Prayers and tornadoes

[The Maestro]

I almost hesitate to post this due to some perceiving it as insensitive, which is not the case. But in my recent search for truth I have very few places and people I can share my thoughts without catching a backlash of anger, questioning and resentment. Bottom line, I hope no one suffered from the tornadoes and never does. May they all miss homes, businesses, cars and just pull up grass and trees. I hate them and they are dangerous and scary.

Prayers and tornadoes…we’ve seen a lot of posts on here and you hear it on the radio, T.V. reports, etc. Prayers for recovery…prayer for protection from the tornadoes…and I am sensitive to the nature of the reliance on prayer. For years, I was raised with the same mindset. Possible disaster on its way? Pray for protection. Disaster strikes? Pray for peace and healing. It is something that folks use as a communication device to God. And the nature of this post is based on the audio from the Joplin video of the folks in the convenient store. You could easily hear an woman yelling out, “Heavenly Father! Jesus!” She was calling on the name of God in her time of crisis. Yet I was instantly struck by the thought, “Doesn’t the God you are calling on already know what is happening? Didn’t he design this or, at least, allow it?” If you, your friends, your loved one’s or even a neighbor or enemy have suffered from the tornadoes I am truly sorry and wish you nothing more than a speedy recovery and rebuilding process. None of us are void of tragedy or sadness in this world…so we who haven’t had to deal with that much of it are truly fortunate. Having said that….

One of these things is true…

1. God allowed and ordained the tornado and does each and every one of them as a form of punishment for man’s sins. If these happened in San Francisco or Las Vegas someone in the south would say it is a punishment for what happens in those cities. God has the force and ability to stop it…yet he allowed it. He is so powerful and he knows what it is going to do before it happens and was fine with it happening, no matter what it did to good people who even fear him, worship him, and live lives in accordance with his laws. This includes innocent children like the missing toddler in Piedmont. God is aware, but no respecter of man. So the prayers are all a waste of time cause these vicious acts of nature are all a part of his plan. He has no plan to stop his plan because you are in the way of danger, someone you know or love is in the way of danger, and his plan is too great and advanced for us to understand, so we might as well just accept the luck of avoiding the disasters that strike our world including sickness, disease and natural disasters. Personally, if I knew of impending disaster headed someone’s way and I had the ability to stop it…whether I knew them well or not…I certainly would tell them. For God to know it, have the ability to stop it and do nothing about it…makes him sound…well…you decide. The prayer is not part of the plan.

2. God allows nature to just take its course and the laws of nature are alive and well. God does, in fact, know about the tornadoes and it just so happens that you have chosen to live in an area where tornadoes are more likely due to climate. So while we have to accept that this life and earth is not perfect, the hope is in the perfection of heaven after this life. God could stop it, but he doesn’t. Again, the prayers seem pretty worthless. And this brings about a demented mentality for the person issuing the prayer. If you believe your prayers kept the tornado away from you, you have to also believe that God answered your prayer by dropping the wrath on someone else. For every person dodging the disaster someone is getting nailed by it. So to say that God spared you is to say he did not spare someone who lost their home, business, cars, loved ones or life itself. Almost a calloused mindset. The prayer is selfish.

3. There is no God. These are the laws of nature and there is a reason earthquakes take place where they do, tornadoes take place where they do, extreme heat happens where it does, extreme cold happens where it does and we are all subject to it based on where we choose to live. So if you choose to live in tornado alley you have to realize that in the spring time when the jet stream comes in from the rocky mountains and things heat up in the sky and the dew point is up…they are gonna happen. We all wish no disaster on anyone, but praying about it won’t take it away or help you dodge it. It is the nature of the beast of life in that part of the world. So, in this scenario, the prayer is simply to make you feel better when there is no one listening. The prayer is pointless.

If I have missed an option here that makes the prayers a great and effective idea, let me know. And again, a speedy recovery to all of you who suffered.

[soonerchk]

NFM

[olevetonahill]

Ill pray for you to find your way.

[soonerhubs]

Doesn't the Lord's prayer answer some of this? Thy will be done.

[JohnnyMack]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

- Epicurus

.

[delhalew]

Let me know what ya'll decide. That storm system is between myself and home. So far my plan is to drive straight into it.

[landrun]

You've actually asked a very deep theological question. One many Christians and theologians have thought through.

#2 is the closest from my personal opinion. I do believe God intervenes in the affairs of men. Only not nearly as much as we'd like to think.

It seems some of my fellow Christians think prayer is like a magic wand that can get God to do what you want. The Bible says so in their mind (it does not)

It seems to me that God created the laws of nature and spun the world, putting it in motion so to speak. What happens, happens. It seems He only intervenes at rare moments decided by Him.

What, when or why that occurs. I don't claim to know.

[landrun]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

Sounds logical. But I think God would argue about being malevolent.

You can not give man a free will without pain and evil. You could only prevent evil acts by removing free will. They coexist.

[The Maestro]

I just know I have seen christians pray to god time after time like he is santa claus. I have been to prayer meetings where everyone broke out their laundry list of needs.

--Help Bobby get a job
--Help Johnny to stop drinking
--Help the cancer to go away in Aunt Bea

If "Thy will be done" is it...prayer is pointless.

[delhalew]

I like the idea that many of these things have been delegated. I definitely don't fall in the magic wand category.

[delhalew]

I just know I have seen christians pray to god time after time like he is santa claus. I have been to prayer meetings where everyone broke out their laundry list of needs.

--Help Bobby get a job
--Help Johnny to stop drinking
--Help the cancer to go away in Aunt Bea

If "Thy will be done" is it...prayer is pointless.

It's clearly not pointless. You need to go back to the beginning were you admitted the power of faith in peoples lives. Some people need that faith.

[The Profit]

I just know I have seen christians pray to god time after time like he is santa claus. I have been to prayer meetings where everyone broke out their laundry list of needs.

--Help Bobby get a job
--Help Johnny to stop drinking
--Help the cancer to go away in Aunt Bea

If "Thy will be done" is it...prayer is pointless.




Aunt Bea had cancer?

[soonerchk]

NFM

[Turd_Ferguson]

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon the!

:pop:

[The Maestro]

You can not give man a free will without pain and evil. You could only prevent evil acts by removing free will. They coexist.

So he gave us the free will and then is shocked when we fail?

And so the magic fruit two people ate determines the demise of all descendants thereafter?

And the fix is a god who sacrifices himself to himself to save the world from the punishment he himself was planning to dole out?

My head hurts...

[delhalew]

So he gave us the free will and then is shocked when we fail?

And so the magic fruit two people ate determines the demise of all descendants thereafter?

And the fix is a god who sacrifices himself to himself to save the world from the punishment he himself was planning to dole out?

My head hurts...

I don't think he is the least bit shocked that we fail. I think failure is a large part of the human experience.

[The Maestro]

Faith requires you to accept things you don't understand. It's not blind faith, it's an acceptance that you aren't going to have the answers and just trust that there is something there.

But what if that faith ISN'T REAL????

I have determined there are two kinds of people. Some people want hope and some people want truth, regardless of how harsh the reality may be. Mark Twain echoes my sentiment--"Faith is believing in something you know ain't true." Fair enough. I have friends who chastise me and say, "What else is there?" The truth...

And someone said "some people need faith". Exactly. Some people need to break out their Poison casette tapes and listen to "Gimme Something to Believe In" to get by. Just because you need something doesn't make it fact. Kids need Santy Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny...doesn't make them real.

Arguments that explain everything...explain nothing.

[3rdgensooner]

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.
Stinkin' liberal






Sorry, cruiser made me post that.

[soonerchk]

What if it is and you're wrong?

[The Maestro]

Didn't mean to make this an atheist post. The three points I made in the first post were the point.

[delhalew]

Am I the only one that thinks it is so intensely personal, as to be irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned?

[The Profit]

So he gave us the free will and then is shocked when we fail?

And so the magic fruit two people ate determines the demise of all descendants thereafter?

And the fix is a god who sacrifices himself to himself to save the world from the punishment he himself was planning to dole out?

My head hurts...




No, I don't think he is shocked at all when we fail. We aren't God, He is. He expects us to fail. On the other hand, He expects us to attempt to do the right things like treating others as we would like to be treated (I fail here), taking care of the sick and poor, trying to promote peace, etc.

I tend to focus on the red letter words in the bible (the words of Christ). I also like the lessons found in James. As with Karma, I believe we are judged on our actions, and not solely on our words.

I was on a Southwest flight a few years ago from Houston to New Orleans. We flew through some bad weather and the elderly black lady sitting next to me prayed aloud for 15 straight minutes. Her prayers made her feel safer, and frankly, made me feel safer as well.

[soonerchk]

Am I the only one that thinks it is so intensely personal, as to be irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned.

Nope, that's why I edited.

[Jammin']

I don't pray to god to save me and my family from a tornado
I did pay a company to build me a storm shelter in my garage though.

Wish the prayer thing would work as it would have been cheaper.

[Mississippi Sooner]

Am I the only one that thinks it is so intensely personal, as to be irrelevant as far as this discussion is concerned.

It's why you'll never see me give much more than a smartassed (but damn witty) response in most any thread about politics or religion.

[The Maestro]

What if it is and you're wrong?

Eh, I could make an argument about once saved, always saved which pisses off relatives and friends...but they have claimed it before.

The burden of proof is on you. You have no evidence of God. No communication with him and the only evidence is a book written in the infancy of existence about the world...and has a lot of copycat stories from books written before then about virgin births and people raised from the dead.

Give me proof and I will believe. You have never seen God, heard God or touched God...anymore than a Muslim, Hindu, Mormon or any other believer of a God has.

I think it is all a great story and would be awesome...but I can't make myself believe in something with no proof. People's minds work different ways.

[delhalew]

It's why you'll never see me give much more than a smartassed (but damn witty) response in most any thread about politics or religion.

Well:D I feel the consequences of a fools politics more than their religion. Though there are some for whom they are one in the same.

[KantoSooner]

Maestro, you have always been a good read. If you are seriously after some perspective on the issues you raised, I would suggest Sam Harris' excellent 'The End Of Faith'. Particularly the sections on spirituality without religion.
You simply can't have a benificent supreme being who allows the **** that goes on. That's my judgement.

[JohnnyMack]

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon the!

:pop:

MMMmmmm....that IS a tasty burger!

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

A mix of 2 and 3

If there is a God then I believe he lets nature take it's course. If people choose to live in Tornado alley then that's their decision.

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

If I was God I would want people to take care of themselves and not sit around and hope stuff happens.

That's my view on religion

[OrlandoSooner]

MMMmmmm....that IS a tasty burger!

You mind if I have some of your tasty beverage to wash this down?

[OhU1]

Praying and yelling out Jesus’ name in panic during an approaching tornado is on the same level as my frightened hound dog quivering in fear when he hears thunder.

[swardboy]

Famous prayers that God answered "No"
...Paul the apostle - the "thorn' in his flesh was not removed. God said "My grace is sufficient. In your weakness My power is made known."
...Timothy. Paul advised him to take a little wine for his stomach's sake...no healing there.
...Trophimus, left ill at Miletus by Paul.

Why would a loving God leave us here, when Heaven awaits?

[swardboy]

Oh yeah...and Jesus. "If it be Your will, let this cup pass from me." Didn't happen.

[The Maestro]

Oh yeah...and Jesus. "If it be Your will, let this cup pass from me." Didn't happen.

But didn't he leave God's side in heaven for the sole purpose of dying on the cross? So then why was he asking to get out of the gig?

[2121Sooner]

Maestro, the problem is people praying at home or church are doing it all wrong.

They need to send out innernet prayers and set up paypal accounts for it to be effective in any way.

Hope this helped.

[jk the sooner fan]

there's a duality of man thing going on here.....

[adoniijahsooner]

God is God; and as God, He does what He pleases.

"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" ~ Amos 3:6

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." ~ Isaiah 45:7

"Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." ~ Luke 13:4


"You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?" ~ Isaiah 29:16

[The Maestro]

God is God; and as God, He does what He pleases.

"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" ~ Amos 3:6

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." ~ Isaiah 45:7

"Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." ~ Luke 13:4


"You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, "He did not make me"? Can the pot say of the potter, "He knows nothing"?" ~ Isaiah 29:16

Ah, so you take choice 1. The worst sounding god of all. The one that is in control, could stop it, but doesn't and says not to ask questions cause he is too big. Oh, but he loves us beyond all measure and stuff.

Your Spurgeon signature quote is interesting, too. Guess Spurgeon thinks if you were not born in a Protestant country god already had two strikes against you from the start...but again, don't ask questions. He's big, bad god. Who loves us.

[MsProudSooner]

If #1 is true, God intentionally decided to send a tornado that killed children and caused others to be missing. I could never give a God like that the time of day, much less worship him or her. I think sh!t happens - natural disasters, fools like Timothy McVeigh, whatever. If there is a God, he or she is what gives you the strength to deal with it.

[Hot Rod]

I love my kids beyond all measure and wish I could've stopped the injuries they encounter at school/playing sports/etc, but that doesn't make me less of dad, by not preventing them from ever receiving harm.

I understand what you're saying Maestro and from what I gather, people expect God to be this perfect, never-allowing anything wrong being. When in fact, he does allow circumstances to happen to us. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's for us to grow stronger. Maybe it's for us to assist someone later on in life that went through the same thing and give them strength.

[Position Limit]

If #1 is true, God intentionally decided to send a tornado that killed children and caused others to be missing. I could never give a God like that the time of day, much less worship him or her. I think sh!t happens - natural disasters, fools like Timothy McVeigh, whatever. If there is a God, he or she is what gives you the strength to deal with it.

it was satan that sent the tornado. it will be jesus that sends the money for the rebuiling effort.

[2121Sooner]

I don't get it. If natural weather or climate patterns end up creating something beautiful in nature you praise God for the beauty. But if a different weather pattern comes up and kills hundreds of people that is just nature and it was what God thought we could handle?

So the hundreds that died in this tornado just couldn't handle it? And the loved one left behind to grieve over dead family members could?

That is a very interesting interpretation. Whatever gets you through the day I guess.

Maybe that is why you put the "if" in your last statement. Not sure

[SoonerNate]

God is love 21.

[2121Sooner]

Most definitely

[Jammin']

21, you should stick to just reading my posts. I make the most sense of anyone here...in my head anyway.

[XingTheRubicon]

God is a brilliant, senseless maniac.


Of all the bikers that are hit and killed by cars, and bikerfox is not one of them, should pretty much prove that.

[2121Sooner]

Paypalonahill


I am gonna stick to reading the spec......it is hilarious

[soonerchk]

God is a brilliant, senseless maniac.


Of all the bikers that are hit and killed by cars, and bikerfox is not one of them, should pretty much prove that.


/close thread, we're done here.

[soonerboomer93]

There are no athiests in a fox hole

[2121Sooner]

God is a brilliant, senseless maniac.


Of all the bikers that are hit and killed by cars, and bikerfox is not one of them, should pretty much prove that.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6bGS0Vu54iM/SEWMQeg-UWI/AAAAAAAAAgw/UykrI1xOG84/s400/art.bikerace.cnn.jpg

[The Maestro]

There are no athiests in a fox hole

Or prisons. Lowest population of atheism is in prison. Realism sucks when that is all you have to look forward to.

[OhU1]

There are no athiests in a fox hole

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Corporal_Patrick_Tillman.jpg/190px-Corporal_Patrick_Tillman.jpg

[sanantoniosooner]

My personal experience doesn't line up with most of your views.

[picasso]

I just know I have seen christians pray to god time after time like he is santa claus. I have been to prayer meetings where everyone broke out their laundry list of needs.

--Help Bobby get a job
--Help Johnny to stop drinking
--Help the cancer to go away in Aunt Bea

If "Thy will be done" is it...prayer is pointless.

Constant prayer is the best. I start the day praying protection over my kids.

I think God probably likes being relied upon.

[sanantoniosooner]

"Thy will be done" is an acknowledgment that His plan is better than my plan and I trust Him.

[JohnnyMack]

"Thy will be done" is an acknowledgment that His plan is better than my plan and I trust Him.

Are you talking about Bob Stoops?

[jk the sooner fan]

i always love it when the non-believers spend so much time in a thread about christianity

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

i always love it when the non-believers spend so much time in a thread about christianity

"God forbid" there a differing opinions thrown around :rolleyes:

[jk the sooner fan]

"God forbid" there a differing opinions thrown around :rolleyes:

far from my point

i've been around here long enough to know that the agnostics/atheists always come with the exact same "differing opinion"....God doesnt exist, and for the most part you're all stupid for believing so

yes, thats a differing opinion worth discussing ad nauseum

if you are convinced he doesnt exist - why do these threads bring out such angst?

yermom will be along anytime now to tell us how oppressed he is in his life by Christians

[3rdgensooner]

i always love it when the non-believers spend so much time in a thread about christianityI'm not sure the OP intended this to be a thread about Christianity.

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

far from my point

i've been around here long enough to know that the agnostics/atheists always come with the exact same "differing opinion"....God doesnt exist, and for the most part you're all stupid for believing so

yes, thats a differing opinion worth discussing ad nauseum

if you are convinced he doesnt exist - why do these threads bring out such angst?

yermom will be along anytime now to tell us how oppressed he is in his life by Christians

I have never said anyone on here is stupid for believing in God.

I do know that people all over the world cause all sorts of problems all in the name of God/Allah..etc ie. terrorist, Westboro

[soonerchk]

I'm not sure the OP intended this to be a thread about Christianity.

I'm pretty sure it was intended to be a thread disputing all faith, but I'm just a dumb Catholic so what do I know?

[oudanny]

I tend to believe #2 but really, if prayer brings peace, comfort, hope or whatever to someone then does it matter. I try not to get too lost in the theology.

[sooner_kaufy]

Psalm 14:1

[The Maestro]

Constant prayer is the best. I start the day praying protection over my kids.

I think God probably likes being relied upon.

So God is insecure and needs the ego boost? Verbal "fist bumps" make him pop his collar or what?

[The Maestro]

i always love it when the non-believers spend so much time in a thread about christianity

I started the thread and I have spent years of my life in church...Sunday mornings, Sunday nights, Wednesday nights...literal years. So as for me I think I have a pretty good grasp on both sides.

[The Maestro]

I tend to believe #2 but really, if prayer brings peace, comfort, hope or whatever to someone then does it matter. I try not to get too lost in the theology.

I can respect that...I was just trying to offer up thoughts on prayers in the case or during a natural disaster. Because if God is the "blessed controller of all things" I am pretty sure he is aware of the tornado and either caused it or allowed it...so the "They will be done" point means...pray if it makes you feel better, but it ain't gonna change things.

[sooner_kaufy]

God IS in control of all things, but he does not punish sinners on Earth. If this were the case, then we would all be destroyed, for "all have sinned and all fall short of the glory of God.(Romans 3:23)" Christ was sent as a sacrifice for our sins, His blood washes our sins away as long as we are obedient to God's Word and remain faithful. The Bible does teach that our faith will be tested continually as long as we are on this earth. Things such as natural disasters occur to test our faith in God, not to make us question his existence. One must go to God's Word(the Bible) for answers to all questions. The Bible is the only authority, we are not to ask "man" what he believes, but instead search God's Word for what is right and good.

[The Maestro]

God IS in control of all things.

The initial point of this entire thread.

Tell that to Mr. and Mrs. Hamil of Piedmont today. Better bring a helmet.

[OhU1]

far from my point

i've been around here long enough to know that the agnostics/atheists always come with the exact same "differing opinion"....God doesnt exist, and for the most part you're all stupid for believing so


I know few atheists who make the claim "God does not exist". We are not the ones defining a god then claiming that god does not exist. A more accurate general view is we do not accept or believe the claim that a God does exists. For some reason people can't seem to grasp this distinction.

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. Agnostics and atheists do not believe that claims of the existance of a god has met the burden of proof.

[sooner_kaufy]

No doubt a trying time in their lives, and no doubt an undying faith in God will be the only thing that will confort them. Their faith has been tested as well as those all over the country, not just this week, but since the beginning of time. I have not seen, nor heard, one person effected by these disasters cursing or denouncing God. If anything, they are fully aware of the awesome power of His creation.

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

The initial point of this entire thread.

Tell that to Mr. and Mrs. Hamil of Piedmont today. Better bring a helmet.

Ya I agree. I'm sure some person saying "Well, I guess it was just his/her time" Or "God needed her/him more than we did" would make a grieving family feel much better

Bull F'n Shat

[JohnnyMack]

No doubt a trying time in their lives, and no doubt an undying faith in God will be the only thing that will confort them. Their faith has been tested as well as those all over the country, not just this week, but since the beginning of time. I have not seen, nor heard, one person effected by these disasters cursing or denouncing God. If anything, they are fully aware of the awesome power of His creation.

A God that smites 3 year olds? That's an amazing deity you worship.

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

No doubt a trying time in their lives, and no doubt an undying faith in God will be the only thing that will confort them. Their faith has been tested as well as those all over the country, not just this week, but since the beginning of time. I have not seen, nor heard, one person effected by these disasters cursing or denouncing God. If anything, they are fully aware of the awesome power of His creation.

Sorry, but the only comfort I would have in that situation is if I had my child back.

People don't curse God because they probably don't believe in God or they don't associate tragedy with God. If something bad happens in my life I take responsibility and wonder what I could have done differently and not what would have happened had I prayed more.

[2121Sooner]

I know few atheists who make the claim "God does not exist". We are not the ones defining a god then claiming that god does not exist. A more accurate general view is we do not accept or believe the claim that a God does exists. For some reason people can't seem to grasp this distinction.

The burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. Agnostics and atheists do not believe that claims of the existance of a god has met the burden of proof.

http://www.godlessbastard.com/images/Img339.jpg

[Caboose]

Prayer has no effect on the prayed for.
Prayer is what people do to make themselves feel better about being unable or unwilling to help others.

[sanantoniosooner]

As a part of a ministry that prays for people often I will disagree with the value and effect assessment of those who don't have a clue or truly want to understand. I'll talk privately if someone has genuine questions.

[Oldnslo]

Since I'm not a Christian, my views may differ from yours, but it seems that you've left out an option, Maestro. How about, "God, please grant me strength to meet this challenge." That's right up there with my favorite, "God, please let me be worthy of the blessings you've given me."

[The Maestro]

24,000 children under 5 die each day.

Is God unwilling to save them, unable to or not real? How can it be that God is love, God is omniscient, God is all powerful, but in this case, he is just downright mysterious and doesn't have to explain himself to man cause we cannot fathom his ways and plans? He was all about miracles and showing himself to be real 2,000 years ago but apparently got too tired of that showmanship and replaced it with blind faith with no proof.

If they only had youtube in the Bible times!!!!

[sanantoniosooner]

I see miracles all the time. My faith is not blind by any means. He is real in my daily life.

[Caboose]

I see miracles all the time. My faith is not blind by any means. He is real in my daily life.

You see miracles all the time? How about some examples?

[1890MilesToNorman]

This thread is pissing me off, if it weren't for the forethought of putting in a storm shelter I would have lost 4 members of my family on Tuesday, including my mother. You can debate this all you want at a distance but miracles did happen in Piedmont Oklahoma this week.

[The Maestro]

I see miracles all the time. My faith is not blind by any means. He is real in my daily life.

You've opened up a box you cannot prove now. But feel free to try.

Something is real if you can use your senses to experience it. So give examples of seeing, touching or hearing God. Not in your "spirit"...cause Jared Lee Loughner in Tucson, AZ, hears those kinda voices, too.

Miracles are not lives being changed, alcoholics giving up booze, a sexually abused person feeling freed from their attacks, etc. Give Biblical type examples. Lame walking, blind seeing, deaf hearing, amputees growing limbs, mountains moving, etc. Fire away...we all await with baited breath of your examples so we can now believe and join you in the realism of Christianity.

[soonerchk]

You see miracles all the time? How about some examples?

A friend of mine and his son survived the Joplin tornado even though their house took a direct hit. Prove that it's not a miracle.

[The Maestro]

This thread is pissing me off, if it weren't for the forethought of putting in a storm shelter I would have lost 4 members of my family on Tuesday, including my mother. You can debate this all you want at a distance but miracles did happen in Piedmont Oklahoma this week.

Not sure what you are mad about...great to hear about your family and I am happy for their safety. As for the miracle in your situation...agreed. And congrats to you for the miracle. God did not bring a shield over them as the twister come close. Your decision awhile back is to be applauded.

[The Maestro]

miracle - an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

More people survive direct hits in tornadoes than don't. Just sayin'.

[Thaumaturge]

A friend of mine and his son survived the Joplin tornado even though their house took a direct hit. Prove that it's not a miracle.

Good point. The people who didn't survive their direct hits must not have had good enough prayers.

[soonerchk]

Good point. The people who didn't survive their direct hits must not have had good enough prayers.

Yes, that's exactly what I said!!!!

[Thaumaturge]

Yes, that's exactly what I said!!!!

Then prove it's not a miracle when little children die.

You can't do it.

[Chuck Bao]

The Buddhist in me thinks that life is suffering and fleeting. No one ever promised that we will be without hardship and heartbreak if we are faithful. Don't gloat during the good times and don't despair during the bad times. At all times, show compassion and offer help to those who are in need.

The Baptist in me thinks that life is a blessing from God however short and painful. Again, there are no promises, except for eternal life with our Father in Heaven. I am convinced that faith and prayer do work, but not always as we would like and hope. It does sustain us, both for those offering prayers and those on the receiving end, under the most trying of circumstances.

That defines our soul, not our bodies. I think both Buddhists and Baptists can agree on that.

[sanantoniosooner]

I said I'd talk privately and I will. But I'm not here to get anyone else to believe. I will explain why I do.

I'm also not here so that you can make sport out of something I hold dear. That's why I'll talk privately.

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

A friend of mine and his son survived the Joplin tornado even though their house took a direct hit. Prove that it's not a miracle.

Luck and miracles are vastly different

[The Maestro]

No need to ruffle feathers. We are all gonna believe what we are gonna believe. By the time we find out who is right, it's gonna be too late to gloat!

Hurry up, football season.

[soonerchk]

I said I'd talk privately and I will. But I'm not here to get anyone else to believe. I will explain why I do.

I'm also not here so that you can make sport out of something I hold dear. That's why I'll talk privately.

Yeah, I think I'm going to agree with this and walk slowly away from this thread, hopefully without getting sucked back in.

[Mongo]

The Buddhist in me....

what's his name?

:D

[Chuck Bao]

what's his name?

:D

You're getting super, extra negative karma points for that one.

But, it was funny and I laughed. ;)

[swardboy]

But didn't he leave God's side in heaven for the sole purpose of dying on the cross? So then why was he asking to get out of the gig?

I don't believe it was fear or doubt about His purpose. I believe it was the fact that from now on, the eternal fate of mankind would be bound up in the cross; what they decide about Jesus. He would become the dividing line between heaven and hell. What a weight. What a "cup". But God said "No." If there were another way to salvation, then God would be the supreme sadist of the universe for telling Jesus there is no other way to everlasting life but through Him. Or as Peter said "There is no other name given among men by which we must be saved." How would it feel to know peoples' eternity is determined by their belief in you?

[2121Sooner]

Chk, how scared sh!tless was your friend when that nader' hit?

That is a story they will be telling all their life

[2121Sooner]

I said I'd talk privately and I will. But I'm not here to get anyone else to believe. I will explain why I do.

I'm also not here so that you can make sport out of something I hold dear. That's why I'll talk privately.

Come on......everyone sing along

Hide it inside a PM?

NO!!!!! You gotta let it shine!!!!!

[SanJoaquinSooner]

This thread is pissing me off, if it weren't for the forethought of putting in a storm shelter I would have lost 4 members of my family on Tuesday, including my mother. You can debate this all you want at a distance but miracles did happen in Piedmont Oklahoma this week.

My mom's side of family is from Piedmont, so I get extended family e-mails...

>> FYI: I am Linda ******* and my daughter, Deborah got hit
>> with the
>> Piedmont tornado. They are fine and were in the cellar. This is
>> the
>> second
>> time a tornado has hit them there. I told them it's time to live
>> somewhere
>> else..

[Caboose]

No need to ruffle feathers. We are all gonna believe what we are gonna believe. By the time we find out who is right, it's gonna be too late to gloat!

Hurry up, football season.

I think the time for ruffling feathers is long over due. Society as a whole is being held back by people who make it their life work to convince others to believe in supernatural BS that they know themselves isn't true.

[soonervegas]

#3 if I had to chose....

My best guess....

There may be a creator that put things in motion, but it is not involved in the detailed lives of us ants.

Religion is people trying to define what we cannot....at the end of the day I have no clue and neither does anyone....

[The Maestro]

I think the time for ruffling feathers is long over due. Society as a whole is being held back by people who make it their life work to convince others to believe in supernatural BS that they know themselves isn't true.

I somewhat agree as someone who has been on the other side. It sucks that asking for one shred of tangible proof that isn't spirit in nature and not something that can be seen, touched, heard or experienced without the thought and spirit world isn't asking for too much. But changing someone's mind is not going to happen. It has to be like me...a personal choice based on research, asking questions, and doing some homework on life, evidence and experience. It's like trying to change someone's mind on abortion...it just doesn't happen.

The typical christian isn't causing any more problems in society than a non-christian. The only thing that bothers me is how they think they are superior, better, or need to pray for us and our lost souls. It turns out to be a battle of "poor lost person. May God help them so they don't burn in hell." My camp says, "Poor Christian and their belief in some make believe world that diminishes the value of this life for a hope in a better world that ain't gonna happen when you die."

[KantoSooner]

I, Amun, the ONE GOD, say to all you other monotheists that you're Johnny come latelys and stole your holy stories from me.

And I'm NOT amused.

<Waiting. In the afterlife. With a heavenly axe handle. And a fierce, Old Testament kind of scowl.>

<Sounds of a brief scuffle. Something that sounds like, "**** Off! Gilgamesh! You and your buddy got forbidden fruit from a snake in a garden 1000 years before the Jews wrote it down? Well, 'woop de doo'. I had tablets from Heaven waaaaaaaay before you did!>

"Do not listen to pretenders. Mitra and Zarathustra? Lyin' bitches! Me! I'm the ONE."

[jk the sooner fan]

Yeah, I think I'm going to agree with this and walk slowly away from this thread, hopefully without getting sucked back in.

solid advice - the God haters on this board enjoy this sort of thread, its pointless

[The Maestro]

solid advice - the God haters on this board enjoy this sort of thread, its pointless

God haters? That's the problem with your analysis I eluded to. No one is hating on God. Me? God could be out there. The world is vast and incredible. No one can explain it all. I can say I do not believe in a theistic God that loves me, hears my prayers and is who John Blake prayed to for help in OU's 1996 OT win over Texas. Could there be an incredible creator? Sure. But the God you believe in I don't believe in...so no worries--I don't hate someone I don't believe in. That would be like hating the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the future of Vince Young University...they just aren't true to us...based on evidence YOU or anyone else has not provided.

I don't hate Jesus, either. I just don't believe he saved me from my sins by dying and raising from the dead.

[jk the sooner fan]

God haters? That's the problem with your analysis I eluded to. No one is hating on God. Me? God could be out there. The world is vast and incredible. No one can explain it all. I can say I do not believe in a theistic God that loves me, hears my prayers and is who John Blake prayed to for help in OU's 1996 OT win over Texas. Could there be an incredible creator? Sure. But the God you believe in I don't believe in...so no worries--I don't hate someone I don't believe in. That would be like hating the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the future of Vince Young University...they just aren't true to us...based on evidence YOU or anyone else has not provided.

I don't hate Jesus, either. I just don't believe he saved me from my sins by dying and raising from the dead.

1. i wasnt specifically referring to you
2. god haters shouldnt be taken quite so literally
c. carry on

[JohnnyMack]

I like this "new" Ken's pizza from Mazzio's. Takes me back.

[King Fuzzy]

Did anyone else watch the press conference for the kid in Piedmont?

http://newsok.com/body-of-missing-piedmont-boy-found/article/3571531?custom_click=lead_story_title

The father decided to start talking like a cartoon character at the 1m07s and I lost my mind.

I don't know why it was necessary to would put someone through or let someone put themselves through a moment like that. Pick someone who isn't emotionally destroyed to make a few comments and move on. It's a miracle that his voice went that high, and no one can prove it wasn't.

[sanantoniosooner]

Caboose- It's completely asinine to suggest that everyone that peddles the supernatural knows it's fake. You can call me a lot of things, but I genuinely believe what I profess.

Maestro- You talk about this issue like there are only two sides and you've been on both. That isn't accurate at all. At a minimum, and this is simplifying it a lot, there are at least 3 sides. Those who don't believe. Those who profess to believe, but don't have a personal encounter with God that supports what they've read in the bible. And those that believe and also have personal experiences that confirm what the bible says.

You have obviously have experience with the first two. My experience has been with the last two. I've been religious with no substance to back it up. I've given up on a religious ritual and had a lifestyle shift that believes in the supernatural, and even depends on it.

Since I have no takers on the personal discussion, I have to conclude that people just like to argue and don't really want to hear what personal experiences I've had that compel me to believe that the bible is also true.

And I'm far from ashamed to share my beliefs. I've just been around long enough to recognize when it's a waste of my time.

I will share some specific miracles that I've seen with my own eyes knowing full well that people will call BS. You've seen nothing and believe in nothing. I've seen the power of God and believe in the power of God.

I've cut my sons cast off when a broken wrist was healed instantaneously. It was the same day the cast was put on and he played in a tennis tournament, pain free, only 2 days later. (easily explained by skeptics I'm sure)

I've seen a woman with 4 ruptured disks in her back straighten up immediately and have complete mobility. (no I don't have documentation. I'll believe what I saw, you can not believe what you didn't see)

My son prayed for a lady that was completely deaf in Mexico and her hearing was restored. (I know it only counts if it happened in the states...)

These are 3 that will be totally rejected by those that don't believe and will be appreciated by those that do. I could give you many many more, but there isn't any point........is there?

[JohnnyMack]

Caboose- It's completely asinine to suggest that everyone that peddles the supernatural knows it's fake. You can call me a lot of things, but I genuinely believe what I profess.

Maestro- You talk about this issue like there are only two sides and you've been on both. That isn't accurate at all. At a minimum, and this is simplifying it a lot, there are at least 3 sides. Those who don't believe. Those who profess to believe, but don't have a personal encounter with God that supports what they've read in the bible. And those that believe and also have personal experiences that confirm what the bible says.

You have obviously have experience with the first two. My experience has been with the last two. I've been religious with no substance to back it up. I've given up on a religious ritual and had a lifestyle shift that believes in the supernatural, and even depends on it.

Since I have no takers on the personal discussion, I have to conclude that people just like to argue and don't really want to hear what personal experiences I've had that compel me to believe that the bible is also true.

And I'm far from ashamed to share my beliefs. I've just been around long enough to recognize when it's a waste of my time.

I will share some specific miracles that I've seen with my own eyes knowing full well that people will call BS. You've seen nothing and believe in nothing. I've seen the power of God and believe in the power of God.

I've cut my sons cast off when a broken wrist was healed instantaneously. It was the same day the cast was put on and he played in a tennis tournament, pain free, only 2 days later. (easily explained by skeptics I'm sure)

I've seen a woman with 4 ruptured disks in her back straighten up immediately and have complete mobility. (no I don't have documentation. I'll believe what I saw, you can not believe what you didn't see)

My son prayed for a lady that was completely deaf in Mexico and her hearing was restored. (I know it only counts if it happened in the states...)

These are 3 that will be totally rejected by those that don't believe and will be appreciated by those that do. I could give you many many more, but there isn't any point........is there?

Why would you cut a cast off your sons broken wrist? Sounds pretty negligent to me. Where's that number to DHS?

[sanantoniosooner]

Why would you cut a cast off your sons broken wrist? Sounds pretty negligent to me. Where's that number to DHS?

because he asked me to do it. He believed he was healed.

[2121Sooner]

Pope John Paul is said to have performed miracles and they are gonna try and make him a Saint.

He died of a urinary tract infection. He had less magical powers than cranberry juice.

[JohnnyMack]

Pope John Paul is said to have performed miracles and they are gonna try and make him a Saint.

He died of a urinary tract infection. He had less magical powers than cranberry juice.

sas is gonna lap John Paul on the way to sainthood.

[sanantoniosooner]

Pope John Paul is said to have performed miracles and they are gonna try and make him a Saint.

He died of a urinary tract infection. He had less magical powers than cranberry juice.

Believe it, or NOT(I'm betting NOT), I know a guy in Tulsa that has prayed for several deaf people and they've been healed, and yet he remains deaf to this day. Hasn't shaken his faith though.

I don't know why he sees people healed and hasn't experienced it himself. He doesn't either. You can let it stop you or you can keep going.

[JohnnyMack]

Tell the truth, are you Oral Roberts? I thought you died?

[The Maestro]

I was going with Benny Hinn.

Make an amputee grow an arm, videotape it, and I will give 10% of my income for the rest of my life and tell everyone I know about the power of God working through you or whoever pulls it off.

[sanantoniosooner]

You wouldn't even believe it if it happened.

fact.

[2121Sooner]

Tell the truth, are you Oral Roberts? I thought you died?


I was going with Benny Hinn.

off.

I am leaning more this way on SAS

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Sw4XAl1XV0g/RnHY_2dsMEI/AAAAAAAAAF0/VXtCsJcbx5s/s400/78748.jpg

[sanantoniosooner]

see........awaaaaaaaayyyy we goooooooooooooo!!!!

This is why we cant have nice things around here :D

[2121Sooner]

Come on SAS, you know you laughed

[sanantoniosooner]

Come on SAS, you know you laughed

It's hilarious.

And it's also the reason discussion like this will never accomplish anything positive.

[The Maestro]

Like I said, what time is kickoff some 97 days from now????

[2121Sooner]

That surprises me.

I usually find a lot of stimulating spiritual conversation here.

[87sooner]

But didn't he leave God's side in heaven for the sole purpose of dying on the cross? So then why was he asking to get out of the gig?

He was a man.

[87sooner]

Prayer has no effect on the prayed for.
Prayer is what people do to make themselves feel better about being unable or unwilling to help others.

good theory....
do you have proof?

[87sooner]

I think the time for ruffling feathers is long over due. Society as a whole is being held back by people who make it their life work to convince others to believe in supernatural BS that they know themselves isn't true.

could you give me some examples of how "society is being held back"?

[Caboose]

Believe it, or NOT(I'm betting NOT), I know a guy in Tulsa that has prayed for several deaf people and they've been healed, and yet he remains deaf to this day. Hasn't shaken his faith though.

I don't know why he sees people healed and hasn't experienced it himself. He doesn't either. You can let it stop you or you can keep going.

This is some of the dumbest sh!t I have ever heard. I will accept that you aren't intentionally dishonest about the tales you tell, you are just extremely gullible and naive.

[87sooner]

You've actually asked a very deep theological question. One many Christians and theologians have thought through.

#2 is the closest from my personal opinion. I do believe God intervenes in the affairs of men. Only not nearly as much as we'd like to think.

It seems some of my fellow Christians think prayer is like a magic wand that can get God to do what you want. The Bible says so in their mind (it does not)

It seems to me that God created the laws of nature and spun the world, putting it in motion so to speak. What happens, happens. It seems He only intervenes at rare moments decided by Him.

What, when or why that occurs. I don't claim to know.


is prayer your spare tire or your steering wheel?

[87sooner]

So he gave us the free will and then is shocked when we fail?

And so the magic fruit two people ate determines the demise of all descendants thereafter?

And the fix is a god who sacrifices himself to himself to save the world from the punishment he himself was planning to dole out?

My head hurts...

maybe He should have asked YOU for your plan when He made the world...
yours isp rolly alot better....:rolleyes:

[87sooner]

But what if that faith ISN'T REAL????

I have determined there are two kinds of people. Some people want hope and some people want truth, regardless of how harsh the reality may be. Mark Twain echoes my sentiment--"Faith is believing in something you know ain't true." Fair enough. I have friends who chastise me and say, "What else is there?" The truth...


if mark twain said that ...that's all i need to know about him..




And someone said "some people need faith". Exactly. Some people need to break out their Poison casette tapes and listen to "Gimme Something to Believe In" to get by. Just because you need something doesn't make it fact. Kids need Santy Claus, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny...doesn't make them real.

Arguments that explain everything...explain nothing.

that person is an arrogant sob with a superiority complex....

[87sooner]

Eh, I could make an argument about once saved, always saved which pisses off relatives and friends...but they have claimed it before.

The burden of proof is on you. You have no evidence of God. No communication with him and the only evidence is a book written in the infancy of existence about the world...and has a lot of copycat stories from books written before then about virgin births and people raised from the dead.

Give me proof and I will believe. You have never seen God, heard God or touched God...anymore than a Muslim, Hindu, Mormon or any other believer of a God has.

I think it is all a great story and would be awesome...but I can't make myself believe in something with no proof. People's minds work different ways.

faith does not come from "proof"....
the bible tells of people that had "proof" but no faith...

romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

[sanantoniosooner]

This is some of the dumbest sh!t I have ever heard. I will accept that you aren't intentionally dishonest about the tales you tell, you are just extremely gullible and naive.

I wouldn't trade what I have for what you have. Call it whatever you want.

[87sooner]

You've opened up a box you cannot prove now. But feel free to try.

Something is real if you can use your senses to experience it. So give examples of seeing, touching or hearing God. Not in your "spirit"...cause Jared Lee Loughner in Tucson, AZ, hears those kinda voices, too.

Miracles are not lives being changed, alcoholics giving up booze, a sexually abused person feeling freed from their attacks, etc. Give Biblical type examples. Lame walking, blind seeing, deaf hearing, amputees growing limbs, mountains moving, etc. Fire away...we all await with baited breath of your examples so we can now believe and join you in the realism of Christianity.


tell that to the alcoholic...

[87sooner]

I somewhat agree as someone who has been on the other side. It sucks that asking for one shred of tangible proof that isn't spirit in nature and not something that can be seen, touched, heard or experienced without the thought and spirit world isn't asking for too much. But changing someone's mind is not going to happen. It has to be like me...a personal choice based on research, asking questions, and doing some homework on life, evidence and experience.


again....that's not how faith works....

"research, asking questions, and doing some homework on life, evidence "....does not lead to belief/faith...






It's like trying to change someone's mind on abortion...it just doesn't happen.


you're right.....if you believe...God reveals the truth....
if you don't believe...you see nothing wrong with abortion....and i can't change your mind....




The typical christian isn't causing any more problems in society than a non-christian. The only thing that bothers me is how they think they are superior, better, or need to pray for us and our lost souls. It turns out to be a battle of "poor lost person. May God help them so they don't burn in hell." My camp says, "Poor Christian and their belief in some make believe world that diminishes the value of this life for a hope in a better world that ain't gonna happen when you die."


LOL....
yeah...the non-believers are the humble ones in this thread...:rolleyes:

[2121Sooner]

good theory....
do you have proof?

That is the beauty of his religious belief............he doesn't need proof.

[JohnnyMack]

I wouldn't trade what I have

Mental novacaine?

[87sooner]

You've opened up a box you cannot prove now. But feel free to try.

Something is real if you can use your senses to experience it. So give examples of seeing, touching or hearing God. Not in your "spirit"...cause Jared Lee Loughner in Tucson, AZ, hears those kinda voices, too.

Miracles are not lives being changed, alcoholics giving up booze, a sexually abused person feeling freed from their attacks, etc. Give Biblical type examples. Lame walking, blind seeing, deaf hearing, amputees growing limbs, mountains moving, etc. Fire away...we all await with baited breath of your examples so we can now believe and join you in the realism of Christianity.

what do you call it when someone asks for something they KNOW doesn't exist?

[87sooner]

That is the beauty of his religious belief............he doesn't need proof.


See what I did there?

apparently he does....

[King Fuzzy]

could you give me some examples of how "society is being held back"?

Religious ideology inspired attacks on the teaching of advanced scientific principles such as evolution leaves children underprepared for college coursework, and undermines societal appreciation of scientific expertise.

Religious ideology prevents people from accepting the facts of global climate disruption, undermines societal appreciation of scientific expertise.

Religious ideology inspires dehumanizing othering of other religions and cultures, allows widespread ignorant hostilities for vast populations based on the actions of a few people.

Religious ideology allows people to pass off responsibility for global (larger than self) challenge to the hands of some distant supreme being in lieu of taking action to help.

Religious ideology creates the sense of superiority as chosen by god, inspires hubris for the struggles of people unlike them.

Religious ideology delays the imparative of making the world a better place since it is supposedly controlled by the maker anyway and the real place to worry about is some eternal bliss land that is too awesome to break.

Religious ideology encourages paternalism and male dominance which creates an environment that fosters female oppression.

[Blue]

Religious ideology inspired attacks on the teaching of advanced scientific principles such as evolution leaves children underprepared for college coursework, and undermines societal appreciation of scientific expertise.

Religious ideology prevents people from accepting the facts of global climate disruption, undermines societal appreciation of scientific expertise.

Religious ideology inspires dehumanizing othering of other religions and cultures, allows widespread ignorant hostilities for vast populations based on the actions of a few people.

Religious ideology allows people to pass off responsibility for global (larger than self) challenge to the hands of some distant supreme being in lieu of taking action to help.

Religious ideology creates the sense of superiority as chosen by god, inspires hubris for the struggles of people unlike them.

Religious ideology delays the imparative of making the world a better place since it is supposedly controlled by the maker anyway and the real place to worry about is some eternal bliss land that is too awesome to break.

Religious ideology encourages paternalism and male dominance which creates an environment that fosters female oppression.

Because the world would be a paradise if everyone was an atheist. :rolleyes:

Your liberal Utopia is a long way away.

[sanantoniosooner]

Jesus is such a thug.

[87sooner]

Religious ideology inspired attacks on the teaching of advanced scientific principles such as evolution leaves children underprepared for college coursework, and undermines societal appreciation of scientific expertise.


hogwash...
christian believers have a great appreciation for "scientific expertise"......the knowledge of the complexity of God's creation is not only fascinating....but a testament to the power and intelligence of the Creator.
the attacks on ONE "scientific principle" in no way leave anyone unprepared for college coursework...that's simply a lie...
are there other "scientific principles" that are being "attacked"?




Religious ideology prevents people from accepting the facts of global climate disruption, undermines societal appreciation of scientific expertise.

again...hogwash...
christian believers believe in responsible use of the Creation...
what we don't believe in is lies by those seeing power and control over humanity...




Religious ideology inspires dehumanizing othering of other religions and cultures, allows widespread ignorant hostilities for vast populations based on the actions of a few people.

some religions do this....
christianity does not encourage "hostilities" towards anyone...




Religious ideology allows people to pass off responsibility for global (larger than self) challenge to the hands of some distant supreme being in lieu of taking action to help.

not sure what you mean by "global challenge"




Religious ideology creates the sense of superiority as chosen by god, inspires hubris for the struggles of people unlike them.

Religious ideology delays the imparative of making the world a better place since it is supposedly controlled by the maker anyway and the real place to worry about is some eternal bliss land that is too awesome to break.

Religious ideology encourages paternalism and male dominance which creates an environment that fosters female oppression.

christianity? no
islam? yes

[King Fuzzy]

You win one Internet. Congratulations.

[2121Sooner]

Jesus is such a thug.

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/jesus-gun.jpg

[ouwasp]

Well, I saw the title of the thread, and scanned the first few lines of the first post... figured out the gist of it. If the thread has been hijacked, I'm not aware of it.

But the original post (I think) is something probably all of us have at least had cross our minds...

One observation is that God is sovereign. Psalm 115:13 declares Our God is in heaven, He does whatever He pleases.

That opens up a whole plethora of questions in itself.

But another Biblical illustration is when Jesus was responding to news of another disaster...in Luke Chapter 13 Jesus mentioned 18 men who had died in what was some sort of natural disaster when a tower fell in Siloam. His point was their death wasn't a measure of their righteousness (or lack thereof), what mattered was how spiritually prepared they were to enter eternity.

There are NO guarantees about this present life. Proverbs 27:1 Do not boast about tomorrow, For you do not know what a day may bring forth.

There is nothing wrong with praying for deliverance. But we may not receive the answer we seek. Maybe the cup will not pass from us.Witness Christ in Gethsamane.

If I escape sudden death someday, no doubt some well-meaning person will say "God was with him." Fine. But say I meet sudden death. Then I know it will be said by others "He is with God." That's good too. :) Even better, according to Paul in Philippians 1:21.

[Blue]

Well, I saw the title of the thread, and scanned the first few lines of the first post... figured out the gist of it. If the thread has been hijacked, I'm not aware of it.

But the original post (I think) is something probably all of us have at least had cross our minds...

One observation is that God is sovereign. Psalm 115:13 declares Our God is in heaven, He does whatever He pleases.

That opens up a whole plethora of questions in itself.

But another Biblical illustration is when Jesus was responding to news of another disaster...in Luke Chapter 13 Jesus mentioned 18 men who had died in what was some sort of natural disaster when a tower fell in Siloam. His point was their death wasn't a measure of their righteousness (or lack thereof), what mattered was how spiritually prepared they were to enter eternity.

There are NO guarantees about this present life. Proverbs 27:1 Do not boast about tomorrow, For you do not know what a day may bring forth.

There is nothing wrong with praying for deliverance. But we may not receive the answer we seek. Maybe the cup will not pass from us.Witness Christ in Gethsamane.

If I escape sudden death someday, no doubt some well-meaning person will say "God was with him." Fine. But say I meet sudden death. Then I know it will be said by others "He is with God." That's good too. :) Even better, according to Paul in Philippians 1:21.

QFT.

[olevetonahill]

WGAF?:pop:

[picasso]

So God is insecure and needs the ego boost? Verbal "fist bumps" make him pop his collar or what?

Insecure? That's a bit silly. Do you want your kids to love you and look to you for guidance and such?

[picasso]

You see miracles all the time? How about some examples?

My wife, son and I last may, 2010. We pulled out onto HWY 20 near Skiatook lake. Over the hill came a car going so fast I didn't see it until he was behind us. He swerved a bit, went around us, went off the road into the trees. We pulled over and I got to pray for the guy as he lay on the shoulder of the road.

Turns out another guy had been following him for 30 miles trying to get the OHP to catch him. He was going in excess of 100mph.

The fact that he didn't hit us coming over the hill was a miracle.

My life is chock full of answered prayers. And unanswered prayers.
I'm talking detailed ones that happened just in the nick of time.

It's all in God's timing. The age old question is why does he allow evil to exist.

[picasso]

No need to ruffle feathers. We are all gonna believe what we are gonna believe. By the time we find out who is right, it's gonna be too late to gloat!

Hurry up, football season.

Who in the hell wants to gloat? Why don't you just pray and ask God into your life? He's not going to just walk in the door and say hi.
And while you're at it go ahead and invite the Holy Spirit in. He's cool too.

We aren't saying that the folks who died in the tornado weren't praying enough. Try to use the deeper parts of your brain.

[picasso]

Religious ideology inspired attacks on the teaching of advanced scientific principles such as evolution leaves children underprepared for college coursework, and undermines societal appreciation of scientific expertise.

Religious ideology prevents people from accepting the facts of global climate disruption, undermines societal appreciation of scientific expertise.

Religious ideology inspires dehumanizing othering of other religions and cultures, allows widespread ignorant hostilities for vast populations based on the actions of a few people.

Religious ideology allows people to pass off responsibility for global (larger than self) challenge to the hands of some distant supreme being in lieu of taking action to help.

Religious ideology creates the sense of superiority as chosen by god, inspires hubris for the struggles of people unlike them.

Religious ideology delays the imparative of making the world a better place since it is supposedly controlled by the maker anyway and the real place to worry about is some eternal bliss land that is too awesome to break.

Religious ideology encourages paternalism and male dominance which creates an environment that fosters female oppression.

You are using a very broad brush on religion. I'm guessing you really don't know **** about several denominations.

[KantoSooner]

could you give me some examples of how "society is being held back"?

We had polio eliminated. Then Muslim Clerics (Men of Gawd, according to Jimmy Carter, Ex-President, Nuclear Engineer, Fervent Baptist and Raging Lunatic. Proof that all can coexist in the same skull.) decided that Allah (Arabic for 'God') had told them that the vaccine was a plot by America to make the next generation infertile.
Voila. Religion condemns the world to another 25-50 years of a dread disease.
Thanks, people of faith!
I mean, really, thanks a bundle.

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

I said this during the last religious thread


Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

- John Lennon

[XingTheRubicon]

Imagine no John Lennon.


- God

[OhU1]

Imagine no John Lennon.


- God

Chapman is God? :eek:

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

Imagine no John Lennon.


- God

Kill anyone who doesn't believe in the same stuff as us


Sincerely,

Hitler & Al Queda

[sanantoniosooner]

"We all live in a yellow submarine"

Deep stuff indeed.

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

"We all live in a yellow submarine"

Deep stuff indeed.


Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; / And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; / And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; / And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; / And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias; / And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; / And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; / And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; / And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; / And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: / And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel; / And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor; / And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud; / And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob; / And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

This verse changed my life
:rolleyes:

[sanantoniosooner]

This verse changed my life
:rolleyes:

for the worse apparently.

Since you don't believe in God, perhaps you can get some counseling from another source?

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

for the worse apparently.

Since you don't believe in God, perhaps you can get some counseling from another source?

Im doing great. Church made me a really sad and intolerant person.

[sanantoniosooner]

Im doing great. Church made me a really sad and intolerant person.

Church did the same for me.

I'm glad I changed my focus.

[The Maestro]

tell that to the alcoholic...

Okay, fine. So an alcoholic realizing life sucks *** cause you let the booze control your life and getting some self-control and mental help to overcome the addiction is as miraculous as snakes talking, two of every animal in a boat and God sending a flood and then replenishing the earth, a man living in a whale, a talking donkey, a woman turning into a pillar of salt, blind people having sight restored, Lazarus being raised from the dead, 5 loaves and two fish feeding 5,000 folks, and Jesus himself being raised from the dead and ascending into heaven.

When I see one of those things happen and not in a fairy tale book that for some reason many of you keep quoting as if it has ANY credibility for those of us who have researched the history of it and the stories that sound EERILY similar to books written BEFORE the Bible...then I will believe. It is not too much to ask for the all-powerful and loving God that knows the number of hairs on my head to prove himself real...and not in just some moment in church with the keyboard playing softly, the speaker almost crying, the lights down dim and everyone around me getting emotional. If he created me then he knows how the mind works and the proof I need, in physical form. Otherwise, the proof you offer is no different than the same **** Charles Manson sees or hears, Jared Lee Loughner sees and hears and all the other people who do what voices in their head tell them to do.

[The Maestro]

Who in the hell wants to gloat? Why don't you just pray and ask God into your life? He's not going to just walk in the door and say hi.
And while you're at it go ahead and invite the Holy Spirit in. He's cool too.

We aren't saying that the folks who died in the tornado weren't praying enough. Try to use the deeper parts of your brain.

Buddy, been there, done that. I've spent years of my life in church. Saved, baptized, and even led folks to Jesus. Led worship in church and preached a time or two.

Then I decided to think.

[JohnnyMack]

He's not going to just walk in the door and say hi.


Why not? Why it gotta be so coy? I kind of like the deities in Greek and Roman mythology better, they at least revealed themselves in human form, unlike this weirdo recluse of the Christian mythology.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/248551_526483147848_145700236_30757112_7084358_n.j pg

thy will be done

[The Maestro]

http://www.best-tshirts-ever.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/hiding-jesus-t-shirt.png

[soonerhubs]

I'm amused at the marginalization of others that so many folks participate in on this board. Is it the lack of religion that is turning many of you folks into pompous arrogant condescending windbags?

It appears to me that some of the "secular humanists" on this board are the antitheses of tolerance, reflection, and objectivity. At least, that's what your words appear to portray. Instead you come off as bitter, identity-crisis ridden whiners who need to find some way of letting go of their past and accepting the fact that different beliefs are okay, even if you "discovered" those beliefs to be false through some use of reason and logic.

I enjoy my religious beliefs. If that makes me some naive moron (pun intended) who you feel sorry for, fine. How about you practice some of that tolerance that you feel so many religions are averse to, and stop mocking other folks' belief systems?

Just so you know... I like most of you regardless of your belief system, including those who are convinced I'm either going to hell, or wasting my time as a zealot.

[soonerbrat]

can i get the condensed version? i don't feel like reading all this.

[JohnnyMack]

I'm amused at the marginalization of others that so many folks participate in on this board. Is it the lack of religion that is turning many of you folks into pompous arrogant condescending windbags?

It appears to me that some of the "secular humanists" on this board are the antitheses of tolerance, reflection, and objectivity. At least, that's what your words appear to portray. Instead you come off as bitter, identity-crisis ridden whiners who need to find some way of letting go of their past and accepting the fact that different beliefs are okay, even if you "discovered" those beliefs to be false through some use of reason and logic.

I enjoy my religious beliefs. If that makes me some naive moron (pun intended) who you feel sorry for, fine. How about you practice some of that tolerance that you feel so many religions are averse to, and stop mocking other folks' belief systems?

Just so you know... I like most of you regardless of your belief system, including those who are convinced I'm either going to hell, or wasting my time as a zealot.

You really shouldn't talk about The Maestro like that. :D

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

can i get the condensed version? i don't feel like reading all this.

We are God haters and will burn in Hell

[soonerhubs]

You really shouldn't talk about The Maestro like that. :D

I was talking about Stephen Hawking. Didn't that genius post in here somewhere? ;)

[soonerbrat]

We are God haters and will burn in Hell

ah good. thanks.

[soonerhubs]

... and we are all religious nutjobs who are wasting our energy holding back human society from the enlightened era when we all become frustrated narcissists looking for other humans to mock and ridicule.

[2121Sooner]

Im doing great. Church made me a really sad and intolerant person.

This is so true. I used to attend mass quite frequently and I loved the feeling when I walked out. Over time it didn't make me sad but I became very judgemental and intolerant of other peoples views if they differed from mine.

I am now a CEO at chuch (Christmas & Easter Only)

[OhU1]

I'm amused at the marginalization of others that so many folks participate in on this board. Is it the lack of religion that is turning many of you folks into pompous arrogant condescending windbags?

It appears to me that some of the "secular humanists" on this board are the antitheses of tolerance, reflection, and objectivity. At least, that's what your words appear to portray. Instead you come off as bitter, identity-crisis ridden whiners who need to find some way of letting go of their past and accepting the fact that different beliefs are okay, even if you "discovered" those beliefs to be false through some use of reason and logic.

I enjoy my religious beliefs. If that makes me some naive moron (pun intended) who you feel sorry for, fine. How about you practice some of that tolerance that you feel so many religions are averse to, and stop mocking other folks' belief systems?

Just so you know... I like most of you regardless of your belief system, including those who are convinced I'm either going to hell, or wasting my time as a zealot.

I respect anyone's right to believe something but I think many of us who do not believe have had enough with being told we must sit quiet and allow the majority to shove their views, assumptions, and traditions down our throats. The right not to believe is not accorded respect.

I'm sure you can relate to some of this as Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are a target many "mainstream" Christians gleefully attack.

I think it's unavoidable for feeling to get hurt when a sensitive subject like deeply held beliefs is being discussed on a message board. Text is cold and without the context of a face to face discussion.

I don't think anyone should be forced to defend their belief or non-belief or participate in such conversations if they don't want to either. I think both "sides" cross the line with generalizations and name calling at times, I'm sure I've been guilty of it, and will be again in the future. Ideally at the end of it all we should at least find a common ground of being able to discuss ideas without personal rancor.

You have given good advice and been very tolerant in your own posts which I commend you for. (and I love your Bassett Hound).

[soonerhubs]

I respect anyone's right to believe something but I think many of us who do not believe have had enough with being told we must sit quiet and allow the majority to shove their views, assumptions, and traditions down our throats. The right not to believe is not accorded respect.

I'm sure you can relate to some of this as Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are a target many "mainstream" Christians gleefully attack.

I think it's unavoidable for feeling to get hurt when a sensitive subject like deeply held beliefs is being discussed on a message board. Text is cold and without the context of a face to face discussion.

I don't think anyone should be forced to defend their belief or non-belief or participate in such conversations if they don't want to either. I think both "sides" cross the line with generalizations and name calling at times, I'm sure I've been guilty of it, and will be again in the future. Ideally at the end of it all we should at least find a common ground of being able to discuss ideas without personal rancor.

You have given good advice and been very tolerant in your own posts which I commend you for. (and I love your Bassett Hound).

Thanks. He's a good ole dog.

Also, great post, and excellent points. It's tough to be a minority in any context including religious.

[OhU1]

Thanks. He's a good ole dog.


We're surprising the old man with a Bassett pup this weekend. Our old Bassett Bo died at age 15 in 2006 and my dad has been wanting a dog ever since but mom has resisted until recently. I'm excited because he'll be "my" dog too when I visit.

(Sorry for the dog thread jack, back to God talk :) )

[King Fuzzy]

your wall of words

It is a little message board unoriginal to be critical of the arrogance and intolerance of folks who are secular humanists while giving a free pass to the prickish behavior of discussants who favor your mythological fairytales. A little FYI, in case you are unaware...It totally undermines the force of whatever point you are trying to make (presumably believers=good non-believers=bad).

I know it's a hard row to hoe being in the vast majority of humans, but try to carry it with a little more grace.

[soonerhubs]

meh... nm