Racism? I despise Chicago but Yall read this

[olevetonahill]

Then discuss.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_chicago_firefighters_lawsuit

[Spray]

This thread has serious potential. I expect an intelligent, spirited and uplifting discussion to follow.

Well done, vet!

[delhalew]

Someone is going to have to explain to me how an exam, being an inanimate object, can discriminate against someone.

[olevetonahill]

This thread has serious potential. I expect an intelligent, spirited and uplifting discussion to follow.

Well done, vet!

Thank ya, Thank ya.



Someone is going to have to explain to me how an exam, being an inanimate object, can discriminate against someone.

Agreed. What I dont understand is If Im gonna hire X number of Peeps for a Position and I administer a test then say To be considered I will only look at peeps in a certain Percentile, Then when I have 4 times the # that I need . I decide Im gonna start with the Highest scores 1st. And fill my quota . Then every one else is SOL. Try again next time.

[Flagstaffsooner]

Vet, you black. You be a Chicago Fireman?

[Mongo]

I predict good things from this thread

[olevetonahill]

Vet, you black. You be a Chicago Fireman?

I should have applied. Hell look at all the money I could have gotten from doing nothing to earn it cept score a barely passin score.;)

[Fraggle145]

I just dont understand how a 64 on the exam means something but getting an 89, presumably better than a 64 because it is a higher number, isnt a better score and wouldnt make you a better firefighter? :confused:

[delhalew]

I just dont understand how a 64 on the exam means something but getting an 89, presumably better than a 64 because it is a higher number, isnt a better score and wouldnt make you a better firefighter? :confused:

You and I are clearly having trouble understanding the base argument of this case.

Maybe someone who nearly failed in school can explain it to us.

[Spray]

Welllll- the exam was deemed discriminatory in its application, so its was going to disproportionately disqualify African Americans on its face. The court determined most minorities would fall in the 64-89 range, ensuring that only whites got into the "lottery".

So the test, in its actual application, results in discrimination and we have a winner for this episode of "American Justice Today".

[delhalew]

Welllll- the exam was deemed discriminatory in its application, so its was going to disproportionately disqualify African Americans on its face. The court determined most minorities would fall in the 64-89 range, ensuring that only whites got into the "lottery".

So the test, in its actual application, results in discrimination and we have a winner for this episode of "American Justice Today".

Right. You understand that that was complete bull****, right. Because I could have spit out that same tired line, but that wouldn't have made it so.

[Mongo]

The court determined most minorities would fall in the 64-89 range,

so the court is saying minorities are stoopider than non minorities?






runs away

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I've been on test construction panels for California. You have to show how each test question relates to the job. If they're just general aptitude type questions asking the applicant to figure out something that one does not need to figure out on the job, then it may be good material for lawsuits. And now they have bias panels that review the tests for possible bias.

[olevetonahill]

so the court is saying minorities are stoopider than non minorities?






runs away

I give ya VY and his wonderlick score.:rolleyes:

[Spray]

That's a simplified (admittedly, very) version of the court's analysis- no **** whatsoever. It's a pretty standardized way of looking at all kinds of tests, employment policies, etc. that may result in discrimination.

I didn't write the rules- decades of American jurisprudence did.

[Spray]

so the court is saying minorities are stoopider than non minorities?






runs away

Heh.

No, the court is saying that the test is saying that the test writers are saying minorities are stoopider than non-minorities.

[delhalew]

That's a simplified (admittedly, very) version of the court's analysis- no **** whatsoever. It's a pretty standardized way of looking at all kinds of tests, employment policies, etc. that may result in discrimination.

I didn't write the rules- decades of American jurisprudence did.

That's my point. The law looks at it that way, but we all know it's a straw man.

[olevetonahill]

Heh.

No, the court is saying that the test is saying that the test writers are saying minorities are stoopider than non-minorities.

I dont care about what the courts say. I want Yalls honest opinion about the Outcome ;)

[Spray]

Well, without reading the opinion I'd say its probably a fair application of the law by the Circuit Court that can certainly be left open for review by the Supreme Court (which probably won't happen).

How's that for hedging? All that law schoolin' didn't go completely to waste, huh? ;)

[olevetonahill]

Oh so yer "ONE OF THEM?":P

[Spray]

I hide it well.

I'm a shark in goldfish's clothing.

Goldfishes's. Goldfishhh's. Goldfihsss's. Whatever.

[Jammin']

What a joke.

[delhalew]

Well, without reading the opinion I'd say its probably a fair application of the law by the Circuit Court that can certainly be left open for review by the Supreme Court (which probably won't happen).

How's that for hedging? All that law schoolin' didn't go completely to waste, huh? ;)

You can join the rest of the lawyers that used to frequent thus board. Don't take it personal when I say that all that law schooling has robbed you of the ability to have a real conversation, or to grasp anything real. You humanity has been juris prudenced right out of your head. You are a law robot:D.

Now where is TU, so I can kick him in the nuts.

[olevetonahill]

What a joke.

Whats a Joke? Yer black Id really like yer honest opinion.

[Spray]

As a non-practicing attorney (seems like there are a lot of those these days) I take no offense, and actually agree with that. It's more difficult to take a side when you spent 3 years learning how to argue all of them.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if one of our "practicing" friends came along and corrected my simple analysis to make it more accurate. I'm working off of memories of 11 years ago. And I have managed to erase many of those through one method or another...

[soonerhubs]

The same city that elected Rahm? They get what they deserve.

[SoCaliSooner]

These guys will be able to retire in 5 years too.

[olevetonahill]

These guys will be able to retire in 5 years too.

Yer a Fireman. Whats yer take on the testing deal?

[C&CDean]

Yer black Id really like yer honest opinion.

Not so fast my friend...

[olevetonahill]

Ok, Im not saying Racism wasnt a part of this deal cause I wernt there.
It just seems to me that the applicants that scored higher on the test should get 1st consideration. Am i wrong ?:confused:

[olevetonahill]

Not so fast my friend...

What??

[Spray]

Ok, Im not saying Racism wasnt a part of this deal cause I wernt there.
It just seems to me that the applicants that scored higher on the test should get 1st consideration. Am i wrong ?:confused:

No.

Unless the test is deemed discriminatory.

Then, yes.

[olevetonahill]

No.

Unless the test is deemed discriminatory.

Then, yes.

Then back to Why have ANY test?:confused:

[Spray]

Just make the test non-discriminatory.

OR put everyone who scored a 64 or higher in the pool.

[C&CDean]

What??

Jammin' say he black, but I ain't quite sure. How many brothas do you know that fawn over the Rolling Stones?

[Spray]

Look, when you give a "qualifying" test like this to 6000 folks and then get the results back and realize you only have white guys to choose from, you should realize you might have a problem.

And I say this not knowing if they knew the race of the "qualifiers". If they didn't, then they should have known they had a problem when the 160 white guys showed up for their first day of work.

[Jammin']

Whats a Joke? Yer black Id really like yer honest opinion.


Not so fast my friend...

I'm all for earning your position. Honestly and through hard work. I have two undergrad degrees and a masters and none were handed to me for doing poorly or for the color of my skin. In the job market, I've earned my jobs and my promotions. I've gotten a job because of who and what I know but, to my knowledge, my race has never played a part. Nor has my black soul.

[C&CDean]

Look, when you give a "qualifying" test like this to 6000 folks and then get the results back and realize you only have white guys to choose from, you should realize you might have a problem.

And I say this not knowing if they knew the race of the "qualifiers". If they didn't, then they should have known they had a problem when the 160 white guys showed up for their first day of work.

I agree "you might have a problem." But why does it have to be the test? It can't be that some of the people applying are dumber than doleo?

Why should a test be designed to discriminate against people who went to school, payed attention, and did well on the exam? I mean how do you dumb down a test for firefighters? "What year did Biggy get popped?" Please.

[Jammin']

Jammin' say he black, but I ain't quite sure. How many brothas do you know that fawn over the Rolling Stones?

Billy Preston. RIP

[olevetonahill]

Jammin' say he black, but I ain't quite sure. How many brothas do you know that fawn over the Rolling Stones?

Well there is that, Plus he said he dont wear his hat backards



Look, when you give a "qualifying" test like this to 6000 folks and then get the results back and realize you only have white guys to choose from, you should realize you might have a problem.

And I say this not knowing if they knew the race of the "qualifiers". If they didn't, then they should have known they had a problem when the 160 white guys showed up for their first day of work.

So then yer saying there should BE quotas?Isnt that perpetuating the racism?

[C&CDean]

Billy Preston. RIP

Not good enough. It's Friday the 13th. Proof, or you're just another pasty, Dr. Pepper engorged, pencil necked white boy playing us all for a fool.

[Spray]

Only because the used the test to make their decision for them.

I agree- interview a mother****er for goodness sakes.

[olevetonahill]

I agree "you might have a problem." But why does it have to be the test? It can't be that some of the people applying are dumber than doleo?

Why should a test be designed to discriminate against people who went to school, payed attention, and did well on the exam? I mean how do you dumb down a test for firefighters? "What year did Biggy get popped?" Please.

You owe me a new ****in LapTop :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Spray]

It's not about quotas. They probably designed the test to help them blindly meet the quotas, or at least make an argument that no subjectivity played into the process.

Problem is, the result didn't help them.

And think about it- 6000 people took the test and only white people passed it to a level to be considered for the job? Doesn't that sound just a little fishy?

[Jammin']

Not good enough. It's Friday the 13th. Proof, or you're just another pasty, Dr. Pepper engorged, pencil necked white boy playing us all for a fool.

Why does the color of my skin have any bearing here? I'm definitely another patsy. Hate dr pepper. And think some here are fools regardless. Pencil necked? Maybe, though I'm not as thin as I once was. If I said I was white would you like me more or less?

[SoCaliSooner]

Not so fast my friend...

As a caucasion on my department you will need your EMT, have a degree in fire technology, then get on with CAL Fire, or US Forrest Service, then get your paramedic cert. After all that you are going to have to score 100 and 95 minimum on your written test and oral interview, and THEN you end up hopefully in hiring band 1 or 2, which takes a few years to get through.

For minorities, score 80 and 75 with no other experience and you'll leapfrog all the guys except those with an additional 5 points for military service.

Personally it should be who scored the highest, but that's not the America we live in. White probies rarely wash out in the academy because they've prepared. If other minorities fail or get recycled to another academy, some get attorneys and are back in the class within days because the fire service is inherently racist.

The supreme court a couple years ago ruled on a case involving firefighters. A promotional exam was administered and the guys who passed and scored enough to promote were white. No blacks even passed, let alone placed high enough to make a promotional list. So the department threw out the test results until a test was devised to make it easier for black firefighters to pass...or a separate exam only for black candidates could be administered.

The guys who passed and were denied promotion sued. They won and lost rulings along the way until it made the SCOTUS and they ruled in the white guys favor.

In this situation, who is going to sue? Not these new firefighters or the city, so it's unlikely to be overturned and I am sure somewhere Jesse Jackson is getting a sizable donation.

[delhalew]

Look let's get real basic. What is gonna be on there that a cracker is gonna know, but a jive turkey won't. Are they asking these guys about the Grand Ole Opry? White guys in Chicago couldn't answer those, but you know what I mean.

[C&CDean]

Why does the color of my skin have any bearing here? I'm definitely another patsy. Hate dr pepper. And think some here are fools regardless. Pencil necked? Maybe, though I'm not as thin as I once was. If I said I was white would you like me more or less?

It doesn't - other than you've been claiming to be black. We had another ****wad on here who did the same thing and it didn't end well at all.

If you are actually black then I would like you more since that's the persona you presented. If you're white, you're one lame mother****er.

[olevetonahill]

So its still reverse Racism because of "White Guilt"

Ya know what ? its shat like this that will cause racism. I dont care if a mother ****er is purple with pink ****in spots. If he is the Most qualified he gets the JOB. end of story.:rolleyes:

[Jammin']

It doesn't - other than you've been claiming to be black. We had another ****wad on here who did the same thing and it didn't end well at all.

If you are actually black then I would like you more since that's the persona you presented. If you're white, you're one lame mother****er.

Nice. I now you already know who I am and my race I signed up using my real name in my email.just like every board I've been too. Not like I'm hiding. I appreciate your attempt at an ambush. Move on to something that matters. Like Peter pan and the stones. (I mean really)

[olevetonahill]

It doesn't - other than you've been claiming to be black. We had another ****wad on here who did the same thing and it didn't end well at all.

If you are actually black then I would like you more since that's the persona you presented. If you're white, you're one lame mother****er.

Oh yea, That was fun.

Scott D is one cool MoFo. I like HIM a lot

[C&CDean]

Nice. I now you already know who I am and my race I signed up using my real name in my email.just like every board I've been too. Not like I'm hiding. I appreciate your attempt at an ambush. Move on to something that matters. Like Peter pan and the stones. (I mean really)

I don't look at sign-on info, emails or any of that stuff. I hang on the board. That's it. Now I do have to ask, in your sign up info was there a question that asked about race? If so, it's something really new...

I ain't trying to ambush you, however, I ain't got ANY patience for folks who go around claiming one thing - then being something altogether different. You see, we actually know/hang out/like/dislike folks here. We especially hate phonies and charlatans. Lord knows we've got enough of them here to sink the Titanic.

It doesn't matter what color you are. It does matter if you're jerking folks around. Get it?

[Jammin']

I don't look at sign-on info, emails or any of that stuff. I hang on the board. That's it. Now I do have to ask, in your sign up info was there a question that asked about race? If so, it's something really new...

I ain't trying to ambush you, however, I ain't got ANY patience for folks who go around claiming one thing - then being something altogether different. You see, we actually know/hang out/like/dislike folks here. We especially hate phonies and charlatans. Lord knows we've got enough of them here to sink the Titanic.

It doesn't matter what color you are. It does matter if you're jerking folks around. Get it?

A black person is altogether different from a white person, in your opinion?

[C&CDean]

A black person is altogether different from a white person, in your opinion?

You didn't answer any of the questions and that makes me sad.

[Jammin']

You didn't answer any of the questions and that makes me sad.

My bad. No, there wasn't a race question at sign up. Yes I get that you don't like getting jerked around. But I do enjoy jerking people around, made that clear to you early on. Now how about answering mine.

[olevetonahill]

I don't look at sign-on info, emails or any of that stuff. I hang on the board. That's it. Now I do have to ask, in your sign up info was there a question that asked about race? If so, it's something really new...

I ain't trying to ambush you, however, I ain't got ANY patience for folks who go around claiming one thing - then being something altogether different. You see, we actually know/hang out/like/dislike folks here. We especially hate phonies and charlatans. Lord knows we've got enough of them here to sink the Titanic.

It doesn't matter what color you are. It does matter if you're jerking folks around. Get it?


A black person is altogether different from a white person, in your opinion?

Come on Jammin. Im starting to like you, Where did he say that?

[C&CDean]

Now how about answering mine.

I did. You didn't pay attention.

[Jammin']

Come on Jammin. Im starting to like you, Where did he say that?


I ain't trying to ambush you, however, I ain't got ANY patience for folks who go around claiming one thing - then being something altogether different.

Maybe I'm just reading too much into things. And I like you too vet.

[soonerboomer93]

does he also clean carpets?

[delhalew]

I did. You didn't pay attention.

Aww man. No way he is gonna score like a white guy on that test if he can't focus better than that.

[Whet]

It is legalized racial discrimination. According to the court, race overrides aptitude.

[olevetonahill]

Maybe I'm just reading too much into things. And I like you too vet.

Think ya are. You say yer Black I axed yer opinion, Dean says we have had folks on here claiming to be Black and they Yanked chains, then got all pizzed and left.
I really believe there aint but maybe 3 or 4 here that are really racist and I aint sure what color THEY be.;)

[C&CDean]

Maybe I'm just reading too much into things. And I like you too vet.

The difference between me/us is that we're transparent. Here's me with one of my very best friends (no clue who the white dude is cause I was durnk):

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4056/dsc0123gp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/dsc0123gp.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

My problem with y'all is that you ain't forthcoming enough to share the same way. Well other than socali.

[olevetonahill]

It is legalized racial discrimination. According to the court, race overrides aptitude.

What Im thinkin.
This **** sounds to me Like Make up sex. Blacks got ****ed a century ago Now they get free shots at ****in whitey .
Im sorry I never discriminated against a Black person in my life, My family way back when never owned a slave. I venture a bet that 1/2 the Afro-Americans In this country today never had a Slave as an ancestor
Jes Sayin

[olevetonahill]

The difference between me/us is that we're transparent. Here's me with one of my very best friends (no clue who the white dude is cause I was durnk):

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4056/dsc0123gp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/dsc0123gp.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

My problem with y'all is that you ain't forthcoming enough to share the same way. Well other than socali.

Hell I met em Both, But the Only reason i member yer name is cause Ive met ya more than once.

[SoCaliSooner]

Well other than socali.

I am an open book making the effort to understand, appreciate and be understood.

[olevetonahill]

I am an open book making the effort to understand, appreciate and be understood.

Here I am
u_iSIv26S_o

[Jammin']

I appreciate your transparency Dean. I really do.

I appreciate what SoCal brings as well. Lies or not.

vet, I'd like to meet one day.

[salth2o]

It is legalized racial discrimination. According to the court, race overrides aptitude.

this

[olevetonahill]

I appreciate your transparency Dean. I really do.

I appreciate what SoCal brings as well. Lies or not.

vet, I'd like to meet one day.

Bro, Im just ME. What ya see here on the Board is what ya gonna meet.. Same with Dean
You get a Invite to the Ho-Down ;)

[texaspokieokie]

this is a good thread !!
chicago got screwed, but who really cares about chi-town. barry will fix it.

i don't understand how a test can discriminate. folks who were born & raised in the same area should've learned approx. the same stuff.someone should (or not) show me how this happens.


should it be translated into "ebonics" ??

if you can't use the results, throw out the test.

lots of old judges need to retire. this may or may not have been a factor in this case.

[Caboose]

Only because the used the test to make their decision for them.

I agree- interview a mother****er for goodness sakes.

Interview 6000 people? Seriously?

If only there were a way to weed about 90 % of those out prior to the interview process.... hmm...It's a goddam mystery as to how that could be done.

[Caboose]

It's not about quotas. They probably designed the test to help them blindly meet the quotas, or at least make an argument that no subjectivity played into the process.

Problem is, the result didn't help them.

And think about it- 6000 people took the test and only white people passed it to a level to be considered for the job? Doesn't that sound just a little fishy?

Not really. Was "what is your race?" one of the test questions?

[texaspokieokie]

Not really. Was "what is your race?" one of the test questions?

good point.

[texaspokieokie]

Not really. Was "what is your race?" one of the test questions?

i think i like "indy 500" the best.

[Midtowner]

I don't see how the Court ignored Washington v. Davis, which is a SCOTUS case which is directly on point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_v._Davis

[Fish&Game]

I went through this same scenario a few years ago at a job I was applying for. Went through the application/test process, and went through two interviews. The NAACP filed a greivance with the hiring process, and subsequently all the applications were thrown out and the process re-started.

It's was ok though, I found a better, higher paying job somewhere else

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I don't know anything about the test used in this Chicago case, but in general, there is an issue of how the test is constructed.

The folks who construct tests like this tend to choose questions that reflect their own competencies.

1. For example, if I'm writing a test for math teachers, maybe I'll construct a question about finding the probability of selecting a red ace from a standard deck of cards. I played cards all my life but someone who is not familiar with the makeup of a deck of cards may have difficulty with the question, even though they understand probability concepts and principles.

2. Suppose the firefighter test has the following question: A firetruck travels 50 mph per hour from Point A to Point B and returns to Point A traveling 25 mph. The distance from A to B is 25 miles. What is the overall average rate (in mph) for the roundtrip?

a. 33 1/3 mph
b. 37.5 mph
c. 42.5 mph
d 75 mph

One might argue that this question has no relevance to being a good firefighter. But the counterargument might be, "we want smart firefighters. Can't be dumb and be a good firefighter."

3. Suppose an all-black community has a fire department and they decide to construct a test for firefighter applicants. The all-black test constructors might decide to test applicants to see how fast they can run and how high they can jump. Fighting fires is a physical job no doubt. How fast you can run may be more relevant than how well you can solve logic puzzles. We want fast and agile firefighters. Can't be a slow guy and be a good firefighter."

But seriously, they would construct test questions that are likely different from the questions made up by firefighters from an all-white community... those that reflect their own competencies.

[Turd_Ferguson]

I don't know anything about the test used in this Chicago case, but in general, there is an issue of how the test is constructed.

The folks who construct tests like this tend to choose questions that reflect their own competencies.

1. For example, if I'm writing a test for math teachers, maybe I'll construct a question about finding the probability of selecting a red ace from a standard deck of cards. I played cards all my life but someone who is not familiar with the makeup of a deck of cards may have difficulty with the question, even though they understand probability concepts and principles.

2. Suppose the firefighter test has the following question: A firetruck travels 50 mph per hour from Point A to Point B and returns to Point A traveling 25 mph. The distance from A to B is 25 miles. What is the overall average rate (in mph) for the roundtrip?

a. 33 1/3 mph
b. 37.5 mph
c. 42.5 mph
d 75 mph

One might argue that this question has no relevance to being a good firefighter. But the counterargument might be, "we want smart firefighters. Can't be dumb and be a good firefighter."

3. Suppose an all-black community has a fire department and they decide to construct a test for firefighter applicants. The all-black test constructors might decide to test applicants to see how fast they can run and how high they can jump. Fighting fires is a physical job no doubt. How fast you can run may be more relevant than how well you can solve logic puzzles. We want fast and agile firefighters. Can't be a slow guy and be a good firefighter."

But seriously, they would construct test questions that are likely different from the questions made up by firefighters from an all-white community... those that reflect their own competencies.So, your saying whites are smarter than blacks?

[SoCaliSooner]

You mean questions like....

"If Kobe scores 45 points, how many more does he need to score to make 50 points?"

A) 5 more points
B) Why ain't Gasol contributing?
C) Kobe's the MVP, he can score more than 50
D) LeBron is a punk a** b****.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

So, your saying whites are smarter than blacks?

I'm saying those who construct the test get to define what the meaning of "smart" is.

[Whet]

I'm saying those who construct the test get to define what the meaning of "smart" is.

Kinda like school teachers, college professors, DMV, state professional registration boards, medical boards, etc.?

[Soonerfan88]

Ok, I'll lay out the facts that I got from the article:
Passing grade for the test was 65.
City decided to hire the top 1800 that got 89 or above.
11% of those scoring 89 or above were black.

And just from what the article states: "In her ruling the judge said the city knew the cutoff point was meaningless and would disproportionately exclude blacks from the pool of candidates most likely to be hired."

Also "An attorney for the black firefighter candidates said that the 111 jobs would be filled from the applicants who passed the 1995 test and their pensions would be adjusted as if they'd been firefighters since 1995. And, said Joshua Karsh, 6,000 others who also passed the test will divide "tens of millions of dollars" that would have been paid 111 firefighters from 1995 until today."


What I take from this: the test was only deemed discriminatory by the judge because the city set a cut-off above the stated passing grade - not because the questions themselves were discriminatory. And the only ones scoring between 65-88 that get to share in the money are blacks. If you were white, asian, hispanic, etc and got passed over because you scored too low - tough ****.

Yep, looks like racism to me.

[Sooner_Tuf]

You guys don't understand. It worked so well in Detroit we need to apply the same model to other cities.

[SoonerBread]

*****

[CORNholio]

How in the hell can a test be racist? Unless the test went something like this then I call BS.

Firefighter White Supremacy Test

Q1. If you had a million welfare dollars which drink would you buy a million of? B

A) Red Kool-Aid
B) Grape Drink
C) would trade for crack
D) none of the above

XWrong, you dumb minority.


That's the only way a test can be racist.

[MR2-Sooner86]

I hate being white :(
The discrimination I receive is second to none...

That's why I pull out my Cherokee Indian card to level the playing field :D

[cccasooner2]

I think they dererve it. It's too bad the Illinois taxpayers have to bite the bullet. I think the various Daley estates should poney up, but that's what risk taking is all about, have someone else pay for your "risks".