this story saddens me

[jk the sooner fan]

i really dont think this is what the framers had in mind when they put separation of church and state in the bill of rights

i'm sure the anti-religious types will applaud it - but it makes me sad

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/02/prayer-prohibited-at-graduation-ceremony/?test=latestnews

[yermom]

“This is a high school graduation,” he told Fox News Radio. “It is not a church service.”



don't you get enough praying at church? maybe Achmed should lead everyone to kneel toward Mecca as well.

[Soonerfan88]

The framers never said "separation of church and state" in the Constitution. The Supreme Court cited the phrase as written by Jefferson in 1802 - "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." Again, it means that the government should not infringe on anyone's religious practices or establish/favor an official religion. It doesn't mean that those within government can't be religious.

First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


As for this article, don't have an issue saying they can't have a prayer at graduation. That is what Baccalaureate (voluntary) is for. However, the judge crossed the line by saying a student speaker could not include any religious words when addressing the audience.

[yermom]

to me, it's more like

"well, i have you here, now you get to listen to me talk about Jesus"

[tcrb]

I guess I'm struggling with trying to identify what kind of "irreparable harm" the Shultz family would suffer if anyone prayed at the ceremony. :confused:

[OhU1]

Sounds like the judge may be going too far if he is restricting what a student can say. Banning an official school sanctioned prayer is another matter as that is government sponsored endorsement of religion.

Individuals absolutely have a right to free religious expression and speech (but not necessarily when they are acting in a public capacity role; i.e. the School Superintendent).

[yermom]

I guess I'm struggling with trying to identify what kind of "irreparable harm" the Shultz family would suffer if anyone prayed at the ceremony. :confused:

i'd rather not have my secular, once in a lifetime rite of passage marred by some vulgar display of unconstitutionality

[yermom]

Sounds like the judge may be going too far if he is restricting what a student can say. Banning an official school sanctioned prayer is another matter as that is government sponsored endorsement of religion.

Individuals absolutely have a right to free religious expression and speech (but not necessarily when they are acting in a public capacity role; i.e. the School Superintendent).

i'm sure they can talk about God, or their faith or whatever , but leading a prayer in that role is basically the same as the school sponsoring it, and if they could just get around rules by having a student do it, i'm sure they would

[TheLadiesMike]

Anti-religious people are so fragile.

[tcrb]

i'd rather not have my secular, once in a lifetime rite of passage marred by some vulgar display of unconstitutionality

Whatever the **** that means....still cant see the irreparable" part.

[OhU1]

I guess I'm struggling with trying to identify what kind of "irreparable harm" the Shultz family would suffer if anyone prayed at the ceremony. :confused:

Boredom from hearing a prayer?

I'm no fan of public prayer but I'd have to agree. Get over it. No one has the right to not be offended.

If it's the school orchestrating a prayer then it's worth fighting the abuse by government on principle. And if you're a Christian and you say "what's the harm?" Would you feel the same way if you lived in Utah and have to participate in Mormon prayers? Detroit and have to do Islamic rituals? Keep the government out of the prayer and faith business.

[Blue]

But make sure the school lets everyone know its "Homo Month" and make sure and get those kindy gartners some rubbers.

Meh. Liberals F'in suck.

[Blue]

and the judge is threatening jail to anyone who mentions religion in their speech. What a country! Freedom of speech!

I'd read the freakin Bill of Rights and close with a prayer. Then go get processed for my misdemeanor. Some things are worth standing up for. Hopefully somebody there will.

[delhalew]

The framers never said "separation of church and state" in the Constitution. The Supreme Court cited the phrase as written by Jefferson in 1802 - "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." Again, it means that the government should not infringe on anyone's religious practices or establish/favor an official religion. It doesn't mean that those within government can't be religious.

First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


As for this article, don't have an issue saying they can't have a prayer at graduation. That is what Baccalaureate (voluntary) is for. However, the judge crossed the line by saying a student speaker could not include any religious words when addressing the audience.


Maybe some of you need to read this again.

The Supreme Court took a big dump on the First Amendment. "Congress shall make no law", so the Court did. Not the way it's supposed to work.

[yermom]

there is nothing restricting the practice of religion. is it a requirement of your faith to force it on others in a public setting?

[Blue]

there is nothing restricting the practice of religion. is it a requirement of your faith to force it on others in a public setting?

I studied my arse off, made the grades, I can say whatever I want. Otherwise nobody speaks.

maybe I don't wan't to hear some atheist give a speech about his faith in himself or his faith in global warming and mother earth. Maybe I think thats crap. But it doesn't offend me enough to say you can't do it.

[GKeeper316]

when i was a graduating senior, i was a practicing catholic. 1 of only 2 in my small high school.

my entire graduation week was dominated by baptists. i tried to complain about how i was being forced to listen to religious speech i neither agreed with or even identified with on some basic level.

i was told to shut up or not get my diploma.

hooray for my rights.

[Fraggle145]

i'm sure they can talk about God, or their faith or whatever , but leading a prayer in that role is basically the same as the school sponsoring it, and if they could just get around rules by having a student do it, i'm sure they would

They did this for years at Owasso after they made it so you couldnt have a prayer. Hell they may still be doing it.

[delhalew]

there is nothing restricting the practice of religion. is it a requirement of your faith to force it on others in a public setting?

The whole point is the restriction of peoples religion. As for your question, you're asking the wrong guy. The only thing I have faith in, is that people will always want more control over the actions of others than they should be allowed.

[MR2-Sooner86]

lWBG8byqqUI

[Fraggle145]

I studied my arse off, made the grades, I can say whatever I want. Otherwise nobody speaks.

I think this might be the best solution. Since when do 18 year olds know a damn thing about pretty much anything?

[SoonerBorn68]

i'd rather not have my secular, once in a lifetime rite of passage marred by some vulgar display of unconstitutionality

You prolly had your earbuds in listening to your ipod.

[King Barry's Back]

I guess I'm struggling with trying to identify what kind of "irreparable harm" the Shultz family would suffer if anyone prayed at the ceremony. :confused:


Some people like prayer in school, others don't. That's fine.

But a fundamental shift in the meaning of the "separation of church and state" has developed over the past few decades, and it stands in stark contrast to language in the Constitution.

The 1st Amendment bars an "official religion." That means no "Church of America," like the Church of England, receiving taxpayer funds and preaching a govt approved message.

Somewhere along the line, though, this provision has "evolved" to mean that the government has a duty to protect anyone from hearing/seeing evidence about any other religion, based on the grounds that other religions would "offend" or "exclude" them. (This offense or exclusion is the damage done to the complainants. They must feel damaged, or why did file the case?)

I understand that many Americans feel that a graduation for a public high school is no place for praying. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with government officials making official prayers.

But to threaten to incarcerate school officials because of the words spoken by students is an absolute outrage. So if the valedictorian, during his/her address, says "I thank God that I am here today, and pray that this success will continue," does that mean the school has to have security on hand to stop the speech and remove the individual? I can't see any other meaning in the ruling.

If they don't haul the kid away, they go to jail themselves? Is this really America? Is this the America we want to live in?

[Romulus]

Appointed By:
President William Clinton

[King Barry's Back]

Boredom from hearing a prayer?

I'm no fan of public prayer but I'd have to agree. Get over it. No one has the right to not be offended.

But I think that's where you're wrong. I think the 1st Amendment has evolved to include specifically a "right to not be offended.' At least that is how I understand some of these "religion in school" cases.

I have heard, based on news coverage only, a number of cases in various states where the judge banned a Christmas play or a ceremonial prayer, etc; based on the claim that some students/parents/citizens would be "offended."

Govt does plenty of offensive things. But praying for football players to avoid injury is so "offensive' that the Constitution bans it? Or thanking God that you and you classmates made it to graduation is so monstrously exclusive that stormtroopers have to be called in to break up the ceremony?

I just don't buy that.

[yermom]

You prolly had your earbuds in listening to your ipod.

i had about 7 years to wait for them to be invented

[yermom]

and the judge is threatening jail to anyone who mentions religion in their speech. What a country! Freedom of speech!

I'd read the freakin Bill of Rights and close with a prayer. Then go get processed for my misdemeanor. Some things are worth standing up for. Hopefully somebody there will.


Judge Biery’s ruling banned students and other speakers from using religious language in their speeches. Among the banned words or phrases are: “join in prayer,” “bow their heads,” “amen,” and “prayer.”
He also ordered the school district to remove the terms “invocation” and “benediction” from the graduation program.
“These terms shall be replaced with ‘opening remarks’ and ‘closing remarks,'” the judge’s order stated. His ruling also prohibits anyone from saying, “in [a deity’s name] we pray.”


they can talk about their faith, they just can't lead a prayer

[Pricetag]

IMO, just about anything a high school kid has to say at a graduation is to draw attention to his or herself, and that includes praying.

[GKeeper316]

Appointed By:
President William Clinton

looking at what president appointed what judge is ridiculous.

anyone who even gets close to a federal bench seat is going to know the law and do very little in the way of politicizing a ruling.

[olevetonahill]

People who get their panties in a wad over a kid sayin a ONE minute prayer are pathetic IMHO
And yes I dont care if they pray to The christian god, Allah or hell even satan give it a rest.

[MR2-Sooner86]

I'm assuming everybody watched the video I posted to help clear everything up before I post my response. If not, watch and learn.

I looked through several of the comments of that story and couldn't help but laugh. Most people really don't know what the first amendment means.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

The first part simply states the government cannot favor or pick one religion over another. A private Christian school can do all the prayer they want but a public school funded by taxpayers and run by the state does not have that same right.

How would you folks feel if school officials had a moment to pray to Allah? Xenu? Joseph Smith? What if Native American students were allowed to light up some peyote? Don't like it so much now do you? A state run school has no right to pick and choose what religious exercises they will follow. If you're going to do one, might as well do all of them.

Now there's a second part to this.

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Is this limiting a student's speech? It depends. As far as I know and can remember from people I've talked to, school officials have made every single student who will speak at graduation hand in a copy of their speech. It then gets approved or denied to be resubmitted. If a student doesn't go by what they submitted, they won't get their diploma.

People are offended this student can't talk about their religion. If we turn this on it's head, what if a student talked about their homosexuality? How many Christians would be upset saying, "That's not appropriate for a high school graduation speech" and would be offended? I'm guessing there would be a big number of them.

With that said I think the students should be able to say whatever they want, however the school also has the right to stop then whenever they want. If a student wants to go up and say, "I hate all you god damn gooks for filling up the honors classes I tried to get into" they have that right. The school also has the right to go up there and yank him away.

As for a student leading in prayer, again, how would you feel if a student said, "Lets us all now face Mecca and give thanks to almighty Allah and give thanks" when it was his turn to speak?

I have no problem with the student's freedom of speech as I don't think the court could really go after that. The school on the other hand doesn't have that right.

[olevetonahill]

See my response. :P

[2121Sooner]

People who get their panties in a wad over a kid sayin a ONE minute prayer are pathetic IMHO
And yes I dont care if they pray to The christian god, Allah or hell even satan give it a rest.

There's no athiests in a fox hole.......




And I didnt click on the link about Jefferson but I dont believe anywhere in the constitution does it say "seperation between church and state" it is about freedom from religious persecution.

Whatever......as long as there are tests there will always be prayer in school

[MsProudSooner2]

So I guess if the Valedictorian were a Satanist, ya'll would be OK with a prayer to the devil at graduation?

[2121Sooner]

As long as he came to the podium with a little Motley Crue......


Shout.....Shout.....Shout.........SHOUT AT THE DEVIL!!!!!


Friggin OWN IT!!!

[olevetonahill]

So I guess if the Valedictorian were a Satanist, ya'll would be OK with a prayer to the devil at graduation?

If we are gonna say "Freedom of Speech" Then like I said I dont care if they say a 1 minute ****ing prayer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

http://s3-2.kiva.org/img/w800/196261.jpg

[Soonerfan88]

Burning the flag deeply offends me but I oppose a law banning it. It is the student's ceremony and if the graduate chosen to speak wants to speak in praise to any religion or promote their political cause, more power to them. I retain the freedom to ignore them or even get up and leave.

King is correct, too many folks have cried about being offended and the courts have stupidly decided to accommodate them. Tough ****, nothing in the Constitution says you are protected from being offended in life. And most of it really isn't offensive, it's just doesn't agree with your views on the subject.

[olevetonahill]

Burning the flag deeply offends me but I oppose a law banning it. It is the student's ceremony and if the graduate chosen to speak wants to speak in praise to any religion or promote their political cause, more power to them. I retain the freedom to ignore them or even get up and leave.

King is correct, too many folks have cried about being offended and the courts have stupidly decided to accommodate them. Tough ****, nothing in the Constitution says you are protected from being offended in life. And most of it really isn't offensive, it's just doesn't agree with your views on the subject.

Winnah.

[jk the sooner fan]

somehow i knew i'd come back and find all that inner rage yermom has towards Christianity and religion

you really should see a counselor to help you get past all that repressed pain

[yermom]

would you defend a Muslim's "free speech" to lead a prayer at a school?

[OhU1]

There's no athiests in a fox hole.......

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Corporal_Patrick_Tillman.jpg/190px-Corporal_Patrick_Tillman.jpg

[BU BEAR]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Corporal_Patrick_Tillman.jpg/190px-Corporal_Patrick_Tillman.jpg

He was not in a foxhole. He was on a mountain.

[olevetonahill]

If we are gonna say "Freedom of Speech" Then like I said I dont care if they say a 1 minute ****ing prayer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

http://s3-2.kiva.org/img/w800/196261.jpg


would you defend a Muslim's "free speech" to lead a prayer at a school?

Done said I would, If the Kid got the grades to be able to stand up there in the 1st place then he /she should be able to say a short prayer to whatever entity they belive in.

[yermom]

somehow i knew i'd come back and find all that inner rage yermom has towards Christianity and religion

you really should see a counselor to help you get past all that repressed pain

if you can't sit through a whole graduation or football game or whatever without saying or hearing a prayer, maybe you need counseling

[Ike]

In all honesty, I don't get the irreparable harm bit. BFD, it's a friggin graduation. Let em pray, and lean back and play Angry Birds on your phone while they do. Or watch some funny cat videos. In all honesty, it'd be NICE to be able to go to a graduation or other ceremony without having to sit through a prayer, but as I'm still in OK, I know that that will never happen. Sporting events, I can handle...but only if the prayers begin the way we began them on one team I played for: "Let's rip their heads off and **** down their necks! Let us pray" (that was at a religious school too)

[Pricetag]

You played for the Texas State Fighting Armadillos?

[Ike]

You played for the Texas State Fighting Armadillos?

Was that from a movie? I always figured it was, but didn't care enough to find out which one. :)

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Oh Great One, the Source of Existence, Yahweh, Brahman, Great Mother, Father, Creator God, Allah, High Goddess, Tao, the Divine, Great Spirit,

We gather to make decisions for our community. May we use only our best skills and judgment keeping ourselves impartial and neutral as we consider the merits and pitfalls of each matter that is placed before us and always act in accordance with what is best for our community and our fellow citizens.

May jk find joy again in life.

Amen.

[Blue]

Oh Great One, the Source of Existence, Yahweh, Brahman, Great Mother, Father, Creator God, Allah, High Goddess, Tao, the Divine, Great Spirit,

We gather to make decisions for our community. May we use only our best skills and judgment keeping ourselves impartial and neutral as we consider the merits and pitfalls of each matter that is placed before us and always act in accordance with what is best for our community and our fellow citizens.

May jk find joy again in life.

Amen.

"Impartial and neutral". The liberal mantra. LMAO.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

"Impartial and neutral". The liberal mantra. LMAO.

If I were a school principal would you object to me reading this over the intercom each day?

[Blue]

If I were a school principal would you object to me reading this over the intercom each day?

Yes, but I wouldn't sue the schoolboard. I have the choice to homeschool. Of course Uncle sam likes to crack down on that too. They won't be happy until they have a generation of automatons regurgitating liberal talking points. A bunch of zombies. We're almost there.

Btw, we're talking about a valedictorian or salutatorians personal speech here. No mention of the Christian God is allowed. New age self and earth worship? Thats cool.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I am just saying I am not a hard core Christian or anything but if someone told me what I could and couldn't say in a speech in which I worked 4 hard year to earn, my *** would drop a God-Bomb. I would go into a 20 minute bible study course...and at the end I would say I hope I haven't caused anyone irreparable harm. I would do the same thing if they banned Allah, Yahweh, or Tom Cruise too....

[yermom]

Yes, but I wouldn't sue the schoolboard. I have the choice to homeschool. Of course Uncle sam likes to crack down on that too. They won't be happy until they have a generation of automatons regurgitating liberal talking points. A bunch of zombies. We're almost there.

Btw, we're talking about a valedictorian or salutatorians personal speech here. No mention of the Christian God is allowed. New age self and earth worship? Thats cool.

You can't talk about faith without praying?

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

I can't **** without praying...

[jk the sooner fan]

"Impartial and neutral". The liberal mantra. LMAO.

dont forget "tolerance"!

[KantoSooner]

I don't get the irreparable harm bit. But I don't get jk's sadness, either. It's a big 'no issue' to me.
If you don't believe in a god, then do what I do and omit his name from the pledge (it was only added in the 1950's as I recall; during yet another outbreak of religious hysteria in our nation's history) "...one nation...indivisible..." See? It works just fine.
And, during prayers, I bob my head like everyone else and go over my schedule for the day.
Nobody gets upset, I don't have to make a big deal out of my beliefs and we all get to lunch that much faster.
Save your ammo for real issues.

[sanantoniosooner]

It's not about rights.

It's about a new breed of attention whore.

[jk the sooner fan]

maybe i should have explained my "sadness".......i think some of you translated that to mean i was suicidal or something, or at least losing sleep

far from it - i think what bothers me the most is the hardline that the judge has taken - going so far as to threaten jail time for what i believe is an exercise in freedom of speech

i'm ok with the school being told that they aren't allowed to sanction/sponsor a prayer - but to tell a student what they can/can't say during their own personal valedictorian speech - in my opinion, is an infringement on a fundamental right to free speech

it also saddens me that one person's rights outweigh the rights of the group....there are times when individual rights trample all over societal/group rights and I dont believe it to be a good/positive thing

as for saving my ammo for real issues - what may be a "real issue" for you, isnt necessarily a "real issue" for me - and vice versa

[KantoSooner]

Well, JK, since your reply seems directed to some degree at me, let me address two points:

1. individual rights vs. rights of the collective.
You've hit the nail on the head here. Everything from the Federalist Papers to debate over the Bill of Rights to a large percentage of Supreme Court cases for the last 200 plus years revolve around this issue.
Basically, we decided to err on the side of the individual. It separates the USofA from Europe, makes our revolutioin by far and away the most radical in human history and also generates rightwing moonbats, the Westboro baptist church, Wesley Snipes tax cheatin' and other social ills.
It's a mixed bag, but, so far, a superior mixed bag to what any other society on earth has ever come up with.

2. 'Sadness' and 'Realness'
I didn't think you were suicidal. I just don't see this as anything more than a momentary legal bun fight. It'll be challenged and overturned next year or the year after. Is that stupid in terms of procedural delay, expense and squandering of judicial assets? Yes to all the above. But that's the way the Anglo-American system of justice has evolved. Personally, I'd prefer something closer to the French system on constitutional questions, they allow much more 'legislative intent' type evidence to be entered. But, again, that's life and our system will correct.
Soon we'll be able to hear class presidents and valedictorians making like Billy Graham all they want at commencement.
I only hope I'll be allowed, as I am at my daughter's Catholic school, to get slightly blind with the priests before the ceremony.

[OU_Sooners75]

So if you are against someone saying a prayer in school or at a public function, what do you think about the Judicial system or the investigative process by congress?

"Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?"

SCOTUS screwed the pooch on this one, didnt they?

[OU_Sooners75]

You can't talk about faith without praying?


What if he cant? What is the harm in that? If you dont like what he says and you dont want to hear it, then don't!

That is what is wrong with this country. Everyone is so worried what someone else is saying and doing that they forget to sit back and relax and enjoy life!

No, everyone wants to take an issue and run with it and make it more than what it actually is.

The constitution does not make it illegal for a person to say a prayer in public. Nor does it make it illegal for a government employee to say a prayer or reference a religious figure when giving a speech.

The only thing the constitution does is prohibits the federal government from a state sponsored religion.

Individuals have the right to express religious beliefs anywhere and everywhere.

If you don't like that, then close yourself off from society...because it happens everywhere.

And yermom, don't take this as me being some religious fanatic...far from the truth if you do, ask Albosooner and others of my discussions in the past about my views of religion, especially the Christian religion.

[Memtig14]

i really dont think this is what the framers had in mind when they put separation of church and state in the bill of rights

i'm sure the anti-religious types will applaud it - but it makes me sad

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/02/prayer-prohibited-at-graduation-ceremony/?test=latestnews

Very sad.


And you are right.....this is not what they intended.

[MR2-Sooner86]

"Do you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?"

ZoBSulRD-_Y&feature

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Why, hello IX Amendment!


The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

In other words, by the application of the I Amendment in the ruling, other applicable parts of the I Amendment are being denied to the student. If that student is of legal age and is not acting in the capacity of that governmental agency, then it should be well within his right to tell this ruling to go to hell.

[OU_Sooners75]

ZoBSulRD-_Y&feature


So you like others speaking for you huh? :D

[jk the sooner fan]

i know yermom goes to quite a few of the Sooner football games - how on earth do you handle being in the north end zone when so many of those players - getting a free education at a state funded university - kneel in that end zone and pray RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU......or when some of them pray AFTER THE GAME IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIELD...or when they give praise to God during an interview after the game

how on earth are you able to have not filed numerous lawsuits from this onslaught of oppressive religion?

[Fraggle145]

What if he cant? What is the harm in that? If you dont like what he says and you dont want to hear it, then don't!

But if you are a student that is graduating, that choice isnt the same. Then its attend the ceremony marking a milestone in your life or dont.

The other thing I would say is that there are social conotations that come with people who pray etc... if you dont pray or act like you are praying with them in context then you are immediately an outsider. Some will come talk to you about it and then decide to "help" you, some will be judgmental, some wont care. But there are ramifications to not upholding the status quo. And it can seem like it is a very big deal, and occasionally it actually really is.

I agree none of this will really amount to a hill of beans, but I just wanted to throw those two points in here.

[yermom]

i know yermom goes to quite a few of the Sooner football games - how on earth do you handle being in the north end zone when so many of those players - getting a free education at a state funded university - kneel in that end zone and pray RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU......or when some of them pray AFTER THE GAME IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIELD...or when they give praise to God during an interview after the game

how on earth are you able to have not filed numerous lawsuits from this onslaught of oppressive religion?

last time i checked they were praying personally in the NEZ and not leading me in doing so. there was also nothing i saw in that article blocking them from thanking or giving praise to God in the graduation ceremony, just not calling the group to prayer

is it THAT hard to understand?

[jk the sooner fan]

and nobody at the graduation is REQUIRED to repeat any prayers - you can sit there and play wordswith friends on your iphone if you want

is it THAT hard to understand?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

AMERICUH!

F*CK YEAH!

[OU_Sooners75]

But if you are a student that is graduating, that choice isnt the same. Then its attend the ceremony marking a milestone in your life or dont.

The other thing I would say is that there are social conotations that come with people who pray etc... if you dont pray or act like you are praying with them in context then you are immediately an outsider. Some will come talk to you about it and then decide to "help" you, some will be judgmental, some wont care. But there are ramifications to not upholding the status quo. And it can seem like it is a very big deal, and occasionally it actually really is.

I agree none of this will really amount to a hill of beans, but I just wanted to throw those two points in here.


And yet, you still have the option of leaving the ceremony or listening to a mobile device instead. You don't have to listen to the prayer or speech.

The student has the fundamental right to say whatever he wishes in his personal speech.

[OU_Sooners75]

last time i checked they were praying personally in the NEZ and not leading me in doing so. there was also nothing i saw in that article blocking them from thanking or giving praise to God in the graduation ceremony, just not calling the group to prayer

is it THAT hard to understand?


And yet, you dont have to partcipate in that prayer. Is that too hard to understand? ;)

[OUMallen]

I guess I'm struggling with trying to identify what kind of "irreparable harm" the Shultz family would suffer if anyone prayed at the ceremony. :confused:

Just legalese to be able to get an injunction.

[OUMallen]

The student has the fundamental right to say whatever he wishes in his personal speech.


BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZT


Wrong.

[The Maestro]

last time i checked they were praying personally in the NEZ and not leading me in doing so. there was also nothing i saw in that article blocking them from thanking or giving praise to God in the graduation ceremony, just not calling the group to prayer

is it THAT hard to understand?

jk proved yermom's point better than anyone could have.

Everyone can pray at graduation. Why does it have to be outloud and for all to hear? I might be checking out Jugsy Larue at graduation but I don't have to stand up and make a public declaration of it. Talking to God should be personal unless it is in a church setting then fire away since you are all in one accord. Not the case at a school event. Pray away...I think the God you worship will be fine with it being silent since he knows all thoughts.

[tator]

i know yermom goes to quite a few of the Sooner football games - how on earth do you handle being in the north end zone when so many of those players - getting a free education at a state funded university - kneel in that end zone and pray RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU......or when some of them pray AFTER THE GAME IN THE MIDDLE OF THE FIELD...or when they give praise to God during an interview after the game

how on earth are you able to have not filed numerous lawsuits from this onslaught of oppressive religion?
Does anyone actually believe most sports figures when they do this though? Some make it a point in their life, great for them, but for most of them it seems like a stunt.

[OU_Sooners75]

BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZT


Wrong.


What is wrong about it?

A person has the right to say what they wish...those words may land him in trouble if they are to incite harm...but you have the right to freedom of speech.

So says the First Amendment of United States Consititution.

[jk the sooner fan]

Does anyone actually believe most sports figures when they do this though? Some make it a point in their life, great for them, but for most of them it seems like a stunt.

everybody knows God likes some teams/players better than others

[OU_Sooners75]

Does anyone actually believe most sports figures when they do this though? Some make it a point in their life, great for them, but for most of them it seems like a stunt.

Status Quo maybe?

[OUMallen]

What is wrong about it.

A person has the right to say what they wish...those words may land him in trouble if they are to incite harm...but you have the right to freedom of speech.

So says the First Amendment of United States Consititution.

If you can get in trouble for saying something, you don't have the "fundamental right to say whatever you want." What you said was not true. A falsehood. BZZZZT-worthy, and wrong.

[yermom]

What is wrong about it?

A person has the right to say what they wish...those words may land him in trouble if they are to incite harm...but you have the right to freedom of speech.

So says the First Amendment of United States Consititution.

the Supreme Court decides how the Constitution applies. if you don't like it, you can leave ;)

[SpankyNek]

What is wrong about it.

A person has the right to say what they wish...those words may land him in trouble if they are to incite harm...but you have the right to freedom of speech.

So says the First Amendment of United States Consititution.

First, the schools code of conduct supercedes that right.

You can't say c@#t, or corpse fuc$%r, even if the intent is levity.

[OU_Sooners75]

First, the schools code of conduct supercedes that right.

You can't say c@#t, or corpse fuc$%r, even if the intent is levity.


So you are going to tie in the names of Jesus, Allah, Mohammed, etc into the vulgar words of society now?

[OU_Sooners75]

the Supreme Court decides how the Constitution applies. if you don't like it, you can leave ;)


Yes, you can always leave...however, it seems the SCOTUS has created law on this issue...and in which, they have over stepped their boundry.

I am far from a bible thumper or a religious guru...but I am also secure enough with my own views that I do not feel threatened or harmed when someone says a prayer in public.

I guess we should impeach Obama and all past Presidents for referencing God in their speeches on numerous occasions! Not to mention all Senators and Representatives for taking their oaths on a bible. Lets also not forget to impeech all judicial members for swearing witnesses in before the bible.

All that can happen and does on a daily basis, but an 17-18 year old kid cannot incite a prayer during his personal speech in his greatest moment of his/her life at the time?

Okay, gotcha!

[SpankyNek]

So you are going to tie in the names of Jesus, Allah, Mohammed, etc into the vulgar words of society now?

It was merely an example given to refute your earlier comment, but....

If a person can choose whether or not to be offended by prayer, aren't they equally empowered to shrug off the occasional utterance of "a$$fu&% stain?"

[jk the sooner fan]

you cant say ANYTHING you want

for instance, it is NOT ok to yell "movie" in a crowded firehouse

[OUMallen]

Let me get you guys framed properly here to argue. It's not about who hears what, whether it really does anyone any harm, etc.


A PUBLIC institution (public school) cannot mandate or promote or encourage or prefer a religion, or even appear to prefer a religion. This would be a violation of the establishment clause, which forbids the government from the establishment of a religion. (More to do with THAT aspect of the First Amendment than it has to do with an individual's right to speech.)

This is good for everyone. I don't see why people freak out. It's a patriotic as you can get- keep religion out of schools so that we are all free from having to adopt others' beliefs, or otherwise be treated differently or left out by our own government. Or even persecuted.

[yermom]

So you are going to tie in the names of Jesus, Allah, Mohammed, etc into the vulgar words of society now?

you are adding more to the story than is there. they can mention God as far as i can tell.

[tator]

take it to the Williams vs ONEOK thread....

[OUMallen]

So you are going to tie in the names of Jesus, Allah, Mohammed, etc into the vulgar words of society now?

You were wrong. Just admit it.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://sdgln.com/files/imagecache/articlesm/chaz_crop-1486.jpg

LOOK AT THE GUNS ON THIS GUY!

[OU_Sooners75]

Let me get you guys framed properly here to argue. It's not about who hears what, whether it really does anyone any harm, etc.


A PUBLIC institution (public school) cannot mandate or promote or encourage or prefer a religion, or even appear to prefer a religion. This would be a violation of the establishment clause, which forbids the government from the establishment of a religion. (More to do with THAT aspect of the First Amendment than it has to do with an individual's right to speech.)

This is good for everyone. I don't see why people freak out. It's a patriotic as you can get- keep religion out of schools so that we are all free from having to adopt others' beliefs, or otherwise be treated differently or left out by our own government. Or even persecuted.

Yet, the kid is not speaking on behalf of the state, government, or school. He is making a speech of his memories, his past, his future, and gestures a prayer to his peers.

Nothing wrong with it. His peers and the audience members have a choice too. they can listen, partake, or ignore.

No harm was done in this...and for anyone to think there was they are insufferable creatures.

Like I said earlier...the problem with this country is everyone is too worried about what everyone else is doing and saying instead of focusing on their own life and problems. And everyone is more worried about getting everyone to believe in what they believe in that they lose focus on what what really matters most, Themselves!

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://www.foywonder.com/current_columns/gfx/foy_0903_01.jpg

Yay, gay aids!

[OU_Sooners75]

You were wrong. Just admit it.

As long as a person is not speaking on behalf of the government, school, town, etc, then that person has the right afforded to them by the United States Constitution to the freedom of speech, as long as it does not incite violence or harm.

I may be wrong, but arent you an attorney? If so, you should know this.

I am not a religious person by any stretch of the imagination, but I dont consider myself Atheist either.

That said, I don't care if a person gets up on stage and recites the Lord's Prayer from the Christian religion, nor do I care if a person places a rug down facing the east and prayes to Allah. I just wont partcipate. As long as they are not speaking on behalf of the government, they have the right do so!

[Fraggle145]

Nothing wrong with it. His peers and the audience members have a choice too. they can listen, partake, or ignore.


This and what I was saying earlier is what I have a problem with. The audience (or at least the other kids going through graduation) doesnt really have a choice about who is speaking. So all of the other kids that want to go to graduation have to hear this kid speak. They dont really have the option of not hearing him if they want to go through the ceremony.

To me it is putting that individuals rights before the rights of everyone else. If they had a legitimate choice of going or not going and by proxy deciding what they wanted to listen to I could get on board with you. But this is a choice that to celebrate your milestone moment you must hear this or dont come. Its different than being a paying customer or coming to msg board etc...

I really think the best option is not letting the valedictorian speak at all. Anywhere. Ever.

One other point I would make is that you can say it is the kids personal speech, but kids are easily manipulated to include things (in this case maybe a prayer) to get someone else's agenda across. I know at my high school there would have been (and was) tremendous pressure to do so.

And I think because all of their speeches do have to get approved etc... they are representing the school and not just themselves.

[jk the sooner fan]

T

I really think the best option is not letting the valedictorian speak at all. Anywhere. Ever.



well that would make the ceremony much shorter - you could have the dean just point to that student and say "that guy over there? yeah - he/she kicked your *** in the classroom"


and then you'd be done with it

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://www.gunaxin.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/fired-560x300.jpg

LOOK OUT! HERE COMES A JEWISH GUY!

[Fraggle145]

well that would make the ceremony much shorter - you could have the dean just point to that student and say "that guy over there? yeah - he/she kicked your *** in the classroom"


and then you'd be done with it

Sounds good to me. Hell in most OK high schools there are like 12 valedictorians. Effing joke.

[OUMallen]

As long as a person is not speaking on behalf of the government, school, town, etc, then that person has the right afforded to them by the United States Constitution to the freedom of speech, as long as it does not incite violence or harm.

I think you are an attorney, you should know that.

I am not a religious person by any stretch of the imagination, but I dont consider myself Atheist either.

That said, I don't care if a person gets up on stage and recites the Lord's Prayer from the Christian religion, not do I care if a person places a rug down facing the east and prayes to Allah. As long as they are not speaking on behalf of the government, they have the right do so!

*sigh

Major problem with our society today is you. Seriously. You say something false. You get called out on it. Then you can't even admit it's false. You don't want to have an open mind for discussion in order to more deeply understand issues and further hone and adapt your point of view.

You just want to scream what you think and act like it is a) right, and b) unique. Newsflash: you aren't the special snowflake your mommy told you you were. Your ideas are nothing new, and the post above was a falsehood. Besides, what you said above is different from what you said earlier, which was that, paraphrased: you have the FUNDAMENTAL right to say ANYTHING you want, but you might get in trouble. Which is immediately false, because if you can get in trouble for it, it's not a fundamental right. Cats are not dogs. Apples are not oranges. And if you might get in trouble for saying somehting, you don't have a fundamental right to say it.

We could learn a lot from more collectivistic societies like the Japanese.


Let me more aptly make your point for you, what I _think_ your point is: if an individual talks about religion to a group of people, the government isn't going to throw them in jail or anything liek that.

But when the public entity is sponsoring an event and is choosing the speakers, the onus is on the public entity to abide by any applicable rules. Fire code/occupancy. Not holding the ceremony in an abandoned and condemned building. Not serving alcohol to 18 year olds. And also, yes, as a public entity, not promoting a religion or any religion.

See, the problem with YOUR idea is that any individual person could run up there at a public event and espouse views that the public entity could not, and then just get away with it and no one gets in trouble? The school could claim it had no idea what was about to happen? I think not. The school has the burden to ensure a secular program for eveyrone.

No one gives a nut what your (or my) preference is on the matter. That's not the legal test- your relative level of offended-ness. Please.

[SoCaliSooner]

Thank you Jesus for private school. They can pray and tell kids that being homo is wrong...and that not everybody goes to heaven.

[SpankyNek]

As long as a person is not speaking on behalf of the government, school, town, etc, then that person has the right afforded to them by the United States Constitution to the freedom of speech, as long as it does not incite violence or harm.

I may be wrong, but arent you an attorney? If so, you should know this.

I am not a religious person by any stretch of the imagination, but I dont consider myself Atheist either.

That said, I don't care if a person gets up on stage and recites the Lord's Prayer from the Christian religion, nor do I care if a person places a rug down facing the east and prayes to Allah. I just wont partcipate. As long as they are not speaking on behalf of the government, they have the right do so!

Here we go again....so it's ok if the kid says "In honor of father Satan, I would like all in attendance to join me in a moment of reflection as we think of large hairy men penetrating the C%^ts of our grandmothers, and cloven hooves being inserted into the f&*kholes of small forest animals."

A student has the First Amendment right to this, but the school, as a government entity (No matter what compels them) has the right to limit it, as does the venue in which the event is taking place.

[SpankyNek]

Thank you Jesus for private school. They can pray and tell kids that being homo is wrong...and that not everybody goes to heaven.

AMEN

[OU_Sooners75]

*sigh

Major problem with our society today is you. Seriously. You say something false. You get called out on it. Then you can't even admit it's false. You don't want to have an open mind for discussion in order to more deeply understand issues and further hone and adapt your point of view.

You just want to scream what you think and act like it is a) right, and b) unique. Newsflash: you aren't the special snowflake your mommy told you you were. Your ideas are nothing new, and the post above was a falsehood. Besides, what you said above is different from what you said earlier, which was that, paraphrased: you have the FUNDAMENTAL right to say ANYTHING you want, but you might get in trouble. Which is immediately false, because if you can get in trouble for it, it's not a fundamental right. Cats are not dogs. Apples are not oranges. And if you might get in trouble for saying somehting, you don't have a fundamental right to say it.

We could learn a lot from more collectivistic societies like the Japanese.


Let me more aptly make your point for you, what I _think_ your point is: if an individual talks about religion to a group of people, the government isn't going to throw them in jail or anything liek that.

But when the public entity is sponsoring an event and is choosing the speakers, the onus is on the public entity to abide by any applicable rules. Fire code/occupancy. Not holding the ceremony in an abandoned and condemned building. Not serving alcohol to 18 year olds. And also, yes, as a public entity, not promoting a religion or any religion.

See, the problem with YOUR idea is that any individual person could run up there at a public event and espouse views that the public entity could not, and then just get away with it and no one gets in trouble? The school could claim it had no idea what was about to happen? I think not. The school has the burden to ensure a secular program for eveyrone.

No one gives a nut what your (or my) preference is on the matter. That's not the legal test- your relative level of offended-ness. Please.


People can pray at graduations and other school events all they want. The sole issue here is whether a public school can have a prayer at a graduation or other school event as an official, school-sponsored part of the program.


So, did the kid do the prayer on his own or did the school sponsor the prayer?

If the kid did it on his own, he has the right. If the school sponsored and planned the prayer, then yes, it is legally forbidden.

Not so sure what is hard to understand about that.

So instead of trying to act like Johnny Know-it-all and assume quite abit, try actually following along with what I am saying or at least trying to say.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://www.ifc.com/blogs/ifc-now/images/office-space-ajay-naidu.jpg

[OU_Sooners75]

Here we go again....so it's ok if the kid says "In honor of father Satan, I would like all in attendance to join me in a moment of reflection as we think of large hairy men penetrating the C%^ts of our grandmothers, and cloven hooves being inserted into the f&*kholes of small forest animals."

I dont think it is okay, and I wouldnt chose to listen to that...however, the individual has the right to say it.


A student has the First Amendment right to this, but the school, as a government entity (No matter what compels them) has the right to limit it, as does the venue in which the event is taking place.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

[The]

People that still make-believe after childhood are sad.

[yermom]

http://www.progressiveboink.com/jon/images/moviescenes/office1.JPG

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://yeahoyeah.com/artistPhotos/1315_full.jpg

[MsProudSooner]

Here we go again....so it's ok if the kid says "In honor of father Satan, I would like all in attendance to join me in a moment of reflection as we think of large hairy men penetrating the C%^ts of our grandmothers, and cloven hooves being inserted into the f&*kholes of small forest animals."



Spanky, you have such a way with words.....;)

[okie52]

But make sure the school lets everyone know its "Homo Month" and make sure and get those kindy gartners some rubbers.

Meh. Liberals F'in suck.

:D

[OUMallen]

I dont think it is okay, and I wouldnt chose to listen to that...however, the individual has the right to say it.



Thank you Captain Obvious.

You say it's obvious, but that seems to be your mental block.

[OU_Sooners75]

I still find it funny how many people get sand in their vaginas over such a pathetic issue such as someone reciting a Christian prayer.

I can tell you right now...had it been a Muslim prayer, people would be looking the other way since Muslim seems to be the new Taboo in this country.

Kind of like the end of the movie "Animal" with Rob Schnieder.

vPDln2dcpYA Start at 1:59

[texaspokieokie]

what has happened to "majority rules" ???

one complaint can ruin things for hundreds of folks.

[OU_Sooners75]

You say it's obvious, but that seems to be your mental block.


Actually it went very much with what I was saying.

And sorry that either I failed at trying to explain myself better, or that you failed trying to understand it.

My view on this issue is that it is not unconstitutional for an individual to say a prayer at a government sponsored event...it is unconstitutional for the government entity to sponsor prayer...in this case, it is unconstitutional for school to sponsor prayer.

So, like I said did the school sponsor and plan the prayer or did the student make it part of his/her individual speech?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://www.newcommunities.org/cmaimages/heroes09-ls-nugent.jpg

[The Profit]

what has happened to "majority rules" ???

one complaint can ruin things for hundreds of folks.




That would be a true democracy. The United States is not a true democracy. We are a republic.

[The]

what has happened to "majority rules" ???

one complaint can ruin things for hundreds of folks.

Yeah, did you hear those uppity negroes can actually VOTE now?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/stuart_king/donkey.jpg

[OUMallen]

People can pray at graduations and other school events all they want. The sole issue here is whether a public school can have a prayer at a graduation or other school event as an official, school-sponsored part of the program.


So, did the kid do the prayer on his own or did the school sponsor the prayer?

If the kid did it on his own, he has the right. If the school sponsored and planned the prayer, then yes, it is legally forbidden.

Not so sure what is hard to understand about that.

So instead of trying to act like Johnny Know-it-all and assume quite abit, try actually following along with what I am saying or at least trying to say.

Oh, sorry. Just got back to this thread. I was thumbing through my law degree and the A I made in my First Amendment Class. Sorry to give you actual information that I should be charging by the hour to give. But I suppose you're welcome.

OK I had to re-read the article because I'm confused: WTF kid are you talking about that prayed? Doesn't look like anyone prayed- this was in anticipation of a planned public prayer.


Any speaker there doesn't have the individual right to say whatever he wants when he's a speaker at an event the school puts on, clearly. The school would otherwise be condoning it if it sat back and allowed it. The school will be sued, and they will NOT have the defense that the individual was exercising First Amendment rights. Think about the consequences of that.

Football fields across Texas would be quiet in Baptist prayer every Friday night because the individual pastor was just exercising his First Amendment right to pray. He happened to have an audience and a microphone provided by the school, but that's his individual right!

[SpankyNek]

Actually it went very much with what I was saying.

And sorry that either I failed at trying to explain myself better, or that you failed trying to understand it.

My view on this issue is that it is not unconstitutional for an individual to say a prayer at a government sponsored event...it is unconstitutional for the government entity to sponsor prayer...in this case, it is unconstitutional for school to sponsor prayer.

So, like I said did the school sponsor and plan the prayer or did the student make it part of his/her individual speech?
If the school reviews all speeches, therefore putting their seal of approval upon the act of a contained prayer, they are sponsoring what is being said.

I don't care if they wheel in a volunteer balloon sculptor to lead a prayer...they should save such reverent acts for baccalaureate.

[OUMallen]

what has happened to "majority rules" ???

one complaint can ruin things for hundreds of folks.

Our country was founded on principles that are larger than majority rules. You really need to get back to some basics if you think "majority rules" is the only and controlling guideline by which we live here.

[Gandalf_The_Grey]

So let's say the kid submits an approved speech and then gets up there and says, "Everyone I would like to lead anyone who would like to join me in a short prayer." Do they taze or shoot that disrespectful mother ****er...have him arrested...maybe the Superintendent can run and tackle that ******* and then someone can post it on youtube!!

[OU_Sooners75]

Oh, sorry. Just got back to this thread. I was thumbing through my law degree and the A I made in my First Amendment Class. Sorry to give you actual information that I should be charging by the hour to give. But I suppose you're welcome.

OK I had to re-read the article because I'm confused: WTF kid are you talking about that prayed? Doesn't look like anyone prayed- this was in anticipation of a planned public prayer.


Any speaker there doesn't have the individual right to say whatever he wants when he's a speaker at an event the school puts on, clearly. The school would otherwise be condoning it if it sat back and allowed it. The school will be sued, and they will NOT have the defense that the individual was exercising First Amendment rights. Think about the consequences of that.

Football fields across Texas would be quiet in Baptist prayer every Friday night because the individual pastor was just exercising his First Amendment right to pray. He happened to have an audience and a microphone provided by the school, but that's his individual right!

At least you stay consistent with the condescending attitude.

You should probably get laid to solve that problem. But then again, your attitude probably hampers that aspect of your life.


Im not so much talking about the article in the OP...hell, I know Im not since I havent read it. I am commenting about what someone said nted about a student performing the prayer.

But dont read the entire thread...I know your busy with your law book fascinating with your A.

[The]

So let's say the kid submits an approved speech and then gets up there and says, "Everyone I would like to lead anyone who would like to join me in a short prayer." Do they taze or shoot that disrespectful mother ****er...have him arrested...maybe the Superintendent can run and tackle that ******* and then someone can post it on youtube!!

Religion is like a penis. You may enjoy it, and it may give you great fulfillment and satisfaction, but you really shouldn't whip it out in public. Especially in front of kids.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Unless you're on a plane from Spokane to Denver.

[yermom]

what has happened to "majority rules" ???

one complaint can ruin things for hundreds of folks.

this was determined before the Constitution was even ratified:


Either the existence of the same passion or interest in a majority at the same time must be prevented, or the majority, having such coexistent passion or interest, must be rendered, by their number and local situation, unable to concert and carry into effect schemes of oppression. If the impulse and the opportunity be suffered to coincide, we well know that neither moral nor religious motives can be relied on as an adequate control.

http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm

[OU_Sooners75]

So let's say the kid submits an approved speech and then gets up there and says, "Everyone I would like to lead anyone who would like to join me in a short prayer." Do they taze or shoot that disrespectful mother ****er...have him arrested...maybe the Superintendent can run and tackle that ******* and then someone can post it on youtube!!


Kind of what I was thinking.

Wonder what the Pearl Habor speech by FDR would have sounded like had he not changed it on the way to the speech?

:pop:

I guess in the real world, once a speech is approved, it cannot be altered!

[The]

this was determined before the Constitution was even ratified:



http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa10.htm


Yeah, but people are acting in a manner in which he doesn't approve. This country's going straight to hell.

[OUMallen]

At least you stay consistent with the condescending attitude.

You should probably get laid to solve that problem. But then again, your attitude probably hampers that aspect of your life.


Im not so much talking about the article in the OP...hell, I know Im not since I havent read it. I am commenting about what someone said nted about a student performing the prayer.

But dont read the entire thread...I know your busy with your law book fascinating with your A.


Sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities, puddin. You deserve a lot more than internet snark for your intentional and voluntary miring in ignorance. Someone ought to literally punch you in the arm and hand you a book.


(Word to the wise: doing well in law school actually HELPS you get laid.)

[OUMallen]

Yeah, but people are acting in a manner in which he doesn't approve. This country's going straight to hell.

The is bringing the thunder in this theads. ::thumbsup

[The Maestro]

Religion is like a penis. You may enjoy it, and it may give you great fulfillment and satisfaction, but you really shouldn't whip it out in public. Especially in front of kids.

Greatness.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Student's microphone was cut off after making a joke about school. (http://archive.slickdeals.net/t103965.html)

Student wanted to give his speech as a rap song but school wouldn't allow it. (http://www.ktnv.com/story/14702601/graduation-speech-banned-because-student-wrote-it-as-a-rap)

Student told he can't say, "Love, Peace and Hair Grease" in his speech. (http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2010/06/30/valedictorians-graduation-speech-banned)

Student's graduation speech altered. (http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/article1007807.ece)

With that said...

Court rules graduation speech ban is unconstitutional
HELENA, Mont.—A Butte High School valedictorian was unconstitutionally banned from speaking at her graduation because she refused to remove the words “God” and “Christ” from her speech, the Montana Supreme Court ruled Friday. (http://www.texarkanagazette.com/news/WireHeadlines/2010/11/20/court-rules-graduation-speech-ban-is-unc-24.php)

So, who's in the wrong here? Are all graduation speech censorships unconstitutional then?

[OUMallen]

Student's microphone was cut off after making a joke about school. (http://archive.slickdeals.net/t103965.html)

Student wanted to give his speech as a rap song but school wouldn't allow it. (http://www.ktnv.com/story/14702601/graduation-speech-banned-because-student-wrote-it-as-a-rap)

Student told he can't say, "Love, Peace and Hair Grease" in his speech. (http://nation.foxnews.com/culture/2010/06/30/valedictorians-graduation-speech-banned)

Student's graduation speech altered. (http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/article1007807.ece)

With that said...

Court rules graduation speech ban is unconstitutional
HELENA, Mont.—A Butte High School valedictorian was unconstitutionally banned from speaking at her graduation because she refused to remove the words “God” and “Christ” from her speech, the Montana Supreme Court ruled Friday. (http://www.texarkanagazette.com/news/WireHeadlines/2010/11/20/court-rules-graduation-speech-ban-is-unc-24.php)

So, who's in the wrong here? Are all graduation speech censorships unconstitutional then?

Good question. Not sure what it is until the SCOTUS rules.

[OU_Sooners75]

Good question. Not sure what it is until the SCOTUS rules.

So the SCOTUS justices are the supreme rulers of this country?

Seems to me the SCOTUS is starting to get away from ruling on law and the constitution and trying to insert their own law.

[OU_Sooners75]

Sorry to offend your delicate sensibilities, puddin. You deserve a lot more than internet snark for your intentional and voluntary miring in ignorance. Someone ought to literally punch you in the arm and hand you a book.


(Word to the wise: doing well in law school actually HELPS you get laid.)


Im not offended...you're just being a conscending little bitch. But I understand as to why you are.

Glad you have done good in law school...but as far as your word to the wise...how much does each lay cost you?