How the true Pilsner spawned the inferior American Lager

[delhalew]

I've never seen an article put all of this information together. For those that don't know how corn and rice came to make up nearly half of a a Standard American Lager, this spells it out. I'm not sure every claim made in this article is rock solid, but it is pretty informative.
http://extolbeer.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/pilseners-and-american-lager-origin-and-evolution/

[delhalew]

Bumpitty. You should know how you ended up drinking this swill.

[NormanPride]

Good info. Thanks!

[delhalew]

I give you the champagne of beers. Wtf ever that is supposed to mean.

http://www.unitefootwear.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/miller.jpg

[Peach Fuzz]

you been on a binge lately?

[OutlandTrophy]

I give you the champagne of beers. Wtf ever that is supposed to mean.

http://www.unitefootwear.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/miller.jpg

:les: YOU SHUT YOUR WHORE MOUTH!!

[Harry Beanbag]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XYiLrMURRG0/TKYF3_QRStI/AAAAAAAACoA/pX81MUHTZ2I/s1600/PBR.jpg

[delhalew]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_XYiLrMURRG0/TKYF3_QRStI/AAAAAAAACoA/pX81MUHTZ2I/s1600/PBR.jpg

Thank you, Harry. We can't forget the PBR.

[OutlandTrophy]

High Life is a great summer beer. I lub it.

[delhalew]

High Life is a great summer beer. I lub it.

Fair enough. Did you read the article. I've drank an ocean of all of this crap. Now that I know why, I feel robbed.

[Peach Fuzz]

ohh PBR.. first 30 pack I ever bought...

[delhalew]

Let's roll up our sleeves and get serious.
http://www.thebrewsite.com/images/beers/milwaukees-best-ice.jpg

[Peach Fuzz]

no dude... I have more respect for myself than to drink MB... Keystone and Busch on the other hand...

[Harry Beanbag]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4917853457_4730ce2c8a.jpg


I remember seeing this stuff at the grocery store about 20 years ago, never tried it.

[Harry Beanbag]

Most of your Mexican beers are this same crappy style. Negra Modelo and Bohemia would be a couple of exceptions of course.

[delhalew]

no dude... I have more respect for myself than to drink MB... Keystone and Busch on the other hand...

There is no difference.

[Peach Fuzz]

its commodity beer, Land O' Lakes

oh but there is, I don't know what it is but my mind says NO to MB

[Harry Beanbag]

BTW, Schlitz makes the best brats.

[delhalew]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4917853457_4730ce2c8a.jpg


I remember seeing this stuff at the grocery store about 20 years ago, never tried it.

it would be about the same as any other Standard American Lager.

[MeMyself&Me]

I've never seen an article put all of this information together. For those that don't know how corn and rice came to make up nearly half of a a Standard American Lager, this spells it out. I'm not sure every claim made in this article is rock solid, but it is pretty informative.
http://extolbeer.wordpress.com/2010/09/13/pilseners-and-american-lager-origin-and-evolution/

I liked the article but it leaves out some point I think are important. For one, before the pilsner infusion into the American market in the 1800s, America had a long tradition of Ales. Pilsners, the advent of clear glass becoming common (so that you could admire the clear beverage), and the advent of technology to help keep beer cold (better for pilsners than ales) really put the hurt on the original ale beer making in America. Ale makers tried to mimic pilsners with cream ales but even that style didn't survive.

The second point is something the article doesn't make clear enough. The original pilsners made in America were made with quality in mind. They didn't have the best kind of barley available which made for a cloudy beer if used at 100%. The use of 20%-30% Rice or Corn diluted the effect enough that the beer looked clear. They still had the hop presence that was common in European lagers. American pilsners of the late 1800s was actually highly regarded.

Modern American lagers use more like 40% of more of Rice, Corn, or sugar, not for the purpose of making the beer clear but for the purpose of making a drier, thinner beer AND they use less total fermentables so that there is less body and less flavor. They also have cut back on the hops to the point that the presence from the hops barely exist. The point of all this is to make a cheap beer that can be consumed easily and quickly... which means you buy more for a session.

[delhalew]

I liked the article but it leaves out some point I think are important. For one, before the pilsner infusion into the American market in the 1800s, America had a long tradition of Ales. Pilsners, the advent of clear glass becoming common (so that you could admire the clear beverage), and the advent of technology to help keep beer cold (better for pilsners than ales) really put the hurt on the original ale beer making in America. Ale makers tried to mimic pilsners with cream ales but even that style didn't survive.

The second point is something the article doesn't make clear enough. The original pilsners made in America were made with quality in mind. They didn't have the best kind of barley available which made for a cloudy beer if used at 100%. The use of 20%-30% Rice or Corn diluted the effect enough that the beer looked clear. They still had the hop presence that was common in European lagers. American pilsners of the late 1800s was actually highly regarded.

Modern American lagers use more like 40% of more of Rice, Corn, or sugar, not for the purpose of making the beer clear but for the purpose of making a drier, thinner beer AND they use less total fermentables so that there is less body and less flavor. They also have cut back on the hops to the point that the presence from the hops barely exist. The point of all this is to make a cheap beer that can be consumed easily and quickly... which means you buy more for a session.

This is correct. Prohibition was, of course, the death blow to America's brewing culture.
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Prohibition.htm

Prohibition had a notable effect on the brewing industry in the United States. When Prohibition ended, only half the number of breweries reopened as had existed before. Many small breweries were out of business for good. Because mainly the largest breweries had survived, American beer came to be chided as a characterless, mass-produced commodity. Beer connoisseurs lamented the decreased quality and variety. It was only in the 1980s that craft brewing finally recovered. Fritz Maytag has been credited with jumpstarting the microbrew revolution that awoke brewing from its post-Prohibition doldrums.

[MeMyself&Me]

This is correct. Prohibition was, of course, the death blow to America's brewing culture.
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Prohibition.htm

Prohibition had a notable effect on the brewing industry in the United States. When Prohibition ended, only half the number of breweries reopened as had existed before. Many small breweries were out of business for good. Because mainly the largest breweries had survived, American beer came to be chided as a characterless, mass-produced commodity. Beer connoisseurs lamented the decreased quality and variety. It was only in the 1980s that craft brewing finally recovered. Fritz Maytag has been credited with jumpstarting the microbrew revolution that awoke brewing from its post-Prohibition doldrums.

Yes, pohibition was the death blow. I think it also helped the larger breweries become the dominate business they are because there wasn't nearly the competition after prohibition as there was before. BUT, America's ale tradition was on the down slide before prohibition due to the other factors I mentioned and the big boy lager companies were already in 'expand and conquer' mode before prohibition. There were far far fewer brewers in the US in 1910 than there were in 1870. The lack of competition after prohibition I am sure helped them get away with making such a subpar product though. Pre-pro pilsners were better than post-pro American lagers.

[delhalew]

Here is an example of one brewers attempt to resurrect the Pre-prohibition Lagers.
http://thomas.cizauskas.net/articles/maize.html

[OhU1]

I've consumed thousands of Miller High Lifes in my life. But none since 2002. I literally didn't know better until I started trying my first craft beers (I used to think Becks was bold). Within a year I stopped buying American Light Lager altogether (except a six pack of Lite last year for after I mowed the lawn).

Miller is the Corn of Beers. Bud has no flavor at all (which, other than being cheap, is why rice is used as it adds to the alcohol content without contributing anything to flavor or color).

In general Americans have preferred bland food so the same has applied to bland beer. More people are moving toward spicier food and more exciting beer which is great to see.

[delhalew]

I've consumed thousands of Miller High Lifes in my life. But none since 2002. I literally didn't know better until I started trying my first craft beers (I used to think Becks was bold). Within a year I stopped buying American Light Lager altogether (except a six pack of Lite last year for after I mowed the lawn).

Miller is the Corn of Beers. Bud has no flavor at all (which, other than being cheap, is why rice is used as it adds to the alcohol content without contributing anything to flavor or color).

In general Americans have preferred bland food so the same has applied to bland beer. More people are moving toward spicier food and more exciting beer which is great to see.

It's really funny. I remember when I would drink the hell out some crap beer. I used to drink 12 to 24 Buds til I couldn't drink the **** anymore. Switch to Miller...uhhgg. Switch to PBR...sick of that. Now I know why. It's all the same ****.

Now beer tastes good, and I drink between 1-12 brews. Better scenario in every way.

[MeMyself&Me]

Here is an example of one brewers attempt to resurrect the Pre-prohibition Lagers.
http://thomas.cizauskas.net/articles/maize.html

LOVED this article. I discovered that I liked a bit of corn in some beers long ago and early on in my homebrewing endeavors. Other brewers and beer snobs look at me cross eyed when I tell them that. It's the overuse of corn that is a bad thing. Also, modern American lager is more likely to have rice or corn sugar (not the same thing) anyway. I hope the brewer is successful. I'd like to have a few commercial versions of the old style.

Maize is also a common adjunct in English ales in small doses but a lot of craft beer drinkers don't want to hear that.

[delhalew]

LOVED this article. I discovered that I liked a bit of corn in some beers long ago and early on in my homebrewing endeavors. Other brewers and beer snobs look at me cross eyed when I tell them that. It's the overuse of corn that is a bad thing. Also, modern American lager is more likely to have rice or corn sugar (not the same thing) anyway. I hope the brewer is successful. I'd like to have a few commercial versions of the old style.

Maize is also a common adjunct in English ales in small doses but a lot of craft beer drinkers don't want to hear that.

I see no need for it in 90% of beers, but why not use a little in the appropriate style.

I mentioned over the weekend having a good dark wheat that used corn as well. They also had an abortion that tasted like cream corn, but you can't win them all.

[OhU1]

They also had an abortion that tasted like cream corn

I like cream corn, but not as a drink. You were in Nebraska weren't you? What did you expect the beer to taste like? :)

[Harry Beanbag]

Creamed corn is ****ing disgusting and I don't want any in a pint glass. Reminds me of the Sam Adams Chocolate Bock I tried this winter that tasted like Yoohoo.

[delhalew]

Creamed corn is ****ing disgusting and I don't want any in a pint glass. Reminds me of the Sam Adams Chocolate Bock I tried this winter that tasted like Yoohoo.

Lol. When it comes to Sammy Adams, I stick with the Imperial Series.

[delhalew]

I like cream corn, but not as a drink. You were in Nebraska weren't you? What did you expect the beer to taste like? :)

This IPA was excellent.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/delhalew/IMAG0081.jpg

[MeMyself&Me]

I see no need for it in 90% of beers, but why not use a little in the appropriate style.

I mentioned over the weekend having a good dark wheat that used corn as well. They also had an abortion that tasted like cream corn, but you can't win them all.

Like I said 'some' beers. The key is if the brewer is using it to enhance the overall quality of the beer. If that's what they are doing then I have no problem with them using corn or wheat or whatever they want to do. It is a funny hypocrisy that a craft beer drinker would turn his nose up at a beer made with a bit of corn on principle but happily drink a Belgian beer made with 20% sugar.

[delhalew]

Like I said 'some' beers. The key is if the brewer is using it to enhance the overall quality of the beer. If that's what they are doing then I have no problem with them using corn or wheat or whatever they want to do. It is a funny hypocrisy that a craft beer drinker would turn his nose up at a beer made with a bit of corn on principle but happily drink a Belgian beer made with 20% sugar.

Yup.

[MeMyself&Me]

I just noticed that article was dated 1997. Then went to the brewery's website and while they're still open for business, they don't seem to be making anything like what was talked about in that article anymore. :(

[delhalew]

I just noticed that article was dated 1997. Then went to the brewery's website and while they're still open for business, they don't seem to be making anything like what was talked about in that article anymore. :(

These things take time. As I said, Thunderhead is getting away with it, but they are in Nebraska.

At least we are not as ridiculous as the Germans.

[Harry Beanbag]

At least we are not as ridiculous as the Germans.


The Reinheitsgebot? I thought that was repealed at some point.

[delhalew]

The Reinheitsgebot? I thought that was repealed at some point.

I know they loosened up enough to allow yeast as an ingredient. Seriously though, you are correct. That doesn't make them less crazy.

[Harry Beanbag]

I know they loosened up enough to allow yeast as an ingredient. Seriously though, you are correct. That doesn't make them less crazy.

No, Germans are weird and anal about pretty much everything.

[Lawton4Life]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4100/4917853457_4730ce2c8a.jpg


I remember seeing this stuff at the grocery store about 20 years ago, never tried it.

I seem to remember them having this at buy for less in the 90s...along with the other products that came in the white bag with black lables like CHIPS and CHEESE

[MeMyself&Me]

I think the EU more or less forced the repeal of the Reinheitsgebot. I remember reading somewhere that under EU agreements, Germany had to allow the sale of beer from other countries within Germany that had adjunts and spices and such as "beer" which of course made the German brewers cry that wasn't fair to them that they had to compete with non-German brewers with one hand tied behind their backs, so to speak. I may be off on the details but I'm sure it something to do with the EU and fair competition.

In any case, the German brewers have a long history of making damned good beer... with one hand tied behind their backs.

[delhalew]

I think the EU more or less forced the repeal of the Reinheitsgebot. I remember reading somewhere that under EU agreements, Germany had to allow the sale of beer from other countries within Germany that had adjunts and spices and such as "beer" which of course made the German brewers cry that wasn't fair to them that they had to compete with non-German brewers with one hand tied behind their backs, so to speak. I may be off on the details but I'm sure it something to do with the EU and fair competition.

In any case, the German brewers have a long history of making damned good beer... with one hand tied behind their backs.

That would make sense. Nothing like ****tarded trade agreements for destroying culture.

[Fraggle145]

I give you the champagne of beers. Wtf ever that is supposed to mean.

http://www.unitefootwear.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/miller.jpg

DON'T DIS THE HIGH LIFE! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[delhalew]

DON'T DIS THE HIGH LIFE! :mad: :mad: :mad:

:D

[Fraggle145]

I liked the article but it leaves out some point I think are important. For one, before the pilsner infusion into the American market in the 1800s, America had a long tradition of Ales. Pilsners, the advent of clear glass becoming common (so that you could admire the clear beverage), and the advent of technology to help keep beer cold (better for pilsners than ales) really put the hurt on the original ale beer making in America. Ale makers tried to mimic pilsners with cream ales but even that style didn't survive.

The second point is something the article doesn't make clear enough. The original pilsners made in America were made with quality in mind. They didn't have the best kind of barley available which made for a cloudy beer if used at 100%. The use of 20%-30% Rice or Corn diluted the effect enough that the beer looked clear. They still had the hop presence that was common in European lagers. American pilsners of the late 1800s was actually highly regarded.

Modern American lagers use more like 40% of more of Rice, Corn, or sugar, not for the purpose of making the beer clear but for the purpose of making a drier, thinner beer AND they use less total fermentables so that there is less body and less flavor. They also have cut back on the hops to the point that the presence from the hops barely exist. The point of all this is to make a cheap beer that can be consumed easily and quickly... which means you buy more for a session.

BULL****. :P

http://www.united-nations-of-beer.com/images/calories-in-genesee-cream-ale-21354489.jpg

[NormanPride]

What is the Bud "American Ale" or whatever? I tried it once and spat it out.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Have you guys actually drank Genesee? It's like liquid sphincter.

And yes, the Reinheitsgebot is no more, replaced by a more flexible beer purity law. HOWEVER, with all the different applications of the main three ingredients (which includes yeast but not to the knowledge of the brewers at the time, hence why there's only three), is it such a bad thing?

Snooty purists aside, I kinda like the premise. I realize there's a place for corn and rice for a continental, but there's an awful lot of love to be had from the original nuts and bolts.

[delhalew]

Have you guys actually drank Genesee? It's like liquid sphincter.

And yes, the Reinheitsgebot is no more, replaced by a more flexible beer purity law. HOWEVER, with all the different applications of the main three ingredients (which includes yeast but not to the knowledge of the brewers at the time, hence why there's only three), is it such a bad thing?

Snooty purists aside, I kinda like the premise. I realize there's a place for corn and rice for a continental, but there's an awful lot of love to be had from the original nuts and bolts.

Sure, but the original nuts and bolts kind of depend on were you're coming from.

[MeMyself&Me]

BULL****. :P

http://www.united-nations-of-beer.com/images/calories-in-genesee-cream-ale-21354489.jpg

Heh, I was thinking of the original pre-pro version that would have been a bit more substantial.

[MeMyself&Me]

Sure, but the original nuts and bolts kind of depend on were you're coming from.

No kidding. Beer has a long LONG history before hops were ever considered.

[delhalew]

No kidding. Beer has a long LONG history before hops were ever considered.

Someday I hope to get creative with a historic brew. For now I'm happy to make beer.

[royalfan5]

Fun story time, in the 1980's Miller took out full page ads in the Nebraska Farmer Magazine to brag about how much Nebraska grown corn they had bought.

[MeMyself&Me]

Someday I hope to get creative with a historic brew. For now I'm happy to make beer.

I like hops too much to try something like that. There's a reason hops took hold of Europe so quickly once they were finally tried... no better marriage exists. In most beers I've tried that had spices, there is a bitterness that I would describe as different and odd compared to hops... not unplessant, but distracting and out of place.

BUT doing something like that is part of what makes brewing at home fun so if your curious... go for it!

[MeMyself&Me]

Fun story time, in the 1980's Miller took out full page ads in the Nebraska Farmer Magazine to brag about how much Nebraska grown corn they had bought.

I don't know this for sure but I think Miller uses corn syrup which is not the same as using corn in the mash. The process of making corn syrup removes most of the flavor and body components of corn itself in relation to beer and is more akin to using rice which only thins the body and flavor of the beer.

[royalfan5]

I don't know this for sure but I think Miller uses corn syrup which is not the same as using corn in the mash. The process of making corn syrup removes most of the flavor and body components of corn itself in relation to beer and is more akin to using rice which only thins the body and flavor of the beer.

Either way, you still got to buy the corn.

[delhalew]

I don't know this for sure but I think Miller uses corn syrup which is not the same as using corn in the mash. The process of making corn syrup removes most of the flavor and body components of corn itself in relation to beer and is more akin to using rice which only thins the body and flavor of the beer.

That may have been just before they and damn near everybody else who makes edible products went to using the corn syrup.

Besides, truth in advertising is not a hallmark of the American beer industry.

[MeMyself&Me]

Either way, you still got to buy the corn.

Well yes... but if you know what the difference is in terms of flavor and body and you are buying a beer, Miller doesn't cut it. A little corn in the mash isnt't a bad thing. It actually adds something to the beer. Corn syrup just detracts from a quality beer.

[royalfan5]

Well yes... but if you know what the difference is in terms of flavor and body and you are buying a beer, Miller doesn't cut it. A little corn in the mash isnt't a bad thing. It actually adds something to the beer. Corn syrup just detracts from a quality beer.

My point was solely that Miller pays cash for a lot of corn.

[MeMyself&Me]

My point was solely that Miller pays cash for a lot of corn.

Hmmm... I guess thats good for those involved with corn production. Bad for everyone else. :(

[GKeeper316]

after the depression, when most of the local breweries had shut down, the big 3 (busch/coors/miller) were just looking for something they could make cheap and sell as much as possible.

during prohibition, some breweries such as coors stayed in business by making malted milk.