Legal ******-*******s, successful people and givers of sound advice...

[The Maestro]

Hey! That just said legal k-n-o-w-e-r a-b-o-u-t-e-r-s...nothing bad!

This is not meant to come off as a humblebrag, cocky, I'm-so-great post. I really, really, REALLY do have some legitimate questions about employee rights and what I should have coming to me.

I am a commissioned sales rep. I have the latest and greatest commission plan in front of me from my company. Today is July 1st and the end of business for June has come and gone without another commission plan being given to me and signed.

Now, as preliminary info, I have struggled, fought and battled to be a good provider for my family. Getting laid off in a "last in-first out" reduction in force two days after my youngest son was born two and half years ago threw us into a tailspin that frankly went on for quite some time. This new gig I have been at for four months seemed to be a great solution. Great opportunity.

Well, based on a simple math formula that plugs into a spreadsheet, according to the latest and greatest comp plan, it is easy to figure out that I SHOULD be getting a pre-tax commission this month of over $72,000. Sounds insane and gaudy and all that...I know. My boss told me when I landed the deal that this one deal is his expectations for an entire year for two sales reps...and I got it one large deal.

Well, it wasn't long before I was told the commission plan was changing. The company said the deals need to be profitable before they will pay out commissions. I totally get that...but I wasn't the one who came up with the commission plan. THEY did. I just signed and dated it. Plus, it will be profitable...but this is month one of a HUGE deal. The plan says "the company reserves the right to review, change or otherwise replace this commission plan prospectively at any time, in its sole discretion." I understand that, too. But from my research, the new plan would have needed to be on my desk, signed and dated by end of business yesterday for that to take effect. Since we are now in July and the commissions earned were from June and the latest and greatest plan on my desk is still the most recent comp plan I have, is the company legally bound to it?

Now, I have ZERO plans to take them to court. I like working for this company and want to be a team player. I do, however, plan to use it as leverage to let them know I know what I should be getting based on their comp plan and that I want to know how they plan on making it right with me. This could be in the form of bonus structure, opportunities for advancement, more freedom to come and go as I see fit, etc. It could be many things. Bottom line, I can still make a lot of money here that hasn't been flowing into these pockets...ever.

So my long-winded question...IS the company bound to the current plan since no other plan is in place now that we are in another month? Secondly, any advice you smart folks (I know, I know...south oval advice--am I an idiot, or what?) have is appreciated. All cuteness aside, I am a sole provider for a family of five and I want the best for them...we have scratched and clawed for a few years and I want to get out of financial stress...and I sure as hell want to find a way to get my *** to Tallahassee in mid-September!

Thanks...

[Mjcpr]

Quit.

[StoopTroup]

Do they need you? Are you easily replaced?

[GKeeper316]

"the company reserves the right to review, change or otherwise replace this commission plan prospectively at any time, in its sole discretion."

this is where you're gonna get ****ed. and this is why unions are so valuable.

[StoopTroup]

Quit.

That's one way of handling it.

I have more questions after reading that than answers. I worked on Commission for 7-8 years and usually when they start talking like that....they want you to do what you were doing for nothing.

[The Maestro]

Do they need you? Are you easily replaced?

Eh. They wouldn't lose sleep for two seconds if I was gone. It's not rocket science. I just am very effecient and crafty at it. But we don't split atoms by any means.

[The Maestro]

this is where you're gonna get ****ed. and this is why unions are so valuable.

I know...but my research online says the new changed plan HAS to be in place before the old one is thrown out. And since June is done and July is here...???

[StoopTroup]

Eh. They wouldn't lose sleep for two seconds if I was gone. It's not rocket science. I just am very effecient and crafty at it. But we don't split atoms by any means.

If you have no value to them and they can't give you value for bringing them in sales then they need to go sell it themselves.

I'd ask to be paid and leave.

[OutlandTrophy]

they haven't told you that you will not be getting paid what you believe you have coming to you, have they?

[The Maestro]

they haven't told you that you will not be getting paid what you believe you have coming to you, have they?

Yes. My sales manager said that I should understand they can't pay me that full amount. Hell, even I understand that. But shouldn't the new plan have been in place before the month ended to make it completely valid? Just really trying to understand how much, if any, leverage I have.

Sure, I could get mad, ask for my ball and then go home...and try to find another job. This is a good gig...and the future is still bright here.

[OutlandTrophy]

Are they going to eventually pay you 100% of it but just over time instead of all at once?

I've worked for some pretty crazy and convoluted bonus plans and the big bonuses were paid out over a 3 year period.

I hope you get your money, I have nothing to offer you other than I hope you get it and it's pretty ****ty if you don't.

[GKeeper316]

Yes. My sales manager said that I should understand they can't pay me that full amount. Hell, even I understand that. But shouldn't the new plan have been in place before the month ended to make it completely valid? Just really trying to understand how much, if any, leverage I have.

Sure, I could get mad, ask for my ball and then go home...and try to find another job. This is a good gig...and the future is still bright here.

the decision is up to you... but when a company ****s you, do you really want to stick around when they **** you some more? if they are gonna play fast and loose with thier employees pay, they will soon find themselves with ****ty employees and go tits-up.

you never should have signed a pay agreement that says the company reserves the right to screw you whenever they see fit.

[OutlandTrophy]

you never should have signed a pay agreement that says the company reserves the right to screw you whenever they see fit.

because sitting on the couch without a paycheck is the better option?

[The Maestro]

Are they going to eventually pay you 100% of it but just over time instead of all at once?

I've worked for some pretty crazy and convoluted bonus plans and the big bonuses were paid out over a 3 year period.

I hope you get your money, I have nothing to offer you other than I hope you get it and it's pretty ****ty if you don't.

I plan on suggesting the payout over time if I don't get it all...which I don't plan on it. My main thing is being the aggressor on it and not waiting for some BS report that comes out saying, "Here is what we can pay you." I want to let them know here is what I have earned based on YOUR plan and if you aren't going to give it all to me now, how are we gonna make this work in the future for both of us to make it fair?

Thanks for the hope...beats nothing. I'll keep you posted.

[The Maestro]

because sitting on the couch without a paycheck is the better option?

Exactly. Don't sign the agreement and hit the bricks, pal!

[OutlandTrophy]

Good luck! I'm a dummy but I like your plan.

[My Opinion Matters]

You could set the building on fire.

[Frozen Sooner]

Talk to HR and ask whether they're going to hose you out of the $72,000. If not, good deal. If so, tell them you don't think it's right. If they refuse to do the right thing...

Get a lawyer.

Preferably one who knows what "prospectively" means.

On a cursory reading and without knowing a damn thing other than basic contract principles, you likely have a cause of action. However, I cannot give you any advice on how likely it is you'd prevail, particularly as I don't know the applicable law in your jurisdiction.

$72,000 is worth suing over. At the very least, it's worth paying an attorney $1000 to write your employer a letter saying they need to play nice.

Hint: Prospectively means they can change what you earn on future deals, but they can't change it to **** you on your already-closed deals. General rule of agency law is that your commission is earned when the sale is closed, and actions designed to screw you on your commissions are actionable.

[pphilfran]

What is the June commission difference between the two plans?

[The Maestro]

What is the June commission difference between the two plans?

Based on what I am told...

Current plan - $72,000ish

New plan - $0.

Big difference. New plan is going to be percentage of gross profit which means I have an entire other issue of reselling what I am buying as well. I bought low...now they want me to sell high...cool, I will. But the current plan was going to pay me for just buying low. And I bought a ****load at VERY low.

[OutlandTrophy]

hmmmmm

Froz or someone please correct me if I'm wrong. If Maestro gets paid the $72,000 bonus the IRS will want roughly 40%. If he sues and wins he will only have to give the attorney roughly 33% and the IRS 0. Right?

[tcrb]

The only way to really know what kind of leverage you have is to pay for a consult with a attorney well versed in contract law. If you're looking to stay with the company, an attorney could also offer you some advice on how to negotiate your way through this mine field. I wish you the best of luck.

[Frozen Sooner]

hmmmmm

Froz or someone please correct me if I'm wrong. If Maestro gets paid the $72,000 bonus the IRS will want roughly 40%. If he sues and wins he will only have to give the attorney roughly 33% and the IRS 0. Right?

I'm definitely not going to get into tax advice. However, being that it would be claim for wages, it's probably taxable.

[OutlandTrophy]

gotcha

[StoopTroup]

You have a right to be paid for your work. I'm surprised they didn't try to put you on Salary. They can just get rid of that massive commission rate they inked. No matter whether they later realized they had made a mistake or not....you are entitled to a fair amount of pay for your work. If Froze's option was one I knew you had....I'd be cutting you a check or offering you a job....maybe both. No way I'd want it decided by a jury.

[GKeeper316]

Talk to HR and ask whether they're going to hose you out of the $72,000. If not, good deal. If so, tell them you don't think it's right. If they refuse to do the right thing...

Get a lawyer.

Preferably one who knows what "prospectively" means.

On a cursory reading and without knowing a damn thing other than basic contract principles, you likely have a cause of action. However, I cannot give you any advice on how likely it is you'd prevail, particularly as I don't know the applicable law in your jurisdiction.

$72,000 is worth suing over. At the very least, it's worth paying an attorney $1000 to write your employer a letter saying they need to play nice.

Hint: Prospectively means they can change what you earn on future deals, but they can't change it to **** you on your already-closed deals. General rule of agency law is that your commission is earned when the sale is closed, and actions designed to screw you on your commissions are actionable.

if you're gonna take froz's advice, you need to keep in mind that your company's HR dept. works with the company's best interests at heart, and involving an attorney to assist in resolving this issue may result in your termination.

[pphilfran]

Keeper's advice has crossed my mind as well...

Sounds like the contract they had you sign was not well thought out... :)

What are you buying and selling....can you give us a hint?

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm assuming that once an attorney licensed in his state has taken a look at his documentation and advised him that he has an actionable claim, he's not going to want to stay at a company that would attempt to **** him out of $72,000. Don't know. Maybe $72,000 is chump change to you guys and you wouldn't mind working for a company that would do that to you.

Plus, even in a state that's "at-will", firing someone who prevails on a claim for wages is a really ****ing stupid thing to do.

[Midtowner]

Without reading the whole contract, I'm not saying ****.

Anyone who is willing to comment on the effect of that language without reading the whole contract doesn't know ****.

Considering the amount of money in question, get a lawyer. Not an internet lawyer.

[pphilfran]

I'm assuming that once an attorney licensed in his state has taken a look at his documentation and advised him that he has an actionable claim, he's not going to want to stay at a company that would attempt to **** him out of $72,000. Don't know. Maybe $72,000 is chump change to you guys and you wouldn't mind working for a company that would do that to you.

Plus, even in a state that's "at-will", firing someone who prevails on a claim for wages is a really ****ing stupid thing to do.

I agree with you...I damn sure would exhaust all means within the company prior to going to outside help...

I don't know all of the details but it sounds like a slam dunk win against the company...and surely they would realize this fact...and at least split the difference...

[Frozen Sooner]

Without reading the whole contract, I'm not saying ****.

Anyone who is willing to comment on the effect of that language without reading the whole contract doesn't know ****.

Considering the amount of money in question, get a lawyer. Not an internet lawyer.

You talkin' to me?

[OutlandTrophy]

:pop:

[Midtowner]

You talkin' to me?

It's a general comment.

For all we know, there's a binding arbitration clause in there.

[Frozen Sooner]

It's a general comment.

For all we know, there's a binding arbitration clause in there.

True. Which is why I qualified every statement with "see a lawyer." Only reason I commented on the language of the clause is because certain people were quoting it and saying it gave the company the right to retroactively change his compensation plan. The plain language of that clause doesn't support that assertion.

[Midtowner]

True. Which is why I qualified every statement with "see a lawyer." Only reason I commented on the language of the clause is because certain people were quoting it and saying it gave the company the right to retroactively change his compensation plan. The plain language of that clause doesn't support that assertion.

Gotcha.

So generally speaking, you'd agree with my generally applicable statement that no one in this thread can really give good advice on the contract except that OP needs to take it to a lawyer in his jurisdiction; that these things are viewed as a whole, and generally speaking, no one in this thread, without having access to all of the relevant facts knows anything.

[Frozen Sooner]

Absolutely.

I took the OP as asking "Do I have a good reason to seek legal advice" not really "Give me legal advice," though it was phrased that way. Based on what he's told us, yeah, I think he needs legal advice.

[Midtowner]

We have an understanding.

[StoopTroup]

Without reading the whole contract, I'm not saying ****.

Anyone who is willing to comment on the effect of that language without reading the whole contract doesn't know ****.

Considering the amount of money in question, get a lawyer. Not an internet lawyer.

I'm thinking he's smart enough to consider that however what is in writing isn't going to change.

Why not try and negotiate payment and possibly further employment first before turning to legal Counsel?

Once you head that way....there's no turning back if they are forced to protect themselves? And that's a question because like you guys said...we don't know everything. I definitely think his using more than one head before making a decision is something he should consider. I'd hate to damage any long term deal for short term money but if it seems they are gonna try and just screw him out of his initial Deal and see if he'll just leave....hell....he has no choice but to seek counsel right?

[tcrb]

Glad you two worked that out. ;)

[Frozen Sooner]

Eh. I was just making sure that it didn't seem like I was telling TM he was definitely going to win or anything. If Midtown read it that way, then I needed to do some serious redactin'.

[StoopTroup]

Eh. I was just making sure that it didn't seem like I was telling TM he was definitely going to win or anything. If Midtown read it that way, then I needed to do some serious redactin'.
ahhhh..

[Midtowner]

Why not try and negotiate payment and possibly further employment first before turning to legal Counsel?

Why not find out what the strength of your position is before you start bargaining for $73,000 in commission?

You'd have to be a fool not to.

[OutlandTrophy]

I've quit a job over 43 bucks and change worth of mileage.

Being single had its advantages!

[StoopTroup]

Why not find out what the strength of your position is before you start bargaining for $73,000 in commission?

You'd have to be a fool not to.



Well....like I said before....it doesn't really matter the ink is on the agreement. If he needs to make a legal claim he can. I just think you have to ask them how they are going to resolve it before getting crazy about it. If they are crooks, they aren't gonna pay him anyway. If they are legitimate Business Folks you'd think they realize they need to resolve it.

[StoopTroup]

I've quit a job over 43 bucks and change worth of mileage.

Being single had its advantages!

I had one that paid me $0.06 on every dollar in sales and I was guaranteed Minimum Wage and Commissions didn't kick in until your covered your monthly Minimum. I made really good money. The folks that didn't cover that monthly base got the Glen Gerry / Glen Ross 3rd place deal. There were lots of sales contests and I never won anything like a set of Steak Knives....I usually won a Trip to the Suppliers and a few rounds of Golf and while away a Manager would cover your sales for you and take care of your regular Customers.

The day they came in and asked me to sit down and talk about the new Commission Structure I listened. I went straight out and started filling out job applications. The next day I put in my 2 weeks Notice even though I hadn't landed a job. During the next 2 weeks they went from asking me what they had to do to keep me to promising me a District Manager position, as my Manager retired and the guy that took his job had never won a sales contest once and had hit 3rd place in sales (not covering his base pay) twice that year. Now knowing they were in Trouble and i would be responsible for motivating guys like that...I passed. I probably made a mistake there and should have put that on my resume while looking for a job but like you I was single and able to just leave.

[yermom]

i'm guessing if you are due that much $$$ you made them even more

why **** with your salesmen?

if i got boned out of that much pay, i'd be updating the resume, but i wouldn't quit

i wouldn't sign anything that would forfeit that money away either though