistan, I see plenty of reasons why we went to Afghanastan. If Saddam was supporting Bin Laden / Al Queda then I understand why we went after him but I'm not sure why we stayed there unless we were afraid Iran would take advantage of the instability of Iraq after we rounded up a 52 card Deck of Who's Who in Iraq.

Still yet it took over 10 years to finally get the Bastard that started 9-11-2001.

Now that it took us so damn long in Iraq and Afghanistan I can see why it's taking so long to leave as once you get involved, it's difficult to just pack up and leave. Especially if an insurgent rogue force is going to be fed weapons as we try and wind down our operations there. There is no way we are going to leave there like the Russians did. If the Afghans don't take control of the situation there like Iraq kind of has done. Then it's going to turn ugly as we leave.

I have a feeling there are a bunch of folks ready to start a War over that POS place the minute it looks like we are leaving. I do understand that it's reasonable to think "**** that place" but if we just end up involved later instead of make sure things don't escalate as we leave, I just think we could be making an emotional decision instead of a good decision. I have no trust in our Leadership in America right now given the events of this Debt Ceiling Debacle but I do believe our Military Leadership is making good decisions in the face of a very difficult situation. There was bound to be fall out for icing Bin Laden.

I do think we did things backwards in the last 10 years. I always thought we should have pulled out of Iraq and finished looking for Bin Laden but for some reason a "War on World Terror" was our new agenda. Because of that, I think we are now seeing how difficult it is to just leave like you have stated we should.

At the end of the Day...I do wish we weren't there but unfortunately...we are. I don't want to leave because we have a large Body Count of our Troops piling up. I want to leave because we put a serious hurt on anyone that thinks they can take Bin Ladens Ideals to the next level and use Afghanistan as a Terror Base to spread that idiot's hatred all over the World.

We have enough problems with the other Muslim Nations and if we can't get rid of the Taliban...we will never get rid of our problem. It will come back I'm afraid. Hell maybe it's going to anyway.

It's just a thought. I don't know enough to even think I have the real answers.

[OhU1]

I respect the hell out of the SEALS. This is terrible news.

[StoopTroup]

I respect the hell out of the SEALS. This is terrible news.

Yep.

[Sooner_Tuf]

Prayers and smoke :(

[XFollower]

Two words... Greasy spot. We better make one soon.

[cccasooner2]

.......When we went in there the amount of Genocide that was taking place by the Taliban was as bad as what we saw in Bosnia. .....

Whatever the reason we're in Afg. better be something other than Genocide. What is the selective human rights crap about? Genocide has been happening all over the world for 1000's of years, yet we only get involved on motives far removed from human rights. Human rights come up only as an excuse to bolster/divert from our real intent. We violate human rights every day at home, but hopefully do not perform genocide.

[soonercruiser]

I'd like to know where the insurgents got the weapon they used and exactly what it was before making a bunch of statements like leave. If that **** they used came from Pakistan and was some sort of payback...we are trying to win in Afghanastan without getting rid of the real Problem....the backstabbing POS that call themselves our Friend in Pakistan.

I just have a feeling they were involved in supplying those weapons and maybe even the intel about our troop movements.

Something continues to smell fishy to me.

Stoop,
Reports so far seem to indicate that it was only a lucky RPG.
There is already some criticism of using the bigger, slower chopper.
But, apparent the heavier lift power is required in the wind swept canyons where they were.

RIP

[Fish&Game]

Stoop,
Reports so far seem to indicate that it was only a lucky RPG.
There is already some criticism of using the bigger, slower chopper.
But, apparent the heavier lift power is required in the wind swept canyons where they were.

RIPI could agree with this....even ahkmed gets a lucky shot off every now and then.....Unfortunately for the good guys, the price was high. I was thinkin' that was a crazy number of SOC guys on one bird.....but I am sure there were other teams involved in whatever operation it was that they were conducting.

RIP Brothers...

[diverdog]

Stoop,
Reports so far seem to indicate that it was only a lucky RPG.
There is already some criticism of using the bigger, slower chopper.
But, apparent the heavier lift power is required in the wind swept canyons where they were.

RIP

The Chinooks are the only birds we have that can get in the high mountains . I pray Iran is not arming them with shoulder fired sams.

[Peach Fuzz]

So realistically, what is enough motivation for us to bomb huge sections of land? IMO a stronger message might work every now and then. I realize there would be so much flaming going on if it were to happen, but is it possible we get enough motivation for something like that?

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

So realistically, what is enough motivation for us to bomb huge sections of land? IMO a stronger message might work every now and then. I realize there would be so much flaming going on if it were to happen, but is it possible we get enough motivation for something like that?
http://www.picshag.com/pics/102009/if-you-dont-come-to-democracy.jpg


Realistically we might kill a few hundred civilians, maybe twenty or thirty Al-Qaeda. Then fifty little Achmeds whose fathers were killed by the evil US bombing raid are pushed towards joining the Mujahideen. Lose-lose

[diverdog]

http://www.picshag.com/pics/102009/if-you-dont-come-to-democracy.jpg


Realistically we might kill a few hundred civilians, maybe twenty or thirty Al-Qaeda. Then fifty little Achmeds whose fathers were killed by the evil US bombing raid are pushed towards joining the Mujahideen. Lose-lose

Rummy and Bush really f-ed up this war. We had a good thing going until they decided to let the Afghans and regular Army take over. Our CIA and Special Forces beat the chit out of the Taliban with less than 400 in country. They should have let them finish the job.

[Sooner_Tuf]

Rummy and Bush really f-ed up this war. We had a good thing going until they decided to let the Afghans and regular Army take over. Our CIA and Special Forces beat the chit out of the Taliban with less than 400 in country. They should have let them finish the job.

Do you believe this? Really?

[SicEmBaylor]

Do you believe this? Really?

What part of that isn't true?
He's spot on.

The actual job of eliminating those who perpetuated the worst terrorist attack in our nation's history were having the **** beat out of them worse than if Baylor played the Patriots.

What f'd everything up was the nation-building.

[diverdog]

Do you believe this? Really?

Absolutely. Go out and do some reading. Try this one:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51vXLJ-DkDL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_AA278_PIkin4,BottomRight,-47,22_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

And this:

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I have others if you would like. All good reads.

[StoopTroup]

Stoop,
Reports so far seem to indicate that it was only a lucky RPG.
There is already some criticism of using the bigger, slower chopper.
But, apparent the heavier lift power is required in the wind swept canyons where they were.

RIP

The speed of the Chinook is 159mph but I don't know if that is loaded. You make a good point about the terrain too as flying one of those loaded with troops through the Mountains there is probably pretty terrifying. I had the vision of some Taliban A-hole kind of hanging out waiting for our boys to call in for back up and hit the Choppers with some RPGs.

Did they intend to kill everyone or get them to call in for back up?

I wondered how the surrounding intel was before we flew all those guys in there. I mean...that area, is it new to us? Did they set a trap?

I have no idea.

I just thought it weird to suddenly make a call to leave Afghanistan because we lost some Troops. My first reaction is that it's payback time.

I don't know. It's not because I support Obama or anything like that....it's because I haven't heard much from Soldiers who are serving there saying we should get the hell out of there. I understand the American People wanting to leave but it's the Men and Women who are there sacrificing that I listen too and I just haven't heard much about ending the war there. I hear them hoping we continue to support them.

The otherside of it all is this...

I know a good number of our Troops will be no longer needed and will return Home to find Work. From what I can tell...they are going to find it difficult to find Work. Sure being at Home is better than risking your life daily in a Country that is around 115 degrees everyday but knowing that there are still a ****load of scumbags that will only enjoy their freedom once we are gone and then organize to again attack us at Home....I like the idea of continuing to **** them up.

[diverdog]

The speed if the Chinook is 159mph but I don't know if that is loaded. You make a good point about the terrain too as flying one of those loaded with troops through the Mountains there is probably pretty terrifying. I had the vision of some Taliban A-hole kind of hanging out waiting for our boys to call in for back up and hit the Choppers with some RPGs.

Did they intend to kill everyone or get them to call in for back up?

I wondered how the surrounding intel was before we flew all those guys in there. I mean...that area, is it new to us? Did they set a trap?

I have no idea.

I just thought it weird to suddenly make a call to leave Afghanistan because we lost some Troops. My first reaction is that it's payback time.

I don't know. It's not because I support Obama or anything like that....it's because I haven't heard much from Soldiers who are serving there saying we should get the hell out of there. I understand the American People wanting to leave but it's the Men and Women who are there sacrificing that I listen too and I just haven't heard much about ending the war there. I hear them hoping we continue to support them.

The otherwise of it all is this...

I know a good number of our Troops will be no longer needed and will return Home to find Work. From what I can tell...they are going to find it difficult to find Work. Sure being at Home is better than risking your life daily in a Country that is around 115 degrees everyday but knowing that there are still a ****load of scumbags that will only enjoy their freedom once we are gone and then organize to again attack us at Home....I like the idea of continuing to **** them up.

The times I flew in Chinooks they made pretty good speed. We were really equipment heavy...setting up forward airfields. Damn things looked like a POS on the inside. I must have put in two gallons of hydraulic fluid while were flying.

[SicEmBaylor]

The times I flew in Chinooks they made pretty good speed. We were really equipment heavy...setting up forward airfields. Damn things looked like a POS on the inside. I must have put in two gallons of hydraulic fluid while were flying.

I remember watching a 60 minutes piece a looooooooong time ago on the Marine Corps' purchase and acquisition of the Chinook. The piece made them sound so mechanically unreliable that you took your life in your hands every time you boarded one.

Are they really that bad?

[StoopTroup]

I remember watching a 60 minutes piece a looooooooong time ago on the Marine Corps' purchase and acquisition of the Chinook. The piece made them sound so mechanically unreliable that you took your life in your hands every time you boarded one.

Are they really that bad?

They have a lot of flight time and have done jobs that other platforms can't do but like all Helicopters they are dangerous. I'd be more comfortable in a Chinook than an Osprey although they seem to have worked out the early problems the Osprey had they still give me the creeps after seeing all those fail videos. Also I have no idea if an Osprey could have been used in the fight our lost Soldiers were sent to defend.

God Bless them all, may they rest in peace and may the Families not be ruined from the loss of their loved ones. Awful awful that we lost so many highly trained highly dedicated Seals. I hope their loss inspires others to train to take their place and honor the fearless selfless heroes that we have lost.

A dark moment that I hope we avenge and turn into a positive for everyone that has suffered from senseless acts of terror.

[SicEmBaylor]

They have a lot of flight time and have done jobs that other platforms can't do but like all Helicopters they are dangerous. I'd be more comfortable in a Chinook than an Osprey although they seem to have worked out the early problems the Osprey had they still give me the creeps after seeing all those fail videos. Also I have no idea if an Osprey could have been used in the fight our lost Soldiers were sent to defend.

God Bless them all, may they rest in peace and may the Families not be ruined from the loss of their loved ones. Awful awful that we lost so many highly trained highly dedicated Seals. I hope their loss inspires others to train to take their place and honor the fearless selfless heroes that we have lost.

A dark moment that I hope we avenge and turn into a positive for everyone that has suffered from senseless acts of terror.

Actually, my bad, I was thinking an Osprey not a Chinook. The 60 minutes piece was basically a hit job on the Osprey's acquisition because of its mechanical problems.

[diverdog]

They have a lot of flight time and have done jobs that other platforms can't do but like all Helicopters they are dangerous. I'd be more comfortable in a Chinook than an Osprey although they seem to have worked out the early problems the Osprey had they still give me the creeps after seeing all those fail videos. Also I have no idea if an Osprey could have been used in the fight our lost Soldiers were sent to defend.

God Bless them all, may they rest in peace and may the Families not be ruined from the loss of their loved ones. Awful awful that we lost so many highly trained highly dedicated Seals. I hope their loss inspires others to train to take their place and honor the fearless selfless heroes that we have lost.

A dark moment that I hope we avenge and turn into a positive for everyone that has suffered from senseless acts of terror.

One of my best friends was a head engineer on the Osprey at the Philly Boeing plant and he was scared to death of it. The military/congress put pressure on the Boeing to bring out the Osprey before it was ready. My friend got on it to go to a political dog and pony show for some pro defense congressman and they ended up crashing in to the Potomac and killing everyone aboard. Still bothers me to this day. The 20th anniversary of the crash is next July.


July 1992
On 20 July 1992, a leaking gearbox led to a fire in the right nacelle, causing the aircraft to drop into the Potomac River in front of an audience of Congresspersons and other government officials at Quantico, killing all seven crewmen and grounding the aircraft for 11 months.[1]

[Veritas]

Just found out a old friend from college was one of the casualties. ****.

[StoopTroup]

Whatever the reason we're in Afg. better be something other than Genocide. What is the selective human rights crap about? Genocide has been happening all over the world for 1000's of years, yet we only get involved on motives far removed from human rights. Human rights come up only as an excuse to bolster/divert from our real intent. We violate human rights every day at home, but hopefully do not perform genocide.

I think it's fair to say that the reason we were in Afghanistan 10 years ago was intelligence seemed to point to Tora Bora as the hiding place for OBL and the Al Queda Leadership. Had we killed him on that raid it's hard to say if we would have stayed another day or another Week. That being said, once we were there the genocide in even the Major Cities was uncovered and I believe shocked the World. It was then that attention to the Taliban grew and they became a target.

In other words not catching Bin Laden and his bunch led to a very long hunt and years of inserting troops into the area.

[StoopTroup]

Just found out a old friend from college was one of the casualties. ****.

Sorry to hear V.

May your friend RIP and may his Family be able to avoid negative thoughts and devasting anxiety because of his Death. May God Bless them in this time of great loss.

[StoopTroup]

One of my best friends was a head engineer on the Osprey at the Philly Boeing plant and he was scared to death of it. The military/congress put pressure on the Boeing to bring out the Osprey before it was ready. My friend got on it to go to a political dog and pony show for some pro defense congressman and they ended up crashing in to the Potomac and killing everyone aboard. Still bothers me to this day. The 20th anniversary of the crash is next July.

I remember it well. An awful time. It is amazing that the plane ever got manufactured and introduced into service. Sorry for your loss.

[Sooner_Tuf]

Absolutely. Go out and do some reading. Try this one:

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I have others if you would like. All good reads.

I see you really do believe that.

[Sooner in Tampa]

I'd like to know this as well. Al-Queada has been effectively wiped out in Afghanistan. The Taliban are a shell of what they were. Who we're fighting over there are a mixture of insurgent forces from all around the middle east.

Really? Is that what you think?

Sorry bucky...you are DEAD wrong.

[diverdog]

Really? Is that what you think?

Sorry bucky...you are DEAD wrong.

Operationally AQ has been really hurt. All of their top leadership with the exception of Al Zawahari have been killed or captured. Our forces are only experiencing a few foreign fighters on the battlefield. What is going in Afghanistan is a civil/tribal war. The Taliban is fighting for an Islamic Republic and the rest are fighting for control of the drug trade.

I think our best option is to get out.

[diverdog]

I see you really do believe that.

What is your version of the war?

[Sooner in Tampa]

Operationally AQ has been really hurt. All of their top leadership with the exception of Al Zawahari have been killed or captured. Our forces are only experiencing a few foreign fighters on the battlefield. What is going in Afghanistan is a civil/tribal war. The Taliban is fighting for an Islamic Republic and the rest are fighting for control of the drug trade.

I think our best option is to get out.
There is a certain amount of truth to what you are saying...but there is also the fact that AQ is not the same AQ it was 3, 4, or 8 yrs ago...it is evolving and splintering.

I will leave it at that.

I sit on the fence on the "cut and run" mentality. If/when we leave...that ****hole will be a even bigger ****hole.

[pphilfran]

One of my best friends was a head engineer on the Osprey at the Philly Boeing plant and he was scared to death of it. The military/congress put pressure on the Boeing to bring out the Osprey before it was ready. My friend got on it to go to a political dog and pony show for some pro defense congressman and they ended up crashing in to the Potomac and killing everyone aboard. Still bothers me to this day. The 20th anniversary of the crash is next July.

When I was a kid I made an Osprey...

Cox .049 engine mounted on a solders tube frame...engine pivot controlled by servo and remote control...

Bench testing was superb...engine would pivot from vertical to horizontal...

Ready for test flight...

Gassed up...check...
Remotes work...check...
Contact!

Up that sumbitch went...straight the f up...spinning wildly and slinging pieces off...never found it...

We used to have Chinooks at Sill...as a kid I repelled out of one...

[olevetonahill]

There is a certain amount of truth to what you are saying...but there is also the fact that AQ is not the same AQ it was 3, 4, or 8 yrs ago...it is evolving and splintering.

I will leave it at that.

I sit on the fence on the "cut and run" mentality. If/when we leave...that ****hole will be a even bigger ****hole.

Bro, You KNOW I aint sayin Cut an Run.. Im simply saying Give Our troops a clearly defined Military objective, Get the ****ing politicians out of the way and Let them get the job done ,with out a **** load of restrictions.

Failing that. Bring em home ;)

[JohnnyMack]

I sit on the fence on the "cut and run" mentality. If/when we leave...that ****hole will be a even bigger ****hole.

Afghanistan can't be fixed. All the lives, time and money in the world can't fix that mess.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

There is a certain amount of truth to what you are saying...but there is also the fact that AQ is not the same AQ it was 3, 4, or 8 yrs ago...it is evolving and splintering.

I will leave it at that.

I sit on the fence on the "cut and run" mentality. If/when we leave...that ****hole will be a even bigger ****hole.
Al-Qaeda was operationally destroyed and splintered by 2002, we've granted them a new recruiting opportunity by overstaying our welcome and attempted to build a nation that cannot be built by its own, much less outsiders.

[Sooner in Tampa]

Al-Qaeda was operationally destroyed and splintered by 2002, we've granted them a new recruiting opportunity by overstaying our welcome and attempted to build a nation that cannot be built by its own, much less outsiders.
You really don't know of what you speak. Trust me.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

You really don't know of what you speak. Trust me.
I was under the impression Operation Anaconda smashed Al-Qaeda's ability to project any attacks beyond Afghanistan/Pakistan and forced them to withdraw into Pakistan to regroup. Enlighten me if I am so incorrect.

[Sooner_Tuf]

What is your version of the war?

Ha! I don't have a version. I think that is your problem always trying to put your spin on something. There is only one version - reality.

Bush was in a terrible position and I think he did pretty well under the circumstances. Maybe Obama can put in the diverdog hotline so you can get this all fixed up by Labor Day :rolleyes:

[C&CDean]

I was under the impression Operation Anaconda smashed Al-Qaeda's ability to project any attacks beyond Afghanistan/Pakistan and forced them to withdraw into Pakistan to regroup. Enlighten me if I am so incorrect.

So sorry I missed your ignorant *** when I was out there.

There's a lot of **** you're "under the impression" of. Reality ain't one of them. Go join, serve for 4 years, then comment. Otherwise, kindly STFU. Again.

[Wishboned]

We used to have Chinooks at Sill...as a kid I repelled out of one...

The majority of my jumps were out of the back of a ****hook...I mean Chinook.

I've never rappelled out of one, but I have fast roped out of one.

[C&CDean]

The majority of my jumps were out of the back of a ****hook...I mean Chinook.

I've never rappelled out of one, but I have fast roped out of one.

A Chinook jump was the best. Better than a Huey. Just walk off the back, count to 6-thousand (rather than 4) and it was good. I've tailgated C-130's and 141's, but a Chinook tailgate is by far the best.

[diverdog]

The majority of my jumps were out of the back of a ****hook...I mean Chinook.

I've never rappelled out of one, but I have fast roped out of one.

When you jump a Chinook are you jumping 500 ft AGL or higher? Is it an easier jump than say a C-130 or C-5 or C-141?

[diverdog]

A Chinook jump was the best. Better than a Huey. Just walk off the back, count to 6-thousand (rather than 4) and it was good. I've tailgated C-130's and 141's, but a Chinook tailgate is by far the best.

Dean:

When were you in? I we use to pick up the 82nd and 101st for airdrops all the time.

[C&CDean]

Dean:

When were you in? I we use to pick up the 82nd and 101st for airdrops all the time.

1974-1977. The only jump easier than a Chinook was a C-7A Caribou. It flew about the same speed, and you still tailgated. I also remember laying on top of a Gamma Goat waiting for a a Chinook to pick us up. Laying there, waiting to make the hook up, then jumping the **** off that thing was one of my most intense memories. If you didn't jump, you were airborne, without the parachute.

Good times.

[diverdog]

Ha! I don't have a version. I think that is your problem always trying to put your spin on something. There is only one version - reality.

Bush was in a terrible position and I think he did pretty well under the circumstances. Maybe Obama can put in the diverdog hotline so you can get this all fixed up by Labor Day :rolleyes:

Whatever. The simple factremains that several Delta and CIA guys point to Washington and the Pentagon as the reason things have not gone so well in Afghanistan and that OBL escaped in Tora Bora. I think Bush and Rummy believed at the time that Pakistan was our friend and that the Afghan Army would kill OBL. They were wrong.


Gary Berntsen, a decorated career CIA officer criticizes Donald Rumsfeld's Defense Department for not providing enough support to the CIA and the Pentagon's own Special Forces teams in the final hours of Tora Bora, says Berntsen's lawyer, Roy Krieger.


According to both Berntsen's account and the Senate Committee's report, "Bin Laden and bodyguards walked unmolested out of Tora Bora and disappeared into Pakistan's unregulated tribal area."[6] Berntsen insists this would have been stopped by a US military presence on the Afghan-Pak border, instead of a reliance on corrupt local warlords.

BTW he is a Republican.


A former Delta Force commander, using the pen name "Dalton Fury", who was present at Tora Bora has written that bin Laden escaped into Pakistan on or around December 16, 2001. Fury gives three reasons for why he believes bin Laden was able to escape: (1) the US mistakenly thought that Pakistan was effectively guarding the border area, (2) NATO allies refused to allow the use of air-dropped GATOR mines, which would have helped seal bin Laden and his forces inside the Tora Bora area, and (3) over-reliance on native Afghan military forces as the main force deployed against bin Laden and his fighters. Fury states that the Afghan forces would usually leave the battlefield in the evenings to break their Ramadan fasts, thereby allowing the al-Qaeda forces a chance to regroup, reposition, or escape.[6]
Fury, in an interview on 60 Minutes, stated that his Delta Force team and CIA Paramilitary Officers traveled to Tora Bora after the CIA pinpointed bin Laden's location in that area. Fury's team proposed an operation in which they would assault bin Laden's suspected position from the rear, over the 14,000 foot high mountain separating Tora Bora from Pakistan. But, Fury's proposal was denied by unidentified officials at higher headquarters for unknown reasons. Fury then proposed the dropping of GATOR mines in the passes leading away from Tora Bora, but this was also denied. Forced to approach the al-Qaeda forces from the front, at one point Fury reports that his team was within 2,000 meters of bin Laden's suspected position, but withdrew because of uncertainty over the number of al-Qaeda fighters guarding bin Laden and a lack of support from allied Afghan troops.[7]

[diverdog]

1974-1977. The only jump easier than a Chinook was a C-7A Caribou. It flew about the same speed, and you still tailgated. I also remember laying on top of a Gamma Goat waiting for a a Chinook to pick us up. Laying there, waiting to make the hook up, then jumping the **** off that thing was one of my most intense memories. If you didn't jump, you were airborne, without the parachute.

Good times.

You were in about 3 years before me.

My BIL was a 6 jump chump (his words) and became a helo pilot. He said they treated AF guys really harshly in jump school. I tried to go to jump school but they would not allow it in my career field. Instead we were given the basics at Fairchild and Homestead.

[JohnnyMack]

Whatever. The simple factremains that several Delta and CIA guys point to Washington and the Pentagon as the reason things have not gone so well in Afghanistan and that OBL escaped in Tora Bora. I think Bush and Rummy believed at the time that Pakistan was our friend and that the Afghan Army would kill OBL. They were wrong.





BTW he is a Republican.

God needs the devil and W needed Bin Laden.

[diverdog]

God needs the devil and W needed Bin Laden.

Honestly I wish Bush had gotten Bin Laden in Tora Bora.

Also I do applaud Bush for hiring Gates. He has been the best Sec Def in my lifetime. Closely followed by Brown.

[Wishboned]

When you jump a Chinook are you jumping 500 ft AGL or higher? Is it an easier jump than say a C-130 or C-5 or C-141?

The lowest I ever jumped from a Chinook was 1200 feet. The lowest I ever jumped was 800 feet.

And Dean is right. A Chinook is the best and easiest jump. No real backwash from the props. Just walk off the end and put your knees in the breeze.

[olevetonahill]

I just stepped off the side of the Huey :cool: Sometimes I got to sit and Hold the 60.

[diverdog]

The lowest I ever jumped from a Chinook was 1200 feet. The lowest I ever jumped was 800 feet.

And Dean is right. A Chinook is the best and easiest jump. No real backwash from the props. Just walk off the end and put your knees in the breeze.

Its been a while but I think the lowest drop we did (and it was at night) was 300 feet. I know when you get to 200 feet you can have a lot of canopy failures. Somewhere close to 25%. At 300 feet it is about 99.99% your chute will fully deploy. (I am talking about the T-10 chutes). They have gone to (I believe) a new chute called ROLAP Tactical Assault Personnel Parachute (TPP) which is suppose to be better for low level drops. Do you know anything about it. I have not been doing this for a while so I really do not remember much other than the goal was a reliable drop at 75 meters/250 feet AGL.

[diverdog]

I just stepped off the side of the Huey :cool: Sometimes I got to sit and Hold the 60.

Anyone trying to shoot back?

[Wishboned]

I just stepped off the side of the Huey :cool: Sometimes I got to sit and Hold the 60.

That's cause you're smarter than us fools who like to jump out of perfectly good aircraft.

:P

[Wishboned]

Its been a while but I think the lowest drop we did (and it was at night) was 300 feet. I know when you get to 200 feet you can have a lot of canopy failures. Somewhere close to 25%. At 300 feet it is about 99.99% your chute will fully deploy. (I am talking about the T-10 chutes). They have gone to (I believe) a new chute called ROLAP Tactical Assault Personnel Parachute (TPP) which is suppose to be better for low level drops. Do you know anything about it. I have not been doing this for a while so I really do not remember much other than the goal was a reliable drop at 75 meters/250 feet AGL.

I haven't read a lot about the new chute. A friend of mine sent me a link one day and I kind of glanced over it. From what I saw it looks like a good chute.

Sometimes I think a T-10 is only a step above tying all four corners of a blanket and using it to jump.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

So sorry I missed your ignorant *** when I was out there.

There's a lot of **** you're "under the impression" of. Reality ain't one of them. Go join, serve for 4 years, then comment. Otherwise, kindly STFU. Again.
Forgive my ignorance again, but now does being in the military in the 70s qualify you to be an all knowing source on a conflict 2001-present? Your reality is just as biased and ignorant as mine, obviously in different ways. Continue to be a condescending twat and I'll stay "ignorant" as you say, or you could actually say something productive. I don't know "your story", I'm sure its on the forum somewhere maybe you could link me to that. And I am planning on serving, remember? :)

[jk the sooner fan]

apparently - from an article i just read - the SEALS were outbound when they were shot down - they had finished their mission to subdue forces that had pinned down some Army Rangers

[StoopTroup]

Ha! I don't have a version. I think that is your problem always trying to put your spin on something. There is only one version - reality.

Bush was in a terrible position and I think he did pretty well under the circumstances.

I don't know that he did well.....lol

I like to look into a person's eyes to really tell if they believe the **** they are saying....

BTW is that a Muppet in the window over his right shoulder?

http://www.esoterically.net/weblog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/bush-mission-accomplished.jpg
http://blog.martinburch.com/Oscar.jpg

[Veritas]

Some of you disgust me a little bit, turning what should be a thread honoring the lives of these men that died protecting us into yet another political circle jerk. Pathetic.

[Fish&Game]

Some of you disgust me a little bit, turning what should be a thread honoring the lives of these men that died protecting us into yet another political circle jerk. Pathetic.
I agree..it is pathetic...


RIP American Warriors!

[StoopTroup]

I haven't seen much but disgusting threads on here for a long time.

The Austin Box Threads come to mind.

Here was a kid trying to continue to live his dreams, get an education and possibly even maybe do it for a living via the NFL and he died this Summer and some Sooners (?) had the balls to try and discredit and tarnish him post mortem and you are disgusted now?

It's been pathetic for a long time.

[diverdog]

apparently - from an article i just read - the SEALS were outbound when they were shot down - they had finished their mission to subdue forces that had pinned down some Army Rangers

One of the problems is that the mountains are so frickin high that they can actually be shooting down at you while you are airborne. Some of the guys who are Vietnam Vets can probably speak to this a little better than my knowledge but I think there is a critical transition time right after lift off that makes a helicopter a really juicy target.

I am still amazed that they have not done something to defeat RPG attacks against helicopters.

[Sooner in Tampa]

Forgive my ignorance again, but now does being in the military in the 70s qualify you to be an all knowing source on a conflict 2001-present? Your reality is just as biased and ignorant as mine, obviously in different ways. Continue to be a condescending twat and I'll stay "ignorant" as you say, or you could actually say something productive. I don't know "your story", I'm sure its on the forum somewhere maybe you could link me to that. And I am planning on serving, remember? :)

Son...the military life is the military life...for life. When...and IF you ever serve...you MIGHT get it.

Back to the original point...if you are stupid/ignorant/gullible enough to think that AQ was "crushed/defeated" in 2002 than I really don't have the time to show you the error of your ways. Suffice it to say...some of us work in the industry and we understand what is going on...it's not bragging/chest thumping it just it what it is.

God Bless those SEALS who gave the ultimate sacrifice. They are truly Heroes...one and all!!

[olevetonahill]

Anyone trying to shoot back?

1969 Take a guess:rolleyes:

[olevetonahill]

**** this **** and **** the idiots.:mad:

[olevetonahill]

WE Lost 31 Troops Yall kiss my ***. Mourn them .

[diverdog]

1969 Take a guess:rolleyes:

My dad and father in law were over there in 69.

[diverdog]

WE Lost 31 Troops Yall kiss my ***. Mourn them .

We have lost a lot of SEALs in these two conflicts. I bet their casualty rate is the highest % in the armed forces.

One of the SEALs dad was on the local Philly news show and he was devastated. He kept talking how his son loved all things Philly. Real tear jerker.

The bodies are coming to Dover AFB where I live. The community is already mobilizing. I helped a friend do BBQ at the new on base hotel where the families stay about a year ago. I can tell you Dover does it right. These men will be given the proper honors. My secretaries husband serves on the honor guard. Sharp, squared away kid.

[Veritas]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44052335#44052335

They mention my friend, John Brown.

FB group dedicated to him, if you're interested in reading:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/158697830870940/

[pphilfran]

I haven't read a lot about the new chute. A friend of mine sent me a link one day and I kind of glanced over it. From what I saw it looks like a good chute.

Sometimes I think a T-10 is only a step above tying all four corners of a blanket and using it to jump.

I think someone just died using one the other day...they have either stopped using them of making changes in the way they are packed...

yep...here it is...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43738840/ns/us_news-life/t/fort-bragg-death-leads-army-halt-use-new-parachutes

FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — The Army has halted the use of its new square parachutes because of problems found after a Fort Bragg soldier died during a training jump.

The Fayetteville Observer reported Wednesday that the T-11 parachutes initially were praised as safer. Tests had shown the new parachutes provide a slower, more stable descent than the traditional mushroom-shaped style.

Now Army investigators say Staff Sgt. Jamal Clay fell to his death last month because his T-11 parachute malfunctioned. Clay died during a training exercise at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. Clay reportedly jumped from a height of 800 feet.

An internal Army memo says investigators found "potential packing, inspection, quality control and functionality problems" with the T-11 parachute system.

According to the Fayetteville Observer, the investigation also revealed "tangled pack assist loops, improper corner arm folds, improperly stowed bridle, twists in the top of the canopy and failed pull tests of the reserve parachutes."

According to the memo, Secretary of the Army John McHugh ordered the suspension of the parachute's use until a safety investigation is completed.

The Fayetteville Observerreported that prior to Clay's death, the Army issued safety restrictions for the T-11 parachute due to lingering questions about wind drift.

The memo warns that jumps of 1,250 feet and higher carry the "realistic chance that several paratroopers will land off the drop zone or be dragged across the ground after landing."

The new parachutes, which are supposed to replace older models in about five years, are designed for the heavier load carried by the modern solider.

Clay is reportedlythe service's first fatality with the new parachute.

[Turd_Ferguson]

How could they have failed pull test of the reserve from a jump of 800 ft?

[Wishboned]

The memo warns that jumps of 1,250 feet and higher carry the "realistic chance that several paratroopers will land off the drop zone or be dragged across the ground after landing."


RIP paratrooper.


On one of my first jumps after jump school we launched out over the drop zone and we could see the trees swaying under the wind. Of course they had told us the usual lie in the plane, "Winds on the drop zone...3 knots." Ha!

Well I dropped my rucksack about 150 feet off the ground like I was supposed to. And it hit the ground and lodged in a hole. My equipment was tethered to me so basically it caused me to do a face first landing. And my kevlar helmet dug a nice little furrow for about 5 feet before I came to a stop.

Good times.

[StoopTroup]

Son...the military life is the military life...for life. When...and IF you ever serve...you MIGHT get it.

Back to the original point...if you are stupid/ignorant/gullible enough to think that AQ was "crushed/defeated" in 2002 than I really don't have the time to show you the error of your ways. Suffice it to say...some of us work in the industry and we understand what is going on...it's not bragging/chest thumping it just it what it is.

God Bless those SEALS who gave the ultimate sacrifice. They are truly Heroes...one and all!!

I know many of you and since 2000 I have noticed this even more...that there is this movement to create a disconnect like the 1960s when there was a ****load of Americans and College Students who "Don't get it" but I have to say that what I have really seen is that most of America since 9-11-2001 have done nothing but support our Troops and assist the families of the Fallen.

Although I understand that there are some folks that will never get it....it's always going to be that way as I'll never believe you'll ever see 100% of folks get it.

What concerns me is this "if you aren't Military you aren't ****" kind of attitude when our Country and it's masses have really tried to keep a 1960s type of Anti-War movement from occurring again.

I am worried that some attitudes do nothing positive and I am worried that should we ever need a Draft again that it will divide our Country even further. Bush had to bring the National Guard into Iraq instead of call for a Draft and I still think it was a mistake but doing so did help us avoid the Anti-Military sentiment we saw in the 1960s. However Contractors who made ****loads more than Military Personel seemed to be a pretty touchy subject in Iraq for awhile.

I think Americans have really done a decent job of supporting our Troops and trying to honor their sacrifice. If I'm wrong I'll gladly listen to it especially if it leads to us making the disconnect between military and non-military better and less of a us against you situation like it seems to be if you haven't served. I have always supported kids who are loss and looking for a place to learn discipline and support the Country and help keep our Freedoms Safe and tried to hook them up with folks I know who were or are military as mentors as they consider signing up for one of the Branches of the Armed Services. For our Country to continue to get the best and the brightest I think we need to all try to put an end to this disconnect and get back to the fact that it's your duty as an American to serve or at least support those that do serve instead of blast hot air up each others asses and create hatred.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

I know many of you and since 2000 I have noticed this even more...that there is this movement to create a disconnect like the 1960s when there was a ****load of Americans and College Students who "Don't get it" but I have to say that what I have really seen is that most of America since 9-11-2001 have done nothing but support our Troops and assist the families of the Fallen.

Although I understand that there are some folks that will never get it....it's always going to be that way as I'll never believe you'll ever see 100% of folks get it.

What concerns me is this "if you aren't Military you aren't ****" kind of attitude when our Country and it's masses have really tried to keep a 1960s type of Anti-War movement from occurring again.
What do you mean by movement to create a disconnect? Just they way you phrase that statement makes it (to me) sound like you believe there is a group/person driving or planning the disconnect.

I couldn't agree more with the "if you aren't military you aren't ****" part. There's a few of those jerkoffs on here, and its sick to think that joining the military is the only or best way you can learn discipline, get an education or "be a man". Its disgusting, and people's lives are being destroyed because they believe propaganda thats fed to them like this.



I am worried that some attitudes do nothing positive and I am worried that should we ever need a Draft again that it will divide our Country even further. Bush had to bring the National Guard into Iraq instead of call for a Draft and I still think it was a mistake but doing so did help us avoid the Anti-Military sentiment we saw in the 1960s. However Contractors who made ****loads more than Military Personel seemed to be a pretty touchy subject in Iraq for awhile.

I think Americans have really done a decent job of supporting our Troops and trying to honor their sacrifice. If I'm wrong I'll gladly listen to it especially if it leads to us making the disconnect between military and non-military better and less of a us against you situation like it seems to be if you haven't served. I have always supported kids who are loss and looking for a place to learn discipline and support the Country and help keep our Freedoms Safe and tried to hook them up with folks I know who were or are military as mentors as they consider signing up for one of the Branches of the Armed Services. For our Country to continue to get the best and the brightest I think we need to all try to put an end to this disconnect and get back to the fact that it's your duty as an American to serve or at least support those that do serve instead of blast hot air up each others asses and create hatred.
You think it would have been a better idea to call up a draft than the National Guard?

On the bolded part again, its horrible that many find the military to be their only way out of a hard situation! For our country to continue to be the best, most free nation in the world, we need to use our military only when there is no other choice, like in Afghanistan. But the military is neither equipped nor trained for full fledged nation building, so as long as we continue to attempt to get the military to do something not part of their job description, there will continue to be massive **** ups that do nothing but create more enemies for us to deal with.

[diverdog]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44052335#44052335

They mention my friend, John Brown.

FB group dedicated to him, if you're interested in reading:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/158697830870940/

Veritas:

Very few people realize that the Air Force is heavily embedded with the SEALS. Every time we carried a SEAL platoon you would see AF FAC's and PJ's with them. I can guarantee that there were AF SF on the OBL raid as well. They always say the SEALS are the quiet warriors but the SF group in the AF is about the quietest of them all.

People also do not realize their training is every bit as rigorous as the SEALS and in some instances harder because if you fail a school you are done. Plus the water training is more extensive than what the SEALS get. Doesn't seem right until you understand their jobs.

[StoopTroup]

You think it would have been a better idea to call up a draft than the National Guard?

On the bolded part again, its horrible that many find the military to be their only way out of a hard situation! For our country to continue to be the best, most free nation in the world, we need to use our military only when there is no other choice, like in Afghanistan. But the military is neither equipped nor trained for full fledged nation building, so as long as we continue to attempt to get the military to do something not part of their job description, there will continue to be massive **** ups that do nothing but create more enemies for us to deal with.

As far as the first of what I said....it pretty obvious our Country is divided. If you don't see it that way...then you aren't paying attention.

The National Guard? Yes. Bush misused them IMO. If we needed them until he could get OK'd to have the Draft....then fine....but he didn't because it would have been political suicide.

Now because of all of this Politics our Country is even further divided.

Our Country is in a mess and we have nobody to blame for it but ourselves. If you can tell me what other Country is to blame or which Terrorist group...I'd loved to read your conclusions.

It's America's fault. The Military's backbone is now coming from the Middle of the Country and the East and West Coasts aren't near the recruiting hotspots they once were. This causes a disconnect especially when we do go to War. Yeah the Draft caused lots of problems but it's something that we must consider as a Superpower and especially if this War on Terror continues to spread us thin around the World. The National Guard is here to Back-up the Military but it is here to protect the US from attack when our Military is away fighting all over the World or helping in Areas like Korea.

I'm sure we all have varying opinions but I will always support a Draft as it's our Duty as Americans to be there when called upon.

[AlboSooner]

I would be shocked if ISI was not somehow involved. One of my favorite intelligence analysts, Michael Scheuer said in many of his books that the era of torrorist organization with a supporting country is over, and he pointed al Al-Qaeda as the example. Well, Al-Qaeda has had Pakistani support all this time, so his theory is invalid imo. If it weren't for Pakistan, al-qaeda and the taliban would cease to be effective in a month.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

As far as the first of what I said....it pretty obvious our Country is divided. If you don't see it that way...then you aren't paying attention.

The National Guard? Yes. Bush misused them IMO. If we needed them until he could get OK'd to have the Draft....then fine....but he didn't because it would have been political suicide.

Now because of all of this Politics our Country is even further divided.

Our Country is in a mess and we have nobody to blame for it but ourselves. If you can tell me what other Country is to blame or which Terrorist group...I'd loved to read your conclusions.

It's America's fault. The Military's backbone is now coming from the Middle of the Country and the East and West Coasts aren't near the recruiting hotspots they once were. This causes a disconnect especially when we do go to War. Yeah the Draft caused lots of problems but it's something that we must consider as a Superpower and especially if this War on Terror continues to spread us thin around the World. The National Guard is here to Back-up the Military but it is here to protect the US from attack when our Military is away fighting all over the World or helping in Areas like Korea.

I'm sure we all have varying opinions but I will always support a Draft as it's our Duty as Americans to be there when called upon.
Okay, yeah I agree I just misunderstood what you're saying.

A draft would not only be political suicide, it would be economic and cultural suicide. You're not only putting the wrong kind of people in the military, you're forcefully relocating the labor force where it doesn't belong. Those reasons aside, military drafts are nothing short of slavery that should be outlawed under the Thirteenth Amendment. Yes, I'm aware of "Selective Draft Law Cases" issued by the Supreme Court in 1918 that said the draft is not unconstitutional, but thats the same court that ruled unanimously in Schenck v United States that the Espionage Act was constitutional for Christ's sake. Any nation that calls itself free and liberty loving should never resort to such tyrannical methods to get anything done.

Of course its our fault, and we've sowed the seeds of our own destruction from the start. But its our fault because we've tried to fight too much, not because too many people don't want to fight.

Please show me where exactly in the Constitution that all Americans have a duty to "be there when called upon". The government cannot be trusted with such ultimate power like a military draft, which creates the need for additional suppression of dissent at home. See the rise of COINTELPRO in the 1960s for an example. I don't expect to see eye to eye or ever agree with many of you on this subject, but I proudly hope my generation would firmly reject any sort of draft. Of course Dean will say "we just don't get it" and I'll say Dean just doesn't get it and we will never convince the other of anything. If by some horrible chance a draft were instituted to do anything except defend the continental United States from a large conventional attack, for example a draft to bolster service numbers in Iraq or Afghanistan, I can say pretty confidently I'd be out of here and I wouldn't have a problem with not being allowed back.

[A Sooner in Texas]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44052335#44052335

They mention my friend, John Brown.

FB group dedicated to him, if you're interested in reading:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/158697830870940/

Veritas, I am so sorry about the loss of your friend...and about the loss of all these incredible, brave Americans.

[btb916]

This is terrible news for the families and friends of all that died. Also for our country, as we lost many brave soldiers. SEALs and special ops guys are a special breed.

[MsProudSooner2]

1994 Comments of Wally Parr, a WWII veteran who helped keep the Pegasus Bridge in Allied hands on D-Day, 1944.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rBOYIjdki0

[diverdog]

Our Country is in a mess and we have nobody to blame for it but ourselves. If you can tell me what other Country is to blame or which Terrorist group...I'd loved to read your conclusions.

It's America's fault. The Military's backbone is now coming from the Middle of the Country and the East and West Coasts aren't near the recruiting hotspots they once were. This causes a disconnect especially when we do go to War. Yeah the Draft caused lots of problems but it's something that we must consider as a Superpower and especially if this War on Terror continues to spread us thin around the World. The National Guard is here to Back-up the Military but it is here to protect the US from attack when our Military is away fighting all over the World or helping in Areas like Korea.

I'm sure we all have varying opinions but I will always support a Draft as it's our Duty as Americans to be there when called upon.

Stoop:

I think you are wrong. The top 5 recruiting states have been California, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio. The coast is where most people live and that is the place where most recruits come from.

[olevetonahill]

Stoop:

I think you are wrong. The top 5 recruiting states have been California, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio. The coast is where most people live and that is the place where most recruits come from.

Wrong Cali comes in at 25th Okla at 18th ;)

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/mil_tot_mil_rec_arm_nav_air_for-recruits-army-navy-air-force

[StoopTroup]

Some folks I know don't think in percentages. Also...recruiting numbers as subject to change but I dare say that for awhile the Bible Belt and Mid-West was really a hotspot.

[diverdog]

Wrong Cali comes in at 25th Okla at 18th ;)

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/mil_tot_mil_rec_arm_nav_air_for-recruits-army-navy-air-force

Someting is really fishy about that site. If you go to total number of Army recruits for California is well over 8000 and the other link for total recruits show California at a much lower number.

Military Statistics > Total Army Recruits (most recent) by state

VIEW DATA:* * Totals * * Per capita *
Definition *** Source ** * Printable version***
** * Bar Graph * * Pie Chart * * Map * * Correlations *

Showing latest available data.
Rank** States* Amount*
# 1 * **California: 8,304 *
# 2 * **Texas: 7,750 *
# 3 * **New York: 4,153 *
# 4 * **Pennsylvania: 3,098 *
# 5 * **Ohio: 2,999 *
# 6 * **Illinois: 2,979 *
# 7 * **Virginia: 2,818 *
# 8 * **Georgia: 2,639 *
# 9 * **Michigan: 2,278 *
# 10 * **Washington: 2,065 *
# 11 * **Missouri: 2,038 *
# 12 * **Arizona: 1,926 *
# 13 * **Indiana: 1,813 *
# 14 * **Alabama: 1,741 *
# 15 * **Maryland: 1,546 *
# 16 * **South Carolina: 1,544 *
# 17 * **New Jersey: 1,476 *
# 18 * **Tennessee: 1,473 *
# 19 * **Wisconsin: 1,465 *
# 20 * **Oklahoma: 1,416 *
# 21 * **Colorado: 1,369 *
# 22 * **Massachusetts: 1,217 *
# 23 * **Kentucky: 1,181 *
# 24 * **Kansas: 1,143 *
# 25 * **Minnesota: 1,100 *
# 26 * **Puerto Rico: 1,017 *
# 27 * **Oregon: 920 *
# 28 * **Mississippi: 837 *
# 29 * **Arkansas: 828 *
# 30 * **Iowa: 811 *
# 31 * **Utah: 600 *
# 32 * **West Virginia: 587 *
# 33 * **Nebraska: 585 *
# 34 * **Connecticut: 559 *
# 35 * **New Mexico: 543 *
# 36 * **Nevada: 522 *
# 37 * **Florida: 486 *
# 38 * **Maine: 476 *
# 39 * **Hawaii: 457 *
# 40 * **New Hampshire: 389 *
# 41 * **Montana: 374 *
# 42 * **Idaho: 373 *
# 43 * **North Carolina: 266 *
# 44 * **Alaska: 261 *
# 45 * **South Dakota: 232 *
# 46 * **Delaware: 193 *
# 47 * **North Dakota: 191 *
# 48 * **Rhode Island: 172 *
# 49 * **Louisiana: 168 *
# 50 * **Wyoming: 134 *
# 51 * **Vermont: 113 *
# 52 * **District of Columbia: 110 *
# 53 * **Guam: 82 *
# 54 * **US Virgin Islands: 37 *
# 55 * **American Samoa: 31 *
Total: 73,885 **
Weighted average: 1,343.4**




DEFINITION: Total Army Recruits. The number of new Army recruits in 2004. Includes Active Army and Army Reserves.

SOURCE: National Priorities Project Database, 2004
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[okie52]

Wrong Cali comes in at 25th Okla at 18th ;)

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/mil_tot_mil_rec_arm_nav_air_for-recruits-army-navy-air-force


If you go per capita OK is number 3 behind Guam and Montana.

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/mil_tot_mil_rec_arm_nav_air_for_percap-navy-air-force-per-capita

[diverdog]

Arrgh. They are escorting the families of the dead soldiers from the hotels to the base. Just saw them pass by. A police escort was assigned to them.

[diverdog]

Obama is here in Dover. Traffic is backed up everywhere.

[sappstuf]

Obama is here in Dover. Traffic is backed up everywhere.

It was the right thing to do though.

[diverdog]

It was the right thing to do though.

Yep. No one is complaining.

[soonercruiser]

Some resolution....too late!

Airstrike Kills Taliban Militants Who Shot Down Helicopter
VOA News
The commander of U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan says an airstrike has killed the militants responsible for last week's helicopter crash that killed 38 Americans and Afghans.
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Airstrike-Kills-Taliban-Militants-Who-Shot-Down-Helicopter-127456053.html

http://dyn.politico.com/members/forums/thread.cfm?catid=1&subcatid=56&threadid=5786731

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/world/asia/11military.html