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TIMB0B
6/19/2011, 05:12 AM
"Let it not be said that no one cared, that no one objected once it’s realized that our liberties and wealth are in jeopardy." — Ron Paul

4XlIvVizhWY

Restore America now.

Who is Ron Paul? (http://www.ronpaul.com/who-is-ron-paul/)
Flagstaffsooner
6/19/2011, 05:32 AM
Up late drinking huh?
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 08:49 AM
"Believe me, the next step is a currency crisis because there will be a rejection of the dollar, the rejection of the dollar is a big, big event, and then your personal liberties are going to be severely threatened." - Ron Paul
royalfan5
6/21/2011, 09:06 AM
Considering we are all message board posters here, I think you can safely assume we have already been exposed to Ron Paul.
Midtowner
6/21/2011, 09:11 AM
Some of Paul's stuff, I can really get behind. I voted for him back in '08. I probably won't do that again. I've been very concerned about some positions his son has taken with regard to the environment. For example, being against the regulation of mountain top removal mining, which is clearly one of the most environmentally damaging practices ever conceived.
soonerscuba
6/21/2011, 09:14 AM
Considering we are all message board posters here, I think you can safely assume we have already been exposed to Ron Paul.Heh. I heard someone compare libertarians to vegans on righteous self-congratulatory front, I thought it was apt.
delhalew
6/21/2011, 11:22 AM
Considering we are all message board posters here, I think you can safely assume we have already been exposed to Ron Paul.

Exposed, yes. However, it is clear that far too many people aren't taking our problems seriously enough.
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 07:32 PM
Some of Paul's stuff, I can really get behind. I voted for him back in '08. I probably won't do that again. I've been very concerned about some positions his son has taken with regard to the environment. For example, being against the regulation of mountain top removal mining, which is clearly one of the most environmentally damaging practices ever conceived.

Government regulation has only invited corruption and crony capitalism through corporate lobbyists in bed with government. The free market would destroy companies with bad business practices whereas government regulated companies would continue to be propped up because of bribes and kickbacks to our congressmen. Look no further than the fannie and freddie debacle.

People need to know what the role of government should be, and understand that we have the 10th Amendment. If this mining company is a threat to the environment, the state(s) that house them can regulate them themselves.
sooner ngintunr
6/21/2011, 07:38 PM
Government regulation has only invited corruption and crony capitalism through corporate lobbyists in bed with government. The free market would destroy companies with bad business practices whereas government regulated companies would continue to be propped up because of bribes and kickbacks to our congressmen. Look no further than the fannie and freddie debacle.

Corporations don't self police on environmental policies. Govt is needed. This is where I differ from the Libertarians. I see they have "updated" their official stance on the environment since last I checked. LOL.
SpankyNek
6/21/2011, 07:38 PM
Government regulation has only invited corruption and crony capitalism through corporate lobbyists in bed with government. The free market would destroy companies with bad business practices whereas government regulated companies would continue to be propped up because of bribes and kickbacks to our congressmen. Look no further than the fannie and freddie debacle.

People need to know what the role of government should be, and understand that we have the 10th Amendment. If this mining company is a threat to the environment, the state(s) that house them can regulate them themselves.
So, Kenneth Lay, etc. should have gone free?
sooner ngintunr
6/21/2011, 07:44 PM
The free market would destroy companies with bad business practices

Not even close.
StoopTroup
6/21/2011, 07:51 PM
Before Frannie and Freddie collapsed I had some idiot tell my parents they needed to invest everything they have in FM n FM. At the same time there were plenty of folks saying that anyone that gave that advice ought to be put in Federal Prison. I guess some folks must not have been paying attention and thinking that the end of their own personal spending might be over.

Just because Ron Paul took the same info that was available to many folks doesn't make him some Financial Guru. I stopped my parents and they found a very safe place to put their money. I guess since I paid attention to the market I must be just as qualified as Ron Paul.
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 07:54 PM
So, Kenneth Lay, etc. should have gone free?

No.
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 07:56 PM
Before Frannie and Freddie collapsed I had some idiot tell my parents they needed to invest everything they have in FM n FM. At the same time there were plenty of folks saying that anyone that gave that advice ought to be put in Federal Prison. I guess some folks must not have been paying attention and thinking that the end of their own personal spending might be over.

Just because Ron Paul took the same info that was available to many folks doesn't make him some Financial Guru. I stopped my parents and they found a very safe place to put their money. I guess since I paid attention to the market I must be just as qualified as Ron Paul.

What year did you pay attention to fannie and freddie?
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 07:56 PM
Not even close.

Is Enron still around?
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 07:58 PM
Corporations don't self police on environmental policies. Govt is needed. This is where I differ from the Libertarians. I see they have "updated" their official stance on the environment since last I checked. LOL.

State governments can regulate.
SpankyNek
6/21/2011, 07:59 PM
No.

But, if the Federal Government is to abolish oversight of corporations, how can they possibly regulate post-facto ethics violations?

It is actually much cheaper for all of us to oversee and fine than it is to clean up and litigate the messes that would happen without it, IMO.
SpankyNek
6/21/2011, 08:01 PM
State governments can regulate.

So, who is to regulate when Corporate business crosses lines of state...Enron had holdings and exchanged tons of services across the borders of many (if not all) of the states in the union.
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 08:03 PM
But, if the Federal Government is to abolish oversight of corporations, how can they possibly regulate post-facto ethics violations?

It is actually much cheaper for all of us to oversee and fine than it is to clean up and litigate the messes that would happen without it, IMO.

The federal government is not needed. The state governments can regulate, and do so more effectively and cheap because it's local.
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 08:05 PM
So, who is to regulate when Corporate business crosses lines of state...Enron had holdings and exchanged tons of services across the borders of many (if not all) of the states in the union.

All states that deem it necessary to regulate.
sooner ngintunr
6/21/2011, 08:14 PM
Is Enron still around?

No. After violating numerous "evil" regulations and fleecing the American public out of 11 billion dollars, they went bankrupt. Yay for deregulation.
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 08:20 PM
No. After violating numerous "evil" regulations and fleecing the American public out of 11 billion dollars, they went bankrupt. Yay for deregulation.

And how did fannie and freddie do with government oversight, again?
StoopTroup
6/21/2011, 08:29 PM
What year did you pay attention to fannie and freddie?

It was before that black dude was in charge i think....
sooner ngintunr
6/21/2011, 08:29 PM
And how did fannie and freddie do with government oversight, again?

Aren't they a GSE to begin with?
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 08:30 PM
Aren't they a GSE to begin with?

Oh, I see. So it's okay for the government to **** up with our money.
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 08:37 PM
It was before that black dude was in charge i think....

Franklin Raines. He became the CEO during the Clinton administration, I believe. It's a shame we didn't have you as a whistle blower back then.
Midtowner
6/21/2011, 08:37 PM
People need to know what the role of government should be, and understand that we have the 10th Amendment. If this mining company is a threat to the environment, the state(s) that house them can regulate them themselves.

Ah yes, because we can totally, based on previous experience, expect the states to do this, right? The feds have the power to regulate the environment, that's well settled. The 10th doesn't come in here.

You have to realize that we have the EPA because without regulation, corporations were poisoning children with lead, rivers were catching on fire, etc. The EPA is one of the most successful governmental programs ever. Lobbyists and crony capitalists are chipping away at that, but it's a lot more difficult to corrupt a federal organization than a state organization. Especially the way the EPA is set up.

The EPA at the federal level sets standards which the states are supposed to enforce and be checked up on by the feds. If the states fail to meet standards, the feds get to take over. It's a pretty well thought out program.
sooner ngintunr
6/21/2011, 08:37 PM
Oh, I see. So it's okay for the government to **** up with our money.

huh?

I think you should read up on the sub prime crisis and the S&L scandal. Deregulation has never worked, you end up with "too big to fail"(Complete collapse of entire industries). Socialism for the rich is all deregulation amounts to. At least that what history has shown.

I like clean air and water.;)
MR2-Sooner86
6/21/2011, 08:37 PM
No. After violating numerous "evil" regulations and fleecing the American public out of 11 billion dollars, they went bankrupt.

What government regulations are you talking about? The one where the California government grants a monopoly to a single energy provider for each geographic area, eliminating competition?

How about Clinton trying to help Enron out with a power plant deal in India, seeing as how they donated to his campaign?

What about the Export-Import Bank subsidies they received?

Yeah, this was free-market capitalism run amok.
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 08:43 PM
Aren't they a GSE to begin with?

Also, don't forget Madoff, who in fact did have all of that government regulation you so covet.

The fact of the matter is, criminals (or unethical people) will figure out a way to game whatever system is in place. It is up to the investors (such as Stoop Troup) to do their due diligence investigating a company before they decide to do business.

And what happened to Lay and Madoff? They were prosecuted.

What happened to Franklin Raines? Nada.
SpankyNek
6/21/2011, 08:50 PM
Also, don't forget Madoff, who in fact did have all of that government regulation you so covet.

The fact of the matter is, criminals (or unethical people) will figure out a way to game whatever system is in place. It is the investor's (such as Stoop Troup) to do their due diligence investigating a company before they decide to do business.

And what happened to Lay and Madoff? They were prosecuted.

What happened to Franklin Raines? Nada.

They were FEDERALLY prosecuted, something neither you nor Mr.Paul has commented on yet.
sooner ngintunr
6/21/2011, 08:50 PM
What government regulations are you talking about? The one where the California government grants a monopoly to a single energy provider for each geographic area, eliminating competition?

How about Clinton trying to help Enron out with a power plant deal in India, seeing as how they donated to his campaign?

What about the Export-Import Bank subsidies they received?

Yeah, this was free-market capitalism run amok.

Insider trading and fraud mostly.

I know where you are coming from. I lived in Ca. when that went down, I would say the state still hasn't recovered.
sooner ngintunr
6/21/2011, 08:56 PM
And what happened to Lay and Madoff? They were prosecuted.


For violating those federal laws you seem to think are not needed. You would rather have them run free (market)?
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 08:59 PM
They were FEDERALLY prosecuted, something neither you nor Mr.Paul has commented on yet.

Who prosecutes is not the argument. It's who should regulate: the state or federal govt?
SpankyNek
6/21/2011, 09:01 PM
Who prosecutes is not the argument. It's who should regulate: the state or federal govt?

All commerce that crosses state lines should be regulated by the Federal government.
StoopTroup
6/21/2011, 09:03 PM
W
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 09:04 PM
For violating those federal laws you seem to think are not needed. You would rather have them run free (market)?

You see, this is the problem with people who don't understand the 10th Amendment. You think that if we lift mandates and regulations at the federal level that somehow there won't be any of those in place at the state level.
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 09:10 PM
All commerce that crosses state lines should be regulated by the Federal government.

That just opens the door for the fraud to be covered up and/or ignored by the bureaucracies because they will receive bribes and kickbacks.
MR2-Sooner86
6/21/2011, 09:11 PM
All commerce that crosses state lines should be regulated by the Federal government.


[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;

Show me where it says private enterprises and not just limited to public.

Is the commerce with foreign nations refer to the United States and it's business with other nations? Is the commerce between States the actual States?
TIMB0B
6/21/2011, 09:18 PM
huh?

you end up with "too big to fail"(Complete collapse of entire industries).

We ended up with too big to fail because the government was involved.
SpankyNek
6/21/2011, 09:20 PM
What would you purport is "Public Commerce" among the states, and what is the Feds role in regulating those things?


I think that in cases of discrepancy, even in private enterprise, the Fed is inferred as the rule. Can a person in Oklahoma run a prostitution house in Nevada, for example?