Religion may become extinct in 9 nations - BBC News

[Fraggle145]

22 March 2011 Last updated at 03:31 ET

Religion may become extinct in nine nations, study says (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197)
By Jason Palmer
Science and technology reporter, BBC News, Dallas

A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion there is set for extinction, say researchers.

The study found a steady rise in those claiming no religious affiliation.

The team's mathematical model attempts to account for the interplay between the number of religious respondents and the social motives behind being one.

The result, reported at the American Physical Society meeting in Dallas, US, indicates that religion will all but die out altogether in those countries.

The team took census data stretching back as far as a century from countries in which the census queried religious affiliation: Australia, Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Switzerland.

Nonlinear dynamics is invoked to explain a wide range of physical phenomena in which a number of factors play a part.

One of the team, Daniel Abrams of Northwestern University, put forth a similar model (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v424/n6951/abs/424900a.html) in 2003 to put a numerical basis behind the decline of lesser-spoken world languages.

At its heart is the competition between speakers of different languages, and the "utility" of speaking one instead of another.

"The idea is pretty simple," said Richard Wiener of the Research Corporation for Science Advancement, and the University of Arizona.

"It posits that social groups that have more members are going to be more attractive to join, and it posits that social groups have a social status or utility.

"For example in languages, there can be greater utility or status in speaking Spanish instead of [the dying language] Quechuan in Peru, and similarly there's some kind of status or utility in being a member of a religion or not."

Dr Wiener continued: "In a large number of modern secular democracies, there's been a trend that folk are identifying themselves as non-affiliated with religion; in the Netherlands the number was 40%, and the highest we saw was in the Czech Republic, where the number was 60%."

The team then applied their nonlinear dynamics model, adjusting parameters for the relative social and utilitarian merits of membership of the "non-religious" category.

They found, in a study published online (http://arxiv.org/abs/1012.1375), that those parameters were similar across all the countries studied, suggesting that similar behaviour drives the mathematics in all of them.

And in all the countries, the indications were that religion was headed toward extinction.

However, Dr Wiener told the conference that the team was working to update the model with a "network structure" more representative of the one at work in the world.

"Obviously we don't really believe this is the network structure of a modern society, where each person is influenced equally by all the other people in society," he said.

However, he told BBC News that he thought it was "a suggestive result".

"It's interesting that a fairly simple model captures the data, and if those simple ideas are correct, it suggests where this might be going.

"Obviously much more complicated things are going on with any one individual, but maybe a lot of that averages out."

We havent stirred this pot in a while...

[Mississippi Sooner]

Heh. Canada.

[Mongo]

Dr Wiener? Srsly? I use that alias at clubs and bars

[Mississippi Sooner]

Dr Wiener? Srsly? I use that alias at clubs and bars

Dr. Dick Wiener, no less.

[Fraggle145]

Dr Wiener? Srsly? I use that alias at clubs and bars

I know right? :hot:

[Mongo]

Dr. Dick Wiener, no less.

And yet chicks dont fall for it. I dont get it. I am a doctor for zeus's sake

[The Profit]

And yet chicks dont fall for it. I dont get it. I am a doctor for zeus's sake



Nice touch.:) :)

[OklahomaTuba]

So you're saying people will stop believing in "Mike's Nature Trick" in those country's???

[Fraggle145]

I thought the fact that Ireland was on the list was interesting... Especially with all the big to do about being catholic...

[Ike]

This being presented at the APS, I have to wonder if it wasn't part of the "division of quacks" sessions. The APS has long allowed just about anyone who submits an abstract to present at their meetings. Usually they try to group all the quackish stuff into their own parallel sessions, so that people who are there for the serious stuff know which sessions to avoid.

Invariably though, the quack sessions end up being rather well attended because everyone needs some comic relief once in a while. I remember sitting through a talk at one of them in which the presenter made the claim that comets were made of antimatter, and that we should make spaceships to mine them for said antimatter in order to fuel our growing energy demands.

No bull.

[Penguin]

I would love to see what was the exact question asked. "Do you consider yourself part of an organized religion?" or "Do you believe in a Higher Power?" are two completely different questions. The answers could easily be considered the same and then anyone can use statistics to prove whatever they want to prove.

[The Maestro]

People are thinking more. The days of just believing what you were told based on where you were born are dying. Certainly has for me.

[cccasooner2]

The image of the Blessed Virgin appears in my beer mug and disappears when my nose hits the suds.

[cccasooner2]

I would love to see what was the exact question asked. "Do you consider yourself part of an organized religion?" or "Do you believe in a Higher Power?" are two completely different questions. The answers could easily be considered the same and then anyone can use statistics to prove whatever they want to prove.

True that, we got higher powers all over the f**king place.

[MR2-Sooner86]

People are thinking more. The days of just believing what you were told based on where you were born are dying. Certainly has for me.

:pop:

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

:pop:
:pop:

[Jacie]

I would love to see what was the exact question asked. "Do you consider yourself part of an organized religion?" or "Do you believe in a Higher Power?" are two completely different questions. The answers could easily be considered the same and then anyone can use statistics to prove whatever they want to prove.

I don't think anyone was asked a question except as a box to check on a census form.

The team took census data stretching back as far as a century from countries in which the census queried religious affiliation: Australia, Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Switzerland.

[Blue]

People are thinking more. The days of just believing what you were told based on where you were born are dying. Certainly has for me.

I've thought alot, studied alot, and come to the conclusion there is a God.

Also I have the evidence of creation staring me in the face everyday.

To each their own though.

[Aldebaran]

I think we've invented more interesting things in the last few thousand years.

[Fraggle145]

To each their own though.

Totally agree with this.

I think what is interesting is the mechanism. Why would religion be going extinct?

I mean it certainly seems strong in America and in the Muslim world. And I would argue in South and Central America.

What is going on with religion in China?

[Leroy Lizard]

This being presented at the APS, I have to wonder if it wasn't part of the "division of quacks" sessions. The APS has long allowed just about anyone who submits an abstract to present at their meetings. Usually they try to group all the quackish stuff into their own parallel sessions, so that people who are there for the serious stuff know which sessions to avoid.

Invariably though, the quack sessions end up being rather well attended because everyone needs some comic relief once in a while. I remember sitting through a talk at one of them in which the presenter made the claim that comets were made of antimatter, and that we should make spaceships to mine them for said antimatter in order to fuel our growing energy demands.

No bull.

Ike, why are physicists getting involved in this in the first place? Religion? Quack science is one thing, but this is completely outside their realm.

And what is the difference between their online paper and a blog? Don't tell me that physicists are going the way of the social scientists. They should send their manuscript to Physical Review Letters just to get a nasty response back.

[Leroy Lizard]

People are thinking more.

No, they're talking on the Internet more. That has nothing to do with thinking.

[Ike]

Ike, why are physicists getting involved in this in the first place? Religion? Quack science is one thing, but this is completely outside their realm.

And what is the difference between their online paper and a blog? Don't tell me that physicists are going the way of the social scientists. They should send their manuscript to Physical Review Letters just to get a nasty response back.

So it appears that this wasn't really the 'division of quacks'. The session it was presented in was titled "Applications of Statistical and Nonlinear Physics to Social Systems". Other talks in the session had titles like:
-Characterization of stock market regimes by data compression
-Relativistic statistical arbitrage
-Spontaneous Time Symmetry Breaking in System with Mixed Strategy Nash Equilibrium: Evidences in Experimental Economics Data
-Statistical regularities in the rank-citation profile of individual scientists

The general idea of the session seems to be "let's see if theories similar to physics theories apply to things that we don't consider to be part of the physical domain."

[The Maestro]

No, they're talking on the Internet more. That has nothing to do with thinking.

Speak for yourself, Leroy. I am the son of a Baptist preacher who was at church everytime the doors were open. I won't lull you to sleep with details, but I have been reading books, some things online and just flat out thinking about it all more...and I can't and won't say there is no God, but I also know no one can prove to me that the Bible, which I was raised to believe is the inspired word of God and irrefutable, is just that.

I don't want to rob people of their faith and belief that lots of unprovable things happened way back when and, if believed, will lead to a glorious eternity in Heaven...but I don't buy it anymore. I don't believe it to be true.

As far as my concept of God, well...seems somewhat logical to think a Creator did all of "this", but there is also evidence of the evolving of all things...I am not a scientist and don't care to be. I also just don't care to be held captive by religious ideology that controlled me for years. I am not focused on the past or the future that I have no control over. This life is about the NOW...and I am embracing it.

[The Maestro]

Saw this link yesterday that I find interesting...part of my research is also finding out that it really all comes down to where you were born. We are in America so almost all religious folks are protestant or Christian.

Too bad for folks in India, China and all parts of the globe not in Christianland...I guess God is damning them to hell for being born there or they get the fat chance of winning the spiritual lottery and today's Lottie Moon is going to come waltzing in and save their souls!

But even in America, this link shows how religious each state is...how often they pray, worship and believe in a God as Creator.

http://pewforum.org/How-Religious-Is-Your-State-.aspx

Mississippi is number one in EVERY category. My point? Take a look at the Bible belt. The poorest, most uneducated section of the country. They pass it down from generation to generation--"Your life on earth ain't much, but if you show up each week with 10% of that paycheck we will show you how you can walk on streets of gold for all eternity when this fleeting life is over!"

Mmmmmmm....sure.

[soonervegas]

Pretty much ditto on what Maestro said. No one knows one way or the other if there is a God or not. (and I am not going to take the word of a book where people are throwing severed foreskin at the feet of other people)

I agree with the death of religion. Have you seen the demographic of churches? They are going to hurtin for certain in about 30-40 years.

[JohnnyMack]

where people are throwing severed foreskin at the feet of other people

Uhhhh.....can you give Mongo and I directions on how to get to that place you're talking about?

[soonervegas]

Uhhhh.....can you give Mongo and I directions on how to get to that place you're talking about?

Are you wanting me to point you to where in the bible it says that?

[Mongo]

Uhhhh.....can you give Mongo and I directions on how to get to that place you're talking about?

Remember the time we took all those Charlie's foreskins and made those swanky necklaces and ear rings and sold them for lady boy money?

[MR2-Sooner86]

This is why I support atheism. Strictly a non-prophet organization.

[OhU1]

I don't see religion dying out as the human brain seems to be wired to detect and see intelligent agency in general. There may also be a cultural/evolutionary function of religion which solves the lack of certainty "problem" and provides security which is a great human need.

I can see mainline denominations having trouble. Several of my church going friends have switched over to the big video screen, music playing, wear your blue jeans "mega church" joints that seem to have become fashionable.

[Ike]

I can see mainline denominations having trouble. Several of my church going friends have switched over to the big video screen, music playing, wear your blue jeans "mega church" joints that seem to have become fashionable.

We call this phenomenon the "Music-Industryifcation of religion". Religion has just hit the MTV stage. In about 20 years, they'll face a growing number of people who engage in widespread sermon-sharing on the internet, leading to people getting their religion in the comfort of their own homes. The churches will then band together to start suing their members, while simultaneously partnering with apple to create the iPew and sell their sermons online at $.99 a pop.

[Leroy Lizard]

Speak for yourself, Leroy. I am the son of a Baptist preacher who was at church everytime the doors were open. I won't lull you to sleep with details, but I have been reading books, some things online and just flat out thinking about it all more...and I can't and won't say there is no God, but I also know no one can prove to me that the Bible, which I was raised to believe is the inspired word of God and irrefutable, is just that.

And questioning faith is a new activity? People never did that in the past?

C'mon, go to the mall. Report back on the deep thinkers you find in the new generation.

I'm not saying their more shallow than in the past, but I don't think the world has been overtaken by legions of Platos.

The real reason, in my opinion, for the drop in religious belief is that religion imposes curtailments on fun. And fun is becoming more and more important to people. This notion that they are turning into philosophical scholars to rethink their beliefs is hooey. They wanna screw, they wanna do drugs, and religion is a downer on those activities.

[Leroy Lizard]

We call this phenomenon the "Music-Industryifcation of religion". Religion has just hit the MTV stage. In about 20 years, they'll face a growing number of people who engage in widespread sermon-sharing on the internet, leading to people getting their religion in the comfort of their own homes. The churches will then band together to start suing their members, while simultaneously partnering with apple to create the iPew and sell their sermons online at $.99 a pop.

You are a visionary, Reverend Ike. So how do I get in on this?

[3rdgensooner]

I would love to see what was the exact question asked. "Do you consider yourself part of an organized religion?" or "Do you believe in a Higher Power?" are two completely different questions. The answers could easily be considered the same and then anyone can use statistics to prove whatever they want to prove.


I don't think anyone was asked a question except as a box to check on a census form.

The team took census data stretching back as far as a century from countries in which the census queried religious affiliation: Australia, Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Switzerland.

It seems the thread subject line is exactly right. The point is about "religion" not "higher power".

[Sooner98]

We definitely need more atheist countries, because as history has clearly shown over the last century or so, atheist countries have a pristine, unblemished record of peace, prosperity, freedom, and happiness..

Well, not really.

[The Maestro]

And questioning faith is a new activity? People never did that in the past?

C'mon, go to the mall. Report back on the deep thinkers you find in the new generation.

I'm not saying their more shallow than in the past, but I don't think the world has been overtaken by legions of Platos.

The real reason, in my opinion, for the drop in religious belief is that religion imposes curtailments on fun. And fun is becoming more and more important to people. This notion that they are turning into philosophical scholars to rethink their beliefs is hooey. They wanna screw, they wanna do drugs, and religion is a downer on those activities.

My apologies...I thought the use of the word "I" so much gave it away that I was speaking for me...hope that clears it up for you.

My search...and stay with me, LL...not speaking for the kids at the mall...is about finding the TRUTH! My wife, also a PK, has been asking me why this change of heart...and that is what I tell her. I don't care what the truth is, I just want to have the best idea of what it is. I see so many half-assed "just in case" Christians looking for fire insurance...and I was one of those, too. But if the truth is that this God I have never seen, heard, touched, met and no one living has, either...why believe? I need proof. He proved Himself in Bible stories...and the Bible says He never changes and is the same today, yesterday and forever...so prove Himself to be real now. And not in some emotional-filled spiritfest. If God is that powerful, proving Himself to be real is not hard to do...He has no reason to fear us...and since He is all-loving it will make more people worship and follow Him.

But...it ain't happening. And that isn't about having fun, Leroy. That's about the BS I feel like I was led to believe a good portion of my life. Not sure whether I feel angered about it or just relieved I have a sense of truth now.

[The Maestro]

We definitely need more atheist countries, because as history has clearly shown over the last century or so, atheist countries have a pristine, unblemished record of peace, prosperity, freedom, and happiness..

Well, not really.

Is there really an atheist country? I mean, religion, in some sort, is worldwide. If there are 100 religions, most folks discount 99 of them...atheist just believe in one fewer than you.

[Jacie]

And questioning faith is a new activity? People never did that in the past?

C'mon, go to the mall. Report back on the deep thinkers you find in the new generation.

I'm not saying their more shallow than in the past, but I don't think the world has been overtaken by legions of Platos.

The real reason, in my opinion, for the drop in religious belief is that religion imposes curtailments on fun. And fun is becoming more and more important to people. This notion that they are turning into philosophical scholars to rethink their beliefs is hooey. They wanna screw, they wanna do drugs, and religion is a downer on those activities.

Do you ever read your own posts? Are screwing and doing drugs new activities? People never did that in the past?

My take on it is we can now explain some of the things that used to be mysterious 2400 years ago but the hardcores don't want to admit. Time, yeah we figured that one out (a little longer than 6000 years has passed), Earth (and by extension Man) at the center of things, nope, evolution (as opposed to every species alive being set here on Earth exactly as we see them today), yes. Kinda takes some of the bloom off the rose that there is an authority other than the Bible. I mean, it was nice that someone calmed the ignorants saying that bright flash and following boom were made by Big JuJu and He won't like it if you don't worship Him, but now we understand what is going on and don't have to slaughter bulls or virgins in His name. But if it gives you comfort then by all means, believe . . .

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

You must spread some reputation around before you give it to The Maestro again

word

[Ike]

You are a visionary, Reverend Ike. So how do I get in on this?

A small donation of $1,000,000 to my USA-innerwebs-kickass-ministry will ensure you a place of honor in the pearly gates.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Is there really an atheist country? I mean, religion, in some sort, is worldwide. If there are 100 religions, most folks discount 99 of them...atheist just believe in one fewer than you.

The Soviet Union tried to be atheist but that didn't work out for them. You don't force people to ideals. You give them a freedom of choice. This is why atheism in this country is slowly starting to take root and become more accepted in this country. There's still a long ways to go however.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/
Great place

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/
Great place

That's not real is it?

[JohnnyMack]

The real reason, in my opinion, for the drop in religious belief is that religion imposes curtailments on fun. And fun is becoming more and more important to people. This notion that they are turning into philosophical scholars to rethink their beliefs is hooey. They wanna screw, they wanna do drugs, and religion is a downer on those activities.

Weak. Sauce.

[MR2-Sooner86]

http://www.landoverbaptist.net/
Great place

No. I refuse to believe people are that god damn stupid.

Questions that evolutionist can’t answer (http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=3498)


Account for the missing land sharks
If we evolved from fish, why haven’t sharks, who according to your theory predate us, evolved into land animals and are hunting us?

Explain floods on Mars with out the Great Flood of the Bible
If Noah’s flood didn’t happen then how do explain the evidence of a great flood on Mars?[/

Account for fools
If evolution is survival of the fittest then how do explain the continued survival of unsuccessful groups of stupid humans?

Explain why human's aren't perfect
If we are evolving why don’t we have third arms now?

Explain infant murder
If we are evolved to nature our young then how do you secular humanist explain your groups pathological desire to kill yours with abortions?

Why no bodies?
If humanity was roughly a million people living at one time. If the human race is 150,000 years old like you maintain that means there have been 150,000,000,000 who lived before the current era. If each corpse takes up 3 by 6 feet then that means the remains of human ancestors cover 1350 billion square feet of the earth! Why are we not buried under the remains of 150 billion people?

Were do angels and demons fit into the Evolutionist tree of life?
Please explain the earliest common ancestor with all animals, angles and demons. What is their ancestry and transitional form?

Explain talking snake in the garden threw evolution.
Please tell me when serpents lost the power of speech and the process with which it happened. Please include any fossil of impaired speech snakes.

Explain the Loch Ness Monster threw evolution.
I find it hard to believe that a whole species can sustain itself from so few individuals as observed in Loch Ness. Sounds like a hole in your theory to me

If evolution is true, then why don't trees stretch up to the stratosphere?
Scientists say that trees grow taller and taller because natural selection forces them to compete for light with other trees. However, they have supposedly had hundreds of millions of years to evolve, but the tallest tree in the world is a mere 370 feet tall.

If evolution were true, we should be living in pitch dark, because the entire troposphere would be encased in a big sheet of tree leaves. Asked by Pastor Billy-Rueben

Why don't we act like monkeys
If we are evolved from monkeys why do we behave like them; service our selves constantly an throw our feces about? Asked by Eight or Better

Why are there still monkey?
Evolution predicts the stronger species (humans) would crush and exterminate the weaker species(monkeys) it evolved from. Asked by ChristianSoldier

Please account for quick extinctions.
According to evolution theory it takes millions of years for a species to go extinct. Yet we have examples of species dying out in a few hunderd years like the Dodo. Please account for this.

Were are ancestors and fossilizes remains of the dragon, satyr and unicorn?
I would say the lack of fossils for these three creatures presents a clear gap in the record.

Why are no human ancestors mentioned in The Bible?
The very fact that Neandertals, Homo-Erectuces are not mentioned in The Bible proves they are made up. I mean you would think God would have mentioned them 6,000 years ago when He wrote The Bible. duh.

Explain wasps with evolution.
Wasp paralyze spiders and then implant their young in them to feed on living, but helpless insect. If evolution was true them spiders would have anti-wasp poison in their blood. But they don’t. The only way you can get such a horrific death as those countless spiders suffer is threw the power of God.

How could Cain could procreate with his sisters if evolution was true?
If can was getting busy with his sister like The Bible relates then the human race should be a race of inbreed deformities like the English Royal Family. Instead we see the general population is healthy. This can only happen if Cain and his sister were of the pure first generation after Adam not corrupted by sins yet.

The Genealogy of Henry III
The "Evidence From Genealogy" display, donated by Edgar Nurnberg, is one of the more favorite displays of our visitors. These scrolls from the Lambeth Palace in England trace the genealogy of King Henry the 6th back to Adam and Eve.
Asked by Heathen Basher 8/18/09

Unicorn Horns
What so-called "evoloutionary role" does the horn on a unicorn play? I was taught evolutionary theory, and I can't figure it out! Asked by H. Montague Worthington's 8/24/09

Transitional fossils for single celled organism.
The Darwinists would have us believe that life evolved from single-celled organisms to more complicated forms. If that's true, then we should expect to see intermediaries between organisms with one cell and organisms with millions/billions/trillions of cells, but that's exactly what we don't see. Where are all the two-celled organisms that we should see if evolution was true? Where are all the five-celled organisms or twelve-celled organisms? Are we supposed to believe that 50 million amoebas randomly assembled into a fully formed flatworm by chance? Asked by Pastor Billy-Reuben. 8/25/09

Why is there still mud?
Darwinists claim that life originate in mud. If you really believe that a big pile of mud turned into a fish, which sprouted legs and arms and turned into monkeys, which turned into human beings, then you're more stupid than I thought. For a start, if that's true, why's there still mud around, and why do babies not have tails like monkeys when they're born? Asked by Rachel Pierce 11/4/09

Why don't chemicals think?
If our brains are just a mishmash of biochemistry, how come chemicals like gasoline or bug spray can't think? Rev. Jim Osborne 1/11/10

Why don't we have natural clothing?
People have been wearing clothes for thousands of years. Why haven't our bodies evolved natural clothes that come out of our skin then? Rev. Jim Osborne 1/11/10

[Fraggle145]

No. I refuse to believe people are that god damn stupid.

Questions that evolutionist can’t answer (http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=3498)

I can answer all of those.

[JohnnyMack]

No. I refuse to believe people are that god damn stupid.

Questions that evolutionist can’t answer (http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=3498)

Uhhhh...the Bobby Joe guy who posted that thread has a great avatar...

[Position Limit]

did the romans get it right with the christians? thow em all to lions.

[saucysoonergal]

Threw does not = Through.

[The Profit]

did the romans get it right with the christians? thow em all to lions.




They didn't throw them all--just the tasty ones. Besides, that was only NERO. Constantine was also a Roman, wasn't he?

[AlboSooner]

did the romans get it right with the christians? thow em all to lions.

Some say the worst thing that happened to Christianity was Constantine. He probably saw Christianity for the first time in the Balkans or as it is known by its Christian name, Byzantium, where the apostle Paul preached himself many many years before Constantine was born.

[The Profit]

Some say the worst thing that happened to Christianity was Constantine. He probably saw Christianity for the first time in the Balkans or as it is known by its Christian name, Byzantium, where the apostle Paul preached himself many many years before Constantine was born.




Without Constantine, the religion (like many of the similar religions of the time) would probably have died on the proverbial vine. Paul gets much too much credit.

[AlboSooner]

Without Constantine, the religion (like many of the similar religions of the time) would probably have died on the proverbial vine. Paul gets much too much credit.

Christianity thrives under persecution. Any exponential expansion of the Church has occurred under persecution, be it the Apostles after Christ's ascension, be it the churches in Rome and Byzantium, be it the churches of the reformation, be it the exodus of the Puritans to the New Land, and be it the explosion of the Church in China with 100 million members strong.

That is the way God works: He turns the appearing weakness and persecution, into glory, because the Church is always the strongest when it is persecuted the most.

The mingling of politics and religion in the Roman empire, and post-Roman empire has brought more loss than gain to the Church of Christ.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Do you ever read your own posts? Are screwing and doing drugs new activities? People never did that in the past?

My take on it is we can now explain some of the things that used to be mysterious 2400 years ago but the hardcores don't want to admit. Time, yeah we figured that one out (a little longer than 6000 years has passed), Earth (and by extension Man) at the center of things, nope, evolution (as opposed to every species alive being set here on Earth exactly as we see them today), yes. Kinda takes some of the bloom off the rose that there is an authority other than the Bible. I mean, it was nice that someone calmed the ignorants saying that bright flash and following boom were made by Big JuJu and He won't like it if you don't worship Him, but now we understand what is going on and don't have to slaughter bulls or virgins in His name. But if it gives you comfort then by all means, believe . . .

I only know what's going on after about 10 shots of tequila.

[3rdgensooner]

BTW, here's an analysis (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/03/imagine_a_perfectly_spherical.php)of the methodology in the OP.

[The Profit]

Christianity thrives under persecution. Any exponential expansion of the Church has occurred under persecution, be it the Apostles after Christ's ascension, be it the churches in Rome and Byzantium, be it the churches of the reformation, be it the exodus of the Puritans to the New Land, and be it the explosion of the Church in China with 100 million members strong.

That is the way God works: He turns the appearing weakness and persecution, into glory, because the Church is always the strongest when it is persecuted the most.

The mingling of politics and religion in the Roman empire, and post-Roman empire has brought more loss than gain to the Church of Christ.



Excuse me, but the Christian church has persecuted much more than Christians have been persecuted.

[AlboSooner]

Excuse me, but the Christian church has persecuted much more than Christians have been persecuted.

I don't know why you switched gears, but I disagree with this new premise.

I don't know if you are serious with this, because you had a week or two where you just tried to troll people.

[The Profit]

I don't know why you switched gears, but I disagree with this new premise.

I don't know if you are serious with this, because you had a week or two where you just tried to troll people.




I never tried to troll people. I am very serious about this. I firmly believe that without Constantine and the Nicene council, Christianity would have died long ago. There was at least one other religion that featured a hero from a virgin birth, who died and rose again. Other religions failed because they lacked a real authority to implement them. Constantine had that authority.

Regarding my other point, how many people have been slain because they were Christians? How many "so-called Christians" have used their religion to murder others (e.g. crusades, Spanish inquisition, other wars started by Popes, etc.). I promise you; the numbers are not even close.

[AlboSooner]

I disagree with your premise that Christianity is another run of the mill faith, who just stumbled on some good leaders.

Regarding your second post, you yourself said so-called Christians. So-called Christians are no Christians. We must never judge a philosophy by the abuse done in its name. I doubt you have a handle on the numbers.

[The Profit]

I disagree with your premise that Christianity is another run of the mill faith, who just stumbled on some good leaders.

Regarding your second post, you yourself said so-called Christians. So-called Christians are no Christians. We must never judge a philosophy by the abuse done in its name. I doubt you have a handle on the numbers.




You can google the numbers. I wrote "so-called Christians" because some, who call themselves Christians rarely exemplify the ideals taught by Jesus Christ. Early Christianity was lucky it had such a powerful sponsor. Then, for the first 1,400 years of Christianity, church leaders were smart enough to know that they needed real political power to promote their message.

[AlboSooner]

I am not interested in numbers, as even one life lost innocently for me is a tragedy. Once again, so-called Christians are no Christians.

I am a little confused as to what specific point you are trying to make. I am not here trying to defend those barbaric acts performed by the so-called Christians. The crusades, much like the wars of today, were geopolitical and economical wars, passed under some so-called greater cause for God.

I believe we see Christianity in different lights. You see it as a political movement with an earthly agenda; a movement which needs man to succeed. I see it as a spiritual movement with a heavenly agenda (Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world), who only needs God to succeed.

[The Profit]

I am not interested in numbers, as even one life lost innocently for me is a tragedy. Once again, so-called Christians are no Christians.

I am a little confused as to what specific point you are trying to make. I am not here trying to defend those barbaric acts performed by the so-called Christians. The crusades, much like the wars of today, were geopolitical and economical wars, passed under some so-called greater cause for God.

I believe we see Christianity in different lights. You see it as a political movement with an earthly agenda; a movement which needs man to succeed. I see it as a spiritual movement, who only needs God to succeed.




And I have complete respect for your beliefs.

[AlboSooner]

And I have complete respect for your beliefs.

so do I for yours.

[The Maestro]

I feel like I have been watching people IM.

[The Profit]

so do I for yours.




By the way, I really liked what JFK said about religion. "On earth, God's work must truly be our own."

[JohnnyMack]

I feel like I have been watching people IM.

Yeah, I think they're about to kiss.

[AlboSooner]

By the way, I really liked what JFK said about religion. "On earth, God's work must truly be our own."

I don't know the context of that quote, but I don't like most of the work we do on earth.

Profit we have debated for a long time. I have never asked you this, what is God to you? What do you think some of his qualities are? Who is Jesus to you?

[The Profit]

I don't know the context of that quote, but I don't like most of the work we do on earth.

Profit we have debated for a long time. I have never asked you this, what is God to you? What do you think some of his qualities are? Who is Jesus to you?



My faith wavers from time-to-time. I am a very strong believer in God. I believe Christianity would be much better off if everyone lived by Christ's teaching in his sermon on the mount. As for Paul, I am not a big fan. I believe he was a blow hard.

[AlboSooner]

Well Paul didn't have a high regard of himself either. What is God to you? What are some of his qualities?

[The Maestro]

(Now I wish they were IM'ing)

Here is a Frank Zappa quote to lighten the mood...

"The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on."

[MR2-Sooner86]

**** this **** I'm with Maestro. Lets lighten the mood.

http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2010/babies-tasty.jpg

http://funnyatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/christianity-atheism.jpg

http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/atheism-motivation.jpg

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/atheist.gif

http://www.sciscoop.com/images/atheist-scientists.jpg

http://www.sciscoop.com/images/atheist-motivation.jpg

http://www.burbuja.info/inmobiliaria/attachments/guarderia/28450d1283798698-stephen-hawking-descarta-dios-como-creador-del-universo-atheism-03.jpg

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0810/fossils-bible-jesus-god-stupid-atheist-christian-scientists-demotivational-poster-1225320813.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uuEaCUoipUg/SjXe0iApUfI/AAAAAAAABSo/Bf3JEFCnYhs/s400/Atheist+Motivational+Poster+-+Women+in+The+Bible.jpg

http://lolympics.com/files/images/motivational-poster-the-bible.jpg

[My Opinion Matters]

These threads are silly. For those of you that didn't get the memo: All the scientific (and therefore smartest) people in the world decided the universe happened by accident.

The rest of us just need to catch up with the smarter people.

[The Profit]

Well Paul didn't have a high regard of himself either. What is God to you? What are some of his qualities?




God is everything. He is the beginning and will ultimately be the end. He is everything in between.

[AlboSooner]

Well a certain Albert said God doesn't play dice, and that there is no free lunch. Sounds like smartest people in the world are just as divided about this, as us the internet heroes, decorum keepers, and mood lighter-uppers. :)

[AlboSooner]

God is everything. He is the beginning and will ultimately be the end. He is everything in between.

So you have a pantheistic view of God, that God is both the Creator and the creation? Thank you for your response.

[The Maestro]

**** this **** I'm with Maestro. Lets lighten the mood.

http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2010/babies-tasty.jpg

http://funnyatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/christianity-atheism.jpg

http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/atheism-motivation.jpg

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/atheist.gif

http://www.sciscoop.com/images/atheist-scientists.jpg

http://www.sciscoop.com/images/atheist-motivation.jpg

http://www.burbuja.info/inmobiliaria/attachments/guarderia/28450d1283798698-stephen-hawking-descarta-dios-como-creador-del-universo-atheism-03.jpg

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0810/fossils-bible-jesus-god-stupid-atheist-christian-scientists-demotivational-poster-1225320813.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uuEaCUoipUg/SjXe0iApUfI/AAAAAAAABSo/Bf3JEFCnYhs/s400/Atheist+Motivational+Poster+-+Women+in+The+Bible.jpg

http://lolympics.com/files/images/motivational-poster-the-bible.jpg

Classic! Thanks for those!

[Mississippi Sooner]

The Women in the Bible one made me LOL.

[47straight]

What is going on with religion in China?


They've achieved the separation of church and state that you've always dreamed of.

[Fraggle145]

Well a certain Albert said God doesn't play dice, and that there is no free lunch. Sounds like smartest people in the world are just as divided about this, as us the internet heroes, decorum keepers, and mood lighter-uppers. :)

Please do not quote Albert as theist. He was far from it. He has 2-3 quotes that are often taken out of context. He has multitudes more showing him to be in the very least agnostic if not an atheist.

por ejemplo: “I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil.” and “I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation and is but a reflection of human frailty.”

[Ike]

Well a certain Albert said God doesn't play dice, and that there is no free lunch. Sounds like smartest people in the world are just as divided about this, as us the internet heroes, decorum keepers, and mood lighter-uppers. :)

A certain Albert was also famously wrong about god playing dice. He offered up that quote as part of a refutation of quantum mechanics...Despite A.E.'s best objections to QM, QM has held up quite well....

[MR2-Sooner86]

He has multitudes more showing him to be in the very least agnostic if not an atheist.

He was an agnostic.

"I'm absolutely not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza’s pantheism, but admire even more his contribution to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and body as one, and not two separate things."

[MR2-Sooner86]

P47OC439x88&feature
glRAN_8CkvQ&feature
urlTBBKTO68&feature

[AlboSooner]

Looks like there isn't even an agreement amongst atheists, whether Einstein was a theist, atheist, agnostic, pantheist, or just anti-QM.

My broader point was that plenty of brilliant scientist have been and are Christians. For the sake of reason, if you don't believe in God, don't say you're an atheist. That word has been abandoned long ago by the old atheists. They're going with agnostic now.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

No. I refuse to believe people are that god damn stupid.

Questions that evolutionist can’t answer (http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=3498)
http://images.whatport80.com/images/thumb/c/cf/Trollface.jpg/400px-Trollface.jpg

[OhU1]

Looks like there isn't even an agreement amongst atheists, whether Einstein was a theist, atheist, agnostic, pantheist, or just anti-QM.

My broader point was that plenty of brilliant scientist have been and are Christians. For the sake of reason, if you don't believe in God, don't say you're an atheist. That word has been abandoned long ago by the old atheists. They're going with agnostic now.

Oh brother :rolleyes: atheism pertains to what you believe agnosticism pertains to what you know. An atheist rejects or does not believe theistic assertions that a god exists. Atheists generally do not assert that they know no gods exists.

Your claim that the term atheist is being abandoned is false. The term agnostic is misused in common speech to indicate a kind of "soft atheism" or a "fence sitting" kind of theological middle ground. Agnostics are atheist. Belief is an affirmative act. Because agnostics do not actively believe in any existing god claim they lack a theism. Many folks call themselves "agnostic" because they say they are open to accepting god claims if they are given convincing evidence or proof. So are atheists! (with the exception of so called "strong atheists" who are making a positive claim "I know no gods exist" - I've never met one of those). Another reason is the word "atheist" seems too "radical" to some.

The term "agnostic atheist" is most accurate and what most atheists would label themselves given the meaning of the terms. Agnostic atheism means "I don't know if a god exists" and "I do not believe in a god".

[Fraggle145]

^This.

[AlboSooner]

Oh brother atheism pertains to what you believe agnosticism pertains to what you know. An atheist rejects or does not believe theistic assertions that a god exists. Atheists generally do not assert that they know no gods exists.

If taken at their root, and how the phrases were first used, atheist comes from the Greek words a-theos, meaning negative/without God. It is an assertion of the absence of God. That's a fallacy. You can't negate an absolute.

Agnostic comes from the Greek words a-ngosis, without knowledge, or one who doesn't know.

Feel free to redefine, twist, modify, evolve, replicate, transcribe, translate, methylate, isomerate, aldolate, redoxate, acylate, as you wish.

I don't understand the certainty some express while claiming to be uncertain. Neither do I understand the pride in uncertainty.

[Fraggle145]

If taken at their root, and how the phrases were first used, atheist comes from the Greek words a-theos, meaning negative/without God. It is an assertion of the absence of God. That's a fallacy. You can't negate an absolute.

Agnostic comes from the Greek words a-ngosis, without knowledge, or one who doesn't know.

Feel free to redefine, twist, modify, evolve, replicate, transcribe, translate, methylate, isomerate, aldolate, redoxate, acylate, as you wish.

I don't understand the certainty some express while claiming to be uncertain. Neither do I understand the pride in uncertainty.

Except it isnt an absolute - depending on your beliefs.

[Leroy Lizard]

This thread is so screwed up that not even I can mess it up.

[JohnnyMack]

Oh sure you can. Don't sell yourself short.

[KC//CRIMSON]

Religion *hit List

Taoism: *hit happens.
Confucianism: Confucius say, "*hit happens."
Buddhism: If *hit happens, it isn't really *hit.
Hinduism: This *hit has happened before.
Islam: If *hit happens, it is the will of Allah.
Catholicism: If *hit happens, you deserve it.
Protestantism: Let *hit happen to someone else.
Presbyterian: This *hit was bound to happen.
Baptist: You're all *hitting the wrong way!
Episcopalian: It's not so bad if *hit happens, as long as you serve the right wine with it.
Judaism: Why does *hit always happen to us?
Methodist: It's not so bad if *hit happens, as long as you serve grape juice with it.
Unitarian: *hit that happens to one person is just as bad as *hit that happens to another.
Lutheran: If *hit happens, don't talk about it.
Fundamentalism: If *hit happens, you will go to hell, unless you are born again. (Amen!)
Christian Science: When *hit happens, don't call a doctor - pray!
Jehovah's Witnesses: >Knock< >Knock< *hit happens.
Atheism: I don't believe this *hit!

[MR2-Sooner86]

http://sn0tty.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/jesusymca.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NHmGTuCTevI/S7GfWe71jdI/AAAAAAAAAEA/Jgv4YWrgZxU/s1600/633966455605727940-humor.jpg

http://www.thenoseonyourface.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/veiled-muslim-copy.jpg

http://www.artsjournal.com/anotherbb/simpsonschalkboard.jpg

http://thebaumer.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/southpark_muhammad_cartoon.gif

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lad0fuPdEE1qd7hayo1_500.jpg

http://www.thenoseonyourface.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/islam-motivator.jpg

[Aldebaran]

It is entirely unoriginal for religious adherents to insist on defining outsiders without input.

[The Maestro]

Looks like there isn't even an agreement amongst atheists, whether Einstein was a theist, atheist, agnostic, pantheist, or just anti-QM.

Maybe the Baptist, Southern Baptist, American Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans, Catholics, Non-Denominational, Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Seventh Day Adventist, Quakers, Amish and Episcopalians can all get together and determine what kind of non-believer he was...since they all agree on so much.

[AlboSooner]

Absence of uniformity must not be mistaken for absence of unity. I just don't have enough faith not to believe in God.

[KantoSooner]

Maybe the Baptist, Southern Baptist, American Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans, Catholics, Non-Denominational, Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Seventh Day Adventist, Quakers, Amish and Episcopalians can all get together and determine what kind of non-believer he was...since they all agree on so much.

You are appropriately screen named.

[Mississippi Sooner]

I was raised a Methobapterian.

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

P47OC439x88&feature
glRAN_8CkvQ&feature
urlTBBKTO68&feature

Is this guy for real?

wow...

[cccasooner2]

Is this guy for real?

wow...


Checkmate.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Is this guy for real?

wow...

swlsqkAyxqY&feature

;)

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

swlsqkAyxqY&feature

;)

I can't even stand to listen to this guy.

All of his arguments go back to "Because it says it in the bible" What if someone doesn't believe the bible?

[MR2-Sooner86]

I can't even stand to listen to this guy.

All of his arguments go back to "Because it says it in the bible" What if someone doesn't believe the bible?

sat·ire [sat-ahuhr] –noun
the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.

;)

[BOOMERBRADLEY]

sat·ire [sat-ahuhr] –noun
the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.

;)

I honestly couldn't tell. That's all the argument ever is

[KantoSooner]

Pretty much.


Unless, of course, you attended skool in Canzus, then yew know whuts whut.

[KC//CRIMSON]

u9SS95q2kpg

[pphilfran]

This one is better...

a54iqEr1flQ

[The Profit]

This one is better...

a54iqEr1flQ




Just shows how weird religion can become. I draw the line at any church, where people throw their hands in the air.

[saucysoonergal]

Just shows how weird religion can become. I draw the line at any church, where people throw their hands in the air.

Just throw your hands in the air like you just don't care...


Not only do they do that at church, but at dance halls too!!!



;)

[The Profit]

Just throw your hands in the air like you just don't care...


Not only do they do that at church, but at dance halls too!!!



;)




I like it at dance halls.

[Sooner_Bob]

We need that video of the farting preacher . . .

[The Profit]

We need that video of the farting preacher . . .




There are several versions of it now. All of them are funny.