Goodbye Ethanol

[okie52]

U.S. Senate approves Coburn amendment to kill ethanol subsidies

After voting it down earlier in the week, the Senate reversed course and approved legislation authored by Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Muskogee, and Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., that would end ethanol subsidies.

By CHRIS CASTEEL NewsOK.com
Published: 6/16/2011 2:34 PM
Last Modified: 6/16/2011 2:34 PM


WASHINGTON — Two days after rejecting Sen. Tom Coburn's move to kill ethanol subsidies, the Senate on Thursday reversed course and overwhelmingly approved the legislation he authored with a California Democrat.


Democrats had objected to Coburn's aggressive move to force a vote on Tuesday, but proved Thursday that they agreed with his core arguments that ethanol production shouldn't be subsidized by taxpayers.

The vote on Thursday was 73 to 27 for the amendment, written by Coburn, R-Muskogee, and Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.


.

[OutlandTrophy]

nice

[yermom]

interesting

i prefer to imbibe mine anyway

[royalfan5]

Unless you kill the mandates you aren't going to kill ethanol. Even without the tax credit, it's still profitable to blend to 10%.

[yermom]

then why am i paying for it?

[royalfan5]

then why am i paying for it?

Do I look like a ****ing member of the Government?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I have no problem with ethanol per se, I have a great deal of problem using a food stuff to make ehtanol.

[SoCaliSooner]

Iowa will revolt.

[royalfan5]

I have no problem with ethanol per se, I have a great deal of problem using a food stuff to make ehtanol.

Considering that most of the corn that gets turned into ethanol still gets used as livestock feed, just as it would otherwise, I find that argument to be overblown.

[Mongo]

Considering that most of the corn that gets turned into ethanol still gets used as livestock feed, just as it would otherwise, I find that argument to be overblown.

like you know anything about corn......wait..

[okie52]

I have a problem with ethanol being mandatorily produced and included in our fuel supply.

[oudanny]

If ethanol is economically viable on its own then it won't disappear just because we don't subsidize it.

[OutlandTrophy]

If ethanol is economically viable on its own then it won't disappear just because we don't subsidize it.

and we don't mandate that it be placed into our fuel supply. then we can tell if it's economically viable.

[texaspokieokie]

i hope it's gone.

[royalfan5]

i hope it's gone.

It's not going to completely away because there is no substitute oxgenating agent since MTBE was banned.

[sappstuf]

It was actually a nice bipartisan vote with 33 Repubs and 38 Dems voting yes.

Royal fan is correct that the mandate remains for something like 36 billion gallons annually of ethanol. So I guess that means since there is a guaranteed buyer, farmers will continue to do it.

I wonder how many gallons would be produced if the mandate was lowered to 10 billion....

[pphilfran]

It's not going to completely away because there is no substitute oxgenating agent since MTBE was banned.

MTBE was some good stuff....

[okie52]

It was actually a nice bipartisan vote with 33 Repubs and 38 Dems voting yes.

Royal fan is correct that the mandate remains for something like 36 billion gallons annually of ethanol. So I guess that means since there is a guaranteed buyer, farmers will continue to do it.

I wonder how many gallons would be produced if the mandate was lowered to 10 billion....

10,000,000,000

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Yeah, just has a great affinity for water...

[royalfan5]

It was actually a nice bipartisan vote with 33 Repubs and 38 Dems voting yes.

Royal fan is correct that the mandate remains for something like 36 billion gallons annually of ethanol. So I guess that means since there is a guaranteed buyer, farmers will continue to do it.

I wonder how many gallons would be produced if the mandate was lowered to 10 billion....

Farmers are going to grow a lot of corn, ethanol or no ethanol. It's the most productive use of the high grade soil in the Midwest.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Considering that most of the corn that gets turned into ethanol still gets used as livestock feed, just as it would otherwise, I find that argument to be overblown.

So are you saying that the corn diverted to ethanol did not cause feed prices to rise? Just wondering if what you are saying is that the mandate had no effect of food/feed prices?

[GKeeper316]

If ethanol is economically viable on its own then it won't disappear just because we don't subsidize it.

on the one hand i agree with the sentiment, but a lot of the time it takes government subsidies to fund new technology until such time as that technology becomes self sustaining.

in this situation, i'd like to believe that sens. coburn and feinstein gathered as much testimony from as many experts as they could reasonably talk to before authoring the bill to end the subsidies.

[royalfan5]

So are you saying that the corn diverted to ethanol did not cause feed prices to rise? Just wondering if what you are saying is that the mandate had no effect of food/feed prices?

There is some effect, but not as huge as some people would like you to belive. Russia having a terrible crop last year in the face of rising Chinese demand for feed grains is a much, much bigger factor.

[sappstuf]

10,000,000,000

I"m going to go all Price is Right on you and say 10,000,000,001.

[pphilfran]

on the one hand i agree with the sentiment, but a lot of the time it takes government subsidies to fund new technology until such time as that technology becomes self sustaining.

in this situation, i'd like to believe that sens. coburn and feinstein gathered as much testimony from as many experts as they could reasonably talk to before authoring the bill to end the subsidies.

There are three distinct problems with ethanol...

1. It is expensive...and will always be if you use corn as the fuel stock...corn to sugar to ethanol...the use of sugarcane in Brazil eliminates one processing step...

2. There are conflicting reports on how much oil it actually saves...

3. It is not as clean as once believed...

[royalfan5]

There are three distinct problems with ethanol...

1. It is expensive...and will always be if you use corn as the fuel stock...corn to sugar to ethanol...the use of sugarcane in Brazil eliminates one processing step...

2. There are conflicting reports on how much oil it actually saves...

3. It is not as clean as once believed...

There has been a 8-10 month stretch recently where corn ethanol is cheaper than sugar ethanol due to rising Sugar demand. Brazil has been a major buyer of US corn ethanol to fill export contracts.

[pphilfran]

There has been a 8-10 month stretch recently where corn ethanol is cheaper than sugar ethanol due to rising Sugar demand. Brazil has been a major buyer of US corn ethanol to fill export contracts.

Well, dats what ya get when you use food for fuel...:)

[badger]

Good on Coburn for leading a bipartisan effort in something. About d@mn time there's a bipartisan anything going on at the federal level.

And let this be a message to Iowa State should they try to make OU their signature win this football season --- we can take away your ethanol subsidies. You even THINK of embarrassing us on national television and your John Deere subsides will be the next to go! :P

[Pogue Mahone]

Don't confuse solid Senate support for an amendment with a law/policy change. In its current form, this has little chance to become law.

The related Thune-Klobuchar amendment might have a better chance.

[pphilfran]

There has been a 8-10 month stretch recently where corn ethanol is cheaper than sugar ethanol due to rising Sugar demand. Brazil has been a major buyer of US corn ethanol to fill export contracts.

One other thing...nice to know we subsidize corn produced ethanol so that Brazil can have cheaper fuel...

What the hell, we already gave em a loan so they can open new offshore drilling areas...

[MR2-Sooner86]

Good, hate how this crap is being pushed yet it's ruining engines.

[sappstuf]

One other thing...nice to know we subsidize corn produced ethanol so that Brazil can have cheaper fuel...

What the hell, we already gave em a loan so they can open new offshore drilling areas...

You would think they could at least send up their women's beach volleyball team or something....

[pphilfran]

You would think they could at least send up their women's beach volleyball team or something....

:D

[okie52]

I"m going to go all Price is Right on you and say 10,000,000,001.

:D

[royalfan5]

One other thing...nice to know we subsidize corn produced ethanol so that Brazil can have cheaper fuel...

What the hell, we already gave em a loan so they can open new offshore drilling areas...

Considering that it was a temporary market inversion, I wouldn't work up to much rage about it.

[okie52]

One other thing...nice to know we subsidize corn produced ethanol so that Brazil can have cheaper fuel...

What the hell, we already gave em a loan so they can open new offshore drilling areas...

Yeah, Brazil was being lauded for its ethanol program that made is somewhat self sufficient...until they discovered oil off their coast and
are moving rapidly to exploit that resource.

[pphilfran]

Considering that it was a temporary market inversion, I wouldn't work up to much rage about it.

I have little rage...

I do know that ethanol was not studied enough before mandating it's volume of use...

[royalfan5]

I have little rage...

I do know that ethanol was not studied enough before mandating it's volume of use...

It was studied plenty. Just because you don't like the conclusions, doesn't mean it wasn't studied.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Good, hate how this crap is being pushed yet it's ruining engines.

Wait until they push 15% ethanol blends as the FEDGOV has mandated...

Oh, and if your car or engine has been converted to run on ethanol, that's fine. However, I don't know if any engine in the U.S. has been converted to run on ethanol. Brazil is far advanced on this, now they sit on some of the largest oil deposits ever found. Wonder if they will change???

[Breadburner]

Switch grass folks...Switch grass.....

[OUDoc]

I don't understand the point of it. It lowered prices of gasoline just enough to offset it's lower effect on MPG. It seemed like a wash to me.

[87sooner]

Good, hate how this crap is being pushed yet it's ruining engines.

how is it ruining engines?
go ahead and cite your proof if you don't mind...

[royalfan5]

Good, hate how this crap is being pushed yet it's ruining engines.

I've run damn near a 250K on ethanol blends with nary an issue. Ethanol has been used heavily in corn belt states since the 80's with any real widespread engine issues in automotive applications.

[87sooner]

all this thread lacks is a monsanto conspirist...

[Tulsa_Fireman]

ARCHER DANIELS MIDLAND OWNS J00

[tommieharris91]

all this thread lacks is a monsanto conspirist...

Nah. It needs either George Soros or David Koch being compared to Hitler.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

BUT KOCK IS A NAZI.

[royalfan5]

BUT KOCK IS A NAZI.

Koch owns ethanol plants too.

[olevetonahill]

Koch owns ethanol plants too.

I used to own an ethanol plant :(

[GKeeper316]

I used to own an ethanol plant :(

a still is not an ethanol plant, vet.

[olevetonahill]

a still is not an ethanol plant, vet.

Makes ethanol dont it? :P

[Tulsa_Fireman]

And I bet you ain't seen subsidy one, have ya?

Coburn hates the independent ethanol producer (AKA moonshiner)!

[olevetonahill]

And I bet you ain't seen subsidy one, have ya?

Coburn hates the independent ethanol producer (AKA moonshiner)!

hell no, pisses me off to.;)

[OutlandTrophy]

I thought you could legally brew/cook a certain amount of wine, beer and whiskey for personal use in Oklahoma. No?

[olevetonahill]

I thought you could legally brew/cook a certain amount of wine, beer and whiskey for personal use in Oklahoma. No?

Up until Last spring Wine was the only thing legal Then they said Ok to beer.
No whiskey :mad:

[OutlandTrophy]

what if it's rilly rilly rilly strong beer or wine? ;)

[olevetonahill]

I tried tellin em I were jes makin brandy :D
Dint werk :O

[MR2-Sooner86]

how is it ruining engines?
go ahead and cite your proof if you don't mind...

End the Ethanol Insanity (http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/dec2010/bw20101221_927461.htm)

Is ethanol harmful to boat motors? (http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/inside-outside/2009/may/14/is-ethanol-harmful-to-boat-motors/)

Ethanol Impact on Boat Engines (http://www.boattrader.com/research/news-tips/green-boating/ethanol-impact-on-boat-engines/)

More Bad News For Ethanol - Lawsuit Seeks Class Action Status For Damages Caused by Ethanol Blended Gasoline (http://www.calt.iastate.edu/ethanol.html)

In Gas-Powered World, Ethanol Stirs Complaints (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/business/26ethanol.html)

The great ethanol debate
(http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/ethanol/overview/index.htm)

[OutlandTrophy]

I tried tellin em I were jes makin brandy :D
Dint werk :O

:( I never got any of your er uh brandy

[Whet]

ADM does not grow switchgrass!

Next step is to eliminate the sugar price supports!!!

[GKeeper316]

Makes ethanol dont it? :P

i guess... both'll make ya blind if ya drink it, right?

[olevetonahill]

i guess... both'll make ya blind if ya drink it, right?

If ya drank their shat Yea. What i make er Made No:P

[soonercruiser]

Unless you kill the mandates you aren't going to kill ethanol. Even without the tax credit, it's still profitable to blend to 10%.

(althought I do not think that this statement is accurate...)
Exactly the reason to stop subsidies!
If it's good and profitable to do, someone will do it to make $$!

[soonercruiser]

I have little rage...

I do know that ethanol was not studied enough before mandating it's volume of use...

Probably some elitist professor said "it sounds like a good idea"!
:rolleyes:

[royalfan5]

(althought I do not think that this statement is accurate...)
Exactly the reason to stop subsidies!
If it's good and profitable to do, someone will do it to make $$!

Why don't you think it's accurate?

[soonercruiser]

how is it ruining engines?
go ahead and cite your proof if you don't mind...

I posted research articles a few months back.
(Mainly affecting engines made prior to 2000)

[soonercruiser]

I used to own an ethanol plant :(

Vet!
Suer that wasn't an elephant plant?
:D

[TheHumanAlphabet]

how is it ruining engines?
go ahead and cite your proof if you don't mind...

Basically, ethanol and methanol are very reactive and can do damage to motor parts if they are not of proper design. Rubber and plastic does not last. Basically to have an engine that will withstand the corrosive effects of ethanol, all hoses need to be stainless steel and other engine parts need to be "armored" for lack of better wording now.

I am not sure at which concentration level you will begin to notice problems, but if you have fuel injection, at 10% the fuel injectors get dirty and clogged. At 15%, I would expect some hose deterioration and lack of longevity.

[pphilfran]

It was studied plenty. Just because you don't like the conclusions, doesn't mean it wasn't studied.

If it was studied plenty then how much crude do we save due to ethanol....were initial studies on enviromental issues correct in their assumptions? What does Big Al think of ethanol today?

Speaking at a green energy business conference in Athens sponsored by Marfin Popular Bank, Gore said the lobbyists have wrongly kept alive the program he once touted.

"It is not a good policy to have these massive subsidies for first-generation ethanol," Reuters quoted Gore saying of the U.S. policy that is about to come up for congressional review. "First-generation ethanol I think was a mistake. The energy conversion ratios are at best very small.

"One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for president," the wire service reported Gore saying.

[87sooner]

End the Ethanol Insanity (http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/dec2010/bw20101221_927461.htm)

Is ethanol harmful to boat motors? (http://www.washingtontimes.com/weblogs/inside-outside/2009/may/14/is-ethanol-harmful-to-boat-motors/)

Ethanol Impact on Boat Engines (http://www.boattrader.com/research/news-tips/green-boating/ethanol-impact-on-boat-engines/)

More Bad News For Ethanol - Lawsuit Seeks Class Action Status For Damages Caused by Ethanol Blended Gasoline (http://www.calt.iastate.edu/ethanol.html)

In Gas-Powered World, Ethanol Stirs Complaints (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/business/26ethanol.html)

The great ethanol debate
(http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/news/ethanol/overview/index.htm)

that's some damn weak "proof"...

[pphilfran]

that's some damn weak "proof"...

10 or 15% blend has little, if any, impact on engine life...

[texaspokieokie]

that's some damn weak "proof"...

mileage drops, that's all i need to know.

[87sooner]

Basically, ethanol and methanol are very reactive and can do damage to motor parts if they are not of proper design. Rubber and plastic does not last. Basically to have an engine that will withstand the corrosive effects of ethanol, all hoses need to be stainless steel and other engine parts need to be "armored" for lack of better wording now.

I am not sure at which concentration level you will begin to notice problems, but if you have fuel injection, at 10% the fuel injectors get dirty and clogged. At 15%, I would expect some hose deterioration and lack of longevity.

they've been putting ethanol in gas for a long time and i've never heard of anyone having problems...
i've run 10% ethanol gas myself in various vehicles.....
no noticeable difference...
in fact i'm in florida right now and running ethanol in my suv...
was down here last year....checked my fuel economy....it was actually HIGHER on my return trip when running ethanol...

all gas down here in the southeast is a blend and has been for years....
cars aren't falling apart or dying early....
don't believe everything you hear from the wackos with agendas...

[captain_surly]

I've run damn near a 250K on ethanol blends with nary an issue. Ethanol has been used heavily in corn belt states since the 80's with any real widespread engine issues in automotive applications.

Perhaps not in modern automotive applications but it's hell on everything else like boat motors and any air cooled engine. Using blended fuel in those things increases maintenance costs and decreases reliability.

You're a fine upstanding young Husker but your bias is showing through in this thread. Corn based ethanol is a rip off for everyone except row crop farmers. You get screwed at the pump and again at the store. Sure you can use DDGs to feed dairy cows and to a lesser extent beef cattle and hogs but it doesn't work in chickens. Corn at $7 a bushel will eventually make meat protein very expensive.

Besides, God meant for alcohol made from corn to be ingested, not burned as fuel in engines.

With all that said this legislation is entirely symbolic. Obama has already said he'll veto any sudden end to the subsidy. It will be allowed to expire at the end of 2011.

[87sooner]

mileage drops, that's all i need to know.

i've run ethanol with no change and a small increase in mileage...
you?

[pphilfran]

mileage drops, that's all i need to know.

And it costs less...cost wise it is about a wash...

[MR2-Sooner86]

that's some damn weak "proof"...

Translation: I have no rebuttal.

[StoopTroup]

Will Corn Oil Lubricate my Engine better than Mobil One?

[pphilfran]

i've run ethanol with no change and a small increase in mileage...
you?

Your mileage changed...just too small to accurately calculate...

[Sooner5030]

folks.....ethyl alcohol is not that bad for engines......it can damage the fuel lines, carbs and other parts of the engine but not usually the block, pistons etc. Also, some of the corrosive effects come from the additives not the actual ethyl alcohol. Chemically it is no different than the ethyl alcohol you drink.....it's just 95% pure. Now methonal is very corrosive.

Also, ethyl alcohol naturally attracts water which can cause rust in your fuel system.

[StoopTroup]

Does Methonal keep you up at night?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Does your methanol lose it's flavor on the bedpost overnight?

[royalfan5]

Perhaps not in modern automotive applications but it's hell on everything else like boat motors and any air cooled engine. Using blended fuel in those things increases maintenance costs and decreases reliability.

You're a fine upstanding young Husker but your bias is showing through in this thread. Corn based ethanol is a rip off for everyone except row crop farmers. You get screwed at the pump and again at the store. Sure you can use DDGs to feed dairy cows and to a lesser extent beef cattle and hogs but it doesn't work in chickens. Corn at $7 a bushel will eventually make meat protein very expensive.

Besides, God meant for alcohol made from corn to be ingested, not burned as fuel in engines.

With all that said this legislation is entirely symbolic. Obama has already said he'll veto any sudden end to the subsidy. It will be allowed to expire at the end of 2011.

I trade the grain and livestock markets for a living. You don't think I understand the relationships between things? To scream about ethanol, while ignoring world wide and domestic weather issues, and increasing world demand is pretty short sited. The higher prices now are buying you cheap feed grain prices two years from now, especially with the potential for acreage growth in Brazil. Prices would still be high right now if ethanol only existed for beverages.

[pphilfran]

I trade the grain and livestock markets for a living. You don't think I understand the relationships between things? To scream about ethanol, while ignoring world wide and domestic weather issues, and increasing world demand is pretty short sited. The higher prices now are buying you cheap feed grain prices two years from now, especially with the potential for acreage growth in Brazil. Prices would still be high right now if ethanol only existed for beverages.

That acreage growth in Brazil has a lot of folks up in arms...loss of rain forest...that kind of chit....

[okie52]

I trade the grain and livestock markets for a living. You don't think I understand the relationships between things? To scream about ethanol, while ignoring world wide and domestic weather issues, and increasing world demand is pretty short sited. The higher prices now are buying you cheap feed grain prices two years from now, especially with the potential for acreage growth in Brazil. Prices would still be high right now if ethanol only existed for beverages.

You seem to believe that ethanol is a clean fuel....is that the case?

[okie52]

That acreage growth in Brazil has a lot of folks up in arms...loss of rain forest...that kind of chit....

Which defeats the purpose of sugar ethanol in Brazil.

[royalfan5]

That acreage growth in Brazil has a lot of folks up in arms...loss of rain forest...that kind of chit....

The rain forest loss is mostly due to cattle, not row crops. They have plenty of grassland that is just waiting to be converted in to production.

[Mjcpr]

But then where will we get our grass?

[royalfan5]

You seem to believe that ethanol is a clean fuel....is that the case?

Don't particularly give a **** if it is or not. I just have to trade under the rules that come down for above. I do know I have not experienced any automotive issues from it's use, and that the land use calculations I worked on for USDA indicate that is a net energy positive when raised in the corn belt, and the average plant conversion rate has increased since then.

[royalfan5]

But then where will we get our grass?

From the guy in the alley, or the friend of a friend who is in a band?

[pphilfran]

The rain forest loss is mostly due to cattle, not row crops. They have plenty of grassland that is just waiting to be converted in to production.

I thought grassland was just as critical...so no forest is cut to add ethanol production...no human related food acreage is converted to ethanol production...

I question the accuracy of past studies and you defend the past studies to the death...

I question how much crude is actually saved...various studies show huge differences in benefit...

I question how much cleaner the air will be with ethanol...again, various studies show significant differences..and the newer the studies the less positive...

I question why we spend money on something with so much uncertainty while we talk about cutting funding in critical social areas...

Why are you so high on ethanol?

[soonercoop1]

I have no problem with ethanol per se, I have a great deal of problem using a food stuff to make ehtanol.

or being forced to purchase it...

[royalfan5]

I thought grassland was just as critical...so no forest is cut to add ethanol production...no human related food acreage is converted to ethanol production...

I question the accuracy of past studies and you defend the past studies to the death...

I question how much crude is actually saved...various studies show huge differences in benefit...

I question how much cleaner the air will be with ethanol...again, various studies show significant differences..and the newer the studies the less positive...

I question why we spend money on something with so much uncertainty while we talk about cutting funding in critical social areas...

Why are you so high on ethanol?
I'm not that high on it, I just don't think it is quite the evil some folks make it out to be. I'm just trying to point out that there are a lot more inputs in the grain market run than ethanol. Mostly, I like the basis push it gives me when selling cash corn.

[pphilfran]

I'm not that high on it, I just don't think it is quite the evil some folks make it out to be. I'm just trying to point out that there are a lot more inputs in the grain market run than ethanol. Mostly, I like the basis push it gives me when selling cash corn.

I appreciate you input...no one can make proper decisions on a subject without accurate info...

Are you saying it helps pad your pocketbook?

[royalfan5]

I appreciate you input...no one can make proper decisions on a subject without accurate info...

Are you saying it helps pad your pocketbook?

I don't get paid for the extra basis, but the farmers do and they pay me. However, if we killed ethanol, most my corn is along rail that feeds the PNW terminals or the gulf, so it probably wouldn't all that much in the longer term for me. At the end of the days the farmers like it, and my occupation requires me to like what the farmers like.

[pphilfran]

Yep....gotta keep the customer happy...

[okie52]

Don't particularly give a **** if it is or not. I just have to trade under the rules that come down for above. I do know I have not experienced any automotive issues from it's use, and that the land use calculations I worked on for USDA indicate that is a net energy positive when raised in the corn belt, and the average plant conversion rate has increased since then.

I believe the EPA stated that, all things considered, ethanol was dirtier than gasoline on a 30 year term. But I also thought you were using weather related cycles as a case for reducing CO2 and thereby embracing ethanol.

[okie52]

BTW-I drive a flex fuel Tahoe and my wife drives a flex fuel Escalade....we've never had any problems except she averages 12.5 miles per gallon and I'm around 15.5 (with a lot more highway miles).

[starclassic tama]

i'm not sure how bad ethanol is on engines, but i know it murders my gas mileage. i started noticing it about a month ago, and since i switched to 100% gas, my gas mileage has increased by about 33%

[pphilfran]

i'm not sure how bad ethanol is on engines, but i know it murders my gas mileage. i started noticing it about a month ago, and since i switched to 100% gas, my gas mileage has increased by about 33%

You have other problems other than ethanol...

[Sooner5030]

ethyl alcohol requires a richer mixture to burn than compared to gasoline. That's why you burn more (less MPG) but on the flip side you get more HP.

[texaspokieokie]

i'd really rather have the mpg.

[texaspokieokie]

ethyl alcohol requires a richer mixture to burn than compared to gasoline. That's why you burn more (less MPG) but on the flip side you get more HP.

just cause you're runnin richer doesn't mean you get more HP.

[Sooner5030]

just cause you're runnin richer doesn't mean you get more HP.

racing folks like it....but that's also because it burns cool enough that they can jettison the heavy water pump, radiator and reservoir.

[pphilfran]

racing folks like it....but that's also because it burns cool enough that they can jettison the heavy water pump, radiator and reservoir.

It runs cool so you can run a much higher compression ratio...and then pour in the ethanol...without the extra compression ratio you will not get more hp...

[Sooner5030]

It runs cool so you can run a much higher compression ratio...and then pour in the ethanol...without the extra compression ratio you will not get more hp...

wasn't sure the reason....but most racers from 50cc go-karts to drag cars claim going alcohol will get you more HP. Although, when I tried ot convert smaller engines it sometimes took machine shop level work to adjust the carb.

[Sooner5030]

also, not to over-defend ethyl alcohol (i've played DA to one of royal's post before) but you also have to consider the implicit cost of the time it takes to produce the raw materials that go into gasoline vs. alcohol. I can grow sweet potatoes or corn in one season and yield almost 250 gallons/acre/season.

How long would it take the organic material per acre to turn into crude oil?

[pphilfran]

also, not to over-defend ethyl alcohol (i've played DA to one of royal's post before) but you also have to consider the implicit cost of the time it takes to produce the raw materials that go into gasoline vs. alcohol. I can grow sweet potatoes or corn in one season and yield almost 250 gallons/acre/season.

How long would it take the organic material per acre to turn into crude oil?

Is it worth 6 billion a year in subsidy?

[Sooner5030]

no....but I'd like to produce it without a permit/inspection from the ATF and state agencies.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

don't believe everything you hear from the wackos with agendas...

No wackos with agendas.

In my industry, all methanol service is stainless steel. It is too reactive for any other service. Brazil had issues until they retrofitted cars. All cars there either run on 100% ethanol or gasoline. Known issues with ethanol in gasoline egine cars. The ethanol today is in there for oxygenation, in order to meet clean air standards. If you have a lawn mower, you likely know about the ethanol issues with frequent carberator jobs.

I have been adding Sea Foam to all my engines to keep the fuel rails clean and reduce the effects of ethanol.

[SoonerKnight]

Switch grass folks...Switch grass.....

There is a switch grass lobby? SHEESH!

[87sooner]

I trade the grain and livestock markets for a living. You don't think I understand the relationships between things? To scream about ethanol, while ignoring world wide and domestic weather issues, and increasing world demand is pretty short sited. The higher prices now are buying you cheap feed grain prices two years from now, especially with the potential for acreage growth in Brazil. Prices would still be high right now if ethanol only existed for beverages.

i think it was you who said last fall that grain would do well this spring....
how does the second half of this year look?
my acres are 100% milo this year....we're getting good rain...
wondering if i should price it now or wait...
corn took a beating the last week....but i would think that if there are any weather issues in the midwest ....the price is goin to da moon...

[87sooner]

Translation: I have no rebuttal.

there's nothing to rebut....
nothing but opinions from jed down at the small engine repair shop...

[sheepdogs]

The biggest problem that people "should" have regarding ethanol is it is an alternative to making the right choices related to fossil fuels. I don't know too many people who went on a diet which was successful and in the process increased their caloric intake for it seems like they would have been relegated to actually "reducing" the calories consumed and the same should apply to gasoline consumption as opposed to coming up with "full of mularkey" excuses as a credible response to the situation.

[StoopTroup]

All this talk about Bio-Fuels is giving me wood

[87sooner]

10% ethanol = what $ amount NOT sent to the middle east...but instead goes to american farmers/ethanol producers?

seems like a pretty good deal to me...

not that the taxpayer should be subsidizing it though....so i have no problem with cutting subsidies...
this country will have to cut alot of things if it wants to survive economically...

[StoopTroup]

I miss the days of pumping Ethyl. She made me feel like I had a Tiger in my tank.

[royalfan5]

i think it was you who said last fall that grain would do well this spring....
how does the second half of this year look?
my acres are 100% milo this year....we're getting good rain...
wondering if i should price it now or wait...
corn took a beating the last week....but i would think that if there are any weather issues in the midwest ....the price is goin to da moon...

I think there will be a solid rebound from this break, especially given the end user interest that is surfacing now. That being said, historically these are still fantastic prices. The next big thing is the Grain Stocks and Planted Acres Report on the 30th, that typically sets direction until harvest gets rolling.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I miss the days of pumping Ethyl. She made me feel like I had a Tiger in my tank.

I popped fifteen boners just by reading that.

[texaspokieokie]

leaded gasoline was much better. with it you could run much higher compression ratios. more torque,thus more HP. also,better mpg.

low comp engines in 70s & 80s were pitiful. now, higher ratios can be used, due to computers.

[pphilfran]

10% ethanol = what $ amount NOT sent to the middle east...but instead goes to american farmers/ethanol producers?

seems like a pretty good deal to me...

not that the taxpayer should be subsidizing it though....so i have no problem with cutting subsidies...
this country will have to cut alot of things if it wants to survive economically...

87...here is the problem with ethanol...to produce a $1 worth of ethanol it will take at least 50 cents of oil to produce the buck worth of ethanol...it may actually take significantly more than 50 cents...

Cost of fertilizer...cost to harvest corn...cost to truck corn to ethanol plant...cost of electricity and other resources to change to corn to a sugar base and the cost to change the sugar base to ethanol...then, since ethanol is corrosive and absorbs water you cannot use current pipelines to transport the product, you have to truck the ethanol to the wholesaler and retailer...

Then add in subsidies and we could easily be spending a $1.25 (or more) a gallon to produce a $1 worth of ethanol..

There are many studies available...each and every one of the studies shows a significantly different cost to produce a gallon...

When Big Al is now against ethanol we all should realize how poor a choice it has become...

Pulling the current subsidies and not changing the current mandates will do nothing...the producer will charge whatever they want since it is mandatory...and that will drive fuel costs up further...

It is a f'n mess that has not been studied properly...

[pphilfran]

leaded gasoline was much better. with it you could run much higher compression ratios. more torque,thus more HP. also,better mpg.

low comp engines in 70s & 80s were pitiful. now, higher ratios can be used, due to computers.

Lead did help octane rating but the primary reason it was used was to lubricate the valve seats...run lead free gas in a pre 60's cars without hardened valve seats and valve wear was completely unacceptable...

[texaspokieokie]

Lead did help octane rating but the primary reason it was used was to lubricate the valve seats...run lead free gas in a pre 60's cars without hardened valve seats and valve wear was completely unacceptable...

the MAIN reason was to make burning slower & more uniform, thus preventing
spark knock, detonation.

[pphilfran]

the MAIN reason was to make burning slower & more uniform, thus preventing
spark knock, detonation.

I say 50/50...valve seat wear was definitely a reason lead was used....

[texaspokieokie]

cars were around long before leaded gas, with low compression.

[pphilfran]

cars were around long before leaded gas, with low compression.

Yes, those early cars generated low hp and low revs...

I am not denying that lead helped reduce knock and allowed higher compression ratios...

I am just saying that once high rev/hp cars became the norm lead was mandatory to keep valve life at an acceptable level...

If you don't get too hard on the throttle and let the motor rev too high valve life would be extended even without the hardened seats..but if you weren't going to nail the thing then you wouldn't need the high compression...

Lead was removed because it damaged the cat converter...the cat converter was required to meet emission standards...to compensate for the loss of lead the manufacturers had to drop compression ration, thus reduced hp, and they added hardened valve seats to the heads so you could go 10,000 miles before you needed a valve job...

[texaspokieokie]

i don't think the valve problems were realized until the lead was removed.

remember, you could buy ethyl or regular. reg must've had much less or no lead.

[sappstuf]

IRsPheErBj8&

;)

[pphilfran]

i don't think the valve problems were realized until the lead was removed.

remember, you could buy ethyl or regular. reg must've had much less or no lead.

They all had lead...

I lived through that mess...in 1969-1972 I was driving a 1967 Mustang...289, headers, alum intake and 600 Holley...standard mods...I could run reg or reg unleaded in it since it was only about 9 compression ratio...

In the 80's I purchased and rebuilt 3 different pre 70 Stangs..two of which were hi po K Codes..each and every one needed a valve job...only the K Codes needed premium fuel...

For a period of time they sold both unleaded and leaded...if you had a car with a cat you had to run unleaded or risk cat failure...

They knew it was a problem so they allowed leaded for a period of time...

[pphilfran]

IRsPheErBj8&

;)

And I am not thinking cat...:D

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/033.jpg

[pphilfran]

One other nerdy thing...

To meet emission standards the manufactures had to jack up engine temps...I think they needed a very high exhaust gas temp so the reaction could occur more completely in the converter...

Without lead and higher engine temps a bad pre ignition could, and would, crop up.....so they dropped compression and retarded (not retarded like Sap, more like not as advanced) ignition timing...

Without the higher engine temps they could have ran a higher compression ratio...not up in the 11's but much higher than the 8's that were common...

[sappstuf]

One other nerdy thing...

To meet emission standards the manufactures had to jack up engine temps...I think they needed a very high exhaust gas temp so the reaction could occur more completely in the converter...

Without lead and higher engine temps a bad pre ignition could, and would, crop up.....so they dropped compression and retarded (not retarded like Sap, more like not as advanced) ignition timing...

Without the higher engine temps they could have ran a higher compression ratio...not up in the 11's but much higher than the 8's that were common...

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh319/contour66/hines-ward-crying.gif

[pphilfran]

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh319/contour66/hines-ward-crying.gif

:)

[texaspokieokie]

that's what happened when lead was removed, not the reason it was added in the 1st place.

my experience was with a 78 t-bird, 302 & low comp. you could still get leaded gas, but not like in the 60s.

picture the temp gage as tho it were fuel gage. on the (not very) leaded gas,
the eng temp would run on what would be 1/4 full. on unleaded gas, the gage needle would be verticla, as tho you had 1/2 tank. much hotter. plus, any time you acclerated, instant clatter. i ran leaded as much as possible.

now, with computers, at least 2 of our car have comp ratio over 10 to 1.

strange thing, on that 78 t-bird, it came with cat on each side, but single exhaust. also, the cats were bolted together, so you didn't have to remove them, just take out the guts. i hade dual glas-packs installed, mostly for
the sound.

actually removed cats from a chev pick-up & a v-8 jeep.

never had any hi-comp engines during the 70s. only other new car was a 73 chev rag-top with small block 400. didn't have cat. so always (if available)
ran leaded gas.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Go diesel.

http://autoya.info/img/content/1224/BMW_735d_engine_diesel.jpg

[TheHumanAlphabet]

The biggest problem that people "should" have regarding ethanol is it is an alternative to making the right choices related to fossil fuels. I don't know too many people who went on a diet which was successful and in the process increased their caloric intake for it seems like they would have been relegated to actually "reducing" the calories consumed and the same should apply to gasoline consumption as opposed to coming up with "full of mularkey" excuses as a credible response to the situation.

What "right" choices on fossil fuels. I'll take my gas and propane and natural gas, thank you very much.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Go diesel.

http://autoya.info/img/content/1224/BMW_735d_engine_diesel.jpg

I think my next BMW will have this type of engine...

[captain_surly]

I trade the grain and livestock markets for a living. You don't think I understand the relationships between things? To scream about ethanol, while ignoring world wide and domestic weather issues, and increasing world demand is pretty short sited. The higher prices now are buying you cheap feed grain prices two years from now, especially with the potential for acreage growth in Brazil. Prices would still be high right now if ethanol only existed for beverages.

I understand that you have an agenda, that's what said when I quoted you. I'm not screaming about anything, just pointing out that it's stupid to subsidize corn based ethanol. If you have a legitimate argument about that I'd be interested to hear it.

You're the one who seems to be screaming here.

[sheepdogs]

What "right" choices on fossil fuels. I'll take my gas and propane and natural gas, thank you very much.

You kid too much.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

You kid too much.

Not kidding. Nothing around to replace it and will stick with it until another is proven better. None have been to date.

[royalfan5]

I understand that you have an agenda, that's what said when I quoted you. I'm not screaming about anything, just pointing out that it's stupid to subsidize corn based ethanol. If you have a legitimate argument about that I'd be interested to hear it.

You're the one who seems to be screaming here.

Is any stupider than the other **** we subsidize?

[texaspokieokie]

Go diesel.

http://autoya.info/img/content/1224/BMW_735d_engine_diesel.jpg

the best way !!!