Unions

[OutlandTrophy]

Has there ever been a case where a company was about to go under and then the workers formed a Union and then saved the company from going under?

[XingTheRubicon]

maybe in a movie.

Successful businesses avoid unions like the plague.

[jk the sooner fan]

Has there ever been a case where a company was about to go under and then the workers formed a Union and then saved the company from going under?

great question

i'd bet not

[GKeeper316]

maybe in a movie.

Successful businesses avoid unions like the plague.

UPS disagrees.

[KantoSooner]

UPS has merged the union with the owners.

[Whet]

Like Government Motors!

[Lawton4Life]

Wasnt that the plot of Other People's Money or did they just make impassioned speeches to stockholders.

[MsProudSooner]

I vaguely remember a case where a union bought a company that was about to go under. But I don't know if the company survived long-term.

[StoopTroup]

Has there ever been a case where a company was about to go under and then the workers formed a Union and then saved the company from going under?

Not formed a union but I know of one that had multiple Unions who agreed to take pay cuts and benefit cuts to help a Major Corporation avoid bankruptcy.

I know of another one that had Warehouse Union and a Trucking Union and they put together a bid to purchase the Company unfortunately they couldn't compete with Walmart with the amount of debt they had incurred. It had more to do with buying power and the price of goods than it did with labor as most of the employees risked their pensions to help buy the Company. Many of them ended up working for Walmart.

I'm sure there are plenty more....

Harley Davidsons Unions took massive cuts to help the Company back on their feet and later management stacked dealerships so deep in product that they couldn't sell the last years models.

[Pozey]

UPS has merged the union with the owners.

Huh?

I haven't kept up with UPS in a while...but I had not heard anything about the Teamsters merging with UPS management.

[OutlandTrophy]

Not formed a union but I know of one that had multiple Unions who agreed to take pay cuts and benefit cuts to help a Major Corporation avoid bankruptcy.

I know of another one that had Warehouse Union and a Trucking Union and they put together a bid to purchase the Company unfortunately they couldn't compete with Walmart with the amount of debt they had incurred. It had more to do with buying power and the price of goods than it did with labor as most of the employees risked their pensions to help buy the Company. Many of them ended up working for Walmart.

I'm sure there are plenty more....

Harley Davidsons Unions took massive cuts to help the Company back on their feet and later management stacked dealerships so deep in product that they couldn't sell the last years models.

none of what you wrote comes even close to being the scenario I asked about.

[SpankyNek]

There are many employee owned company success stories...basically the evolution of Unions.

[OutlandTrophy]

but nobody can think of a company that was an open shop and struggling then had the workers organize and then the company turned around?

not one?

[pphilfran]

In the early 2000's Goodyear added a union rep to the Board...

[pphilfran]

but nobody can think of a company that was an open shop and struggling then had the workers organize and then the company turned around?

not one?

A union is not value added...

A good company will not need a union...

A bad company needing a union will still find it hard to compete...

[SpankyNek]

In the early 2000's Goodyear added a union rep to the Board...

Countless Electrical shops in Texas have joined the Union to stay in business.

[pphilfran]

Countless Electrical shops in Texas have joined the Union to stay in business.

Why did they have to join a union to stay in business?

[StoopTroup]

but nobody can think of a company that was an open shop and struggling then had the workers organize and then the company turned around?

not one?

I'd think it would be pretty rare. I mean which cones first, the chicken or the egg?

[Pozey]

UPS has merged the union with the owners.

They didn't merge.

UPS and the Teamsters simply agreed on a 5 year contract back in 2007. And that agreement was made nearly a year before the contract was to expire. So...their contract should run through 2013.

[SpankyNek]

Why did they have to join a union to stay in business?

Mainly due to municipal contract availability.

Commercial construction is still reeling, civic construction continues...

[pphilfran]

Mainly due to municipal contract availability.

Commercial construction is still reeling, civic construction continues...

So...if you were not a union based company you could not bid on a contract...sounds fair....

[StoopTroup]

Sometimes I guess some investors might want to make sure a skilled workforce is in place prior to investing into a project?

[jk the sooner fan]

you cant be skilled unless you belong to a union?

[SpankyNek]

So...if you were not a union based company you could not bid on a contract...sounds fair....

You can bid, but there are definitely advantages in the bidding process if you are Union, primarily based upon material savings due to collective purchasing, etc....

There are a couple of "independent associations" (basically unions as well) like the IEC etc that have come into play, but there are also advantages in awarding unions contracts, as they require a certain amount of vocational training for their members above and beyond the state requirements of mere apprenticeship.

[pphilfran]

Sometimes I guess some investors might want to make sure a skilled workforce is in place prior to investing into a project?

A union does not promise skilled workers...

A companies hiring practice is what determines skills levels that are employed...

I worked in many manufacturing plants...some union and some non union...there are as many incompetent employees in a union plant as a non union plant...

Since Texas is a right to work state you do not need to be in the union to be employed at a union plant...

If a person does not join the union they face unbelievable pressure...

At the union hall across the street from the Goodyear/Kelly plant in Tyler was a billboard that listed every employee that had not joined the union...at the top of the billboard was the heading...SCAB WORKERS...

Classy...

[pphilfran]

Despite being the most modern tire plant in the world it was unable to compete and is now closed....

[pphilfran]

Before everyone starts calling me anti union...

I, and my next in line, were the only two salary associates in the entire plant that were ever invited to union organized retirement parties...

[jk the sooner fan]

feel free to call me "anti-union"

because i am - 95% anyway

[GKeeper316]

you cant be skilled unless you belong to a union?

no, but generally, unions will have standards by which you must adhere to in order to gain admission into said union.

[pphilfran]

Just for "transparency" (I hate that overused term) how many people posting in this thread have worked or been a manager in both union and non union manufacturing facilities?

[SpankyNek]

Before everyone starts calling me anti union...

I, and my next in line, were the only two salary associates in the entire plant that were ever invited to union organized retirement parties...

I know you're not ant-Union, Phil, and if we weren't in such financial woes nationwide (Which is partly due to overpriced US labor, but primarily due to high risk banking practices no one would really have a beef.

What is more American than to allow collective bargaining? If business interests are allowed to incorporate, so should their employees, right?

[pphilfran]

no, but generally, unions will have standards by which you must adhere to in order to gain admission into said union.

Bull****...

The union does not set hiring practice for a company...

[pphilfran]

I know you're not ant-Union, Phil, and if we weren't in such financial woes nationwide (Which is partly due to overpriced US labor, but primarily due to high risk banking practices no one would really have a beef.

What is more American than to allow collective bargaining? If business interests are allowed to incorporate, so should their employees, right?

I don't think it should be crammed down everyone's throat....

[tcrb]

no, but generally, unions will have standards by which you must adhere to in order to gain admission into said union.

True, they do have standards......you must pay an initiation fee and monthly dues thereafter.

[GKeeper316]

Bull****...

The union does not set hiring practice for a company...

we aren't talking about manufacturing... we we're talking about independent electricians bidding on municiple contracts... at least i thought we were.

[GKeeper316]

True, they do have standards......you must pay an initiation fee and monthly dues thereafter.

and in return for those fees and dues, you gain more than the sum of your dues and fees.

[pphilfran]

To become an electrician you are not approved by a union standard...same for a pipefitter...same for a mechanic...

You must be able to perform to standards that are not set by a union....

[KantoSooner]

They didn't merge.

UPS and the Teamsters simply agreed on a 5 year contract back in 2007. And that agreement was made nearly a year before the contract was to expire. So...their contract should run through 2013.

Be calm. I was not using the word 'merger' in its legal sense but in a more general sense. At UPS, the workers interests are 'merged' with those of the owners, creating a unity of interest in seeing the company make money rather than the disconnection seen at a lot of other companies.

Interestingly, I get to see the results daily. Our UPS guy is wonderful: bright, funny, professional, always one with a joke and knows everyone in our little building...and never wastes a second. He's in, out and down the road without ever stopping his forward progress. Our Fedex guy is likewise a great guy...and never fails to peruse the sample racks, plop down in a chair for a chat, etc. I know it's hot out and the A/C probably feels damn good. But I bet the UPS guy is getting twice the deliveries per hour than Mr. Fedex is.

[jk the sooner fan]

i'd have more respect for unions and their "standards" if they didnt spend so much time pushing the weakest link as the work standard - and going to the mat for employees that have failed to come close to living up to the standards they preach

[SpankyNek]

Just for "transparency" (I hate that overused term) how many people posting in this thread have worked or been a manager in both union and non union manufacturing facilities?

Not in manufacturing, but in service/installation.

Early on in the grocery industry (both Union and non) and in the electrical construction trade (Both union and non, athough my non union experience was within a "network" called the Independent Electrical Contractors Assn, which is also in OK, and,IMO, is just a competing union..the employers pay membership, employees are referred through the school, and employees that are independently hired are (generally, if they are not already at Journeyman level) required to attend 4 years of training, education on installation and theory).

My only true non-union experience came during a short stint at Warehouse Market on 59th and Santa Fe (They may have actually been Union, I wasn't there long enough to know) and at Eckerd Drug as a long time Pharmacy Tech/district Pharmacy assistant. Neither company is currently in operation.

[pphilfran]

and in return for those fees and dues, you gain more than the sum of your dues and fees.

Bull chit...

The union in Tyler voted down a recreational complex with a swimming pool and baseball fields....all because they wouldn't agree to multicraft skilled trades...

The plant is shut down in Tyler because the union membership would not allow new technology to be implemented because in the long term total membership could have been lower...even though Goodyear/Kelly was not going to lay off one single employee....as people retired their jobs would not be replaced and the tech would be then be implemented...

The plant being shut down sure has benefited the membership...

Come on...bring on some more of your rhetoric...

[GKeeper316]

To become an electrician you are not approved by a union standard...same for a pipefitter...same for a mechanic...

You must be able to perform to standards that are not set by a union....

i know this... all im saying is that in order to be accepted into a union comprised of mostly independents, you need to show the union that you deserve to be there, much the same as when you get a professional license from the state. lets not forget that joe the plumber was operating a plumbing business in his hometown in ohio illegally, since he never bothered to get a plumbers license. call me crazy, but i want to see the guys accerditation that proves his qualifications, and membership in an electricians or plumbers union will mean he has that.

[tcrb]

and in return for those fees and dues, you gain more than the sum of your dues and fees.

Yes....that's what they tell you. I was a union member for 20 years at a major airline. One year, my union leadership negotiated a 5% pay cut for me and my fellow union members, and then promptly raised my dues by $5/month to cover the pay increases that they gave to our "leadership team".

Current day unions do nothing for those that are hard working and produce in the workplace, but they do protect the lazy, worthless members that are just paying dues. Never once did I see the shop committee go to bat for a worker that had good attendance and work ethic. But they were constantly defending the ones who always called in sick and screwed the pooch when they were at work.

[GKeeper316]

Bull chit...

The union in Tyler voted down a recreational complex with a swimming pool and baseball fields....all because they wouldn't agree to multicraft skilled trades...

The plant is shut down in Tyler because the union membership would not allow new technology to be implemented because in the long term total membership could have been lower...even though Goodyear/Kelly was not going to lay off one single employee....as people retired their jobs would not be replaced and the tech would be then be implemented...

The plant being shut down sure has benefited the membership...

Come on...bring on some more of your rhetoric...

jeez im real sorry your tire plant in texas went tits up. the one in okc did too, and it didnt have **** to do with the unions.

[pphilfran]

Not in manufacturing, but in service/installation.

Early on in the grocery industry (both Union and non) and in the electrical construction trade (Both union and non, athough my non union experience was within a "network" called the Independent Electrical Contractors Assn, which is also in OK, and,IMO, is just a competing union..the employers pay membership, employees are referred through the school, and employees that are independently hired are (generally, if they are not already at Journeyman level) required to attend 4 years of training, education on installation and theory).

My only true non-union experience came during a short stint at Warehouse Market on 59th and Santa Fe (They may have actually been Union, I wasn't there long enough to know) and at Eckerd Drug as a long time Pharmacy Tech/district Pharmacy assistant. Neither company is currently in operation.

I can talk grocery also...

In the 70's I was working for Humpty (allied supermarkets)...across the street was a unionized Safeway....the union guy was always coming around and talking about how much more the Safeway employee made....well, we got the same wages as Safeway...within 5 years Humpty was BK and out of business...

[GKeeper316]

Yes....that's what they tell you. I was a union member for 20 years at a major airline. One year, my union leadership negotiated a 5% pay cut for me and my fellow union members, and then promptly raised my dues by $5/month to cover the pay increases that they gave to our "leadership team".

Current day unions do nothing for those that are hard working and produce in the workplace, but they do protect the lazy, worthless members that are just paying dues. Never once did I see the shop committee go to bat for a worker that had good attendance and work ethic. But they were constantly defending the ones who always called in sick and screwed the pooch when they were at work.

so you had ****ty union leadership... that isnt the fault of the concept of a labor union.

[pphilfran]

jeez im real sorry your tire plant in texas went tits up. the one in okc did too, and it didnt have **** to do with the unions.

What, that piece of **** out date technology Dayton plant?

You are out of your league if you want to debate tire manufacturing and costs...

[GKeeper316]

What, that piece of **** out date technology Dayton plant?

You are out of your league if you want to debate tire manufacturing and costs...

i have no desire to debate anything... you're saying "union bad" and i'm disagreeing with you. i know the benefit a good union can give a group of workers. i've seen it first hand.

[SpankyNek]

I can talk grocery also...

In the 70's I was working for Humpty (allied supermarkets)...across the street was a unionized Safeway....the union guy was always coming around and talking about how much more the Safeway employee made....well, we got the same wages as Safeway...within 5 years Humpty was BK and out of business...

We're talking 25+ years ago, but working at Homeland (AWG) I started at about 25% over minimum wage, which was the standard elsewhere, and had full benefits (No deductible healthcare/prescription with $5 co-pays, life insurance, lt and st disability) for "free." Union dues amounted to just under $20/month.

I am surprised that they have outlasted ol' JB Prattt and Mr. Buchannan (were either IGA)?

[tcrb]

so you had ****ty union leadership... that isnt the fault of the concept of a labor union.

Weak response. Facts are facts.....most union leadership is corrupt. That's why they are on their way out. The airline that I worked for was bought out by a non-union airline. The new owners agreed to allow a vote for the workers to choose unions or not. There were more former union employees than non-union. The vote was overwhelmingly to not allow the union to represent them.

[pphilfran]

How about the Tyler plant walking out because we fired 5 hourly employees because they were punching each other in and out while they sat at home on the butts...and slashing my car tires in the parking lot because I was the one that fired the 5 offenders?

So..even though the plant parking was within a fenced in area and there were guards that verified employment we had to install cameras to protect us from vandalism to our cars?

Or having to ride into the plant in a freaking train boxcar because the union would not allow salary employees to enter through the gate?

[pphilfran]

i have no desire to debate anything... you're saying "union bad" and i'm disagreeing with you. i know the benefit a good union can give a group of workers. i've seen it first hand.

Never said that....

I said it was no value added....

I said a good company does not need a union...a bad company will not become magically better or more efficient because of a union...

[pphilfran]

The Tyler plant had a terrible relationship between the union and management....management used a baseball bat to get things accomplished...and the union fought back...

Goodyear attempted, and succeeded in turning around the management by chit canning all of the theory x management style managers and brought in a group of managers that had a history of working well with the employee...

The old style union management was the group that stayed in their old familiar baseball bat style...

[SpankyNek]

Never said that....

I said it was no value added....

I said a good company does not need a union...a bad company will not become magically better or more efficient because of a union...
It can if there are returns of profitability offered by the Unions that don't currently exist through the company, like pfofit sharing, and employee ownership.

This is rarely something that happens, though.

[tcrb]

Skilled workers with good work ethic do not need a union. They can find and retain their employment wherever their services are needed. If you need a union to make sure you're making a fair wage, you're just not bringing much to the table in the first place. Why should the lazy, non-productive worker make the same as the one who produces at the top level?

[StoopTroup]

none of what you wrote comes even close to being the scenario I asked about.

Well you shouldnt ask questions like that then. Give us a little more to go on. You start off with a kind of negative question instead of just explaining what's going on and then asking your question. It makes for a nice 20 page thread as we continue to try and unravel why the hell you ask that question but it gets you a lot of posts that don't have a clue what the **** your talking about.

[pphilfran]

Well you shouldnt ask questions like that then. Give us a little more to go on. You start off with a kind of negative question instead of just explaining what's going on and then asking your question. It makes for a nice 20 page thread as we continue to try and unravel why the hell you ask that question but it gets you a lot of posts that don't have a clue what the **** your talking about.

But is HAS been fun.....:D

[OUMallen]

Has there ever been a case where a company was about to go under and then the workers formed a Union and then saved the company from going under?

I'm not exactly sure that's the point of a union?

[Pozey]

Be calm. I was not using the word 'merger' in its legal sense but in a more general sense. At UPS, the workers interests are 'merged' with those of the owners, creating a unity of interest in seeing the company make money rather than the disconnection seen at a lot of other companies.

Interestingly, I get to see the results daily. Our UPS guy is wonderful: bright, funny, professional, always one with a joke and knows everyone in our little building...and never wastes a second. He's in, out and down the road without ever stopping his forward progress. Our Fedex guy is likewise a great guy...and never fails to peruse the sample racks, plop down in a chair for a chat, etc. I know it's hot out and the A/C probably feels damn good. But I bet the UPS guy is getting twice the deliveries per hour than Mr. Fedex is.

No biggie...

Your post about them "merging" peaked my curiosity about it because I worked for UPS at one time. I was a delivery driver for several years. And although I still have friends who work there, I just hadn't kept up with the goings on of the Union stuff.

That's all.

[soonerscuba]

I am by no means a union expert, but I generally get a sense there is a needed purpose for them in terms of occupational safety, but their benefits structuring can be a major collar. I guess I just see a major difference between miners and grocery store workers and have a hard time seeing how you regulate that.

[SpankyNek]

Skilled workers with good work ethic do not need a union. They can find and retain their employment wherever their services are needed. If you need a union to make sure you're making a fair wage, you're just not bringing much to the table in the first place. Why should the lazy, non-productive worker make the same as the one who produces at the top level?

Have you looked at Union scale (I am obviously not talking about manufacturing here, of which I am ignorant)

Some guys do not want the hassle of starting their own business, in my industry, the Union still pays far more than privateers (in general) can afford, or are willing to pay.

Factor in the cheap wages afforded by our current unemployment, and it is actually the under-skilled worker that is coveted by private industry (at half of the cost)and the Union is a no-brainer for those carrying a state license. The only folks that don't are not doing it out of principle, not because of financial stability.

[OUMallen]

I am by no means a union expert, but I generally get a sense there is a needed purpose for them in terms of occupational safety, but their benefits structuring can be a major collar. I guess I just see a major difference between miners and grocery store workers and have a hard time seeing how you regulate that.

And also to help maintain the middle class. Sure, they're a little bit socialist in nature, but we need that.

[pphilfran]

And also to help maintain the middle class. Sure, they're a little bit socialist in nature, but we need that.

So...the Tyler plant that is now shut down and production that is now in Asia because the union would not budge was good for the middle class?

The manufacturing cost to produce a tire in Tyler (the most modern tire plant in the world from 1985-1992) was higher than what Pep Boys was selling an identically sized tire at retail...

We were screwed due to poor trade agreements...

[tcrb]

Have you looked at Union scale (I am obviously not talking about manufacturing here, of which I am ignorant)

Some guys do not want the hassle of starting their own business, in my industry, the Union still pays far more than privateers (in general) can afford, or are willing to pay.

Factor in the cheap wages afforded by our current unemployment, and it is actually the under-skilled worker that is coveted by private industry (at half of the cost)and the Union is a no-brainer for those carrying a state license. The only folks that don't are not doing it out of principle, not because of financial stability.

I'm sorry, but I missed your point here.

[pphilfran]

Why is the non union Lawton tire plant...one of, if not the largest, in the world...a plant that produces over 60,000 tires a day...still in business with more capital expansion happening on a yearly basis?

The Lawton tire plant pays a higher wage for skilled jobs than union plants... once union dues are excluded....

Of course the Lawton plant contracts out much of the low skilled labor...janitors and such....

[SpankyNek]

I'm sorry, but I missed your point here.

My point is, there are exceptions to every rule, and in some cases it is the Union that draws the best and brightest in their field (especially trade related unions).

We are also forgetting that Unions (in general) educate (Either through implicit training or continuing education) to standards that are higher than the minimum required by the state.

In closing, corporations have almost unprecedented bargaining power right now due to large numbers of unemployed. Any strike in almost ant field would be met with skilled labor to replace it at lower cost. If a company does not wish to collectively bargain, then why sign the contract?

It should be binding.

[pphilfran]

Two things have driven manufacturing out of the US...

Unions that fail to adapt to new technology and refuse to allow anything that might comprise long term membership growth...

Poor trade agreements that benefit off shore production due to lower labor and environmental costs....

[SpankyNek]

Two things have driven manufacturing out of the US...

Unions that fail to adapt to new technology and refuse to allow anything that might comprise long term membership growth...

Poor trade agreements that benefit off shore production due to lower labor and environmental costs....

Agreed.

Would also throw in that many people, say 50 and under, did not consider working for local manufacturing as an acceptable career. Mr white collar is kicking Mr blue collars a$$ nowadays.

[OUMallen]

So...the Tyler plant that is now shut down and production that is now in Asia because the union would not budge was good for the middle class?

The manufacturing cost to produce a tire in Tyler (the most modern tire plant in the world from 1985-1992) was higher than what Pep Boys was selling an identically sized tire at retail...

We were screwed due to poor trade agreements...

If you really think that's somehow a good, valid, logical point, you should probably excuse yourself from the thread.

The labor union is somewhat helpful in modern America to help keep $$$ in the middle class, which is important for a vibrant economy and quality of life. It helps to make manufacturing jobs worthwhile so people actually want them instead of manufacturing jobs being crappy low paying work no one wants, which results in low quality employees and low quality output.

[jk the sooner fan]

If you really think that's somehow a good, valid, logical point, you should probably excuse yourself from the thread.

The labor union is somewhat helpful in modern America to help keep $$$ in the middle class, which is important for a vibrant economy and quality of life. It helps to make manufacturing jobs worthwhile so people actually want them instead of manufacturing jobs being crappy low paying work no one wants, which results in low quality employees and low quality output.

and i'm not sure your argument is supported by the trends in union memberships over the last decade or so - the only sector where unions are growing are in the federal government

the department of labor and all the labor laws they enforce dont really allow the sweatshop scenarios

[OUMallen]

and i'm not sure your argument is supported by the trends in union memberships over the last decade or so - the only sector where unions are growing are in the federal government

the department of labor and all the labor laws they enforce dont really allow the sweatshop scenarios

So unions are getting smaller, and you know what is growing right now and has been for a while? The wealth gap.

That actually proves my point to a T.

And I'm not pro-union really, and in the short-term and small scope, I'm anti-union. I just recognize that there's something to be said about how unions bolster the middle class.

[StoopTroup]

Skilled workers with good work ethic do not need a union. They can find and retain their employment wherever their services are needed. If you need a union to make sure you're making a fair wage, you're just not bringing much to the table in the first place. Why should the lazy, non-productive worker make the same as the one who produces at the top level?

You sound like the last guy that nearly bankrupted my company.

[badger]

Speaking of unions, I'm worried that Boeing is gonna pack up and leave for overseas if this South Carolina mess doesn't get resolved. It really makes me go wtf when they

1- Build a billion dollar plant in South Carolina, a right-to-work state
2- Mention that it might have something to do with the fact that the Washington state unionized plant's previous strikes has caused them to need to seek a plan that results in less work stoppage in the future.
3- Expand the unionized workforce in Washington state while building the South Carolina plant
4- Vows to layoff no Washington state unionized workers once the South Carolina non-union plant is operational.

Sorry if we've already had a discussion on this. I can't keep South Oval arguments straight :(

[StoopTroup]

Speaking of unions, I'm worried that Boeing is gonna pack up and leave for overseas if this South Carolina mess doesn't get resolved. It really makes me go wtf when they

1- Build a billion dollar plant in South Carolina, a right-to-work state
2- Mention that it might have something to do with the fact that the Washington state unionized plant's previous strikes has caused them to need to seek a plan that results in less work stoppage in the future.
3- Expand the unionized workforce in Washington state while building the South Carolina plant
4- Vows to layoff no Washington state unionized workers once the South Carolina non-union plant is operational.

Sorry if we've already had a discussion on this. I can't keep South Oval arguments straight :(

That's exactly what Boeing should do....is pack the hell up and get the hell out. Then maybe all the guys that now think they can get funding to build aircraft can get started hiring Boeing's workforce and start building some quality Aircraft rather than the Union pieces of crap they are making now.

[jk the sooner fan]

So unions are getting smaller, and you know what is growing right now and has been for a while? The wealth gap.

That actually proves my point to a T.

And I'm not pro-union really, and in the short-term and small scope, I'm anti-union. I just recognize that there's something to be said about how unions bolster the middle class.

i'm not so sure i agree about the wealth gap - but its my understanding that the poverty line has continued to rise during the same period

we've moved from a manufacturing based economy to a service based economy - thats how i see it anyway

[Howzit]

Just for "transparency" (I hate that overused term) how many people posting in this thread have worked or been a manager in both union and non union manufacturing facilities?

I haven't posted in the thread, but worked in distribution management with several Teamster houses, as I was from corporate. I never had a good expereince with any of them. Ever.

Warehousing is a whole different animal from manufacturing, but in my field no skills whatsoever were required to join the union aside from being hired. And once hired, no skills went into the process of who could bid what job aside from seniority.

The sole goal of the Teamsters I worked with was to maximize pay and benefits (which were already exhorbitant in virtually every market) while presenting every possible obstacle to productivity and profit.

I realize there may be some industries where unions work well with management and actually be of beneift, I just haven't seen it, personally.

[OUMallen]

What do you disagree about?


(AP) The income gap between the richest and poorest Americans grew last year to its widest amount on record as young adults and children in particular struggled to stay afloat in the recession.

The top-earning 20 percent of Americans - those making more than $100,000 each year - received 49.4 percent of all income generated in the U.S., compared with the 3.4 percent earned by those below the poverty line, according to newly released census figures. That ratio of 14.5-to-1 was an increase from 13.6 in 2008 and nearly double a low of 7.69 in 1968.

A different measure, the international Gini index, found U.S. income inequality at its highest level since the Census Bureau began tracking household income in 1967. The U.S. also has the greatest disparity among Western industrialized nations.

At the top, the wealthiest 5 percent of Americans, who earn more than $180,000, added slightly to their annual incomes last year, census data show. Families at the $50,000 median level slipped lower.

"Income inequality is rising, and if we took into account tax data, it would be even more," said Timothy Smeeding, a University of Wisconsin-Madison professor who specializes in poverty. "More than other countries, we have a very unequal income distribution where compensation goes to the top in a winner-takes-all economy."

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/09/28/national/main6907321.shtml#ixzz1QDRgutYD

That was in September of 2010.

Labor unions, when they jack up the wages for the workers, help to combat a widening wealth gap.

[badger]

i'm not so sure i agree about the wealth gap - but its my understanding that the poverty line has continued to rise during the same period

At the same time, has anyone noticed what qualifies for poverty these days?

Kids standing in food bank lines are playing with iPods while their parents talk on their cell phones.

Dish washers, microwaves, computers and two television sets are in the greater majority of all households now.

Families need to have $50k income or less to qualify for Oklahoma's Higher Learning Access Plan (OHLAP), the program that allows kids to attend state schools tuition-free if they have high enough grades, take college prep courses in high school, etc.

Is the poverty line rising, or is what qualifies as "poverty" rising?

[StoopTroup]

and i'm not sure your argument is supported by the trends in union memberships over the last decade or so - the only sector where unions are growing are in the federal government

the department of labor and all the labor laws they enforce dont really allow the sweatshop scenarios

What that sounds like is that the private sector has nearly eliminated all the Private and Corporate Unions and the Unions have basically moved towards representing people they can buy off who run Government.

Now....what I figure can happen is more of the Wisconsin Scenarios until Unions switch back to the private and Corporate Sectors as the jobs in the Government will dry up. This will inspire another labor revolution in the private and corporate sectors. People will get bought off here and there and eventually you'll have America's Workforce right back to where it was when Unions began their rise to prominence in the US against the Rich who basically starved them out and tried to scare them by creating a monetary depression. Since there aren't many folks with farms so they can feed themselves you'll have a pretty quick rise in violence as people scramble to get as much food as they possibly can off of the shelves of stores. The National Guard will be called out and whoever is President will take charge and your Socialist Dreams will come true to squash the violence.

I'm pretty sure the prisons are full but these scads of legal Marijuana Users are gonna need some pre-packaged munchies and they will load up on meth and head out into the streets to get it.

What the hell else should they do? They already don't trust the Government and you want them to trust the guy that rolls up in his $45,000 rig to give 20 jobs to the 5,000 sitting on the corner?

[landrun]

and in return for those fees and dues, you gain more than the sum of your dues and fees.

Especially if you're a lazy dishonest worker who couldn't care less about any of the other employees in the plant. You can knock off work whenever you want, be totally unproductive etc... with no fear of retribution.

I've worked in a unionized plant and I've seen it with my own eyes.

The unions have a bad rep because they've earned it. Many of their programs are nothing short of collective ways to steal from their employer (like GM's rubber room aka: job bank) and now... they've stolen from the US tax payer.

Not to mention, joining a union makes you a implicit contributor to the Democrat party. Unions are nothing but an arm of the democrat party and the 'empathetic', 'caring' union bosses are making million dollar salaries to stand up for the 'working man'.

Unions may have been needed at one time in this country. Today, they are nothing more than a corrupt political machine.

[tcrb]

You sound like the last guy that nearly bankrupted my company.

I'm sure that the near bankruptcy was al management's fault and had nothing to do with overpaid, unskilled workers.

[pphilfran]

If you really think that's somehow a good, valid, logical point, you should probably excuse yourself from the thread.

The labor union is somewhat helpful in modern America to help keep $$$ in the middle class, which is important for a vibrant economy and quality of life. It helps to make manufacturing jobs worthwhile so people actually want them instead of manufacturing jobs being crappy low paying work no one wants, which results in low quality employees and low quality output.

I don't think it is true...it is fact...so I will now excuse myself from the thread...

[Howzit]

OUMallen, this may have already been posted, but do you work in a union? Or have you? Or do you represent a local?

Just curious.

[OUMallen]

OUMallen, this may have already been posted, but do you work in a union? Or have you? Or do you represent a local?

Just curious.

Nope, nope, nope. Like I said above, on the microscale, I am pretty anti-union. I think, when practically implemented, they hurt more than they help. Maybe a LOT more.


However, just saying that I feel that maybe we shouldn't get rid of unions altogether. On the macroscale, they help all of us by bolstering the middle class.

[KantoSooner]

What do you disagree about?



That was in September of 2010.

Labor unions, when they jack up the wages for the workers, help to combat a widening wealth gap.

you are correct...in the same sense that it's not the fall that kills you, but the sudden stop at the bottom.

Whether we choose to accept it or not, we live in a global economy. We can poke our fingers in our ears and scream 'I don't hear you!' all we want and it won't change. None of the so-called 'low cost' countries are 'cheating'. You can simply make a bath towel a hell of a lot cheaper in India than in South Carolina.

To erect trade barriers around your country to prop up uncompetitive industries is simply an indirect tax on your citizens and an impediment to your own exports and technological development.

Labor unions' efforts to jack up wages may help for a season or two, but ultimately lead to the GM scenario, which serves no one's interests.

In my view, two things have happened. First, the rest of the world has gotten a lot more competitive. Put all the arguments about sweat shops and lax regulation aside. Those things contribute but are not fundamental. The fundamental fact is that manufacturing is now quite fungible. It's portable. I can, given $3 billion or so, builld the same Intel chiip plant in South China that I'd build in Oregon or Phoenix. And it will have the same productivity and quality of production. And the workers will be paid around 80% less. In the year it takes me to build the plant, I can train up the workers needed. We no longer possess any real advantage over other countries in terms of manufacturing.

Second, the notion of an acceptable lifestyle has changed radically since the 1950's or 1960's. Our 'middle class' working man of 1960 did not have an air conditioner in his house, had one black and white tv, a single (used) car, rarrely travelled outside a 50 mile radius of his home, washed his hair once a week, wore the same shirt several days running if he worked in an office and ate a lot more simply and a lot less than we do today. By our standards, the middle class of my youth was, well, poor. Ask a factory worker today to accept that lifestyle and be prepared for lawsuits.

Yes, there have been huge productivity gains since then; but most of these have been driven by technology and automation. Is today's factory worker producing more value with his labor than his grandfather? The answer is pretty clearly 'NO'. What supports higher factory wages is fewer workers per unit of production.

We are living beyond our means as a country and expect far too much in the way of compensation. It is unsustainable. And, as much as I think unions are wrong headed, I also find 'managerial' compensation to be laughable. Mr. 40-year old sales VP making $150,000 a year, are you worth that? Really? Or are you just a lucky SOB who happened to be sitting in the right chair when your product got hot? $8 or $10 mill a year 'CEO's', are you really doing a better job than some 30 year old with common sense? I really doubt it. We can see from Wall Street that the whiz kids there were in actuality sheep with arcane vocabularies and great suits. And so forth. Likewise the assembly line worker. Does spinning a wrench or mounting an engine 8 hours a day really justify two cars, a hunting cabin up in the mountains, college ed for the kiddies and a carnival cruise with the wife each winter? I don't think so.

If we're worried about 'the common man' how about we help him get OUT of factory work and into something with a future. Instead of piling further impediments on our manufacturers.

[pphilfran]

I said I was going to excuse myself from the thread...but, Kanto, that was a damn good response....

[StoopTroup]

I'm sure that the near bankruptcy was al management's fault and had nothing to do with overpaid, unskilled workers.

Yes it was. If there are Unskilled workers in a company....it's not because the Unions hired them.

[OUMallen]

you are correct...in the same sense that it's not the fall that kills you, but the sudden stop at the bottom.

Whether we choose to accept it or not, we live in a global economy. We can poke our fingers in our ears and scream 'I don't hear you!' all we want and it won't change. None of the so-called 'low cost' countries are 'cheating'. You can simply make a bath towel a hell of a lot cheaper in India than in South Carolina.

To erect trade barriers around your country to prop up uncompetitive industries is simply an indirect tax on your citizens and an impediment to your own exports and technological development.

Labor unions' efforts to jack up wages may help for a season or two, but ultimately lead to the GM scenario, which serves no one's interests.

In my view, two things have happened. First, the rest of the world has gotten a lot more competitive. Put all the arguments about sweat shops and lax regulation aside. Those things contribute but are not fundamental. The fundamental fact is that manufacturing is now quite fungible. It's portable. I can, given $3 billion or so, builld the same Intel chiip plant in South China that I'd build in Oregon or Phoenix. And it will have the same productivity and quality of production. And the workers will be paid around 80% less. In the year it takes me to build the plant, I can train up the workers needed. We no longer possess any real advantage over other countries in terms of manufacturing.

Second, the notion of an acceptable lifestyle has changed radically since the 1950's or 1960's. Our 'middle class' working man of 1960 did not have an air conditioner in his house, had one black and white tv, a single (used) car, rarrely travelled outside a 50 mile radius of his home, washed his hair once a week, wore the same shirt several days running if he worked in an office and ate a lot more simply and a lot less than we do today. By our standards, the middle class of my youth was, well, poor. Ask a factory worker today to accept that lifestyle and be prepared for lawsuits.

Yes, there have been huge productivity gains since then; but most of these have been driven by technology and automation. Is today's factory worker producing more value with his labor than his grandfather? The answer is pretty clearly 'NO'. What supports higher factory wages is fewer workers per unit of production.

We are living beyond our means as a country and expect far too much in the way of compensation. It is unsustainable. And, as much as I think unions are wrong headed, I also find 'managerial' compensation to be laughable. Mr. 40-year old sales VP making $150,000 a year, are you worth that? Really? Or are you just a lucky SOB who happened to be sitting in the right chair when your product got hot? $8 or $10 mill a year 'CEO's', are you really doing a better job than some 30 year old with common sense? I really doubt it. We can see from Wall Street that the whiz kids there were in actuality sheep with arcane vocabularies and great suits. And so forth. Likewise the assembly line worker. Does spinning a wrench or mounting an engine 8 hours a day really justify two cars, a hunting cabin up in the mountains, college ed for the kiddies and a carnival cruise with the wife each winter? I don't think so.

If we're worried about 'the common man' how about we help him get OUT of factory work and into something with a future. Instead of piling further impediments on our manufacturers.

Nice post.

I agree with most of it. We ought to start another thread about the impact of ever-increasing globalization of economies. Globalization is only going to be a terrible thing for the US unless we can somehow out-innovate and out-maneuver everyone. When your economy is the best, and you throw it into the pot with everyone else with increasingly-equal competition and average them all together, we can only go down. The way way pay for oil is a great example of that.

[Midtowner]

The sole goal of the Teamsters I worked with was to maximize pay and benefits (which were already exhorbitant in virtually every market) while presenting every possible obstacle to productivity and profit.

Isn't management's goal to maximize their own pay and profits? Why shouldn't employees go after their cut as aggressively as management?

[OUMallen]

Isn't management's goal to maximize their own pay and profits? Why shouldn't employees go after their cut as aggressively as management?

STOP USING YOUR LIBERAL, SOCIALIST LOGIC!

You bet your *** management will put as many workers out on the street as needed to maximize $$. It always surprises me that people are so anti-union without thought given that we all know someone that was a good and valuable employee be fired or laid off for whatever reason.

[KantoSooner]

Nice post.

I agree with most of it. We ought to start another thread about the impact of ever-increasing globalization of economies. Globalization is only going to be a terrible thing for the US unless we can somehow out-innovate and out-maneuver everyone. When your economy is the best, and you throw it into the pot with everyone else with increasingly-equal competition and average them all together, we can only go down. The way way pay for oil is a great example of that.

We have some built in points in our favor. Primary is that we're a nation of self-made people. We don't drag around 2,000 years of caste system, etc. And being more on a par with other countries is not bad. It would solve the illegal alien situation, for example, if there were good jobs in Mexico. Plus, we do better when we're not trying to lead the planet. Let the Brazilians and Indians carry some of the load.
I especially enjoy watching the Chinese navy deal with Somali pirates. Not a lot of Miranda reading going on.

[StoopTroup]

Who is going to fix your stuff? I mean that's such a complete one view statement. I know so many folks already who really work hard just to make ends meet.

I work with guys who have degrees in Engineering that make guys who work in IT look like imbeciles when it comes to even Computers. If it wasn't for many of them deciding that fixing things was where it's at nothing would work in our Country.

Many of them are happy at 40-70,000 a year. But they see people who take managerial roles that make the $150,000 you are talking about and do nothing but talk **** about things they know nothing about and make promises to their bosses that they can get things done they don't know **** about. They get hung out to dry and all that happens is you have to start training another guy that makes more than you to answer to the boss.

[Midtowner]

STOP USING YOUR LIBERAL, SOCIALIST LOGIC!

You bet your *** management will put as many workers out on the street as needed to maximize $$. It always surprises me that people are so anti-union without thought given that we all know someone that was a good and valuable employee be fired or laid off for whatever reason.

On a philosophical level, it seems many who approach this subject think that management is always benevolent, caring, working to better the lives of everyone in the company. That belief ignores what capitalism is all about.

We're all in the game to make as much money as possible--with the possible narrow exception of teachers, D.H.S. caseworkers, nuns and priests. What is morally wrong with one group of people pursuing to maximize their pay when that's exactly what the rest of us are doing?

[StoopTroup]

We're all in the game to make as much money as possible--with the possible narrow exception of teachers, D.H.S. caseworkers, nuns and priests. What is morally wrong with one group of people pursuing to maximize their pay when that's exactly what the rest of us are doing?

That's what's changed. Anyone who thinks that moving a Company over seas to make something because they can get cheap labor hasn't been looking at anything but money.

What has transpired is you now even see commercials about Credit Card Companies who use foreigners to handle their complaint and service lines. As soon as Toyota had problems with it's cars accelerating uncontrollably you have folks saying they are looking into it instead of folks saying....if you are concerned with your car....take it into your dealer or make an appointment to see if anything is wrong....you just see the head of Toyota ducking Reporters and trying to save face.

Americans are tired of being taken advantage of for profits and now the folks who have made millions and in some cases billions don't give a **** if you like it or not.

[StoopTroup]

I forget which show i saw this on but these guys were making huge amounts of profits off the Stock markets by using software to track up and down trends and buy low and sell high in things that even a genius couldn't track. Stuff like that that really manipulates the market and send false signals out that maybe a stock is being played is one thing but these happen so fast and so often that the average guy or even the above average guy doesn't even know it's going on.

The guys that are doing this....they aren't doing anything that leads to making our Country great. They are a private group of people who are trying to rake in as much as they can before someone decides this isn't good for our Country. They live extravagant lives, own private jets and basically make financial kings of themselves. They don't invest in anything they simply rake off the bottom and live in secret.

[StoopTroup]

philosophical level.....lol

Every one has the right to make money.....lol

It's not that kind of playing field anymore.

I think they are called Micro-Quake Strategy


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[GKeeper316]

You can simply make a bath towel a hell of a lot cheaper in India than in South Carolina.

now look at housing costs and cost of living in india and south carolina and tell me how someone in south carolina is supposed to live off the wage of the dude in india.

[KantoSooner]

Keeper, that's the point! You can't do it. Does that mean that everybody else in the country should be forced to buy $50 bath towels? I don't think so. What I do think is that the company in s. Caro better move overseas or sell its equipment to the Indians, pronto, because their business model is shot. And we, as a country, need to work out some way for the poor schmuck who's been standing there waiting for the red light to go 'on' on the weaving machine to get retrained for something else.
And coddling either the worker or the company is senseless.

[tommieharris91]

WTF is this, no nonsense Friday? I've seen a lot of great posts on hot-button topics today.

[OUMallen]

WTF is this, no nonsense Friday? I've seen a lot of great posts on hot-button topics today.

No kidding. PLUS this thread didn't spiral into flaming. Just decently thought-out points being made!

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Unions knocked up my cat.

[Jacie]

I'd think it would be pretty rare. I mean which cones first, the chicken or the egg?

The egg . . .

[tommieharris91]

Unions knocked up my cat.

Greedy CEOs ran over my dog. :(

[OUMallen]

aaaaaaaaand there goes our informative thread.

[StoopTroup]

The egg . . .

I always start the bacon first

[StoopTroup]

Do you have to be Muslim to get a license to drive a cab?

[soonerscuba]

I forget which show i saw this on but these guys were making huge amounts of profits off the Stock markets by using software to track up and down trends and buy low and sell high in things that even a genius couldn't track. Stuff like that that really manipulates the market and send false signals out that maybe a stock is being played is one thing but these happen so fast and so often that the average guy or even the above average guy doesn't even know it's going on.

The guys that are doing this....they aren't doing anything that leads to making our Country great. They are a private group of people who are trying to rake in as much as they can before someone decides this isn't good for our Country. They live extravagant lives, own private jets and basically make financial kings of themselves. They don't invest in anything they simply rake off the bottom and live in secret.Any trading house uses algorithms these days, you have too. Goldman, UBS, etc have a responsibility to their clients and their shareholders to make profits, there is nothing illegal about the process.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Do you have to be Muslim to get a license to drive a cab?

Muslim TERRORIST UNION.

Derka derka.

[StoopTroup]

Any trading house uses algorithms these days, you have too. Goldman, UBS, etc have a responsibility to their clients and their shareholders to make profits, there is nothing illegal about the process.

Again....I don't think I even have the right story or process. I was just fishing to see if anyone else knew what I was talking about....lol

[soonerscuba]

Again....I don't think I even have the right story or process. I was just fishing to see if anyone else knew what I was talking about....lolBasically, since the advent of digital trading, people well north of anybody on this board on the IQ front mathematically set up equations that read market metrics and then make trades based on certain data. They can make thousands of trades a minute without human interaction. This has lead to something a brain trust arms race between firms to build the best algorithms, and is a major factor of why a lot of our elite science talent is moving to Wall Street.

[StoopTroup]

Basically, since the advent of digital trading, people well north of anybody on this board on the IQ front mathematically set up equations that read market metrics and then make trades based on certain data. They can make thousands of trades a minute without human interaction. This has lead to something a brain trust arms race between firms to build the best algorithms, and is a major factor of why a lot of our elite science talent is moving to Wall Street.

That was it....Al Gore Rhythms. I knew that bastid was involved.....

[GKeeper316]

Any trading house uses algorithms these days, you have too. Goldman, UBS, etc have a responsibility to their clients and their shareholders to make profits, there is nothing illegal about the process.

but what they are doing now, while not illegal, yet, is really really unethical at the very least...

look into microtransactions.

[OUMallen]

Basically, since the advent of digital trading, people well north of anybody on this board on the IQ front mathematically set up equations that read market metrics and then make trades based on certain data. They can make thousands of trades a minute without human interaction. This has lead to something a brain trust arms race between firms to build the best algorithms, and is a major factor of why a lot of our elite science talent is moving to Wall Street.

This is 105% true

Smartest guy in my class from the OK Sch of Science and Math had a 1590 SAT. Went to Harvard. When he went to college, he had the idea to study and create medical technology. Instead, he ended up on Wall Street and made vulgar amounts of money. I don't blame the guy.

[StoopTroup]

My Brother Graduated from OU in Mathematics.

He can't manage his checkbook as it's to much trouble. He's got enough money....why spend the time adding it all up.

Logic

[soonercruiser]

no, but generally, unions will have standards by which you must adhere to in order to gain admission into said union.

Yes! And the first standard in many unions is that you must join the union before you can be hired, become an apprentice, or certified.

[StoopTroup]

I here NY is gonna pass unions for you all that were being discriminated against.

[soonercruiser]

That's exactly what Boeing should do....is pack the hell up and get the hell out. Then maybe all the guys that now think they can get funding to build aircraft can get started hiring Boeing's workforce and start building some quality Aircraft rather than the Union pieces of crap they are making now.

Gee! Wonder why so many countries around the world have, and are going to...... buy soooo many Boeing aircraft? Guess they are just soooo many dumb people around the world!
:rolleyes:

[soonercruiser]

Speaking of unions, I'm worried that Boeing is gonna pack up and leave for overseas if this South Carolina mess doesn't get resolved. It really makes me go wtf when they

1- Build a billion dollar plant in South Carolina, a right-to-work state
2- Mention that it might have something to do with the fact that the Washington state unionized plant's previous strikes has caused them to need to seek a plan that results in less work stoppage in the future.
3- Expand the unionized workforce in Washington state while building the South Carolina plant
4- Vows to layoff no Washington state unionized workers once the South Carolina non-union plant is operational.

Sorry if we've already had a discussion on this. I can't keep South Oval arguments straight :(

A picture is worth a thousand posts!

http://members.cox.net/franklipsinic/Obama/Boeing%20NLRB%20prey.jpg

[StoopTroup]

Gee! Wonder why so many countries around the world have, and are going to...... buy soooo many Boeing aircraft? Guess they are just soooo many dumb people around the world!
:rolleyes:

It makes one wonder why......if there are only 2 manufactures in the World and Boeing is getting most of the market, that having a new Non-Union Facility in SC is so damned important then huh?

[OutlandTrophy]

http://www.airlinesafety.com/images/EasternUnemploymentVictory.jpg

I love this picture

[StoopTroup]

http://www.airlinesafety.com/images/EasternUnemploymentVictory.jpg

I love this picture

You realize Lorenzo and everyone at Eastern's management Team lost their jobs right?

You do know that Frank basically had to learn to fly himself around until he was forgotten in the airline industry as no pilot of Flight Attendant that knew he was on board would take the plane from the gate.

Yeah he showed them....lol

Also....a good number of the folks you think stood in that line went to USAir and United....Frank never worked in Aviation again and did little to make it cheaper for you the Traveling Public.

[OutlandTrophy]

no **** he lost his job, the Unions at Eastern killed that company, that's what the cartoon shows.

the Union really showed him!! lol

[StoopTroup]

no **** he lost his job, the Unions at Eastern killed that company, that's what the cartoon shows.

the Union really showed him!! lol

Ummmm no.....All of Easterns planes were sold and all the people who worked there just moved and the Company was just absorbed.

No one really lost any jobs....they just refused to work for that dick head.

Now if you had said...Lorenzo had gotten rid of all the employees and Eastern went on to become one of the best run Airlines and everyone there that flipped on the Union are now happier than they every were while working under Union conditions....

You'd have something.

[OutlandTrophy]

Ummmm no.....All of Easterns planes were sold and all the people who worked there just moved and the Company was just absorbed.

No one really lost any jobs....they just refused to work for that dick head.

Now if you had said...Lorenzo had gotten rid of all the employees and Eastern went on to become one of the best run Airlines and everyone there that flipped on the Union are now happier than they every were while working under Union conditions....

You'd have something.

are you lying or just ignorant?

[StoopTroup]

are you lying or just ignorant?

Are you just stupid or retarded?

Time and history are on my side.

[OutlandTrophy]

you're not smart enough to know what ignorant means. For that, I'm sorry.

[StoopTroup]

you're not smart enough to know what ignorant means. For that, I'm sorry.

You can't fix stupid.

[OutlandTrophy]

LOL!!!

I hear you've been going to the doctor an awfuly lot lately...

LOL!!!!

[OutlandTrophy]

If I had to guess I'd say that you are a union mechanic. Am I right?

That is, when you did actually work, you were a union mechanic, right?

For the sake of full disclosure regarding this discussion.

[StoopTroup]

LOL!!!

I hear you've been going to the doctor an awfuly lot lately...

LOL!!!!

Well you'd be wrong.

Who do you see? If I decide that maybe I'm not handling personal attacks well and do want to see someone, I might want to avoid seeing the guy you see.

[OutlandTrophy]

Jenny Craig. Jenny would be good for you.

[StoopTroup]

Jenny Craig. Jenny would be good for you.

I don't make jokes about sick people so I'll let up on you.

[olevetonahill]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4140/4884343196_c300b76970.jpg

[StoopTroup]

I never wear blue

[olevetonahill]

:D

[pphilfran]

Children!