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87sooner
4/23/2011, 01:37 PM
so in america...we can no longer assemble and protest if the local authorities decide security/safety is an issue...

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/wayne_county/quran-burning-pastor-terry-jones-to-arrive-in-metro-detroit-today


DETROIT (WXYZ) - Controversial Quran-burning Pastor Terry Jones left Dearborn Saturday after unsuccessfully staging a protest outside of the Islamic American Center, but not before vowing to return the following week for another protest.

Jones and his associate Wayne Sapp left for Florida, but say they'll hold a protest at 5:00p.m. next Friday. This time, however, it will not be at the Islamic center, it will be at the courthouse. Jones says his constitutional rights were denied when he was arrested and unable to protest on Friday.

The development came after a jury found a proposed protest by Jones and his associate Wayne Sapp outside the Islamic Center of America, the largest mosque in the United States, was likely to breach the peace and incite violence.

The jury began debating the case at around 3:30 p.m. Thursday. The main issue of the one day trial was whether or not Jones's main purpose was to say or do something that would incite violence. They came back with their verdict shortly after 6:30 p.m.

Based on the decision Jones was required to submit a peace bond. The judge set the bond at $1. He also ordered that neither Jones nor his associate could enter the property of the Islamic Center of America or the area surrounding it for 3 years.

The judge then asked both men if they were prepared to post their bonds. Both men refused and were taken into custody. They were due to be taken to the Wayne County Jail until their bond was posted. It is not known who posted the bonds.

At the start of Friday’s trial, prosecutors presented their arguments before the jury. They argued that a protest outside the mosque would pose a significant safety issue. They also argued that there is concern from authorities that someone may get hurt.

In addition to concerns of safety, prosecutors say the Florida pastor would not be following the law if he held a protest outside the mosque after he was denied a permit for that particular location. He was asked to hold his protest in a permit free zone, but insisted that they would still hold their protest outside of the mosque.

Jones spoke in court and argued that he has the First Amendment right to protest outside the mosque.

“I believe… they will try and show you many pictures of events trying to paint us into a [certain] light. There are possible things we did concerning Quran and the burning of the Quran which you possibly may not agree with. One thing I think we have to remember, this is to a certain extent a First Amendment issue,” said Jones.

During his opening statement before the jury, Jones talked about the charges they make against the Quran.

"“The burning of the Quran is obviously to some people offensive. We charge the Quran in three ways; the Quran is charged with the training and promoting of…activities around the world; the Quran is charged with the death, rape and torture of people worldwide whose only crime is not being Muslim; the Quran is charged with crimes against women…against minorities, against Christians with the promoting of prejudice and racism against anyone who is not a Muslim," said Jones.

The pastor's associate, Wayne Sapp, is also in court to testify about their intent to hold the protest. He told the court they have no intention of causing any violence. When questioned by prosecutors, Sapp said they planned to hold the protest regardless of the outcome of today's proceedings. Sapp was also questioned by Terry Jones, who is representing himself in the case.

Prosecutors also brought up safety concerns about Terry Jones carrying a firearm after his weapon accidentally discharged in the parking lot at Detroit TV State WJBK Thursday night. No one was injured.

Dearborn Police Chief Ronald Haddad also took the stand to testify. Chief Haddad denied the permit request that would allow the protest to take place outside of the mosque. He testified that there were concerns over safety.

Terry Jones also questioned Chief Haddad. He referred to a conversation he had with the Chief and asked him what his impression was after they had met. Chief Haddad responded that Jones was cordial and did not appear to be violent in nature.

The prosecutors wrapped up their case in the morning before the court’s lunch break.

Jones and Sapp called two witnesses after that break then rested their case. Their witnesses included a Texas Pastor who has protested with Jones before and a Rabbi who said he would join their protest at the Islamic Center of America.

After a short break closing arguments began.

During their closing arguments the lawyer for the Wayne County Prosecutor's Office argued, "Just because we have the first amendment doesn't mean you can say anything or do anything at any time." He then referenced the fact that you cannot yell "Fire" in a crowded theater because that poses a danger to the people inside.

Prosecutors then went on to describe the conditions in the area and the problems that they say would make Jones' protest dangerous. They include limited access for rescuepersonnel should something happen. They argue "It's a recipe for disaster."

The prosecutors also brought up Jones' and Sapp's intents saying that they have already said they will break the law by holding the protest, no matter what the court rules. It is not clear if he still intends to go through with the protest now that the jury has ruled against him.

In his closing arguments Pastor Jones rebutted the prosecutor’s claim that he and Sapp don't care, saying that they do care and that "that is why we do this."

Jones also said the reason he and Sapp would not protest at the court house is because they are not protesting American laws. He says he wants to protest at the Islamic Center of America because that is the right venue for his protest, which is against radical Islam.

Then, addressing arguments about the traffic problem, Jones asked is that a "good enough" reason to "deny someone' rights?"

After Jones wrapped up his closing argument, his associate Wayne Sapp gave his. He began by saying that the prosecution was arguing that their actions were intending to breach the peace. However, he said all of the evidence prosecutors have presented is about the actions of others. He sais the jury must judge the case on their actions and not those of others.

Sapp then referenced a video presented by prosecutors as evidence, saying it did not show any violence either by them or on their behalf.

Closing arguments wrapped up with the prosecutor's rebuttal. Then the judge gave the jury their instructions and they began deliberating. They were back with a verdict three hours later.

The courtroom drama began Thursday when, during his first court appearance, the judge ordered that Jones had to post a peace bond. That’s a court order that requires a person to submit money that would guarantee that they would not commit a breach of peace.

Jones refused to post the peace bond, which gave him the right to have a trial by jury to decide if the court was correct in imposing the bond. Jones chose to have a trial by jury instead of letting the judge decide. The main purpose of the trial was to determine what Jones's intent was in holding the protest.

Thursday’s hearing was ordered after prosecutors argued that the threat of violence was too great to allow the protest to go forward on the grounds of the Islamic Center of America. When Jones was ordered not to hold his protest on the grounds of the mosque, he was given the option to hold it in one of the city’s free speech zones.

Terry Jones is the primary speaker for 'Stand Up America Now.' The organization released the following statement to Action News Saturday morning:
"We posted the bond. We made it very, very clear that we posted this under the greatest protest!
The arrests, the whole proceedings, were a definite violation of our Constitutional rights. As a matter of fact, we were arrested and had not even committed a crime. It is a complete violation of our First Amendment Right of Freedom of Speech.
It was clearly influenced by the mosque. We were told that we were able to present our message in front of one of the "Free Speech Zones", but we were NOT allowed to present our message in the grassy area in front of the mosque. Thus making it very clear that this is not about our message, and not about us, but about the place. In other words, it is all about the location which is the Islamic Center.
Sharia is much closer than we thought. The judge even made a statement, that if the mosque elders and leadership would have desired the restraints placed on us of not going near the mosque be lifted, then he would have taken that into consideration.
Thus proving that this whole thing is a direct violation of Freedom of Speech and that they are favoring the religion of Islam.
The City of Dearborn used the court as an instrument to prevent our protest from taking place today as scheduled, and has now violated our civil liberties by preventing us from exercising our freedom of speech as planned. We will be in contact with legal representation and plan to protest next week in front of the Islamic Center."

Peach Fuzz
4/23/2011, 01:42 PM
I'm all for rights n all. But as a pastor, he is no better than those extreme Islamics that kill because they believe something different. If I met him, he would be picking up his teeth for the **** storm he makes.

OhU1
4/23/2011, 01:44 PM
"Jones spoke in court and argued that he has the First Amendment right to protest outside the mosque."

I agree. What is different about this guy and the Westboro crowd's right to speech?

Hope the ACLU takes this case. Don't be surprised if they do BTW. This kind of thing is right up their alley just like when they defended the Klan's right to have a parade in Skokie Illinois.

StoopTroup
4/23/2011, 01:55 PM
Unfortunately....the Westboro Folks and many others instead of using good sense and being good promoters of Christianity...they decide it's best to start a war with people who don't believe in their own values....

sooner59
4/23/2011, 01:57 PM
What ever happened to WWJD?

Leroy Lizard
4/23/2011, 03:34 PM
I'm all for rights n all. But as a pastor, he is no better than those extreme Islamics that kill because they believe something different.

:eek:



Based on the decision Jones was required to submit a peace bond. The judge set the bond at $1.

IOW, we know we're violating your rights, but we hope that if we make the bond low enough you'll pay it and help make this go away.

Sooner98
4/23/2011, 04:57 PM
I'm all for rights n all. But as a pastor, he is no better than those extreme Islamics that kill because they believe something different.

Burning a book is equivalent to mass murder? :confused:

Gandalf_The_Grey
4/23/2011, 04:59 PM
Let's be serious for a minute, comparing burning a book to taking someone's life is beyond stupid. There is a huge difference between being a dickhead and a murderer.

StoopTroup
4/23/2011, 05:02 PM
What ever happened to WWJD?

What would Josh Do?

I'd say he'd look down field for an open receiver and then look to the flat or back to drop off the ball. Maybe a tight end on a crossing route.

87sooner
4/23/2011, 05:02 PM
Unfortunately....the Westboro Folks and many others instead of using good sense and being good promoters of Christianity...they decide it's best to start a war with people who don't believe in their own values....

this guy and the westboro people both want attention..
i agree....they have no sense..
but i think we're going down a dangerous path in this case where a court/jurors decide that someone cannot mount a public protest.

the courts have decided the westboro people have a right to protest....even at funerals...
will juries in the future decide for instance the tea party cannot demonstrate/protest against the government because it might turn out not to be "peaceful"?

just look to the middle east and china to see how important the right to public assembly is.

sappstuf
4/23/2011, 05:07 PM
A constitutional law professor says a trial and the brief jailing of two Florida pastors who wanted to demonstrate outside a Michigan mosque is “bizarre.”

Florida pastors Terry Jones and Wayne Sapp were briefly jailed Friday in Dearborn after refusing to pay a $1 peace bond following a trial that found they would breach the peace if allowed to hold a rally outside the Islamic Center of America, the Detroit Free Press reported Saturday.

“The judge should have thrown out the case,” said Robert Sedler, constitutional law professor at Wayne State University.

Sedler said the entire process was “bizarre” and that “the whole thing is unconstitutional.” He cited U.S. Supreme Court cases backing up Jones’ right to protest. The Michigan ACLU also criticized the case.

“This is a complete abuse of the court process, and all those involved should be ashamed,” said Rana Elmir of the ACLU Michigan office. “The prosecutor’s office and the Dearborn court turned the First Amendment on its head. What happened today should never have happened. This is a true miscarriage of Justice.”

Meanwhile in Indonesia....


Islamic militants involved in a plot to bomb an Indonesian cathedral ahead of Easter celebrations planned to film and broadcast the inferno. Indonesian police said 19 suspects, who had planted bombs beneath a gas pipeline at the Christ Cathedral near Jakarta, were part of a new terrorist cell inspired by al-Qaeda.

The bombs, which were defused in a 10-hour operation on Thursday, had been rigged to go off just as services at the 3,000-seat Roman Catholic church were taking place for Good Friday. Maj. Gen. Anton Bachrul Alam, spokesman for the national police, said the 19 suspects who led authorities to bombs planted beneath a gas pipeline near the Christ Cathedral Church just outside of Jakarta did not appear to be part of any large, existing terrorist organisation. Other bombs were left in bags not far from the entrance.

“At this moment, it looks like a new cell,” Maj Gen Alam said, adding that the suspects, all in their 30s and many of them university graduates, told police they had been planning to film the fiery explosion.

87sooner
4/23/2011, 05:20 PM
it really is amazing something like this happened in AMERICA.

OU_Sooners75
4/23/2011, 05:24 PM
So we should just tear these apart since we may offend some mooslums and their ideals?



First Amendment – Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly; right to petitionCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Second Amendment – Militia (United States), Sovereign state, Right to keep and bear arms.A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. [5]
Third Amendment – Protection from quartering of troops.No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.
Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Fifth Amendment – due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, eminent domain.No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Sixth Amendment – Trial by jury and rights of the accused; Confrontation Clause, speedy trial, public trial, right to counselIn all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.
Seventh Amendment – Civil trial by jury.In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Eighth Amendment – Prohibition of excessive bail and cruel and unusual punishment.Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
Ninth Amendment – Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Tenth Amendment – Powers of States and people.The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

So the government and juries have successfully taken our first amendment and are wanting to take our second amendment.

Bush successfully took our 4th amendment and threw it away.

What's next?

SoonerNate
4/23/2011, 05:28 PM
Well if that's the case it should be illegal now for protestors to burn the flag

OU_Sooners75
4/23/2011, 05:37 PM
Well if that's the case it should be illegal now for protestors to burn the flag

As it should be anyway. But it isnt. It isnt illegal to burn a Koran or Holy Bible either. But apparently it is illegal in America's mecca of mooslums (Dearborn, Michigan), to protest against the mooslum ideals!

sooner59
4/23/2011, 06:00 PM
What would Josh Do?

I'd say he'd look down field for an open receiver and then look to the flat or back to drop off the ball. Maybe a tight end on a crossing route.

Exactly. And what is he NOT doing?....burning books, ****ing with people over their religion, or taking away constitutional rights. In fact, NOT ONCE, NOT ****ING ONCE!!!...have I ever seen Josh take away someone's constitutional rights, regardless of how much he wanted to shovel pass a hammer at the guy's nuts.

Jus sayin...:cool:

Radar's Left Hand
4/23/2011, 07:29 PM
I wonder how this guy will be viewed in about 200 years?

Ctina
4/24/2011, 04:41 AM
He was asked to hold his protest in a permit free zone, but insisted that they would still hold their protest outside of the mosque.

It looks like technically he could protest. Just not where he wanted to. Of course a permit free zone could have been Timbuktu, but still, he was allowed to protest.

Either way, he's still a D-bag.

yermom
4/24/2011, 05:10 AM
He just needs to find one of Bush's "free speech zones"

MR2-Sooner86
4/24/2011, 08:16 AM
I'm all for rights n all. But as a pastor, he is no better than those extreme Islamics that kill because they believe something different.

You're an idiot if you believe this.

Jesus sh*ts on the American flag on South Park and what happens? Nothing.
Muhammad is never shown but is implied to be in a bear costume and what happens? Death threats and a call to cause violence if certain people's views aren't forced on everybody else.

Theo Van Gogh ring any bells to anybody?
How about those Dutch cartoon strips of Muhammad that lead to a bombing in 2008?
How about 9/11?

Now, show me where Christians have done the same.

The OKC Bombing doesn't count because he was an atheist.
I'll give you Nothern Ireland.
I'll give you abortion bombers.

Now, find me more examples. Go!

Shakadoodoo
4/24/2011, 09:53 AM
You all need to read the book
"Propaganda" By Edward L. Bernays

Saying ALL Muslims are like the extremist Muslims that the media shoves down our throats every chance they get is like....

Saying all Christians are like the KKK.....

I am not a Muslim myself but I know many Muslims personally and none of them have ever blown anything up, had family that were suicide bombers, beat on their wives, throw acid in people faces, want to kill all infidels, ect... And I would be willing to bet none of you know any Muslims that do that either.

Americans have been dumbed down so much that they will believe whatever the media throws out at them.

I have been shot, stabbed, robbed, blackballed, judged, jumped, seen my friends and family murdered, ect....... all done by "so called" Christians but I am not low literate enough to use their actions to define a whole Religion.

This book burning dude is just promoting ignorance!

sappstuf
4/24/2011, 10:06 AM
Seems like a good time to note that women in Saudia Arabia cannot vote, cannot run for office, cannot drive, need male or husband's approval to work or travel. Women must use separate entrances for almost everything.

That is not media spin... That is fact.

C&CDean
4/24/2011, 10:11 AM
I have been shot, stabbed, robbed, blackballed, judged, jumped, seen my friends and family murdered, ect....... all done by "so called" Christians but I am not low literate enough to use their actions to define a whole Religion.

Dude, c'mon. This is a giant steaming pile. How many of those people who "shot, stabbed, robbed, blackballed, judged, jumped, etc." did it in the name of Jesus Christ? How many of them did it specifically for religious reasons? How many of them even go to church?

**** poor analogy and not even in the same universe with the whole muslim deal. Just sayin'.

sappstuf
4/24/2011, 10:16 AM
I have been shot, stabbed, robbed, blackballed, judged, jumped, seen my friends and family murdered, ect....... all done by "so called" Christians but I am not low literate enough to use their actions to define a whole Religion.

But did they do it in the name of Christ? Did they yell "God is Great" the way "Allahu Akbar" right before they blew themselves up and in the process killed as many people as possible?

Because if they didn't kill in the name of Christ, then your entire point is meaningless.

All religions, social groups, races however you want to group people will have people who will cross social norms. There is a big difference between people of any religion that kill and people who kill in the name of a religion across the entire world.

This seems to be a fairly simple point that has entirely escaped you.

Shakadoodoo
4/24/2011, 10:42 AM
Dude, c'mon. This is a giant steaming pile. How many of those people who "shot, stabbed, robbed, blackballed, judged, jumped, etc." did it in the name of Jesus Christ? How many of them did it specifically for religious reasons? How many of them even go to church?

**** poor analogy and not even in the same universe with the whole muslim deal. Just sayin'.

All I am saying is that people are to easily manipulated and do not think for themselves. They believe whatever people want them to believe.

When 9 "so called" Muslims blow up our buildings then every Middle Easterner is suspect. Those same suspicions did not grow when the buildings were blew up in OKC.

Seems like the same double standard is being used here. And the average brainwashed, easy to manipulate, American Pawn will fall for this every time.

This country was founded on freedom of Religion and it should stay that way. Therefore we should frown upon anyone disrespecting other peoples Religion. That is only an equation for chaos. If a bunch of Muslims had a bible burning day I am sure all hell would break loose. But that would not happen because Muslims respect the bible as well.

Also, if you claim that Jesus is your savior than all of ones actions are in his name. Jesus and God's names are used so often.... how could you say it was not in his name.

Like Gandhi said - I love your Christ but I'm not to fond of Christians - Because Christians are nothing like their Christ.

Shakadoodoo
4/24/2011, 10:45 AM
But did they do it in the name of Christ? Did they yell "God is Great" the way "Allahu Akbar" right before they blew themselves up and in the process killed as many people as possible?

Because if they didn't kill in the name of Christ, then your entire point is meaningless.

All religions, social groups, races however you want to group people will have people who will cross social norms. There is a big difference between people of any religion that kill and people who kill in the name of a religion across the entire world.

This seems to be a fairly simple point that has entirely escaped you.

Everything that the KKK does is in the name of Jesus Christ. Have you listened to them?

Plus, if Jesus is your savior - all your actions should be in his name. I thought that was the moral to the story.

Shakadoodoo
4/24/2011, 10:52 AM
Seems like a good time to note that women in Saudia Arabia cannot vote, cannot run for office, cannot drive, need male or husband's approval to work or travel. Women must use separate entrances for almost everything.

That is not media spin... That is fact.

50 - 60 years ago America followed the same practices. So that is not that surprising.

texaspokieokie
4/24/2011, 10:58 AM
50 - 60 years ago America followed the same practices. So that is not that surprising.

more than 50-60 yrs ago.

women still can't drive.

sappstuf
4/24/2011, 11:02 AM
50 - 60 years ago America followed the same practices. So that is not that surprising.

Following a practice is different than being mandated by law.

Show me what laws were in effect 50-60 years ago that followed the same practices.

C&CDean
4/24/2011, 11:02 AM
more than 50-60 yrs ago.

women still can't drive.

Heh. And should't be allowed to vote...

Shakadoodoo
4/24/2011, 11:07 AM
Following a practice is different than being mandated by law.

Show me what laws were in effect 50-60 years ago that followed the same practices.

The women's suffrage movement and the civil rights movement were not for nothing.

OhU1
4/24/2011, 11:36 AM
Heh. And should't be allowed to vote...

Dean's right. And besides women have suffered long enough. We need to get together a petition to end women's suffrage! :P

Scott D
4/24/2011, 11:40 AM
let's get two things straight on this matter that even Jones appears to not comprehend.

1. He applied for and was denied a permit for his protest at the Mosque. Others who were protesting against him applied for those permits and were denied as well, they chose to move their protests to areas where they did not need a permit to protest.

2. Jones continually said after the denial of his permit that he was going to protest at the Mosque regardless of what the law said.

FWIW, the Westboro people protest in that 'free zone' area and unlike Jones tend to follow the letter of the law down to a T so that it makes it easier for them to sue.

Either way, I suspect that Thursday will be interesting up here.

sappstuf
4/24/2011, 11:46 AM
The women's suffrage movement and the civil rights movement were not for nothing.

Ahh.. Bringing up the civil rights movement because the math didn't add up with the woman's right to vote. Moving the goalposts, I see... Women have been able to vote for about 91 years a little longer than 50-60 years. Some states gave women the right to vote in the 1800s.

Once again I will ask you, what laws in the United states 50-60 years did not allow women to vote, run for office, drive, need male or husband's approval to work or travel and use separate entrances for almost everything.

I am anxiously awaiting your answer.

87sooner
4/24/2011, 11:48 AM
let's get two things straight on this matter that even Jones appears to not comprehend.

1. He applied for and was denied a permit for his protest at the Mosque. Others who were protesting against him applied for those permits and were denied as well, they chose to move their protests to areas where they did not need a permit to protest.

2. Jones continually said after the denial of his permit that he was going to protest at the Mosque regardless of what the law said.

FWIW, the Westboro people protest in that 'free zone' area and unlike Jones tend to follow the letter of the law down to a T so that it makes it easier for them to sue.

Either way, I suspect that Thursday will be interesting up here.


since when is it required to get a permit to protest/demonstrate in this country?

sappstuf
4/24/2011, 12:02 PM
let's get two things straight on this matter that even Jones appears to not comprehend.

1. He applied for and was denied a permit for his protest at the Mosque. Others who were protesting against him applied for those permits and were denied as well, they chose to move their protests to areas where they did not need a permit to protest.

2. Jones continually said after the denial of his permit that he was going to protest at the Mosque regardless of what the law said.

FWIW, the Westboro people protest in that 'free zone' area and unlike Jones tend to follow the letter of the law down to a T so that it makes it easier for them to sue.

Either way, I suspect that Thursday will be interesting up here.

They also offered him the option of a paying a "peace bond" of up to $100K to pay for any police action that might be needed and he then could protest in front of the mosque.

I guess the police think that muslims are animals who cannot control themselves....

Jones has not threatened anyone or their property. You cannot force someone to pay for the anticipated actions of others just because they might not like what you say.

Gandalf_The_Grey
4/24/2011, 12:03 PM
So if I want to have a demonstration in the Middle of the highway, I should be allowed to?

sappstuf
4/24/2011, 12:13 PM
So if I want to have a demonstration in the Middle of the highway, I should be allowed to?

Does Selma to Montgomery ring a bell?

sooner59
4/24/2011, 12:15 PM
If you don't demonstrate in the middle of I-35...you are racist.

sappstuf
4/24/2011, 12:19 PM
If you don't demonstrate in the middle of I-35...you are racist.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sooner59 again.

Shakadoodoo
4/24/2011, 12:31 PM
Ahh.. Bringing up the civil rights movement because the math didn't add up with the woman's right to vote. Moving the goalposts, I see... Women have been able to vote for about 91 years a little longer than 50-60 years. Some states gave women the right to vote in the 1800s.

Once again I will ask you, what laws in the United states 50-60 years did not allow women to vote, run for office, drive, need male or husband's approval to work or travel and use separate entrances for almost everything.

I am anxiously awaiting your answer.

Actually I was thinking of the Civil Rights movement at first (not because one is more important than the other but because I am black - and I am not a woman) but...- Human Rights of all people are important. Not just woman - I see it has been since the 1920's for the woman suffrage movement. So yes I was off 30 years on the woman.

In any case - woman are still treated as less in western society as well. It is written in the religion. It is womans fault for all the woes in the world. The original Trinity was man, woman, and child - the west had such a problem with this that the switched out the woman for the holy ghost (which wiccans and other "occult" religions say represent a feminine principal) but no one in America will tell you that. I have never seen a man give birth but God is a man. Woman came from a man? All humans I see are cut from the umbilical chord from their mother - but yet all living things come from a man? It even states that Mary was born of an Immaculate Conception in the lost books of the bible - but Men made a choice to leave that out.

Woman are still not treated equal in the workplace. Forced woman prostitution is rampant in the USA. A black man became President before a white woman - that should tell you everything. These attitudes are derived from the patriarchal society that the west thrives on.

So yes, woman are doing better than woman in some of the other countries but attitudes of woman are still pretty barbaric, even here in the USA so it is not surprising that other countries still have problems with woman.

olevetonahill
4/24/2011, 12:35 PM
Yer as full of shat as a Black dude.:P

yermom
4/24/2011, 12:35 PM
Everything that the KKK does is in the name of Jesus Christ. Have you listened to them?

Plus, if Jesus is your savior - all your actions should be in his name. I thought that was the moral to the story.

where do you think they got their sweet outfits from?

old school KKK:
http://rexcurry.net/kkk-ku-klux-klan2.jpg

this week in Spain:
http://www.dismalworld.com/im/world_tour/easter-in-spain-during-the-holy-week-1.jpg

MR2-Sooner86
4/24/2011, 12:43 PM
Saying all Christians are like the KKK.....

An organization that maybe has 5,000 members total?

It is nothing like the places in Europe that are nearly entirely Islam neighborhoods and white Europeans are told they shouldn't go there.
Nothing like the Muslims that protest by blocking the streets, threatening people, and if you bring attention to it, like Maxime Lepante, you get death threats.
Nothing like European leaders coming out saying multiculturalism has failed in regards to the Islamic influence. Yeah, nothing like that at all.

I'm also glad you mentioned the KKK because anti-semitism isn't a big thing in the Middle East or to Muslims.


I have been shot, stabbed, robbed, blackballed, judged, jumped, seen my friends and family murdered, ect....... all done by "so called" Christians but I am not low literate enough to use their actions to define a whole Religion.

Yet Theo Van Gogh was attacked by a Muslim and was attacked for religious reasons. Not to mention Trey and Matt were given the same warning for South Park. How about that Dutch cartoonist getting attacked and having go into hiding? How about those Dutch embassys getting attacked and set on fire?

Again, show me where Christians have done the same?


When 9 "so called" Muslims blow up our buildings then every Middle Easterner is suspect. Those same suspicions did not grow when the buildings were blew up in OKC.

Lets see, we had a white militia member angry at the government for Waco plotting revenge. We had nine guys from the Middle East carry out an attack on the same buildings that were attacked eight years earlier from a Islamic terrorist organization.

Is it that hard to connect the dots for you or are you one of those "truthers" who think Bush did it? I'm just curious.


Seems like the same double standard is being used here. And the average brainwashed, easy to manipulate, American Pawn will fall for this every time.

Big words but can you back them up? I already know that answer and it's "no" because if you had an argument you'd be making it and not going in circles.


This country was founded on freedom of Religion and it should stay that way. Therefore we should frown upon anyone disrespecting other peoples Religion. That is only an equation for chaos.

They did that in Europe thinking it'll be alright. What happened? They came in, demanded people change for them, and when they didn't get their way they threated with violence and murder. So they ignored it and figured they could "live and let live" but it's coming to a head now.


If a bunch of Muslims had a bible burning day I am sure all hell would break loose. But that would not happen because Muslims respect the bible as well.

The father of a Muslim boy expelled for urinating on the Bible, burning pages from it then spitting on it has lashed out at the school, saying it failed to protect and control his son. (http://www.news.com.au/top-stories/father-of-expelled-muslim-boy-blames-school/story-e6frfkp9-111111265182)

Desecration at the church of St. Paul in the village ‘Chak 77-RB’, ‘Lohekay’, about 30 kilometers from Faisalabad: on December 17, suspects burned a bible and other sacred texts, leaving a letter threatening Christians that they will "burn in the fire of hell" if they do not convert to Islam.
(http://www.speroforum.com/a/17283/Muslims-burn-Bible-in-Pakistan)


Like Gandhi said - I love your Christ but I'm not to fond of Christians - Because Christians are nothing like their Christ.

Muhammad or Christ? A man who taught love or a murderous pedophile?


50 - 60 years ago America followed the same practices. So that is not that surprising.

If you can find me some stories of Christians doing this I'd really appriciate it. Thanks.

Saudi woman killed for chatting on Facebook
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1583420/Saudi-woman-killed-for-chatting-on-Facebook.html)

200 lashes for Saudi gang rape victim
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569674/200-lashes-for-Saudi-gang-rape-victim.html)

An American businesswoman is fearing for her life after she was arrested for having a coffee with a male workmate in a Starbucks in Saudi Arabia. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1579285/Mother-arrested-for-having-coffee-in-Starbucks.html)

In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been brutally murdered by family members. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html)

The women are killed, police say, because they failed to wear a headscarf or because they ignored other "rules" that secretive fundamentalist groups want to enforce. (http://articles.cnn.com/2008-02-08/world/iraq.women_1_abdul-jalil-khalaf-basra-honor-killings?_s=PM:WORLD)

Woman stoned for cheating on her husband (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2010/07/iran-stoning-sakineh-ashtiani.html)

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/photos/women-stoning/images/Woman%20Stoning%20Iran.jpg
Stoning victim in Iran.


Everything that the KKK does is in the name of Jesus Christ.

You're partially right. The main purpose of the Klan was to keep blacks from voting and to "keep them in place." It had nothing to do with religion. They're like the religious right in feeling "gay rights" and things of that nature destory the "white Christian American social fabric."


I think it can be summed up nicely here.

RUEaMA4gRIk

Peach Fuzz
4/24/2011, 01:51 PM
Burning a book is equivalent to mass murder? :confused:

Never said it was the same. But the way he puts innocent people in harms way, fully knowing what the reactions will probably be after burning/protests, then yes, I don't think he is any better than extreme Islamics.

MsProudSooner2
4/24/2011, 02:18 PM
I'm not sure if this breaks any rules over here or not. If so, my bad.

http://dipdip.org/upload/meh.ro5017_1281388562.jpg

Shakadoodoo
4/24/2011, 03:09 PM
An organization that maybe has 5,000 members total?

I am sure you know those numbers are way greater than that. The may not all still have the name KKK but they definitely have the same agenda!


It is nothing like the places in Europe that are nearly entirely Islam neighborhoods and white Europeans are told they shouldn't go there.
Nothing like the Muslims that protest by blocking the streets, threatening people, and if you bring attention to it, like Maxime Lepante, you get death threats.
Nothing like European leaders coming out saying multiculturalism has failed in regards to the Islamic influence. Yeah, nothing like that at all.

Christianity and Islam are murderous religions. Religion itself is murderous-




I'm also glad you mentioned the KKK because anti-semitism isn't a big thing in the Middle East or to Muslims.



People in the middle east are not Anti-Semitic - they are Semitic and they follow a Semitic Prophet and a Semitic God. They would have to be anti-themselves in order to be anti-Semitic.... They may be anti-European Jew but not anti-Semitic - That term is used for propaganda!



Yet Theo Van Gogh was attacked by a Muslim and was attacked for religious reasons. Not to mention Trey and Matt were given the same warning for South Park. How about that Dutch cartoonist getting attacked and having go into hiding? How about those Dutch embassys getting attacked and set on fire?

Again, show me where Christians have done the same?


First off - South Park is trash! On all levels!

Also - so you are telling me that No Christians are guilty of terrorist acts against others? You would have to really be in denial for saying that. I am sure there is not a religion on this earth that is not guilty of this.

Every time I watch TV - I see Muslims being portrayed as evil. Radio Talk show..... - I can not move my dial fast enough not to hear Mike Savage and numerous others stereotyping Muslims. Muslims are treated like s*** by Christians in America..... I guarantee there are thousands of instances of Christians whooping up on Muslims - It may not get publicized the same way but the hatred that the majority of Christian Americans have against Muslims - you would have to be very gullible to think otherwise.


Hero Muslim saves Jew from Christian Thugs on NY Subway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlwc0mE0lCU&feature=related

abc Primetime - How's Muslims Treated in America ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqbQWxHIn4U




Lets see, we had a white militia member angry at the government for Waco plotting revenge. We had nine guys from the Middle East carry out an attack on the same buildings that were attacked eight years earlier from a Islamic terrorist organization.

Is it that hard to connect the dots for you or are you one of those "truthers" who think Bush did it? I'm just curious.

If you think that the OKC buildings being blown up was as simple as ONE white man that was mad about the government and wanted revenge because of Waco... is that simple - (you think thats all it was to it???) If you believe that you are gullible, uninformed.... something - I guess a good thing is that you must have absolutely no prejudiced about anything or anyone and have a wonderful heart...... if you think there are not 1000's of people that feel just like McViegh - and - that are plotting the same things right now, as we speak.....

They did not find the people who were involved right away and I doubt very seriously that they know all the answers to what really happened and all who were involved.





Big words but can you back them up? I already know that answer and it's "no" because if you had an argument you'd be making it and not going in circles.

Big words? I guess.... That is like 6th grade reading isn't it? I'm not going in circles - just making the same point - most people believe what they hear and never do any research to see if there is truth behind the claim.




They did that in Europe thinking it'll be alright. What happened? They came in, demanded people change for them, and when they didn't get their way they threated with violence and murder. So they ignored it and figured they could "live and let live" but it's coming to a head now.


So you are saying there should be no freedom of religion?



Muhammad or Christ? A man who taught love or a murderous pedophile?

He did say Christ and Christians, right





You're partially right. The main purpose of the Klan was to keep blacks from voting and to "keep them in place." It had nothing to do with religion. They're like the religious right in feeling "gay rights" and things of that nature destory the "white Christian American social fabric."

They are Extreme Christan Terrorist. Plain and simple

C&CDean
4/24/2011, 07:22 PM
Shak,

I like you and what you do for the kids, but you're so far off base here it's almost laughable. It ain't apples to oranges, it's figs to a T-bone steak. What the muslims have done in the WORLD the past decade or two is nothing short of barbarianism. You cannot condone/dismiss/blow off/compare to "christian" anything those POS mother****ers have done. Is it every one of them? Of course not, but there's a whole bunch of them that wants only one thing - you and me dead. Period. And they'll do anything to achieve it.

I just wish people wouldn't have to go "what about the christians" when there's a discussion on what the muslims are doing to the world. Religious christians ain't killing people. Religious christians ain't stoning/killing their own. Religious christians aren't commiting crime in the name of the Lord. Shirley you can see the difference?

C&CDean
4/24/2011, 07:24 PM
Oh yeah, let me go ahead and do the compulsory:


what about the abortion bombers? what about McVeigh? what about the crusades? what about the KKK? Meh.

yermom
4/24/2011, 07:31 PM
Shak,

I like you and what you do for the kids, but you're so far off base here it's almost laughable. It ain't apples to oranges, it's figs to a T-bone steak. What the muslims have done in the WORLD the past decade or two is nothing short of barbarianism. You cannot condone/dismiss/blow off/compare to "christian" anything those POS mother****ers have done. Is it every one of them? Of course not, but there's a whole bunch of them that wants only one thing - you and me dead. Period. And they'll do anything to achieve it.

I just wish people wouldn't have to go "what about the christians" when there's a discussion on what the muslims are doing to the world. Religious christians ain't killing people. Religious christians ain't stoning/killing their own. Religious christians aren't commiting crime in the name of the Lord. Shirley you can see the difference?

it's not "religious Muslims" it's a small subset of Muslims

the point is, you take offense to comparing the actions of the KKK to the actions of all Christians. it's the same thing.

C&CDean
4/24/2011, 07:37 PM
it's not "religious Muslims" it's a small subset of Muslims

the point is, you take offense to comparing the actions of the KKK to the actions of all Christians. it's the same thing.

Wrong. When's the last time the KKK burned a cross on a lawn? When's the last time the KKK strung somebody from a tree? When's the last time the KKK cut off a head or blew up a mother****er?

I work with several muslims. They don't talk about their religion - other than to say they can't wait to eat that night during ramadamadingdong. They're OK folks. If the **** hit the fan would I trust them? Oh hells no. They've never once denounced any of the bull**** the terrorists in this world do.

I know some folks in England/Europe. The muslims are literally taking the place over. Creating large neighborhoods/ghettos and pretty much forcing the normal folks out. They're turning once prosperous areas into muslim slums. They're everywhere man. Taking over the world one city at a time. Meanwhile, yermom fiddles...

MR2-Sooner86
4/24/2011, 07:45 PM
It's a hard job re-educating people when they're wrong but somebody has to do it. Hopefully this time I can get a proper rebuttal.


I am sure you know those numbers are way greater than that. The may not all still have the name KKK but they definitely have the same agenda!

Look it up, they have around 150 chapters and around 8,000, maybe 10,000 at the very most, members nationwide.

Now, as for people having the same agenda, couldn't the same be said about Islam? Many people may not be in the streets but they could think the same? See where this argument can go?


Christianity and Islam are murderous religions. Religion itself is murderous-

You completely ignore the argument and fall back on a generalized statement.


People in the middle east are not Anti-Semitic - they are Semitic and they follow a Semitic Prophet and a Semitic God. They would have to be anti-themselves in order to be anti-Semitic.... They may be anti-European Jew but not anti-Semitic - That term is used for propaganda!

an·ti–Sem·i·tism noun
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

So Muslims don't have a hate or distrust for Jews, the Jewish people, or Israel? Do you really want to take that side?

We can throw out the argument that as the European Islamic population rises, so does anti-semitic thought.

I mean because it has nothing to do with the Jewish people rejecting Muhammad (http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/jews.htm) that made him upset which was put into the Quran (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/koranjews.html) and has everything to do with the state of Israel. Yup, that's exactly it.


First off - South Park is trash! On all levels!

Yet you ignore the fact that they made fun of Jesus more than Muhammad yet they got the death threats over Muhammad. I simply asked for the outraged Christians issuing them death threats. I'm still waiting on that one.


Also - so you are telling me that No Christians are guilty of terrorist acts against others? You would have to really be in denial for saying that. I am sure there is not a religion on this earth that is not guilty of this.

Here comes the spin.

I never told you anything or said they weren't. I simply asked for Christian equivalents to the Islamic acts I mentioned.

I'll go over them again since you obviously forget to answer and didn't ignore the question.

Have Christians murdered an author criticizing their religion like Muslims did to Theo Van Gogh?
Have Christians protested, bombed, and set on fire embassies of countries that had a newspaper with satirical cartoons of Jesus?
Again, have Christians issued death threats to Trey Parker and Matt Stone of South Park for their mocking of Jesus?
Have Christians attempted to assassinate an author of non-fiction like Muslims tried to do to Salman Rushdie for his book The Satanic Versus?
Have Christians hijacked planes for religious purposes?

I'll be waiting for that reply.


Every time I watch TV - I see Muslims being portrayed as evil. Radio Talk show..... - I can not move my dial fast enough not to hear Mike Savage and numerous others stereotyping Muslims. Muslims are treated like s*** by Christians in America..... I guarantee there are thousands of instances of Christians whooping up on Muslims - It may not get publicized the same way but the hatred that the majority of Christian Americans have against Muslims - you would have to be very gullible to think otherwise.

Thousands of instances? Then I'm sure you have no problem finding me stories in the news of this racist activity then, correct? If you can't find it, how do you know it's there? If the story isn't reported, how do you know it happened?

I mean we know this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8447450.stm) kind of stuff (http://www.aina.org/news/20110304222016.htm) never happens (http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Punjab,-Muslims-attack-a-Christian-village-21324.html) at all (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/ChristianAttacks.htm).


Hero Muslim saves Jew from Christian Thugs on NY Subway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlwc0mE0lCU&feature=related

abc Primetime - How's Muslims Treated in America ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqbQWxHIn4U

I can pull Youtube videos as well. Maybe if Muslims stood up to this sort of thing they wouldn't get such a backlash. I mean the woman in that video wasn't served because of her veil. Must be harmless because there's no reason European countries are trying to ban it.

hU7T5fbJbq0

I'd also like a video or stories showing the same problems associated with European Islam with European Christians. If both religions are equal, you shouldn't have any trouble with that.

I mean Muslims in France kidnapped a Jew Ilan Halimi, called his parents, and then murdered him over the phone while repeating verses from the Quran. I'm sure you can find a news story of Christians doing the same thing.


If you think that the OKC buildings being blown up was as simple as ONE white man that was mad about the government and wanted revenge because of Waco... is that simple - (you think thats all it was to it???) If you believe that you are gullible, uninformed.... something -

I'm uninformed and gullible for him admitting he did it to avenge Waco and Ruby Ridge (http://www.rickross.com/reference/mcveigh/mcveigh6.html)?


I guess a good thing is that you must have absolutely no prejudiced about anything or anyone and have a wonderful heart...... if you think there are not 1000's of people that feel just like McViegh - and - that are plotting the same things right now, as we speak.....

Thousands planning the same thing as we speak? Have any evidence of that claim?


They did not find the people who were involved right away and I doubt very seriously that they know all the answers to what really happened and all who were involved.

Actually we can look at the cameras from the airport and know who did it, where they came from, and what their motives were. We know they were follows of the religion of Islam. Not to mention we have Osama Bin Ladin claiming he was behind it. What more do you want to know?


Big words? I guess.... That is like 6th grade reading isn't it? I'm not going in circles - just making the same point - most people believe what they hear and never do any research to see if there is truth behind the claim.

Yes, big words, you're throwing out there. What I mean is you're making very wild claims. Here lets us go over, again, what you said.

"Seems like the same double standard is being used here. And the average brainwashed, easy to manipulate, American Pawn will fall for this every time."

As for you running in circles, you are doing it because you really didn't answer anything I brought forth but just went back to the same talking points.


So you are saying there should be no freedom of religion?

Did I say that? No, you're trying to find something that isn't there. The fact of the matter is that Europe's multiculturalism and political correctness backfired big time on them.

You're free to worship anyway you like but you start infringing on the rights of others, that's a big no no. I'd say threatening people with violence and murder is infringing on their rights.


He did say Christ and Christians, right

I'm saying Christians might not be like Christ but Muslims sure are like Muhammad.


They are Extreme Christan Terrorist. Plain and simple

Have anything to back this up? I don't seem to recall any explosions or murders that the KKK has taken responsibility for.

Now for some videos of Christopher Hitchens because the guy is just awesome. Also, yes, he is an atheist in case anybody is wondering.

j04osq6QWX8&feature

J7aS7m3odqI

He makes a great point, if these people are a small portion of the Muslim population, why are we giving in to this lynch mob? If most Muslims aren't angry about the Dutch cartoon or a book criticizing their religion, why do we pay attention to them if they're a small minority and give in to their demands by limiting free speech?

Ardmore_Sooner
4/24/2011, 09:45 PM
Never said it was the same. But the way he puts innocent people in harms way, fully knowing what the reactions will probably be after burning/protests, then yes, I don't think he is any better than extreme Islamics.

I know that by eating Taco Bell I will put many of my family, friends, coworkers, and many innocent people in harms way. But I do it anyways...

Shakadoodoo
4/25/2011, 10:56 AM
Look it up, they have around 150 chapters and around 8,000, maybe 10,000 at the very most, members nationwide.

Now, as for people having the same agenda, couldn't the same be said about Islam? Many people may not be in the streets but they could think the same? See where this argument can go?

When I say KKK I mean white supremacist.

In 2008 this website http://www.stormfront.org/forum/ - had more than 144,000 members in 2008.

There are 1002 hate groups according to Southern Poverty Law Center.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map

....Most of them are white supremacist groups. Also - I am sure their number is way higher anyway - The militia groups get completely off the grid - So how could you have a real answer to that. I guess you think they all fill out a census report and register as white supremacist or something. Or when they get questioned they tell you about everyone that is in involved and who they do business with. I am shocked that you only think that up to 10,000 people are involved with groups like these. I would be willing to guarantee you that there are way more than 10,000 white supremacist in prison alone!


http://stupidevilbastard.com/2011/02/southern-poverty-law-center-reports-number-of-hate-groups-in-america-at-all-time-high/

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-23/us/splc.hate.groups_1_patriot-groups-southern-poverty-law-center-mark-potok?_s=PM:US

http://www.adl.org/racist_skinheads/wsgwssm.asp

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-10-20-hategroups_N.htm

http://www.thegrio.com/news/southern-poverty-law-center-mlk-parade-bomb-suspect-was-avid-neo-nazi.php

http://imagine2050.newcomm.org/2011/03/09/southern-poverty-law-center-releases-report-on-state-legislators-for-legal-immigration/



an•ti–Sem•i•tism noun
: hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group

So Muslims don't have a hate or distrust for Jews, the Jewish people, or Israel? Do you really want to take that side?

We can throw out the argument that as the European Islamic population rises, so does anti-semitic thought.

I mean because it has nothing to do with the Jewish people rejecting Muhammad that made him upset which was put into the Quran and has everything to do with the state of Israel. Yup, that's exactly it.

Like I said - That is a term used for propaganda.


Anti
–noun, plural -tis.
a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc.


Semite

The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites


an•ti•black   
–adjective
Hostile or opposed to black people:


an•ti-white
adj.
Hostile or opposed to white people:


an•ti•a•bor•tion
adj.
Opposed to induced abortion:



Now Every time Anti is being used..... the next word is what the person is anti against.

If someone is anti-racist - I would assume that they are opposed to racism

If someone says they are anti-education - I would assume they were opposed to education

If someone says they are anti-sooner - I would assume they were opposed to the Oklahoma Sooners, as well as being a little insane -

So I am sure you see where I am going - Anti-Semite should follow this same rule -

Anti-Semite should mean - someone who is opposed to Semites.

Middle Easterners are Semites.

So why was that the only "anti" phrase changed to mean specifically Jews - Because of Prophaganda!




You completely ignore the argument and fall back on a generalized statement.


Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

Religion is derived from the Latin religiō, the ultimate origins of which are obscure. One possibility is derivation from a reduplicated *le-ligare, an interpretation traced to Cicero connecting lego "read", i.e. re (again) + lego in the sense of "choose", "go over again" or "consider carefully". Modern scholars such as Tom Harpur and Joseph Campbell favor the derivation from ligare "bind, connect", probably from a prefixed re-ligare, i.e. re (again) + ligare or "to reconnect," which was made prominent by St. Augustine, following the interpretation of Lactantius.



So basically Re-Ligion means to re-bind - re-connect - re-choose - re-teach ect....

So that means Preachers, Rabbis, ect... had to re-bind/connect/choose/teach the uneducated/uninformed masses about the word of God. The problem is that many of these Religious Leaders were only doing this to seek power, land ect...

And when people are seeking money, land, and power they will murder to get it hence the crusades, Spanish Inquisition, French Wars of Religion, Thirty Years War, Taiping Rebellion, ect...

So my point is when you are trying to say Islam is more Murderous than Christianity - I would beg to differ - all Religions are Murderous - it is the nature of religion itself. When I was in Addis Ababa a brutha told me the only reason many people in Ethiopia... did not like the Christian Missionaries was because when they come – they always have a handful of Bibles. By the time the natives figure out what is going on, the natives have all the Bibles and the foreigners have all the land. They were not to fond of Arabs/Persians for the same reasons. (as a side note - many Ethiopians follow an oldest form of Christianity on the planet)

People should concentrate on being more spiritual that religious. All religion does is divide and conquer us!



Yet you ignore the fact that they made fun of Jesus more than Muhammad yet they got the death threats over Muhammad. I simply asked for the outraged Christians issuing them death threats. I'm still waiting on that one.

I ignore the show all together - It is trash. I would not know if they were speaking bad about Jesus, Mohammad, or anyone else because I do not watch it, I do not allow my kids to watch it, I do not read articles about - I have no Idea about the show. I saw one show about Sadam being the Devils B**** and that was enough for me. It is trash!!!!!


Here comes the spin.

I never told you anything or said they weren't. I simply asked for Christian equivalents to the Islamic acts I mentioned.

I'll go over them again since you obviously forget to answer and didn't ignore the question.

Have Christians murdered an author criticizing their religion like Muslims did to Theo Van Gogh?
Have Christians protested, bombed, and set on fire embassies of countries that had a newspaper with satirical cartoons of Jesus?
Again, have Christians issued death threats to Trey Parker and Matt Stone of South Park for their mocking of Jesus?
Have Christians attempted to assassinate an author of non-fiction like Muslims tried to do to Salman Rushdie for his book The Satanic Versus?
Have Christians hijacked planes for religious purposes?

I'll be waiting for that reply.

Nowhere in the bible does it say their should be no pictures of Jesus drawn so why would this happin. If the scriptures said no pictures of Jesus should be drawn than that would be a legit comparason to make... But it does not. But I am sure of one thing and I should not have to search for quotes and find videos to prove this to you. People will fight and die for their Religion and if Christians felt their religion was being disrespected in any way - there would be hell to pay.


Thousands of instances? Then I'm sure you have no problem finding me stories in the news of this racist activity then, correct? If you can't find it, how do you know it's there? If the story isn't reported, how do you know it happened?

I mean we know this kind of stuff never happens at all.


Persecution of Muslims in The United States of America
In the aftermath of 9/11, hate crimes against people of Middle-Eastern descent increased from 354 attacks in 2000 to 1,501 attacks in 2001.[149] Among the victims of the backlash was a Middle-Eastern man in Houston, Texas who was shot and wounded after an assailant accused him of "blowing up the country"[150] and four immigrants shot and killed by a man named Larme Price who confessed to killing them as "revenge" for the September 11 attacks.[151] Although Price described his victims as Arabs, only one was from an Arab country. This appears to be a trend; on account of stereotypes of Arabs, several non-Arab, non-Muslim groups were subjected to attacks in the wake of 9/11, including several Sikh men attacked for wearing their religiously mandated turban.[152] According to a report prepared by the Arab American Institute, three days after the Oklahoma City bombing, "more than 200 serious hate crimes were committed against Arab Americans and American Muslims. The same was true in the days following September 11."[150]
The Dove World Outreach Centre church in Gainesville, Florida planned to burn Qurans on the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. Despite warning from the military leadership in the Afghan War, Terry Jones, the pastor of the centre, said it would be "tragic" if anybody's life was lost as a result of the planned Quran burning. While he added "Still, I must say that we feel that we must sooner or later stand up to Islam, and if we don't, it's not going to go away." His church's website claims to "expose Islam" as a "violent and oppressive religion;" it also displays a sign reading "Islam of the Devil."[153]
On January 24, 2011, Dearborn Police arrested and jailed on a terrorism charge 63-year old Army veteran from California, Roger Stockham, for allegedly attempting to blow up the Islamic Center of America, the largest mosque in Detroit. Police said that Stockham "had a long history of being angry with the United States government" and was already known to law enforcement officials in other parts of the country and that he drove from California and came to Dearborn because of its large Muslim population. The police received early warnings of the attack from an employee at a Detroit bar who overheard threats made by Stockham.



There are many more and if you go into depth - you will find more than that! This country is 90% Christian. So what on earth would make you think their is more Muslim to Christian percusition here than the other way around.

Shakadoodoo
4/25/2011, 10:57 AM
I can pull Youtube videos as well. Maybe if Muslims stood up to this sort of thing they wouldn't get such a backlash. I mean the woman in that video wasn't served because of her veil. Must be harmless because there's no reason European countries are trying to ban it.



I'd also like a video or stories showing the same problems associated with European Islam with European Christians. If both religions are equal, you shouldn't have any trouble with that.

I mean Muslims in France kidnapped a Jew Ilan Halimi, called his parents, and then murdered him over the phone while repeating verses from the Quran. I'm sure you can find a news story of Christians doing the same thing.



Brutal attack on Imam of London's central Mosque (http://motamarusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=131:brutal-attack-on-imam-of-londons-central-mosque&catid=13:subarticles)



Vandals desecrate graves of Muslim soldiers with swastikas and a pig's head in French war cemetery (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-557595/Vandals-desecrate-graves-Muslim-soldiers-swastikas-pigs-head-French-war-cemetery.html#ixzz1KXRizlQ8)


Earlier this month Terence Gavan, a former BNP member, was convicted of manufacturing a huge array of firearms and explosives, ranging from nail-bombs and machine guns to a rocket launcher. Gavan claimed that he had a "fascination with things that go bang", but others highlight that he felt he had to defend his fellow countrymen fighting Muslims in foreign lands. Gavan wasn't on the counter-terrorist radar – the spotlight of attention wasn't focused on him, but on Muslims as a threat to Britain, rather than British threats to Muslims. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8462205.stm)


Five and a half years for boy who blinded Muslim (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1479469/Five-and-a-half-years-for-boy-who-blinded-Muslim.html)



UK to face more racial violence? (http://rt.com/news/britain-migration-racial-violence/)

Murdered Muslim, who was brutally beaten to death in front of his three year old granddaughter, was buried in South London (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBmd0iwkIC8)


Murder of Marwa El-Sherbini (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5ahc3zULCw)



Persecution of Muslims in post-Soviet Russia
Due to the large activity of Islamic Chechen terrorism in Russia: Budyonnovsk hospital hostage crisis with 129 victims, Kizlyar hospital hostage crisis with 100 victims, Ferry hijacking, Moscow theater hostage crisis with 129 victims, Riyadus-Salikhin's bombing in Moscow and Yessentuki[138] with 47 victims, Beslan school hostage crisis with 385 children victims, Russian apartment bombings with 300 victims carried by Muslim society and the growth of Tajik organized crime,[139] many Russians (including authorities) have associated Islam and Muslims with terrorism and domestic crimes.[140][141][142][143] In August 2007 a video of 2 ethnic Russian neo-Nazis beheading two Muslim men, one from Dagestan in the Caucasus and one from Tajikistan appeared on the internet.[144] In February 2004, a nine-year old Tajik girl was stabbed to death in Saint Petersburg by suspected far-right skinheads.[145][146] In December 2008 an email, containing a picture of the severed head of a man identified as Salekh Azizov , was sent to the Moscow Human Rights Bureau. It was sent by a group called Russian Nationalists' Combat Group and has led to protests from the Tajik Government.[147] Despite these facts with large resonance the quantity of victims between Tajik immigrants[147] is two time less than average quantity of victims per million inhabitants in Russia in 2008.[148]




Islamophobia in Europe
Main article: Islamophobia
See also: Islam in Europe
Ziauddin Sardar an Islamic scholar writes in The New Statesman that Islamophobia is a widespread European phenomenon, so widespread that he asks whether Muslims will be victims of the next pogroms.[127] He writes that each country has its extremes, citing Jean-Marie Le Pen in France; Pim Fortuyn, who was assassinated (by a non-Muslim), in the Netherlands; and Philippe Van der Sande of Vlaams Blok, a Flemish nationalist party founded in Belgium. Filip Dewinter, the leader of the nationalist Flemish "Vlaams Belang" has said that his party is "Islamophobic." He said: "Yes, we are afraid of Islam. The Islamisation of Europe is a frightening thing."[128]
Sardar argues that Europe is "post-colonial, but ambivalent." Minorities are regarded as acceptable as an underclass of menial workers, but if they want to be upwardly mobile, as Sardar says young Muslims do, the prejudice rises to the surface. Wolfram Richter, professor of economics at Dortmund University of Technology, told Sardar: "I am afraid we have not learned from our history. My main fear is that what we did to Jews we may now do to Muslims. The next holocaust would be against Muslims."


EUMC report
The largest monitoring project to be commissioned about Islamophobia was undertaken following 9/11 by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC). Their May 2002 report "Summary report on Islamophobia in the EU after 11 September 2001", written by Dr. Chris Allen and Jorgen S. Nielsen of the University of Birmingham, was based on 75 reports – 15 from each EU member nation.[129]
The report highlighted the regularity with which ordinary Muslims became targets of abusive and sometimes violent retaliatory attacks after 9/11. Despite localized differences within each member nation, the recurrence of attacks on recognizable and visible traits of Islam and Muslims was the report's most significant finding. The attacks took the form of verbal abuse; blaming all Muslims for terrorist attacks; women having their hijab torn from their heads; male and female Muslims being spat at; children being called "Usama"; and random violent assaults, which left victims hospitalized, and on one occasion, left a victim paralyzed.[129]
The report also discussed the representation of Muslims in the media. Inherent negativity, stereotypical images, fantastical representations, and exaggerated caricatures were all identified. The report concluded that "a greater receptivity towards anti-Muslim and other xenophobic ideas and sentiments has, and may well continue, to become more tolerated."


Israel
In May 2010, a mosque in the West Bank was destroyed in an arson attack.[155] In previous months, other mosques had been attacked; some were vandalised with Hebrew graffiti and other mosques have been destroyed or damaged by arson in the past.[155] In June 2010, there were further acts of vandalism against mosques by Israelis. In northern Israel the walls of mosques were spray painted with the Star of David as well as messages such as "There will be war over Judea and Samaria" and "This structure is marked for demolition".[156]

I hope there is no need to keep going.... Since you forced me to do research - This is way more widespread than I thought.

I have also been reading where Christians claim Muslim Prosecution for just about anything. If a Muslim comes around some Christians and passes gas - then he will probably get accused of Persecuting Christians.



I'm uninformed and gullible for him admitting he did it to avenge Waco and Ruby Ridge?

McViegh died with a straight face like he had no fear. And he was regarded as a hero while he was locked up. He felt like he died as a martyr and he certainly would not of implicated anyone else that was involved. The bombing in OKC was bigger that one man.

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mcveigh/conspirators.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXGldfK-sa0



Actually we can look at the cameras from the airport and know who did it, where they came from, and what their motives were. We know they were follows of the religion of Islam. Not to mention we have Osama Bin Ladin claiming he was behind it. What more do you want to know?

I was talking about Tim McViegh, not the suicide bombers. But I question him saying he did it. From my understanding - he praised that it was done but never did he admit to doing it. I have had people who spoke the language tell me he never said he did it. But I don't speak the language and I can not hear it for my self so....who knows.



Thousands planning the same thing as we speak? Have any evidence of that claim?

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhy8U1avFYQAZ2ZDA1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkyMcHzdT10&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EKG77kZlG4&feature=related

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=caa_1269956431

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkBPY6vYiMs

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=39e_1250481344

http://current.com/1mb464c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQKiCNbotRk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK-6VW4vtOU&feature=relmfu


There are many more videos.......



Did I say that? No, you're trying to find something that isn't there. The fact of the matter is that Europe's multiculturalism and political correctness backfired big time on them.

You're free to worship anyway you like but you start infringing on the rights of others, that's a big no no. I'd say threatening people with violence and murder is infringing on their rights.

Truly I was trying to figure out your point. I still have the same question... Are you saying Multiculturalism and Political Correctness is wrong because it backfired on them? Should they have done it a different way? What would you have done.

As I stated earlier... All religions do that to one another -
"MY GOD IS BIGGER AND BADDER THAN YOUR GOD.... AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME.... LETS HAVE A HOLY WAR" - That is about what it all amounts - money, power and land!


I'm saying Christians might not be like Christ but Muslims sure are like Muhammad.

Christians should be like Christ if they claim they are Christians!




Have anything to back this up? I don't seem to recall any explosions or murders that the KKK has taken responsibility for.

I am absolutely shocked that you would say that! So you don't think people that burn crosses in your yard, hang people from trees and burn up peoples houses are terrorist? WOW! Just watch their videos - they are terriost!




He makes a great point, if these people are a small portion of the Muslim population, why are we giving in to this lynch mob? If most Muslims aren't angry about the Dutch cartoon or a book criticizing their religion, why do we pay attention to them if they're a small minority and give in to their demands by limiting free speech?


A few bad appels always ruine the bunch - That is not a saying for nothing. I have met many Muslims - None are the way the media steriotypes them to be. I will not sit here and say all were wonderful people - some were full of s*** - just like some Christians that I know.

I am not giving in to anyone - and I do not want to have my speeach limited. At the same time people should be respectiful of other peoples religion or war will always be enevatable.

C&CDean
4/25/2011, 11:04 AM
Dude, you've got waaaaaaay too much time on your hands.

Sooner in Tampa
4/25/2011, 11:14 AM
Time to lock this muther ****er

Shakadoodoo
4/25/2011, 11:42 AM
Shak,

I like you and what you do for the kids, but you're so far off base here it's almost laughable. It ain't apples to oranges, it's figs to a T-bone steak. What the muslims have done in the WORLD the past decade or two is nothing short of barbarianism. You cannot condone/dismiss/blow off/compare to "christian" anything those POS mother****ers have done. Is it every one of them? Of course not, but there's a whole bunch of them that wants only one thing - you and me dead. Period. And they'll do anything to achieve it.

I just wish people wouldn't have to go "what about the christians" when there's a discussion on what the muslims are doing to the world. Religious christians ain't killing people. Religious christians ain't stoning/killing their own. Religious christians aren't commiting crime in the name of the Lord. Shirley you can see the difference?

I agree, I'm not down with anyone trying to kill me or my American people as well. But saying all Christians do this and all Muslims do that - is just wrong. It's way to general. All religions have done dirt and there are good and evil people within all of them. Thats all I am saying.

I sit in a security booth watching cars come in and out for the first 4 hours of the day - so at least I getting paid for my time:)

87sooner
4/25/2011, 11:45 AM
this thread is not about muslims....
it's about freedom to assemble in this country...

Shakadoodoo
4/25/2011, 12:09 PM
this thread is not about muslims....
it's about freedom to assemble in this country...

I think people should be free to assemble. I also think people should be respectful of others, as well as being smart about what they do. I should be free to assemble a Blood rally in a Crip neighborhood - but it is not smart. He is putting all of America in danger because he wants to prove a point? I think that is irresponsible. If he would of did that without making it a media frenzy he would of been fine - But instead he wants to **** off billions of people for some kind of self righteous fame - He just wanted his own wikipedia page or something? That is crazy!

87sooner
4/25/2011, 12:17 PM
I think people should be free to assemble. I also think people should be respectful of others, as well as being smart about what they do. I should be free to assemble a Blood rally in a Crip neighborhood - but it is not smart. He is putting all of America in danger because he wants to prove a point? I think that is irresponsible. If he would of did that without making it a media frenzy he would of been fine - But instead he wants to **** off billions of people for some kind of self righteous fame - He just wanted his own wikipedia page or something? That is crazy!

so you're comparing muslims to gangs?

the constitution does not protect the right to assemble "peacefully"....
a jury could easily decide that republicans/democrats/tea partiers cannot assemble because it may not be "peaceful"...

if the muslims turn to violence against someone protesting their religion....the constitution....and local laws protect the protesters...not the violent offenders...

Shakadoodoo
4/25/2011, 12:34 PM
so you're comparing muslims to gangs?

the constitution does not protect the right to assemble "peacefully"....
a jury could easily decide that republicans/democrats/tea partiers cannot assemble because it may not be "peaceful"...

if the muslims turn to violence against someone protesting their religion....the constitution....and local laws protect the protesters...not the violent offenders...

I understand that. And no - I'm not comparing Muslims to Gangs - I am just saying it is not smart and it is irresponsible to put others in danger for something that will not prove anything at all.

Bourbon St Sooner
4/25/2011, 12:37 PM
Seems like a good time to note that women in Saudia Arabia cannot vote, cannot run for office, cannot drive, need male or husband's approval to work or travel. Women must use separate entrances for almost everything.

That is not media spin... That is fact.

Women also can't nag at you for watching too much football in Saudi Arabia. See there are good things about all cultures.

87sooner
4/25/2011, 12:43 PM
I understand that. And no - I'm not comparing Muslims to Gangs - I am just saying it is not smart and it is irresponsible to put others in danger for something that will not prove anything at all.

well....you're not the one to decide if it will or will not "prove anything"....
and the court was out of line in deciding if the demonstration could take place based on an assumption of violence..
and the prosecutor should be fired for even pursuing this case...

if i were a conspiracy theorist.....i would suggest the muslim community used it's persuasion in that community to tromp all over the constitution

we should have laws that require judges to undergo constitutional "training" when they make decisions that are unconstitutional...

sappstuf
4/25/2011, 03:27 PM
I understand that. And no - I'm not comparing Muslims to Gangs - I am just saying it is not smart and it is irresponsible to put others in danger for something that will not prove anything at all.

Remember P!ss Christ?

http://www.usc.edu/schools/annenberg/asc/projects/comm544/library/images/502bg.jpg

Nobody was beheaded or beat up or anything like that. Put a copy of the Koran in p!ss and let's see what happens.

You seem to be admitting that Muslims react more violently to these types of things than other religions, but at the same time, you don't want to go all in and say it.

Offending Christians does not create violent reactions so therefore you can do it and still be responsible.

Offending Muslims does create violent reactions so therefore you cannot do because it is irresponsible.

What an odd thought process and the world we live in....

MR2-Sooner86
4/25/2011, 05:54 PM
Isn't it funny how I addressed every single point in the post last time yet certain parts of my post were "brushed over."

Again, it's a hard job correcting people and showing where they're wrong, but somebody has to do it.

Then again, it is fun to just rip a new one.


When I say KKK I mean white supremacist.

In 2008 this website http://www.stormfront.org/forum/ - had more than 144,000 members in 2008.

An online forum? So of those 144,000 so of those could be people just curious to see what's on there and signing up? None of them were on there because they feel they must debate those people? I mean we know every single person on soonerfans is a a sooner fan because we have nobody from Nebraska, Baylor, or Texas.


There are 1002 hate groups according to Southern Poverty Law Center.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map

....Most of them are white supremacist groups.

Obviously you didn't read that link.

If you did though I'm sure you clicked on Oklahoma to see the names of the organizations.

Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ

That's the only group that has anything related to Christianity in their name. So what is this group? They're a Black Separatist group, like the Black Panthers.

I'm also sure you saw all those Holocaust Denial/Pro-socialist/Islamic groups in there too that have nothing to do with white power.


Also - I am sure their number is way higher anyway - The militia groups get completely off the grid - So how could you have a real answer to that. I guess you think they all fill out a census report and register as white supremacist or something. Or when they get questioned they tell you about everyone that is in involved and who they do business with.

Here's where your argument just sucks.

You make an assumption you can't back up and just assume. You say the numbers for certain racial groups is higher than it really is. However, when discussing Muslims, it's just a "few bad apples."

Also, how did militias get thrown into this? Militias are anti-government groups. There's nothing religious about their motives. Some have Neo-Nazi/KKK ties but many just hate the government and are anarchist.


I am shocked that you only think that up to 10,000 people are involved with groups like these. I would be willing to guarantee you that there are way more than 10,000 white supremacist in prison alone!

Here you go twisting facts again and lying. You said the KKK had large numbers. I told you their membership was 10,000 at most. Now you're saying I told you there were only 10,000 members in all hate groups in the United States.

Also, before you say anything, being in the KKK does not mean you're a white supremacist or Neo-Nazi. Many of these groups have different motives. For instance White Supremacist have ties to Neo-Nazism which is not a religious but a political ideology.


http://stupidevilbastard.com/2011/02/southern-poverty-law-center-reports-number-of-hate-groups-in-america-at-all-time-high/

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-23/us/splc.hate.groups_1_patriot-groups-southern-poverty-law-center-mark-potok?_s=PM:US

http://www.adl.org/racist_skinheads/wsgwssm.asp

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-10-20-hategroups_N.htm

http://www.thegrio.com/news/southern-poverty-law-center-mlk-parade-bomb-suspect-was-avid-neo-nazi.php

http://imagine2050.newcomm.org/2011/03/09/southern-poverty-law-center-releases-report-on-state-legislators-for-legal-immigration/

Again, you're mixing up political groups with religious ones. You're assuming that because these groups exist in the United States, these people are Christians, so all of these groups are the result of Christianity. I mean it has nothing to do with the Deep South and their hurt feelings over the Civil War.


Like I said - That is a term used for propaganda.

This is from the Oxford English Dictionary.

anti-Semitism NOUN

hatred of Jews; unfair treatment of Jews
So, is the Oxford English Dictionary promoting propaganda in your mind?


Anti
–noun, plural -tis.
a person who is opposed to a particular practice, party, policy, action, etc.


Semite

The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including Akkadians, Canaanites, Phoenicians, Hebrews, Arabs, and Ethiopian Semites


an•ti•black   
–adjective
Hostile or opposed to black people:


an•ti-white
adj.
Hostile or opposed to white people:


an•ti•a•bor•tion
adj.
Opposed to induced abortion:

Now Every time Anti is being used..... the next word is what the person is anti against.

If someone is anti-racist - I would assume that they are opposed to racism

If someone says they are anti-education - I would assume they were opposed to education

If someone says they are anti-sooner - I would assume they were opposed to the Oklahoma Sooners, as well as being a little insane -

So I am sure you see where I am going - Anti-Semite should follow this same rule -

Anti-Semite should mean - someone who is opposed to Semites.

Middle Easterners are Semites.

So why was that the only "anti" phrase changed to mean specifically Jews - Because of Prophaganda!

You can throw a fit all you want but the definition is what it is. However if you want a history lesson it was used in Europe in the 19th century against the Jews and that's how it evolved to how we use it today.

If you don't like it, write Oxford and Webster and tell them to change it.


Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

Religion is derived from the Latin religiō, the ultimate origins of which are obscure. One possibility is derivation from a reduplicated *le-ligare, an interpretation traced to Cicero connecting lego "read", i.e. re (again) + lego in the sense of "choose", "go over again" or "consider carefully". Modern scholars such as Tom Harpur and Joseph Campbell favor the derivation from ligare "bind, connect", probably from a prefixed re-ligare, i.e. re (again) + ligare or "to reconnect," which was made prominent by St. Augustine, following the interpretation of Lactantius.

So basically Re-Ligion means to re-bind - re-connect - re-choose - re-teach ect....

So that means Preachers, Rabbis, ect... had to re-bind/connect/choose/teach the uneducated/uninformed masses about the word of God. The problem is that many of these Religious Leaders were only doing this to seek power, land ect...

And when people are seeking money, land, and power they will murder to get it hence the crusades, Spanish Inquisition, French Wars of Religion, Thirty Years War, Taiping Rebellion, ect...

So my point is when you are trying to say Islam is more Murderous than Christianity - I would beg to differ - all Religions are Murderous - it is the nature of religion itself. When I was in Addis Ababa a brutha told me the only reason many people in Ethiopia... did not like the Christian Missionaries was because when they come – they always have a handful of Bibles. By the time the natives figure out what is going on, the natives have all the Bibles and the foreigners have all the land. They were not to fond of Arabs/Persians for the same reasons. (as a side note - many Ethiopians follow an oldest form of Christianity on the planet)

People should concentrate on being more spiritual that religious. All religion does is divide and conquer us!

Instead of trying to make a cute, at least in your mind, argument you could've just said, "Christianity is just as violent as Islam."

With that said, you're wrong.


I ignore the show all together - It is trash. I would not know if they were speaking bad about Jesus, Mohammad, or anyone else because I do not watch it, I do not allow my kids to watch it, I do not read articles about - I have no Idea about the show. I saw one show about Sadam being the Devils B**** and that was enough for me. It is trash!!!!!

I'll help you out. Although I find it funny you don't know anything about it as it was all over the news when it happened and there were many debates on free speech in regards to it. In one episode they had Jesus taking a dump on the American flag with George W. Bush. What happened? Nothing at all.

They had Muhammad dressed up in a bear outfit so you couldn't even see him. What happened? Muslims threatened to kill Trey Parker and Matt Stone, posted directions to their house, and posted photos of Theo Van Gogh saying they'd end up like that.

Now that you're caught up on it, why is it this stuff is done to Islam and riots happen. Why is it when this stuff is done to Christianity, nothing happens except maybe a "don't do that!" from a religious leader?


Nowhere in the bible does it say their should be no pictures of Jesus drawn so why would this happin. If the scriptures said no pictures of Jesus should be drawn than that would be a legit comparason to make... But it does not.

Funny you only address one point I asked about, the cartoons. So you're saying if Christianity followed the same rules, people would riot over photos of Jesus? Here's the thing with South Park, they NEVER showed Muhammad, not once. However they still got death threats.

How come they do horrid things to Jesus yet there's no violence because of it?

Theo Van Gogh made a film against women's rights in Islam and got killed. How come Bill Maher wasn't killed for his film mocking Christianity?

Salman Rushdie wrote a non-ficiton book called The Satanic Versus. Many followers of Islam wanted him dead and a few tried to kill him. How come Dan Brown wasn't killed for his non-fiction book on Jesus?

How come Islam is given a free pass because it could be "offensive" or we must "respect people's beliefs" yet Christianity is fair game?


But I am sure of one thing and I should not have to search for quotes and find videos to prove this to you. People will fight and die for their Religion and if Christians felt their religion was being disrespected in any way - there would be hell to pay.

Actually, you should have to show me because you're making claims and should back them up.

People do fight, die, and kill in the name of all religions. The thing is, Islam does it allot more. You're just refusing to either see or admit it.


There are many more and if you go into depth - you will find more than that! This country is 90% Christian. So what on earth would make you think their is more Muslim to Christian percusition here than the other way around.

This country is 75-80% Christian depending on which polls you go on.

However, how bad do Muslims have it here compared to Christians in Muslims countries? Are you really going to tell me with a straight face it's just as bad for Muslims here as it is for a Christian in Saudi Arabia or Iran?

I also noticed you skipped over those links I posted. Put a dent in your argument I assume? I mean Muslims killing Christians just for being Christian will ruin any argument.

Anyway, I'm off for now to go work on a paper. I'll address part two later. Here's a sneak peak, you assume way too much.

Here's the argument you're trying to make. Christianity is just as bad as Islam in terms of violence and bad behavior. However, you've posted above "I'm sure there's more" or "there's got to be more" trying to grasp at straws. However Islam you seem to give more a free ride.

Either you're...
A. follower of Islam yourself
B. Islamic apologist
C. blind
D. afraid of getting blown up for telling it like it is

For your viewing pleasure, until I get back, here's Richard Dawkins, another atheist, that helps back up my point.

LhYus6TiGEE&feature
Dawkins tells us that Christianity is more tolerant and open-minded than Islam.

pQzuFrMRA3M
Dawkins gets an Islamic to admit that if you leave Islam in a Muslim country, you'll get killed. He also goes on to discuss how Christianity is more benign than Islam.

I Am Right
4/25/2011, 06:08 PM
Burn it!

sappstuf
4/25/2011, 06:42 PM
Women also can't nag at you for watching too much football in Saudi Arabia. See there are good things about all cultures.

But their "football" is probably soccer....

I Am Right
4/25/2011, 06:51 PM
Nice Easter Proclomation Mr. President.

Ctina
4/26/2011, 02:21 AM
I don't understand the comparisons people make regarding what happens in this country to what happens in some of the Islamic countries when they are completely different. We have rights and freedoms in this country that many in those countries can't conceive of, so it is an unfair comparison. Expecting them to exhibit the types of behaviors we are accustomed to when many of their people live in the same conditions that they did in the year 1 is unrealistic.

That's why that moron of a pastor should know better, we are supposedly more evolved. He was allowed to protest in alternate locations if he followed the rules. He didn't want to play by those rules.

87sooner
4/26/2011, 08:10 AM
I don't understand the comparisons people make regarding what happens in this country to what happens in some of the Islamic countries when they are completely different. We have rights and freedoms in this country that many in those countries can't conceive of, so it is an unfair comparison. Expecting them to exhibit the types of behaviors we are accustomed to when many of their people live in the same conditions that they did in the year 1 is unrealistic.

That's why that moron of a pastor should know better, we are supposedly more evolved. He was allowed to protest in alternate locations if he followed the rules. He didn't want to play by those rules.

it is clear you are also on the side of disregarding the constitution......
why is that?

yermom
4/26/2011, 08:21 AM
the First Amendment only applies in certain areas specified by the government. you know, just like Habeas Corpus and the 4th Amendment

Shakadoodoo
4/26/2011, 08:32 AM
it is clear you are also on the side of disregarding the constitution......
why is that?

They have constitutional amendments for a reason. I see that you are hell bent on the constitution. That is cool. But when they wrote "we the people" it was not really "we the people" - It was we the people who look like the forefathers. If we stayed so hell bent on maintaining every thing that the constitution said without acknowledging the situation/difference in society, ect... I would still be considered 3/5 of a human. So I for one do not hold the Constitution in its highest esteem. I think it is good but could be improved if the situation for it to be improved comes up.

sappstuf
4/26/2011, 08:43 AM
I don't understand the comparisons people make regarding what happens in this country to what happens in some of the Islamic countries when they are completely different. We have rights and freedoms in this country that many in those countries can't conceive of, so it is an unfair comparison. Expecting them to exhibit the types of behaviors we are accustomed to when many of their people live in the same conditions that they did in the year 1 is unrealistic.

That's why that moron of a pastor should know better, we are supposedly more evolved. He was allowed to protest in alternate locations if he followed the rules. He didn't want to play by those rules.

1. More evolved?? Are you saying those brown skinned people are savages that haven't evolved to the level of the white man? That appears to be what you are saying.

2. He was offered to be able to protest in front of the mosque if he paid a "peace bond" as well. Why did the police think a "peace bond" was needed? Not because Jones threatened anyone, he did not. They thought others could possibly respond violently. You cannot charge a person for the actions of others because of something that person might say. And in case you wonder which side the threat of violence was coming from, the police chief clarified that in the trial.


Dearborn Police Chief Ronald Haddad testified today that there have been at least four serious threats made against Jones from metro Detroiters, arguing that his protest could lead to violence if allowed…

There is a "fighting words" exception to the first amendment.. The opinion said this:


These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or “fighting” words those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace.

So could you make a case that him saying Islam is bad is "fighting words"? I guess.. That is pretty weak, like saying ANYTHING I disagree with is "fighting words".

We've let Neo-nazis wear swastikas at protests in Skokie, IL, which had a large number of holocaust survivors, because of the first amendment.. If that isn't "fighting words", I don't know what is.

sappstuf
4/26/2011, 08:52 AM
Speaking of free speech...


Derek Fenton, Koran-burning transit worker fired from his job after Ground Zero protest, re-hired

A Koran-burning New Jersey Transit worker, fired for his protest near Ground Zero last Sept. 11, is getting his job back - along with an extra $25,000 for his troubles.

Derek Fenton, 40, will also collect back pay since his Sept. 13, 2010, dismissal for torching pages of the Muslim holy book on the site of a proposed lower Manhattan Islamic center.

The deal additionally pays Fenton $25,000 for pain and suffering and restores his pension credits.

"I feel relieved I have a job," Fenton told the Daily News yesterday from his Bloomingdale, N.J. home.

Earlier, the 11-year NJ Transit employee released a defiant statement.

"Our government cannot pick and choose whose free speech rights are protected, based on whether or not they approve of the context of our statements or actions," Fenton said.

"This is the very essence of the First Amendment."

Fenton, a train conductor, will return to work next week if he completes a physical and a drug test on Monday, said Deborah Jacobs, New Jersey executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union.

Fenton was not working when he arrived at the site of the controversial Islamic center to mark the ninth anniversary of the attacks on the World Trade Center.

The father of two burned three pages of the Koran to protest the planned center's proximity to the site of the attack by Muslim terrorists who flew planes into the twin towers.

He was led away by police and never identified himself as a NJ Transit employee. Yet two days later, Fenton was fired.

The ACLU filed suit on Fenton's behalf, and the deal was brokered before the case went to trial. The state also agreed to reimburse the ACLU for a $25,000 legal tab.

New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie had backed Fenton's firing, saying the transit worker's behavior was "unacceptable."

The typically talkative governor's office did not return a call for comment.

Reps for the the state Attorney General's Office and NJ Transit also did not return calls for comment.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/04/22/2011-04-22_derek_fenton_koranburning_transit_worker_fired_ from_his_job_after_ground_zero_pr.html#ixzz1KdYPwY 20

C&CDean
4/26/2011, 09:38 AM
Suhweet.

Shakadoodoo
4/26/2011, 10:09 AM
Isn't it funny how I addressed every single point in the post last time yet certain parts of my post were "brushed over."


I will keep this shorter.

1st

I made a mistake when I said KKK - When I say KKK I realy mean all groups of people that hate African Americans, Jews, ect... and that claim Christian as a religion. There are way more people that 10,000 that feel this way. That was my only point there. But thanks for pointing out how I was using generalities.

2nd

I do understand that words are not defined by etymology. They are defined by usage.


A koala 'bear' is not a bear.
'Tin' foil is not made out of tin.
Guineau pigs are not pigs and they don't come from Guineau.
Arabic numerals are Indian.
Chinese checkers doesnt even come from Asia.

Anti semitism has come to be associated with jews, and not other Semites. So I do understand where you are coming from - But I still believe that a person that hates Muslims is just as Anti-Semitic as those that hate Jews - since both are Semitic.


3rd.

I still think A and B are the same?

Have Christians murdered an author criticizing their religion like Muslims did to Theo Van Gogh?
Worse. Christians brutally murdered William Tyndale (a Christian himself) for attempting to translate the Bible into English.

(edit) - yeymom corrected me - Theo Van Gogh in the 1950s - That is messed up hao he was murdered for expressing his opinion through films.

I was hesitant to go back to far but since you mention Theo Van Gogh - Wasn't that the 1800's? Christians still believed in Manifest Destiny back them. Millions of Native American and Africans were beaten, raped, and killed in the name of Jesus back then. The name of the one of the first slave ship was "The Good Ship Jesus (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NPy-urWzzhkJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hawkins+the+good+ship+jesus+wikipedia&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com)" - Just Google: Jesus - the first slave ships - you will find a plethora of information. But the further you go back the more invalid your argument is - I thought you meant in the last 30 years or so...


Have Christians protested, bombed, and set on fire embassies of countries that had a newspaper with satirical cartoons of Jesus?
Worse. They set fire to countries, killing millions, displacing millions more and destabilizing the region and support regimes who are corrupt then they remove the regimes wanting to be crowned as "saviours".

Again, have Christians issued death threats to Trey Parker and Matt Stone of South Park for their mocking of Jesus?
I could not find any instances of that in recent years - People came to this country for the freedom of worship - I think that has a lot to do with us being more tolerant. Its even written in our constitution isn't it?

Have Christians attempted to assassinate an author of non-fiction like Muslims tried to do to Salman Rushdie for his book The Satanic Versus?
Worse. They successfully assassinated King Faisal r.a.

Have Christians hijacked planes for religious purposes?
Worse. They round up innocent men and women and sent them to secret prisons(Rendition) where they are tortured and never returned...at least in one piece.

I really think this finger pointing contest is silly that we are having. We could do that all day.


4th -

As for me being

A. follower of Islam yourself
B. Islamic apologist
C. blind
D. afraid of getting blown up for telling it like it is

I am :
E. A person who will not throw stereotypes on people for general reasons. I would rather talk to people one on one and then form an opinion. I refuse to take everything people tell me for face value, especially when they full of Bias. Instead I do my research and come up with my own opinions. Someone can not tell me that Masons are evil and I just except that - I will go talk to a Mason first - and not just one - I will talk to many of them and then form an opinion. Biased people like Mike Savage will not talk me into s*** - I prefer to do my own research.

Lastly -

I am not here to put Christianity down or any other religion for that matter - (I was born and raised a Catholic myself. Bias and stereotypes against Catholics is about as bad as Bias against Muslims.) I am just pointing out that their are flaws in all. Maybe people should start being Jesus instead of waiting on him because the hatred that Christians have for other people that are not like them - is definitely not Jesus Like!

I love expanding my circle of knowledge - it good building with you!

yermom
4/26/2011, 10:16 AM
you might be thinking of a different Theo Van Gogh...

C&CDean
4/26/2011, 10:20 AM
Shak,

Nice job taking the high road.

MR2,

You could learn a thing or 6 from Shak. While I mostly agree with what you're saying, you did it in a condescending and insulting way and the point you are trying to make suffers for it. State the facts/your opinion without being a major dick about it and you'll get a lot more mileage.

Lott's Bandana
4/26/2011, 10:56 AM
I have glanced at this thread title all week, mildly curious as to why a Man of God would hate Koreans so much.

I need to upgrade my reading glasses...

Gandalf_The_Grey
4/26/2011, 11:11 AM
Have you ever met a Korean...the better question would have been. "How could a man of God not hate Koreans?"

Lott's Bandana
4/26/2011, 11:14 AM
Have you ever met a Korean...the better question would have been. "How could a man of God not hate Koreans?"


I love them. Any culture that created Bulgogi and Kimchi is okay in my book.

yermom
4/26/2011, 11:16 AM
word.

Gandalf_The_Grey
4/26/2011, 11:33 AM
They stole those from the Muslims

Lott's Bandana
4/26/2011, 01:54 PM
They stole those from the Muslims


Well then, good for them!


That begs the question. If Christians are "infidels", why don't Asian countries come under Jihad? (by Asian, I mean Pacific Rim, not Asia Minor)

Am I missing something obvious?

StoopTroup
4/26/2011, 02:59 PM
I am not here to put Christianity down or any other religion for that matter - (I was born and raised a Catholic myself. Bias and stereotypes against Catholics is about as bad as Bias against Muslims.) I am just pointing out that their are flaws in all. Maybe people should start being Jesus instead of waiting on him because the hatred that Christians have for other people that are not like them - is definitely not Jesus Like!

I love expanding my circle of knowledge - it good building with you!

Really?

Because I have you down saying this....


Christians should be like Christ if they claim they are Christians!

People aren't perfect. Hypocrisy is everywhere. We all are flawed.

Your circle of knowledge means nothing when your posting directly conflicts with what you say we should all do. You are as messed up as any one of us. I'm not really sure you should even be in charge of kids given the amount of confusion you've posted here. Maybe what you have done is better than what was done before you...it might not mean you are headed towards Sainthood however.

Seriously....

Jesus walked the Earth a long time before he began to speak.

If we are all to be more like him as you say....maybe you should take a long walk.

Shakadoodoo
4/26/2011, 03:26 PM
Really?

Because I have you down saying this....



People aren't perfect. Hypocrisy is everywhere. We all are flawed.

Your circle of knowledge means nothing when your posting directly conflicts with what you say we should all do. You are as messed up as any one of us. I'm not really sure you should even be in charge of kids given the amount of confusion you've posted here. Maybe what you have done is better than what was done before you...it might not mean you are headed towards Sainthood however.

Seriously....

Jesus walked the Earth a long time before he began to speak.

If we are all to be more like him as you say....maybe you should take a long walk.


What kind of tangent did you go off on? Sainthood? What? Christians should strive to live like Christ - What is wrong with that statement? Isn't that what the arm bands "What would Jesus Do" represent. I strive to live like Jesus everyday. I'm good with all he 10 commandments - (except the sex before marriage one) I'm working on that. And of course I'm not perfect to you or anyone else because that can only be reached within ones self. Perfection is in the eyes of the beholder. What is perfect to me will not be perfect to you or anyone else. Therefore you can think what you want. It means absolutely nothing to me!

As far as me working with kids - I would be retarded to argue with you about that. You have no Idea what I do or do not do. Your just fishing like you do on most of your post. Your post are completely nonsensical at best. I just take it for you being some kind of comedian or something that searches around on the internet all day to come up with things you think are amusing. Thats cool if that works for you. Do your thing And you don't even have to keep your criticisms to yourself regarding me. Just know - your comments hold no water this way. Go find some more pictures of some pickles or find people to neg - every neg I have is from you - and you were not involved in any of the conversations. But I ain't mad at you - I hope it makes you happy!

sooner59
4/26/2011, 03:41 PM
What if you try to be like Christ without specifically claiming to the world that you are "Christian"?

Shakadoodoo
4/26/2011, 03:42 PM
What if you try to be like Christ without specifically claiming to the world that you are "Christian"?

That is what I do. One's actions should be the proof.

usmc-sooner
4/26/2011, 06:27 PM
I think the problem is that muslims are acting like mohammed

StoopTroup
4/26/2011, 06:29 PM
I would be retarded to argue with you about that.

At least you got something right

StoopTroup
4/26/2011, 06:58 PM
Actually I was thinking of the Civil Rights movement at first (not because one is more important than the other but because I am black - and I am not a woman) but...- Human Rights of all people are important. Not just woman - I see it has been since the 1920's for the woman suffrage movement. So yes I was off 30 years on the woman.

In any case - woman are still treated as less in western society as well. It is written in the religion. It is womans fault for all the woes in the world. The original Trinity was man, woman, and child - the west had such a problem with this that the switched out the woman for the holy ghost (which wiccans and other "occult" religions say represent a feminine principal) but no one in America will tell you that. I have never seen a man give birth but God is a man. Woman came from a man? All humans I see are cut from the umbilical chord from their mother - but yet all living things come from a man? It even states that Mary was born of an Immaculate Conception in the lost books of the bible - but Men made a choice to leave that out.

Woman are still not treated equal in the workplace. Forced woman prostitution is rampant in the USA. A black man became President before a white woman - that should tell you everything. These attitudes are derived from the patriarchal society that the west thrives on.

So yes, woman are doing better than woman in some of the other countries but attitudes of woman are still pretty barbaric, even here in the USA so it is not surprising that other countries still have problems with woman.

This one.

OMG....you are pretty out there.

StoopTroup
4/26/2011, 07:06 PM
I think people should be free to assemble. I also think people should be respectful of others, as well as being smart about what they do. I should be free to assemble a Blood rally in a Crip neighborhood - but it is not smart. He is putting all of America in danger because he wants to prove a point? I think that is irresponsible. If he would of did that without making it a media frenzy he would of been fine - But instead he wants to **** off billions of people for some kind of self righteous fame - He just wanted his own wikipedia page or something? That is crazy!

You'd be dead in 5 minutes if you assembled a Blood rally in a Crip Neighborhood.

I think you could really use to go see a good psychologist. I'm not sure they could really turn around the years of misconception and hate that you have experienced but maybe they can at least help you with these wild accusations and the continuing amounts of confusion you try to put together in these threads.

Down deep....you are probably a really good guy and wouldn't hurt a fly. It seems you have a good heart but somewhere your education has twisted your ability to really live in this world and help others find a bit of normalcy so that kids can grow up in a World of Love instead of hate. In a World of friendship instead of indifference.

StoopTroup
4/26/2011, 07:07 PM
I love you doo doo. I really do doo.