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sappstuf
5/25/2011, 04:50 PM
Good luck with that. He even offers Paul Ryan help.


“So anyway, I told them before you got here, I said I’m glad we won this race in New York,” Clinton told Ryan, when the two met backstage at a forum on the national debt held by the Pete Peterson Foundation. But he added, “I hope Democrats don’t use this as an excuse to do nothing.”

Ryan told Clinton he fears that now nothing will get done in Washington.

“My guess is it’s going to sink into paralysis is what’s going to happen. And you know the math. It’s just, I mean, we knew we were putting ourselves out there. You gotta start this. You gotta get out there. You gotta get this thing moving,” Ryan said.

Clinton told Ryan that if he ever wanted to talk about it, he should “give me a call.” Ryan said he would.


Former President Bill Clinton, still widely considered one of his party’s foremost politicians, said on Wednesday that Democrats should cut a “reasonable” deal with Republicans on Medicare savings rather than conclude from Tuesday’s upset in a special Congressional election that bashing Republicans on the issue is the key to a party comeback in 2012…

“You shouldn’t draw the conclusion that the New York race means that nobody can do anything to slow the rate of Medicare costs. I just don’t agree with that,” Mr. Clinton said at a budget forum sponsored by the Peter G. Peterson Foundation. Instead, he said, “you should draw the conclusion that the people made a judgment that the proposal in the Republican budget is not the right one. I agree with that.”…

Mr. Clinton, with some passion, returned to the topic at the end of an hour-long interview. “I think the Democrats are going to have to be willing to give up, maybe, some short-term political gain by whipping up fears on some of these things — if it’s a reasonable Social Security proposal, a reasonable Medicare proposal. We’ve got to deal with these things. You cannot have health care devour the economy.”

http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/05/bill-clinton-to-paul-ryan-on-medicare-election-give-me-a-call-.html

Damnation. Bill Clinton telling Dems to stop the campaign of FEAR! and come up with a reasonable plan. I'm sorry to tell him, but I don't think the Dems in power now CAN come up with a reasonable plan...

Of course we all understand that Ryan's plan wouldn't touch anyone 55 years and older, but that hasn't stopped the Dems from the demonization.

I do admire their subtlety in this commercial though..

OGnE83A1Z4U&

delhalew
5/25/2011, 04:54 PM
Those adds were very unfortunate. I'm glad somebody told em they were blowing it.

2121Sooner
5/25/2011, 04:56 PM
And then he went to console Maria Shriver

hawaii 5-0
5/26/2011, 01:37 AM
Suppose you're 54 years old. You've been putting money into Medicare for 30 years.

Them someone comes along with a plan to take all that money you've invested in your retirement health plan and gives you $3,000 and tells you to go out and buy your own insurance.

Don't mind that as you've aged you've now got diabetes, heart failure, obesity, hypertension, osteoporosis, a bad back, knees and hips from arthritis, and maybe cancer. Now, how far does that $3,000 voucher get ya?

Oh, and at the same time, no one has done a thing about curbing the health insurance companies from raising your premiums.

And to top it off, let's give a nice fat tax break if you make over a half-million dollars and can actually afford the proposed Health Plan.


It really paints a woeful picture for anyone in Congress who actually stood up, supported and voted for this Piece of Shlt legislation.


5-0



Trump/ Gaga 2012

Gandalf_The_Grey
5/26/2011, 02:31 AM
So let me get this straight, Newt tells the Republicans to stop being loons..Clinton tells the Democrats to stop being fear mongers...Maybe the world is about to end

The Profit
5/26/2011, 07:27 AM
This is a great issue for Democrats. We are going to use it until election day in 2012. Look what the gop did with the Medicare issue during the health care debate.

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 07:31 AM
This is a great issue for Democrats. We are going to use it until election day in 2012. Look what the gop did with the Medicare issue during the health care debate.

If the Dems keep going their way in about 20 years medicare won't exist because there will be no money to pay for it. Good luck with fighting for that in 20 years. In reality they may win in the short term but they won't exist as a party in the long term if we keep avoiding fixing this issue. I don't really like Paul Ryan's plan. It isn't that much different from what we have right now really. It just allows the people to basically use what the politicians use in health care. No plan the democrats put out does this. There's a reason thousands of companies and some states have basically gotten out of the health care plan. It's a bad deal.. I would like a completely free market approach to health care. Where the individual can decide what they need in their plan completely. Basically take all government controls out of it.

delhalew
5/26/2011, 08:29 AM
Suppose you're 54 years old. You've been putting money into Medicare for 30 years.

Them someone comes along with a plan to take all that money you've invested in your retirement health plan and gives you $3,000 and tells you to go out and buy your own insurance.

Don't mind that as you've aged you've now got diabetes, heart failure, obesity, hypertension, osteoporosis, a bad back, knees and hips from arthritis, and maybe cancer. Now, how far does that $3,000 voucher get ya?

Oh, and at the same time, no one has done a thing about curbing the health insurance companies from raising your premiums.

And to top it off, let's give a nice fat tax break if you make over a half-million dollars and can actually afford the proposed Health Plan.


It really paints a woeful picture for anyone in Congress who actually stood up, supported and voted for this Piece of Shlt legislation.


5-0



Trump/ Gaga 2012

That free insurance will sure beat a kick in the teeth, which is what the Democrats lies are going to get you.

REDREX
5/26/2011, 09:58 AM
Why don't the Dems put out a plan?----Only a fool would believe that the current plan is not going broke

The Profit
5/26/2011, 10:00 AM
Why don't the Dems put out a plan?----Only a fool would believe that the current plan is not going broke




We might after the election, but first, we are going to scare the hell out of everyone 50 years old or older.

REDREX
5/26/2011, 10:04 AM
We might after the election, but first, we are going to scare the hell out of everyone 50 years old or older.--- Just shows that all the Dems care about is getting reelected and not the good of the country----Medicare has $40 Trillon in unfunded liability ---no way to tax your way out of this mess

StoopTroup
5/26/2011, 10:12 AM
That free insurance will sure beat a kick in the teeth, which is what the Democrats lies are going to get you.

For 20+ years I paid into a plan that would help with any payments that would pick up where Medicare stops and now some folks what to sell it out for a couple of bucks an hour as many of us near having to actually use the plan....

Yep....

It's democrats that are the problem. :rolleyes:

Folks.....when you find out that greed is the real problem and that we should be putting people in Office who will either put the folks who have defrauded Americans for the last 20 years in jail or force them to start paying up....

You'll then understand why some of us are turning on Republicans and Democrats.

virginiasooner
5/26/2011, 10:12 AM
We might after the election, but first, we are going to scare the hell out of everyone 50 years old or older.

I'm scared already -- I don't want my in-laws moving in with me! As for the commercials showing the Eddie Munster lookalike wheeling Granny over the cliff, I say MORE OF THEM.

StoopTroup
5/26/2011, 10:15 AM
I'm scared already -- I don't want my in-laws moving in with me! As for the commercials showing the Eddie Munster lookalike wheeling Granny over the cliff, I say MORE OF THEM.

Yup...

And I don't mind if they are Dems or Pubs killing old people in the commercials they are both not very nice people........Clinton is calling them all out and doing so correctly.

delhalew
5/26/2011, 10:17 AM
For 20+ years I paid into a plan that would help with any payments that would pick up where Medicare stops and now some folks what to sell it out for a couple of bucks an hour as many of us near having to actually use the plan....

Yep....

It's democrats that are the problem. :rolleyes:

Folks.....when you find out that greed is the real problem and that we should be putting people in Office who will either put the folks who have defrauded Americans for the last 20 years in jail or force them to start paying up....

You'll then understand why some of us are turning on Republicans and Democrats.

I'm not convinced that you are less of a partisan hack than Profit. That's why I avoid talking politics with you. I find hard to understand how a guy like you ended up with your opinions. :D

StoopTroup
5/26/2011, 10:18 AM
I'm not convinced that you are less of a partisan hack than Profit. That's why I avoid talking politics with you. I find hard to understand how a guy like you ended up with your opinions. :D

It's hard to discuss things like this when we make rational points based on real world experience

delhalew
5/26/2011, 10:19 AM
Yup...

And I don't mind if they are Dems or Pubs killing old people in the commercials they are both not very nice people........Clinton is calling them all out and doing so correctly.

Clinton was doing what he does best. Talking out both sides of his mouth.

sappstuf
5/26/2011, 10:19 AM
We might after the election, but first, we are going to scare the hell out of everyone 50 years old or older.

Right.. Even though it doesn't change anything for people over 55. The Dems stance is, "We don't know what the F&*^ to do, but we will scare everyone and kick the bucket down the road".

Even Bill can see that will not work.

I like the Dem plan.. Cause when the money runs out, it will run out. Medicare will collapse and old people like you and your generation will die off sooner.. Helps with Medicare, SSN, pretty much everything. By time I get up there, it will have been built back up on the money that was saved by the genocide caused by the Dems.

Let's do it.

delhalew
5/26/2011, 10:23 AM
It's hard to discuss things like this when we make rational points based on real world experience

That's kind of the problem. It's about perspective. My perspective makes the majority of you sound like space aliens, and vice versa, I would imagine.

The Profit
5/26/2011, 10:24 AM
Yup...

And I don't mind if they are Dems or Pubs killing old people in the commercials they are both not very nice people........Clinton is calling them all out and doing so correctly.




ST, Clinton is playing the game, and doing a great job. He will be the good guy publicly, and let the DNC be the bad guys. In the meantime, he is sending me letters asking for donations to the DNC. Clinton is smart enough to know that the Medicare issue alone can give the dems states like Florida.

StoopTroup
5/26/2011, 10:27 AM
ST, Clinton is playing the game, and doing a great job. He will be the good guy publicly, and let the DNC be the bad guys. In the meantime, he is sending me letters asking for donations to the DNC. Clinton is smart enough to know that the Medicare issue alone can give the dems states like Florida.

So? It keeps his Wife as Sec. of State. Why wouldn't he?

Still....he's a lot smarter with his brain than his Pizza Girl Delivery Idea

The Profit
5/26/2011, 10:29 AM
Right.. Even though it doesn't change anything for people over 55. The Dems stance is, "We don't know what the F&*^ to do, but we will scare everyone and kick the bucket down the road".

Even Bill can see that will not work.

I like the Dem plan.. Cause when the money runs out, it will run out. Medicare will collapse and old people like you and your generation will die off sooner.. Helps with Medicare, SSN, pretty much everything. By time I get up there, it will have been built back up on the money that was saved by the genocide caused by the Dems.

Let's do it.





No...when the money runs out, we will just raise taxes on the top 1 percent.

virginiasooner
5/26/2011, 10:37 AM
Yup...

And I don't mind if they are Dems or Pubs killing old people in the commercials they are both not very nice people........Clinton is calling them all out and doing so correctly.

Clinton is doing to Ryan what he did to Newt in 1995-96 -- triangulating. Clinton is a political genius. Clinton knew the camera was there and said something nice to a junior pol who just had his teeth kicked in. Gingrich underestimated Clinton, to his eternal detriment. The government shutdown did not go over very well, and then there was that whole impeachment thingamajig.

The Profit
5/26/2011, 10:40 AM
Clinton is doing to Ryan what he did to Newt in 1995-96 -- triangulating. Clinton is a political genius. Clinton knew the camera was there and said something nice to a junior pol who just had his teeth kicked in. Gingrich underestimated Clinton, to his eternal detriment. The government shutdown did not go over very well, and then there was that whole impeachment thingamajig.




Excellent analysis.

REDREX
5/26/2011, 10:41 AM
No...when the money runs out, we will just raise taxes on the top 1 percent.
----No way that would even dent the problem---Even at a 100% tax rate

The Profit
5/26/2011, 10:43 AM
----No way that would even dent the problem---Even at a 100% tax rate



Certainly it would. We could simply go back to the Dwight David Eisenhower tax rates. Then, we could do away with the social security tax cap. It would make us a better country, and our elderly would be taken care of in the proper manner.

sappstuf
5/26/2011, 10:45 AM
No...when the money runs out, we will just raise taxes on the top 1 percent.

Not even close. Hopefully Obama, despite everything he has done, will get lucky and the economy will start to improve.


Real gross domestic product — the output of goods and services produced by labor and property located in the United States — increased at an annual rate of 1.8 percent in the first quarter of 2011

1.8%... If the rich are not making money, how are you going to tax them?

sappstuf
5/26/2011, 11:01 AM
Certainly it would. We could simply go back to the Dwight David Eisenhower tax rates. Then, we could do away with the social security tax cap. It would make us a better country, and our elderly would be taken care of in the proper manner.

I like the Dem plan better... Let you guys die off, but pretend we care, say all the right things and tell scary stories around the campfire about Repubs. I might switch over and be a Dem for the next decade. It is certainly in my best interest for their plan(lack of a plan?) to come to fruition.

The Profit
5/26/2011, 11:06 AM
I like the Dem plan better... Let you guys die off, but pretend we care, say all the right things and tell scary stories around the campfire about Repubs. I might switch over and be a Dem for the next decade. It is certainly in my best interest for their plan(lack of a plan?) to come to fruition.




You are always welcome, Sapps....It would be good to have you.

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 12:25 PM
No...when the money runs out, we will just raise taxes on the top 1 percent.

Which will change nothing and still make the system broke. The top 1% will just hide taxes or pay it to loans making the money basically disappear for now until the taxes get lowered. Raising taxes on the top 1% has never raised revenue in this country. We need a more simplified tax rate to where everyone pays a balanced amount.

Bourbon St Sooner
5/26/2011, 12:31 PM
Suppose you're 54 years old. You've been putting money into Medicare for 30 years.

Them someone comes along with a plan to take all that money you've invested in your retirement health plan and gives you $3,000 and tells you to go out and buy your own insurance.

Don't mind that as you've aged you've now got diabetes, heart failure, obesity, hypertension, osteoporosis, a bad back, knees and hips from arthritis, and maybe cancer. Now, how far does that $3,000 voucher get ya?

Oh, and at the same time, no one has done a thing about curbing the health insurance companies from raising your premiums.

And to top it off, let's give a nice fat tax break if you make over a half-million dollars and can actually afford the proposed Health Plan.


It really paints a woeful picture for anyone in Congress who actually stood up, supported and voted for this Piece of Shlt legislation.


5-0



Trump/ Gaga 2012

Has it ever occured to you that the reason insurance companies keep raising premiums is because too many Americans have diabetes, high blood pressure, heart desease, etc? How long should the healthy continue subsidizing people that make poor lifestyle choices?

Welcome to America. Unlimited hamburgers and bypasses until the money runs out.

Bourbon St Sooner
5/26/2011, 12:34 PM
For 20+ years I paid into a plan that would help with any payments that would pick up where Medicare stops and now some folks what to sell it out for a couple of bucks an hour as many of us near having to actually use the plan....


Medicare has unfunded liabilities of $40 trillion. So, apparently you haven't paid enough. The problem with this country is everybody wants their free **** without paying for it.

pphilfran
5/26/2011, 12:37 PM
Suppose you're 54 years old. You've been putting money into Medicare for 30 years.

Them someone comes along with a plan to take all that money you've invested in your retirement health plan and gives you $3,000 and tells you to go out and buy your own insurance.

Don't mind that as you've aged you've now got diabetes, heart failure, obesity, hypertension, osteoporosis, a bad back, knees and hips from arthritis, and maybe cancer. Now, how far does that $3,000 voucher get ya?

Oh, and at the same time, no one has done a thing about curbing the health insurance companies from raising your premiums.

And to top it off, let's give a nice fat tax break if you make over a half-million dollars and can actually afford the proposed Health Plan.


It really paints a woeful picture for anyone in Congress who actually stood up, supported and voted for this Piece of Shlt legislation.


5-0



Trump/ Gaga 2012

Do you have a solution?

pphilfran
5/26/2011, 12:38 PM
For 20+ years I paid into a plan that would help with any payments that would pick up where Medicare stops and now some folks what to sell it out for a couple of bucks an hour as many of us near having to actually use the plan....

Yep....

It's democrats that are the problem. :rolleyes:

Folks.....when you find out that greed is the real problem and that we should be putting people in Office who will either put the folks who have defrauded Americans for the last 20 years in jail or force them to start paying up....

You'll then understand why some of us are turning on Republicans and Democrats.

Do you have a solution?

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 12:42 PM
Do you have a solution?

Exactly it's not like 40 trillion in unfunded liabilities is easy to come by. If you tax the rich 100% you only get at the most 1 to 1.5 trillion and that's if all the rich stayed in this country.

Bourbon St Sooner
5/26/2011, 12:48 PM
Do you have a solution?

Ignore it and it will go away?

pphilfran
5/26/2011, 12:56 PM
Ignore it and it will go away?

Nope..wrong answer...

I get tired of people not wanting to try new solutions....everyone knows there is a terrible long term problem...with difficulty almost beyond comprehension...we would let the ship sink before we implement any6 type solution...fixing ss is a piece of cake...limited number of solutions...could be fixed tomorrow...

Part of our problem is that most do not realize there are two separate problems which will require different solutions...

1. The skyrocketing cost...
2. The high amount of uninsured...

I wish I knew the answer...

The Profit
5/26/2011, 12:58 PM
Do you have a solution?




I do....Socialized medicine. It works in every highly developed country in the world. Healthcare, at any age, should be a right and not a privilege.

badger
5/26/2011, 01:05 PM
Regardless of what you think Clinton's motivations are, we're in a governmental stalemate at this point, with the Republicans controlling the House, the Democrats controlling the Senate, and Obama controlling nothing.

The bills both sides are passing are doomed to die because neither side will approve them. What was the one the House did yesterday? Forbidding teachers to teach certain topics? Yeah, I'm sure the Senate will even debate that one :rolleyes:

It's who we elected and it strongly reminds me of what I've heard about California --- Democratic voters electing far lefties and Republicans electing far righties and there being no middle ground, no compromising, nothing accomplished. :(

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 01:14 PM
I do....Socialized medicine. It works in every highly developed country in the world. Healthcare, at any age, should be a right and not a privilege.

Why should I use something when I haven't even been in a hospital as a patient for 15 years? Health care isn't a right or privilege. It's a product and should be treated as such. And people that don't use the product shouldn't have to pay for it.

I understand having health care plans for those that have something like diabetes, asthma or a number of other conditions which need continual care. I'm not against those. But having healthy people pay for a health care system that they really don't use is stupid.

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 01:17 PM
Regardless of what you think Clinton's motivations are, we're in a governmental stalemate at this point, with the Republicans controlling the House, the Democrats controlling the Senate, and Obama controlling nothing.

The bills both sides are passing are doomed to die because neither side will approve them. What was the one the House did yesterday? Forbidding teachers to teach certain topics? Yeah, I'm sure the Senate will even debate that one :rolleyes:

It's who we elected and it strongly reminds me of what I've heard about California --- Democratic voters electing far lefties and Republicans electing far righties and there being no middle ground, no compromising, nothing accomplished. :(

I don't really think there is a far right in this country in a true sense. If you wan to call it that. Actually everyone in the government right now its big government conservatives from the right. In political history the right was always the big government sides. The leftests were always the smaller government side. But that's basically been flipped in modern US tersm.

I don't see a huge difference between most democrats and most republicans. There's a few republicans that are really different. Ron and Rand Paul for example. But it's a debate about which side will protect you through government better right now. Not a debate between a real left or right.

REDREX
5/26/2011, 01:18 PM
Certainly it would. We could simply go back to the Dwight David Eisenhower tax rates. Then, we could do away with the social security tax cap. It would make us a better country, and our elderly would be taken care of in the proper manner.---Go look at the Revenue---it would not come close to taking care of the deficit and the unfunded liabilities

The Profit
5/26/2011, 01:20 PM
---Go look at the Revenue---it would not come close to taking care of the deficit and the unfunded liabilities



Then, let's go to full socialized medicine. That's right. A single-payer system. Medical care does not need to be a "for profit" adventure.

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 01:21 PM
Profit we already have your socialized medicine. The government basically pays 88% of the average person's health care right now. `That's right 12% of the costs go to the individual in this country. You want the government to take over another 12% and think that will really make it cheaper? It'll hide to from the people but it'll make it more expensive if anything.

REDREX
5/26/2011, 01:25 PM
Then, let's go to full socialized medicine. That's right. A single-payer system. Medical care does not need to be a "for profit" adventure.--- Fraud in Gov't medical programs is more that the profit of health insurance conpanies---

badger
5/26/2011, 01:25 PM
I don't really think there is a far right in this country in a true sense. If you wan to call it that. Actually everyone in the government right now its big government conservatives from the right. In political history the right was always the big government sides. The leftests were always the smaller government side. But that's basically been flipped in modern US tersm.

I don't see a huge difference between most democrats and most republicans. There's a few republicans that are really different. Ron and Rand Paul for example. But it's a debate about which side will protect you through government better right now. Not a debate between a real left or right.

The key term for me was "far," not "right" or "left." The term "far" for me is "not compromising." There is no middle ground, there is no give and take, there is no giving up something in order to achieve one of your goals. There's the expectation that either you will get everything, or nobody will get anything. All or nothing.

Right now, there are very extreme goals on both sides.

The Profit
5/26/2011, 01:26 PM
--- Fraud in Gov't medical programs is more that the profit of health insurance conpanies---




and we should eliminate the fraud.

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 01:27 PM
and we should eliminate the fraud.

And when has government proven it can do that? There will be more fraud in the system you want.

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 01:28 PM
The key term for me was "far," not "right" or "left." The term "far" for me is "not compromising." There is no middle ground, there is no give and take, there is no giving up something in order to achieve one of your goals. There's the expectation that either you will get everything, or nobody will get anything. All or nothing.

Right now, there are very extreme goals on both sides.

I don't think the republicans are very extreme. The democrats are basically just ignoring the republicans and treating them like they are trying to destroy the system.

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 01:32 PM
If the republicans were really extreme they would be for completely giving away all health insurance to private companies completely and make it a completely free market system. That's not really what they are proposing.

DIB
5/26/2011, 01:38 PM
Both Dems and Repubs are extreme on their pet issues. For some it is fiscal issues and for others it is social issues. The art of the compromise has died. The solution to the budget could not be more simple:

1. Cut out all pork
2. Make real cuts to entitlement programs to ensure future solvency
3. Make real cuts to Defense and foreign aide
4. Raise taxes across the board until the budget deficit disappears

Unfortunately, too many politicians' re-election chances are tied up in the above, so they aren't willing to budge. Nothing will get fixed until something catastrophic happens.

REDREX
5/26/2011, 01:40 PM
and we should eliminate the fraud.---What an original idea

The Profit
5/26/2011, 01:40 PM
---What an original idea




Thanks Redrex. I appreciate that.

badger
5/26/2011, 01:50 PM
I don't think the republicans are very extreme. The democrats are basically just ignoring the republicans and treating them like they are trying to destroy the system.

OK, let's define "extreme" also in my own little badger mind, of course. I define "extreme" as not compromising.

A Republican goal that seems beyond the stages of compromising, based on Coburn quitting the Gang of Six and all --- is that the budget can be balanced while cutting taxes. Coburn seemed to be one of the few budget busters ready to give into raising taxes in exchange for huge cuts to spending. The key words were "in exchange."

Coburn quit when, in another "extreme" decision, huge budget cuts were seemingly taken off the table by Democrats, in favor of raising taxes alone to balance the budget.

So, once again, we are at far left vs far right, an extreme, no-compromise demand meeting another extreme no-compromise demand. Democrats seem to refuse to consider huge cuts to spending and Republicans seem to refuse to consider raising taxes.

Something has got to give in order for something to get accomplished. I'm not holding my breath.

The Profit
5/26/2011, 01:55 PM
OK, let's define "extreme" also in my own little badger mind, of course. I define "extreme" as not compromising.

A Republican goal that seems beyond the stages of compromising, based on Coburn quitting the Gang of Six and all --- is that the budget can be balanced while cutting taxes. Coburn seemed to be one of the few budget busters ready to give into raising taxes in exchange for huge cuts to spending. The key words were "in exchange."

Coburn quit when, in another "extreme" decision, huge budget cuts were seemingly taken off the table by Democrats, in favor of raising taxes alone to balance the budget.

So, once again, we are at far left vs far right, an extreme, no-compromise demand meeting another extreme no-compromise demand. Democrats seem to refuse to consider huge cuts to spending and Republicans seem to refuse to consider raising taxes.

Something has got to give in order for something to get accomplished. I'm not holding my breath.




I have no problem with making huge cuts in spending (especially military, farm subsidies, oil subsidies, coal subsidies and yes, even in medicare and SS.).

I support substantially raising taxes on those making more than $250K annually.

I support doing away with the cap on social security earnings

I support raising the amount everyone pays in for medicare (even those below $250K in annual revenue).



See, I have no problem with compromising.

hawaii 5-0
5/26/2011, 02:03 PM
Do you have a solution?



Gosh Phil, if I had a solution to all our deficit/health problems I'd be one fat cat.

I admit I'm not full of successful ideas but I can sure spot a few bad ones. Even the folks in Rep. Ryan's own district are against his wild plan.

As are 80% of all voters. It's not 'cause they don't 'get it'. It's because it's a terrible solution.

Telling workers who've put in 10,20 even 30 years into their health care that they just lost that hard earned entitlement ain't gonna please anyone. Can I take it that your health care is paid for till your death? Lucky you!


I personally like the idea of a true Bipartisan Committee who would work together to solve our problems. It was happening till Dr. Tom Coburn decided it was better to look after his own interests over the country's when he suddenly quit. Gosh, just as the investigation is gearing up into his brokerage of the payoff $$$$$ of $90,000 to Sen. Ensign's mistress's cuckolded husband by Ensign's parents.


Sure, there's better ways to fix the deficit, welfare, Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and the bloated Defense Budget. That's the job of elected officials.

If they can't do it, vote 'em out.


5-0


Trump/ Calvin Steves 2012

badger
5/26/2011, 02:17 PM
See, I have no problem with compromising.

That's great! Alas, this isn't a state question issue or a national referendum. You have to get the elected officials to compromise.

sappstuf
5/26/2011, 02:40 PM
Well the one thing we do know is that it is Obama that is cutting Medicare by $500 billion... And that had nothing to do with Repubs.

As a newly converted Dem, I am happy that Obama did this.. The sooner Medicare defaults then the sooner old people start dying, the better off for my generation.

Of course, keeping in line with the Obama administration, I have gained the ability to grant "waivers" from the destruction of Medicare to those that apply through a readily transparent system that will have no published guidelines and I then deem worthy of a waiver.

Phil has been given the first waiver..

Saul Good
5/26/2011, 02:46 PM
I do....Socialized medicine. It works in every highly developed country in the world. Healthcare, at any age, should be a right and not a privilege.

What in the h*** do you think Medicare and Medicaid are right now?!?!

Your solution changes nothing for the topic at hand....................the fact that Medicare is GROSSLY underfunded BY A SINGLE PAYOR (i.e. The Government).

Try again

badger
5/26/2011, 02:50 PM
I know that there are some very difficult cuts to make -- Medicare and Social Security have to be the toughest of all, because many sick and elderly rely so much on those resources and need it to live. They're especially tough for politicians, because old people vote more than anyone else on the planet.

By that same token, higher education and education in general is probably the easiest cut. Young people are so full of energy and life compared to us old cronies. They have their entire lives to pay off college debt or to learn stuff. Why should the rest of us have to pay the bill when we are working toward retirement and taking care of our own health? For politicians, young people just don't give a crap enough to vote, so they're expendable :eek:

Makes you kind of wonder why education is so much a part of budgets and healthcare isn't. Kids don't vote :rolleyes:

The Profit
5/26/2011, 02:54 PM
What in the h*** do you think Medicare and Medicaid are right now?!?!

Your solution changes nothing for the topic at hand....................the fact that Medicare is GROSSLY underfunded BY A SINGLE PAYOR (i.e. The Government).

Try again



Hey, I am the first to agree that Medicare and Medicaid have real problems that need to be solved. There is too much fraud in both programs. We won't need either of the programs if we will just opt for 100 percent socialized medicine. Then, we can have the same outstanding health systems enjoyed by France, Germany and other nations.

Healthcare should not be a "for profit" endeavor.

Saul Good
5/26/2011, 03:06 PM
Hey, I am the first to agree that Medicare and Medicaid have real problems that need to be solved. There is too much fraud in both programs. We won't need either of the programs if we will just opt for 100 percent socialized medicine. Then, we can have the same outstanding health systems enjoyed by France, Germany and other nations.

Healthcare should not be a "for profit" endeavor.

While I think we are both agreeing that something (additional to obamacare)needs to be done to fix a system that is too expensive and does not produce the same results as our European counterparts. With that said, insurance companies are not the only participants in "the system" that are working for profit. Eliminating them brings up many, many other issues nobody ever talks about when desiring a socialized system. Call the business office of your local hospital, see if you can get the CFO then ask him/her who is really funding their operation. I will guarantee you it isn't Medicare or Medicaid. Changing to solely a govt system will completely change your physician/hospital experience. Too many to type/discuss here.

The second piece to consider are the lifestyle choices that America "enjoys" that our European counterparts do not. We, as a society, are much much unhealthier than they are thus flooding "the system" at a rate Europe does not have. We are as much a part of the problem as the system is.

So in sum, your proposal moves everyone to a form of "insurance" that is currently grossly underfunded and mismanaged while eliminating the part of the system that makes up/pays for the losses the government programs create for your doc/hospital all in the name of ensuring just one aspect of the system does not make a profit. I think we can do better.

The Profit
5/26/2011, 03:11 PM
While I think we are both agreeing that something (additional to obamacare)needs to be done to fix a system that is too expensive and does not produce the same results as our European counterparts. With that said, insurance companies are not the only participants in "the system" that are working for profit. Eliminating them brings up many, many other issues nobody ever talks about when desiring a socialized system. Call the business office of your local hospital, see if you can get the CFO then ask him/her who is really funding their operation. I will guarantee you it isn't Medicare or Medicaid. Changing to solely a govt system will completely change your physician/hospital experience. Too many to type/discuss here.

The second piece to consider are the lifestyle choices that America "enjoys" that our European counterparts do not. We, as a society, are much much unhealthier than they are thus flooding "the system" at a rate Europe does not have. We are as much a part of the problem as the system is.

So in sum, your proposal moves everyone to a form of "insurance" that is currently grossly underfunded and mismanaged while eliminating the part of the system that makes up/pays for the losses the government programs create for your doc/hospital all in the name of ensuring just one aspect of the system does not make a profit. I think we can do better.


Saul, you are so right on so many things, yet you don't seem to understand that I would like to do away with Medicare and Medicaid. I would like to replace them with universal health care. Yes, that's right, 100 percent socialized medicine. Then, like in Europe, there would be real medical education related to health styles (e.g. smoking, obesity, etc.). At the current time, Americans' life styles create opportunities for profit for the healthcare industry.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
5/26/2011, 03:16 PM
Why don't the Dems put out a plan?----Only a fool would believe that the current plan is not going brokeDuh! it's OBAMACARE! It will supersede ALL medical treatment options, VERY SOON, if not stopped. (apologies to anyone else who might have already pointed this out, after the thread I quoted from REDREX. I haven't read thru all the comments, yet)

Saul Good
5/26/2011, 03:19 PM
Saul, you are so right on so many things, yet you don't seem to understand that I would like to do away with Medicare and Medicaid. I would like to replace them with universal health care. Yes, that's right, 100 percent socialized medicine. Then, like in Europe, there would be real medical education related to health styles (e.g. smoking, obesity, etc.). At the current time, Americans' life styles create opportunities for profit for the healthcare industry.

I understand what you are saying but I would argue that Medicare and Medicaid are socalized medicine. Moving everyone to a government program/universal heatlth care would be essentially moving them all to Medicare. Isn't it run by the govt? Isn't everyone covered? I just have serious reservations in looking towards a universal plan where the govt is the single payer (as they are for Medicare and Medicaid) when they have proven time and time again they cannot manage the current plans. The only solution they have offered to their financial problems is to minimize what they pay the docs and hospitals.

With that said, I would LOVE for there to be more lifestyle education/programs/solutions for the people here in the US. In my opinion, we are our own worst enemy.

And I will say that I do not work for an insurance company but have access to information and I can abolutely guarantee you poor lifestyles by Americans absolutely do not create profit for the insuors. Diabetes, heart disease, folks with metabolic syndrome are the biggest "losers" for the insurance companies. They want nothing more than for the numbers of covered lives with these conditions to go down. I guarantee it.

The Profit
5/26/2011, 03:23 PM
I understand what you are saying but I would argue that Medicare and Medicaid are socalized medicine. Moving everyone to a government program/universal heatlth care would be essentially moving them all to Medicare. Isn't it run by the govt? Isn't everyone covered? I just have serious reservations in looking towards a universal plan where the govt is the single payer (as they are for Medicare and Medicaid) when they have proven time and time again they cannot manage the current plans. The only solution they have offered to their financial problems is to minimize what they pay the docs and hospitals.

With that said, I would LOVE for there to be more lifestyle education/programs/solutions for the people here in the US. In my opinion, we are our own worst enemy.

And I will say that I do not work for an insurance company but have access to information and I can abolutely guarantee you poor lifestyles by Americans absolutely do not create profit for the insuors. Diabetes, heart disease, folks with metabolic syndrome are the biggest "losers" for the insurance companies. They want nothing more than for the numbers of covered lives with these conditions to go down. I guarantee it.



While Medicare and Medicaid are socialized insurance, they do not represent socialized medicine. The providers (hospitals, doctors, pharmaceutical companies), who are compensated by Medicare and Medicaid are "for profit," which is where the fraud and waste occur.

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 03:25 PM
No fraud occurs when people are involved not because they are for profit. Fraud happens even more often when it's not for profit if anything. If you think Europe is having no problems with fraud in health care then you are crazy.

Bourbon St Sooner
5/26/2011, 03:36 PM
Then, let's go to full socialized medicine. That's right. A single-payer system. Medical care does not need to be a "for profit" adventure.

So how do you control costs in your single payor system? Or is health care an unlimited commodity in your utopia?

Bourbon St Sooner
5/26/2011, 03:45 PM
Healthcare should not be a "for profit" endeavor.

I agree, and while we're at it why are those damn greedy farmers charging money for their crops? And don't even get me started with the home builders.

sappstuf
5/26/2011, 03:47 PM
I agree, and while we're at it why are those damn greedy farmers charging money for their crops? And don't even get me started with the home builders.

As a newly turned Dem, I need to inform you that comparisions of food and health care are not valid, b because we have no answer.. Well.. We have one..

Racist.

The Profit
5/26/2011, 03:51 PM
I agree, and while we're at it why are those damn greedy farmers charging money for their crops? And don't even get me started with the home builders.




Couldn't you say that about police protection, fire protection, libraries, highways, etc. There are some forms of socialism that are good and necessary, and some that are not. Simple as that.

Sooner98
5/26/2011, 03:55 PM
I have no problem with making huge cuts in spending (especially military, farm subsidies, oil subsidies, coal subsidies and yes, even in medicare and SS.).

I support substantially raising taxes on those making more than $250K annually.

I support doing away with the cap on social security earnings

I support raising the amount everyone pays in for medicare (even those below $250K in annual revenue).



See, I have no problem with compromising.

The left's economic plan in a nutshell:

1. Intentionally raise spending/deficits through the roof, while tax rates/receipts remain essentially the same.

2. Offer to lower spending, if it comes along with substantial tax increases on the rich.

3. Once these things have happened, you have the same amount of spending as before, along with substantially higher tax rates on the wealthy.

4. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Yay compromise!!

The Profit
5/26/2011, 03:58 PM
The left's economic plan in a nutshell:

1. Intentionally raise spending/deficits through the roof, while tax rates/receipts remain essentially the same.

2. Offer to lower spending, if it comes along with substantial tax increases on the rich.

3. Once these things have happened, you have the same amount of spending as before, along with substantially higher tax rates on the wealthy.

4. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Yay compromise!!




Don't lie....You probably believe in trickle down, don't ya?

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 04:02 PM
Trickle down works if you keep spending relatively low because in the end lower taxes means more business freedom and more people employed. Our tax rates have basically been about the same since the 60s with slight differences here and there. But the percentages have basically been about the same and the tax receipts have basically been the same. It hasn't been that much different the last half century or so. The difference has been the spending increases.

The Profit
5/26/2011, 04:06 PM
Trickle down works if you keep spending relatively low because in the end lower taxes means more business freedom and more people employed. Our tax rates have basically been about the same since the 60s with slight differences here and there. But the percentages have basically been about the same and the tax receipts have basically been the same. It hasn't been that much different the last half century or so. The difference has been the spending increases.



Trickle down (voodoo economics) has never worked.

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 04:07 PM
Trickle down (voodoo economics) has never worked.

Neither has raising the taxes on the rich. Taxes should be at a low flat rate without deductions. Not biased against the rich or biased for the poor. Right now the biggest problem with taxes is that half the people in the country don't pay federal taxes.

The Profit
5/26/2011, 04:09 PM
Neither has raising the taxes on the rich. Taxes should be at a low flat rate without deductions. Not biased against the rich or biased for the poor. Right now the biggest problem with taxes is that half the people in the country don't pay federal taxes.




Sure it has. It worked in 1993 during the Clinton administration.

Bourbon St Sooner
5/26/2011, 04:11 PM
Couldn't you say that about police protection, fire protection, libraries, highways, etc. There are some forms of socialism that are good and necessary, and some that are not. Simple as that.


Perhaps you should study the concept of public goods and then come back and tell me how health care is so much like police, fire, roads, etc.

badger
5/26/2011, 04:12 PM
Trickle down (voodoo economics) has never worked.

I remember this from high school economics, comparing FDR to his predecessor.

In dummy terms (perfect for me!) when you give a homeless guy a dollar, he will buy a hamburger (or drugs, but the important part is that he buys something!). When you give Bill Gates a dollar, he will invest it. It will sit in a bank account and accrue interest. One gets the economy moving, the other sits in an account and does nothing but earn a few cents in interest.

In the more complex blah blah terms (can't believe I remember this stuff), the plan was for business, which currently had surpluses of goods, to receive money, causing them to produce more goods, driving prices down from higher inventory. Lower prices would encourage people to buy goods, the economy is healthy. Alas, business will not produce more goods when they already have surplus inventory.

When you give poor people money, they will buy goods. Buying goods will either drive prices higher and encourage business to produce more goods to meet demand.

I understand this all, and yet I still vote Republican. :P

The Profit
5/26/2011, 04:16 PM
Perhaps you should study the concept of public goods and then come back and tell me how health care is so much like police, fire, roads, etc.




Health care should be a right, and not a commodity. Just as we have a right to be educated (i.e. public schools and libraries), to be protected (i.e. police,fbi,cia,fire departments), the right to get from place to place (i.e. public highways), etc., we should have the right to health care. Health care is a right and not a privilege.

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 04:17 PM
First off it didn't work right away. Remember he was in big trouble up till 1995. A few things saved Clinton. Capital gains taxes dropped from 28-20 percent allowing businesses to do more. The dotcom boom started. Republicans won the midterms and started cutting spending in government. And finally he connected with the American people after the tragedy in OKC on April 19th.

If these things don't happen Clinton is having the same problems Obama has now with the bad economy, unemployment high, and low approval ratings. Obama's approval after the bump from Bin Ladin is back in the 40s again. Anyone can beat Obama in the next election. If you don't see that you are blind. And I won't even vote for most of the candidates the republicans are running out there. The only 3 I'll vote for are Cain, Paul, and Johnson.

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 04:32 PM
Socialized medicine is really doing great in England right now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1390925/Elderly-patients-dying-thirst-Doctors-forced-prescribe-drinking-water-old-alive-reveals-devastating-report-hospital-care.html

The Profit
5/26/2011, 04:37 PM
Socialized medicine is really doing great in England right now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1390925/Elderly-patients-dying-thirst-Doctors-forced-prescribe-drinking-water-old-alive-reveals-devastating-report-hospital-care.html




It is doing fantastic in Germany, Sweden, France, The Netherlands, Norway, Finland, Denmark, etc. The British like their healthcare system as well.

pphilfran
5/26/2011, 04:41 PM
Sure it has. It worked in 1993 during the Clinton administration.

No it didn't...income tax revenue fell even with the higher taxes...cap gains revenue gained..some due to increased taxes but most due to a booming stock market that created the cap gains that fueled the taxes..

REDREX
5/26/2011, 04:49 PM
Like my Canadian friends say---Their healthcare system is great----as long as you don't get sick

The Profit
5/26/2011, 04:52 PM
Like my Canadian friends say---Their healthcare system is great----as long as you don't get sick




I worked for a Canadian company. They absolutely loved their healthcare system. One of my friends had a treadmill test and was discovered to have 4 blockages. Within hours, he was being prepped for surgery. The surgery went just fine, and he was back to work in 3 weeks. His total bill was: CAN $ 0.0.

badger
5/26/2011, 04:55 PM
His total bill was: CAN $ 0.0.

Gotta love the exchange rate that results in the Canadian dollar always being worthless ;)

















(yes I am joking)

pphilfran
5/26/2011, 04:55 PM
I worked for a Canadian company. They absolutely loved their healthcare system. One of my friends had a treadmill test and was discovered to have 4 blockages. Within hours, he was being prepped for surgery. The surgery went just fine, and he was back to work in 3 weeks. His total bill was: CAN $ 0.0.

I say that is one of OUR problems...low or no out of pocket causes an overload on the system...

We all want the best health care we can get...we want those new MRI's...we want those new drugs...but we are not willing to pay for the development or testing required for those high dollar new technologies....

REDREX
5/26/2011, 04:56 PM
I worked for a Canadian company. They absolutely loved their healthcare system. One of my friends had a treadmill test and was discovered to have 4 blockages. Within hours, he was being prepped for surgery. The surgery went just fine, and he was back to work in 3 weeks. His total bill was: CAN $ 0.0.--I have two friends that had their Fathers die waiting to have bypass surgery----Ask them what they think about it----Both of them now come to the US for any big medical problems

bigfatjerk
5/26/2011, 04:58 PM
I say that is one of OUR problems...low or no out of pocket causes an overload on the system...

We all want the best health care we can get...we want those new MRI's...we want those new drugs...but we are not willing to pay for the development or testing required for those high dollar new technologies....

I agree but trying to hide the cost by saying that people don't pay for it except through taxes basically doesn't really get rid of those costs or make them cheaper. In fact they make these types of technology rarer because the free market can't produce more advanced technology.

The Profit
5/26/2011, 04:59 PM
--I have two friends that had their Fathers die waiting to have bypass surgery----Ask them what they think about it----Both of them now come to the US for any big medical problems




There are good and bad stories about medical care here as well.

REDREX
5/26/2011, 05:01 PM
There are good and bad stories about medical care here as well.
---Neither would have had to wait here

hawaii 5-0
5/26/2011, 06:47 PM
I once threw out a disc on my back. No way could I work.

I had to wait a week to get a Doctors appointment. I had to wait another 2 weeks to get an MRI which the Doctor wouldn't see me without one.

It took me 3 weeks before I could finally get an operation.

Yeah, I had to wait. I wuz all stove up.


5-0


Trump/ Perry 2012

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
5/26/2011, 08:16 PM
.. I won't even vote for most of the candidates the republicans are running out there. The only 3 I'll vote for are Cain, Paul, and Johnson.GO AHEAD and cast a half-vote for the Obear. He can't do us any more harm in a second term...can he?

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
5/26/2011, 08:22 PM
Hey, it's been said the Cubans have the best socialized med. healthcare system. Michael Moore has praised Cuba for their healthcare. You guys on the left oughta go on down there for your REALLY IMPORTANT medical needs. Just tell them you're not a republican or anything like that, and they'll process you right on through.