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Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 06:52 PM
Students to feel pinch in debt deal


http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/01/news/economy/debt_ceiling_students/index.htm

WASHINGTON (CNNMoney) -- Some students will have to start paying off their loans while they're in school under a last-minute debt ceiling deal to keep the country out of default and reduce deficits by at least $2.1 trillion over a decade.

As part of the savings to trim the deficits, Congress would scrap a special kind of federal loan for graduate students. So-called subsidized student loans don't charge students any interest on the principal of student loans until six months after students graduated.

Congress would also nix a special credit for all students who make 12 months of on-time loan payments.

The changes would take place July 1, 2012.

For taxpayers, the savings taken from the pockets of students will total $21.6 billion over the next ten years, according to the Congressional Budget Office.
For graduate students who qualify for the maximum amount of subsidized loans, it could tack several thousand dollars to the cost of going to school.
The idea for the cuts originally came from the Republican-controlled House, but even Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid proposed cutting the graduate school subsidized loans in budget talks last week.

The idea is that the money saved by the student loan cuts would help pay to keep Pell Grants, which so far are maintained at a maximum grant of $5,500 a year for some 8 million poor students.

Of the $22 billion saved, $17 billion will go to fund Pell Grants, which only leaves that program $1.3 billion short, said student aid groups. That's why most groups can live with the cuts to graduate student loans.
The rest of the savings goes to deficit reduction.

"Full funding for Pell Grants is absolutely essential to fulfilling the president's goal of the U.S. once again having the highest proportion of college graduates in the world by 2020," said Pauline Abernathy, vice president of the Institute for College Access & Success.

The maximum a graduate student can borrow from the federal government is $20,500 a year, including $8,500 from subsidized loans where the federal government absorbs the interest rate while the student is in school. Over the course of a degree, graduate students can accrue up to $138,500 in direct federal loans, with $65,500 from subsidized loans.

A graduate student who borrows the maximum of $65,500 in subsidized loans would owe $207 a month in interest payments over the course of 10 years. But with a subsidized loan, the government pays that $207 each month the student attends school until six months after graduation.

This change would shift some $125 billion in loan volume over to unsubsidized loans and would cost students $18.1 billion over the next decade, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

The other big cut that Congress is targeting is a credit that all students get on the origination fee they pay the federal government to process their loans. Students pay 1% of the loan as an origination fee, but all students get half of that back unless they miss one of their first 12 payments.

The loss of that credit would cost a student who borrows $5,000 from the federal government $25. This would cost students $3.6 billion over the next decade, according to the budget office.


What I cant figure out is if this is just on new loans and/or if I am going to have to start paying while I'm still in school. :confused: If so (especially on paying while I'm still in school) I might as well jump off a bridge because I have no way to pay those on the salary that I am getting as a grad student. There is just no way. :(

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 07:01 PM
Did I mention special **** you goes out to those making over $250K?

Pay some more taxes ****ers.

:mad: (sorry just venting here)

The poor are going to get ****ed on this deal.

usmc-sooner
8/1/2011, 07:11 PM
they should probably get better jobs.

olevetonahill
8/1/2011, 07:14 PM
My Prayer
Lord help the rich, The poor can beg.
Amen

cccasooner2
8/1/2011, 07:14 PM
I think it's called "We're all in this together." The poor and middle class is the we.

Sooner5030
8/1/2011, 07:15 PM
you will not have to pay but the interest will accrue while you are in school. easy access to credit for school provides upward pressure on tuition. IMO

usmc-sooner
8/1/2011, 07:17 PM
poor people are like sandbags

yermom
8/1/2011, 07:19 PM
i think you are just going to start accruing interest while you are in school now

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 07:24 PM
i think you are just going to start accruing interest while you are in school now

Awesome. Feels good having the rug swept out from under you while you are trying to make it.

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 07:25 PM
they should probably get better jobs.

Isnt that why I'm school? :confused:

I thought it was to sit around and jack off all day. :rolleyes:

sooner ngintunr
8/1/2011, 07:25 PM
The poor are going to get ****ed on this deal.

When the R's get everything they want in a deal, that is usually the outcome.

cccasooner2
8/1/2011, 07:26 PM
i think you are just going to start accruing interest while you are in school now

Make minimum payments and you can expect the problem to disappear in around 500 years and you can start to enjoy yourself. :O

usmc-sooner
8/1/2011, 07:27 PM
Isnt that why I'm school? :confused:

I thought it was to sit around and jack off all day. :rolleyes:

If you were rich you could

I have never got why people get those loans on degrees that won't pay it back in the long run.

cccasooner2
8/1/2011, 07:28 PM
Isnt that why I'm school? :confused:

I thought it was to sit around and jack off all day. :rolleyes:

No, that job is reserved for Oklahoma judges.

Sooner5030
8/1/2011, 07:30 PM
When the R's get everything they want in a deal, that is usually the outcome.

the 'poor' already get a pretty good dealio! A snappy EBT card for food ($400-800/month), welfare, medicaid, EIC, access to indigent health care and public schools.

the f'ing magical unicorn cannot shiat golden skittles forever without being fed. The "rich" wage earners will continue to find ways to contribute less if they think they're getting a bad deal. Too many contribute nothing!

sooner ngintunr
8/1/2011, 07:39 PM
the 'poor' already get a pretty good dealio! A snappy EBT card for food ($400-800/month), welfare, medicaid, EIC, access to indigent health care and public schools.

the f'ing magical unicorn cannot shiat golden skittles forever without being fed. The "rich" wage earners will continue to find ways to contribute less if they think they're getting a bad deal. Too many contribute nothing!

Living in poverty is awesome!!

BU BEAR
8/1/2011, 07:44 PM
Did I mention special **** you goes out to those making over $250K?

Pay some more taxes ****ers.

:mad: (sorry just venting here)

The poor are going to get ****ed on this deal.

Why should those making over $250K continue to subsidize your loan? I am in the same boat as you. I have a six-figure education loan and the job market for my field bottomed out midway through my degree program. Currently, the job market for my profession is almost non-existent. However, I do not think it is right for me to demand that others pay for my decision to go to school. Take a deep breath, think about this for a while. Everything will be alright. You will find a way to make this work.

Sooner5030
8/1/2011, 07:44 PM
what is poverty? A number? income? wealth? ability?

If it's the ability to provide basic needs then that is already provided for you by someone else paying taxes.

mgsooner
8/1/2011, 07:44 PM
It's funny when people that are nowhere near "rich" come on the Internet and rail against the poor and "wellfaarr". But hey it's fun to pretend like you're wealthy, right?

Veritas
8/1/2011, 08:10 PM
The idea is that the money saved by the student loan cuts would help pay to keep Pell Grants, which so far are maintained at a maximum grant of $5,500 a year for some 8 million poor students.

Of the $22 billion saved, $17 billion will go to fund Pell Grants, which only leaves that program $1.3 billion short, said student aid groups. That's why most groups can live with the cuts to graduate student loans.
The rest of the savings goes to deficit reduction.
So to summarize, the money generated by these cuts will go to help fund the education of 8 million poor students.


Did I mention special **** you goes out to those making over $250K?

Pay some more taxes ****ers.

:mad: (sorry just venting here)

The poor are going to get ****ed on this deal.
No, the poor who want to be educated are going to get subsidized with the funds you're going to pay. What are you mad about here? Your funds are going to help fund education for the poor. Do you hate the poor? Why don't you want to help pay subsidize their education?

Oh, right, it shouldn't be your funds, it should be someone else's funds. It would be ok then, but hell no, they shouldn't touch your money.


:rolleyes:

Chuck Bao
8/1/2011, 08:25 PM
Well, why the hell not? Let's just dumb down America. We don't need no stinking grad students or scientists to be competitive in the international market. We are America, dammit, the land of opportunity and may God Bless America.

Collier11
8/1/2011, 08:25 PM
Thats why in tryin really hard to get yer wife a job, someone has to support yer *** :D

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 08:26 PM
So to summarize, the money generated by these cuts will go to help fund the education of 8 million poor students.


No, the poor who want to be educated are going to get subsidized with the funds you're going to pay. What are you mad about here? Your funds are going to help fund education for the poor. Do you hate the poor? Why don't you want to help pay subsidize their education?

Oh, right, it shouldn't be your funds, it should be someone else's funds. It would be ok then, but hell no, they shouldn't touch your money.


:rolleyes:

Hmmm... Lets think about this here. Glad to see you dont count me as the poor even though I am below the poverty line. Yes I want to help those poorer than I do. But jsut because I dont qualify for a PELL grant because I already have a bachelors doesnt mean I am not poor.

How much money do I have to give? 0. Is it impossible to save as a student? No and I do as much as I can.

How much money does somebody have that makes over 10x as much as I do? About 10X as much.

Its about who should be paying more. People who make more should pay more its as simple as that to me.

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 08:26 PM
Thats why in tryin really hard to get yer wife a job, someone has to support yer *** :D

No kidding! You are doing a great job! I cant thank you enough! :D

Collier11
8/1/2011, 08:28 PM
Im pushing my boss to offer her but unfortunately it isnt my decision...although, if she comes and works in my office I take no fault if she hits on me ;)

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 08:30 PM
Why should those making over $250K continue to subsidize your loan? I am in the same boat as you. I have a six-figure education loan and the job market for my field bottomed out midway through my degree program. Currently, the job market for my profession is almost non-existent. However, I do not think it is right for me to demand that others pay for my decision to go to school. Take a deep breath, think about this for a while. Everything will be alright. You will find a way to make this work.

I think of it this way: Who uses more of the public services that are provided by taxes? Me or some one making over 250K? It just makes sense they should pay more taxes for using more of the public services provided to them.

I'm just saying that if I had known this was going to happen maybe I would have rethought my career choices before entering into a 4-6 year commitment to get my PhD.

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 08:31 PM
Im pushing my boss to offer her but unfortunately it isnt my decision...although, if she comes and works in my office I take no fault if she hits on me ;)

Hahahaha! Dude that is awesome! Keep on pushing! If she hits on you its not my fault if I hit on you too ;) :hot:

Collier11
8/1/2011, 08:32 PM
I welcome it. :D The good thing is that the girl she would be directly working for already likes her, if this week goes well which im sure it will I will push a little harder. Im acting like Ive known you guys forever to try and sway her, lol

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 08:35 PM
If you were rich you could

I have never got why people get those loans on degrees that won't pay it back in the long run.

I planned and still plan on paying it back in the long run, thats why I took the loans. Them accrueing interest while I was in school wasnt part of the deal. Its just funny to see who is getting ****ed first on this deal.

So basically only the rich have a right to an education? Got it.

You know for most of the good jobs out there that an MS is becoming the new bachelors (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/education/edlife/edl-24masters-t.html?pagewanted=all)?

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 08:35 PM
I welcome it. :D The good thing is that the girl she would be directly working for already likes her, if this week goes well which im sure it will I will push a little harder. Im acting like Ive known you guys forever to try and sway her, lol

Nice. Well we have known each other for at least what 2-4 years? :D

Sooner5030
8/1/2011, 08:37 PM
So basically only the rich have a right to an education? Got it.

no, they pay for their education.....which everyone has a RIGHT to do.

GDC
8/1/2011, 08:39 PM
No, that job is reserved for Oklahoma judges.

Ex-Oklahoma judge arrested on DUI, drug complaints

By Manny Gamallo - Tulsa World
Published: July 19, 2011
SAPULPA - Donald Thompson, the former Creek County judge convicted and sent to prison five years ago for indecent exposure, was arrested in Sapulpa early Tuesday morning on a variety of complaints, including possession of controlled dangerous substances.

According to authorities, the 64-year-old Thompson was booked into the Creek County jail on complaints of driving under the influence, driving under suspension, having a defective vehicle, carrying an open container, possession of a controlled substance without a prescription and possession of dangerous controlled substances.
Thompson reportedly had Lortab and Adderall in his possession.


Read more: http://newsok.com/ex-oklahoma-judge-arrested-on-dui-drug-complaints/article/3586933#ixzz1Tpbyzwzu

BU BEAR
8/1/2011, 08:41 PM
I think of it this way: Who uses more of the public services that are provided by taxes? Me or some one making over 250K? It just makes sense they should pay more taxes for using more of the public services provided to them.


I honestly have no idea what you use. But, you are not asking higher wager earners to pay for the services they use; you are asking higher wage earners to subsidize your education loans. I assure you the higher wage earner does not use your student loan; and they do not use your education which presumably you are receiving so that you, and not the higher wage earners whom you want to subsidize your loans, can make more money in the future.

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 08:44 PM
no, they pay for their education.....which everyone has a RIGHT to do.

Yep, but if you dont have the $$$ then the chances of you earning it and then having a chance to pay for the education are pretty slim.

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 08:47 PM
I honestly have no idea what you use. But, you are not asking higher wager earners to pay for the services they use; you are asking higher wage earners to subsidize your education loans. I assure you the higher wage earner does not use your student loan; and they do not use your education which presumably you are receiving so that you, and not the higher wage earners whom you want to subsidize your loans, can make more money in the future.

Well then dont say that is the deal and then change the rules.

And they could reap the benefits of it if they end up hiring me or someone else that was able to obtain an education by suing student loans.

BU BEAR
8/1/2011, 09:03 PM
Well then dont say that is the deal and then change the rules.

You do not have a contract with the government. You are receiving a subsidy, or a handout, and the government may cease giving you that handout when it wants.


And they could reap the benefits of it if they end up hiring me or someone else that was able to obtain an education by suing student loans.

They can do this anyway by hiring someone other than you or anyone who continued their education despite having to pay a portion of the costs while in school.

soonercruiser
8/1/2011, 09:03 PM
I planned and still plan on paying it back in the long run, thats why I took the loans. Them accrueing interest while I was in school wasnt part of the deal. Its just funny to see who is getting ****ed first on this deal.

So basically only the rich have a right to an education? Got it.

You know for most of the good jobs out there that an MS is becoming the new bachelors (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/education/edlife/edl-24masters-t.html?pagewanted=all)?

Just to put things in perspective....with all the wailing & gnashing of teeth on this thread.
While in the military, and Congress needed to cut the military budget several times....
First, they pushed pay days back to the end of the month.
Then, they pushed military pay days to the first of the month (One times saving of $300Million - Wow!)
And then again, on the next round of cuts, they cut off my professional pays while I was paying back the 9 years for educational commitment! (I had already graduated from prof school and had the 9 year commitment. But, they pretended that I didn't.)
NONE OF THIS was ever in the original bargain!
The military is a sitting duck for Dem budget cuts!

That's why I always advise folks entering the military to get everything in writing that is promised by the recruiter.

So, whine on.
"Shared sacrifice" is what Obama wanted!

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 09:08 PM
Just to put things in perspective....with all the wailing & gnashing of teeth on this thread.
While in the military, and Congress neede to cut the military budget several times....
First, they pushed pay days back to the end of the month.
Then, they pushed military pay days to the first of the month (One times saving of $300Million - WoW!)
And then again, on the next round of cuts, they cut off my professional pays while I was paying back the 9 years for educational commitment! (I had already graduated from prof school and had the 9 year commitment. But, they pretended that I didn't.)
NONE OF THIS was ever in the original bargain!
The military is a sitting duck for Dem budget cuts!

That's why I always advise folks entering the military to get everything in writing that is promised by the recruiter.

So, whine on.
"Shared sacrifice" is what Obama wanted!

They wouldnt have to do that if we (and by that I mean our soldiers) werent in the middle of butt ****ing nowhere fighting goat herders with bombs that hate us even more because we are there.

Dont get me wrong here I appreciate everything the military does for us, I think the people in charge of it right now (and before now) are royal **** ups.

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 09:10 PM
You do not have a contract with the government. You are receiving a subsidy, or a handout, and the government may cease giving you that handout when it wants.

Good. Let me rub one out to that before bed.

They can do this anyway by hiring someone other than you or anyone who continued their education despite having to pay a portion of the costs while in school.[/QUOTE]

Which they would never know. If there isnt enough of them out there then no they cant.

But lets keep dumbing down the populace. Science and math are bad! Stupid and TV good! Nothing to see here move along.

BU BEAR
8/1/2011, 09:14 PM
I think you are being a little overly dramatic. This is disappointing for you, but it is not the end of the world.

Midtowner
8/1/2011, 09:28 PM
Perhaps the question shouldn't be about who should subsidize who, but why in the hell education has gotten so damn expensive. Our schools are increasing tuition at double digits every year without significant gains in educational quality.

These student loans are now equal to 7% of GDP. That's money tied up in the federal loans programs not creating jobs.

Veritas
8/1/2011, 09:31 PM
How much money do I have to give? 0.

How much money does somebody have that makes over 10x as much as I do? About 10X as much.
10x as much as 0 is still zero.

Might be time for some remedial maths.

Sooner5030
8/1/2011, 09:36 PM
fraggle, based on the amount of time you've spent on this thread tonight I'd say you have enough time to devote to a second job (or first) in order to pay that interest.

Veritas
8/1/2011, 09:36 PM
Perhaps the question shouldn't be about who should subsidize who, but why in the hell education has gotten so damn expensive. Our schools are increasing tuition at double digits every year without significant gains in educational quality.

These student loans are now equal to 7% of GDP. That's money tied up in the federal loans programs not creating jobs.
Man, it's not terribly complicated. It's the vicious circle of government subsidy.

1. Education is expensive.
2. The government, always here to help, offers subsidized low-interest loans that damn near anyone can get.
3. Educational institutions are as money-hungry as government agencies. So they raise tuition.
4. Go back to #1.

Curly Bill
8/1/2011, 09:38 PM
Some of the drama here is so thick ya can cut it with a knife. :D

Good grief.....:rolleyes:

KABOOKIE
8/1/2011, 10:08 PM
The self-entitlement of the malcontents of this country would be down right amusing if it wasn't so sad.

This is why this country will never solve the current round of budget woes. To many whiny bitches that have their hands in the cookie jar. The gov't will default someday. It's not a matter of if but when.

StoopTroup
8/1/2011, 10:11 PM
10x as much as 0 is still zero.

Might be time for some remedial maths.

LOL :pop:

sooner59
8/1/2011, 10:13 PM
The self-entitlement of the malcontents of this country would be down right amusing if it wasn't so sad.

This is way this country will never solve the current round of budget woes. To many whiny bitches that have their hands in the cookie jar. The gov't will default someday. It's not a matter of if but when.

The bolded part is something I unfortunately agree with you on.

Curly Bill
8/1/2011, 10:18 PM
Once you start passing the cookies out, and the peeps get used to them, come to expect and demand them actually, it's a beyotch to shut that off. With our politicians being mostly concerned with pleasing the most people so as to be reelected they're sure not gonna do it. So yeah, we're hosed.

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 10:20 PM
10x as much as 0 is still zero.

Might be time for some remedial maths.

:mad:

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 10:24 PM
fraggle, based on the amount of time you've spent on this thread tonight I'd say you have enough time to devote to a second job (or first) in order to pay that interest.

I'd say you dont know wtf you are talking about and need to shut up until you even have any sort of a clue about what goes into getting a PhD.

It is also a job. I technically work 40hrs/week for OU. It is frowned upon and possibly against either the student code or law I cant remember which to get a 2nd job. Not that I would have any time for it.

I'm still at the office. Are you still at the office? Am I not allowed to take a break?

BU BEAR
8/1/2011, 10:26 PM
Am I not allowed to take a break?

As many as you want.

Veritas
8/1/2011, 10:32 PM
I'd say you dont know wtf you are talking about and need to shut up until you even have any sort of a clue about what goes into getting a PhD.

It is also a job. I technically work 40hrs/week for OU. It is frowned upon (and possibly against either the student code or law I cant remember which to get a 2nd job. Not that I would have any time for it.
Now there's the reality and the true stupidity of this deal (and I do think it's a dumb move, Fraggle, I just think the logic behind your reaction is a non-sequitor). Grad school is all-consuming if you're going full time. There's hardly enough time to make enough money to buy Ramen.

kbsooner21
8/1/2011, 10:33 PM
As many as you want.

God Bless America :D

Fraggle145
8/1/2011, 10:56 PM
Now there's the reality and the true stupidity of this deal (and I do think it's a dumb move, Fraggle, I just think the logic behind your reaction is a non-sequitor). Grad school is all-consuming if you're going full time. There's hardly enough time to make enough money to buy Ramen.

If it isnt you arent going to get your degree. I know my logic is FAIL right now. I'm just incredibly frustrated with everything else so this whole thing was an easy thing to blow off some steam at. I am under an insane amount of pressure both my own and otherwise to finish my PhD, and I have a conference this week that I am preparing for that is a 5 day meeting that should be super important to me actually getting my next job if I dont **** it up. Not to mention that my wife lost her job about a month ago (Thankfully Collier is trying to get her hooked up). My head feels like its about to explode.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CT4y-UiwdC0/SvlmqWjdGkI/AAAAAAAABvM/JdYGOKsMqAY/s320/gil-head-explode-again.gif

87sooner
8/1/2011, 11:01 PM
If it isnt you arent going to get your degree. I know my logic is FAIL right now. I'm just incredibly frustrated with everything else so this whole thing was an easy thing to blow off some steam at. I am under an insane amount of pressure both my own and otherwise to finish my PhD, and I have a conference this week that I am preparing for that is a 5 day meeting that should be super important to me actually getting my next job if I dont **** it up. Not to mention that my wife lost her job about a month ago (Thankfully Collier is trying to get her hooked up). My head feels like its about to explode.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CT4y-UiwdC0/SvlmqWjdGkI/AAAAAAAABvM/JdYGOKsMqAY/s320/gil-head-explode-again.gif

sounds like you need to start a prayer request thread....

BU BEAR
8/1/2011, 11:02 PM
You are going to get through this.

Midtowner
8/1/2011, 11:23 PM
Man, it's not terribly complicated. It's the vicious circle of government subsidy.

1. Education is expensive.
2. The government, always here to help, offers subsidized low-interest loans that damn near anyone can get.
3. Educational institutions are as money-hungry as government agencies. So they raise tuition.
4. Go back to #1.

You have to wonder how things would be different if the government had never gotten into guaranteeing student loans.

--they'd be different for sure.

cantwait48
8/2/2011, 12:06 AM
"People who make more should pay more its as simple as that to me."
"It just makes sense they should pay more taxes for using more of the public services provided to them."

people who make more do pay more taxes and I am not sure 'they' are using more public services if you consider subsidized housing, food stamps, etc. Anyway to me the whole answer to all this crap is legalize drugs and introduce a flat tax which is high enough to increase revenue and take away all the stupid tax loopholes. Be more proactive in getting our own poor people who don't show enough interest in going to college or doing something for themselves to take the jobs the illegals are sneaking across a desert to take, make people accountable for themselves and make people want to do something for themselves. Add these things to getting factory/production jobs back in the US and this country would get back on the right track pretty quick. The reasons why none of these things will happen is because of our entire political system as a whole, not just repubs or dems.

GKeeper316
8/2/2011, 12:26 AM
well hell lets just go back to when only the rich could afford college.

we'll make it just like health care.

GKeeper316
8/2/2011, 12:27 AM
"People who make more should pay more its as simple as that to me."
"It just makes sense they should pay more taxes for using more of the public services provided to them."

people who make more do pay more taxes and I am not sure 'they' are using more public services if you consider subsidized housing, food stamps, etc. Anyway to me the whole answer to all this crap is legalize drugs and introduce a flat tax which is high enough to increase revenue and take away all the stupid tax loopholes. Be more proactive in getting our own poor people who don't show enough interest in going to college or doing something for themselves to take the jobs the illegals are sneaking across a desert to take, make people accountable for themselves and make people want to do something for themselves. Add these things to getting factory/production jobs back in the US and this country would get back on the right track pretty quick. The reasons why none of these things will happen is because of our entire political system as a whole, not just repubs or dems.

wrong.

olevetonahill
8/2/2011, 12:57 AM
What im hearin is Fraggle aint so much pissed about the actual changes as he is the Timing of em.
Kinda like they changed his horse for him while he is in the Middle of the stream.

He said had these changes been in place BEFORE he started he May not have went this path.

AnyWay Fraggle Blow off some steam ya dayumed LibTard. Oh and Good luck ;)

47straight
8/2/2011, 10:16 AM
I think of it this way: Who uses more of the public services that are provided by taxes? Me or some one making over 250K? It just makes sense they should pay more taxes for using more of the public services provided to them.


Um, you're at grad student at a public university. Everyone you work for/study under is a public employee. Your department secretary is a public employee. The lights, the markerboards, the specimens, etc. Anything not provided by an industry grant.

So the answer indeed is that you probably use more of public services that are provided by taxes.

Sheesh.

47straight
8/2/2011, 10:20 AM
10x as much as 0 is still zero.

Might be time for some remedial maths.

He's a biologist. He has no need for the maths. Too close to actual science.

Caboose
8/2/2011, 10:20 AM
Living in poverty is awesome!!

Try living in "poverty" somewhere outside of the US. Most of the "poor" in America have as high of a standard of living than the average European. Go see what poverty looks like in places like Honduras, India, Brazil, and most of Africa... then come home and cry me a river about the plight of the poor in the US.

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 10:25 AM
punish the rich people, that'll solve all our problems!!!!!!!!!

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 10:34 AM
no, they pay for their education.....which everyone has a RIGHT to do.

Sorry, but this is just absolute BS. Everyone should have the RIGHT to get an education. You don't think he's paying for it? He's paying for it with loans, which the government just pulled part of the agreement out from under him.

I'm making over six figures and I live like I'm making half that because of the cost of my education. My parents were teachers and could not afford to send me to college, so I had to have student loans. There's something wrong with the entire picture.

But, let's punish the middle class because Exxon doesn't want to pay taxes. Makes perfect sense to me.

Sooner24
8/2/2011, 10:34 AM
Try living in "poverty" somewhere outside of the US. Most of the "poor" in America have as high of a standard of living than the average European. Go see what poverty looks like in places like Honduras, India, Brazil, and most of Africa... then come home and cry me a river about the plight of the poor in the US.

Not to mention all the free time they have. :pop:

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 10:37 AM
Sorry, but this is just absolute BS. Everyone should have the RIGHT to get an education. You don't think he's paying for it? He's paying for it with loans, which the government just pulled part of the agreement out from under him.

I'm making over six figures and I live like I'm making half that because of the cost of my education. My parents were teachers and could not afford to send me to college, so I had to have student loans. There's something wrong with the entire picture.

But, let's punish the middle class because Exxon doesn't want to pay taxes. Makes perfect sense to me.


do you have any idea how many millions of dollars Exxon pays in taxes?

pphilfran
8/2/2011, 10:39 AM
Sorry, but this is just absolute BS. Everyone should have the RIGHT to get an education. You don't think he's paying for it? He's paying for it with loans, which the government just pulled part of the agreement out from under him.

I'm making over six figures and I live like I'm making half that because of the cost of my education. My parents were teachers and could not afford to send me to college, so I had to have student loans. There's something wrong with the entire picture.

But, let's punish the middle class because Exxon doesn't want to pay taxes. Makes perfect sense to me.

Where did you go to school? Six figure loan? Were there cheaper alternatives?

soonercruiser
8/2/2011, 10:41 AM
The self-entitlement of the malcontents of this country would be down right amusing if it wasn't so sad.

This is why this country will never solve the current round of budget woes. To many whiny bitches that have their hands in the cookie jar. The gov't will default someday. It's not a matter of if but when.

Somebody is listening to Mark Levin!
:D

soonercruiser
8/2/2011, 10:43 AM
I'd say you dont know wtf you are talking about and need to shut up until you even have any sort of a clue about what goes into getting a PhD.

It is also a job. I technically work 40hrs/week for OU. It is frowned upon and possibly against either the student code or law I cant remember which to get a 2nd job. Not that I would have any time for it.

I'm still at the office. Are you still at the office? Am I not allowed to take a break?

But, still....
Aren't you expected to be doing some research in your spare time?
:rolleyes:

GDC
8/2/2011, 10:44 AM
do you have any idea how many millions of dollars Exxon pays in taxes?

Apparently, how much they pay (if any) depends on who you ask.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/how-much-do-oil-companies-really-pay-in-taxes/2011/05/11/AF7UNutG_story.html

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 10:45 AM
do you have any idea how many millions of dollars Exxon pays in taxes?

I'm not here to argue that, though I could, but I AM here to argue that it's complete bull that they are messing with student loans when there are a TON of other areas that they could cut fat. The "subsidizing" of student loans allows the poor and the middle class to get an education in the absolutely inflated education market, then keeps those same students from prospering for years after school.

In the long run, I'm not sure my degree was worth it. I can't imagine what it would have been like with four extra years of interest on top of those loans.

It's a horrible decision that was plugged in to appease some politician and get his or her vote. I'm so absolutely sick of our government at this point. I can't believe there's not a way to get the entire thing blown up. I'm not in agreement with most of what the Tea Party stands for, but they have the right idea in principle. Unfortunately, they let the Republicans carry the flag and its gotten watered down.

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 10:46 AM
i doubt that student loans are the only place they're cutting fat

soonercruiser
8/2/2011, 10:48 AM
If it isnt you arent going to get your degree. I know my logic is FAIL right now. I'm just incredibly frustrated with everything else so this whole thing was an easy thing to blow off some steam at. I am under an insane amount of pressure both my own and otherwise to finish my PhD, and I have a conference this week that I am preparing for that is a 5 day meeting that should be super important to me actually getting my next job if I dont **** it up. Not to mention that my wife lost her job about a month ago (Thankfully Collier is trying to get her hooked up). My head feels like its about to explode.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_CT4y-UiwdC0/SvlmqWjdGkI/AAAAAAAABvM/JdYGOKsMqAY/s320/gil-head-explode-again.gif

OK! OK!
No we understand, and feel your pain.
I agree with 87sooner.
You got a quick prayer from me too!
Hang in there! Many before you have gone thorugh the same....
;)

GDC
8/2/2011, 10:48 AM
Most civilized countries actually see to it that anyone who wants to get an education can, and without incurring crippling personal debt.

pphilfran
8/2/2011, 10:50 AM
do you have any idea how many millions of dollars Exxon pays in taxes?

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=XOM+Income+Statement&annual

In 2010 they paid out 21.5 billion in worldwide taxes on 53.2 EBIT...15.2 in 2009 on 35.3 EBIT...

High overseas production caused tax bites in foreign countries to be large...

Want more US taxes paid? Expand US drilling...

The following was based on 2009 taxes...

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/news/1004/gallery.top_5_tax_bills/2.html

Exxon paid the most taxes last year of any U.S. company, by far -- but not a cent went to the IRS for income taxes. That's because the oil giant does business in some of the mostly highly taxed countries in the world. Want to extract petroleum in Nigeria? Be prepared to fork over up to 85% of your profit in tax payments.

Exxon doled out more than $15 billion in income tax payments to foreign countries last year. U.S. tax codes allow companies to take massive deductions in light of those international charges, which knocked Exxon's federal income-tax bill down into negative territory.

That said, Uncle Sam gets his money in other ways. Including sales taxes and duties, Exxon recorded $7.7 billion in U.S. tax costs last year, and paid even more overseas.

Its grand total in global taxes for the year? A whopping $78.6 billion. The company's effective income tax rate was a hefty 47%, its highest in three years.

pphilfran
8/2/2011, 10:51 AM
Most civilized countries actually see to it that anyone who wants to get an education can, and without incurring crippling personal debt.

A lot of places push Vo Tech type training much more then the US....

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 10:52 AM
Where did you go to school? Six figure loan? Were there cheaper alternatives?

I didn't have a six figure loan. It was about half that. Of course there were cheaper alternatives, but I wanted to be a meteorologist and I went to OU because of that, which was out of state.

Then, my wife went to Indiana University for her master's degree. Between the two of us, we could have a REALLY nice car or a really crappy house with the payments we make on student loans every month. Had we not had education deferments, then we wouldn't have made it early on. We would have been bankrupt, no way around it.

Also, if we're talking about looking for "cheaper" alternatives than a public institution, then we have issues. The cost of education is absolutely ridiculous and it's the government's fault, yet now they want to complain about having to subsidize the education? Sorry, but this is just another step forward in the class system in the U.S.

Sooner24
8/2/2011, 10:54 AM
I'm not here to argue that, though I could, but I AM here to argue that it's complete bull that they are messing with student loans when there are a TON of other areas that they could cut fat. The "subsidizing" of student loans allows the poor and the middle class to get an education in the absolutely inflated education market, then keeps those same students from prospering for years after school.

In the long run, I'm not sure my degree was worth it. I can't imagine what it would have been like with four extra years of interest on top of those loans.

It's a horrible decision that was plugged in to appease some politician and get his or her vote. I'm so absolutely sick of our government at this point. I can't believe there's not a way to get the entire thing blown up. I'm not in agreement with most of what the Tea Party stands for, but they have the right idea in principle. Unfortunately, they let the Republicans carry the flag and its gotten watered down.

In Oklahoma the "poor" can get a free college education. I not only paid my kids way through college I also get to pay other peoples kids way through too.

http://www.okhighered.org/okpromise/about.shtml

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 10:55 AM
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=XOM+Income+Statement&annual

In 2010 they paid out 21.5 billion in worldwide taxes on 53.2 EBIT...15.2 in 2009 on 35.3 EBIT...

High overseas production caused tax bites in foreign countries to be large...

Want more US taxes paid? Expand US drilling...

The following was based on 2009 taxes...

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/news/1004/gallery.top_5_tax_bills/2.html

Exxon paid the most taxes last year of any U.S. company, by far -- but not a cent went to the IRS for income taxes. That's because the oil giant does business in some of the mostly highly taxed countries in the world. Want to extract petroleum in Nigeria? Be prepared to fork over up to 85% of your profit in tax payments.

Exxon doled out more than $15 billion in income tax payments to foreign countries last year. U.S. tax codes allow companies to take massive deductions in light of those international charges, which knocked Exxon's federal income-tax bill down into negative territory.

That said, Uncle Sam gets his money in other ways. Including sales taxes and duties, Exxon recorded $7.7 billion in U.S. tax costs last year, and paid even more overseas.

Its grand total in global taxes for the year? A whopping $78.6 billion. The company's effective income tax rate was a hefty 47%, its highest in three years.

I'm sorry, but cry me a freaking river, Exxon. That's the cost of doing business overseas. That's a cost of business. So, we're supposed to feel sorry for them about that? Yet, as a U.S. business, they contribute NOTHING to our bottom line?

Paying taxes to other countries means nothing to me. Our tax codes suck.

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 10:57 AM
nothing to our bottom line? i could be wrong, but i believe that while you may have an argument on the income tax - those other taxes they pay - what would you call that a contribution too? the personal slush fund of Dick Cheney?

that money goes somewhere to something - and if it didnt, we'd make up that shortfall somehow

OUMallen
8/2/2011, 10:57 AM
Great. We're cutting graduate programs, in essence, to make sure we don't lose undergrads.

Newsflash: graduate students actually add to the body of knowledge of humanity. College grads do not. Are we suffering a severe shortage of college grads I didn't know about?

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 10:59 AM
i have never understood the hatred for big oil or big corporations that make a ton of money

i just dont get that mentality - maybe its the "small man vs. goliath" deal - but i know lots of people that put food on their tables and roofs over their head because of the jobs they have from those corporations

pphilfran
8/2/2011, 11:01 AM
I didn't have a six figure loan. It was about half that. Of course there were cheaper alternatives, but I wanted to be a meteorologist and I went to OU because of that, which was out of state.

Then, my wife went to Indiana University for her master's degree. Between the two of us, we could have a REALLY nice car or a really crappy house with the payments we make on student loans every month. Had we not had education deferments, then we wouldn't have made it early on. We would have been bankrupt, no way around it.

Also, if we're talking about looking for "cheaper" alternatives than a public institution, then we have issues. The cost of education is absolutely ridiculous and it's the government's fault, yet now they want to complain about having to subsidize the education? Sorry, but this is just another step forward in the class system in the U.S.

By cheaper alternatives I was referring to other schools that are closer to home...

Did you go to OU for 4 years? Could you have gone in state for a year or two and than transfer to OU for the final couple of years?

We send far too many people to college...cheap loans...lenient payment schedules...it all adds to the cost over the long term...

Vo Tech training should be expanded...somewhere around the 9th grade there should be a choice...more traditional schooling and college down the line or trades school...

Sooner24
8/2/2011, 11:03 AM
i have never understood the hatred for big oil or big corporations that make a ton of money

i just dont get that mentality - maybe its the "small man vs. goliath" deal - but i know lots of people that put food on their tables and roofs over their head because of the jobs they have from those corporations

I have never understood why people that have millions of dollars should pay a higher percentage of taxes than I do.

pphilfran
8/2/2011, 11:03 AM
I'm sorry, but cry me a freaking river, Exxon. That's the cost of doing business overseas. That's a cost of business. So, we're supposed to feel sorry for them about that? Yet, as a U.S. business, they contribute NOTHING to our bottom line?

Paying taxes to other countries means nothing to me. Our tax codes suck.

We limit their US exploration and push them go overseas to produce...then when they do so we want to bitch about how many taxes they pay overseas...

Makes sense...

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 11:04 AM
i have never understood the hatred for big oil or big corporations that make a ton of money

i just dont get that mentality - maybe its the "small man vs. goliath" deal - but i know lots of people that put food on their tables and roofs over their head because of the jobs they have from those corporations

Hatred? Nah. Hatred for people playing the system and getting filthy rich while the rest of us get squeezed year after year. Yeah. That bothers me quite a bit.

It really bothers me that a six-figure income doesn't get me "ahead" of the game. It should. But when you figure in costs of my kids' education, taxes, student loans, skyrocketing gas and energy costs, inflation, etc., I don't feel like I'm any better off than my parents were 20 years ago making half what I do today.

BU BEAR
8/2/2011, 11:05 AM
Most civilized countries actually see to it that anyone who wants to get an education can, and without incurring crippling personal debt.

To heck with that accusation. The good ol' US of A sees to it that even people who barely graduate high school go to college. This is why many colleges have remedial programs for some "marginal" entering freshmen and transfer students.

And of course, through college athletics, we see that tons of academically under-qualified individuals are brought in to the university setting.

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 11:05 AM
hatred is unhealthy

rich people dont bother me - never have, i dont feel threatened or offended by them

Sooner24
8/2/2011, 11:06 AM
Hatred? Nah. Hatred for people playing the system and getting filthy rich while the rest of us get squeezed year after year. Yeah. That bothers me quite a bit.

It really bothers me that a six-figure income doesn't get me "ahead" of the game. It should. But when you figure in costs of my kids' education, taxes, student loans, skyrocketing gas and energy costs, inflation, etc., I don't feel like I'm any better off than my parents were 20 years ago making half what I do today.

If you have a six-figure income and you're bellyaching than you are living above your means.

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 11:06 AM
We limit their US exploration and push them go overseas to produce...then when they do so we want to bitch about how many taxes they pay overseas...

Makes sense...

Nah, you've got it all wrong. I don't care one bit about how much they pay in taxes overseas. That's a cost of their doing business overseas. We can't control that. What we CAN control is how much they contribute to our bottom line, and it's complete BS that they only contribute 5% of their income to U.S. taxes. It's a loophole that is KILLING our country because EVERY major corporation is taking advantage of it.

pphilfran
8/2/2011, 11:06 AM
Hatred? Nah. Hatred for people playing the system and getting filthy rich while the rest of us get squeezed year after year. Yeah. That bothers me quite a bit.

It really bothers me that a six-figure income doesn't get me "ahead" of the game. It should. But when you figure in costs of my kids' education, taxes, student loans, skyrocketing gas and energy costs, inflation, etc., I don't feel like I'm any better off than my parents were 20 years ago making half what I do today.

After inflation...100k today is close to 50k 20 years ago...

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 11:07 AM
If you have a six-figure income and you're bellyaching than you are living above your means.

LOL. I could show you my balance sheet. I'm fine. I should be better, though. That's the bottom line.

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 11:08 AM
After inflation...100k today is close to 50k 20 years ago...

Yeah, I know. And that sucks, too. Inflation happens, yet wages don't increase. 20 years ago, I would have made the same amount, if not more, for what I do.

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 11:11 AM
I'm fine. I should be better, though. That's the bottom line.

sorta sounds like the greed you're complaining about with the oil corps ;)

pphilfran
8/2/2011, 11:11 AM
Yeah, I know. And that sucks, too. Inflation happens, yet wages don't increase. 20 years ago, I would have made the same amount, if not more, for what I do.

Why is that?

SanJoaquinSooner
8/2/2011, 11:13 AM
The increases in tuition - where is the money going?

1. For public institutions, the taxpayers may be subsidizing a smaller percentage of the cost than previously - made up by an increase in tuition.

2. There has been a proliferation of administration positions. There used to be a president, a provost (executive VP), a few other VPs, deans, a few associate/assistant deans, a bursar, registrar, director of physical plant and a few others.

Now there are associate provosts, assistant provosts, directors or this and that, associate directors, assistant directors of everything imaginable - for recruiting, community involvement, student well-being, assessment, institutional research, fund raising, diversity, international programs, curriculum, professional development, collaborative programs, continuing education, etc. It just keeps growing and growing.

3. Upgrades in student quality of life. Plain-jane dorms don't cut it when colleges compete for good students. they need apartment-like residence halls, more on-campus activities, etc. The competition for good students requires capital improvements.

4. Competition for top research faculty. If they want faculty who will attract research grants, acquire patents, bring prestige, then they gotta pay.

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 11:13 AM
sorta sounds like the greed you're complaining about with the oil corps ;)

Whatever. I've, without meaning to, hijacked this thread. Bottom line is that they should not be messing with college loans when the price of an education is so high. At what point (maybe now?) is college no longer worth it? The problem is, though, that 4.5 % of college students are unemployed while 10% of the rest of the country is.

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 11:14 AM
Why is that?

Because companies have figured out that they can squeeze us and help their bottom line. It is what it is.

Sooner5030
8/2/2011, 11:15 AM
if the price of tuition is too high then make a different decision. Not everyone (OP) has a right to interest free (someone else pays) loans to get a PHD.

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 11:18 AM
if the price of tuition is too high then make a different decision. Not everyone (OP) has a right to interest free (someone else pays) loans to get a PHD.

They're not interest free. Not whatsoever. The student is allowed to defer the interest until the education is complete. I'm not sure why this is considered to be a "hand out".

As has been stated before, most affluent countries make it VERY easy for people who are college ready to get an education. We, instead, weigh our college grads (who aren't from affluent families) down with huge debt.

Sooner5030
8/2/2011, 11:23 AM
money is not free.......the interest accrual for the student is deferred but either the government is subsidizing that interest during that period or the GSE is taking a loss/charge.

pphilfran
8/2/2011, 11:24 AM
Because companies have figured out that they can squeeze us and help their bottom line. It is what it is.

Evidently it is not too bad or you would be looking for a new line of work....

My old man was pretty blunt with me...told me if I thought I was underpaid or I couldn't give 100% each and every day I should look in other places...

You have to make yourself more important than the other guy...if you can't find a way to stand out you can be assured of always being in the middle of the payroll pack...

I tried to get involved in nearly any project that came up...at the end of my career I was the go to guy on dozens of programs and projects....

I have reinvented myself many times over the years...retail...manufacturing (production, quality, training, process and design, troubleshooting)...and now wholesale...

I had no formal training in any of those areas...I was just always looking for new opportunities and then did my best to make the most of each of them...

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 11:24 AM
money is not free.......the interest accrual for the student is deferred but either the government is subsidizing that interest during that period or the GSE is taking a loss/charge.

Sorry, but my point is still the same. Why this is being thrown in the "hand out" category is beyond me. If we don't want educated people in our country, we should continue down this road.

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 11:27 AM
Sorry, but my point is still the same. Why this is being thrown in the "hand out" category is beyond me. If we don't want educated people in our country, we should continue down this road.

if its important enough to you - you'll do whatever it takes

i put 21 years in with Uncle Sam in order to get my "student loans" - got a masters degree

if you want a PhD bad enough - you'll make the sacrifices necessary to get it - or find another line of employment

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 11:28 AM
Evidently it is not too bad or you would be looking for a new line of work....

My old man was pretty blunt with me...told me if I thought I was underpaid or I couldn't give 100% each and every day I should look in other places...

You have to make yourself more important than the other guy...if you can't find a way to stand out you can be assured of always being in the middle of the payroll pack...

I tried to get involved in nearly any project that came up...at the end of my career I was the go to guy on dozens of programs and projects....

I have reinvented myself many times over the years...retail...manufacturing (production, quality, training, process and design, troubleshooting)...and now wholesale...

I had no formal training in any of those areas...I was just always looking for new opportunities and then did my best to make the most of each of them...

I've stated before that I'm doing fine. I'm truly not complaining about how much I make, just that the money I make SHOULD get me further. Our economy sucks. I know you agree with that. Costs have gone WAY up while wages really haven't in the past ten to twenty years. That's a problem. It's not a time to be pulling funding for people to get educated, because now it's probably not worth the college investment for a lot of people, even without pulling the funding.

There HAVE to be many other places you can cut fat. And I'm not happy that taxes weren't raised in this deal. Not one bit. The Tea Party won here, and that's scary as hell to me. We're going to be a VERY boring country if the Tea Party gets its way.

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 11:31 AM
if its important enough to you - you'll do whatever it takes

i put 21 years in with Uncle Sam in order to get my "student loans" - got a masters degree

if you want a PhD bad enough - you'll make the sacrifices necessary to get it - or find another line of employment

So, you got a grant for military service? A hand out. Got it.

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 11:32 AM
So, you got a grant for military service? A hand out. Got it.

sure if you want to call VA benefits a handout

some would argue that i "paid for them".....if you have a problem with it, then so be it

serving the country is not for everybody!

sooner59
8/2/2011, 11:33 AM
They're not interest free. Not whatsoever. The student is allowed to defer the interest until the education is complete. I'm not sure why this is considered to be a "hand out".

As has been stated before, most affluent countries make it VERY easy for people who are college ready to get an education. We, instead, weigh our college grads (who aren't from affluent families) down with huge debt.

This is true. They are only interest-free until you finish school. Then they begin accruing interest. This is only the subsidized. I have have to take out my share of "unsubsidized" as well. That was accruing interest the whole time I was in school.

I agree, school is way too damn expensive. I had didn't pay a dime for my freshmen year at OU. It was all payed by Pell Grant and Scholarships. After that I had two different scholarships that lasted throughout the rest of my undergrad (used up my little scholarships from high school), and on top of that had OHLAP that would pay for my tuition (not fees, though). And since I was an Oklahoma resident, my tuition wasn't as bad as OOS anyway.

Given all of that, I still had to take out loans in undergrad and accumulated nearly $30K, because my parents couldn't afford to pay at all for my schooling. I was shouldering all the debt and they were still having the electricity cut off from time to time from not being able to pay bills (both are medically retired and most of the money goes to medical bills, etc.).

For my masters, I had to go completely on loans, because that is all you can get. So I had a TON of help through school, and I still owe nearly $90K. Not fun. Would be a little better if I could find a job, though. My repayment schedule starts in a few months. Probably gonna be over $1K per month unless I can work out some deal with them.

BU BEAR
8/2/2011, 11:33 AM
Sorry, but my point is still the same. Why this is being thrown in the "hand out" category is beyond me. If we don't want educated people in our country, we should continue down this road.

The government pays for a portion of your deferred interest while you are in school. This is for those who qualify for a federally subsidized student loan. This subsidy of interest is rightly characterized as a hand out. I should know because I had a few federally subsidized loans during the last installment of my education. Having to forgo the subsidy of a portion of accrued interest would not have altered my decision. I was bound and determined to make the mistake of going to law school---the better advice of well meaning friends who had already gone through law school went unheeded.

soonercruiser
8/2/2011, 11:41 AM
If you have a six-figure income and you're bellyaching than you are living above your means.

:D
THIS!
Not just me thinking it....

soonercruiser
8/2/2011, 11:43 AM
After inflation...100k today is close to 50k 20 years ago...

And will be worth how much in 10 years when our national credit rating goes belly-up??
That, should be the broader discussion.

Sooner24
8/2/2011, 11:44 AM
I've stated before that I'm doing fine. I'm truly not complaining about how much I make, just that the money I make SHOULD get me further. Our economy sucks. I know you agree with that. Costs have gone WAY up while wages really haven't in the past ten to twenty years. That's a problem. It's not a time to be pulling funding for people to get educated, because now it's probably not worth the college investment for a lot of people, even without pulling the funding.

There HAVE to be many other places you can cut fat. And I'm not happy that taxes weren't raised in this deal. Not one bit. The Tea Party won here, and that's scary as hell to me. We're going to be a VERY boring country if the Tea Party gets its way.

If you're making six-figures I'm making far less than you but still was able to put my son through OU without owing a dime when he walked across the stage and picked up that sheep skin. I take one to two OU away football trips every year on top of buying 4 season tickets. Take vacations to Hawaii, Las Vegas and other places and still save money.

Maybe you need to call Suzy Orman. ;)

pphilfran
8/2/2011, 11:44 AM
I've stated before that I'm doing fine. I'm truly not complaining about how much I make, just that the money I make SHOULD get me further. Our economy sucks. I know you agree with that. Costs have gone WAY up while wages really haven't in the past ten to twenty years. That's a problem. It's not a time to be pulling funding for people to get educated, because now it's probably not worth the college investment for a lot of people, even without pulling the funding.

There HAVE to be many other places you can cut fat. And I'm not happy that taxes weren't raised in this deal. Not one bit. The Tea Party won here, and that's scary as hell to me. We're going to be a VERY boring country if the Tea Party gets its way.

I am not a Tea Party supporter but they did a service to all of us...they are sending a message to the good old boy network...

The only reason we looked as stupid as we did was due to the incompetence of our leadership for decades...they wanted to go about things as usual but the Tea Party stirred the pot...

We can't afford to have a tax increase for the next couple of years, the economy is too fragile...we need to scrap our current tax structure and start from scratch...

I imagine the bill that will be signed today will not help the economy...

soonercruiser
8/2/2011, 11:50 AM
So, you got a grant for military service? A hand out. Got it.

SEE! This IS the liberal mantra!
Bennies for miltary service is a "Hand UP"; not a "hand out" to those who haven't contributed.

As a military member over 13 years ago - in those years never coming close to civilian compensation levels (never $100K) - the military member was even paying taxes.
WE HAVE PULLED THE WAGON - not ridden in it like students on govment loans!

But, I still won't take my prayer back. Get a grip!

Ike
8/2/2011, 11:52 AM
Fraggle, I feel your pain. Get that dissertation written up quick and GTFO!

Also, if you want a suggestion on making more money for not so much work, line up a few big money "investors" and try to find reasons to get up to Massachusetts during certain weeks of the year.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/07/31/a_lottery_game_with_a_windfall_for_a_knowing_few/?page=full

you can thank me later.

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 12:11 PM
But, still....
Aren't you expected to be doing some research in your spare time?
:rolleyes:

What the **** do you think I am doing every ****ing day!? Spare time? what is that? vacation? what is that?

Edit: Just saw your other post. Thanks for that.

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 12:22 PM
if the price of tuition is too high then make a different decision. Not everyone (OP) has a right to interest free (someone else pays) loans to get a PHD.

Well when the facts change on you it could have changed the decision you made. Kind of hard to make a right/informed decision when you dont have all of the facts.

olevetonahill
8/2/2011, 12:24 PM
What the **** do you think I am doing every ****ing day!?

I figure yer just Fishin, Drankin and ****in off in general :D

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 12:28 PM
Fraggle, I feel your pain. Get that dissertation written up quick and GTFO!

Also, if you want a suggestion on making more money for not so much work, line up a few big money "investors" and try to find reasons to get up to Massachusetts during certain weeks of the year.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2011/07/31/a_lottery_game_with_a_windfall_for_a_knowing_few/?page=full

you can thank me later.

See now there is an idea! Of course it would take someone who has been through it to understand! :D

I'm trying on the dissertation. Shooting for May. But my advisor wont let any of my chapters through. I was in the process of finally submitting my first and he had me stop and reanalyze everything. It is getting ridiculous.

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 12:29 PM
I figure yer just Fishin, Drankin and ****in off in general :D

Man I wish!

Ike
8/2/2011, 12:37 PM
See now there is an idea! Of course it would take someone who has been through it to understand! :D

I'm trying on the dissertation. Shooting for May. But my advisor wont let any of my chapters through. I was in the process of finally submitting my first and he had me stop and reanalyze everything. It is getting ridiculous.

Still, get your 'boilerplate' chapters written. You know, the theory chapter to describe the why, the equipment chapter to describe the what, etc, etc. I did that in the evenings while analyzing my data, so that basically all I had to do when the analysis was finished was throw in the final numbers and a few pretty pictures of the data and I was good to go. It may be a little different for you as I could see situations where "reanalyze everything" includes using completely different equipment or what not, but there should still be a good amount you can write in the meantime.

3rdgensooner
8/2/2011, 12:40 PM
See now there is an idea! Of course it would take someone who has been through it to understand! :D

I'm trying on the dissertation. Shooting for May. But my advisor wont let any of my chapters through. I was in the process of finally submitting my first and he had me stop and reanalyze everything. It is getting ridiculous.I can relate to this...persevere man, trudge trudge grind grind.

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 12:43 PM
Still, get your 'boilerplate' chapters written. You know, the theory chapter to describe the why, the equipment chapter to describe the what, etc, etc. I did that in the evenings while analyzing my data, so that basically all I had to do when the analysis was finished was throw in the final numbers and a few pretty pictures of the data and I was good to go. It may be a little different for you as I could see situations where "reanalyze everything" includes using completely different equipment or what not, but there should still be a good amount you can write in the meantime.

It was just reanalyze the data using new confidence intervals and new cutoffs and make new figures. So each one of my chapters is a separate project. My committee (and me too) wants them all written up as a separate paper for publication. But yeah I have tons of stuff and am writing all the time. Every time I am watching TV I pull out my computer and just start writing... Its a process. *sigh* :)

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 12:45 PM
what do you plan to do with yourself once you finish your PhD?

BU BEAR
8/2/2011, 12:48 PM
What is the dissertation about? Please be as general or specific as your personal comfort allows.

soonercruiser
8/2/2011, 12:52 PM
I would think that some research based on a SO survey would be...
A bad idea!
:D

OhU1
8/2/2011, 12:58 PM
I did a legal paper for publication on the right of Hare Krishnas (and others) to pester you at the airport. That one made it. My other on a Nebraska bus driver's porn entrapment did not. Academic writing is so "fun"!

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 12:59 PM
what do you plan to do with yourself once you finish your PhD?

Get a postdoc somewhere, before eventually being a professor (or a researcher if I can find it).

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 01:02 PM
shakes head......i'd prefer to see our professors enter the work force and spend sometime there (in the real world) before shelving themselves in academia for the rest of their lives

Ike
8/2/2011, 01:04 PM
shakes head......i'd prefer to see our professors enter the work force and spend sometime there (in the real world) before shelving themselves in academia for the rest of their lives

I would say that depends on what you are doing. If you are wanting to be an economist, I'd completely agree with you. If you are wanting to work on particle accelerators, leaving for the private sector only results in a degradation of your skills.

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 01:05 PM
What is the dissertation about? Please be as general or specific as your personal comfort allows.

Its about community ecology in the broadest sense. I investigate the potential for a microbe (golden algae) to be an invasive species. Ch 1, is about a genetic method that I modified so that we can count golden algae from environmental samples, Ch 2 was taking that method to sites all across the red and canadian rivers to see if we can predict where we would find golden algae based on environmental parameters. Ch 3 was an experiment to determine if dilution by spring rains causes a termination of blooms. Ch 4 is to how much golden algae is necessary to enter into the community before it can establish.

Of course the are all couched within ecological theory when I am presenting them in my papers.

I also have at least 2 side projects about the effects of golden algae on fish and microbial community structure.

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 01:08 PM
I would say that depends on what you are doing. If you are wanting to be an economist, I'd completely agree with you. If you are wanting to work on particle accelerators, leaving for the private sector only results in a degradation of your skills.

This. Most of the work I do is applied anyway. I work alongside the workforce and supply things for them to use. My field is mostly environmental so there arent a ton of options. Its work for the government, be an environmental consultant, or be a researcher or professor.

Academia isnt just about reading and stuff all day. Its basically running your own company that is all based on what you can produce. You have a staff and students the whole bit.

Ike
8/2/2011, 01:15 PM
Academia isnt just about reading and stuff all day. Its basically running your own company that is all based on what you can produce. You have a staff and students the whole bit.

Also, Academia isn't really about teaching. That's just a side gig.*




*excepting community colleges and some small liberal arts colleges. At a research university, the fastest way to be denied tenure is to pour all your energy into being the best instructor you can be.

badger
8/2/2011, 01:29 PM
OK, I read all seven pages of your friendly discourse. Very interesting conversation.

I feel bad for grad students that will have shoulder debt. However, I've read that the norm recently with the shaky job market was for students to just simply re-enter college so that they didn't have to start making their student loan payments immediately. Or, if they lost their job, go back to school for another degree via loans.

I'm not saying anyone here did this, but it was kind of eyebrow raising that some people's answers out there to the bad job market, being unemployed, etc. was "let's take out more student loans and not have to worry about a job!"

I wish that the magic wand could be waived and all federal student loan debt could be forgiven. If recent grads didn't have to worry about tens of thousands of dollars in debt, they'd be out stimulating the economy with home purchases and renovations, cars, and many, many goods and services, and perhaps starting families earlier too. With that giant debt burden hanging over their heads, however -- and no option to default like the Gen Xers got to -- there's no way around it.

Sooner98
8/2/2011, 01:39 PM
This thread in a nutshell:

-EQ6eHeBrhM

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 01:44 PM
This thread in a nutshell:

-EQ6eHeBrhM

Dude its cool and all if you dont have sympathy for someone else's plight...

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 01:50 PM
you chose to pursue a PhD and are complaining about your "plight?"

really?

Sooner24
8/2/2011, 01:58 PM
Dude its cool and all if you dont have sympathy for someone else's plight...

I do agree with the you that the rules shouldn't change in the middle of the game.

Sooner24
8/2/2011, 02:00 PM
OK, I read all seven pages of your friendly discourse. Very interesting conversation.

I feel bad for grad students that will have shoulder debt. However, I've read that the norm recently with the shaky job market was for students to just simply re-enter college so that they didn't have to start making their student loan payments immediately. Or, if they lost their job, go back to school for another degree via loans.

I'm not saying anyone here did this, but it was kind of eyebrow raising that some people's answers out there to the bad job market, being unemployed, etc. was "let's take out more student loans and not have to worry about a job!"

I wish that the magic wand could be waived and all federal student loan debt could be forgiven. If recent grads didn't have to worry about tens of thousands of dollars in debt, they'd be out stimulating the economy with home purchases and renovations, cars, and many, many goods and services, and perhaps starting families earlier too. With that giant debt burden hanging over their heads, however -- and no option to default like the Gen Xers got to -- there's no way around it.

Then they would just borrow more money and start the process all over again.

Also how did the Gen Xer get to default on student loans? I guess I missed that. :confused:

Sooner98
8/2/2011, 02:08 PM
Dude its cool and all if you dont have sympathy for someone else's plight...

I would have had more sympathy, had the class warfare card not been played.

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 02:21 PM
you chose to pursue a PhD and are complaining about your "plight?"

really?

If you dont get it by now, you just wont get it. The rules changed. I am now in a more difficult situation than I was before. I am complaining about it.

Plight: –noun
a condition, state, or situation, especially an unfavorable or unfortunate one: to find oneself in a sorry plight. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plight)

soonerhubs
8/2/2011, 02:21 PM
Way to advance innovation!!!

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 02:22 PM
If you dont get it by now, you just wont get it. The rules changed. I am now in a more difficult situation than I was before. I am complaining about it.

Plight: –noun
a condition, state, or situation, especially an unfavorable or unfortunate one: to find oneself in a sorry plight. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plight)

i'm simply stating that as a PhD candidate or whatever it is you're called - you're damn lucky - you're way above the average population. consider yourself blessed and fortunate

the rules change for everybody - its called life. get used to it - but this is not a "plight"

not in my opinion anyway

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 02:24 PM
I would have had more sympathy, had the class warfare card not been played.

So apparently nobody is allowed to get angry ever? The class warfare card got played because I think the wrong people are getting the shaft. Or at least the wrong people are getting the shaft first. We are all going to have to take a little bit of shaft on this deal. But its funny that the people that are actually attempting to improve their station and work are getting the shaft first.

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 02:26 PM
i'm simply stating that as a PhD candidate or whatever it is you're called - you're damn lucky - you're way above the average population. consider yourself blessed and fortunate

the rules change for everybody - its called life. get used to it - but this is not a "plight"

not in my opinion anyway

I do consider myself very blessed and very fortunate, I do not however consider myself lucky. I've been working my *** off to get where I am.

And if you look in the dictionary, yes it is a plight.

jk the sooner fan
8/2/2011, 02:30 PM
I do consider myself very blessed and very fortunate, I do not however consider myself lucky. I've been working my *** off to get where I am.

And if you look in the dictionary, yes it is a plight.

noted, compared to other people's plights -you've got it pretty good! :)

OutlandTrophy
8/2/2011, 02:34 PM
Coolbreeze, I know you're not a Christian but Proverbs 22:7 describes the relationship you have with whomever loaned you the money to advance your studies. This is also why they can change the rules midstream. I don't blame you for being angry.

From the King James Bible

The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

soonerhubs
8/2/2011, 02:39 PM
The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

Unless the borrower is too big to fail. :)

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 02:39 PM
The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

Unless the borrower is too big to fail. :)

No ****. That is who should be getting the shaft first.

87sooner
8/2/2011, 02:40 PM
I have never understood why people that have millions of dollars should pay a higher percentage of taxes than I do.

most of my life i would agree with you...
but it seems more recently the deck is becoming so overwhelmingly stacked in favor of wealthy people.....i'm starting to lean towards much higher taxes for the rich...
but i would consider the rich to be those that earn over $5 mil/year...

badger
8/2/2011, 02:41 PM
Then they would just borrow more money and start the process all over again.

Also how did the Gen Xer get to default on student loans? I guess I missed that. :confused:

Perhaps it was a bit earlier, but according to FAFSA's official site, bankruptcy used to be an excuse for defaulting on student debt.

Link (http://www.finaid.org/questions/bankruptcyexception.phtml)


# 2005: An amendment added an exception to discharge for qualified education loans, which includes most private student loans. Before this amendment only private student loans made under a "program funded in whole or in part by a governmental unit or nonprofit institution" were excepted from discharge. However, most private student loans included a nonprofit organization as the guarantor, and the courts have interpreted such loans as excepted from discharge.

# 1998: An amendment struck the requirement that allowed education loans to be discharged after 7 years in repayment (not counting deferment and forbearance periods in which the repayment obligation was suspended).

# 1990: An amendment changed the time period required before a loan could be discharged from 5 years to 7 years.

# 1984: An amendment changed the language excepting loans from a "nonprofit institution of higher education" by striking the words "of higher education". This opened the door for private student loans to be excepted from discharge.

# 1979: An amendment excluded periods during which the repayment obligation was suspended, such as deferments and forbearances, from the 5 year period before an education loan could be discharged. The amendment also clarified the "to a governmental unit, or a nonprofit institution of higher education" language to indicate that government loans included those insured or guaranteed by a governmental unit and not just those made by a governmental unit, and that loans to a nonprofit institution of higher education were loans "made under any program funded in whole or in part by a governmental unit or a nonprofit institution of higher education".

# 1978: Initial enactment of the exception to discharge for education loans. Prior to this legislation, education loans were dischargeable in bankruptcy without any exceptions.

Curly Bill
8/2/2011, 02:44 PM
Sorry, but this is just absolute BS. Everyone should have the RIGHT to get an education. You don't think he's paying for it? He's paying for it with loans, which the government just pulled part of the agreement out from under him.

I'm making over six figures and I live like I'm making half that because of the cost of my education. My parents were teachers and could not afford to send me to college, so I had to have student loans. There's something wrong with the entire picture.

But, let's punish the middle class because Exxon doesn't want to pay taxes. Makes perfect sense to me.

You "had to have student loans"? Who exactly made you go to college? I mean you could have chosen not to right? When it comes down to it you made the choice to go, and afterwards you get to pay for it. Makes sense to me that if you're the one who chose to go, will get the benefits of having gone, than you are the one who gets to pay for it.

soonerhubs
8/2/2011, 02:44 PM
:mad:

This provision is complete bull****, and it fosters a culture that undermines education and innovation. Why this is attacked wholesale while this country needs innovation more than ever is beyond me.

hOUrricane
8/2/2011, 02:48 PM
You're almost done. Good work. Then you can have your subsidized job "working" for the gov't, listening to subsidized radio NPR and applying for gov't grants to take kids to Texoma and live your dream.

:)

soonerhubs
8/2/2011, 02:51 PM
You're almost done. Good work. Then you can have your subsidized job "working" for the gov't, listening to subsidized radio NPR and applying for gov't grants to take kids to Texoma and live your dream.

:)

Is that while driving on subsidized roads, waving at subsidized law enforcement, and using subsidized technologies developed by the University?

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 02:53 PM
You "had to have student loans"? Who exactly made you go to college? I mean you could have chosen not to right? When it comes down to it you made the choice to go, and afterwards you get to pay for it. Makes sense to me that if you're the one who chose to go, will get the benefits of having gone, than you are the one who gets to pay for it.

You're right. We don't want our middle and lower class citizens to get educations. My bad.

Obviously, I get to pay for it. I'm not saying I shouldn't, and I am paying for it. What I'm arguing against is making it tougher for people to afford school. That doesn't make sense to me. It was tough enough when you could defer loans while in school.

MsProudSooner
8/2/2011, 02:55 PM
Perhaps the question shouldn't be about who should subsidize who, but why in the hell education has gotten so damn expensive. Our schools are increasing tuition at double digits every year without significant gains in educational quality.

These student loans are now equal to 7% of GDP. That's money tied up in the federal loans programs not creating jobs.


The same thing goes for all things medical.

OutlandTrophy
8/2/2011, 02:57 PM
You're right. We don't want our middle and lower class citizens to get educations. My bad.

Obviously, I get to pay for it. I'm not saying I shouldn't, and I am paying for it. What I'm arguing against is making it tougher for people to afford school. That doesn't make sense to me. It was tough enough when you could defer loans while in school.

hmm, I made it through OU with nary a student loan. My mom gave me $200 a month, I came up with the rest on my own.

I became very good friends with Mr. Shirley, the Bursar. When it was time to enroll I always had a Bursar stop so I'd bypass the front counter, go through the door on the left then back and to the right to his office where Missy would have me wait and let him know i was there. He'd remove the stop, I'd enroll and I'd have Fall paid off when Spring was over, rinse & repeat each and every semester.

hOUrricane
8/2/2011, 03:00 PM
Is that while driving on subsidized roads, waving at subsidized law enforcement, and using subsidized technologies developed by the University?

I'm sorry you don't understand my inside joke. It's not your fault. Fraggle and I share something that you cannot understand. I spent time at the BioStation getting drunk. It's cool...really. Just leave it be.

:eek:

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 03:01 PM
hmm, I made it through OU with nary a student loan. My mom gave me $200 a month, I came up with the rest on my own.

I became very good friends with Mr. Shirley, the Bursar. When it was time to enroll I always had a Bursar stop so I'd bypass the front counter, go through the door on the left then back and to the right to his office where Missy would have me wait and let him know i was there. He'd remove the stop, I'd enroll and I'd have Fall paid off when Spring was over, rinse & repeat each and every semester.

Congrats. My parents couldn't afford to give me anything and I was paying out of state tuition. I had the first year paid through savings, but the rest was up to student loans.

Even if I would have gone in-state I would have come out with loans (my sisters did) but I chose to chase my dream and I'm paying for it. No biggie at all. I just don't think it's a good idea to make it tougher for people to get a degree when a degree is more and more important in getting a decent job.

soonerhubs
8/2/2011, 03:03 PM
I'm sorry you don't understand my inside joke. It's not your fault. Fraggle and I share something that you cannot understand. I spent time at the BioStation getting drunk. It's cool...really. Just leave it be.

:eek:

Sorry bout that! I'm just in a bad mood about so many parts of this bill.

Sooner5030
8/2/2011, 03:03 PM
No biggie at all. I just don't think it's a good idea to make it tougher for people to get a degree when a degree is more and more important in getting a decent job.

Zero sum - you just made life tougher on the person that had pay that interest for you. Can they get a decent job too?

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 03:05 PM
Zero sum - you just made life tougher on the person that had pay that interest for you. Can they get a decent job too?

Huh? This makes ZERO sense. None.

Sooner5030
8/2/2011, 03:07 PM
you took from someone else to make your situation better by the same quantity. It's just bundled together and thrown on the backs of the 48% of those that actually pay federal income tax.

soonerhubs
8/2/2011, 03:08 PM
Zero sum - you just made life tougher on the person that had pay that interest for you. Can they get a decent job too?

If you are including the social costs of lower education into this, you are way off.

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 03:10 PM
you took from someone else to make your situation better by the same quantity. It's just bundled together and thrown on the backs of the 48% of those that actually pay federal income tax.

If you take it away do taxes go down? No. Therefore, your post is extremely inaccurate. Nevermind the social costs as someone else pointed out.

Sooner98
8/2/2011, 03:12 PM
So apparently nobody is allowed to get angry ever? The class warfare card got played because I think the wrong people are getting the shaft. Or at least the wrong people are getting the shaft first. We are all going to have to take a little bit of shaft on this deal. But its funny that the people that are actually attempting to improve their station and work are getting the shaft first.

Life has thrown you a curve ball, I get that. We all get thrown curve balls at some point, but we deal with it and find a way to achieve our goals in life, which I am sure you will too. I guess I just don't get the hostility toward a group of people, most of whom have worked every bit as hard as you have, but their payoff/success has just happened to come before yours has.

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 03:14 PM
Life has thrown you a curve ball, I get that. We all get thrown curve balls at some point, but we deal with it and find a way to achieve our goals in life, which I am sure you will too. I guess I just don't get the hostility toward a group of people, most of whom have worked every bit as hard as you have, but their payoff/success has just happened to come before yours has.

This reminds me of a thread a while back sticking up for the banks. Why should we support the government changing the contracts on student loans mid-stream? They certainly wouldn't allow us to change our terms mid-stream without some sort of penalty!

Sooner5030
8/2/2011, 03:16 PM
If you take it away do taxes go down? No. Therefore, your post is extremely inaccurate. Nevermind the social costs as someone else pointed out.

total expenditures decrease.....ceteris paribus....by that exact amount so there will be a difference in the income statement for uncle sam. It's measurable and about as accurate as you can get. WTF is your degree in again?

IndySooner
8/2/2011, 03:24 PM
total expenditures decrease.....ceteris paribus....by that exact amount so there will be a difference in the income statement for uncle sam. It's measurable and about as accurate as you can get. WTF is your degree in again?

Oh, I thought you were sticking up for tax payers. There's a difference between Uncle Sam and tax payers. I don't give a rip about Uncle Sam at this point. I care about tax payers, the American people and the sh*t storm we're being thrown into.

Again, there's no net-zero for tax payers. Benefits go down and taxes aren't decreased.

Sooner5030
8/2/2011, 03:26 PM
Again, there's no net-zero for tax payers. Benefits go down and taxes aren't decreased.

We're all on the hook for the liabilities incurred...whether in debt service expense or total replayment. Talk about a 'tragedy of the commons'.

GDC
8/2/2011, 03:29 PM
It is the duty of every patriot to protect his country from its government.

-Thomas Paine

BU BEAR
8/2/2011, 03:32 PM
If you are including the social costs of lower education into this, you are way off.


Yes, the "social costs." This refers to the threat that those who do not receive a college education are incapable of making good decisions and will either wind up on welfare or in prisons. It is a ridiculous false choice that intends to coerce support for expensive government programs.

soonercruiser
8/2/2011, 03:35 PM
It is the duty of every patriot to protect his country from its government.

-Thomas Paine

A Tea-Bagger!
:D

soonerhubs
8/2/2011, 05:06 PM
Yes, the "social costs." This refers to the threat that those who do not receive a college education are incapable of making good decisions and will either wind up on welfare or in prisons. It is a ridiculous false choice that intends to coerce support for expensive government programs.

I'm open minded, so show me where college education is supposed to reduce bad decisions. While you're at it, show me where it doesn't increase earning power.

Fraggle145
8/2/2011, 05:10 PM
Life has thrown you a curve ball, I get that. We all get thrown curve balls at some point, but we deal with it and find a way to achieve our goals in life, which I am sure you will too. I guess I just don't get the hostility toward a group of people, most of whom have worked every bit as hard as you have, but their payoff/success has just happened to come before yours has.

I would say it was probably misdirected. I should have aimed it more squarely at giant megacorporations that get tax breaks that are more than 100X my entire net worth.

tommieharris91
8/2/2011, 05:11 PM
Has anyone mentioned that pretty much the only way out of student loan debt is death?

badger
8/2/2011, 05:17 PM
Has anyone mentioned that pretty much the only way out of student loan debt is death?

^^^ truth. Bankruptcy, disability, or even the other things that causes people to get behind on payments like health issues, losing your job, divorce, etc. are not going to stop you from... what does FAFSA say?

- 15 percent of take-home pay garnished
-Federal and state income tax refund interception
-Social Security benefits withheld

They even have "horror stories" here. (http://www.fastweb.com/financial-aid/articles/1823-the-horrors-of-defaulting-on-education-debt)

Frozen Sooner
8/2/2011, 07:12 PM
I did a legal paper for publication on the right of Hare Krishnas (and others) to pester you at the airport. That one made it. My other on a Nebraska bus driver's porn entrapment did not. Academic writing is so "fun"!

Ha. We read that case in Crim. My notes refer to the defendant as "kiddy diddler."

BU BEAR
8/2/2011, 09:00 PM
...

Curly Bill
8/2/2011, 09:39 PM
Has anyone mentioned that pretty much the only way out of student loan debt is death?

I got out of mine...

...Oh wait, I paid it off. ;)

Midtowner
8/2/2011, 09:58 PM
money is not free.......the interest accrual for the student is deferred but either the government is subsidizing that interest during that period or the GSE is taking a loss/charge.

That's for Stafford subsidized loans, which are a small percentage of what most students get.

Sooner5030
8/2/2011, 10:05 PM
that's what is being discussed.......the subsidized loans for grad students are getting yanked in this deal but an additional $17 billion will be provided for undergrad pell grants.

yermom
8/2/2011, 10:25 PM
Has anyone mentioned that pretty much the only way out of student loan debt is death?

There are ways involving working for non-profits or educational institutions or something

Frozen Sooner
8/3/2011, 07:14 AM
Woo! I finally qualified for a subsidized loan this year. Fortunately, this year isn't affected, and it's my last year.

badger
8/3/2011, 07:36 AM
Tell your classmates and any college kid you see not to drag their feet through their degree program! Don't take 5, 6, 7, 8 years from tons of major switches or below-fulltime course loads.

If anything, this is a sign that there will be an end to massive student loans or more limitations placed in the future.

Take advantage of the student loan programs while you can! It might not be available in a few years!

Midtowner
8/3/2011, 07:50 AM
Try living in "poverty" somewhere outside of the US. Most of the "poor" in America have as high of a standard of living than the average European. Go see what poverty looks like in places like Honduras, India, Brazil, and most of Africa... then come home and cry me a river about the plight of the poor in the US.

Actually, the folks in India have a totally free post-secondary education if they want it.

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 08:06 AM
hatred is unhealthy

rich people dont bother me - never have, i dont feel threatened or offended by them

Lets say you are married but file separately. Now let say you make an even $1Million per year, while living in Oklahoma.

You pay in just $336,000 in state, local, and federal taxes. Or roughly 33.6%.

Making that much money as an individual, would it really hurt you to pay in say another 0.4-1.0% in taxes? No it wouldn't. Hell, I'll venture to say that you wouldn't be bothered much if your tax rate was raised by 6.0%.

No one is hating the rich. But they really are the only ones that an afford to pay more, so they should have to shoulder the burden a little more.

However, I think all individuals in this country should take on more of the burden as a whole. It shouldnt all be left to the rich to pay.

Midtowner
8/3/2011, 08:07 AM
The same thing goes for all things medical.

The over-arching problem is that whenever the feds make x number of dollars available, tuition at many schools is automatically adjusted to equal x for a full time load.

Medical is the same deal. With insurance and medicare, we've all lost touch with the actual cost of medical care.

With student loans, the system is focused on disbursing the maximum amount to the schools and piling up large-as-possible debts for the lenders. There is no consideration to the ability of the student to pay the loans back. Heck, with for-profit colleges, which are sprouting up everywhere, e.g., Mackie Brown, Phoenix, etc., we're seeing student loan default rates in excess of 50%. When student loans make up as much of our economy as they do and taxpayers are being put on the hook for an increasing number of defaults, the taxpayer again is probably going to have to take a bath.

MsProudSooner
8/3/2011, 08:23 AM
The over-arching problem is that whenever the feds make x number of dollars available, tuition at many schools is automatically adjusted to equal x for a full time load.

Medical is the same deal. With insurance and medicare, we've all lost touch with the actual cost of medical care.

With student loans, the system is focused on disbursing the maximum amount to the schools and piling up large-as-possible debts for the lenders. There is no consideration to the ability of the student to pay the loans back. Heck, with for-profit colleges, which are sprouting up everywhere, e.g., Mackie Brown, Phoenix, etc., we're seeing student loan default rates in excess of 50%. When student loans make up as much of our economy as they do and taxpayers are being put on the hook for an increasing number of defaults, the taxpayer again is probably going to have to take a bath.

So what is the solution to the problem?

Higher education and/or being self-employed has been the way out of poverty for millions of people over the years. The belief was that if you were willing to work hard in the classroom or to build up a business, you could be more financially secure than your parents and their parents. If you didn't qualify for academic scholarships or Pell Grants, affordable loans were available. If there are no affordable loans, how do students whose parents can't afford to send them to school break the cycle?. Starting your own business seems to be much more difficult than it was 50 years ago.

I guess this is good news for those who suffer from insomnia over illegal immigration. If there is no opportunity for a better life in America, people won't want to come here legally or illegally.

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 08:27 AM
Making that much money as an individual, would it really hurt you to pay in say another 0.4-1.0% in taxes? No it wouldn't. Hell, I'll venture to say that you wouldn't be bothered much if your tax rate was raised by 6.0%.

No one is hating the rich. But they really are the only ones that an afford to pay more, so they should have to shoulder the burden a little more.



what a jacked up socialistic way of thinking

Sooner24
8/3/2011, 08:32 AM
Lets say you are married but file separately. Now let say you make an even $1Million per year, while living in Oklahoma.

You pay in just $336,000 in state, local, and federal taxes. Or roughly 33.6%.

Making that much money as an individual, would it really hurt you to pay in say another 0.4-1.0% in taxes? No it wouldn't. Hell, I'll venture to say that you wouldn't be bothered much if your tax rate was raised by 6.0%.

No one is hating the rich. But they really are the only ones that an afford to pay more, so they should have to shoulder the burden a little more.

However, I think all individuals in this country should take on more of the burden as a whole. It shouldnt all be left to the rich to pay.


what a jacked up socialistic way of thinking

Totally.

Ike
8/3/2011, 08:59 AM
The over-arching problem is that whenever the feds make x number of dollars available, tuition at many schools is automatically adjusted to equal x for a full time load.


Add to that that the way schools try to compete with each other these days has little to do with the quality of education. Instead, they believe (probably rightly) that the way to attract new students is to undertake costly new building projects and offer more student amenities. They want to make an impression on that campus tour.

Midtowner
8/3/2011, 09:17 AM
So what is the solution to the problem?

The solution seems pretty obvious to me. If we want to stop the inflation of tuition, and stop it cold, then put a hard cap on student loans--at least the kind which can't be discharged in bankruptcy. If a lender thinks it's a good bet to loan $100K above the protected maximum to an individual going after an M.A. in photography, then power to 'em, but let the private sector bear the cost and risk associated with that dumb bet. Not the taxpayer.

hOUrricane
8/3/2011, 10:22 AM
Woo! I finally qualified for a subsidized loan this year. Fortunately, this year isn't affected, and it's my last year.

So what's the point of this thread then? Fraggle is done soon.

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 11:40 AM
what a jacked up socialistic way of thinking

How so? I because I think everyone from rich to poor should help get us out of this debt? Along with the government spending a lot less and downsizing?

Please tell me where the socialist view is in that.

Position Limit
8/3/2011, 11:50 AM
what a jacked up socialistic way of thinking

socialist, marixist, communist...which one? is it socialist because it makes perfect sense and you cant understant it?

KABOOKIE
8/3/2011, 12:27 PM
socialist, marixist, communist...which one? is it socialist because it makes perfect sense and you cant understant it?

I need some money. You sound like you have plenty. Please deposit your money in my account.

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 12:30 PM
I need some money. You sound like you have plenty. Please deposit your money in my account.

Work some place but mcdonalds!

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 12:33 PM
How so? I because I think everyone from rich to poor should help get us out of this debt? Along with the government spending a lot less and downsizing?

Please tell me where the socialist view is in that.

"you have more money than me, so i think you should give me some"

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 12:34 PM
socialist, marixist, communist...which one? is it socialist because it makes perfect sense and you cant understant it?

not shocked at all that you'd find this redistribution plan to be suitable

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 12:37 PM
"you have more money than me, so i think you should give me some"

Problem reading? Get inside to the a/c and cool off there of great republican.

I never said there needs to be a trickle down effect. In fact if you would learn how to read you will see where I said I think everyone should help in this debt issue. Meaning from the poor to the rich elitists like you.

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 12:44 PM
i'm a rich elitist? now who has the reading problem?

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 12:47 PM
2. What income group pays the most federal income taxes today?

The latest data show that a big portion of the federal income tax burden is shoul*dered by a small group of the very richest Americans. The wealthiest 1 percent of the population earn 19 per*cent of the income but pay 37 percent of the income tax. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab. Meanwhile, the bottom 50 percent—those below the median income level—now earn 13 percent of the income but pay just 3 percent of the taxes. These are proportions of the income tax alone and don’t include payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare.

i'm in favor of a flat tax, a system where we're all taxed the same amount. Poor people really dont pay much in the way of income taxes - most of what they pay - they get back

http://www.american.com/graphics/2007/november/Guess%20Who%20Really%20Pays%20the%20Taxes.jpg


http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes

Sooner24
8/3/2011, 01:03 PM
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/strips/mallard/2000/MFT20110803.jpg

soonerbub
8/3/2011, 01:08 PM
Lets say you are married but file separately. Now let say you make an even $1Million per year, while living in Oklahoma.

You pay in just $336,000 in state, local, and federal taxes. Or roughly 33.6%.

Making that much money as an individual, would it really hurt you to pay in say another 0.4-1.0% in taxes? No it wouldn't. Hell, I'll venture to say that you wouldn't be bothered much if your tax rate was raised by 6.0%.

No one is hating the rich. But they really are the only ones that an afford to pay more, so they should have to shoulder the burden a little more.

However, I think all individuals in this country should take on more of the burden as a whole. It shouldnt all be left to the rich to pay.

"From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs."
--Karl Marx

soonercruiser
8/3/2011, 01:11 PM
This is a paid political.....er...hotel announcement.
:D

badger
8/3/2011, 01:23 PM
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/strips/mallard/2000/MFT20110803.jpg

Occasionally this guy is funny. That one isn't bad. Good job, Mallard!

:D I still remember the one he did for Boise a few years back, hehehehe

soonercruiser
8/3/2011, 01:24 PM
http://members.cox.net/franklipsinic/Economy/Debt%20ship%20down.jpg

Chuck Bao
8/3/2011, 01:45 PM
Man, it's not terribly complicated. It's the vicious circle of government subsidy.

1. Education is expensive.
2. The government, always here to help, offers subsidized low-interest loans that damn near anyone can get.
3. Educational institutions are as money-hungry as government agencies. So they raise tuition.
4. Go back to #1.

I am just trying to catch up to this thread. I think Midtowner mentioned the tuition rate increases earlier and, subsequently, Ike provided another reason for the tuition hikes. I think he said something about college recruitment these days is focused on beautiful college buildings and campuses.

I think that it is part of our culture these days. Universities are exactly like our modern big metro churches or even some of our small town Oklahoma churches...ahem Madill. Our churches (and universities) need big modern sanctuaries and health gyms and everything else to project an image of plenty. After all, God wants us to be rich. It is indeed a powerful motivator and I am not going to discount that.

Then, God is not so smiling on us and there is an economic downturn and college students saddled with huge loans are stranded. Who said that they were saddled with $1,000 student loan and interest repayments each month? You are in my prayers because that is so obscene.

US universities have priced themselves out of the market. The day of reckoning is coming.

I have said a few times here already - try to undershoot with the undergraduate to get the full scholarships and then try to overshoot with the graduate degrees with the best research institutions available. Just try to ignore the land of plenty culture. It is just an illusion.

Veritas, I very, very much disagree with your post. It is wrong on so many levels.

* Everyone smart enough and willing to work hard enough should get the support of government to attend a university.

* Those poor smart kids or that policy of government support should never be blamed with causing tuition inflation.

* Some of the poor smart kids who get government support now will indeed create jobs some day.

* Our international competitors are getting support that doesn't even come on the US Commerce Department's radar screen of unfair trade practices. For example, students at Thailand's equivalent of Harvard and Yale pay annual tuition fees of less than $1,000, but these Thai universities can still afford to pay for all expenses paid junkets for famous professors from Harvard School of Business or U. of Chicago or Wharton School of Business to do week-long lecture series.

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 01:47 PM
i'm in favor of a flat tax, a system where we're all taxed the same amount. Poor people really dont pay much in the way of income taxes - most of what they pay - they get back

http://www.american.com/graphics/2007/november/Guess%20Who%20Really%20Pays%20the%20Taxes.jpg


http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes

I'm also in favor of a flat tax. But it will never happen.

In a flat tax the rich would still be paying more for their luxury items. Also the poor would get a rebate at the end of the year. So not sure how it wOuld really help other than stimulate the economy more than help with the debt crisis.

This entire issue is a cluster****. But if they were to pay a tax incease I for one won't bitch about it because te generations before me and my generation has made the bed, since we haven't demanded fiscal responsibility by our government., so we need to sleep in that bed and pay for it!

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 01:50 PM
"From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs."
--Karl Marx

So I went from a socialist to a fascist in a matter of a few posts.

Heh!

"Those scared of change are always stuck in the same hole."
-OU_Sooners75

47straight
8/3/2011, 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Veritas
Man, it's not terribly complicated. It's the vicious circle of government subsidy.

1. Education is expensive.
2. The government, always here to help, offers subsidized low-interest loans that damn near anyone can get.
3. Educational institutions are as money-hungry as government agencies. So they raise tuition.
4. Go back to #1.

The tuition is raised because there is free money to be had. Period.

GDC
8/3/2011, 01:51 PM
It amazes me how often the people who talk about how evil the redistribution of wealth is are also religious, and most religions espouse helping those less fortunate than us.

Michelle Bachmann hates socialism and the tea baggers love her, but her family farm gets government subsidies, her husband's clinic accepts medicare, and her home is financed by fannie mae.

So many hypocrites out there...

OutlandTrophy
8/3/2011, 01:52 PM
So I went from a socialist to a fascist in a matter of a few posts.

Heh!

"Those scared of change are always stuck in the same hole."
-OU_Sooners75

are you sure you know what being a fascist means? The reason I ask is because you are using the term incorrectly.

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 01:55 PM
It amazes me how often the people who talk about how evil the redistribution of wealth is are also religious, and most religions espouse helping those less fortunate than us.

Michelle Bachmann hates socialism and the tea baggers love her, but her family farm gets government subsidies, her husband's clinic accepts medicare, and her home is financed by fannie mae.

So many hypocrites out there...

she's also taken in 23 foster children

i talk about the evil redistribution of wealth - and i feel good about the amount of money i donate to charity/tithe every year

but i also cashed in on VA benefits....i guess i'm one of those you're talking about

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 01:56 PM
are you sure you know what being a fascist means? The reason I ask is because you are using the term incorrectly.

I'm sure you'll tell me since you do know it all.

Karl Marx was indeed a fascist, right? So please tell me where I used fascist wrong?

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 01:56 PM
wasnt Karl Marx.....considered a Marxist? :)

OutlandTrophy
8/3/2011, 01:56 PM
bingo!

Caboose
8/3/2011, 01:57 PM
It amazes me how often the people who talk about how evil the redistribution of wealth is are also religious, and most religions espouse helping those less fortunate than us.

Michelle Bachmann hates socialism and the tea baggers love her, but her family farm gets government subsidies, her husband's clinic accepts medicare, and her home is financed by fannie mae.

So many hypocrites out there...

Now talk about the hypocrites on the other side...

tommieharris91
8/3/2011, 01:57 PM
I'm not sure anyone has used the terms fascist, socialist, or communist correctly in this thread. Here's a quick and dirty guide:

Hitler = fascist
Stalin = communist
Marx = socialist

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 01:59 PM
Hitler, Mussolini......fascists

Karl Marx - not a fascists

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 02:00 PM
Wasn't he also a communist?

tommieharris91
8/3/2011, 02:01 PM
Wasn't he also a communist?

In name only.

OutlandTrophy
8/3/2011, 02:01 PM
from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism


From the first hours of Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union, the propagandists on both sides of the conflict portrayed the struggle in stark, Manichaean language. The totalitarian nature of both regimes made this inevitable. On one side stood Hitler, fascism, the myth of German supremacy; on the other side stood Stalin, communism, and the international proletarian revolution. —Anne Applebaum, New York Review of Books, 25 Oct. 2007



also from merriam-webster


the political, economic, and social principles and policies advocated by Marx; especially : a theory and practice of socialism including the labor theory of value, dialectical materialism, the class struggle, and dictatorship of the proletariat until the establishment of a classless society


you might be better suited to discuss the difference between a pork chop and a ribeye steak than the difference between fascism and communism or socialism.

Position Limit
8/3/2011, 02:01 PM
marxism and socialism is a stong part of the vernacular with some of you guys. yall need to come up with something even more shocking that you know nothing about. lets get communism in the rotation at least. i know jk has a copy of red dawn at the ready. get you some of that good 80's propaganda and lets put this new word to use.

OutlandTrophy
8/3/2011, 02:04 PM
marxism and socialism is a stong part of the vernacular with some of you guys. yall need to come up with something even more shocking that you know nothing about. lets get communism in the rotation at least. i know jk has a copy of red dawn at the ready. get you some of that good 80's propaganda and lets put this new word to use.

It's even worse when guys like 75 just randomly and incorrectly attribute Karl Marx with fascism.

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 02:04 PM
In name only.

nooooo, i'm pretty sure he was one in practice too

he didnt write The Socialist Manifesto....it was the Communist Manifesto

he's known as the founder of communism

OutlandTrophy
8/3/2011, 02:05 PM
nooooo, i'm pretty sure he was one in practice too

he didnt write The Socialist Manifesto....it was the Communist Manifesto

he's known as the founder of communism

get out!! Look at you acting all high and mighty because you learned things in college. snob. elitist snob.

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 02:06 PM
marxism and socialism is a stong part of the vernacular with some of you guys. yall need to come up with something even more shocking that you know nothing about. lets get communism in the rotation at least. i know jk has a copy of red dawn at the ready. get you some of that good 80's propaganda and lets put this new word to use.

you have no idea what you're talking about - and are doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of - but whatever

you're predictably boring

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 02:06 PM
Oh enlighten me oh knowing one (outlandishtrophy)

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 02:06 PM
get out!! Look at you acting all high and mighty because you learned things in college. snob. elitist snob.

elitist RICH snob

you low life looser

Sooner24
8/3/2011, 02:08 PM
It amazes me how often the people who talk about how evil the redistribution of wealth is are also religious, and most religions espouse helping those less fortunate than us.

Michelle Bachmann hates socialism and the tea baggers love her, but her family farm gets government subsidies, her husband's clinic accepts medicare, and her home is financed by fannie mae.

So many hypocrites out there...

Being religious and the redistribution of wealth are two seperate animals. Our church uses my a part of tithes to help familys in need. I give willingly to my church for that purpose and to keep the lights on and other things. Uncle Sam taking my money and giving it to people that are to lazy to get up and do for themselves is a different story.

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 02:08 PM
It's even worse when guys like 75 just randomly and incorrectly attribute Karl Marx with fascism.

All of them are basically ****ed up ideologies. Can't keep track of all of them, nor remember them all like you superior brain can.

Maybe you should to be a dick a little might get you point across.

OutlandTrophy
8/3/2011, 02:09 PM
Nevada they are basically all ****ed up ideologies. Can't keep track of all of them, nor remember them all like you superior brain can.

Maybe you should to be a dick a little might get you point across.

I accept your apology for you trying to make the board a dumber place.

Position Limit
8/3/2011, 02:09 PM
you have no idea what you're talking about - and are doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of - but whatever

you're predictably boring

yeah i know i'm boring. i'm just glad we have you hear to keep us entertained with unoriginal content. for that i thank you.

Sooner24
8/3/2011, 02:09 PM
from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism




also from merriam-webster



you might be better suited to discuss the difference between a pork chop and a ribeye steak than the difference between fascism and communism or socialism.

I like both pork chops and ribeye steaks. So which group does that put me in? :confused:

OutlandTrophy
8/3/2011, 02:11 PM
I like both pork chops and ribeye steaks. So which group does that put me in? :confused:

I like them both too!! Do you brine your porkchops? I think that's the key to juicy, tender, delicous pork chops on the grill.

Position Limit
8/3/2011, 02:13 PM
Being religious and the redistribution of wealth are two seperate animals. Our church uses my a part of tithes to help familys in need. I give willingly to my church for that purpose and to keep the lights on and other things. Uncle Sam taking my money and giving it to people that are to lazy to get up and do for themselves is a different story.

your mega-church is mega for a reason. and i guess i have to keep asking, which variety of hand outs are you outraged over? the corporate kind or the personal?

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 02:15 PM
yeah i know i'm boring. i'm just glad we have you hear to keep us entertained with unoriginal content. for that i thank you.

you have me HERE....not hear

do me a favor - do a little reading on Socialist Economics

here's a helper for you

Many of the industrialized, open countries of Western Europe experimented with one form of social democratic mixed economies or another during the 20th century. These include Britain (mixed economy and welfare state) from 1945–1979, France (state capitalism and indicative planning) from 1945-1982 under dirigisme, Sweden (social democratic welfare state) and Norway (state capitalist mixed economy) to the present. They can be regarded as social democratic experiments, because they universally retained a wage-based economy and private ownership and control of the decisive means of production.

Nevertheless, these western European countries tried to restructure their economies away from a purely private capitalist model. Variations range from social democratic welfare states, such as in Sweden, to mixed economies where a major percentage of GDP comes from the state sector, such as in Norway, which ranks among the highest countries in quality of life and equality of opportunity for its citizens.[35] Elements of these efforts persist throughout Europe, even if they have repealed some aspects of public control and ownership. They are typically characterized by:

Nationalization of key industries, such as coal, steel, power, and transportation. A common model was for a sector to be taken over by the state and then one or more publicly-owned corporations set up for its day-to-day running. Advantages of nationalization include: the ability of the state to direct investment in key industries, the distribution of state profits from nationalized industries for the overall national good, the ability to direct producers to social rather than market goals, greater control of the industries by and for the workers, and the benefits and burdens of publicly funded research and development are extended to the wider populace.

Redistribution of wealth, typically through progressive taxation

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 02:16 PM
Ah thanks for the spek Outland. You still butt hurt for being tossed at the hideout?

I love when dumb****s like you pretend to know someone.

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 02:17 PM
Ah thanks for the spek Outland. You still butt hurt for being tossed at the hideout?

I love when dumb****s like you pretend to know someone.

wait - are you conversely saying that you know someone.......on a message board?

i mean are you really wearing that badge of honor?

Sooner24
8/3/2011, 02:17 PM
your mega-church is mega for a reason. and i guess i have to keep asking, which variety of hand outs are you outraged over? the corporate kind or the personal?

Mega-church?

I don't go to any mega-church.

OU_Sooners75
8/3/2011, 02:18 PM
you have me HERE....not hear

do me a favor - do a little reading on Socialist Economics

here's a helper for you


And yet on the topic of tax rates, your dumbass calls my views socialistic, when I am in favor of everyone paying their dues and helping rid this country of it's debt.

Yeah, I would call that socialism at it's finest! Lmfao!!!

OutlandTrophy
8/3/2011, 02:18 PM
pretend to know someone?

I never asked to get unbanned from unemploymentville. I simply asked why I was. I didn't get an answer so I told Flag no hard feelings and to let Vet know I still thought of him as a friend.

jk the sooner fan
8/3/2011, 02:20 PM
And yet on the topic of tax rates, your dumbass calls my views socialistic, when I am in favor of everyone paying their dues and helping rid this country of it's debt.

Yeah, I would call that socialism at it's finest! Lmfao!!!

did you see the part about progressive taxation? and where you said that those with more money "shouldnt mind paying a higher %"

really - you cant be this stupid? right?

OutlandTrophy
8/3/2011, 02:21 PM
jk, it's not worth discussing taxes and fiscal policy with someone that gets the earned income tax credit.