U.S. has high taxes on Corporations

[SoonerKnight]

How do these companies manage:


1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.


2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.


3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.


4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.


5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.


6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.


7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.


8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.


9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.


10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.

[Fraggle145]

Dont worry the added interest on my student loans will save you!!!

[GKeeper316]

but... they're creating jorbs!

at least that's why the pubs claim the tax breaks are beneficial....

[OUHOMER]

Yes, I know those companys added jobs just because they were good corporate citizens. yea right :rolleyes:

[SoonerKnight]

Dont worry the added interest on my student loans will save you!!!

You see they get Billions and Trillions of dollars in tax payer money. They make huge profits and then lay off workers to increase those profits because they are the job creators. You on the other hand are simply trying to get an education and must be punished because you don't have the money to pay cash for school! You still have your deferment just not the gov't paying your interest. So when you get out of school and the 6 months are up you'll still be poor because your not going to jump in and get a six figure job right out of school school.

[GKeeper316]

Yes, I know those companys added jobs just because they were good corporate citizens. yea right :rolleyes:

when i get hired at any new job, i point out that the company will recieve a tax break for hiring me, an honorably discharged veteran. the break was put in there under the hope that said companies would pass on at least a portion of the tax break to the veteran in additional compensation. not a single company has ever done that for me.

[okie52]

but... they're creating jorbs!

at least that's why the pubs claim the tax breaks are beneficial....

You're not very close to a libertarian.

[okie52]

The stupidity of some on this thread is hard to imagine.

Exxon paid $40,000,000,000 in taxes in 2008, more than half of the taxpayers in the US paid.

For the idiots that didn't notice, the price of oil hit $33 a barrel in 2009, extraction costs were over 50 a barrel.

[tommieharris91]

Exxon paid more in taxes in the USA than they made in the states because of taxes on their overseas profits.

If anyone wants to get pissed at a corporation, they should get pissed at obama's buddy immelt and GE. GE is paying zero taxes and shipping jobs overseas.

We did already.

[GKeeper316]

You're not very close to a libertarian.


ugh...

yes i am, in principle.

i'm also pragmatic. i understand that it can't be one way or another.

[okie52]

ugh...

yes i am, in principle.

i'm also pragmatic. i understand that it can't be one way or another.

Nope, not close to pragmatic or libertarian. For libertarians business rules... CorpOrations are the gods.

Pragmatists would recognize that economics ultimately will rule the globe....not some misguided attempt to balance the "wealth" or forcibly dictate a social agenda.

[GKeeper316]

For the idiots that didn't notice, the price of oil hit $33 a barrel in 2009, extraction costs were over 50 a barrel.

which was a five year low, lasted a little over 3 weeks in jan-feb, 09 and by the end of the year was back over $90 per barrel. it was $147 per barrel in 2008.

its still over $90 a barrel.

http://www.oil-price.net/

[GKeeper316]

Nope, not close to pragmatic or libertarian. For libertarians business rules... CorpOrations are the gods.

Pragmatists would recognize that economics ultimately will rule the globe....not some misguided attempt to balance the "wealth" or forcibly dictate a social agenda.

so we should all move to india where the jobs and the cheap housing to live in on those wages are. got it.

and you couldn't be more wrong about what libertarians stand for or what a pragmatist is.

[okie52]

which was a five year low, lasted a little over 3 weeks in jan-feb, 09 and by the end of the year was back over $90 per barrel. it was $147 per barrel in 2008.

its still over $90 a barrel.

http://www.oil-price.net/

Hence the low tax return in 2009. Duh!!!

[okie52]

so we should all move to india where the jobs and the cheap housing to live in on those wages are. got it.

and you couldn't be more wrong about what libertarians stand for or what a pragmatist is.

If you are a libertarian then yes... You should move your businesses to India or China.

You really don't have a clue.

[Veritas]

when i get hired at any new job, i point out that the company will recieve a tax break for hiring me, an honorably discharged veteran.
Bull****. I employ two veterans and WOTC only applies under specific circumstances.


the break was put in there under the hope that said companies would pass on at least a portion of the tax break to the veteran in additional compensation. not a single company has ever done that for me.
More entitled bull****. "The main objective of this program is to enable the targeted employees to gradually move from economic dependency into self-sufficiency as they earn a steady income and become contributing taxpayers, while the participating employers are compensated by being able to reduce their federal income tax liability. "
http://www.doleta.gov/business/incentives/opptax/

[GKeeper316]

Bull****. I employ two veterans and WOTC only applies under specific circumstances.


More entitled bull****. "The main objective of this program is to enable the targeted employees to gradually move from economic dependency into self-sufficiency as they earn a steady income and become contributing taxpayers, while the participating employers are compensated by being able to reduce their federal income tax liability. "
http://www.doleta.gov/business/incentives/opptax/

nice copy/paste, and the hope, again, was that employers would pass some of those tax breaks on to the veteran in additional compensation, which would facilitate his becoming self-sufficient faster... and i was unaware the unemployed veteran group was no longer eligible and that they had changed the rules to apply only within a year of separation from service, so thx i guess.

[SoonerKnight]

Hence the low tax return in 2009. Duh!!!

Accept they paid not taxes in 2010 and received a refund duh!

[En_Fuego]

Exxon Mobil still hasn't payed for Captain Drunky's oil spill in the 80's

[pphilfran]

Each tax credit should be looked at individually...cost vs benefit/payback...

There will be some that are very ineffective and some that will be worth the cost...

Why was the initiative originally put into place? Does is still meet those goals? Does it fit into current policy?

If we pulled the tax subsidies for big oil would gas prices go up or down? Would big oil raise prices to make up for the incentive shortfall? Would the rate of drilling go up or down? Would the possibility of higher fuel prices harm our fragile economy? Do the incentives provide new job growth?

Those are some of the questions...if we pulled 10 billion in incentives will we do more than 10 billion in harm to the economy?

[Sooner24]

How do these companies manage:


1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.


2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.


3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.


4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.


5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.


6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.


7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.


8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.


9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.


10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.

Sounds like Earned Income Tax Credit to me.

[rekamrettuB]

A refund simply means you overpaid during the year. Same as individual tax returns that receive refunds. Getting a refund doesn't mean you didn't pay any taxes...just overpaid what was owed.

[GKeeper316]

A refund simply means you overpaid during the year. Same as individual tax returns that receive refunds. Getting a refund doesn't mean you didn't pay any taxes...just overpaid what was owed.

you aren't very creative with your deductions, are you?

[Caboose]

Wow, the tard crew strikes again on this thread.

[Caboose]

ugh...

yes i am, in principle.

i'm also pragmatic. i understand that it can't be one way or another.

I don't think you know what a Libertarian is.

[GKeeper316]

I don't think you know what a Libertarian is.

a libertarian is someone that places the civil liberties we enjoy as americans above every other consideration. i'm sure it's you that don't know what a libertarian is.

[Caboose]

a libertarian is someone that places the civil liberties we enjoy as americans above every other consideration. i'm sure it's you that don't know what a libertarian is.

Then you arent a Libertarian.

[rekamrettuB]

you aren't very creative with your deductions, are you?

I was this year. Made the most in my life but paid 0 in taxes. It might have helped that I had about $30K in medical deductions and a 2nd time homebuyer tax credit (or whatever it was called).

[GKeeper316]

Then you arent a Libertarian.

no that's exactly what a libertarian believes... hence the name... libertarian. libertarians are basically the aclu without all the law degrees.

[jkjsooner]

no that's exactly what a libertarian believes... hence the name... libertarian. libertarians are basically the aclu without all the law degrees.


Just want to chime in here since this post brought up a distinction that needs to be made.

Most libertarians (at least that I've been exposed to) believe that the government is the source of restrictions on individual liberties. In fact, many such as Rand Paul believe that the civil rights laws are an assault on individual liberties as a store owner should have the freedom to serve whomever he chooses to serve.

The key is who you think takes away your liberties.


government
other citizens/corporations
both


From my uneducated experience this simple question is very important in defining one's political ideology.

The ACLU will fight for liberties no matter who is the villian. I don't see many self proclaimed libertarians doing this.

This is one reason I could never consider myself a libertarian. I do believe we need as much individual liberty as feasible but I also believe we need protection not only from the government but also from other citizens. To do the latter, that may require restrictions on the other party (something a libertarian despises).

[OutlandTrophy]

Bull****. I employ two veterans and WOTC only applies under specific circumstances.


More entitled bull****. "The main objective of this program is to enable the targeted employees to gradually move from economic dependency into self-sufficiency as they earn a steady income and become contributing taxpayers, while the participating employers are compensated by being able to reduce their federal income tax liability. "
http://www.doleta.gov/business/incentives/opptax/

Sweet baby blue Jesus, seriously, how many times is this guy going to get called out for flat out lying and making stuff up?

It's very difficult to take anything GKeeper says serious as he gets exposed for fabricating things and trying to pass them off as the truth at least once a week.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

How do these companies manage:


1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.


2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.


3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.


4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.


5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.


6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.


7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.


8) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.


9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.


10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.

Sarbanes-Oxley says Hi

[GKeeper316]

Sweet baby blue Jesus, seriously, how many times is this guy going to get called out for flat out lying and making stuff up?

It's very difficult to take anything GKeeper says serious as he gets exposed for fabricating things and trying to pass them off as the truth at least once a week.

yes... we already established that the reqs had changed since my exit briefing when i was discharged in 95.

[GKeeper316]

This is one reason I could never consider myself a libertarian. I do believe we need as much individual liberty as feasible but I also believe we need protection not only from the government but also from other citizens. To do the latter, that may require restrictions on the other party (something a libertarian despises).

and therein lies the fundamental flaw with true libertarianism in that true liberty for all is anarchy. we accept that in order to live as a peaceful civilization, we have to restrict people's actions in order to protect other people.

no you may not rape a child, no matter how much you'd like to, and not suffer the consequences. people on this board like to whine bitch and moan about the size and scope of government and how much they have to pay in taxes, but by god whenever someone does something naughty, they want the government to either kill them or lock them away forever... but they don't want to pay for it.

[Caboose]

and therein lies the fundamental flaw with true libertarianism in that true liberty for all is anarchy. we accept that in order to live as a peaceful civilization, we have to restrict people's actions in order to protect other people.

no you may not rape a child, no matter how much you'd like to, and not suffer the consequences. people on this board like to whine bitch and moan about the size and scope of government and how much they have to pay in taxes, but by god whenever someone does something naughty, they want the government to either kill them or lock them away forever... but they don't want to pay for it.

No, that is not what Libertarianism is. Libertarians are not anarchists. Nor do they believe you should be able to rape children if you want to. I swear every time you open your mouth more stupid falls out. You don't know sh*t about any single topic you post about.

[GKeeper316]

No, that is not what Libertarianism is. Libertarians are not anarchists. Nor do they believe you should be able to rape children if you want to. I swear every time you open your moth more stupid falls out. You don't know sh*t about any single topic you post about it.

you don't have a clue what libertarianism is.

[Caboose]

you don't have a clue what libertarianism is.

Right, you've really got everyone convinced.

[usmc-sooner]

yes... we already established that the reqs had changed since my exit briefing when i was discharged in 95.

they did exit briefings for discharching in 95? You sure you didn't just go to TAPS class.

[OutlandTrophy]

No, that is not what Libertarianism is. Libertarians are not anarchists. Nor do they believe you should be able to rape children if you want to. I swear every time you open your moth more stupid falls out. You don't know sh*t about any single topic you post about is.
He will just tell you that they must have changed the definition since the last meeting he went to.

[GKeeper316]

i was merely using the rape scenario as an example of how we restrict the actions of the individual for the sake of an ordered society.

if you're too stupid to understand and recognize an obvious exaggeration for the sake of making a point, you get a big giant ****ing "F".


it may have been a TAPS class i don't remember. i just remember it was at the mainside theater at pendleton and there were about 75-100 other marines there getting all the info they needed to end thier service, and that most of what they were telling us didn't apply to me since i was getting discharged with a service related disability and couldn't be in the IRR.

[Caboose]

i was merely using the rape scenario as an example of how we restrict the actions of the individual for the sake of an ordered society.

if you're too stupid to understand and recognize an obvious exaggeration for the sake of making a point, you get a big giant ****ing "F".




LOL, you use a scenario that is nothing like the subject you are describing to make a point... yet I am the one that gets the F? Let's keep this going and see what other retarded things youll say in this thread.

[GKeeper316]

LOL, you use a scenario that is nothing like the subject you are describing to make a point... yet I am the one that gets the F? Let's keep this going and see what other retarded things youll say in this thread.

what the **** are you talking about?

[GKeeper316]

we, as a society, have gotten together and collectively decided to restrict the actions of individuals for the sake of an ordered society. how is that hard to understand?

[Caboose]

we, as a society, have gotten together and collectively decided to restrict the actions of individuals for the sake of an ordered society. how is that hard to understand?

That isn't hard to understand... its that you tried to claim that it somehow goes against Libertarianism and that Libertarianism is anarchy is why I am calling you a complete ****ing retard that doesn't know the first thing about Libertarianism.

On edit... You know what? It is worse than being a retard. It is willful ignorance. You don't want to take the time to learn about these topics that you gladly spew your worthless p*ss-ignorant opinion about. You just want to keep believing in whatever bull**** you already believe no matter how solidly the facts say you are full of ****.

[GKeeper316]

That isn't hard to understand... its that you tried to claim that it somehow goes against Libertarianism and that Libertarianism is anarchy is why I am calling you a complete ****ing retard that doesn't know the first thing about Libertarianism.

and you have yet to toss up what you think libertarianism is, so please ****in enlighten me, since you're all smrt n ****.

[GKeeper316]

pure libertarianism is anarchy, you idiot. the second one man, or a group of people tell another man he can't do something, that he isn't at liberty to do something, you have infringed upon his freedom for the sake of order.

why is that so hard to get through your tiny little brain? i've met some people that lack the capacity for abstract thought, but you take the cake, i swear. you're like this chick i knew in high school that got straight As, but couldn't understand a joke... literally had to spend 10 minutes explaining to her why the joke was funny.

[Caboose]

pure libertarianism is anarchy

FAIL. You don't know a goddam thing about it. Every time you even suggest that you look like more and more of an uneducated mouth breathing dip-sh*t. Willful ignorance.


Fix this before you even attempt to continue.

[GKeeper316]

FAIL. You don't know a goddam thing about it. Every time you even suggest that you look like more and more of an uneducated mouth breathing dip-sh*t. Willful ignorance.


Fix this before you even attempt to continue.

and i'll bet everything i own you've never taken a philosophy course, or a comparative politics course or any college level course designed to make you use your brain for something other than keeping your head from caving in.

[GKeeper316]

i'm still waiting for you to tell me what libertarianism is...

[GKeeper316]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

there you go, dickhead. i'm right. again.

[Caboose]

and i'll bet everything i own you've never taken a philosophy course, or a comparative politics course or any college level course designed to make you use your brain for something other than keeping your head from caving in.

Are you suggesting that you paid money for your p*ss-ignorant worldview? You took f*cking courses designed to make you think and you are still this backwards?

[Sooner5030]

don't confuse order with State order. There is a natural order that exist without the State. Libertarianism is not anarchy.

[GKeeper316]

yup. and i'm glad i did. because... i was right. you are wrong. because you're an idiot that can't think.

[GKeeper316]

don't confuse order with State order. There is a natural order that exist without the State. Libertarianism is not anarchy.

omg yes it is!!!

you people havn't studied libertarianism. you just think you know what it is because there's a political party in america that calls itself libertarian, but is just fiscally conservative while socially liberal... that is not what libertarian means.

[Caboose]

yup. and i'm glad i did. because... i was right. you are wrong. because you're an idiot that can't think.

No, you don't think. You just regurgitate whatever talking point you heard some Liberal mouthpiece wretch up.

[GKeeper316]

i'm guessing caboose is one of the tards that likes to stand up and scream "Socialism" any time a democrat proposes any sort of agenda or legislation, but doesn't even know that there's a couple dozen different socialistic models, and that all government services are inherently socialist in nature.

again. study. read. use your god damned brains.

[Sooner5030]

Gkeeper316,

there are numerous examples throughout history and even today of natural or social order without the existence or presence of State order.

[GKeeper316]

Gkeeper316,

there are numerous examples throughout history and even today of natural or social order without the existence or presence of State order.

ya its called communism and its the oldest form of government known to man. human beings banding together for mutual safety and cooperation in doing things like hunting for food and growing crops, and defending themselves from aggressive neighbors

[Sooner5030]

then why are you stating that libertarianism is anarchy. Even that link you provided described anarchist as only 1 of multiple groups within libertarianism.

[Sooner24]

Ibtl

[GKeeper316]

No, you don't think. You just regurgitate whatever talking point you heard some Liberal mouthpiece wretch up.

and you have yet to even make a single point in this thread. all you've done is insult me and tell me i'm wrong, but offer up no evidence to support your position, so **** off.

[GKeeper316]

then why are you stating that libertarianism is anarchy. Even that link you provided described anarchist as only 1 of multiple groups within libertarianism.

because libertarianism in its most basic form is every man for himself. that is anarchy.

[GKeeper316]

come on caboose! i'm waiting for you to tell me what libertarianism is!!!

[GKeeper316]

still waiting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GKeeper316]

awwww did da widdle caboose get out-thunk by lil ol me?

[MamaMia]

Our corporation paid 33.72% if you average the state and federal, after deductions.

I thought the libertarian platform called for a flat tax? :confused:

[TheLadiesMike]

A refund simply means you overpaid during the year. Same as individual tax returns that receive refunds. Getting a refund doesn't mean you didn't pay any taxes...just overpaid what was owed.

Thread right here.

[diverdog]

Thread right here.

Or you lied and cheated on your taxes which happens all the time.

[okie52]

pure libertarianism is anarchy, you idiot. the second one man, or a group of people tell another man he can't do something, that he isn't at liberty to do something, you have infringed upon his freedom for the sake of order.

why is that so hard to get through your tiny little brain? i've met some people that lack the capacity for abstract thought, but you take the cake, i swear. you're like this chick i knew in high school that got straight As, but couldn't understand a joke... literally had to spend 10 minutes explaining to her why the joke was funny.

So you are an anarchist?

[GKeeper316]

So you are an anarchist?

geezus its like they can't even read, or if they can they don't comprehend the words....

[MR2-Sooner86]

come on caboose! i'm waiting for you to tell me what libertarianism is!!!

If you ask the GOP it's "a Trojan Horse for liberalism" into the Republican Party because it has "lib" at the front of it. Yeah...it's sad how many times I've heard that and the person was serious.

It's simple, libertarianism, in a nutshell, is for personal liberty.

Now, you said pure libertarianism is anarchy. If to you anarchy is no government then pure Marxism is anarchy as well. Yes, if you really want a person to have ultimate liberty, there is no government rules or regulations over them. If there's no government, doesn't mean it has to be a certain way.

Not all anarchist agree on what they want. In Marxism you use government to take everything away, make everybody equal, and when society is ready you can dismantle the government as society won't need it. Many anarchist look at this and say, "no, no, no you can't trust government to give the power back so we must destroy the state and rebuild the proper society from the ground up once we bring it all down." There are other anarchist who just want to burn it all down so they can do whatever they want with no repercussions.

There are so many different flavors of certain politics it's hard to keep up with all of them. China and North Korea are both communist countries but does that mean they're exactly alike? No, they're both very different.


I thought the libertarian platform called for a flat tax?

Some do but others don't.

Most libertarians I've talked to either support the Fair Tax or a flat tax with most supporting the Fair Tax.

[okie52]

geezus its like they can't even read, or if they can they don't comprehend the words....

You really have a hard time defining yourself. You are a libertarian and a pragmatist. You define libertarians as anarchists. You would support a president and/Or party that's view, for the most part, are diametrically opposed to those of libertarians...there is nothing pragmatic about that...just a bunch of incoherent pOsitions that have little in common.

[GKeeper316]

You really have a hard time defining yourself. You are a libertarian and a pragmatist. You define libertarians as anarchists. You would support a president and/Or party that's view, for the most part, are diametrically opposed to those of libertarians...there is nothing pragmatic about that...just a bunch of incoherent pOsitions that have little in common.

well i suppose if i had such a limited world view as you, i might accept that idealist libertarianism and pragmatic realism were mutually exclusive, then yes i could see how my opinions would be hard for you to define.

as it stands, i see no conflict in wishing things were one way and dealing with them as they are.

[okie52]

well i suppose if i had such a limited world view as you, i might accept that idealist libertarianism and pragmatic realism were mutually exclusive, then yes i could see how my opinions would be hard for you to define.

as it stands, i see no conflict in wishing things were one way and dealing with them as they are.

Pragmatism is based on logic...a discipline that totally escapes you.

If you "wish" for no regulations, Laissez faire, and no safety nets, etc... then you would not support people or groups that would be the most opposed to those "wishes" when offered alternatives that are closer to your espoused beliefs.

Just admit you are a dem and toss aside this silly, transparent charade of wishing for libertarianism. You don't have to be ashamed of it. There are many dems on here that are proud of their party that don't feel the need to seek protective cover by disguising their beliefs.

[pphilfran]

:pop:

[sappstuf]

:pop:

Phil did you see the number of Volts sold in July?

[pphilfran]

Phil did you see the number of Volts sold in July?

Nope, do I have to take off my shoes to count em?

I have the new auto sales data...better than I thought...will post it later...

[sappstuf]

Nope, do I have to take off my shoes to count em?

I have the new auto sales data...better than I thought...will post it later...

125...

They are saying they are having supply issues, but that they are “virtually sold out”. There are 11 for sale in the San Antonio area..

They are supposed to increase production to 5000 a month in January. Any bets?

[pphilfran]

125...

They are saying they are having supply issues, but that they are “virtually sold out”. There are 11 for sale in the San Antonio area..

They are supposed to increase production to 5000 a month in January. Any bets?

5000 has been their goal for a while...unless gas prices skyrocket I will go with the under...way under...

I don't know if production is the problem...but being an old production guy I do know that it can take a year of more to get production up to schedule when you are dealing with a complex new product line...

[GKeeper316]

Pragmatism is based on logic...a discipline that totally escapes you.

If you "wish" for no regulations, Laissez faire, and no safety nets, etc... then you would not support people or groups that would be the most opposed to those "wishes" when offered alternatives that are closer to your espoused beliefs.

Just admit you are a dem and toss aside this silly, transparent charade of wishing for libertarianism. You don't have to be ashamed of it. There are many dems on here that are proud of their party that don't feel the need to seek protective cover by disguising their beliefs.

i've not made it a secret that i vote democratic.

[pphilfran]

Also, they are only selling in limited markets at the current time...if I am not mistaken they will branch out as this year progresses...

I will still take the under...

[pphilfran]

i've not made it a secret that i vote democratic.

That verifies that the correct vote is Republican...:D

[GKeeper316]

That verifies that the correct vote is Republican...:D

well to be honest... i'm still a registered republican. i just like to vote in republican primaries to skew the numbers. cuz i'm subversively evil.

[sappstuf]

Also, they are only selling in limited markets at the current time...if I am not mistaken they will branch out as this year progresses...

I will still take the under...

I could go out and increase their monthly sales by 9% just by buying what is available in San Antonio...

It doesn't paint a pretty picture. They might be off by a factor of 10...

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

I guess people kinda missed the S/Ox reference.

The complete and total irony of the offshoring of US capital is that 2 democrats pretty much assured it would happen. S/Ox was done in the midst of the dot.com collapse and particularly the Worldcom scandal. Basically it opened the way for shareholders to litigate companies that were "not maximizing shareholder value".

There are a number of factors for shareholder value, but lets keep this simple and say that profit and dividends are the two main factors. How can you maximize these by paying taxes in the US?

[pphilfran]

I guess people kinda missed the S/Ox reference.

The complete and total irony of the offshoring of US capital is that 2 democrats pretty much assured it would happen. S/Ox was done in the midst of the dot.com collapse and particularly the Worldcom scandal. Basically it opened the way for shareholders to litigate companies that were "not maximizing shareholder value".

There are a number of factors for shareholder value, but lets keep this simple and say that profit and dividends are the two main factors. How can you maximize these by paying taxes in the US?

I am sure it was another piece of the puzzle...

[NormanPride]

Wasn't S/Ox intended to prevent the top people in corporations from being immune to prosecution for SEC violations and the like?

[soonercruiser]

well to be honest... i'm still a registered republican. i just like to vote in republican primaries to skew the numbers. cuz i'm subversively evil.

...and likes to ride the bus to.....an all expense paid vacation in Wisconsin in November! :D

[Caboose]

well to be honest... i'm still a registered republican. i just like to vote in republican primaries to skew the numbers. cuz i'm subversively evil.

You aren't evil, you just don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[pphilfran]

You aren't evil, you just don't know what the hell you are talking about.

:D

[GKeeper316]

You aren't evil, you just don't know what the hell you are talking about.

says the guy i just proved wrong... a lot.

i'm still waiting for you to enlighten me on what libertarianism is....

[Caboose]

says the guy i just proved wrong... a lot.

i'm still waiting for you to enlighten me on what libertarianism is....

Right.. you "proved" that libertarianism was anarchy by linking to a wiki page that didn't say it was anarchy. Flippin brilliant.

Tell ya what, I will tell you what libertarianism is as soon as you stop avoiding answering which of Obama's policies you support in the other thread.

[pphilfran]

Somebody on this thread is a glutton for punishment...and I ain't gonna give any hints...

[GKeeper316]

Right.. you "proved" that libertarianism was anarchy by linking to a wiki page that didn't say it was anarchy. Flippin brilliant.


everyone is entitled to his own opinion. you are not, however, entitled to your own facts.



Libertarian schools of thought differ over the degree to which the state should be reduced. Anarchists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism) advocate complete elimination of the state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity)). Minarchists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchism) advocate a state which is limited to protecting its citizens from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud. Some libertarians go further, such as by supporting minimal public assistance for the poor.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#cite_note-hamowy-0) Additionally, some schools are supportive of private property rights in the ownership of unappropriated land and natural resources while others reject such private ownership and often support common ownership instead.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#cite_note-consistent_on_self-emancipation.2C_anti-state.2C_anti-property-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism#cite_note-3) Another distinction can be made among libertarians who support private ownership and co-operative ownership of the means of production (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production); the former generally supporting a capitalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalist) economy, the latter a libertarian socialist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialist) economic system.




Tell ya what, I will tell you what libertarianism is as soon as you stop avoiding answering which of Obama's policies you support in the other thread.

ahhh the last cry of the lost arguement... deflect an answer and try to make a completely irrelevent point about the winner of said arguement... just admit you don't know the first thing about different political models, structures or paradigms...

[sappstuf]

Somebody on this thread is a glutton for punishment...and I ain't gonna give any hints...

Well you keep showing support for GM... What am I supposed to do??? ;)

[pphilfran]

Well you keep showing support for GM... What am I supposed to do??? ;)

Damn, that's harsh....;)

[pphilfran]

GM is taking a huge risk with the Volt...they have billions invested into the thing...they think they can make it fly and be competitive with an ICE powered vehicle....they will lose money on the Volt for two or three more years....after that they might face NG competition...and that would probably be very bad to the Volt...

How many Leafs were sold?

[GKeeper316]

GM is taking a huge risk with the Volt...they have billions invested into the thing...they think they can make it fly and be competitive with an ICE powered vehicle....they will lose money on the Volt for two or three more years....after that they might face NG competition...and that would probably be very bad to the Volt...

How many Leafs were sold?

the decreased ability of japan to produce cars after the earthquakes is only going to help US auto manufacturers.

[sappstuf]

GM is taking a huge risk with the Volt...they have billions invested into the thing...they think they can make it fly and be competitive with an ICE powered vehicle....they will lose money on the Volt for two or three more years....after that they might face NG competition...and that would probably be very bad to the Volt...

How many Leafs were sold?

931..

[okie52]

i've not made it a secret that i vote democratic.

Never doubted you were a dem. The laughable part was you are a closet libertarian.

[GKeeper316]

Never doubted you were a dem. The laughable part was you are a closet libertarian.

because in practical politics, i don't agree with bending over backwards for the sake of business, and believe the state has a responsibility to protect the interests of the worker, or that workers should have the right to band together to look out for themselves.

and because i accept the the world i live in is less than what i view as ideal, i'm not even allowed to have an idillic point of view? really?

you and caboose don't have the first ****ing clue what you're talking about.

[okie52]

because in practical politics, i don't agree with bending over backwards for the sake of business, and believe the state has a responsibility to protect the interests of the worker, or that workers should have the right to band together to look out for themselves.

and because i accept the the world i live in is less than what i view as ideal, i'm not even allowed to have an idillic point of view? really?

you and caboose don't have the first ****ing clue what you're talking about.

Impressive. You long for libertarian utopia where businesses are the Gods of the economy but don't want to bend over backwards for business, you want the safety nets thrown out for the workers but believe the state has a duty to protect the worker?

You are allowed any confused view you want to profess but the lack of logic of your so-called beliefs is self evident.

I'm sure you would find Karl Marx's endorsement of Adam Smith as logical.

[GKeeper316]

Impressive. You long for libertarian utopia where businesses are the Gods of the economy but don't want to bend over backwards for business, you want the safety nets thrown out for the workers but believe the state has a duty to protect the worker?

You are allowed any confused view you want to profess but the lack of logic of your so-called beliefs is self evident.

I'm sure you would find Karl Marx's endorsement of Adam Smith as logical.

your reading comprehension is ****. how have you, an obviously functionally illiterate, managed to survive in the modern world unaided? o maybe that's it... you have someone follow you around to wipe your *** for you. i get it now. you never learned how to break down a sentence to understand the thought.

you're just makin **** up, now, to try to keep your already lost arguement alive. pathetic you can't even reason between what is and what should be.

[Position Limit]

Impressive. You long for libertarian utopia where businesses are the Gods of the economy but don't want to bend over backwards for business, you want the safety nets thrown out for the workers but believe the state has a duty to protect the worker?

You are allowed any confused view you want to profess but the lack of logic of your so-called beliefs is self evident.

I'm sure you would find Karl Marx's endorsement of Adam Smith as logical.

on what planet do you currently reside? that's on amazing leap in comprehension. wow.

[jkm, the stolen pifwafwi]

Wasn't S/Ox intended to prevent the top people in corporations from being immune to prosecution for SEC violations and the like?

That was only one part of it - particularly the "document your processes, have a manager sign off on it (throat to choke), do them" piece that held that manager liable for any abuses.

[okie52]

your reading comprehension is ****. how have you, an obviously functionally illiterate, managed to survive in the modern world unaided? o maybe that's it... you have someone follow you around to wipe your *** for you. i get it now. you never learned how to break down a sentence to understand the thought.

you're just makin **** up, now, to try to keep your already lost arguement alive. pathetic you can't even reason between what is and what should be.

So now you are saying you want safety nets? Is that libertarian? Really hard to keep up with your disconnected positions.

[okie52]

on what planet do you currently reside? that's on amazing leap in comprehension. wow.

Wow. Not surprised you find logic in his position.

[Position Limit]

Wow. Not surprised you find logic in his position.

i'm not sure you even know what your trying to write about. is the heat getting to you? lack of oxygen? ok now hit me with a socialist claim. i'm ready.

[okie52]

i'm not sure you even know what your trying to write about. is the heat getting to you? lack of oxygen? ok now hit me with a socialist claim. i'm ready.

It's obvious you don't. Are you on meds now and struggling to keep up?

Drunk posting is fun but is better late at night.

[okie52]

Originally Posted by okie52

Yeah, but he is advocating libertarian policies....and that isn't close to what Obama will doing. There isn't any wealth redistribution by the government...pure libertarianism is just about pure capitalism...no safety nets.




Originally Posted by GKeeper316

which im in favor of... the problem is that regulation and christian legislated morality has made pure capitalism impossible.



.

[GKeeper316]

again... there's a difference between the way things are and the way i think they should be. just because i think things should be one way, doesn't discount the need to live with the way they actually are.

why is that such a difficult concept for you to wrap your tiny little brain around?

i'm starting to think you're just being intentionally obtuse because you're too stupid to understand concepts that actually require a thought process.

so go put your helmet on, the short bus should be by any minute for you.

[OutlandTrophy]

your reading comprehension is ****. how have you, an obviously functionally illiterate, managed to survive in the modern world unaided? o maybe that's it... you have someone follow you around to wipe your *** for you. i get it now. you never learned how to break down a sentence to understand the thought.

you're just makin **** up, now, to try to keep your already lost arguement alive. pathetic you can't even reason between what is and what should be.

You are projecting again.

[okie52]

again... there's a difference between the way things are and the way i think they should be. just because i think things should be one way, doesn't discount the need to live with the way they actually are.

why is that such a difficult concept for you to wrap your tiny little brain around?

No difficulty in that "concept" at all. That is pragmatic. But stating you believe the world should be one way and embracing candidates/positions that are diametrically opposed to your "views" is not pragmatic when alternative candidates/positions are available that would be much closer to your libertarian utopia.

Now why is that concept so difficult for your incredible intellect to grasp?

[sappstuf]

Okie,

I don't remember which thread we were talking about Amtrak, but I ran across this story down here.


Extreme Heat Affects Rail Lines

The Texas heat wave has affected some rail service as high temperatures threaten to warp tracks.

The Denton County Transportation Authority has enacted a heat-speed restriction this week, with a slowdown in train speeds from 60 mph to 45 mph for the passenger line between Denton to Carrollton.

DCTA vice president Tom LeBeau said the slowdown is for safety reasons because of the extreme heat.

Dallas Area Rapid Transit said Trinity Railway Express trains will also operate at reduced speeds this week between 2 p.m. and 9 p.m.

Union Pacific Railroad on Tuesday afternoon notified New Braunfels police that a train was blocking a crossing due to heat-related problems with a section of rail. Traffic was rerouted as the line was checked. FM 306 reopened Tuesday night.

[okie52]

Okie,

I don't remember which thread we were talking about Amtrak was, but I ran across this story down here.

I don't remember which thread it was either, Sapp, but I wasn't even thinking about it being heat related. I thought it was because of a storm in TX.

[sappstuf]

I don't remember which thread it was either, Sapp, but I wasn't even thinking about it being heat related. I thought it was because of a storm in TX.

The on-time percentage of the Texas Eagle, which is what mom rode from Ft Worth is 57%.. Ouch.

[Sooner24]

The on-time percentage of the Texas Eagle, which is what mom rode from Ft Worth is 57%.. Ouch.

Ft Worth to where? We rode it from Ft Worth to San Antonio in June.

[sappstuf]

Ft Worth to where? We rode it from Ft Worth to San Antonio in June.

That is the one, although she got off at the San Marcos stop to save time since I live north of San Antonio on I-35.