Have the American people outlived their usefulness to the rich in the US? [Archive]

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The

6/27/2011, 12:29 PM

Are the American people obsolete? (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/07/27/american_people_obsolete)

The richest few don't need the rest of us as markets, soldiers or police anymore. Maybe we should all emigrate

Have the American people outlived their usefulness to the rich minority in the United States? A number of trends suggest that the answer may be yes.

In every industrial democracy since the end of World War II, there has been a social contract between the few and the many. In return for receiving a disproportionate amount of the gains from economic growth in a capitalist economy, the rich paid a disproportionate percentage of the taxes needed for public goods and a safety net for the majority.

In North America and Europe, the economic elite agreed to this bargain because they needed ordinary people as consumers and soldiers. Without mass consumption, the factories in which the rich invested would grind to a halt. Without universal conscription in the world wars, and selective conscription during the Cold War, the U.S. and its allies might have failed to defeat totalitarian empires that would have created a world order hostile to a market economy.

Globalization has eliminated the first reason for the rich to continue supporting this bargain at the nation-state level, while the privatization of the military threatens the other rationale.

The offshoring of industrial production means that many American investors and corporate managers no longer need an American workforce in order to prosper. They can enjoy their stream of profits from factories in China while shutting down factories in the U.S. And if Chinese workers have the impertinence to demand higher wages, American corporations can find low-wage labor in other countries.

This marks a historic change in the relationship between capital and labor in the U.S. The robber barons of the late 19th century generally lived near the American working class and could be threatened by strikes and frightened by the prospect of revolution. But rioting Chinese workers are not going to burn down New York City or march on the Hamptons.

What about markets? Many U.S. multinationals that have transferred production to other countries continue to depend on an American mass market. But that, too, may be changing. American consumers are tapped out, and as long as they are paying down their debts from the bubble years, private household demand for goods and services will grow slowly at best in the United States. In the long run, the fastest-growing consumer markets, like the fastest-growing labor markets, may be found in China, India and other developing countries.

This, too, marks a dramatic change. As bad as they were, the robber barons depended on the continental U.S. market for their incomes. The financier J.P. Morgan was not so much an international banker as a kind of industrial capitalist, organizing American industrial corporations that depended on predominantly domestic markets. He didn't make most of his money from investing in other countries.

In contrast, many of the highest-paid individuals on Wall Street have grown rich through activities that have little or no connection with the American economy. They can flourish even if the U.S. declines, as long as they can tap into growth in other regions of the world.

Thanks to deindustrialization, which is caused both by productivity growth and by corporate offshoring, the overwhelming majority of Americans now work in the non-traded domestic service sector. The jobs that have the greatest growth in numbers are concentrated in sectors like medical care and childcare.

Even here, the rich have options other than hiring American citizens. Wealthy liberals and wealthy conservatives agree on one thing: the need for more unskilled immigration to the U.S. This is hardly surprising, as the rich are far more dependent on immigrant servants than middle-class and working-class Americans are.

The late Patricia Buckley, the socialite wife of the late William F. Buckley Jr., once told me, "One simply can't live in Manhattan without at least three servants -- a cook and at least two maids." She had a British cook and Spanish-speaking maids. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg recently revealed the plutocratic perspective on immigration when he defended illegal immigration by asking, "Who takes care of the greens and the fairways in your golf course?"

The point is that, just as much of America's elite is willing to shut down every factory in the country if it is possible to open cheaper factories in countries like China, so much of the American ruling class would prefer not to hire their fellow Americans, even for jobs done on American soil, if less expensive and more deferential foreign nationals with fewer legal rights can be imported. Small wonder that proposals for "guest worker" programs are so popular in the U.S. establishment. Foreign "guest workers" laboring on American soil like H1Bs and H2Bs -- those with non-immigrant visas allowing technical or non-agriculture seasonal workers to be employed in the U.S. -- are latter-day coolies who do not have the right to vote.

If much of America's investor class no longer needs Americans either as workers or consumers, elite Americans might still depend on ordinary Americans to protect them, by serving in the military or police forces. Increasingly, however, America's professional army is being supplemented by contractors -- that is, mercenaries. And the elite press periodically publishes proposals to sell citizenship to foreigners who serve as soldiers in an American Foreign Legion. It is probably only a matter of time before some earnest pundit proposes to replace American police officers with foreign guest-worker mercenaries as well.

Offshoring and immigration, then, are severing the link between the fate of most Americans and the fate of the American rich. A member of the elite can make money from factories in China that sell to consumers in India, while relying entirely or almost entirely on immigrant servants at one of several homes around the country. With a foreign workforce for the corporations policed by brutal autocracies and non-voting immigrant servants in the U.S., the only thing missing is a non-voting immigrant mercenary army, whose legions can be deployed in foreign wars without creating grieving parents, widows and children who vote in American elections.

If the American rich increasingly do not depend for their wealth on American workers and American consumers or for their safety on American soldiers or police officers, then it is hardly surprising that so many of them should be so hostile to paying taxes to support the infrastructure and the social programs that help the majority of the American people. The rich don't need the rest anymore.

To be sure, wealthy humanitarians might take pity on their economically obsolescent fellow citizens. But they no longer have any personal economic incentive to do so. Besides, philanthropists may be inclined to devote most of their charity to the desperate and destitute of other countries rather than to their fellow Americans.
If most Americans are no longer needed by the American rich, then perhaps the United States should consider a policy adopted by the aristocracies and oligarchies of many countries with surplus populations in the past: the promotion of emigration. The rich might consent to a one-time tax to bribe middle-class and working-class Americans into departing the U.S. for other lands, and bribing foreign countries to accept them, in order to be alleviated from a high tax burden in the long run.

Where would a few hundred million ex-Americans go? The answer is obvious: to the emerging markets where the work and investment are found. That will show all those American union members who complain that their jobs have been outsourced to China. Let them move to China themselves and compete, instead of complaining!
Needless to say, the Chinese and Indians might resist the idea of an influx of vast numbers of downwardly mobile North American workers. But like American capitalists, Chinese and Indian capitalists might learn that ethnic diversity impedes unionization, while the mass immigration of North Americans to East and South Asia would keep wages in those regions competitively low for another few decades at least.

Once emptied of superfluous citizens, the U.S. could become a kind of giant Aspen for the small population of the super-rich and their non-voting immigrant retainers. Many environmentalists might approve of the depopulation of North America, because sprawling suburbs would soon be reclaimed by the wilderness. And deficit hawks would be pleased as well. The middle-class masses dependent on Social Security and Medicare would have departed the country, leaving only the self-sufficient rich and foreign guest workers without any benefits, other than the charity of their employers.
Of course there are alternative options, which would not require the departure of most Americans from America for new lives on distant shores. One would be a new social contract, in which the American people, through representatives whom they actually control, would ordain that American corporations are chartered to create jobs in the U.S. for American workers, and if that does not interest their shareholders and managers then they can do without legal privileges granted by the sovereign people, like limited liability.

The American people also could put a stop to any thought of an American Foreign Legion and declare, through their representatives, that a nation of citizen-workers will be protected by citizen-soldiers, whether professionals or, in emergencies, conscripts. The American people, in other words, could insist that the United States will be a democratic republican nation-state, not a post-national rentier oligarchy.

But restoring democratic nationalism in the U.S. would inconvenience America's affluent minority. So instead of making trouble, maybe most Americans should just find a new continent to call home.

Bourbon St Sooner

6/27/2011, 12:41 PM

vapid and pointless.

My Opinion Matters

6/27/2011, 12:42 PM

Indeed. Not one mention of the real threats to America: Mooslem boogeymen and homo marriage.

CrimsonCream

6/27/2011, 12:50 PM

Indeed. Not one mention of the real threats to America: Mooslem boogeymen and homo marriage.

....and Obama. Obama is a real danger.

Not saying the Republicans are great shakes either but this turd is a real danger to this Country.

This guy has increased the National Deficit by $4.5 trillion in three years, does not lead but rather be a ceremonial President with everybody kissing his @ss, high unemployment, will not defend Arizona's borders and is a morally corrupt, unethical son of a b!tch. (See payoffs and kickbacks.)

Jacie

6/27/2011, 12:50 PM

If they are through with Americans they might want to find another place to live.

Otherwise, they risk being the first against the wall when the revolution comes . . .

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 12:56 PM

....and Obama. Obama is a real danger.

Not saying the Republicans are great shakes either but this turd is a real danger to this Country.

This guy has increased the National Deficit by $4.5 trillion in three years, does not lead but rather be a ceremonial President with everybody kissing his @ss, high unemployment, will not defend Arizona's borders and is a morally corrupt, unethical son of a b!tch. (See payoffs and kickbacks.)He is doing his part to help and encourage the rich to emigrate. This is a GREAT thread.

3rdgensooner

6/27/2011, 12:59 PM

Indeed. Not one mention of the real threats to America: Mooslem boogeymen and homo marriage.Don't forget about the homo marijuana.

....and Obama. Obama is a real danger.
I think he covered that with Mooslem boogeymen.

My Opinion Matters

6/27/2011, 01:06 PM

Don't forget about the homo marijuana.

I think he covered that with Mooslem boogeymen.

This thread doesn't even want to make me want to laugh, it makes me wants to cry.

3rdgensooner

6/27/2011, 01:08 PM

This thread doesn't even want to make me want to laugh, it makes me wants to cry.How does one determine what a thread wants, its true desires?

DIB

6/27/2011, 01:09 PM

The government is literally fist-****ing the middle class into oblivion, but at least them faggy mooslims cain't smoke marijuana at their faggy wedding reception.

'Merica!

The

6/27/2011, 01:11 PM

This thread doesn't even want to make me want to laugh, it makes me wants to cry.

True dat.

What's really funny/sad are all these bootstrappy real 'mericans complaining about people "depending on the government", while insisting that we should all rely on private industry for our well being.

Milton Friedman has done more to destroy the concept of democracy than any other person in history.

soonerchk

6/27/2011, 01:11 PM

This thread made me dizzy and I didn't even read the OP!!!

My Opinion Matters

6/27/2011, 01:35 PM

This thread is like teasing your buddy for having blood in his stool for a couple of years, then being with him the day you find out he has colon cancer. Or something.

I'm as bad at metaphors as, like, whatever.

Blue

6/27/2011, 01:37 PM

True dat.

What's really funny/sad are all these bootstrappy real 'mericans complaining about people "depending on the government", while insisting that we should all rely on private industry for our well being.

Milton Friedman has done more to destroy the concept of democracy than any other person in history.

Commie.

MsProudSooner

6/27/2011, 01:38 PM

The government is literally fist-****ing the middle class into oblivion, but at least them faggy mooslims cain't smoke marijuana at their faggy wedding reception.

'Merica!

Very true. Unfortunate, but true.

Bourbon St Sooner

6/27/2011, 01:40 PM

Apparently the Dodgers filing bankruptcy may screw Manny Ramirez out of the $20M or so they owe him. Now shirley there's somethinig we can all celebrate.

The

6/27/2011, 01:42 PM

Commie.

Fascist.

EnragedOUfan

6/27/2011, 01:45 PM

....and Obama. Obama is a real danger.

Not saying the Republicans are great shakes either but this turd is a real danger to this Country.

This guy has increased the National Deficit by $4.5 trillion in three years, does not lead but rather be a ceremonial President with everybody kissing his @ss, high unemployment, will not defend Arizona's borders and is a morally corrupt, unethical son of a b!tch. (See payoffs and kickbacks.)

So the deficit then was around 9.5/10 trillion when Bush left office?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 01:45 PM

What's really funny/sad are all these bootstrappy real 'mericans complaining about people "depending on the government", while insisting that we should all rely on private industry for our well being. They act like freedom is important in America, and that a private sector is essential to economic health. HOW LAME, haha.

Ronald Reagan and Milton Friedman have done more to destroy the concept of socialism/communism than any other people in modern times.FIFY

pphilfran

6/27/2011, 01:48 PM

What if I am rich and old...do I have to off myself?

EnragedOUfan

6/27/2011, 01:51 PM

This country in my opinion has gone to sh#t.......If you're a state worker or federal worker, a job that is a prestige job, everyone wants to attack your benefits because they're that much better than a private job. If a welder in the civil service makes 20 plus an hour welding air plane parts compared to a welder who makes 12 an hour welding up oil rigs, it has gotten to the point that everyone believes that Government welder deserves pay/benefit cuts due the inequality to the private sector which to me is bullsh#t.....

The

6/27/2011, 01:53 PM

They act like freedom is important in America

"If we took away women's right to vote, we'd never have to worry about another Democrat president".-ANN COULTER

PTOFY.

Your blind faith in the wealthy and unrestrained greed is truly sad.

stevo

6/27/2011, 01:57 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v424/gen3sooner/smilies/badassbuddy_com-add.gif

3rdgensooner

6/27/2011, 01:59 PM

"If we took away women's right to vote, we'd never have to worry about another Democrat president".-ANN COULTER That Ann Coulter, she's a hoot!

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/9302/261520x650.jpg

okie52

6/27/2011, 02:08 PM

The

6/27/2011, 02:09 PM

Hmmm...and I thought you were for borderless labor.

Borderless everything.

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 02:12 PM

The just wants to enjoy his Lebanese midget scat porn in peace. Do not tell him what to do.

okie52

6/27/2011, 02:14 PM

Borderless everything.

The article doesn't seem to agree with those sentiments.

The

6/27/2011, 02:15 PM

The just wants to enjoy his Lebanese midget scat porn in peace. Do not tell him what to do.

Tru dis.

Chuck Bao

6/27/2011, 02:15 PM

I completely agree with the article. Thanks for posting it, The. And, spek.

I have been saying this for some time. WE HAVE BEEN DISCOUNTED. There is no escape from that very sad fact.

I have been telling my nieces for more than five years that they have to really study hard and get into the best schools and try to escape this discounting by joining the upper management.

But Americans are so insular in their thinking. Politicians make promises that they can't keep. Most seem to go with the philosophy of: "If it sells well today, then sell it".

Building a big bad wall along the border with Mexico is not going to help. Arresting company owners who employ illegal immigrants could help, temporarily. But anyone who thinks that it will fix the problem is just delusional.

The rich really did sell us out.

CrimsonCream

6/27/2011, 02:15 PM

So the deficit then was around 9.5/10 trillion when Bush left office?

Yes.

So we should just keep increasing it?

The

6/27/2011, 02:17 PM

John Steinbeck once said that 'socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.'

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 02:20 PM

The politicians really did sell us out.FIFY

The

6/27/2011, 02:20 PM

FIFY

They are the rich as well.

okie52

6/27/2011, 02:20 PM

tommieharris91

6/27/2011, 02:25 PM

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 02:27 PM

They are the rich as well.They are the source of most all exploitation, since it is they who have the power of force.

CrimsonCream

6/27/2011, 02:28 PM

The rich really did sell us out.

As The said, as well as the rich and the politicians and in many cases they are one and the same.

It is a travesty that the honest politicians get so fed up that they quit and go back home. We then are left with the Pelosis, Reids, Dodds, Franks, etc.

I don't think this Country would have won WWII with this Administration and Congress.

TitoMorelli

6/27/2011, 02:33 PM

Thomas Friedman has done more to destroy the concept of democracy than any other person in history.

FIFY

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 02:33 PM

As The said, as well as the rich and the politicians and in many cases they are one and the same.

It is a travesty that the honest politicians get so fed up that they quit and go back home. We then are left with the Pelosis, Reids, Dodds, Franks, etc.

I don't think this Country would have won WWII with this Administration and Congress.The rich that are corrupt get nasty things done as a result of actions from unethical politicians. Without the unethical politicians, our problems would be a very small percentage of what we now have.

The

6/27/2011, 02:33 PM

They are the source of most all exploitation, since it is they who have the power of force.

Any politician that actually wields power is thoroughly vetted by those with money.

You could say that we just call bribery "campaign contributions", but that is too naive. It is more accurate to say that politicians are employees of the wealthy. They are a tool to not only legitimize their interests, but to distract us poor schlobs with "issues", to give us a feeling of participation, when in reality we're just going back and forth between different brands of the same nonsense.

StoopTroup

6/27/2011, 02:33 PM

Yes.

So we should just keep increasing it?

What does it matter if you are gonna have a job to help pay taxes and get it paid off? The rich don't need you. They can buy their Sat Phones from overseas, their cars from overseas and anything else they need, even food. They can get people do do anything for hardly more than food. and if they get sick they can just find someone who isn't. If they need a Dentist or a Doctor they can fly to France, drive to Canada. If they need drugs....same thing....

Oh wait.....if they need someone to protect them....they'll have plenty of folks who've seen action and will be able to defend themselves until the US Military takes over and begins to help straighten out the masses and then the lazy bastards that got us into this mess will take the damn jobs they are offered so they can buy food from the Company Store.

CrimsonCream

6/27/2011, 02:38 PM

Any politician that actually wields power is thoroughly vetted by those with money.

Where are all of the Jefferson Smiths?

TitoMorelli

6/27/2011, 02:39 PM

Kinky Friedman has done more to destroy the concept of democracy than any other person in history.

Really FIFY.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 02:42 PM

Any politician that actually wields power is thoroughly vetted by those with money.

You could say that we just call bribery "campaign contributions", but that is too naive. It is more accurate to say that politicians are employees of the wealthy. They are a tool to not only legitimize their interests, but to distract us poor schlobs with "issues", to give us a feeling of participation, when in reality we're just going back and forth between different brands of the same nonsense.The politicians have the power of law and enforcement. No choices available.

The

6/27/2011, 02:47 PM

The politicians have the power of law and enforcement. No choices available.

Do you honestly believe that politicians are some sort of independent cabal? That they can operate without large sums of money? And that these poor, downtrodden global conglomerates are being held hostage and must donate tribute to someone that has been elected from a wide field of qualified candidates, whom best represents his constituency?

Like, this is your for reals world view?

StoopTroup

6/27/2011, 02:48 PM

I told you Pot wouldn't be legal.....lol

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 02:51 PM

Do you honestly believe that politicians are some sort of independent cabal? That they can operate without large sums of money? And that these poor, downtrodden global conglomerates are being held hostage and must donate tribute to someone that has been elected from a wide field of qualified candidates, whom best represents his constituency?

Like, this is your for reals world view?You, for some reason, do not seem to grasp the power of government. Prolly as a result of a lifetime of brainwashing. You (unfortunately) aren't alone out there.

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 02:53 PM

Money > Government

Rush, stop being obtuse. The government is made of individuals. These individuals are swayed by corporate moolah. This is not a guess, but fact.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 02:55 PM

Money > Government

Rush, stop being obtuse. The government is made of individuals. These individuals are swayed by corporate moolah. This is not a guess, but fact.Without the power of government officials on the take, there could be no swaying...CAPICHE?

Without a viable private sector, there would be MUCH less incentive to create economic activity. Politicians need to do the jobs they have signed on for, not proceed to conduct dishonest, manipulative government.

The

6/27/2011, 02:56 PM

You, for some reason, do not seem to grasp the power of government. Prolly as a result of a lifetime of brainwashing. You (unfortunately) aren't alone out there.

Really? So, it never occurred the wealthiest corporations in the world, those that also control the media and world finance, that they could perhaps run someone for office that was primarily focused on benefiting the corporation?
That these poor companies couldn't shape the discourse through the media to get the people that they wanted elected, whom would be working for them?

All of these bright people, and that never occurred to them?

These people, who make billions off of the government?

Really?

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 02:57 PM

Without the power of government? What on earth are you talking about? If this government fell, then they would put another one in place. You make it sound like this particular incarnation of governance is immutable. That is not the case.

DIB

6/27/2011, 02:58 PM

Money > Government

Rush, stop being obtuse. The government is made of individuals. These individuals are swayed by corporate moolah. This is not a guess, but fact.

http://thumbnails.hulu.com/17/249/84355_512x288_generated__kWkZOVkyqUSR0kntoghc9g.jp g

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 02:58 PM

Thank you, DIB. That was a helpful demonstration.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 03:02 PM

Really? So, it never occurred the wealthiest corporations in the world, those that also control the media and world finance, that they could perhaps run someone for office that was primarily focused on benefiting the corporation?
That these poor companies couldn't shape the discourse through the media to get the people that they wanted elected, whom would be working for them?

All of these bright people, and that never occurred to them?

These people, who make billions off of the government?

Really?Who, in your view, is pulling the democrats' strings?

The

6/27/2011, 03:04 PM

Who, in your view, is pulling the democrats' strings?

The same people as the republicans.

Democrats and republicans are two different PR campaigns for the exact same product.

You are given bull**** to whargarble and rage about on both sides, but what happens in this country is exactly what the 1% want to happen.

Mississippi Sooner

6/27/2011, 03:06 PM

DIB

6/27/2011, 03:07 PM

The same people as the republicans.

Democrats and republicans are two different PR campaigns for the exact same product.

You are given bull**** to whargarble and rage about on both sides, but what happens in this country is exactly what the 1% want to happen.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cPgSmqconXs/S86ebnxi80I/AAAAAAAAAD0/P864UGggaPg/s1600/wharrgarbl.jpg

The

6/27/2011, 03:07 PM

As a member of the 1%, that really stings.

I'm not talking about motorcycle clubs, killer.

Mississippi Sooner

6/27/2011, 03:08 PM

I'm not talking about motorcycle clubs, killer.

Well then, I'll just back out of this thread now.

pphilfran

6/27/2011, 03:10 PM

Well then, I'll just back out of this thread now.

Nooooooo!

I wanna see a word fight between two of societies elite....

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 03:12 PM

The same people as the republicans.

Democrats and republicans are two different PR campaigns for the exact same product.

You are given bull**** to whargarble and rage about on both sides, but what happens in this country is exactly what the 1% want to happen.a RINO is a corrupt, socialized republican, who sides with the democrats most of the time. Who, in your opinion, is ultimately responsible for Obamacare, Cap and Trade, the Porkulus, Quantitative Easing #1, 2 and maybe more, sending our troops to fight for the Muslim Brotherhood in Libya, the announced targeting for destruction of the Coal Industry, etc.?

The

6/27/2011, 03:15 PM

OhU1

6/27/2011, 03:21 PM

Money > Government

Rush, stop being obtuse.

http://www.scene-stealers.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/shawshank38.jpeg

The Profit

6/27/2011, 03:29 PM

As a member of the 1%, that really stings.

Are you really from Mississippi, and part of the 1 percent? Really?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 03:30 PM

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cPgSmqconXs/S86ebnxi80I/AAAAAAAAAD0/P864UGggaPg/s1600/wharrgarbl.jpgI briefly wondered where that one came from. beauty!

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 03:30 PM

a RINO is a corrupt, socialized republican, who sides with the democrats most of the time. Who, in your opinion, is ultimately responsible for Obamacare, Cap and Trade, the Porkulus, Quantitative Easing #1, 2 and maybe more, sending our troops to fight for the Muslim Brotherhood in Libya, the announced targeting for destruction of the Coal Industry, etc.?
Let's go down the list...

Obamacare - Insurance companies
Porkulus - Banking industry
QE1+2 - Banking industry
Troops to Libya - Defense contractors
Coal destruction - Oil companies

Sure, the democrats are in power right now, but with the exception of Obamacare these would have gone through no matter what. Have you noticed that the majority of Republicans are "RINO"s? And that the majority of Democrats are "DINO"s? That's because it doesn't matter what letter they have. They serve the same masters.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 03:32 PM

Is this even English?

Seriously. Your worldview is a symptom of this. You sound just like an Apple fanboi arguing against Android phones.What, you don't want to answer those questions. What a surprise!!!

soonerscuba

6/27/2011, 03:35 PM

Is this even English?

Seriously. Your worldview is a symptom of this. You sound just like an Apple fanboi arguing against Android phones.Sometimes he sneaks things that never happened and gets all hot about it. Like carbon cap and trade, a program that doesn't exist because of the very Senate Republicans he hates. I can understand though, after Bush privatized SS via authoritarian, Alinskyian tactics, why wouldn't Obama and VP George Soros do the same thing?

Mississippi Sooner

6/27/2011, 03:37 PM

Are you really from Mississippi, and part of the 1 percent? Really?

The 1% in Mississippi. Maybe. Hard to say because they aren't very good at math down here.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 03:39 PM

Let's go down the list...

Obamacare - Insurance companies
Porkulus - Banking industry
QE1+2 - Banking industry
Troops to Libya - Defense contractors
Coal destruction - Oil companies

Sure, the democrats are in power right now, but with the exception of Obamacare these would have gone through no matter what. Have you noticed that the majority of Republicans are "RINO"s? And that the majority of Democrats are "DINO"s? That's because it doesn't matter what letter they have. They serve the same masters.and, you will probably continue to believe it's not the politicians who are wholly responsible for all that destruction.

I have NO reason to believe a majority of R's are RINOS, and ALMOST EVERY reason to believe that I WISH a significnt # of democrats were DINOS.

IOW, GET REAL

okie52

6/27/2011, 03:41 PM

Let's go down the list...

Obamacare - Insurance companies
Porkulus - Banking industry
QE1+2 - Banking industry
Troops to Libya - Defense contractors
Coal destruction - Oil companies

Sure, the democrats are in power right now, but with the exception of Obamacare these would have gone through no matter what. Have you noticed that the majority of Republicans are "RINO"s? And that the majority of Democrats are "DINO"s? That's because it doesn't matter what letter they have. They serve the same masters.

No coal destruction has gone through congress....it even kept the dems from passing cap and trade. Now the EPA is another matter...better to look at big agri like Archer midland Daniels which got ethanol a favored fuel status under cap and trade while oil, NG and coal were going to take it in the shorts.

Of course, there is always "CLEAN COAL".

yermom

6/27/2011, 03:41 PM

if the majority of R's are RINO's

doesn't that just make them R's?

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 03:42 PM

and, you will probably continue to believe it's not the politicians who are wholly responsible for all that destruction.

I have NO reason to believe a majority of R's are RINOS, and ALMOST EVERY reason to believe that I WISH a significnt # of democrats were DINOS.

IOW, GET REAL
Then why are you on here consistently complaining about party leadership, party stances, most of the prominent party members, and all things related to the party? It's like you're a republican that hates all the republicans. Come to think of it, I don't know that you've ever actually said anything that you're for, just that you're against whatever is going on. God, that must really suck, Rush. Sorry...

And yes, I believe that the people who created those things (some of which are not real) were swayed by corporate entities that would have swayed people of the other party had they been in power at the time.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 03:46 PM

Then why are you on here consistently complaining about party leadership, party stances, most of the prominent party members, and all things related to the party? It's like you're a republican that hates all the republicans. Come to think of it, I don't know that you've ever actually said anything that you're for, just that you're against whatever is going on. God, that must really suck, Rush. Sorry...

And yes, I believe that the people who created those things (some of which are not real) were swayed by corporate entities that would have swayed people of the other party had they been in power at the time.I doubt you really think what you said there. It's like you have a short memory of what I've said. No problema.

picasso

6/27/2011, 03:47 PM

I didn't get the memo where socialism has been a raging success.

The

6/27/2011, 03:47 PM

I didn't get the memo where socialism has been a raging success.

Google Sweden.

picasso

6/27/2011, 03:49 PM

Google Sweden.

Awesome. So in a few decades we could become Sweden?

Where do I sign up?

The

6/27/2011, 03:51 PM

Awesome. So in a few decades we could become Sweden?

Where do I sign up?

lemonparty.org.

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 03:51 PM

Well to be honest I spent about a year with you on ignore. Perhaps you made your ideals known then. I see most of your posts in the vein of

Poster A: I think this.

Rush: So that means you also support that? How sad.

Poster A: Not what I said, jerk.

Rush: Personal attack. Typical left-leaning waste!

Poster A: I am mad. You are a fascist.

Rush: Wrong again! You are the one that said you liked this.

Which, to me, never really says anything other than argument. Have you actually told JM what candidates you like/why you like them? If you have, I have missed it and I apologize for that. We should not have to infer what your preferences are, though.

yermom

6/27/2011, 03:52 PM

he's waiting for Rush to run and clean up this country once and for all

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 03:58 PM

I don't think that's fair, though. I haven't seen him quote Rush in a long time. He's obviously passionate, but I think much of the angst comes from nobody really knowing what he likes. Just that he doesn't like whatever it is that you do. Or thinks it isn't "R" enough. Somehow.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 04:03 PM

I didn't get the memo where socialism has been a raging success."The" started this thread condemning the rich. He's an admitted anarchist. I wonder how he expects to benefit by being an anarchist.

The

6/27/2011, 04:04 PM

"The" started this thread condemning the rich. He's an admitted anarchist. I wonder how he expects to benefit by being an anarchist.

You think oligarchy benefits anyone other than the oligarchy?

Show your work, please.

BTW, do you know it's a felony in Oklahoma for me to fly a red flag in front of my house? True story.

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 04:05 PM

We've established this. He just wants to be left alone with his Lebanese midget scat porn. :P

3rdgensooner

6/27/2011, 04:05 PM

The is rich.

True story.

The

6/27/2011, 04:06 PM

The is rich.

True story.

YOU'RE BLOWING MY COVER.

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 04:07 PM

If you're a true anarchist you can defend yourself and know how to farm or have a skill you can barter for food. Do you?

And no, hooking is not a... well, no... I guess that would count.

The

6/27/2011, 04:09 PM

If you're a true anarchist you can defend yourself and know how to farm or have a skill you can barter for food. Do you?

And no, hooking is not a... well, no... I guess that would count.

I have guns. Lots and lots of guns.

Bourbon St Sooner

6/27/2011, 04:10 PM

You think oligarchy benefits anyone other than the oligarchy?

Show your work, please.

BTW, do you know it's a felony in Oklahoma for me to fly a red flag in front of my house? True story.

So you agree that big government is bad?

And, you can't fly an OU flag in front of your house in Oklahoma? Wierd.

My Opinion Matters

6/27/2011, 04:11 PM

This thread doesn't even want to make me want to laugh, it makes me wants to cry.

Three hours and no one has bothered to check on me? Eff all y'all. :mad: :(

The

6/27/2011, 04:12 PM

So you agree that big government is bad?

I believe that if left unrestrained, big business is infinitely worse.

And, you can't fly an OU flag in front of your house in Oklahoma? Wierd.
Any person in this state, who shall carry or cause to be carried, or publicly display any red flag or other emblem or banner, indicating disloyalty to the Government of the United States or a belief in anarchy or other political doctrines or beliefs, whose objects are either the disruption or destruction of organized government, or the defiance of the laws of the United States or of the State of Oklahoma, shall be deemed guilty of a felony, and upon conviction shall be punished by imprisonment in the Penitentiary of the State of Oklahoma for a term not exceeding ten (10) years, or by a fine not exceeding One Thousand Dollars ($1,000.00) or by both such imprisonment and fine.

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 04:15 PM

Hmm... I think even at its worst, big business is better than people like Pol Pot...

The

6/27/2011, 04:16 PM

Hmm... I think even at its worst, big business is better than people like Pol Pot...

True, forgot about Pol.

I was thinking more along the lines of pre FDA meat packing and pollution what not.

GKeeper316

6/27/2011, 04:17 PM

John Steinbeck once said that 'socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.'

and he was right...

most americans still believe the lie.

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 04:17 PM

Yes, combined with the slave labor before unions, it was pretty dang bad. But even that bad, it's better than ghettos and labor/death camps.

The

6/27/2011, 04:18 PM

Yes, combined with the slave labor before unions, it was pretty dang bad. But even that bad, it's better than ghettos and labor/death camps.

Did it really take this long to Godwin this thread?

I'm impressed....

3rdgensooner

6/27/2011, 04:19 PM

people like Pol Pot...[Insert frankensooner reference here]?

The

6/27/2011, 04:19 PM

[Insert frankensooner reference here]?

http://vinteeage.com/product-images/clever-girl-t-shirt-vintage-t-shirt-review-snorg-tees-snorg-tees.gif

Bourbon St Sooner

6/27/2011, 04:20 PM

I believe that if left unrestrained, big business is infinitely worse.

So, the fact that big gov't has always shown itself to be in bed with big business, means that you dislike big gov't. Good. We agree.

The

6/27/2011, 04:21 PM

So, the fact that big gov't has always shown itself to be in bed with big business, means that you dislike big gov't. Good. We agree.

Go on...

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 04:22 PM

[Insert frankensooner reference here]?
Wrong pole. :D Plus, I always thought it was pronounce "Pall". Am I wrong?

And The, I believe this Godwin to be justified, as we were referencing dictatorships.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 04:23 PM

Obamacare - Insurance companies
Porkulus - Banking industry
QE1+2 - Banking industry
Troops to Libya - Defense contractors
Coal destruction - Oil companies

Sure, the democrats are in power right now, but with the exception of Obamacare these would have gone through no matter what. Have you noticed that the majority of Republicans are "RINO"s? And that the majority of Democrats are "DINO"s? That's because it doesn't matter what letter they have. They serve the same masters.America's oil companies want more drilling, into those humongous areas that are politically placed off-limits, not destruction of the coal industry. A lot of the Porkulus was spent to pay off democrat campaign contributors, including public unions. Obama is still holding a lot of that money to use in the '12 erection.

Troops to Libya. You have the audacity to blame the private sector for that!!! QE1 &2, God only knows why the "administration" wants to pile up all that debt, while crippling the private sector at the same time. O-effing-Bamacare, pretty much just treason.

What's sad is that deep down, you HAVE TO know these. If not, better start your edumacation from scratch.

49r

6/27/2011, 04:31 PM

I love how angst-y RLimc gets in these threads.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 04:33 PM

I love how angst-y RLimc gets in these threads.Hard to sit through all the foolish libtard crap without experiencing angst.

tommieharris91

6/27/2011, 04:33 PM

This thread needs more soonercruiser.

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 04:35 PM

I'm confused. Are you refuting points or just complaining? And yes, I believe that a lot of our current affinity for "military operations" is due to pressure from defense contractors, as well as oil companies who can't drill here because of activists with big pockets.

You said it right there with the stimulus package (heh) being used to pay off campaign contributors. That's exactly what we're talking about. Bush did it once as well, but Obama doubled him up. Doesn't matter which side it is, they're going to pay back their "supporters".

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 04:37 PM

Hard to sit through all the foolish libtard crap without experiencing angst.
What foolish libtard crap? There are quite literally no liberals in this thread. We are all either conservatives, neo-cons, libertarians, or anarchists. I guess yermom counts as a liberal, but he's just here to troll. :D

Mississippi Sooner

6/27/2011, 04:38 PM

My outrage is making me pitch a tent.

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 04:44 PM

My outrage is making me pitch a tent.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/117/689/weirdest_boehner.jpg

StoopTroup

6/27/2011, 04:56 PM

Gov. Rick Perry was just on Glenn Beck's Show before he's cancelled and says that Texas will be ready to bale out America when you losers are ready to start running things right in your State.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 05:05 PM

NormanPride

6/27/2011, 05:45 PM

Without crooked politicos, the crime doesn't happen. Maybe you ARE starting to get it.
On this we agree. But I believe most of them are crooked and, beyond that, the system is designed so that to stay longer (and thus have more power) you must become more crooked. It is a sad state of affairs.

SpankyNek

6/27/2011, 05:46 PM

Without crooked politicos, the crime doesn't happen. Maybe you ARE starting to get it.

What you are missing, is that Money turns saints to sinners.....it's the vig.

yermom

6/27/2011, 05:47 PM

Without crooked politicos, the crime doesn't happen. Maybe you ARE starting to get it.

please don't act like you have some monopoly on what is right and good in the world with your neo-con ilk

Blue

6/27/2011, 05:49 PM

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 05:50 PM

please don't act like you have some monopoly on what is right and good in the world with your neo-con ilkyeah, and you're just a little fly-in-the-soup kumbaya spoiler.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 05:51 PM

What you are missing, is that Money turns saints to sinners.....it's the vig. ah, equal poverty for all? It's the libtard solution for what ails us.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/27/2011, 05:54 PM

SpankyNek

6/27/2011, 05:56 PM

It seems mostly everyone here agrees that big business and big brother have gotten way too cozy and big. What we may disagree on is how to go about fixing it.

Capitalism works imo, when you let businesses fail. A couple years ago we should have taken our medicine. History shows that its a natural part of capitalism to go through p[eaks and troughs (depressions) every 80 years or so. But we didn't want to do that. So we "used socialist principles to save the free market" (still can't get over that gem, Bush).

Companies should've tanked and billionaires shouldn't have been bailed out. Now we're ****ed. A world of hurt is coming due to govt kicking the can down the road. Headline on Drudge "Dollar to lose reserve status in next decades". Not good.

Capitalism, Socialism, Communism? None will work as long as corrupt greedy people are in power to exploit them.

All would be better than the current Fascist Oligarchy.
This is true...but, if humanity is inherently greedy, isn't the most ethical decision for an economy the one that deflects liability and divides wealth among the largest portion of the populace?

Just as bad as the bailing out of the Financial Institutions was Wall Streets use of the "circuit breaker" during the horrific trade nosedive last year. There should be no way that anyone can close the market, regardless of what it is doing. The illegal act by wall street has now actually become Law....continuing to save us from ourselves is delaying our transformation. (This is because the Greedy are holding on for all they are worth...the majority of Americans could easily drop below the poverty line very soon...and it won't be only the "Lazy" that are out of work...it will be half of everyone.

XingTheRubicon

6/27/2011, 06:07 PM

The top 1% have done this since the beginning of humans.

Currently, in the US, we have the wealthiest poor people in the history of civilization.

All those political speeches decades ago about "a chicken in every pot" have come full circle.

Now, I know this thread was concerning the shrinking middle class and the evil 1%ers, but I don't think this multi-millenium streak of the rich favoring money and power is going to stop any time soon. Work hard, carve out your own piece of the pie and be gracious that you had the opportunity to do so. I don't appreciate most of what the ultra-rich do, but what good does it do to bitch about it. It's not going to change.

SpankyNek

6/27/2011, 06:10 PM

yermom

6/27/2011, 06:12 PM

or they start forming mobs and robbing Sears ;)

okie52

6/27/2011, 06:15 PM

When people get angry enough, stuff like the French Revolution happens.

Think the Tea Party has been successful? wait until 30% of America is homeless and starving, then we will see a true grass roots movement...will you be on the side of the common man or the government robots?

We were just about there in the 30's...but so was the rest of the world.

I won't be on the side of 90% tax brackets.

SpankyNek

6/27/2011, 06:16 PM

We were just about there in the 30's...but so was the rest of the world.

I won't be on the side of 90% tax brackets.

That's what saved us before....along with the Government telling private industry what they HAD to produce.

XingTheRubicon

6/27/2011, 06:17 PM

When people get angry enough, stuff like the French Revolution happens.

Think the Tea Party has been successful? wait until 30% of America is without cable and spinners, then we will see a true grass roots movement...will you be on the side of the people who perpetually bitch and moan or the people who are willing to work?

F

okie52

6/27/2011, 06:21 PM

That's what saved us before....along with the Government telling private industry what they HAD to produce.

If we hit 30% we won't be alone...again.

49r

6/27/2011, 06:22 PM

yeah, and you're just a little fly-in-the-soup kumbaya spoiler.

ah, equal poverty for all? It's the libtard solution for what ails us.

RLimc. King of the non-sequitur!

SpankyNek

6/27/2011, 06:25 PM

F
I will be able to self sustain...will you?

People will be working on their own to supply for their own, not in servitude to others.

There will be 10 times the looting than there will be plowing (I am guessing both sides will bitch, regardless of the amount of work they are doing)

Are you willing to wear the Yoke, Xing...I guess I might could use ya. (Better not bitch about it, though)

yermom

6/27/2011, 06:25 PM

That's what saved us before....along with the Government telling private industry what they HAD to produce.

we also built the interstate highway system instead of having the rebuild the whole country after the war

XingTheRubicon

6/27/2011, 07:14 PM

I will be able to self sustain...will you?

People will be working on their own to supply for their own, not in servitude to others.

There will be 10 times the looting than there will be plowing (I am guessing both sides will bitch, regardless of the amount of work they are doing)

Are you willing to wear the Yoke, Xing...I guess I might could use ya. (Better not bitch about it, though)

rather starve than live in Houston

I have to say, in defense of your fairy tale doomsday scenario that it would be fun to borrow Dean's Mossberg riot gun and go to the Homeland on Danforth and Bryant mow down looters. Nobody gets between me and my balance bars and mountain dew. I almost hope it happens now;)

SpankyNek

6/27/2011, 07:22 PM

rather starve than live in Houston

I have to say, in defense of your fairy tale doomsday scenario that it would be fun to borrow Dean's Mossberg riot gun and go to the Homeland on Danforth and Bryant mow down looters. Nobody gets between me and my balance bars and mountain dew. I almost hope it happens now;)

You think that life just happens after the DOW hits 300? The outlook is rather bleak, but the establishment government will be happy to hear that you believe that everything is, really, all right.

I lol'd after reading how you would love to mow down looters, followed by the prayer in your sig...In Jesus Name, INDEED!

jkjsooner

6/27/2011, 07:51 PM

Chuck, the people who moved factories overseas created a problem for themselves too. They made counterfeiting of their goods much easier as well. It's pretty sad when many managers think that allowing unscheduled production runs is a good thing.

I think in the long run American corporations are committing suicide. Their own relevance will deteriorate along with our standard of living. There is no reason for IBM or Nike to exist if there is no longer an American dream. The end game for Indians and Chinese is not to work for their American Overlords.

However, before we get to that point I think India and China will find out that you can't become a global superpower by simply being the lowest cost provider - and when it boils down to it that is all that China/India have.

yermom

6/27/2011, 07:52 PM

well, and a lot of US currency

jkjsooner

6/27/2011, 08:05 PM

Quantitative Easing #1, 2?

Who first appointed Bernanke?

From a quick 2 second search of wikipedia:

During the peak of the financial crisis in 2008, in the United States the Federal Reserve expanded its balance sheet dramatically by adding new assets and new liabilities

Dan Thompson

6/27/2011, 08:09 PM

Publish or perish. You got to fill the pages or maybe lose your job.

AlboSooner

6/27/2011, 08:13 PM

zVsHHLa3yDg

Blue

6/27/2011, 08:15 PM

Who first appointed Bernanke?

From a quick 2 second search of wikipedia:

Yeah, It's been going on a long time but I can turn that around on you and ask why Mr. Change Obama felt the need to keep the same cronies around?

soonercruiser

6/27/2011, 08:16 PM

It's Liberals and regressives that have outlived their usefulness.
The elitist socialists are now in power, and don't have to keep any of their promises - except to maintain power over you.

yermom

6/27/2011, 08:17 PM

and really how is it that much different than it was under Bush(es) and Reagan?

sooner_born_1960

6/27/2011, 08:20 PM

Elite fascists?

picasso

6/27/2011, 08:23 PM

When people get angry enough, stuff like the French Revolution happens.

Think the Tea Party has been successful? wait until 30% of America is homeless and starving, then we will see a true grass roots movement...will you be on the side of the common man or the government robots?

I think the current power in D.C. would love to see a revolution. That's exactly why they've been $hitcanning our system.

AlboSooner

6/27/2011, 08:29 PM

Accommodating people with different sexual proclivities is a far more important issue than the disappearance of the middle class.

SpankyNek

6/27/2011, 08:30 PM

I think the current power in D.C. would love to see a revolution. That's exactly why they've been $hitcanning our system.

Why would corporate interest (and to a far lesser degree Union interest) want a revolution? Or do you also subscribe to the government still operating free of these interests?

Blue

6/27/2011, 08:33 PM

Why would corporate interest (and to a far lesser degree Union interest) want a revolution? Or do you also subscribe to the government still operating free of these interests?

To Carush you.

http://www.thebubbleburst.co.uk/pics_people/dolph%20lundgren_before.jpg

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/28/2011, 12:45 AM

This is true...but, if humanity is inherently greedy, isn't the most ethical decision for an economy the one that deflects liability and divides wealth among the largest portion of the populace?

.Adherence to the laws we have set forth prevents the govt. from owning or confiscating the fruits of man's labor, in order to give it to someone else. IOW, you are a simple socialist if you believe the govt. should have that kind of power.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!

6/28/2011, 12:49 AM

That's what saved us before....along with the Government telling private industry what they HAD to produce.fear of death at the hands of the krauts and the nips was what started the economy rolling, in the late 1930's.

Blue

6/28/2011, 12:57 AM

fear of death at the hands of the krauts and the nips was what started the economy rolling, in the late 1930's.

Correct.

But anytime the economy struggles, here comes the socialists and commies out of the woodwork. Hoover and FDR then, Bush and Obama now.

Curly Bill

6/28/2011, 06:00 AM

Correct.

But anytime the economy struggles, here comes the socialists and commies out of the woodwork. Hoover and FDR then, Bush and Obama now.

Yup

pphilfran

6/28/2011, 06:27 AM

A lot of food for thought in this thread...

MR2-Sooner86

6/28/2011, 07:54 AM

Ah the old socialist/fair/moral/give communism a chance argument.

I always laugh at these things because people think one group is worse than another.

CEO - Board of Directors
President - Congress
Union Bosses

This is what I find funny, the first one always seems to get the most criticism. What are all of these organizations made of? They're made of people who can become corrupt and lust for power.

"Businesses are unfair!"
So what do we do?
"We give the power to government to regulate them, make it fair, and share the wealth!"
You trust the government more than a corporation?
"Yes! Only the government can be fair!"

That's what I never got from you socialist/marxist/communist types. The whole goal is to have a utopian society. The thing is, you feel the best way to get there is to take everything away from the people, by the government, and then get rid of the government. What makes you think the government is going to give up all that power the same way a corporation fights when it's threatened by government? This is where I side with the anarchist, they have the same goal as marxist but they feel going through the state is a very bad idea. It is.

As for this "perfectly fair utopian society" it's impossible.

http://rvtravel.com/blog/lowtech/uploaded_images/1_1ants_thumb-723484.jpg

That's a perfect utopian society to a marxist/communist (by communist I mean the 100% pure communism the Soviets tried to do and failed miserably), we live like an ant colony. Everybody will be treated the same, given the same, and there will be nothing to make you different.

That's not the impossible part as the impossible part is removing a word from your vocabulary. This word is, "want." Also, Marxism calls for the eradication of all religion where everybody becomes and atheist and you're just not going to do that in today's world.

Now, as mentioned, the reason we're in what we're in today is all three areas have merged. We have Unions paying for politicians, we have corporations paying for members of congress, and we have congress trying to get into board rooms. All three are out to f*ck each other for their own power and self preservation but they're not above using the other when it benefits them.

With that said, many will ask why I'm a Austrian Capitalist. Simple, I feel it can work the best. I know many, the socialist, talk about corporations owning everything and sucking all the money out of you but can't the government as well if we want to go down that road? Also, a union can, and at one time did, serve as a counterbalance to big corporations. Today a Union is nothing more than a special interest lobby to D.C.

Great example, people love to attack Walmart. How did Walmart start out? Sam Walton started out with one store. Who helped him get to where his company is today? We did.
Also, can Walmart grab you, frisk you, and send you through a radioactive X-ray machine? Can Walmart tap your phone lines? Can Walmart take your land from you? Can Walmart use tanks to bust down your front door and set your house on fire?
No, they can't, but the government can, and has.

dwarthog

6/28/2011, 08:31 AM

Google Sweden.

Great idea!

http://reason.com/blog/2010/05/12/swedens-march-toward-capitalis

Sweden's March Toward Capitalism: Economist Andreas Bergh on the "Capitalist Welfare State"

May 12, 2010

In The Capitalist Welfare State, Lund University economist Andreas Bergh explains how Sweden has managed to increase economic productivity despite its large public sector.

Bergh says that despite popular mythology, Sweden is not a socialist success story but instead owes its economic growth to the lowered tax rates and deregulation of the early 1990s, which allowed innovation and investment to flourish. Bergh also discusses how Sweden's national voucher program revitalized the country's educational system and warns that Americans who are hoping to emulate Swedish success by growing the public sector are learning the wrong lessons from Sweden.

soonerscuba

6/28/2011, 08:34 AM

In fairness, Walmart isn't bound by a social contract mandating general welfare, and I don't actually know any ardent Marxists but at least you worked to a salient point. This thread has really separated who is reasonable and who is crazy, more so than usual.

The

6/28/2011, 08:35 AM

Goldman Sachs Is Firing Employees In The US So It Can Hire 1,000 In Singapore (http://www.businessinsider.com/goldman-sachs-is-firing-employees-in-the-us-so-it-can-hire-1000-in-singapore-2011-6)

Goldman Sachs is going to fire employees in the U.S. and some other countries so that it can hire 1,000 in Singapore, where it's cheaper. Charlie Gasparino (http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/06/27/goldman-to-embark-on-hiring-spree-in-singapore/) heard the news from people who were briefed on the hiring in Washington. He says Goldman gave Washington the heads up because hiring offshore is likely to cause a backlash.
He didn't give a specific timeline, or say which units would be hit, but here's what's going to happen, according to Gasparino (http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/06/27/goldman-to-embark-on-hiring-spree-in-singapore/):
Goldman is so concerned about the potential for criticism that the firm’s representatives have been alerting staffers of lawmakers in Washington of the hiring spree in recent weeks as a way to mollify any concerns they may have about previously undisclosed plans to add 1,000 jobs to the firm’s Singapore office, according to people in Washington with direct knowledge if the matter...
The jobs in Singapore are likely to be “high-paying, skilled positions in sales and investment banking,” the same types that are likely to be cut in the firm’s domestic operations, according to one person with knowledge of the matter. This person added that the firm has recently briefed people in Washington about the new overseas jobs because it “is afraid of the fallout” as it plans to slash $1 billion in costs over the next year — a move that will mean a significant, though still undetermined number of layoffs across its operations, though people close to the firm expect the biggest hit to come from the US.
The layoffs come at an interesting time. Banks are fighting tough regulations like capital requirements that they say will stem growth. Preparation for the regulations require banks to free up capital -- like the $1 billion Goldman plans to slash in the coming year.
Goldman's planned layoffs and offshore hiring are exactly the opposite of what Washington wants of course. Unemployment is already too high. And offshore hiring that's a result of something the government is requiring will result in headlines that look bad for both Goldman and Washington.
So this news of the adverse effects that capital requirements will have on employment at Goldman Sachs should help the bankers' as they argue against the requirements in coming months. That's why this looks like a political move to discourage Washington from adding capital requirements above the 7% that Basel III regulations will enforce.

GKeeper316

6/28/2011, 09:03 AM

Accommodating people with different sexual proclivities is a far more important issue than the disappearance of the middle class.

yes it is. protecting the rights of individuals trumps economic policy every time.

jkjsooner

6/28/2011, 09:03 AM

Yeah, It's been going on a long time but I can turn that around on you and ask why Mr. Change Obama felt the need to keep the same cronies around?

I don't have to explain it. I'm not the one who exclusively blamed one party. Rush was.

GKeeper316

6/28/2011, 09:06 AM

Correct.

But anytime the economy struggles, here comes the socialists and commies out of the woodwork. Hoover and FDR then, Bush and Obama now.

and doing now what the republicans wanted to do during the great depression is at least as dumb now as it was then. the market is not going to correct itself. the people hoarding all the money wont let it.

jkjsooner

6/28/2011, 09:08 AM

That's what I never got from you socialist/marxist/communist types. The whole goal is to have a utopian society. The thing is, you feel the best way to get there is to take everything away from the people, by the government, and then get rid of the government.

I must have Karl Marx on ignore. As for the posts I've read, I don't see anyone arguing for a utopian society where the government takes everything away from the people.

The

6/28/2011, 09:12 AM

I must have Karl Marx on ignore. As for the posts I've read, I don't see anyone arguing for a utopian society where the government takes everything away from the people.

It's called a strawman, and is a well known and highly used logical fallacy.

My Opinion Matters

6/28/2011, 09:39 AM

It's called a strawman, and is a well known and highly used logical fallacy.

There's just no room for middle ground. You either blindly accept that the ultra-wealthy will look over the rest of us with generosity and grace, or you're a Neo-Bolshevik.

Nuance is for pussies.

NormanPride

6/28/2011, 09:50 AM

I personally believe that corporations will eventually become our government. Look up the lawless city in India.

MR2-Sooner86

6/28/2011, 10:17 AM

I must have Karl Marx on ignore. As for the posts I've read, I don't see anyone arguing for a utopian society where the government takes everything away from the people.

That's the ultimate goal.
Are people here proclaiming it? No.
Do even all socialist follow the Marx plan? No.

It's called a strawman, and is a well known and highly used logical fallacy.

Jesus Christ you make one comment not even directed at anybody on the board and people still sh*t their panties.

Did I say every single socialist wants a utopian society? No, I said "socialist/Marxist/communist types" which groups those like minded people together. Again, do all socialist follow this line of thought? No however in my experiences, including some of my friends, allot of them do.

There's just no room for middle ground. You either blindly accept that the ultra-wealthy will look over the rest of us with generosity and grace, or you're a Neo-Bolshevik.

Nuance is for pussies.

You didn't address my question. What makes one group better than another if they're both made up of people who are vulnerable to greed and coruption?

Your concept of a "middle ground" is impossible.

If "rich capitalist" are being greedy with all of this money we must make it "fair" to "regulate" and "spread the wealth around" correct? To do this we must give the government power to be able to carry this out. How can we achieve, and keep, a middle ground when you accuse one side of being greedy but turn around and give the other side power over it? If you're accusing one side of being greedy and using people what's to keep the other side from being greedy and using people as well?

Hasn't history shown us that when you give power to a person, or group of people, it can be hard to get it back?

Laugh all you want but wasn't Star Wars based on the same premise? Big Business (Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, Banking Clan), went up against Big Government (Republic), over policies Big Government made against Big Business, so the people gave power to a person (Palpetine) to fix it, but who in the end was worse than what the people gave him the power to combat.

The

6/28/2011, 10:21 AM

Laugh all you want but wasn't Star Wars based on the same premise? Big Business (Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, Banking Clan), went up against Big Government (Republic), over policies Big Government made against Big Business, so the people gave power to a person (Palpetine) to fix it, but who in the end was worse than what the people gave him the power to combat.

The Chewbacca Defense?
http://blogs.msdn.com/blogfiles/markbrown/WindowsLiveWriter/4ea7b83bab54_9107/Chewbacca_Defense_2.jpg

tommieharris91

6/28/2011, 10:23 AM

You didn't address my question. What makes one group better than another if they're both made up of people who are vulnerable to greed and coruption?

Your concept of a "middle ground" is impossible.

If "rich capitalist" are being greedy with all of this money we must make it "fair" to "regulate" and "spread the wealth around" correct? To do this we must give the government power to be able to carry this out. How can we achieve, and keep, a middle ground when you accuse one side of being greedy but turn around and give the other side power over it? If you're accusing one side of being greedy and using people what's to keep the other side from being greedy and using people as well?

Hasn't history shown us that when you give power to a person, or group of people, it can be hard to get it back?

Laugh all you want but wasn't Star Wars based on the same premise? Big Business (Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, Banking Clan), went up against Big Government (Republic), over policies Big Government made against Big Business, so the people gave power to a person (Palpetine) to fix it, but who in the end was worse than what the people gave him the power to combat.

http://www.whorublog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Fish-hook.jpg

Thaumaturge

6/28/2011, 10:33 AM

Laugh all you want but wasn't Star Wars based on the same premise? Big Business (Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, Banking Clan), went up against Big Government (Republic), over policies Big Government made against Big Business, so the people gave power to a person (Palpetine) to fix it, but who in the end was worse than what the people gave him the power to combat.

Astute analysis, Poindexter. But doesn't Star Trek utterly refute you about the viability of a utopian socialist society?

badger

6/28/2011, 10:41 AM

I wonder what people thought about the rich, the foreign people and their governments, and the economy back in the 80s? During the Great Depression?

Old people have rolled their eyes for years at the suffering of kids and their big huge elementary school walks to school, high school drama, or job pressures, and their laments that their issues are harder than anyone else has ever faced. Oh, these heavy backpacks! The temptation to cheat on exams to get competitive grades for top colleges! The teacher imposed texting bans!

Is this really a bad economic situation, or is this just the problem we are facing now, thus making it seem really bad?

dwarthog

6/28/2011, 10:42 AM

Astute analysis, Poindexter. But doesn't Star Trek utterly refute you about the viability of a utopian socialist society?

Captain Picard had nicer quarters than First officer Riker.

Must be some sort of unfair hierarchical structure in place.

My Opinion Matters

6/28/2011, 10:45 AM

That's the ultimate goal.
Are people here proclaiming it? No.
Do even all socialist follow the Marx plan? No.

Jesus Christ you make one comment not even directed at anybody on the board and people still sh*t their panties.

Did I say every single socialist wants a utopian society? No, I said "socialist/Marxist/communist types" which groups those like minded people together. Again, do all socialist follow this line of thought? No however in my experiences, including some of my friends, allot of them do.

You didn't address my question. What makes one group better than another if they're both made up of people who are vulnerable to greed and coruption?

Your concept of a "middle ground" is impossible.

If "rich capitalist" are being greedy with all of this money we must make it "fair" to "regulate" and "spread the wealth around" correct? To do this we must give the government power to be able to carry this out. How can we achieve, and keep, a middle ground when you accuse one side of being greedy but turn around and give the other side power over it? If you're accusing one side of being greedy and using people what's to keep the other side from being greedy and using people as well?

Hasn't history shown us that when you give power to a person, or group of people, it can be hard to get it back?

Laugh all you want but wasn't Star Wars based on the same premise? Big Business (Trade Federation, Commerce Guild, Banking Clan), went up against Big Government (Republic), over policies Big Government made against Big Business, so the people gave power to a person (Palpetine) to fix it, but who in the end was worse than what the people gave him the power to combat.
http://i54.tinypic.com/166axwm.jpg

SpankyNek

6/28/2011, 10:46 AM

Captain Picard had nicer quarters than First officer Riker.

Must be some sort of unfair hierarchical structure in place.

"Nicer" is a subjective term...perhaps both were satisfied?

The

6/28/2011, 10:52 AM

Is this really a bad economic situation, or is this just the problem we are facing now, thus making it seem really bad?

To be completely honest, I don't know. And I don't think that there are very many people in the world that really understand it. Fiat finance as it relates to basically defaulting on itself is a really complicated concept.

The way I see it, only my membership as one of America's Cultural Elite serving as a qualifier, is that three things can happen:

The house of cards collapses. Imaginary money gets found out as imaginary money. Millions die.
Imaginary money somehow fixes itself, most likely at the expense of countries full of brown people. Millions die.
The Mayan calender ends, and we aint got **** to worry about anymore, and we all have a big laugh about this on the afterworld internets. Everyone dies.

dwarthog

6/28/2011, 10:58 AM

"Nicer" is a subjective term...perhaps both were satisfied?

How could he be satisfied if he had less? Just isn't possible, according to most folks these days.

XingTheRubicon

6/28/2011, 11:36 AM

what's the wifi range in hell?

The

6/28/2011, 11:38 AM

what's the wifi range in hell?

Surprisingly good.

soonercruiser

6/28/2011, 12:22 PM