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I Am Right
6/21/2011, 07:59 PM
The Obama Watch
Operation Fast and Spurious
By W. James Antle, III on 6.21.11 @ 6:10AM

Federal firearms agents feared it would backfire. Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA), chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, has called it "felony stupid." The response to Operation Fast and Furious has lived up to the program's name, with the Obama administration under scrutiny for what now seems like a tragically harebrained scheme.

An initiative of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Fast and Furious was a gun-running sting operation that has gone badly awry, letting hundreds of weapons flow into the hands of Mexican drug cartels and leaving at least one federal agent dead.

When someone walks into an American gun shop to purchase weapons and then pass them along to Mexican drug gangs, it had always been standard operating procedure for the federal government to build cases against these suspected straw buyers quickly and interdict the weapons.

The brainstorm behind Operation Fast and Furious was that letting some of these straw buyers walk off with the semiautomatic weapons would enable the government to move away from targeting small buyers and instead bring down entire arms trafficking networks when the guns were traced. Unfortunately, the weapons too often turned up again only after they had been used in subsequent crimes, including murders.

Two guns linked to Operation Fast and Furious were found at the scene of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry's December slaying in Arizona. Terry's mother was asked what she would say to those responsible if a gun being tracked under the program was the one that killed her son. "I do not know what I would say to them," she said, "but I would want to know what they'd say to me."

All told, over 2,000 guns -- including AK-47s and .50-caliber rifles, and more than 10,000 rounds of ammunition -- were allowed to "walk" into the possession of Mexican drug lords. The ATF admits that nearly 800 of these guns were used in crimes on both sides of the border, endangering American and Mexican lives alike.

Special agents John Dodson, Olindo "Lee" Casa, and Peter Forcelli all told Issa's congressional committee that their superiors ordered them to allow suspects to walk away with dangerous weapons, often over their strenuous objections. The agents testified that the strategy was never very likely to work, because serial numbers were the only means by which they could track the guns. GPS technology was unavailable. Forcelli called the techniques "delusional," estimating that guns wound up in Mexico twice as often as the United States, and Casa said he had never heard of letting guns walk before he worked in the ATF's Phoenix office.

The consensus is that Operation Fast and Furious was "reckless" and a "disaster." Now the only question is how far up the chain of command the decision-making went. President Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder have both said that they did not authorize the program. So who did? So far senior ATF officials have taken the brunt of the blame, but lawmakers are looking at the Justice Department.

"The department's leadership allowed the ATF to implement this flawed strategy, fully aware of what was taking place on the ground," Issa and Sen. Charles Grassley (R-IA) concluded in their report. "This hapless plan allowed the guns in question to disappear out of the agency's view. As a result, this chain of events inevitably placed the guns in the hands of violent criminals."

Congressional investigators uncovered Justice Department memos urging a different approach to handling border violence. "Given the national scope of this issue, merely seizing firearms through interdiction will not stop firearms trafficking to Mexico," reads an October 2009 memo from then Deputy Attorney General David Ogden's office. "We must identify, investigate, and eliminate the sources of illegally trafficked firearms and the networks that transport them."

Issa's committee has leaked emails showing the acting director of the ATF, Kenneth Melson, and his acting deputy, William Hoover, received weekly updates on the operation's progress. The Wall Street Journal reported that Melson may be ousted this week in connection with the Operation Fast and Furious controversy.

Attempts to discover more information have led to a standoff between the Oversight Committee and the Obama Justice Department. Last week, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich protested that some of the requested documents would endanger ongoing prosecutions. Issa held up an entirely redacted document and shouted at Weich. "How dare you make an opening statement of cooperation!" the chairman thundered. "You've given us black paper."

Special agent Forcelli said simply, "Someone needs to step up and say, 'We made a mistake.'" Things are getting furiouser and furiouser.

SoCaliSooner
6/21/2011, 08:28 PM
The Obama Watch
Operation Fast and Spurious
By W. James Antle, III on 6.21.11 @ 6:10AM.

Attempts to discover more information have led to a standoff between the Oversight Committee and the Obama Justice Department. Last week, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich protested that some of the requested documents would endanger ongoing prosecutions. Issa held up an entirely redacted document and shouted at Weich. "How dare you make an opening statement of cooperation!" the chairman thundered. "You've given us a black piece of paper"

Impossible. Obama said this is the most transparent administration, ever. They will one day even put all bills online for five days for public comment before they are signed into law like he promised....it's just taking 2 1/2 years.

StoopTroup
6/21/2011, 08:53 PM
http://biggovernment.com/files/2011/06/Project-Gunrunner-graphic.jpg

A bit better explanation IMO....

“Project Gunrunner” (A.K.A Fast and Furious)Was a project of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Fireworks In late 2009, the ATF was alerted to suspicious buys at seven gun shops in the Phoenix area. Suspicious because the buyers paid cash, sometimes brought in paper bags. And they purchased classic “weapons of choice” used by Mexican drug traffickers – semi-automatic versions of military type rifles and pistols. According to news reports several gun shops wanted to stop the questionable sales, but Bureau encouraged them to continue.

ATF managers allegedly made a controversial decision: allow most of the weapons on the streets. The idea, they said, was to gather intelligence and see where the guns ended up. Insiders say it’s a dangerous tactic called letting the guns, “walk.” Yes, that’s right, the US government decided–in order to fight the Mexican Drug Cartels, we should arm them and let them keep their weapons once they were used in committing crimes (kind of the same thing we do with the Palestinian terror groups such as Fatah).

The House Oversight Report includes testimony from four (ATF) agents offering firsthand accounts about the Operation Fast and Furious that allowed suspects to walk away with illegally purchased guns. Two of the approximately 2,000 guns that ATF let criminals walk away with were found at the murder scene of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry in December 2010.

in other words....it's not a new strategy....


(kind of the same thing we do with the Palestinian terror groups such as Fatah)

yermom
6/21/2011, 08:55 PM
that's one way to get rid of some of the guns in the country

StoopTroup
6/21/2011, 08:56 PM
I could have used a .50 cal

sooner ngintunr
6/21/2011, 09:01 PM
in other words....it's not a new strategy....

It's a new strategy for this administrations justice dept. Just more evidence that the ATF is as useless as ever.

I guess this gets filed under "oops"

StoopTroup
6/21/2011, 09:04 PM
Maybe they are just being more transparent?

Breadburner
6/21/2011, 09:08 PM
The ATF really ****s some **** up.....I would be embaressed to work for that outfit....

MR2-Sooner86
6/21/2011, 09:14 PM
Lets see, Ruby Ridge, Waco, and Operation Fast and Furious, quite an impressive Résumé they're building.

TitoMorelli
6/21/2011, 09:16 PM
Heads at the ATF oughta roll for this one. I don't think this is necessarily tied to the current administration, except that for some reason Holder seems to be fudging.

Not sure if the article mentions it, but reports I've read indicate that ATF officials actually pressured salesmen at gun shows to sell even when doing so violated the law. On top of that, the clowns apparently had no way of following the trail once the guns crossed the border. I guess they figured they could connect the dots when they were in the hands of cartel members and being used against our own law enforcement personnel.

Insane.

cantwait48
6/21/2011, 11:02 PM
Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms
should be the name of a convenience store, not a federal agency

SoCaliSooner
6/21/2011, 11:39 PM
Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms
should be the name of a convenience store

Walmart...

StoopTroup
6/22/2011, 08:03 AM
Emergency Over ! !

Top Cartel Leader Captured



Mexican authorities captured the top leader of one of the country's most violent drug cartels Tuesday, officials said.

Federal police captured Jose de Jesus Mendez Vargas, also known as "The Monkey," in an operation in the state of Aguascalientes, Mexico's national security spokesman said.

Spokesman Alejandro Poire called Mendez the "principal head" of La Familia Michoacana cartel and said his capture was the federal government's "most overwhelming blow" to the group.

"This capture destroys what remained of the leadership structure of this criminal organization," he said.

Mexican President Felipe Calderon praised the capture on his official Twitter account: "A large blow by federal police to organized crime. One of the most wanted criminals was captured. Congratulations."

Mexico's Attorney General's Office had offered a 30 million peso ($2.5 million) reward for information leading to his arrest, saying Mendez was the mastermind behind drug trafficking, kidnappings and killings.

Tuesday's operation marks the fall of 21 of the suspects on Mexico's "most dangerous criminals" list, Poire said.

No deaths or violent clashes have been reported from Tuesday's operation, he said.

La Familia began operating in the state of Michoacan more than a decade ago, the country's national security spokesman told reporters last year. But it grabbed national attention in 2006 after reportedly hurling five decapitated heads of rival gang members onto a dance floor.

Mexico's public safety secretary has said Mendez was responsible for passing on the organization's values to new generations of drug runners in the cartel. Along with other leaders, he helped expand La Familia's reach to other Mexican states.

jk the sooner fan
6/22/2011, 08:08 AM
there's a good article written on this whole thing in the latest issue of American Rifleman

i'm at a loss for words really to describe how i feel about this whole deal

disgusted comes to mind....

StoopTroup
6/22/2011, 08:21 AM
I just hope all of those guns end up in the Mexican Police Hands.

I didn't read anywhere that we gave them ammo for them all?

I heard ammo is an integral part of a gun.

sappstuf
6/22/2011, 08:24 AM
I just hope all of those guns end up in the Mexican Police Hands.

I didn't read anywhere that we gave them ammo for them all?

I heard ammo is an integral part of a gun.


All told, over 2,000 guns -- including AK-47s and .50-caliber rifles, and more than 10,000 rounds of ammunition -- were allowed to "walk" into the possession of Mexican drug lords. The ATF admits that nearly 800 of these guns were used in crimes on both sides of the border, endangering American and Mexican lives alike.


...

StoopTroup
6/22/2011, 08:31 AM
I'd like to buy every AK-47 I can for $55.

http://mjm.luckygunner.com/2011/06/19/update-on-last-post-fast-and-furious-the-pr-war-against-american-gun-owners/

StoopTroup
6/22/2011, 08:55 AM
American Rifleman has a good article on the "Sons of Guns" show that had 16 episodes last year. They are ready to go with more in July. I did enjoy the show.

pphilfran
6/22/2011, 10:31 AM
When did the operation start?

I find it difficult to blame Obama...I doubt if he knew the details of the plan...he is not all knowing...

TheHumanAlphabet
6/22/2011, 10:45 AM
More people than just he acting head of the ATF need to lose their jobs. I wish this could be pinned on O'bummer directly, but doubt that will be the case. Nevertheless, people at ATF, Justice and elsewhere need to lose their jobs over this stupidity.

The Profit
6/22/2011, 10:46 AM
More people than just he acting head of the ATF need to lose their jobs. I wish this could be pinned on O'bummer directly, but doubt that will be the case. Nevertheless, people at ATF, Justice and elsewhere need to lose their jobs over this stupidity.



The planning for all of this started under the George W. Bush administration.

pphilfran
6/22/2011, 11:00 AM
The planning for all of this started under the George W. Bush administration.

I would think that it would have started in his term but I have not been able to find a link stating a start date...

btw when you coming back down for lunch?

olevetonahill
6/22/2011, 11:03 AM
The planning for all of this started under the George W. Bush administration.

Ya dayum skippy, Every thing is GWs fault, Hell look how he caused Katrina. Ill bet he even had sompun to do with the Joplin tornadoes :rolleyes:

The Profit
6/22/2011, 11:04 AM
Going to L-Town on Saturday for my cousin's birthday, but that will just be a family gig. I will be down again in a couple of weeks when all of the other work is completed at Cache. We will grab a bite somewhere. By the way, have you Googled 40-foot hole. There is a funny youtube video of two guys searching for it.

The Profit
6/22/2011, 11:05 AM
Ya dayum skippy, Every thing is GWs fault, Hell look how he caused Katrina. Ill bet he even had sompun to do with the Joplin tornadoes :rolleyes:




I will give him a pass on the tornadoes.:rolleyes:

olevetonahill
6/22/2011, 11:10 AM
I will give him a pass on the tornadoes.:rolleyes:

Not me, Hell According to every one it seems GW is to blame for all the bad **** happening in the world.
:rolleyes:

sappstuf
6/22/2011, 11:13 AM
The planning for all of this started under the George W. Bush administration.

Which means that the Obama administration had plenty of time to stop it. Instead they expanded it massively with stimulus money...

At some point you must stop blaming Bush for everything..

It is after that massive expansion that things really started going wrong.

It is extremely clear that Obama's appointees knew and were fully supportive of this operation..


The first e-mail from March 10, 2010, to Operation Fast and Furious Group VII Leader David Voth indicates that the two most senior leaders in ATF, Acting Director Kenneth Melson, and Deputy Director Billy Hoover, were “being briefed weekly on” Operation Fast and Furious. The document shows that both Melson and Hoover were “keenly interested in case updates.”

A second e-mail from March 12, 2010, shows that Deputy Assistant Director for Field Operations William McMahon was so excited about Fast and Furious that he received a special briefing on the program in Phoenix – scheduled for a mere 45 minutes after his plane landed.

A third – and perhaps the most disturbing – e-mail from April 12, 2010, indicates that Acting Director Melson was very much in the weeds with Operation Fast and Furious. After a detailed briefing of the program by the ATF Phoenix Field Division, Acting Director Melson had a plethora of follow-up questions that required additional research to answer. As the document indicates, Mr. Melson was interested in the IP Address for hidden cameras located inside cooperating gun shops. With this information, Acting Director Melson was able to sit at his desk in Washington and – himself – watch a live feed of the straw buyers entering the gun stores to purchase dozens of AK-47 variants.

pphilfran
6/22/2011, 11:13 AM
Going to L-Town on Saturday for my cousin's birthday, but that will just be a family gig. I will be down again in a couple of weeks when all of the other work is completed at Cache. We will grab a bite somewhere. By the way, have you Googled 40-foot hole. There is a funny youtube video of two guys searching for it.

Nope...I will have to look for it...

The Profit
6/22/2011, 11:14 AM
Which means that the Obama administration had plenty of time to stop it. Instead they expanded it massively with stimulus money...

At some point you must stop blaming Bush for everything..

It is after that massive expansion that things really started going wrong.

It is extremely clear that Obama's appointees knew and were fully supportive of this operation..



I hope I never run out of things for which to blame that worthless piece of manure. He nearly destroyed this nation, and shouldn't easily be forgiven.

olevetonahill
6/22/2011, 11:14 AM
Which means that the Obama administration had plenty of time to stop it. Instead they expanded it massively with stimulus money...

At some point you must stop blaming Bush for everything..

It is after that massive expansion that things really started going wrong.

It is extremely clear that Obama's appointees knew and were fully supportive of this operation..

Dont confuse the Far Left wackos with facts.

They are just as weird as the Far right Wackos.:rolleyes:

pphilfran
6/22/2011, 11:15 AM
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/010.jpg

olevetonahill
6/22/2011, 11:16 AM
I hope I never run out of things for which to blame that worthless piece of manure. He nearly destroyed this nation, and shouldn't easily be forgiven.

http://thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/baby.jpg

sappstuf
6/22/2011, 11:20 AM
I hope I never run out of things for which to blame that worthless piece of manure. He nearly destroyed this nation, and shouldn't easily be forgiven.

The recession ended over two years ago..... Who do we blame for 9.1%?

texaspokieokie
6/22/2011, 11:28 AM
Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms
should be the name of a convenience store, not a federal agency

It is !!!
there's a whole chain of them in south central L.A. !!!!!

they also do bail bonds.

soonerscuba
6/22/2011, 11:28 AM
The recession ended over two years ago..... Who do we blame for 9.1%?The labor market as evidenced by shifting demands within the American skill-set in a post internet society and emerging markets both expanding their manufacturing and human capital in an increasingly global business environment?

Or Bush.

The Profit
6/22/2011, 11:32 AM
http://thebsreport.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/baby.jpg




You're the one crying. I'm relatively happy. Texas has its idiot back. It will just take a while to get the nation back on track after what he did to it.

sappstuf
6/22/2011, 11:33 AM
Dont confuse the Far Left wackos with facts.

They are just as weird as the Far right Wackos.:rolleyes:

The Profit isn't a Far Left wacko... He reminds me more of a Lefty Grandpa Simpson..

ARXfQzfl9EQ

ZuAZa00alLY

olevetonahill
6/22/2011, 11:35 AM
You're the one crying. I'm relatively happy. Texas has its idiot back. It will just take a while to get the nation back on track after what he did to it.

So shaking my head at idiots is crying huh? whod a thunk it.:rolleyes:

The Profit
6/22/2011, 11:37 AM
So shaking my head at idiots is crying huh? whod a thunk it.:rolleyes:




As I said, I am happy. Now, go play with someone else.

pphilfran
6/22/2011, 11:38 AM
those two dudes in the vid were idiots....

I also found a rappelling video from 40 ft hole...rookies...while in Boy Scouts I rappelled down the same face when I was 14...probably a hundred times...I could go from the top to the bottom in one leap...my leather gloves would be smoking when I applied the brakes...only a rope Swiss harness around my waist...we also stretched a rope from one side of the canyon to the other and I slid out to the center and changed over a a vertical rope hanging from the horizontal rope and rappelled down...I was skeered...REAL skeered...

Enough hi jackiing...back to fun and games...

pphilfran
6/22/2011, 11:39 AM
The labor market as evidenced by shifting demands within the American skill-set in a post internet society and emerging markets both expanding their manufacturing and human capital in an increasingly global business environment?

Or Bush.

not bad...not bad at all...

sappstuf
6/22/2011, 11:41 AM
The labor market as evidenced by shifting demands within the American skill-set in a post internet society and emerging markets both expanding their manufacturing and human capital in an increasingly global business environment?

Or Bush.

How about overburdensome and excessive regulation in a time when the entire healthcare regulation is in flux causing businesses to put off hiring until things stabilize and they know what the true cost of hiring new personnel will be.

For example on my first point, Obama's NLRB fight to make Boeing close down a brand new factory and fire 1000 people because it is in a right to work state and move their business back to a union state...

If Boeing loses, you know what they will do? Open their next factory in Indonesia or where ever else they want to and they will be done with it.

Overburdensome and excessive.

olevetonahill
6/22/2011, 11:44 AM
Keep yer head there. Im sure yo will always be happy.:rolleyes:

pphilfran
6/22/2011, 11:51 AM
Keep yer head there. Im sure yo will always be happy.:rolleyes:

Profit is all right...he is much more mellow in person...

The two of us have battled for years....he pizzed me off so bad one time I called him an azzhole...and it takes a lot for me to call someone an azzhole....

sappstuf
6/22/2011, 11:53 AM
Profit is all right...he is much more mellow in person...

The two of us have battled for years....he pizzed me off so bad one time I called him an azzhole...and it takes a lot for me to call someone an azzhole....

Was that the time he called Porches overrated? ;)

StoopTroup
6/22/2011, 11:56 AM
How about overburdensome and excessive regulation in a time when the entire healthcare regulation is in flux causing businesses to put off hiring until things stabilize and they know what the true cost of hiring new personnel will be.

For example on my first point, Obama's NLRB fight to make Boeing close down a brand new factory and fire 1000 people because it is in a right to work state and move their business back to a union state...

If Boeing loses, you know what they will do? Open their next factory in Indonesia or where ever else they want to and they will be done with it.

Overburdensome and excessive.

You're wrong about Indonesia. They've tried it already and it doesn't work. The product sucked bad and nobody wanted a plane that was built there. Any idiot that would bring that idea up would be packing up his stuff and turning in his badge by he end of the week. That is unless they were just going to turn making airplanes over to Airbus in Europe.

Boeing already has a substantially less labor cost than Airbus. You do understand that the folks in Europe's laws regarding Aircraft are much more strict than the FAA.

It's a great idea for pencil pushers but they'll get fired for mentioning it at the very least probably sent to the mailroom to straighten out things there.

The Profit
6/22/2011, 11:57 AM
Was that the time he called Porches overrated? ;)




;) Now, that is funny.

sappstuf
6/22/2011, 11:57 AM
You're wrong about Indonesia. They've tried it already and it doesn't work. The product sucked bad and nobody wanted a plane that was built there.

Fine, South Korea...

pphilfran
6/22/2011, 11:59 AM
Was that the time he called Porches overrated? ;)

No...that wouldn't upset me...he was talking chit about the Boy Scouts...

SoCaliSooner
6/22/2011, 12:39 PM
When did the operation start?

I find it difficult to blame Obama...I doubt if he knew the details of the plan...he is not all knowing...

Bush was grilled and held to answer for a vague briefing in July of 2001 stating Al Qaeda was planning some kind of attack. Dems politicized it into saying Bush was responsible for not preventing it with....two months of warning.

Most of this was all going down for over a year under O...not just a vague memo a couple months before.

jk the sooner fan
6/22/2011, 12:42 PM
nearly destroyed the nation?

wow - my god, how did you ever survive.......how did ANY of us ever survive

when you use such absurd exaggerations, it means you're trying WAY too hard

The Profit
6/22/2011, 02:06 PM
No...that wouldn't upset me...he was talking chit about the Boy Scouts...




I actually liked the Boy Scouts. I was just giving you shiz.

The Profit
6/22/2011, 02:07 PM
nearly destroyed the nation?

wow - my god, how did you ever survive.......how did ANY of us ever survive

when you use such absurd exaggerations, it means you're trying WAY too hard




We haven't yet. As I stated earlier, we are still trying to pull ourselves out of the mess that he created. Just to think, he went into office with the largest budget surplus in American history...What he didn't screw up, he shiz on.

jk the sooner fan
6/22/2011, 02:20 PM
what party controlled both houses of congress the last full term of his presidency?

CrimsonCream
6/22/2011, 02:24 PM
If Boeing loses, you know what they will do? Open their next factory in Indonesia or where ever else they want to and they will be done with it.

I was thinking the same thing.

Why are jobs moving Overseas. Cheaper. Why? Because of all the worker contraints and corrupt Unions. Remember "Big Steel?" The Unions f*cked them over and then they got f*cked. Don't they ever learn.

I Am Right
6/22/2011, 06:03 PM
"Go ahead PUNK, make my day"

AlboSooner
6/22/2011, 06:06 PM
Totally obamas fault. Impeachzz

pphilfran
6/22/2011, 06:12 PM
I was thinking the same thing.

Why are jobs moving Overseas. Cheaper. Why? Because of all the worker contraints and corrupt Unions. Remember "Big Steel?" The Unions f*cked them over and then they got f*cked. Don't they ever learn.

Big steel did not update their factories when there was little competition...while other countries were building and operating much newer and more efficient facilities at lower labor costs...tariffs were not high enough to make up the difference...

TheHumanAlphabet
6/22/2011, 07:30 PM
The planning for all of this started under the George W. Bush administration.

Link?

Bourbon St Sooner
6/23/2011, 12:27 PM
Not me, Hell According to every one it seems GW is to blame for all the bad **** happening in the world.
:rolleyes:

GW hacked Weiner's Twitter account and sent out lewd pics to college chicks.

Bourbon St Sooner
6/23/2011, 12:27 PM
GW pissed on The Dude's rug.

Bourbon St Sooner
6/23/2011, 12:29 PM
GW created New Coke.

Bourbon St Sooner
6/23/2011, 12:30 PM
GW invented the wide gait.

Bourbon St Sooner
6/23/2011, 12:31 PM
GW told Apple to market it's IPhone excusively with AT&T.

Bourbon St Sooner
6/23/2011, 12:33 PM
GW told Bernanke the QE2 was a bitchin' idea.

Bourbon St Sooner
6/23/2011, 12:34 PM
GW invented "winning".

Bourbon St Sooner
6/23/2011, 12:36 PM
GW set Norm's yard on fire.