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MR2-Sooner86
7/10/2011, 06:35 PM
Want to know why your party is dying? When sane people see the GOP, they see Jerry Falwell wannabes and nobody wants that in government.

You're some of the biggest hypocritical idiots around. You claim to be for the "party of small government" yet you have no problem shoving your view down somebody's throat.

Bachmann pledges to ban ‘all forms of pornography’ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/07/08/bachmann-pledges-to-ban-all-forms-of-pornography/)

Santorum signs pro-marriage pledge (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/09/santorum-signs-pro-marriage-pledge-promising-personal-fidelity/#more-166739)

Here is the pledge (http://images.minnesotaindependent.com/The-Family-Leader-Presidential-Pledge.pdf) that you can read that both Bachmann and Santorum have signed.
It's “The Marriage Vow – A Declaration of Dependence Upon Marriage and Family,” which is the creation of The Family Leader, an Iowa-based conservative Christian group, and its CEO, Bob Vander Plaats. Basically, it's a very anti-gay/anti-gay marriage/anti-divorce/anti-pornography/anti-abortion/anti-prostitution/anti-anything that might destroy a family pledge.

The real nugget that got taken out (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58631.html) was this right here.


Slavery had a disastrous impact on African-American families, yet sadly a child born into slavery in 1860 was more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household than was an African-American baby born after the election of the USA’s first African-American President

That's not the smartest thing to say. In fact, it's one of the stupidest things to say.

What do people care about right now? They care about the economy and jobs. Do you really think people will vote in somebody they are afraid will go on a moralist crusade the second they get into office when they think they should focus on the economy? No, they will not.

I can go out about the failed War on Drugs which would save us around $35 billion a year from the federal budget in times when we're looking to help the debt and deficit spending. We know though that won't happen because that'd be too logical, and it's also a nice way to sidestep the 4th amendment so that's too much power to give up.

It gets even better.


"If you are looking at being a leader of our great country... we would like to have you pledge personal fidelity to your own spouse and a respect for the marital bonds of others," The Family Leader CEO Bob Vander Plaats said Thursday.

So shouldn't we be respecting gay couples that have already married? Oh that's right, Jesus doesn't like it so we have to focus on getting rid of that.

If you keep this up you might actually scare people into voting for Obama. He'll ruin the economy by social means but to some it's better than a Christian Taliban arresting somebody for masturbating (http://www.dumpbachmann.com/2010/09/michele-bachmann-backs-anti.html), going to war with every "Godless" country that looks at us funny (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/rick-santorum-the-crusades-get-a-bad-rap.php), and increasing "security" all over the country (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/14/politics/main20031928.shtml) to stop the terrorist from "getting us."

sappstuf
7/10/2011, 06:39 PM
Want to know why your party is dying? When sane people see the GOP, they see Jerry Falwell wannabes and nobody wants that in government.

You're some of the biggest hypocritical idiots around. You claim to be for the "party of small government" yet you have no problem shoving your view down somebody's throat.

Bachmann pledges to ban ‘all forms of pornography’ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/07/08/bachmann-pledges-to-ban-all-forms-of-pornography/)

Santorum signs pro-marriage pledge (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/09/santorum-signs-pro-marriage-pledge-promising-personal-fidelity/#more-166739)

Here is the pledge (http://images.minnesotaindependent.com/The-Family-Leader-Presidential-Pledge.pdf) that you can read that both Bachmann and Santorum have signed.
It's “The Marriage Vow – A Declaration of Dependence Upon Marriage and Family,” which is the creation of The Family Leader, an Iowa-based conservative Christian group, and its CEO, Bob Vander Plaats. Basically, it's a very anti-gay/anti-gay marriage/anti-divorce/anti-pornography/anti-abortion/anti-prostitution/anti-anything that might destroy a family pledge.

The real nugget that got taken out (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58631.html) was this right here.



That's not the smartest thing to say. In fact, it's one of the stupidest things to say.

What do people care about right now? They care about the economy and jobs. Do you really think people will vote in somebody they are afraid will go on a moralist crusade the second they get into office when they think they should focus on the economy? No, they will not.

I can go out about the failed War on Drugs which would save us around $35 billion a year from the federal budget in times when we're looking to help the debt and deficit spending. We know though that won't happen because that'd be too logical, and it's also a nice way to sidestep the 4th amendment so that's too much power to give up.

It gets even better.



So shouldn't we be respecting gay couples that have already married? Oh that's right, Jesus doesn't like it so we have to focus on getting rid of that.

If you keep this up you might actually scare people into voting for Obama. He'll ruin the economy by social means but to some it's better than a Christian Taliban arresting somebody for masturbating (http://www.dumpbachmann.com/2010/09/michele-bachmann-backs-anti.html), going to war with every "Godless" country that looks at us funny (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/rick-santorum-the-crusades-get-a-bad-rap.php), and increasing "security" all over the country (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/14/politics/main20031928.shtml) to stop the terrorist from "getting us."

Remind me which party had historic gains in the House and across the country in 2010?

At the rate, they are "dying" and will be running the Senate after 2012 and very possibly have the White House..

SicEmBaylor
7/10/2011, 06:40 PM
+1

Memtig14
7/10/2011, 06:40 PM
That's not the smartest thing to say. In fact, it's one of the stupidest things to say.


Sometimes the truth hurts.

MR2-Sooner86
7/10/2011, 06:48 PM
Remind me which party had historic gains in the House and across the country in 2010?

At the rate, they are "dying" and will be running the Senate after 2012 and very possibly have the White House..

Why did people send them there in 2010? I'll remind you again, it wasn't for abortion, gay marriage, or any other morality legislation. They were sent there for the economy and jobs. As much as the GOP thinks their "morality" had a play in it, it didn't.

87sooner
7/10/2011, 06:53 PM
legislating sin is a losing proposition...
but it's nice to know some in the gop still care....
i'll be happy if they at least defund some of this crap you dems seem to love...abortion/etc...

so you're saying as long as everyone has a job....you don't mind if porn/abortion/prostitution/divorce/drugs/alcohol/gambling/****sucking run rampant.....

SoCaliSooner
7/10/2011, 06:59 PM
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad267/jmj542/2jxutv.gif

sappstuf
7/10/2011, 06:59 PM
Why did people send them there in 2010? I'll remind you again, it wasn't for abortion, gay marriage, or any other morality legislation. They were sent there for the economy and jobs. As much as the GOP thinks their "morality" had a play in it, it didn't.

What office does Rick Santorum hold again?

As for Michele Bachmann, her constituents probably did elect her in part for her positions on abortion, gay marriage, ect... That is their business.

pphilfran
7/10/2011, 07:06 PM
Funny how easy it is to call out the fringe on the opposite side while ignoring the fringe radicals on your side...

MR2-Sooner86
7/10/2011, 07:18 PM
legislating sin is a losing proposition...
but it's nice to know some in the gop still care....
i'll be happy if they at least defund some of this crap you dems seem to love...abortion/etc...

I'm not a democrat but if you'd like to keep jumping to conclusions, go ahead.


so you're saying as long as everyone has a job....you don't mind if porn/abortion/prostitution/divorce/drugs/alcohol/gambling/****sucking run rampant.....

DING DING DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

Abortion, it's law, the supreme court said so, and it won't be overturned anytime soon. I have no problem with partial or late-term abortion bans but that first trimester is where the debate is at and won't be resolved soon.
Besides, if you believe conception is when the sperm meets the egg, guess you're for banning the morning-after-pill huh?

Pornography is protected by the first amendment.

Prostitution is telling people what they can and cannot do with their own body.

Divorce, how does that affect me? It doesn't unless it's my parents. Is it my fault people are idiots when it comes to marriage? No.

Drugs/alcohol is telling people what they can and cannot do with their bodies.

Gambling is telling people what they can and cannot do with their money.

You see, either you're for that thing called "freedom" or you're not. So when you say, "Land of the Free" you're either a liar or a hypocrite.

Take your pick, I'm in no rush to find out which one you are.


What office does Rick Santorum hold again?

What does that have to do with him running for President? He was a Senator but what does that have to do with now? Sure, he has no power to force his ideals onto people but if he becomes President he sure will.


As for Michele Bachmann, her constituents probably did elect her in part for her positions on abortion, gay marriage, ect... That is their business.

Good for them, the rest of the country sure won't.


Funny how easy it is to call out the fringe on the opposite side while ignoring the fringe radicals on your side...

Oh I've called on the looney-left many times but that doesn't give the radical-right a free pass.

sappstuf
7/10/2011, 07:19 PM
Funny how easy it is to call out the fringe on the opposite side while ignoring the fringe radicals on your side...

Dems keep campaign promises. Repubs are ideologues...

sappstuf
7/10/2011, 07:30 PM
What does that have to do with him running for President? He was a Senator but what does that have to do with now? Sure, he has no power to force his ideals onto people but if he becomes President he sure will.

And if he grows feathers and a bill he will be a duck....

tommieharris91
7/10/2011, 08:22 PM
Well, now I know who the religious righties here are...

AlboSooner
7/10/2011, 08:24 PM
The GOP is not dying. It has a great chance to beat Obama in the upcoming elections.

tcrb
7/10/2011, 08:54 PM
Dems keep campaign promises. Repubs are ideologues...

You forgot to add the sarcasm icon. But I LOL'd anyway. ;)

JohnnyMack
7/10/2011, 09:14 PM
The GOP allowing Ralph Reed back under its tent tells me all I need to know about it as an organization. I left the Republican party because of the fringe right wing loons just like this Vander nut.

I can't tell you how disheartening it is to see the way Romney and Bachmann raise money and lead in polls all the while Ron Paul languishes.

87sooner
7/10/2011, 09:22 PM
The GOP is not dying. It has a great chance to beat Obama in the upcoming elections.

the gop doesn't elect the president...
neither do the dems..
the independents in the middle hold the cards....and they definitely vote their pocketbooks first and foremost...
and it's not lookin good for the big o in 2012...

but at least the gays are better off...

soonerhubs
7/10/2011, 09:22 PM
The GOP allowing Ralph Reed back under its tent tells me all I need to know about it as an organization. I left the Republican party because of the fringe right wing loons just like this Vander nut.

I can't tell you how disheartening it is to see the way Romney and Bachmann raise money and lead in polls all the while Ron Paul languishes.

Agreed. It's as if personal liberty isnt valued by many of the GOP. Some idiots pimp reducing govt only in areas THEY feel are irrelevant while growing govt by legislating morality.

JohnnyMack
7/10/2011, 09:59 PM
Agreed. It's as if personal liberty isnt valued by many of the GOP. Some idiots pimp reducing govt only in areas THEY feel are irrelevant while growing govt by legislating morality.

Hubler wants to buy beer in Oklahoma on Sunday!!!!

At least, that's the way I interpret your post.

;)

Blue
7/10/2011, 10:14 PM
You should direct your anger here...

http://news.yahoo.com/geithner-says-hard-times-continue-many-150523958.html;_ylt=Assgz7_pvpmxyTasuVoorwis0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTNyOHA3bGVpBGNjb2RlA3dlaWdodGVkY3QEcGtnA2 M0OTU4YzM4LTFmODktM2Q3NC1iZGIzLTM2ZmE5OTAwMzQxZQRw b3MDNwRzZWMDTW9zdFBvcHVsYXIgRlAEdmVyAzQ5MGM5NjMwLW FiMDYtMTFlMC1iYjliLTZiMTZkNTIxNmE0OA--;_ylg=X3oDMTFpNzk0NjhtBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

Good to know we avoided a bigger crisis. Thank you my saviors. You got your billions in bailouts though right?

****ing liars keep digging the hole deeper and we are stuck to wallow in the pit.

MR2-Sooner86
7/10/2011, 10:20 PM
You should direct your anger here...

http://news.yahoo.com/geithner-says-hard-times-continue-many-150523958.html;_ylt=Assgz7_pvpmxyTasuVoorwis0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTNyOHA3bGVpBGNjb2RlA3dlaWdodGVkY3QEcGtnA2 M0OTU4YzM4LTFmODktM2Q3NC1iZGIzLTM2ZmE5OTAwMzQxZQRw b3MDNwRzZWMDTW9zdFBvcHVsYXIgRlAEdmVyAzQ5MGM5NjMwLW FiMDYtMTFlMC1iYjliLTZiMTZkNTIxNmE0OA--;_ylg=X3oDMTFpNzk0NjhtBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

Good to know we avoided a bigger crisis. Thank you my saviors. You got your billions in bailouts though right?

****ing liars keep digging the hole deeper and we are stuck to wallow in the pit.

Turbotax can eat a bag of dicks.

picasso
7/10/2011, 10:30 PM
Dems keep campaign promises. Repubs are ideologues...

That's a joke right?

87sooner
7/10/2011, 10:58 PM
Agreed. It's as if personal liberty isnt valued by many of the GOP. Some idiots pimp reducing govt only in areas THEY feel are irrelevant while growing govt by legislating morality.

how exactly does govt grow when "legislating morality"?

GKeeper316
7/10/2011, 11:49 PM
how exactly does govt grow when "legislating morality"?

federal vice cops like the DEA, for starters.

mgsooner
7/10/2011, 11:58 PM
I'm tired of hearing people froth at the mouth over In-N-Out burger. At the end of the day it's still a god damn fast food hamburger.

MrJimBeam
7/11/2011, 05:53 AM
the gop doesn't elect the president...
neither do the dems..
the independents in the middle hold the cards....and they definitely vote their pocketbooks first and foremost...
and it's not lookin good for the big o in 2012...

but at least the gays are better off...

How do you figure, they're still gay aren't they?

sappstuf
7/11/2011, 06:37 AM
That's a joke right?

More like sarcasm.... ;)

ggXmKPMaHMo

GrapevineSooner
7/11/2011, 07:32 AM
federal vice cops like the DEA, for starters.

And then there's the FCC crackdown which began when society fell apart because it saw Janet Jackson's nipple at the Super Bowl.

soonerhubs
7/11/2011, 07:39 AM
how exactly does govt grow when "legislating morality"?

Pardon me. I should have clarified that I believe that legislating morality grows the power of government and restricts our personal liberties.

Exactly how? Well... as was previously posted, if someone isn't able to buy alcohol on Sunday, this restricts their right to trade. Perhaps I'm not learned on this topic, but I struggle to see any logical reason for this restriction on liberty beyond the point that a majority of the population wants it that way.

Majority rule is fine in a Democracy, but I don't find it to be ideal in a Republic. Again, this is my opinion, and I'm sure like too many other opinions of mine, it's flawed to a certain extent.

To me it's a delicate balancing act that gets very complex though. I for one can argue that shrinking the government is a great idea giving us more freedom, but then on the other hand I may think it's correct to make it illegal to text while driving. At face value, I am a hypocrite, but then I'll rationalize that it's because it enhances public safety.

soonerhubs
7/11/2011, 07:41 AM
Hubler wants to buy beer in Oklahoma on Sunday!!!!

At least, that's the way I interpret your post.

;)

Can't a Mormon get his beer in peace?!?!?! ;)

jk the sooner fan
7/11/2011, 08:14 AM
as a member of the "religious right", i'd just like to wave and say hello to this lovely thread

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Palin_waving-RNC-20080903_cropped.jpg

The Profit
7/11/2011, 08:35 AM
as a member of the "religious right", i'd just like to wave and say hello to this lovely thread

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Palin_waving-RNC-20080903_cropped.jpg




vaginal warts

picasso
7/11/2011, 08:41 AM
More like sarcasm.... ;)

ggXmKPMaHMo

ahhh:)

picasso
7/11/2011, 08:41 AM
vaginal warts

So what? You have to accept folks the way they are you know.

Coexist bitches.

jk the sooner fan
7/11/2011, 08:44 AM
So what? You have to accept folks the way they are you know.

Coexist bitches.

they're not nearly as tolerant as they'd like us to think they are ;)

OUMallen
7/11/2011, 09:05 AM
legislating sin is a losing proposition...
but it's nice to know some in the gop still care....
i'll be happy if they at least defund some of this crap you dems seem to love...abortion/etc...

so you're saying as long as everyone has a job....you don't mind if porn/abortion/prostitution/divorce/drugs/alcohol/gambling/****sucking run rampant.....

You're saying DIVORCE is something the government needs to prioritize? :rolleyes:

87sooner
7/11/2011, 09:40 AM
You're saying DIVORCE is something the government needs to prioritize? :rolleyes:

if there are govt policies/regulations/laws that contribute to divorce.....they should be eliminated... (not saying there are...... mr2 mentioned divorce so i just included it in my list)...

Sooner98
7/11/2011, 11:41 AM
Curious as to why some feel the GOP should forget about social issues, but threaten to take away someone's "right" to abort a baby, and the Dems/lefties will erupt into a fit of apoplectic hysteria.

As far as the GOP "dying", elections will never be won or lost by what social issue the candidates are for or against - they will always be decided by two things - economics and national security.

Position Limit
7/11/2011, 11:52 AM
a big reason the GOP is struggling is because the havent tapped any new sources of fear or hate. the gay card has been played, but i suppose they will once again dig it up. the big gov scare is part of their problem also. their tax policies havent worked for 40 years. they need to good batch of hate to dish up. maybe they can reclaim themselves as the moral majority or something. i dont know.

GrapevineSooner
7/11/2011, 12:07 PM
a big reason the GOP is struggling is because the havent tapped any new sources of fear or hate. the gay card has been played, but i suppose they will once again dig it up. the big gov scare is part of their problem also. their tax policies havent worked for 40 years. they need to good batch of hate to dish up. maybe they can reclaim themselves as the moral majority or something. i dont know.

It's a good thing your side never engages in this tactic.

Mongo
7/11/2011, 12:08 PM
thanks for the laugh Position

Tulsa_Fireman
7/11/2011, 12:16 PM
Want to know why your party is dying? Blah blah blah, blah blah, my political perspective is better than yours, you're a moron, blah blah blah.

Ninjas kill people.

The Profit
7/11/2011, 12:17 PM
So what? You have to accept folks the way they are you know.

Coexist bitches.




You're right. I need to get one of those fancy bumper stickers.

Position Limit
7/11/2011, 12:20 PM
It's a good thing your side never engages in this tactic.

oh the left has their share of foibles, it's just that the right's are too easy to pick out. the topic of the thread is about the GOP and religious right. i'm just trying to stay on topic. i dont have a side by the way. anymore.

jk the sooner fan
7/11/2011, 12:21 PM
i dont have a side by the way. anymore.


right...

DIB
7/11/2011, 12:22 PM
right...

left...

Turd_Ferguson
7/11/2011, 12:22 PM
Left...fixed


damn you dib!

Mongo
7/11/2011, 12:23 PM
fixed

dont worry. DIB always sneaks in the same joke right before I post too.

he's an ******* like that

TitoMorelli
7/11/2011, 12:26 PM
So which side is trying to take away your incandescent light bulbs? Or telling you how much water your toilet tank can hold? Or how much your shower head can produce per minute? Or whether your kids can have a Happy Meal?




(translation: I'm too old for hookers and marijuana makes me nauseous.)

Turd_Ferguson
7/11/2011, 12:27 PM
dont worry. DIB always sneaks in the same joke right before I post too.

he's an ******* like thatI had no idea DIB was iranian...

pphilfran
7/11/2011, 12:29 PM
So which side is trying to take away your incandescent light bulbs? Or telling you how much water your toilet tank can hold? Or how much your shower head can produce per minute? Or whether your kids can have a Happy Meal?




(translation: I'm too old for hookers and marijuana makes me nauseous.)

Uh...they ain't trying...other than the Happy Meal, they did...

87sooner
7/11/2011, 12:30 PM
So which side is trying to take away your incandescent light bulbs? Or telling you how much water your toilet tank can hold? Or how much your shower head can produce per minute? Or whether your kids can have a Happy Meal?




good points...
also...telling us how much dust can be in the air...

The Maestro
7/11/2011, 12:40 PM
The attempt to legislate morality has ALWAYS bugged me about the GOP...even when I was a believer myself. Not their place...and shouldn't ever come into government decisions.

I agree with whoever said it...jk, I believe. Sad to see the Bachmann's of the world moving up and Ron Paul moving back. People are idiots. Namely American voters and their enjoyment for fish hooks in their cheeks expecting a yummy worm.

landrun
7/11/2011, 12:59 PM
Agreed. It's as if personal liberty isnt valued by many of the GOP. Some idiots pimp reducing govt only in areas THEY feel are irrelevant while growing govt by legislating morality.

This legislating morality objection is silly. And you hear it all the time.
The fact is, that's what laws are. Moral constraints of one person (an elected official) forcing what they believe to be right on the masses. Every law ever passed does just that. No exceptions.

From someone telling you how fast you can drive on the street in front of your house, to the abolition of slavery, that's all laws are and that's all lawmakers do. They force what they believe to be right on the masses.

The political position of the lawmaker, left or right doesn't matter.

Before slavery was abolished, the moral people of this country were forced to tolerate it. Afterward, the rich plantation owners were forced to let their slaves go and find another way to make profits on their products. You're forced to pay your taxes. Whether you think it is right or wrong, too little or too much is irrelevant. Someone forced their values on you by law. There is no law that is an exception. None.

landrun
7/11/2011, 01:00 PM
The attempt to legislate morality has ALWAYS bugged me about the GOP...even when I was a believer myself. Not their place...and shouldn't ever come into government decisions.

I agree with whoever said it...jk, I believe. Sad to see the Bachmann's of the world moving up and Ron Paul moving back. People are idiots. Namely American voters and their enjoyment for fish hooks in their cheeks expecting a yummy worm.

Basically what really bugs you is that you disagree with the social positions of the GOP. The legislating of morality is nonsense. Sounds good though. :D

DIB
7/11/2011, 01:06 PM
Basically what really bugs you is that you disagree with the social positions of the GOP. The legislating of morality is nonsense. Sounds good though. :D

I would argue that any law that restricts personal liberty is inherently immoral. Some call it legislating morality. I just call it violating the letter and spirit of the constitution.

SoCaliSooner
7/11/2011, 01:15 PM
So which side is trying to take away your incandescent light bulbs? Or telling you how much water your toilet tank can hold? Or how much your shower head can produce per minute? Or whether your kids can have a Happy Meal?




(translation: I'm too old for hookers and marijuana makes me nauseous.)


good points...
also...telling us how much dust can be in the air...

We in California are being told what TV's we can buy and many types of flat screens will be outlawed.

My inlaws own a company and they have approximately 50 forklifts. About 15 years ago they were essentially forced to convert from diesel to propane. They weren't violating any EPA laws...however, the Air Quality Management District decided diesel was too dirty. So they switched to propane.

Propane was the new clean fuel until two years ago when a different agency, the California Air Resources Board decided that all propane forklifts now needed "scrubbers", sold by the state and installed by state licensed installers at a cost of $2,000 per forklift. Total cost of over $100,000.

Look out....all this stuff gets started out here and Dem'd onto the national level.

OhU1
7/11/2011, 01:17 PM
Propane was the new clean fuel until two years ago when a different agency, the California Air Resources Board decided that all propane forklifts now needed "scrubbers"

http://forums.mycotopia.net/attachments/general-discussions/195635-hank-hill-hh.jpg

87sooner
7/11/2011, 01:18 PM
We in California are being told what TV's we can buy and many types of flat screens will be outlawed.

My inlaws own a company and they have approximately 50 forklifts. About 15 years ago they were essentially forced to convert from diesel to propane. They weren't violating any EPA laws...however, the Air Quality Management District decided diesel was too dirty. So they switched to propane.

Propane was the new clean fuel until two years ago when a different agency, the California Air Resources Board decided that all propane forklifts now needed "scrubbers", sold by the state and installed by state licensed installers at a cost of $2,000 per forklift. Total cost of over $100,000.

Look out....all this stuff gets started out here and Dem'd onto the national level.

but you see.....all this is for our own good and health and safety....as opposed to those hateful bible thumping gop wackos....;)

Blue
7/11/2011, 01:21 PM
The attempt to legislate morality has ALWAYS bugged me about the GOP...even when I was a believer myself. Not their place...and shouldn't ever come into government decisions.

I agree with whoever said it...jk, I believe. Sad to see the Bachmann's of the world moving up and Ron Paul moving back. People are idiots. Namely American voters and their enjoyment for fish hooks in their cheeks expecting a yummy worm.

It seems to me that the media are pushing these people. I haven't met one person that would vote for Bachman or palin. I would vote for Paul in a heartbeat.

landrun
7/11/2011, 01:24 PM
I would argue that any law that restricts personal liberty is inherently immoral. Some call it legislating morality. I just call it violating the letter and spirit of the constitution.

What about speed limits on our interstates, highways and school zones?
What about a law abolishing slavery?
etc...

I'm not being a jerk, I'm just trying to point out that even to the purist libertarian, that is very near impossible.

At some point someone has to say x-y-z just isn't allowed.

I think that's the whole point of political campaigns. You want to try to put the politicians through the ringer so you can discover what they REALLY believe. Because one of two things will happen (maybe both). Either our politicians will do what they honestly believe is right and good and pass laws in that regard. Or, they'll be totally corrupt and will just pass laws that please the highest bidder.

87sooner
7/11/2011, 01:24 PM
It seems to me that the media are pushing these people. I haven't met one person that would vote for Bachman or palin. I would vote for Paul in a heartbeat.

the media are not pushing bachman or palin..
the media will push whoever the elites tell them to push..
we will know who that is AFTER iowa....
last time...after huckabee won iowa....the media/gop establishment went full bore to destroy huck and push mccain down the voters' throats...

Pricetag
7/11/2011, 01:26 PM
You're right. I need to get one of those fancy bumper stickers.
Here you go:

http://shirtoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/coexiist.jpg

87sooner
7/11/2011, 01:26 PM
What about speed limits on our interstates, highways and school zones?
What about a law abolishing slavery?
etc...

I'm not being a jerk, I'm just trying to point out that even to the purist libertarian, that is very near impossible.

At some point someone has to say x-y-z just isn't allowed.

I think that's the whole point of political campaigns. You want to try to put the politicians through the ringer so you can discover what they REALLY believe. Because one of two things will happen (maybe both). Either our politicians will do what they honestly believe is right and good and pass laws in that regard. Or, they'll be totally corrupt and will just pass laws that please the highest bidder.

i believe this to be the case with most politicians...

DIB
7/11/2011, 01:33 PM
What about speed limits on our interstates, highways and school zones?
What about a law abolishing slavery?
etc...

I'm not being a jerk, I'm just trying to point out that even to the purist libertarian, that is very near impossible.

At some point someone has to say x-y-z just isn't allowed.

I think that's the whole point of political campaigns. You want to try to put the politicians through the ringer so you can discover what they REALLY believe. Because one of two things will happen (maybe both). Either our politicians will do what they honestly believe is right and good and pass laws in that regard. Or, they'll be totally corrupt and will just pass laws that please the highest bidder.

Slavery was a gross violation of personal liberty, of course it should have been abolished. Speeding on the highway can take away the rights of other individuals to live. That is wildly different than the laws that both parties try to pass to restrict freedom. How would allowing gay marriage and legalization of marijuana restrict the rights of others? How would letting people use what ever light bulbs and toilets that they see fit restrict the rights of others?

landrun
7/11/2011, 01:48 PM
Slavery was a gross violation of personal liberty, of course it should have been abolished. Speeding on the highway can take away the rights of other individuals to live. That is wildly different than the laws that both parties try to pass to restrict freedom. How would allowing gay marriage and legalization of marijuana restrict the rights of others? How would letting people use what ever light bulbs and toilets that they see fit restrict the rights of others?

Exactly! That's the whole debate.

It's how you look at it. How can you justify abortion? You frame it in the name of 'the right to privacy'. Just as slavery was justified in the name of 'the right to own property'. I will argue that slavery had nothing to do with the right to own property and killing a baby has nothing to do with the right to privacy. I'll bet if you're a libertarian (just guessing) you wouldn't agree with me on the abortion issue. So, you' be opposed to a law protecting the rights of the unborn. Because TO YOU, such a law would really be a violation of a woman's right to an abortion.

I could argue that legalizing marijuana would take away the right of other individuals to live - just as you used that argument to justify passing of a speed limit law. And... I can give you stats and indisputable evidence that alcohol related accidents account for 40% of all vehicle related deaths. Then someone could argue that we should abolish drinking using your logic to pass speed limit laws.

Every issue has this problem.

In the end, you have lawmakers determining who's rights will be violated and when. And they justify it the same way you did to pass a speed limit law. Every law passed forces someone's morality on the masses. No exceptions.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
7/11/2011, 02:20 PM
Funny how easy it is to call out the fringe on the opposite side while ignoring the fringe radicals on your side...Socialism/Marxism is much worse than the other side's pushing for more moral behavior. Buhbye, Beary-O.

soonerhubs
7/11/2011, 02:22 PM
I feel that Landrun has made an exceptional point.


I would suggest that my beef with the GOP is that their priorities don't match mine when it comes to enhancing what I consider to be my personal liberty.

DIB
7/11/2011, 02:23 PM
Socialism/Marxism is much worse than the other side's pushing for more moral behavior. Buhbye, Beary-O.

One wants to restrict economic freedom and the other wants to restrict personal freedom. They are two sides of the same coin.

The Maestro
7/11/2011, 02:25 PM
Basically what really bugs you is that you disagree with the social positions of the GOP. The legislating of morality is nonsense. Sounds good though. :D

Not true. I agree with MOST of the social positions of the GOP. I am not talking about social positions, anyway. I am talking about MORALITY! You can't make laws to make people act better or do the things you consider right from a moral code.

You use the example of speeding. Bad example. That is a public safety issue. Having buttsecks with someone of the same sex is not a public safety issue. Abortion, prayer in school, where we place "In God We Trust". Religious issues are really what I am talking about. Leave it out...it has no place in matters of making laws. We have bigger fish to fry, namely the economy.

If I heard someone in my district running for office and mentioning ANYTHING other than cutting government spending, finding ways to create jobs or things of a financial nature, I would vote against them for being unable to focus on the real issues. Making flag burnin' a felony ain't a priority...

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
7/11/2011, 02:38 PM
One wants to restrict economic freedom and the other wants to restrict personal freedom. They are two sides of the same coin.attempts to censor free speech will never fly anymore. Socialism/authoritarian control is already happening under the democrats, and if Obear is elected, we will suffer PERMANENT damage. I think you really(and should, at least) know that.

DIB
7/11/2011, 02:45 PM
attempts to censor free speech will never fly anymore. Socialism/authoritarian control is already happening under the democrats, and if Obear is elected, we will suffer PERMANENT damage. I think you really(and should, at least) know that.

I don't understand how you could read anything I have posted and think that I would support Obama

soonerscuba
7/11/2011, 02:47 PM
I don't understand how you could read anything I have posted and think that I would support ObamaUh, anything not expressly anti-Obama is pro-Obama in his weird mind. I'm still clinging to the fact he is the most epic troll ever.

3rdgensooner
7/11/2011, 02:47 PM
I don't understand how you could read anything I have posted and think that I would support ObamaObama lover

bigfatjerk
7/11/2011, 02:50 PM
attempts to censor free speech will never fly anymore. Socialism/authoritarian control is already happening under the democrats, and if Obear is elected, we will suffer PERMANENT damage. I think you really(and should, at least) know that.

We had a republican in the office for 8 years and how did he run the government? For the most part as an authoritarian socialistic form of government. The only reason the democrats didn't like him is because of his motivations for doing things and using faith at times. Obama isn't getting reelected no matter who is the republican because of how the economy is going and because his policies are a lot to do with that. He can't run on hope and change, he can only run on fear that the republicans will destroy the entitlements or crap like that, which isn't true. But I have no faith that the republican we elect which is probably Romney will be any different. Even Bachman is better than Romney and I don't particularly like her either.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
7/11/2011, 02:51 PM
I don't understand how you could read anything I have posted and think that I would support ObamaI don't, necessarily, but IMHO to compare anyone running for the R's, and what they espouse, to the totally unacceptable beliefs and demonstrated damaging behavior of the democrats is a distraction from the real need we have to get rid of those bad apples, ASAP.

DIB
7/11/2011, 02:51 PM
RON PAUL FOR AMERICA!!!

Mississippi Sooner
7/11/2011, 02:52 PM
Isn't Ron Paul unelectable?

The
7/11/2011, 02:53 PM
You know who we need to elect President? The Statue of Liberty, that's who.

http://img.ezinemark.com/imagemanager2/files/2010_re/2010-08-28-19-16-25-8-Statue-of-Liberty-Symbol-of-Freedom-for-the-Oppressed.jpeg

DIB
7/11/2011, 02:53 PM
I don't, necessarily, but IMHO to compare anyone running for the R's, and what they espouse, to the totally unacceptable beliefs and demonstrated damaging behavior of the democrats is a distraction from the real need we have to get rid of those bad apples, ASAP.

I am not sold that there will be an appreciable difference in policy between the establishment candidates of the republican party and Obama.

bigfatjerk
7/11/2011, 02:53 PM
Isn't Ron Paul unelectable?

About 4 years ago this time Obama was probably considered unelectable. Ron Paul would be the best candidate we have running right now for either party.

landrun
7/11/2011, 02:55 PM
Not true. I agree with MOST of the social positions of the GOP. I am not talking about social positions, anyway. I am talking about MORALITY! You can't make laws to make people act better or do the things you consider right from a moral code.

I really think that's a myth. And I used to believe it. But the truth is government changes people's behavior all the time.

If you think about it, that's exactly how we abolished slavery and now, no one in this country is pro-slavery. We did away with it by law and taught people to be for the rights of all men regardless of color. A few generations later and the idea of slavery is unthinkable to any of us.

Now, our children are being taught to 'tolerate' homosexuals. And its working. The younger generation is far more tolerant of a gay lifestyle then their parents or grandparents.

It's how the government got me to change my behavior by fastening my seat belt. Even if there was no law, I'd fasten my seat belt now... 'cause I'm skeered not too. :) when I was a kid I'd ride on TOP of a pickup. I wouldn't ride on back of one now etc...

All because of laws passed by government. It's been argued that after Constantine became a Christian, then Christianity spread freely throughout Rome. It took the government to make a law for that to happen. You can certainly see that in Muslim countries that are governed by Sharia law. Their citizens adhere to strict teachings of Islam. etc.... There are probably innumerable examples if we were to really think about it.

There will always be people who break the law, but the truth is the government changes people behavior all the time... and they know it too.

bigfatjerk
7/11/2011, 02:55 PM
I am not sold that there will be an appreciable difference in policy between the establishment candidates of the republican party and Obama.

There's differences in policy here and there but not really a difference in the way they both govern. Both are very socialistic.

bigfatjerk
7/11/2011, 02:59 PM
I really think that's a myth. And I used to believe it. But the truth is government changes people's behavior all the time.

If you think about it, that's exactly how we abolished slavery and now, no one in this country is pro-slavery. We did away with it by law and taught people to be for the rights of all men regardless of color. A few generations later and the idea of slavery is unthinkable to any of us.

Now, our children are being taught to 'tolerate' homosexuals. And its working. The younger generation is far more tolerant of a gay lifestyle then their parents or grandparents.

It's how the government got me to change my behavior by fastening my seat belt. Even if there was no law, I'd fasten my seat belt now... 'cause I'm skeered not too. :) when I was a kid I'd ride on TOP of a pickup. I wouldn't ride on back of one now etc...

All because of laws passed by government. It's been argued that after Constantine became a Christian, then Christianity spread freely throughout Rome. It took the government to make a law for that to happen. You can certainly see that in Muslim countries that are governed by Sharia law. Their citizens adhere to strict teachings of Islam. etc.... There are probably innumerable examples if we were to really think about it.

There will always be people who break the law, but the truth is the government changes people behavior all the time... and they know it too.

Look at the War on Drugs. It's gone on for 40 years and done basically nothing at best, been a complete disaster at worse. Both parties have fueled the thing more and more every year, and the only real reason it's going on is for moral reasons. Not because it would actually keep drugs out of kids hands, or do anything to actually limit drug use in this country. BTW the very socialist War on Drugs was started by the republican party in the 70s.

3rdgensooner
7/11/2011, 03:00 PM
I am not sold that there will be an appreciable difference in policy between the establishment candidates of the republican party and Obama.
I knew it, Obama lover

GKeeper316
7/11/2011, 03:00 PM
We had a republican in the office for 8 years and how did he run the government? For the most part as an authoritarian socialistic form of government. The only reason the democrats didn't like him is because of his motivations for doing things and using faith at times. Obama isn't getting reelected no matter who is the republican because of how the economy is going and because his policies are a lot to do with that. He can't run on hope and change, he can only run on fear that the republicans will destroy the entitlements or crap like that, which isn't true. But I have no faith that the republican we elect which is probably Romney will be any different. Even Bachman is better than Romney and I don't particularly like her either.

i'll bet you a thousand dollars obama gets re-elected. the tea party has such a stranglehold on the gop nomination that whoever the gop actually puts forth as a candidate will lose the undecideds.

undecided voters... kinda funny that the stupidest voters decide the outcome every election.

bigfatjerk
7/11/2011, 03:06 PM
i'll bet you a thousand dollars obama gets re-elected. the tea party has such a stranglehold on the gop nomination that whoever the gop actually puts forth as a candidate will lose the undecideds.

undecided voters... kinda funny that the stupidest voters decide the outcome every election.
I haven't seen Obama move to the middle though which is what he needs to win the election. Right now he has no support at all from independents. And it'll come down to the electoral votes of Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and North Carolina. If he loses 2 of those 4 he probably loses the election. Some say Florida is winnable for Obama, but I don't see it. Jeb Bush is still popular in Florida, I don't think Obama has a shot to win there. Virginia and Ohio are probably solidly Republican right now. North Carolina is a toss up at best. Pennsylvania should go democrat.


Obama won't win any state in the south more than likely so he'll have to rely on the north east, and California for his electoral votes. And unless the economy gets a lot better the next year. He won't win enough of the 4 states above to win the election. The only way he gets saved is if unemployment goes down to around 7.5% nation wide and the debt and deficit are both reduced by about a trillion each.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
7/11/2011, 03:08 PM
I am not sold that there will be an appreciable difference in policy between the establishment candidates of the republican party and Obama.Then yeah, you might be a candidate for re-electing the oBear

87sooner
7/11/2011, 03:10 PM
I am not sold that there will be an appreciable difference in policy between the establishment candidates of the republican party and Obama.

other than the social issues....you're right..
spending/borrowing has been out of control under every president the past 40 years...
obama promised to end the wars and not only has he failed...he has entered more conflicts...
other than abortion/gay rights crap/environmental issues....it has been business as usual since obama took over...

GKeeper316
7/11/2011, 03:10 PM
he hasn't even started campaigning yet.

between the religious right, the tea party and the hard core libertarians, there's not a single gop candidate capable of beating obama the way the gop is so fractured right now. say what you want about the democrats, but they are all pretty solidly behind the president.

DIB
7/11/2011, 03:10 PM
Then yeah, you might be a candidate for re-electing the oBear

No. I just want someone that is a real alternative. You seem to be ok with accepting the same old crap. I want something better.

GKeeper316
7/11/2011, 03:15 PM
other than the social issues....you're right..
spending/borrowing has been out of control under every president the past 40 years... except clinton. he left office with the largest budget surplus in america's history.
obama promised to end the wars and not only has he failed...he has entered more conflicts... what "more conflicts"?
other than abortion/gay rights crap/environmental issues....it has been business as usual since obama took over... not really.

where do you get your "facts"?

My Opinion Matters
7/11/2011, 03:17 PM
Oh common give me a break.

Ha ha yeah thats really good, accept that he didn't say poor he said people laxing of responsibility is an entirely different way of putting it. So yeah, you only get parcel credit, genius. It would have been a good putdown if you even tried to get it right but go ahead and play the old lefty baitin' switch switcheroo shell game slight-of-hand with words and hope no one really notices. But those who aren't all enameled with with your fearless leader Obama and his empty calorie poetry have homed in on these types of games from the start.
because all you have is words and even then we still have Sarah Plain going to destroy you where it hurts, beat you at your own game. I'd be willing to bet that Going Rouge will outsell The Odyssey of Hope two to one when all the dust settles. I went to the signing in Fort Wayne yesterday at Boarders and there was no room at the inn and the manger had to literally turn people away. And the people were coming from every where. They came in to the store in droves and drove in in buses and some people even packed in ten people or even a doesnt to a car and by the time Palin was done signing those thousands of books she must have had carpool tunnel syndrome. There must have been even more people there then during her camping stop at the Fort wayne fairgrounds last summer. And to show you what kind of dedication we have that morning I had stupidly misplayed my keys and had to walk two miles to the Boarders. Had I not been so carless I could have gotten their earlier and gotten a photograph with the next president of the united states but i had to settle for an odograph on my addition of Going Rouge which was cool with me. I was a nerves wreck when I met her, and nearly started hyphenating when it was my turn to meter, but she was extremely cool and not a stuck up lying phoney like Iraq Hussein Islama.

How about that change, eh? Buddy can you spare some, eh? Enjoy the next three years of your messiahs so called Euphoria, enjoy the growing employment rate and the increasingly nasty defecate. Ha. Enjoy it. Because there years is all you got left Lefty.

bigfatjerk
7/11/2011, 03:18 PM
he hasn't even started campaigning yet.

between the religious right, the tea party and the hard core libertarians, there's not a single gop candidate capable of beating obama the way the gop is so fractured right now. say what you want about the democrats, but they are all pretty solidly behind the president.

Again 4 years ago the same was said about the democrat party between Edwards, Clinton, and Obama. It's way too early to talk like that.

I don't care for Romney, but if you look at how he'll run things he's basically an independent democrat. What we'll see is basically what Clinton did, lower cap gains tax, raise individual taxes on the rich and large spending cuts. We won't get entitlement reform or drawback on our wars overseas which we need to do. But again Obama isn't going to do any of this at all. He'll simply say we need to raise taxes, raise spending, increase entitlements. Even though we can't afford any of that.

87sooner
7/11/2011, 03:20 PM
I haven't seen Obama move to the middle though which is what he needs to win the election. Right now he has no support at all from independents. And it'll come down to the electoral votes of Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and North Carolina. If he loses 2 of those 4 he probably loses the election. Some say Florida is winnable for Obama, but I don't see it. Jeb Bush is still popular in Florida, I don't think Obama has a shot to win there. Virginia and Ohio are probably solidly Republican right now. North Carolina is a toss up at best. Pennsylvania should go democrat.


Obama won't win any state in the south more than likely so he'll have to rely on the north east, and California for his electoral votes. And unless the economy gets a lot better the next year. He won't win enough of the 4 states above to win the election. The only way he gets saved is if unemployment goes down to around 7.5% nation wide and the debt and deficit are both reduced by about a trillion each.


not going to happen...
you can't reduce govt. spending that much and expect unemployment to go down..

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
7/11/2011, 03:20 PM
No. I just want someone that is a real alternative. You seem to be ok with accepting the same old crap. I want something better.The same old crap was pretty acceptable to me until the dems got a hold of congress in the '06 erection, and since then, it has been a race to the bottom. If Beighnor caves on no new taxes, then the oBear gets erected, and we can officially say goombye to the USA.

landrun
7/11/2011, 03:24 PM
Look at the War on Drugs. It's gone on for 40 years and done basically nothing at best, been a complete disaster at worse. Both parties have fueled the thing more and more every year, and the only real reason it's going on is for moral reasons. Not because it would actually keep drugs out of kids hands, or do anything to actually limit drug use in this country. BTW the very socialist War on Drugs was started by the republican party in the 70s.

That's because Abraham Lincoln hasn't been running the show. You haven't provided proof the government can't change behavior. You've provided proof of how incompetent the US government has been since the 70's. :D

Seriously, good and fair point. But I think there have been plenty of evidence to show that the government can change behavior also.

87sooner
7/11/2011, 03:25 PM
except clinton. he left office with the largest budget surplus in america's history.



... what "more conflicts"?



where do you get your "facts"?

the debt increased under clinton....the spending never slowed..

what more conflicts? how bout libya? how bout pakistan?

bigfatjerk
7/11/2011, 03:28 PM
Did you know we have more people in Afghanistan/Iraq combined right now than we had under Bush? We have roughly 200k in those 2 countries now. I think it's about 150k in Afghanistan, 50k in Iraq. The most we had under Bush was around 90k in both at the same time. Yeah we've really slowed down in the middle east under Obama.

DIB
7/11/2011, 03:36 PM
That's because Abraham Lincoln hasn't been running the show. You haven't provided proof the government can't change behavior. You've provided proof of how incompetent the US government has been since the 70's. :D

Seriously, good and fair point. But I think there have been plenty of evidence to show that the government can change behavior also.

Is that a good thing?

GKeeper316
7/11/2011, 03:42 PM
the debt increased under clinton....the spending never slowed..

what more conflicts? how bout libya? how bout pakistan?

of course the debt increased. as long as there is a debt and interest is applied to said debt, there will alway be an increase in the amount owed... but under democratic presidents, the spending usually goes down. when clinton left office the federal government was not spending more than it cost to run or took in from taxes.

that is what is called a budget surplus. you use those to pay down the debt. i'm starting to wonder if people that claim to be conservatives actually know anything at all about economics...

do we have ground troops in libya? as far as i know all we're doing is supporting the native population with equipment and an occasional smart bomb.

The Maestro
7/11/2011, 03:57 PM
You know who we need to elect President? The Statue of Liberty, that's who.

http://img.ezinemark.com/imagemanager2/files/2010_re/2010-08-28-19-16-25-8-Statue-of-Liberty-Symbol-of-Freedom-for-the-Oppressed.jpeg

Born in France. She can't run.

DIB
7/11/2011, 03:58 PM
Born in France. She can't run.

Well, our current prez is from Kenya!


Obama LULZ!!!!

GKeeper316
7/11/2011, 03:59 PM
Born in France. She can't run.

thats so racist.

i'd vote for maria sharapova, too.

87sooner
7/11/2011, 07:13 PM
of course the debt increased. as long as there is a debt and interest is applied to said debt, there will alway be an increase in the amount owed... but under democratic presidents, the spending usually goes down. when clinton left office the federal government was not spending more than it cost to run or took in from taxes.

that is what is called a budget surplus. you use those to pay down the debt. i'm starting to wonder if people that claim to be conservatives actually know anything at all about economics...

nice spin....but the debt INCREASED during both clinton terms...
forget economics....you don't seem to understand simple math...




do we have ground troops in libya? as far as i know all we're doing is supporting the native population with equipment and an occasional smart bomb.

i said "conflicts"....you said "what conflicts?"
now your standard is "ground troops"...?
well there are ground troops all over the middle east and after promising to end these wars....2 1/2 years in and he's in no hurry to do so...
and as i said...new conflicts all over the middle east..

Blue
7/11/2011, 07:18 PM
of course the debt increased. as long as there is a debt and interest is applied to said debt, there will alway be an increase in the amount owed... but under democratic presidents, the spending usually goes down. when clinton left office the federal government was not spending more than it cost to run or took in from taxes.

that is what is called a budget surplus. you use those to pay down the debt. i'm starting to wonder if people that claim to be conservatives actually know anything at all about economics...

do we have ground troops in libya? as far as i know all we're doing is supporting the native population with equipment and an occasional smart bomb.

Do you see Obama leaving office with a budget surplus?

AlboSooner
7/11/2011, 08:41 PM
Is the GOP dying or is it not?

I Am Right
7/11/2011, 08:43 PM
Is the GOP dying or is it not?

Nope!

GKeeper316
7/11/2011, 08:50 PM
nice spin....but the debt INCREASED during both clinton terms...
forget economics....you don't seem to understand simple math...




i said "conflicts"....you said "what conflicts?"
now your standard is "ground troops"...?
well there are ground troops all over the middle east and after promising to end these wars....2 1/2 years in and he's in no hurry to do so...
and as i said...new conflicts all over the middle east..

the national debt doesn't have anything to do with annual budget surpluses...

and ya if there's no troops on the ground, we aren't really involved yet. and neither pakistan nor libya is part of the middle east.

GKeeper316
7/11/2011, 08:51 PM
Do you see Obama leaving office with a budget surplus?

a budget surplus isn't possible right now.

87sooner
7/11/2011, 09:36 PM
the national debt doesn't have anything to do with annual budget surpluses...


you're right....but it should...
btw....what caused that "surplus" and where did it go?



and ya if there's no troops on the ground, we aren't really involved yet. and neither pakistan nor libya is part of the middle east.

whether you admit it or not....we're involved..

MamaMia
7/11/2011, 10:03 PM
Want to know why your party is dying? When sane people see the GOP, they see Jerry Falwell wannabes and nobody wants that in government.

You're some of the biggest hypocritical idiots around. You claim to be for the "party of small government" yet you have no problem shoving your view down somebody's throat.

Bachmann pledges to ban ‘all forms of pornography’ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/07/08/bachmann-pledges-to-ban-all-forms-of-pornography/)

Santorum signs pro-marriage pledge (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/09/santorum-signs-pro-marriage-pledge-promising-personal-fidelity/#more-166739)

Here is the pledge (http://images.minnesotaindependent.com/The-Family-Leader-Presidential-Pledge.pdf) that you can read that both Bachmann and Santorum have signed.
It's “The Marriage Vow – A Declaration of Dependence Upon Marriage and Family,” which is the creation of The Family Leader, an Iowa-based conservative Christian group, and its CEO, Bob Vander Plaats. Basically, it's a very anti-gay/anti-gay marriage/anti-divorce/anti-pornography/anti-abortion/anti-prostitution/anti-anything that might destroy a family pledge.

The real nugget that got taken out (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58631.html) was this right here.



That's not the smartest thing to say. In fact, it's one of the stupidest things to say.

What do people care about right now? They care about the economy and jobs. Do you really think people will vote in somebody they are afraid will go on a moralist crusade the second they get into office when they think they should focus on the economy? No, they will not.

I can go out about the failed War on Drugs which would save us around $35 billion a year from the federal budget in times when we're looking to help the debt and deficit spending. We know though that won't happen because that'd be too logical, and it's also a nice way to sidestep the 4th amendment so that's too much power to give up.

It gets even better.



So shouldn't we be respecting gay couples that have already married? Oh that's right, Jesus doesn't like it so we have to focus on getting rid of that.

If you keep this up you might actually scare people into voting for Obama. He'll ruin the economy by social means but to some it's better than a Christian Taliban arresting somebody for masturbating (http://www.dumpbachmann.com/2010/09/michele-bachmann-backs-anti.html), going to war with every "Godless" country that looks at us funny (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/rick-santorum-the-crusades-get-a-bad-rap.php), and increasing "security" all over the country (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/14/politics/main20031928.shtml) to stop the terrorist from "getting us." This post is so wrong in so many ways. Anyone who thinks this way has GOT to have some real comprehension and communicating skill problems...and who knows what the hell else? :confused:

Chuck Bao
7/11/2011, 10:21 PM
I really think that's a myth. And I used to believe it. But the truth is government changes people's behavior all the time.

If you think about it, that's exactly how we abolished slavery and now, no one in this country is pro-slavery. We did away with it by law and taught people to be for the rights of all men regardless of color. A few generations later and the idea of slavery is unthinkable to any of us.

Now, our children are being taught to 'tolerate' homosexuals. And its working. The younger generation is far more tolerant of a gay lifestyle then their parents or grandparents.

It's how the government got me to change my behavior by fastening my seat belt. Even if there was no law, I'd fasten my seat belt now... 'cause I'm skeered not too. :) when I was a kid I'd ride on TOP of a pickup. I wouldn't ride on back of one now etc...

All because of laws passed by government. It's been argued that after Constantine became a Christian, then Christianity spread freely throughout Rome. It took the government to make a law for that to happen. You can certainly see that in Muslim countries that are governed by Sharia law. Their citizens adhere to strict teachings of Islam. etc.... There are probably innumerable examples if we were to really think about it.

There will always be people who break the law, but the truth is the government changes people behavior all the time... and they know it too.

landrun, you have made some most excellent and thought-provoking posts in this thread. I am just not sure what the logical conclusion of your argument in this one should be.

It would seem that in your defense of "all laws have a morality element", that you are playing the social engineering card and that, as I understand it, is pretty much polar opposite to the Religious Right's views because it had, for the most part, been seen as a tool of the Liberal Left. If the Religious Right has switched tactics and begun their own religious right social engineering agenda, that would be very frightening to me.

I value freedom above all and democracy within the framework of the US Constitution. We had some incredibly smart forefathers. I don't think that I can ever say that enough.

Basically, I switched from the Republican party when I heard some of the Religious Right start taking about changing the Constitution with a Bill of Wrongs amendments. I guess some of them were so feed up with the courts and judicial legislating from the bench, particularly regarding gay marriage that they would rather expend huge political capital on this subject instead of focusing on how to fix the economy.

I would would most definitely vote for Ron Paul over every candidate so far in the running even if he has some strange ideas about the Federal Reserve.

Turd_Ferguson
7/11/2011, 10:34 PM
Nope!Leave him out of this...

MamaMia
7/11/2011, 10:44 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why MR2-Sooner86 is miffed about people who masturbate getting arrested. Cant say I remember the last time I knew someone was doing that. I cant say I have ever even cared. One thing I do know for sure is...If someone does get arrested for it, they definitely had an audience. :O :confused: :O

I'm going to just blame the beginning of this thread on something with an alcohol content.

Chuck Bao
7/11/2011, 11:00 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why MR2-Sooner86 is miffed about people who masturbate getting arrested. Cant say I remember the last time I knew someone was doing that. I cant say I have ever even cared. One thing I do know for sure is...If someone does get arrested for it, they definitely had an audience. :O :confused: :O

I'm going to just blame the beginning of this thread on something with an alcohol content.

I am not going to bite on that one, Mama. That's entrapment.

You are going to have to try harder next time. ;)

GKeeper316
7/11/2011, 11:20 PM
I am not going to bite on that one, Mama. That's entrapment.

You are going to have to try harder next time. ;)

he said bite. and harder.

MamaMia
7/11/2011, 11:21 PM
I am not going to bite on that one, Mama. That's entrapment.

You are going to have to try harder next time. ;)I think I'll pass. :O

yermom
7/12/2011, 03:12 AM
About 4 years ago this time Obama was probably considered unelectable. Ron Paul would be the best candidate we have running right now for either party.

i think Obama won the election at the DNC before the 2004 election...

Ron Paul doesn't like the military industrial complex, so he's out with the republican talking heads somewhere... somewhere the string pullers don't seem to like him

MamaMia
7/12/2011, 03:40 AM
Do you see Obama leaving office with a budget surplus?

Yeah, for China. :rolleyes:

pphilfran
7/12/2011, 06:10 AM
the debt increased under clinton....the spending never slowed..

what more conflicts? how bout libya? how bout pakistan?

When looking at spending as a % of GDP Clinton actually cut spending about 2% a year...

From 1992 - 1999 he cut military spending from 298 billion a year to 261 billion...

GKeeper316
7/12/2011, 12:36 PM
When looking at spending as a % of GDP Clinton actually cut spending about 2% a year...

From 1992 - 1999 he cut military spending from 298 billion a year to 261 billion...

facts make pubs heads explode.

Blue
7/12/2011, 01:20 PM
When looking at spending as a % of GDP Clinton actually cut spending about 2% a year...

From 1992 - 1999 he cut military spending from 298 billion a year to 261 billion...

So the internet boom helped out his percentage then?

soonercruiser
7/12/2011, 01:35 PM
Want to know why your party is dying? When sane people see the GOP, they see Jerry Falwell wannabes and nobody wants that in government.

You're some of the biggest hypocritical idiots around. You claim to be for the "party of small government" yet you have no problem shoving your view down somebody's throat.

What do people care about right now? They care about the economy and jobs. Do you really think people will vote in somebody they are afraid will go on a moralist crusade the second they get into office when they think they should focus on the economy? No, they will not.

I can go out about the failed War on Drugs which would save us around $35 billion a year from the federal budget in times when we're looking to help the debt and deficit spending. We know though that won't happen because that'd be too logical, and it's also a nice way to sidestep the 4th amendment so that's too much power to give up.



Slavery had a disastrous impact on African-American families, yet sadly a child born into slavery in 1860 was more likely to be raised by his mother and father in a two-parent household than was an African-American baby born after the election of the USA’s first African-American President

THIS IS THE TRUTH!
The break down of the American family unit is one of the single most important factors in the demise of our contry!
And, to boot, abortion is the biggest killer of black children - a multiple of other races!

So - let's all go out and get somebody pregnant and have an abortion!
So, let's all smoke pot and get hung on worst drugs and see what that does for the country! Let's just make everything legal! Whatever feels good!
Happy, stupid libs! :rolleyes:

The Founding Fathers failed to mention in the Constitution what marriage was defined as.
Some would say that there is some kind of separation of church and state!
If so.....marriage was defined by religions well before this country was founded.
So, why not leave it alone progressives????

It is the Demoncrats that are destroying themselves.
If you don't believe in "something"; you will believe in anything!

Position Limit
7/12/2011, 01:40 PM
THIS IS THE TRUTH!
The break down of the American family unit is one of the single most important factors in the demise of our contry!
And, to boot, abortion is the biggest killer of black children - a multiple of other races!

So - let's all go out and get somebody pregnant and have an abortion!
So, let's all smoke pot and get hung on worst drugs and see what that does for the country! Let's just make everything legal! Whatever feels good!
Happy, stupid libs! :rolleyes:

The Founding Fathers failed to mention in the Constitution what marriage was defined as.
Some would say that there is some kind of separation of church and state!
If so.....marriage was defined by religions well before this country was founded.
So, why not leave it alone progressives????

It is the Demoncrats that are destroying themselves.
If you don't believe in "something"; you will believe in anything!

you couldnt keep it in any longer, could you? go team fight win, right? those are some very complex theories you got there. be careful.

soonercruiser
7/12/2011, 01:42 PM
facts make pubs heads explode.

Fact probaby is that GDP went up exponentially under Clinton and the technology boom.
And thus, so did tax revenues.

You must get ALL THE FACTS...not just the ones you like!
:rolleyes:

The Profit
7/12/2011, 01:44 PM
Jesus had no problem with gays. In fact, he never even mentioned them. After all, he ran around with 12 dudes and one chick. One can only guess what happened with 12 dudes in the wilderness. Jesus did voice his disdain for greed and publicly castigated those, who had a love of money. Yep, Christ's teaching fly in the face of capitalism. Many "so-called" Christians get the teachings of Paul confused with the teachings of Christ. There is a reason that there is a religious sect called Christians, and that there isn't a sect referred to as "Paulians." Paul was a wacko.

bigfatjerk
7/12/2011, 01:48 PM
When looking at spending as a % of GDP Clinton actually cut spending about 2% a year...

From 1992 - 1999 he cut military spending from 298 billion a year to 261 billion...

Spending still increased every year.

87sooner
7/12/2011, 01:50 PM
Jesus had no problem with gays. In fact, he never even mentioned them. After all, he ran around with 12 dudes and one chick. One can only guess what happened with 12 dudes in the wilderness. Jesus did voice his disdain for greed and publicly castigated those, who had a love of money. Yep, Christ's teaching fly in the face of capitalism. Many "so-called" Christians get the teachings of Paul confused with the teachings of Christ. There is a reason that there is a religious sect called Christians, and that there isn't a sect referred to as "Paulians." Paul was a wacko.

why do we not have a rotfl emote?
or a steaming pile of horse manure emote?

your post requires both...

DIB
7/12/2011, 02:02 PM
why do we not have a rotfl emote?
or a steaming pile of horse manure emote?

your post requires both...

what about a ROTSPOHM emote?

bigfatjerk
7/12/2011, 02:13 PM
Jesus had no problem with gays. In fact, he never even mentioned them. After all, he ran around with 12 dudes and one chick. One can only guess what happened with 12 dudes in the wilderness. Jesus did voice his disdain for greed and publicly castigated those, who had a love of money. Yep, Christ's teaching fly in the face of capitalism. Many "so-called" Christians get the teachings of Paul confused with the teachings of Christ. There is a reason that there is a religious sect called Christians, and that there isn't a sect referred to as "Paulians." Paul was a wacko.

Statements like this are way today's left is just as bad as the right. You are just as wrong as the 'religious right' that say everyone goes to hell if they don't believe what they believe. It's like there is no middle with you people.

Chuck Bao
7/12/2011, 02:17 PM
Jesus had no problem with gays. In fact, he never even mentioned them. After all, he ran around with 12 dudes and one chick. One can only guess what happened with 12 dudes in the wilderness. Jesus did voice his disdain for greed and publicly castigated those, who had a love of money. Yep, Christ's teaching fly in the face of capitalism. Many "so-called" Christians get the teachings of Paul confused with the teachings of Christ. There is a reason that there is a religious sect called Christians, and that there isn't a sect referred to as "Paulians." Paul was a wacko.

Paul did see the light and hear a voice on the road to Damascus that converted him to his new faith. But, nowhere in his writings to the various fledgling Christian churches do I see a claim that God in Heaven was telling him exactly what to write. He never said that the light or the voice kept dictating to him.

But many Christians still think of the Bible we know today is all the inspired Word of God. Paul wrote some amazing words of wisdom that is still applicable today and we would all benefit from heeding his advice. A lot of it was suited for different times, however.

The real kicker is that modern Christians can't follow the teachings of Paul, or Jesus or some of the Old Testament prophets. It is pretty much a pick and choose deal.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
7/12/2011, 02:18 PM
What a (another)STUPID thread! haha

The Profit
7/12/2011, 02:18 PM
why do we not have a rotfl emote?
or a steaming pile of horse manure emote?

your post requires both...



Where do you disagree with my post?


Did Jesus travel around with 12 other dudes and a chick?

Did Jesus ever promote capitalism (please list proper scripture)?

Was Paul really Jesus?

87sooner
7/12/2011, 02:19 PM
Statements like this are way today's left is just as bad as the right. You are just as wrong as the 'religious right' that say everyone goes to hell if they don't believe what they believe. It's like there is no middle with you people.

is that what the "religious right" says?

bigfatjerk
7/12/2011, 02:25 PM
is that what the "religious right" says?

Some on the extreme end do. The thing about the government today is that there isn't a religious right in our government at all. I'm not even sure there is a right, they are all on the same side of the aisle to me. Some may say they are religious but very few actually apply Christian principles to politics. If we applied the non violent principle of 'do unto others as you would do to yourself' you would have no need for high taxes, big military complex and spending on pet projects that should have nothing to do with government spending at all.

87sooner
7/12/2011, 02:46 PM
Where do you disagree with my post?


Did Jesus travel around with 12 other dudes and a chick?

"traveling with people" does not mean Jesus was gay or that he approved of homosexuality....



Did Jesus ever promote capitalism (please list proper scripture)?

no...He didn't....He didn't "promote" any system of government..
He only "promoted" one "thing"...
how do you leap from "Jesus never promoted capitalism" to capitalism is evil?






Was Paul really Jesus?

of course not....
but after paul's conversion...he spent his entire life "promoting" Jesus

87sooner
7/12/2011, 03:02 PM
Some on the extreme end do. The thing about the government today is that there isn't a religious right in our government at all. I'm not even sure there is a right, they are all on the same side of the aisle to me. Some may say they are religious but very few actually apply Christian principles to politics. If we applied the non violent principle of 'do unto others as you would do to yourself' you would have no need for high taxes, big military complex and spending on pet projects that should have nothing to do with government spending at all.

that's what i've been saying...
politicians of every race/creed/color/religion have sold this country down the toilet with their overspending and shipping jobs overseas and allowing illegal immigration and the list goes on and on...

i think most politicians suck the special interest teat for their campaign contributions with no real intent to further their agendas...(i'm talking about the "social" special interests like the christian conservatives)

but make no mistake....there is a large block of voters who still believe prostitution/drugs/abortion/gay marriage are not good for this country...

GKeeper316
7/12/2011, 03:03 PM
Fact probaby is that GDP went up exponentially under Clinton and the technology boom.
And thus, so did tax revenues.

You must get ALL THE FACTS...not just the ones you like!
:rolleyes:

whats a "probaby"?

and ya, the debt went up. thats what happens when you're in debt. interest is applied... but take a look at what w did to the debt and then try to tell me its obama's fault.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms

bigfatjerk
7/12/2011, 03:17 PM
that's what i've been saying...
politicians of every race/creed/color/religion have sold this country down the toilet with their overspending and shipping jobs overseas and allowing illegal immigration and the list goes on and on...

i think most politicians suck the special interest teat for their campaign contributions with no real intent to further their agendas...(i'm talking about the "social" special interests like the christian conservatives)

but make no mistake....there is a large block of voters who still believe prostitution/drugs/abortion/gay marriage are not good for this country...

And I don't think I agree with most of those lifestyles, but making them illegal hasn't really stopped any of these lifestyles from going on.

TitoMorelli
7/12/2011, 03:23 PM
whats a "probaby"?



probaby = antiabortion?:confused:

Mississippi Sooner
7/12/2011, 03:25 PM
[hairGel] A probaby gets paid for it!

DIB
7/12/2011, 03:25 PM
I can assure you that I am not probaby. They are loud, expensive and they smell.

87sooner
7/12/2011, 03:27 PM
And I don't think I agree with most of those lifestyles, but making them illegal hasn't really stopped any of these lifestyles from going on.

legalizing abortion has desensitized society to the fact a human life is being murdered.......i would argue making it illegal would in fact make people stop and think about what they're doing...
no...it wouldn't reduce abortion to 0..
laws against prostitution/pornography don't reduce them to 0...
laws against ANYTHING doesn't stop it completely...
people still speed and steal and murder/etc...

our govt legalizing abortion shows the world how much (little) we value human life...
and the moral decline continues...

The
7/12/2011, 03:27 PM
legalizing abortion has desensitized society to the fact a human life is being murdered.......i would argue making it illegal would in fact make people stop and think about what they're doing...
no...it wouldn't reduce abortion to 0..
laws against prostitution/pornography doesn't reduce them to 0...
laws against ANYTHING doesn't stop it completely...
people still speed and steal and murder/etc...

our govt legalizing abortion shows the world how much (little) we value human life...
and the moral decline continues...
Here's a better analogy:

Many years ago two salesmen were sent by a British shoe manufacturer to Africa to investigate market potential.

The first salesman reported, "There is no potential here - nobody wears shoes."

The second salesman stated, "There is massive potential here - nobody wears shoes."

A third salesman suddenly barged in and said "Nobody wears rubbers either, I am afraid I have contracted full-blown AIDS."

The rest of the conference was an awkward silence.

The moral of the story is. When you are part of the wacky in-your-face improv-troupe "The Improvphalactics" you will go to ANY lengths to get in a distasteful joke, even posing as a British shoesalesman with AIDS.

DIB
7/12/2011, 03:29 PM
Here's a better analogy:

Many years ago two salesmen were sent by a British shoe manufacturer to Africa to investigate market potential.

The first salesman reported, "There is no potential here - nobody wears shoes."

The second salesman stated, "There is massive potential here - nobody wears shoes."

A third salesman suddenly barged in and said "Nobody wears rubbers either, I am afraid I have contracted full-blown AIDS."

The rest of the conference was an awkward silence.

The moral of the story is. When you are part of the wacky in-your-face improv-troupe "The Improvphalactics" you will go to ANY lengths to get in a distasteful joke, even posing as a British shoesalesman with AIDS.

Everyone has AIDS. AIDS. AIDS. AIDS.

Jammin'
7/12/2011, 03:32 PM
legalizing abortion has desensitized society to the fact a human life is being murdered.......i would argue making it illegal would in fact make people stop and think about what they're doing...
no...it wouldn't reduce abortion to 0..
laws against prostitution/pornography don't reduce them to 0...
laws against ANYTHING doesn't stop it completely...
people still speed and steal and murder/etc...

our govt legalizing abortion shows the world how much (little) we value human life...
and the moral decline continues...

Remember back in the good times when abortion wasn't legal but abusing/killing blacks wasn't frowned upon. My how we've declined.

87sooner
7/12/2011, 03:34 PM
Remember back in the good times when abortion wasn't legal but abusing/killing blacks wasn't frowned upon. My how we've declined.

wasn't "frowned upon" by whom?

GKeeper316
7/12/2011, 03:34 PM
kWTeJ0LlD3E

Jammin'
7/12/2011, 03:36 PM
wasn't "frowned upon" by whom?

about the same amount of people that are against abortion now.

DIB
7/12/2011, 03:38 PM
about the same amount of people that are against abortion now.

So you are saying that for every baby that is murdered via abortion, 87 sould get to beat one black person?

The
7/12/2011, 03:39 PM
So you are saying that for every baby that is murdered via abortion, 87 sould get to beat one black person?

That sounds more than fair. 1 black person or 2 mexicans.

TitoMorelli
7/12/2011, 03:39 PM
Remember back in the good times when abortion wasn't legal but abusing/killing blacks wasn't frowned upon. My how we've declined.

So just wtf has one got to do with the other? Or is it just time for your periodic "Racist !!!" post?

The
7/12/2011, 03:40 PM
So just wtf has one got to do with the other? Or is it just time for your periodic "Racist !!!" post?

Stop being racist.

GKeeper316
7/12/2011, 03:40 PM
That sounds more than fair. 1 black person or 2 mexicans.

1 black dude is worth at least 5 mexicans.

Jammin'
7/12/2011, 03:40 PM
So you are saying that for every baby that is murdered via abortion, 87 sould get to beat one black person?

I'm really not sure. I sorta confused myself and can feel, actually feel, several people typing a furious reply to waht I've posted.

I guess in general 87 should be able to beat blacks if an abortion happens after the 1st trimester. Before that he should only be able to beat the Irish.


On Edit: I was right, took me too long to get this posted.

Mississippi Sooner
7/12/2011, 03:41 PM
Did we ever decide if being racist is better than being rapest?

Mongo
7/12/2011, 05:21 PM
1 black dude is worth at least 5 mexicans.

you arent talking about work ethic are you?

GKeeper316
7/12/2011, 05:23 PM
you arent talking about work ethic are you?

tonnage.

MR2-Sooner86
7/13/2011, 07:20 AM
Separated at birth.


THIS IS THE TRUTH!
The break down of the American family unit is one of the single most important factors in the demise of our contry!

So - let's all go out and get somebody pregnant and have an abortion!

So, let's all smoke pot and get hung on worst drugs and see what that does for the country!

Let's just make everything legal! Whatever feels good!
Happy, stupid libs! :rolleyes:

The Founding Fathers failed to mention in the Constitution what marriage was defined as.

Some would say that there is some kind of separation of church and state!

If so.....marriage was defined by religions well before this country was founded.
So, why not leave it alone progressives????


legalizing abortion has desensitized society to the fact a human life is being murdered.......

H-CAcdta_8I