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View Full Version : Policeman out of line or the driver with the concealed handgun?



sappstuf
7/21/2011, 09:43 AM
This is a NSFW video(for language) of a cop pulling over a car and the driver had a concealed handgun with license. In the state a concealed gun owner must immediately inform the cop that he has a gun. The driver repeatedly attempts to tell the cop and is told to shut up.

The first 5+ minutes are slow, stuff starts when the officer finally approaches the driver at about the 5:50 mark and finds out he has a gun about a minute later.

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Harry Beanbag
7/21/2011, 09:57 AM
Dickhead, lazy, jaded cops is my conclusion.

Prodigal
7/21/2011, 10:00 AM
That guy should lose his job.

jk the sooner fan
7/21/2011, 10:00 AM
he should be severely reprimanded and retrained for how he handled that

OutlandTrophy
7/21/2011, 10:05 AM
Wow, that cop needs to be in a new line of work.

mgsooner
7/21/2011, 10:06 AM
I like when the cop says "tell me how I don't know you". lol

jk the sooner fan
7/21/2011, 10:08 AM
the driver should have declared his weapon as soon as that officer started searching the back seat

the mouthy officer's actions aren't really defensible as he lost his cool

OutlandTrophy
7/21/2011, 10:10 AM
what's he supposed to do when he tries to tell them and is told to shut his mouth?

The mouthy officer should be jailed for disturbing the peace, assault and terrorstic threats.

jk the sooner fan
7/21/2011, 10:13 AM
when i watched the video he never tried to speak while the officer was searching the back seat

Turd_Ferguson
7/21/2011, 10:16 AM
The first time I was pulled over while carrying, was by an OHP on the Indian Nation. I never even thought about it until I sat down in his car...He wasn't very happy...

sappstuf
7/21/2011, 10:18 AM
when i watched the video he never tried to speak while the officer was searching the back seat

I think he did. He apparently had his concealed license out too, because when the cop finally gets him out of the car the cop asks "Why do you keep having that?", refering to his concealed license.

jk the sooner fan
7/21/2011, 10:20 AM
i didnt see it - and kept watching for it - the officer in the back never even looked towards the driver

if there had been any conversation whatsoever, its likely that the officer in the backseat would have made some eye contact.

i'm not trying to defend the police here - but the driver could have handled it better - and i think he was lying about why he was there

jk the sooner fan
7/21/2011, 10:22 AM
http://amerpundit.com/2011/07/21/officer-who-threatened-citizen-for-carrying-gun-is-suspended/

sappstuf
7/21/2011, 10:23 AM
i didnt see it - and kept watching for it - the officer in the back never even looked towards the driver
if there had been any conversation whatsoever, its likely that the officer in the backseat would have made some eye contact.

i'm not trying to defend the police here - but the driver could have handled it better - and i think he was lying about why he was there

Which is the policemen's fault. I think securing the driver is supposed to be very high on the list. They pulled a car over and besides telling the driver to stay put and shut up, they didn't approach him. It took over 5 minutes to question the driver of the car. That isn't normal, I doubt it is procedure either.

jk the sooner fan
7/21/2011, 10:23 AM
yep - they should have secured everybody first before doing the search

sappstuf
7/21/2011, 10:27 AM
yep - they should have secured everybody first before doing the search

Procedure probably doesn't mean much when you know you are being filmed and you still say:


As soon as I saw your gun I should have taken two steps back, pulled my Glock 40, and just put 10 bullets in your *** and let you drop,” the officer is heard saying off-camera in video. “And he would have been a nice witness as I executed you because you’re stupid.

13:30 mark.

Curly Bill
7/21/2011, 10:28 AM
Been pulled over coupla times while carrying. It's always gone very smooth. In Texas they've changed the law to where we don't even have to tell the officer we're carrying.

jk the sooner fan
7/21/2011, 10:31 AM
Been pulled over coupla times while carrying. It's always gone very smooth. In Texas they've changed the law to where we don't even have to tell the officer we're carrying.

if you have a CHL you are required to provide it and identify

mgsooner
7/21/2011, 10:31 AM
The first time I was pulled over while carrying, was by an OHP on the Indian Nation. I never even thought about it until I sat down in his car...He wasn't very happy...

Did he threaten to execute you?

OUMallen
7/21/2011, 10:34 AM
the driver should have declared his weapon as soon as that officer started searching the back seat

the mouthy officer's actions aren't really defensible as he lost his cool

Agreed. But that cop is a complete a-hole.

Curly Bill
7/21/2011, 10:42 AM
if you have a CHL you are required to provide it and identify

If they ask for it. You are no longer required by law to tell them you are carrying 1st thing.

jk the sooner fan
7/21/2011, 10:42 AM
link?

Curly Bill
7/21/2011, 10:43 AM
link?

Nope, just the last two dudes that pulled me over. One a city cop, the other Texas Highway Patrol.

jk the sooner fan
7/21/2011, 10:45 AM
well - regardless, you're a fool if you dont notify them anyway

Mongo
7/21/2011, 10:47 AM
the best thing to do is not get pulled over even though you carry a .45 loaded

Curly Bill
7/21/2011, 10:47 AM
well - regardless, you're a fool if you dont notify them anyway


I did, and will the next time. Can't hurt.

jk the sooner fan
7/21/2011, 10:53 AM
the best thing to do is not get pulled over even though you carry a .45 loaded

well i have a CHL - so i can carry whatever

more often than not - a CHL is a "get out of jail free" card on speeding tickets

not that i have any personal experience with that ;)

StoopTroup
7/21/2011, 12:01 PM
Here's a 2009 link to the Ohio DA's website to help inform instructors and license holders.

http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/files/Publications/Publications-for-Law-Enforcement/Concealed-Carry-Publications/2009-Concealed-Carry-Laws-Booklet.aspx

Also a 2007 link to the Ohio Conceal Carry Laws

http://www.ohioccw.org/ohios-concealed-carry-laws.html

If I were in Ohio I think I'd know those laws inside and out, have a good attorney on retainer if I was going to carry legal or illegally.

I also would have told the Cop searching the vehicle that I had a gun when he opened the car Door or at the very least tell my passenger to let them know since they approached them first.

Very stupid and I don't care if the law says you don't have to anymore. I think it's a damn good idea and even though there might be a law that says you don't have to tell them, I think it shows respect and is just a good idea to let them know.

Sooner Tri
7/21/2011, 12:35 PM
Regardless of whether the driver made enough effort to inform, or if he didn't do it soon enough, that was very unprofessional behavior by the police officer.

I can't believe how restrained and polite the driver stayed in spite of the terrible way the officer was treating him. If that officer is still employed after that tape is reviewed, it is a sad indictment of the system.

I'm not sure I could've kept my cool with another man speaking to me like that, cop or not! I guess they know they can get away with that from their usual clientele.

Aldebaran
7/21/2011, 12:48 PM
Cop: 1

unemployed taxicab hooker driver: 0

SouthCarolinaSooner
7/21/2011, 12:59 PM
I'm sure held responsible will mean he will get a nice reprimand and suspension or maybe even suspension without pay for a while. I can't believe the driver was able to keep his cool, then again I guess he probably was scared half to death. The superiority complex this cop has developed is also very impressive, guess that's what happens you're given an absolute monopoly over violence.

87sooner
7/21/2011, 01:17 PM
cop was a jerk....needs to be "retrained"...

driver could have been more vocal in declaring his concealed weapon...

the cop should have approached the driver for id....at which time the driver would clearly have handed over his cw license and declared the weapon...

i couldn't read the fine print....was the driver charged for not declaring his weapon?
if so...the prosecutor should be hammered as well...
the video does more to incriminate the police than the driver...

Wishboned
7/21/2011, 01:28 PM
He even threatened the hooker. Told her if he saw her again he was going to put lumps on her.

SouthCarolinaSooner
7/21/2011, 01:28 PM
cop was a jerk....needs to be "retrained"...

driver could have been more vocal in declaring his concealed weapon...

the cop should have approached the driver for id....at which time the driver would clearly have handed over his cw license and declared the weapon...

i couldn't read the fine print....was the driver charged for not declaring his weapon?
if so...the prosecutor should be hammered as well...
the video does more to incriminate the police than the driver...
By retrained you mean fired right?

87sooner
7/21/2011, 01:35 PM
By retrained you mean fired right?

if it were me....i'd prolly make an example of him and fire him...
especially if he had any complaints at all on his record....
like the above poster pointed out....he also threatened physical harm towards one of the passengers...
that's enuf to fire him in my book...

jkjsooner
7/21/2011, 02:24 PM
By retrained you mean fired right?

And by fired you mean charged for making a death threat, right?

SouthCarolinaSooner
7/21/2011, 02:33 PM
And by fired you mean charged for making a death threat, right?
right

87sooner
7/21/2011, 02:36 PM
found this ....



I want to assure our citizens that the behavior, as demonstrated in this video, is wholly unacceptable and in complete contradiction to the professional standards we demand of our officers. As such, appropriate steps were placed in motion as dictated by our standards, policies and contractual obligations. Those steps included: The officer immediately being relieved of all duty. The incident has been referred to the Internal Affairs Bureau for what will be a complete and thorough investigation. As bad as the video indicates our officer’s actions were, there is a due process procedure to follow. That process is designed in the best interest of both our employees and the citizens at large. That process will be followed in this case as in all others. Anyone shown to be in violation of our rules and regulations will be help appropriately responsible as dictated by all the facts. ~Chief Dean McKimm

87sooner
7/21/2011, 02:57 PM
Cop: 1

unemployed taxicab hooker driver: 0

the score will be settled in due time...
prolly have a lawsuit or two as well and the "unemployed taxicab hooker driver" and the "hooker" will walk away with fat checks courtesy of ohio taxpayers...

are you on the side of the cop in this case?
what if you found out the cop was a christian? you'd find yourself in a real moral dilemma (pickle)...

TheHumanAlphabet
7/21/2011, 03:05 PM
Cop: Stupid ******* (I like cops, this one needs a new field of endeavor)

unemployed taxicab hooker driver: 1/2 (seems he may come out okay)

FIFY

GKeeper316
7/21/2011, 03:25 PM
****in worthless cops... its the culture of law enforcement.

we need to screen law enforcement applicants better. find people that actually want to serve and protect the public instead of threaten them with violence and **** on thier civil rights.

tator
7/21/2011, 03:29 PM
the score will be settled in due time...
prolly have a lawsuit or two as well and the "unemployed taxicab hooker driver" and the "hooker" will walk away with fat checks courtesy of ohio taxpayers...

are you on the side of the cop in this case?
what if you found out the cop was a christian? you'd find yourself in a real moral dilemma (pickle)...
I don't follow

NTXSooner13
7/21/2011, 04:11 PM
You would think his partner would have at least told him to simmer down a bit.

Breadburner
7/21/2011, 04:57 PM
I think that audio was fake.....

Turd_Ferguson
7/21/2011, 07:13 PM
Did he died?

StoopTroup
7/21/2011, 07:15 PM
****in worthless cops... its the culture of law enforcement.

we need to screen law enforcement applicants better. find people that actually want to serve and protect the public instead of threaten them with violence and **** on thier civil rights.

Damn right! Requiring them to have a Degree isn't enough.

StoopTroup
7/21/2011, 07:30 PM
I think that audio was fake.....

I do love these videos where no one can actually see anything that is going on and then someone posts it on YouTube. There is so much information missing that would maybe explain why it was handled this way. There's no link to any articles....just an attempt for folks to create outrage instead of see if the incident is handled in a proper manner after the complaint against the officer was lodged.


"I think it's important for citizens to understand that the behavior demonstrated on the video is wholly unacceptable, and it violates many of our rules, our regulations and standards we demand of our officers," Chief Dean McKimm said Thursday.

The officer on the video, Daniel Harless, was placed on administrative leave in June and has been on sick leave since Monday, McKimm said.

The results of the investigation will be presented at a disciplinary hearing, the chief said.

"The city administration, in conjunction with the police department, recognizes the seriousness of this matter," McKimm said.

Bill Adams, president of the Canton Police Patrolmen's Association, has watched the video.

Adams said that officers deal with emotional and dangerous situations on the job. But when officers respond to calls involving guns "it's an emotional situation. I'm not condoning ... anything that might have happened in the video."

"Obviously we have a lot of hard-working police officers on this department who do a lot of good work," he said. "Obviously, whatever transpired on that video is an isolated incident. It happened, and it's being handled properly right now, and the chief is doing what he feels is necessary."
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7904

Sounds to me like things will workout eventually.


The Canton Repository is reporting that Canton police are investigating an officer for his conduct during a traffic stop in June involving a concealed handgun license holder.

okie52
7/21/2011, 07:35 PM
****in worthless cops... its the culture of law enforcement.

we need to screen law enforcement applicants better. find people that actually want to serve and protect the public instead of threaten them with violence and **** on thier civil rights.

A bad cop...no doubt although the guy should have identified he was carrying.

But you are a defender of freedom...which of our freedoms did you defend?

StoopTroup
7/21/2011, 07:39 PM
I mean....Canton Police don't always have things go the way they think it will same as the Police that were looking for Caylee Anthony. I think many of them face some pretty awful situations over the course of their Career. Hopefully when they need to be retired, fired or trained....the right call is made just like it should at any job.


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87sooner
7/21/2011, 07:41 PM
A bad cop...no doubt although the guy should have identified he was carrying.

But you are a defender of freedom...which of our freedoms did you defend?


the guy tried to tell the cops he had a cw license....he tried to give them his license...
he admitted he had never been stopped before while carrying..
he didn't really expect cops to act like such *******s...
yes...he could have yelled it out.....
but any honest person looking at that tape can tell he did nothing wrong...he broke no laws...

what happened to cops walking up to the driver of a vehicle and asking for an id?
if they had simply done that...the guy would have handed them his cw card..

one has to wonder how they would have treated him even if he had done that...

87sooner
7/21/2011, 07:42 PM
I do love these videos where no one can actually see anything that is going on and then someone posts it on YouTube. There is so much information missing that would maybe explain why it was handled this way. There's no link to any articles....just an attempt for folks to create outrage instead of see if the incident is handled in a proper manner after the complaint against the officer was lodged.


http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7904

Sounds to me like things will workout eventually.

nice going sherlock..
you're my hero...

okie52
7/21/2011, 07:54 PM
the guy tried to tell the cops he had a cw license....he tried to give them his license...
he admitted he had never been stopped before while carrying..
he didn't really expect cops to act like such *******s...
yes...he could have yelled it out.....
but any honest person looking at that tape can tell he did nothing wrong...he broke no laws...

what happened to cops walking up to the driver of a vehicle and asking for an id?
if they had simply done that...the guy would have handed them his cw card..

one has to wonder how they would have treated him even if he had done that...

I had a guy riding with me 2 years ago that always packed heat. I got pulled over in Tulsa for speeding and the cop came to my window. He asked me for my papers and DL. My passenger stated at that time he was carrying and the officer reacted as if it was no big deal. Most cops aren't bad guys just like
most military people aren't bad guys.

This cop was way out of line but that isnt indicative of most cops...that's why a video like this gains an audience....it's the rarity not the norm.

GKeeper316
7/21/2011, 07:56 PM
A bad cop...no doubt although the guy should have identified he was carrying.

But you are a defender of freedom...which of our freedoms did you defend?

huh?

post make no sense.

87sooner
7/21/2011, 08:03 PM
I had a guy riding with me 2 years ago that always packed heat. I got pulled over in Tulsa for speeding and the cop came to my window. He asked me for my papers and DL. My passenger stated at that time he was carrying and the officer reacted as if it was no big deal. Most cops aren't bad guys just like
most military people aren't bad guys.

This cop was way out of line but that isnt indicative of most cops...that's why a video like this gains an audience....it's the rarity not the norm.


first of all...i never said this was typical of cop behavior...

from my experiences...i've never been mistreated by anyone in law enforcement....

but i'm a clean-cut respectful person who drives a nice vehicle in rural oklahoma....

and like someone posted earlier....everything i've heard...a cw license puts cops at ease and is usually a "get out of ticket" card..

sperry
7/21/2011, 08:06 PM
Cops suck.

okie52
7/21/2011, 08:06 PM
huh?

post make no sense.

You were military....and as you have stated the miltary defends our freedoms while cops don't.

So what freedoms did you defend?

87sooner
7/21/2011, 08:08 PM
You were military....and as you have stated the miltary defends our freedoms while cops don't.

So what freedoms did you defend?

oh no....not another soldier/cop hijack;)

soonerboomer93
7/21/2011, 08:16 PM
A bad cop...no doubt although the guy should have identified he was carrying.

But you are a defender of freedom...which of our freedoms did you defend?

His own right to be a doosh

GKeeper316
7/21/2011, 08:24 PM
You were military....and as you have stated the miltary defends our freedoms while cops don't.

So what freedoms did you defend?

i only fought for oil

C&CDean
7/21/2011, 08:44 PM
****in worthless cops... its the culture of law enforcement.

we need to screen law enforcement applicants better. find people that actually want to serve and protect the public instead of threaten them with violence and **** on thier civil rights.

I forget again, what is it exactly that you do?

GKeeper316
7/21/2011, 08:53 PM
I forget again, what is it exactly that you do?

annoy you.

C&CDean
7/21/2011, 08:54 PM
Well you suck at it.

GKeeper316
7/21/2011, 09:00 PM
Well you suck at it.

there's a few things i suck at, sadly :(

olevetonahill
7/21/2011, 09:01 PM
I forget again, what is it exactly that you do?

Hes Daddies YES man.:rolleyes:

olevetonahill
7/21/2011, 09:02 PM
there's a few things i suck at, sadly :(

Mongo says ya do a Great job on a dick tho.

GKeeper316
7/21/2011, 09:03 PM
Mongo says ya do a Great job on a dick tho.

wanna spoon? i get to be the big spoon this time

okie52
7/21/2011, 09:04 PM
i only fought for oil

Apart from Afghanistan, probably true.

okie52
7/21/2011, 09:27 PM
oh no....not another soldier/cop hijack;)

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

GKeeper316
7/21/2011, 09:43 PM
Apart from Afghanistan, probably true.

when i was in the marines all i heard was how pissed off we were supposed to be for fighting and killing over oil... which, oddly enough, is one of the things i have no problem whatsoever fighting over. unlike religion and the your god is clearly inferior to my god wars, fighting over natural resources is something man has done since he could walk upright and carry a big stick.

aint nothing wrong with fighting over the thing that drives modern life, i say.

sooner ngintunr
7/21/2011, 10:50 PM
that cop is a ****ing dip**** to the highest degree.

hOUrricane
7/22/2011, 08:49 AM
Stupid idiot

okie52
7/22/2011, 09:08 AM
when i was in the marines all i heard was how pissed off we were supposed to be for fighting and killing over oil... which, oddly enough, is one of the things i have no problem whatsoever fighting over. unlike religion and the your god is clearly inferior to my god wars, fighting over natural resources is something man has done since he could walk upright and carry a big stick.

aint nothing wrong with fighting over the thing that drives modern life, i say.

I don't disagree with fighting over oil....except when those conflicts can be avoided by having sound energy policies at home.

But I don't consider those freedoms. Maintaining a standard of living, perhaps.

sappstuf
7/22/2011, 09:12 AM
I don't disagree with fighting over oil....except when those conflicts can be avoided by having sound energy policies at home.

But I don't consider those freedoms. Maintaining a standard of living, perhaps.

Okie,

we are going to need that oil to fuel my gasoline powered repeating catapults....

okie52
7/22/2011, 09:13 AM
Okie,

we are going to need that oil to fuel my gasoline powered repeating catapults....

Oklahoma and Texas are prepared to take care of our domestic needs. :D

87sooner
7/22/2011, 09:17 AM
hopefully the bloggers keep and eye on this case/investigation and keep the heat on the police..
the cops like to announce investigations....then when the public forgets about the case 6 months later...the guy will get a slap on the wrist and be back on patrol....
the press in this country is really getting suckier with each passing day.....
nice to have the internet bloggers around to force change...

sappstuf
7/22/2011, 09:18 AM
Oklahoma and Texas are prepared to take care of our domestic needs. :D

Let's hope. The solar powered catapults were a complete disaster...

okie52
7/22/2011, 09:22 AM
Let's hope. The solar powered catapults were a complete disaster...

But they are very green.

May have to resort to using illegals to not only be projectiles but also the power source, too.

sappstuf
7/22/2011, 09:30 AM
But they are very green.

May have to resort to using illegals to not only be projectiles but also the power source, too.

Maybe I could incorporate E-verify into the launching system..

GKeeper316
7/22/2011, 09:32 AM
Let's hope. The solar powered catapults were a complete disaster...

you should use wind power.

okie52
7/22/2011, 09:33 AM
Maybe I could incorporate E-verify into the launching system..

Good idea. We could give work visa's to those that will be the power source, too.

Could make a game of it, too, bonus points for the catapult team that gets closest to a specified target.

sappstuf
7/22/2011, 09:38 AM
you should use wind power.

We found out that having catapults and wind generators in close proximity isn't a good idea. Too messy...

Wishboned
7/22/2011, 02:33 PM
That cop needed lessons from this cop...

WMMPV4D6cs0

hOUrricane
7/22/2011, 02:37 PM
That cop needed lessons from this cop...

WMMPV4D6cs0

Guys like "Jeremy" don't help the cause of the innocent.

OutlandTrophy
7/22/2011, 02:44 PM
Guys like "Jeremy" don't help the cause of the innocent.

how so?

pphilfran
7/22/2011, 02:51 PM
how so?

Probably because Jer was pushing things a little too much...didn't want to give his name....cop made him look the fool...

OutlandTrophy
7/22/2011, 02:54 PM
did he do anything wrong?

pphilfran
7/22/2011, 03:02 PM
did he do anything wrong?

No....but he was pushing things....though he was polite...

Why did he not want to give his name?

That is how things can escalate...

Like I said, the cop made him look like a fool...

hOUrricane
7/22/2011, 04:02 PM
No....but he was pushing things....though he was polite...

Why did he not want to give his name?

That is how things can escalate...

Like I said, the cop made him look like a fool...

Exactly.

The officer was being as polite as can be. It's one thing to stand up for yourself and your freedoms but to be a jerk to someone who is being reasonble makes you a "stupid idiot".

GKeeper316
7/22/2011, 04:09 PM
Exactly.

The officer was being as polite as can be. It's one thing to stand up for yourself and your freedoms but to be a jerk to someone who is being reasonble makes you a "stupid idiot".

technically speaking, all you have to do is hand him your ID, insurance and tell him you're carrying a licensed concealed handgun, and you can refuse all other questions. you do not have to speak to the cops, ever, without an attorney present. that includes traffic stops.

pphilfran
7/22/2011, 04:24 PM
technically speaking, all you have to do is hand him your ID, insurance and tell him you're carrying a licensed concealed handgun, and you can refuse all other questions. you do not have to speak to the cops, ever, without an attorney present. that includes traffic stops.

Didn't they guy say he had no id on his person? Might be wrong...

sanantoniosooner
7/22/2011, 04:30 PM
I'm thinking some form of ID ought to be required to carry a weapon like that.

Wishboned
7/22/2011, 04:36 PM
I'm thinking some form of ID ought to be required to carry a weapon like that.

Not in California. As long as it's unloaded.

OUMallen
7/22/2011, 04:36 PM
nm

jk the sooner fan
7/22/2011, 04:37 PM
did he do anything wrong?

unless being a major ****** bag is wrong - no

okie52
7/22/2011, 04:38 PM
Isn't Arizona open carry?

OUMallen
7/22/2011, 04:54 PM
Isn't Arizona open carry?

When you think about it, isn't almost anywhere open carry as long as it isn't loaded? :confused:

Wishboned
7/22/2011, 04:58 PM
When you think about it, isn't almost anywhere open carry as long as it isn't loaded? :confused:

There are some restrictions. Oklahoma's restrictions are:

A person is permitted to carry unloaded firearms open and not concealed when going to or from the person’s private residence or vehicle, or to a gun shop, gun show, or hunting, target shooting, or other sporting activity.

Caboose
7/23/2011, 08:56 AM
Exactly.

The officer was being as polite as can be. It's one thing to stand up for yourself and your freedoms but to be a jerk to someone who is being reasonble makes you a "stupid idiot".

What are you talking about? Both the cop and "Jer" were polite. This cop handled the situation perfectly and "Jer" did nothing wrong or even remotely jerkish.

Sooner_Tuf
7/25/2011, 03:45 PM
I always thought you were required to identify yourself if asked by any authority. After some quick research that isn't the case. There are quite a few situations which you are required to, such as driving, boarding a plane, entering some buildings, etc.

I think it is probably not in your best interest to refuse to identify yourself if asked. I think you are potentially opening yourself up to being detained by refusing. I'm surprised the guy in the video wasn't taken in until they could ascertain the situation in entirety.

Interesting subject though.

Blue
7/25/2011, 03:53 PM
****in worthless cops... its the culture of law enforcement.

we need to screen law enforcement applicants better. find people that actually want to serve and protect the public instead of threaten them with violence and **** on thier civil rights.

Not to mention an IQ over 80 and mandatory Steroid testing.

OUMallen
7/25/2011, 04:01 PM
I always thought you were required to identify yourself if asked by any authority. After some quick research that isn't the case. There are quite a few situations which you are required to, such as driving, boarding a plane, entering some buildings, etc.

I think it is probably not in your best interest to refuse to identify yourself if asked. I think you are potentially opening yourself up to being detained by refusing. I'm surprised the guy in the video wasn't taken in until they could ascertain the situation in entirety.

Interesting subject though.

One constitutional protection we have is that "probable cause" can never be derived from asserting your constitutional rights. For example, it is impossible for your refusal to give consent to a warrantless vehicle search to be the justification for a warrantless vehicle search. (Otherwise, we wouldn't have any rights, right? Right.)

Now, that's all good in theory, but if you're stopped for a second by a cop at night walking around and you just don't want to give out your name for gigs, I'm not promising you he's going to like it or that he's going to follow the law and leave you alone. It's very likely that he doesn't know what your rights are and that he'll intimidate you into giving him your info.

Big ups to the nice cop in the video.

Turd_Ferguson
7/25/2011, 04:08 PM
One constitutional protection we have is that "probable cause" can never be derived from asserting your constitutional rights. For example, it is impossible for your refusal to give consent to a warrantless vehicle search to be the justification for a warrantless vehicle search. (Otherwise, we wouldn't have any rights, right? Right.)

Now, that's all good in theory, but if you're stopped for a second by a cop at night walking around and you just don't want to give out your name for gigs, I'm not promising you he's going to like it or that he's going to follow the law and leave you alone. It's very likely that he doesn't know what your rights are and that he'll intimidate you into giving him your info.

Big ups to the nice cop in the video.We had this discussion on the board a couple years back. IMO, if you refuse to give consent for search of vehicle, they bring in the dogs...of course, the dogs "hit"...so now they have reason to search...right?

OU Adonis
7/25/2011, 04:10 PM
If you never assert your rights, you will lose them.

DIB
7/25/2011, 04:11 PM
We had this discussion on the board a couple years back. IMO, if you refuse to give consent for search of vehicle, they bring in the dogs...of course, the dogs "hit"...so now they have reason to search...right?

Refusal of a warrantless search cannot be the basis for bringing in the dogs. Any lawyer worth a damn would destroy a fake dog "hit" with no underlying probable cause.

pphilfran
7/25/2011, 04:14 PM
Refusal of a warrantless search cannot be the basis for bringing in the dogs. Any lawyer worth a damn would destroy a fake dog "hit" with no underlying probable cause.

Yep...and I am sure they will bring in the dogs just to mess with some poor innocent...

Turd_Ferguson
7/25/2011, 04:16 PM
Refusal of a warrantless search cannot be the basis for bringing in the dogs. Any lawyer worth a damn would destroy a fake dog "hit" with no underlying probable cause.So, your saying that if you deny consent, they bring in the dogs, the dog gets the "hit", they find something illegal and hall your *** to jail....a lawyer should get you out of it?

DIB
7/25/2011, 04:17 PM
Police will get away with what we let them get away with. It is important to assert your rights at all times.

C&CDean
7/25/2011, 04:17 PM
I don't have a Concealed Carry Permit. I won't ever have one either. If I get pulled over, and a cop asks me "do you have a gun?" I'd go "yes" but I ain't gonna tell him if he doesn't ask. Personally, I believe a CCP does more harm than good. If you've gotta ever use your gun, nobody cares if you have a permit cause the permit only allows you to carry it, not use it.

In all the times I've been pulled over, only one time did a cop ask me that question. It was a State Trooper in Missouri. Why did he ask me? Cause the .357 had slid out a little under the front seat and was sitting between my feet. He goes "is that gun loaded?" I go "yes, it's always loaded." He goes "isn't Oklahoma a concealed carry state?" and I go "sure, I think so." He asked me to unload it and put it in the rear of the Suburban I was driving. I did, and after he called in on my license plate and crap he let me go with a warning for doing 75 in a 65.

DIB
7/25/2011, 04:19 PM
So, your saying that if you deny consent, they bring in the dogs, the dog gets the "hit", they find something illegal and hall your *** to jail....a lawyer should get you out of it?

If they called in the dogs, because I refused to let them search without a warrant, then yes. If they called in the dogs, because they had probable cause, then my consent doesn't matter. Assertion of rights can never be the basis of probable cause.

Turd_Ferguson
7/25/2011, 04:21 PM
If they called in the dogs, because I refused to let them search without a warrant, then yes. If they called in the dogs, because they had probable cause, then my consent doesn't matter. Assertion of rights can never be the basis of probable cause.My point is, if they want to search something...they will. Who is to say the dog handler mistook the dogs action for a "hit", or the officer "thought" he smelled something...

OUMallen
7/25/2011, 04:24 PM
So, your saying that if you deny consent, they bring in the dogs, the dog gets the "hit", they find something illegal and hall your *** to jail....a lawyer should get you out of it?

Absolutely, assuming the cop doesn't lie and provide an otherwise viable reason that resulted in probable cause.


Further, they aren't supposed to even THREATEN to do something they can't do to intimidate you into consenting. E.g.- If you get pulled over for speeding, and that's it, there's no probable cause for anything else, the cop isn't supposed to threaten you with a 4 hour detention (unconstitutional to stop someone for 4 hours for ONLY a speeding ticket) with car and dog search (unconstitutional to bring the dogs in for ONLY denying consent to search). That law school final exam question actually happened to me in Alvarado, TX. Dirtbag cop.

Now, like I always advise any client or friend asking: before you dive in sure that you're right, remember that your ONLY recourse is to go to court and to win. Is it really worth risking all that just to avoid giving someone your name? That's up to each of us individually. Is it worth all that to keep a cop out of your car? You bet your ***; I think it's your American duty to protect yourself from government agents.

DIB
7/25/2011, 04:25 PM
My point is, if they want to search something...they will. Who is to say the dog handler mistook the dogs action for a "hit".

My point is that they can't just bring in the dogs, because you asserted your rights. And no matter what the dogs find, it is your duty as a citizen to fight for your constitutional rights. It is the responsibility of the police to prove that their search was valid, not your responsibility to prove that the search was invalid.

pphilfran
7/25/2011, 04:25 PM
My point is, if they want to search something...they will. Who is to say the dog handler mistook the dogs action for a "hit", or the officer "thought" he smelled something...

And then you would not be in jail since they didn't find anything...

If they did find something then the search was more than likely legal....

OUMallen
7/25/2011, 04:25 PM
My point is, if they want to search something...they will. Who is to say the dog handler mistook the dogs action for a "hit", or the officer "thought" he smelled something...

If you're alleging routine police corruption, then that's another thread we can start. :texan:

Midtowner
7/25/2011, 04:34 PM
So, your saying that if you deny consent, they bring in the dogs, the dog gets the "hit", they find something illegal and hall your *** to jail....a lawyer should get you out of it?

If the dogs took too long to get there, yes.

Turd_Ferguson
7/25/2011, 04:35 PM
If the dogs took too long to get there, yes.Only you...

GKeeper316
7/25/2011, 04:51 PM
We had this discussion on the board a couple years back. IMO, if you refuse to give consent for search of vehicle, they bring in the dogs...of course, the dogs "hit"...so now they have reason to search...right?

supreme court says they can't do that anymore

GKeeper316
7/25/2011, 04:53 PM
One constitutional protection we have is that "probable cause" can never be derived from asserting your constitutional rights. For example, it is impossible for your refusal to give consent to a warrantless vehicle search to be the justification for a warrantless vehicle search. (Otherwise, we wouldn't have any rights, right? Right.)

Now, that's all good in theory, but if you're stopped for a second by a cop at night walking around and you just don't want to give out your name for gigs, I'm not promising you he's going to like it or that he's going to follow the law and leave you alone. It's very likely that he doesn't know what your rights are and that he'll intimidate you into giving him your info.

Big ups to the nice cop in the video.

cops actually have the right to demand a person within thier jurisdiction produce identification. refusal is grounds to be detained.

OUMallen
7/25/2011, 05:47 PM
cops actually have the right to demand a person within thier jurisdiction produce identification. refusal is grounds to be detained.

I don't think this is true...? They can't make you speak to a cop, and they can't make you carry a government ID if you're not doing anything you need it for....link me? (Totally admit I could be wrong!)

87sooner
7/25/2011, 06:03 PM
I don't have a Concealed Carry Permit. I won't ever have one either. If I get pulled over, and a cop asks me "do you have a gun?" I'd go "yes" but I ain't gonna tell him if he doesn't ask. Personally, I believe a CCP does more harm than good. If you've gotta ever use your gun, nobody cares if you have a permit cause the permit only allows you to carry it, not use it.


you're right....you don't need a permit to use a gun...all you need is a situation...
if that situation arises...and you use your gun...and you don't have a cwl....you could be charged with a crime..




In all the times I've been pulled over, only one time did a cop ask me that question. It was a State Trooper in Missouri. Why did he ask me? Cause the .357 had slid out a little under the front seat and was sitting between my feet. He goes "is that gun loaded?" I go "yes, it's always loaded." He goes "isn't Oklahoma a concealed carry state?" and I go "sure, I think so." He asked me to unload it and put it in the rear of the Suburban I was driving. I did, and after he called in on my license plate and crap he let me go with a warning for doing 75 in a 65.

you broke the law by carrying a loaded handgun in your vehicle..
next time you might not get off so lucky...

C&CDean
7/25/2011, 07:31 PM
you're right....you don't need a permit to use a gun...all you need is a situation...
if that situation arises...and you use your gun...and you don't have a cwl....you could be charged with a crime..

Huh? If you have a CCP and you use your gun...OMG, you might be charged with a crime....you have no point here.



you broke the law by carrying a loaded handgun in your vehicle..
next time you might not get off so lucky...

Sure I did/do. Every day. IDGAS. Of course I don't spend my time getting pulled over any more (Lord knows I used to), so I ain't real worried about it either way.

Blue
7/25/2011, 07:35 PM
Those tax collectors gotta get their quota. As the economy gets worse, the chances of you getting pulled over for not having a sixth brake light go up.

C&CDean
7/25/2011, 07:37 PM
Meh. Cops don't worry me at all. Criminals/crackheads/tweakers/losers/thieves/murderers/rapists/drunk drivers/etc. do. Sometimes even the odd roofer kinda makes me freaky...

87sooner
7/25/2011, 07:41 PM
Huh? If you have a CCP and you use your gun...OMG, you might be charged with a crime....you have no point here.




Sure I did/do. Every day. IDGAS. Of course I don't spend my time getting pulled over any more (Lord knows I used to), so I ain't real worried about it either way.

maybe i should have said you SHOULD be charged with a crime if you use your weapon and you don't have a cwl...

not much more to discuss...you don't gas about the law...

Wishboned
7/30/2011, 05:51 PM
There's a second video out now

http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-canton-police-officer-second-video-txt,0,6002245.story

GKeeper316
7/30/2011, 06:57 PM
i hope that cop gets run over by a truck.

C&CDean
7/30/2011, 07:10 PM
not much more to discuss...you don't gas about the law...

Wrong. I just don't care about the CCP horse****. I was fingerprinted as a teenage criminal. I was fingerprinted as a soldier in the US Army. They have my prints. IDGAS about the latest fad in being a "legal citizen."

OutlandTrophy
7/30/2011, 07:32 PM
For me, the risk reward of having a CCP and carrying without one makes it clear to me. Maybe not everyone else but for me the risk of carrying without just isn't worth it.

C&CDean
7/30/2011, 07:38 PM
For me, the risk reward of having a CCP and carrying without one makes it clear to me. Maybe not everyone else but for me the risk of carrying without just isn't worth it.

So, what's the risk?

OutlandTrophy
7/30/2011, 07:40 PM
jailtime. dealing with a cop like the one in this thread.

Those are risks to me.

OutlandTrophy
7/30/2011, 07:43 PM
I think the real question is what is the reward for carrying a concealed weapon without a permit to do so?

C&CDean
7/30/2011, 07:44 PM
I think the real question is what is the reward for carrying a concealed weapon without a permit to do so?

The reward? Being protected when some POS tries to gangster your ***. DOH.

OutlandTrophy
7/30/2011, 07:44 PM
you can't do the same with the permit?

C&CDean
7/30/2011, 08:02 PM
Sure. Except when I leave his POS carcass in the lot nobody knows I was there.

If you need a ccp to feel comfy, go ahead on. It doesn't do a damn thing but make you very visible to the cops. Especially if you have to use it.

OutlandTrophy
7/30/2011, 08:13 PM
I disagree.

As a CCP holder I will answer far fewer questions at a shooting than a non CCP holder will. I'm sure the non CCP holder will have much higher legal bills afterwards than I will as well.

C&CDean
7/30/2011, 08:16 PM
I disagree.

As a CCP holder I will answer far fewer questions at a shooting than a non CCP holder will. I'm sure the non CCP holder will have much higher legal bills afterwards than I will as well.

Whatever you say.

I think Ersland had a CCP...

oudavid1
7/30/2011, 08:57 PM
HOLD THE PHONE

If there are two people with a weapon, and the calmer one isnt a police officer, there is your problem. See ya.

GKeeper316
7/30/2011, 09:20 PM
Whatever you say.

I think Ersland had a CCP...

as an employee of the business, he didn't need a ccp.

C&CDean
7/30/2011, 09:21 PM
as an employee of the business, he didn't need a ccp.

OK? Do you have a point?

OutlandTrophy
7/30/2011, 09:30 PM
I think his point is that we were discussing CCPs and you trotted Jerome Ersland out there and we're not really sure what he has to do with this conversation.

OutlandTrophy
7/30/2011, 09:30 PM
punkin

C&CDean
7/30/2011, 09:42 PM
He had a ccp. Did it do him any good?

C&CDean
7/30/2011, 09:42 PM
punkin.

OutlandTrophy
7/30/2011, 09:44 PM
He had a ccp. Did it do him any good?

was he arrested for carrying a concealed weapon?

GKeeper316
7/30/2011, 09:47 PM
He had a ccp. Did it do him any good?

you don't need a ccp if your boss says you can carry at work.

ersland's mistake was grabbing another gun and shooting a kid 5 times in the stomach that he'd already shot once in the head, but didn't kill.

mistake in the DA's eyes anyway. not in mine. little bastard got what he deserved, even if he was functionally retarded.

i hope you guys in ok county vote prater out of office.

C&CDean
7/30/2011, 09:47 PM
was he arrested for carrying a concealed weapon?

I think your point has been lost.

Carrying a weapon isn't a crime. ccp or not. Sure, if some over-zealous cop wanted to arrest someone for carrying one without a ccp I guess they could, but responsible gun toting folks normally don't have to worry about it.

Of course using the weapon just might be an arrestable offense, and in this case, having a ccp doesn't help you one iota.

GKeeper316
7/30/2011, 09:52 PM
I think your point has been lost.

Carrying a weapon isn't a crime. ccp or not. Sure, if some over-zealous cop wanted to arrest someone for carrying one without a ccp I guess they could, but responsible gun toting folks normally don't have to worry about it.

Of course using the weapon just might be an arrestable offense, and in this case, having a ccp doesn't help you one iota.

hell man, pointing a firearm at someone is a crime. found that out when i was a kid and some dude wouldn't leave my horses alone. he wasn't on my property, but i didn't want him feeding anything to my horses, so i grabbed dad's shotgun and told him to move along. 20 minutes later a sherriff's deputy came and made me call dad home from work (he was still flying at the time. he wasn't pleased).

OutlandTrophy
7/30/2011, 09:55 PM
Carrying a loaded weapon, concealed is a crime. Carrying an unloaded weapon is stupid.

C&CDean
7/30/2011, 10:02 PM
Carrying a loaded weapon, concealed is a crime. Carrying an unloaded weapon is stupid.

Speeding, driving intoxicated, fudging a red light, and jacking your little wee wee are all crimes. Only if you get caught though. You go ahead and get fingerprinted/photographed and have the world know you have a ccp. Me? Not so much.

OutlandTrophy
7/30/2011, 10:07 PM
that goes back to the risk/reward I mentioned hours ago. To me it's not worth it. To you it is.

I also have a driver license. For the exact same reason I have a CCP.

C&CDean
7/30/2011, 10:08 PM
that goes back to the risk/reward I mentioned hours ago. To me it's not worth it. To you it is.

I also have a driver license. For the exact same reason I have a CCP.

Well OK then. Did you learn a lot in your class? About as much as you did when you took the drivers license test? Good. You are a model citizen and are to be commended.

OutlandTrophy
7/30/2011, 10:18 PM
I'm glad that I have your approval to be legal. I did learn a few things in the class but not as much as I learned here http://gunsite.com . I didn't learn much at driver's Ed in HS but i had fun at the OSU-OKC driving course.