Breaking News: Liberal Wisconsin Judge issues temporary restraining order

[soonercruiser]

What a stupid statement. We can't hire firefighters and/or police unless they are in a union? :D You really need to get a grip.

Grew up in PA & WV with all volunteer fire departments.
I realize this can't work for big cities. But.....just sayin".

[soonercruiser]

As an ex-resident of Wisky, it seems that the three problems that likely led to the "ghost county" issue are:

1- Property taxes are high compared with other states.
2- Not a lot of job growth.
3- It was cold a lot.

Wisconsin's a great state to stretch your legs and go hunting and fishing into your retirement years --- but a lot of people get sick of the cold weather by retirement time and move south. Many others get sick of the cold before retirement and move south earlier. Still others got sick of the high taxes, lack of jobs and cold and moved south immediately.

I imagine people in Wisconsin seeing their neighbors leave feel about how Oklahomans do when they see people move to Texas. They don't like it, but they understand why.

The dam* taxes are too dam* high!
:D

[MamaMia]

Why are governments doing this in the first place? It is none of their business. Because these are state union workers who are paid with tax dollars. They shouldn't even have a union because they are employed by the people.

[saucysoonergal]

Because these are state union workers who are paid with tax dollars. They shouldn't even have a union because they are employed by the people.

Collective bargaining prevents strikes. You don't want firefighters and the po po to be out on strike.

[OutlandTrophy]

Collective bargaining prevents strikes. You don't want firefighters and the po po to be out on strike.

how many martinis did you have at lunch?

[MamaMia]

Collective bargaining prevents strikes. You don't want firefighters and the po po to be out on strike.or Air Traffic Controllers? Screw them if they strike. A lot of people would like to have their jobs.

[TitoMorelli]

or Air Traffic Controllers? Screw them if they strike. A lot of people would like to have their jobs.

Sure, you can get plenty of sleep on the job.:D

[MamaMia]

Sure, you can get plenty of sleep on the job.:D

For realz. Anyone can do that. :P

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MamaMia again."
REALLY, MODS...

JUST WHAT ARE THE NEW RULES FOR SPECK, ANYWAY?

[MamaMia]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to MamaMia again."
REALLY, MODS...

JUST WHAT ARE THE NEW RULES FOR SPECK, ANYWAY?

You have to neg 15 Dems before you can spek me again. :P

Its okay...Its the thought that counts. I guess :rolleyes:

[Tulsa_Fireman]

or Air Traffic Controllers? Screw them if they strike. A lot of people would like to have their jobs.

No, you don't get it.

They CAN'T. It's prohibited by law. Or conduct a work slowdown or sick-out, or any other interruption in services.

Another nugget of reality is that regardless of the benefits negotiated in or out of a contract with public sector employees, the governmental agency has the ultimate trump card REGARDLESS of what is negotiated or even established through binding arbitration. They can submit the increase or decrease to a vote of the people.

I say again, the governmental agency has the ultimate power to give the people the ultimate power to decide for themselves what is right and fair compensation. Regardless of what an arbitrator decides.

That is the power found in legislation such as the Fire and Police Arbitration Act here in Oklahoma. So while you may think striking collective bargaining is some victory against union thugs and pillagers of the working man's tax dollar, the fact is collective bargaining language eliminates work stoppages in the most vital of service areas, gives the PEOPLE the power to decide above and beyond any outside influence, and restricts the employee group to specific ground rules to follow with fairness in every step.

Neat, ain't it? Or are we still hating on the overall vague premise instead of the sh*t that's actually broken?

[Mongo]

No, you don't get it.

They CAN'T. It's prohibited by law. Or conduct a work slowdown or sick-out, or any other interruption in services.

Another nugget of reality is that regardless of the benefits negotiated in or out of a contract with public sector employees, the governmental agency has the ultimate trump card REGARDLESS of what is negotiated or even established through binding arbitration. They can submit the increase or decrease to a vote of the people.

I say again, the governmental agency has the ultimate power to give the people the ultimate power to decide for themselves what is right and fair compensation. Regardless of what an arbitrator decides.
I'
That is the power found in legislation such as the Fire and Police Arbitration Act here in Oklahoma. So while you may think striking collective bargaining is some victory against union thugs and pillagers of the working man's tax dollar, the fact is collective bargaining language eliminates work stoppages in the most vital of service areas, gives the PEOPLE the power to decide above and beyond any outside influence, and restricts the employee group to specific ground rules to follow with fairness in every step.

Neat, ain't it? Or are we still hating on the overall vague premise instead of the sh*t that's actually broken?

So, as a tulsa fireman, you would be OK with a public vote for bennie/pension/pay scale matters? You would agree, since the governmental agency has the ultimate say so, collective bargaining is not needed?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

So, as a tulsa fireman, you would be OK with a public vote for bennie/pension/pay scale matters?

Yes. Regardless of what's said, who says it, and how it's said, I am a public servant. The public, either through their elected representation or their vote, has the ultimate say-so in these matters because the simple fact is that they're the boss.


You would agree, since the governmental agency has the ultimate say so, collective bargaining is not needed?

No I wouldn't agree. Because collective bargaining as a premise isn't the boogeyman here. Collective bargaining legislation is simply the tool used by BOTH parties, employee and municipality, to manage working conditions, compensation, workplace safety, methodology of management, and a number of other issues. And because of the public aspect of the collective bargaining legislation, the municipality need to be assured of certain specific guarantees. That they retain the right to submit offers to the will of the people, they eliminate any means of interruption of critical safety services, they preserve the right to manage and assign personnel as they see fit, and a large number of other things that rest solely within the bailiwick of management.

For example, employee discipline. While the method is defined in our collective bargaining agreement, procedure and practice is defined in policy and procedure. The how and why is the city's. The method to make sure it stays consistent for all is found contractually. Is that a bad thing? Nope, for both parties. It removes a large part of the city's exposure to wrongful termination and harassment suits. It allows the city to still conduct business as its elected and appointed leaders see fit through policy and ordinance. And it gives Joe Worker the comfort in knowing that if I do X like Bob did X, and Bob got fired for it, I can expect to get fired.

Likewise with the legalities of employee relations. Given our line of work and the many exemptions found under federal legislation such as the Fair Labor Standards Act and CFRs, with collective bargaining we can define these exemptions for the specific employee group and remove the City from the liability of having employees multiclassed. As an employee of the city, I am liable to adhere to City of Tulsa policy and procedure as well as TFD policy and procedure along with the many state and federal laws that impact our line of work. Issues such as the 52 hour overtime exemption in FLSA apply to our specific employee group, but not the entirety of the employee group. And with the dynamic changes in personnel and positions and the City reserving the right to manage as she sees fit, these issues are defined in the CBA so that they can be reviewed on an annual basis to ensure the appropriate laws are applied to the appropriate personnel.

Wages and benefits are only a sliver of what collective bargaining offers. The majority of benefits are enjoyed by the employer through the definition of roles, employee responsibilities, specific legal references to employee group specific issues, disciplinary methods, and others. The collective bargaining agreement (contract) allows all that to be wrapped up in a concise, neat package to the specific employee group.

So with all THAT, AND the fact that having collective bargaining legislation in place actually makes not just strikes, but ANY concerted effort in work stoppage or slowdown a violation of the law, AND the fact that the people have the vehicle to have the final say in compensation because of that collective bargaining legislation, would you not agree that collective bargaining laws for critical public safety entities is actually a necessity?

[hawaii 5-0]

Heres another analogy for you. My neighbor hires you to walk his fat azz dogs. Knowing the need to work off the results of eating an over abundance of pig ears and doggy goodies and knowing you only have a limited amount of time to get the dogs in good shape, you decide to run with them instead. Should your neighbor bitch and whine about it?




(Neighbor) "Hey I paid you money to WALK my dogs. One had heartworms, the other gets heat exhaustion. Now they're both DEAD. Didn't I say WALK the dogs? Instead of following my instructions, you took it on your own selfishness to RUN MY DOGS TO DEATH. Why would you do such a dumbass thing?"


(Dogwalker) "You didn't say anything about not running the dogs."



5-0

[MamaMia]

(Neighbor) "Hey I paid you money to WALK my dogs. One had heartworms, the other gets heat exhaustion. Now they're both DEAD. Didn't I say WALK the dogs? Instead of following my instructions, you took it on your own selfishness to RUN MY DOGS TO DEATH. Why would you do such a dumbass thing?"


(Dogwalker) "You didn't say anything about not running the dogs."



5-0

(DOG WALKER) They aren't dead. They're sleeping because they aren't use to being walked by their owner who expects everyone else to do everything for him. The heat exhaustion is from all your hot air so STFU. And if you're too cheap to buy some advantage you don't deserve a dog. I'm calling animal welfare on you. You will never have another dog again!

[hawaii 5-0]

The Bull**** Meter is through the roof. Your weak effort to spin the truth about politics in Wisconsin is sadly inane.

You don't get and it's no use arguing with a stump.

The Wisconsin voters were sold a bill of goods they didn't ask for. There's a very good reason Walker didn't mention union busting while campaigning. He would have never been elected. To think otherwise is foolish.

Both Walker and Senate Majority Leader Fitzgerald have admitted the (tongue-in-cheek) Budget Repair Bill wasn't about the money but about union busting and controlling power.

Even a non-partison group in Wisconsin has recently said that Walker's proposed budget would put the state in the red anouther 1%.

The people are mad. Mad as hell. Mad enough to recall the toads that voted for the Union Crushing Bill. Soon they'll be out on their ear and the people of Wisconsin will be on their way to getting their State back.


5-0

[okie52]

Well I'm sure the unions are mad but i doubt they voted for walker anyway.

The people of Wisconsin are mad....? Heh heh, yeah I'll bet they are crying rivers over public employees losing their collective bargaining rights while Wisconsin has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country. Everybody loves the idea of public employees having unions.

Power to the people. Sail on O ship of state. The proletariat rules!!!!

[GKeeper316]

No, you don't get it.

They CAN'T. It's prohibited by law. Or conduct a work slowdown or sick-out, or any other interruption in services.

Another nugget of reality is that regardless of the benefits negotiated in or out of a contract with public sector employees, the governmental agency has the ultimate trump card REGARDLESS of what is negotiated or even established through binding arbitration. They can submit the increase or decrease to a vote of the people.

I say again, the governmental agency has the ultimate power to give the people the ultimate power to decide for themselves what is right and fair compensation. Regardless of what an arbitrator decides.

That is the power found in legislation such as the Fire and Police Arbitration Act here in Oklahoma. So while you may think striking collective bargaining is some victory against union thugs and pillagers of the working man's tax dollar, the fact is collective bargaining language eliminates work stoppages in the most vital of service areas, gives the PEOPLE the power to decide above and beyond any outside influence, and restricts the employee group to specific ground rules to follow with fairness in every step.

Neat, ain't it? Or are we still hating on the overall vague premise instead of the sh*t that's actually broken?

nuh uh unions r bad. i know this because i live in oklahoma and we were dumb enough to pass right to work.

it will create jobs they said... so what if those jobs were **** like hotel maid and dishwasher... they're still jobs, right?

[okie52]

nuh uh unions r bad. i know this because i live in oklahoma and we were dumb enough to pass right to work.

it will create jobs they said... so what if those jobs were **** like hotel maid and dishwasher... they're still jobs, right?

Because right to work killed jobs....duh only unions create jobs...that's why they are so popular.

About the only place left for unions is the government sector because they don't have to compete against foreign competition. Duhhhhhhh

[MamaMia]

The Bull**** Meter is through the roof. Your weak effort to spin the truth about politics in Wisconsin is sadly inane.

You don't get and it's no use arguing with a stump.

The Wisconsin voters were sold a bill of goods they didn't ask for. There's a very good reason Walker didn't mention union busting while campaigning. He would have never been elected. To think otherwise is foolish.

Both Walker and Senate Majority Leader Fitzgerald have admitted the (tongue-in-cheek) Budget Repair Bill wasn't about the money but about union busting and controlling power.

Even a non-partison group in Wisconsin has recently said that Walker's proposed budget would put the state in the red anouther 1%.

The people are mad. Mad as hell. Mad enough to recall the toads that voted for the Union Crushing Bill. Soon they'll be out on their ear and the people of Wisconsin will be on their way to getting their State back.


5-0Do you have some proof on that?

Looks like Walkers bill is law now. I guess he doesn't care about what that weirdo judge says. :D

[pphilfran]

Do you have some proof on that?

Looks like Walkers bill is law now. I guess he doesn't care about what that weirdo judge says. :D

Nope...yesterday the Judge issued a second hold...and she is pizzed...

MADISON, Wis. -- A Wisconsin judge for the second time directed the state to put on hold an explosive law that strips most public workers of nearly all their union bargaining rights, ordering officials on Tuesday to follow her original instructions to stand down.

"Apparently that language was either misunderstood or ignored, but what I said was the further implementation of (the law) was enjoined," said a visibly annoyed Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi. "That is what I now want to make crystal clear."

Last week, Sumi issued an emergency injunction prohibiting the Wisconsin secretary of state from formally publishing the law - the final step before it could take effect.

[MamaMia]

Yes. Regardless of what's said, who says it, and how it's said, I am a public servant. The public, either through their elected representation or their vote, has the ultimate say-so in these matters because the simple fact is that they're the boss.



No I wouldn't agree. Because collective bargaining as a premise isn't the boogeyman here. Collective bargaining legislation is simply the tool used by BOTH parties, employee and municipality, to manage working conditions, compensation, workplace safety, methodology of management, and a number of other issues. And because of the public aspect of the collective bargaining legislation, the municipality need to be assured of certain specific guarantees. That they retain the right to submit offers to the will of the people, they eliminate any means of interruption of critical safety services, they preserve the right to manage and assign personnel as they see fit, and a large number of other things that rest solely within the bailiwick of management.

For example, employee discipline. While the method is defined in our collective bargaining agreement, procedure and practice is defined in policy and procedure. The how and why is the city's. The method to make sure it stays consistent for all is found contractually. Is that a bad thing? Nope, for both parties. It removes a large part of the city's exposure to wrongful termination and harassment suits. It allows the city to still conduct business as its elected and appointed leaders see fit through policy and ordinance. And it gives Joe Worker the comfort in knowing that if I do X like Bob did X, and Bob got fired for it, I can expect to get fired.

Likewise with the legalities of employee relations. Given our line of work and the many exemptions found under federal legislation such as the Fair Labor Standards Act and CFRs, with collective bargaining we can define these exemptions for the specific employee group and remove the City from the liability of having employees multiclassed. As an employee of the city, I am liable to adhere to City of Tulsa policy and procedure as well as TFD policy and procedure along with the many state and federal laws that impact our line of work. Issues such as the 52 hour overtime exemption in FLSA apply to our specific employee group, but not the entirety of the employee group. And with the dynamic changes in personnel and positions and the City reserving the right to manage as she sees fit, these issues are defined in the CBA so that they can be reviewed on an annual basis to ensure the appropriate laws are applied to the appropriate personnel.

Wages and benefits are only a sliver of what collective bargaining offers. The majority of benefits are enjoyed by the employer through the definition of roles, employee responsibilities, specific legal references to employee group specific issues, disciplinary methods, and others. The collective bargaining agreement (contract) allows all that to be wrapped up in a concise, neat package to the specific employee group.

So with all THAT, AND the fact that having collective bargaining legislation in place actually makes not just strikes, but ANY concerted effort in work stoppage or slowdown a violation of the law, AND the fact that the people have the vehicle to have the final say in compensation because of that collective bargaining legislation, would you not agree that collective bargaining laws for critical public safety entities is actually a necessity?

Saftey? Are you serious? Thats what OSHA is for.

[sappstuf]

Nope...yesterday the Judge issued a second hold...and she is pizzed...

MADISON, Wis. -- A Wisconsin judge for the second time directed the state to put on hold an explosive law that strips most public workers of nearly all their union bargaining rights, ordering officials on Tuesday to follow her original instructions to stand down.

"Apparently that language was either misunderstood or ignored, but what I said was the further implementation of (the law) was enjoined," said a visibly annoyed Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi. "That is what I now want to make crystal clear."

Last week, Sumi issued an emergency injunction prohibiting the Wisconsin secretary of state from formally publishing the law - the final step before it could take effect.

I hate to see a beautiful woman angry....

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d102/sappstuf/MaryannSumi.jpg

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Little doubt Walker and the R's who now run the state legislature believe that the key to getting the state budget under control is to reverse collective baragaining in the public sector. The nation is watching the cheeseheaded badger state...

[TitoMorelli]

Do you have some proof on that?

Looks like Walkers bill is law now. I guess he doesn't care about what that weirdo judge says. :D

5-0 can see Wisconsin from his back yard.:P

[hawaii 5-0]

5-0 can see Wisconsin from his back yard.:P



Good one.





I stay up on the happenings there because I have 3 relatives and 3 other friends directly involved. Five are still teaching and one is retired but still substitutes. I'll be up there in May.


5-0

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Saftey? Are you serious? Thats what OSHA is for.

Yes I'm serious. Nice job of cherry-picking a single word out of the post to establish a counter argument. C'mon, Mama.

Check this out.

http://www.ok.gov/odol/OSHA_Safety_Pays_Consultation_/OSHA_Consultation_FAQ/

This is an example of what OSHA does in the state of Oklahoma. Inspection, consultation, and verification of workplace safety issues. Due to the dynamic nature of emergency services hazards, OSHA's impact on Oklahoma's fire service is minimal in the emergency environment. They dictate safety needs for facilities and general restrictions as established in CFRs, or the Code of Federal Regulations. Emergency medical service operations are handled through the Department of Transportation.

Trade organizations such as the National Fire Protection Association are composed of members that are familiar with the specifics of operations in the emergency theater and through those members, develop standards and codes. Engineers, firefighters and chiefs, lawyers, and union members are just an example of the number of different people that compose each committee for the mass of NFPA regulations that exist and are updated on a regular basis. These regulations cover anything from sprinkler installation and maintenance, requirements of incident command systems, personal protective clothing, respirator maintenance and usage, firefighter safety and health, the list is massive. But there's a couple of key elements to be understood.

One, NFPA and similar agencies are independent bodies therefore governmental agencies are not subject to findings and recommendations unless they adopt through legislation the NFPA codes. Two, these agencies are composed of specific trade experts not bureaucrats and politicians that understand specifically what firefighter safety is all about. NFPA provides reference, research, and sound policy and cooperates with government agencies such as NIOSH to create a safer workplace. Three, the IAFF has participated massively in NFPA to strive for firefighter safety in all environments.

There's still on average over 100 firefighter deaths per year. That number used to be much larger, even after the inception of the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 which defined and established OSHA. It was only through the efforts of concerned firefighters and legislators that steps began to be made to decrease line of duty deaths and injuries. Those concerned firefighter's voice? Their union. The International Association of Firefighters.

They strive to this day both in conjunction with agencies like NFPA and by themselves to address what threatens our lives. There are massive resources available now through the IAFF to address the number one killer of firefighters, cardiac arrest, from physical wellbeing programs, diet guides, assistance with screenings, et cetera. Massive resources available for the 2nd leading killer of firefighters, motor vehicle incidents, from vehicle accident prevention education to driver training simulations, et cetera. There are volumes of support and educational services available for infectious disease control, bloodborne pathogen exposure, psychological trauma, and many other issues that directly impact firefighter safety.

So no, Mama. It's NOT OSHA's job. Their role is actually extremely small when it comes to firefighter safety.

Does that STILL sound like a bad thing to you? That I have a huge resource of tools at my disposal to be able to be physically and mentally healthy enough, have rules and best practices to guide my actions, have technical know-how to best perform in my range of duties, and have guidelines on what equipment is required for the circumstance in my effort to save your life and property? I for one am damn glad it's there not just for my own butt, but for every Tulsa citizen I serve. And a large part of that is thanks to my fellow firefighters in the IAFF.

[MamaMia]

Look, if the firefighters, police and whomever else still has job safety issues after all these years of having collective bargaining then common sense would tell us that having or not having collective bargaining bargaining is not the issue. You do not need collective bargaining to keep people safe.

B) I didn't cherry pick one word out of anyones post for any other reason than to prevent beating a dead horse. Everything else in the post has already been addressed. What good does it do to repeat oneself? Check the crib notes.

C) That judge can file whatever in the hell she wants until the cows come home and wad her panties up as tight as she likes. Fact is, Walker doesn't care, and apparently neither does the Wisconsin Attorney General. Who's she gonna call? The Ghost Busters? :D

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Look, if the firefighters, police and whomever else still has job safety issues after all these years of having collective bargaining then common sense would tell us that having or not having collective bargaining bargaining is not the issue. You do not need collective bargaining to keep people safe.

So let me get this straight...

You say collective bargaining has squat to do with worker safety (assigning that to OSHA for some reason), I give you a mass of examples of how it does, but because there's still safety issues you say it's an example of how collective bargaining efforts isn't why?

I tried to be respectful but are you purposely dense? Is this seriously some warped "mission from God", a crusade to take something away you yourself don't even understand? What's next? Making all us bloodsucking public sector workers ride the back of the bus? Use a different restroom?

It is THROUGH collective bargaining that a large number of safety critical issues have been addressed with municipalities across the United States! WithOUT collective bargaining we'd still be fighting over plugs, running around in raincoats and eating smoke, let alone have advances in respiratory protection and mandatory implementation of command systems.

This turned into a typical internet argument. It's like fighting a retarded kid with no arms. There's no winner. Your crusade against the demons of collective bargaining is too busy ignoring the actual benefits of it. I can explain, I can treat the injured, but I can't cure voluntary blindness.

I'm done. I hope your crusade dies for my own safety's sake.

[OutlandTrophy]

soooooo, being as the majority of firefighters in this state are volunteers I would think that the Fire unions are on a little shakier ground than say the Police union.

I mean if the majority of people in your profession do it as a hobby/community service how much bargaining power do you as a paid firefighter really have?

Not that it matters but my older brother is a firefighter.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

None.

We're f*cked. He's f*cked. I know your brother and we're ALL f*cked.

[OutlandTrophy]

:D

[OutlandTrophy]

just put a decal in the back glass of your truck that says, Find em hot, leave em wet. Oh and get one of those little flashing red lights for a detective car and slap it on the roof of your truck.

[OutlandTrophy]

can MiccoMacey be f*cked as well? That's all I'm really looking for.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

F*cked right in the a**.

[MamaMia]

So let me get this straight...

You say collective bargaining has squat to do with worker safety (assigning that to OSHA for some reason), I give you a mass of examples of how it does, but because there's still safety issues you say it's an example of how collective bargaining efforts isn't why?

I tried to be respectful but are you purposely dense? Is this seriously some warped "mission from God", a crusade to take something away you yourself don't even understand? What's next? Making all us bloodsucking public sector workers ride the back of the bus? Use a different restroom?

It is THROUGH collective bargaining that a large number of safety critical issues have been addressed with municipalities across the United States! WithOUT collective bargaining we'd still be fighting over plugs, running around in raincoats and eating smoke, let alone have advances in respiratory protection and mandatory implementation of command systems.

This turned into a typical internet argument. It's like fighting a retarded kid with no arms. There's no winner. Your crusade against the demons of collective bargaining is too busy ignoring the actual benefits of it. I can explain, I can treat the injured, but I can't cure voluntary blindness.

I'm done. I hope your crusade dies for my own safety's sake.Oh please. Its real simple. Safety issues can and have been resolved just fine without collective bargaining, and they will continue to be.

[OutlandTrophy]

Mama, we've moved on to f*cking. ;)

[MamaMia]

Mama, we've moved on to f*cking. ;)

I'm very pleased. ;)

[homerSimpsonsBrain]

Oh please. Its real simple. Safety issues can and have been resolved just fine without collective bargaining, and they will continue to be.

And you know this because you've worked as a cop or firefighter?

[hawaii 5-0]

As of today, April 6 things aren't favoring Gov. Walker and his Band of Koch Suckers. Seems everything he's touched has turned to stone.


There's blood in the water and the sharks are circling as the public outrage is being felt in the voting booth.


5-0



Trump/Sheen 2012

[SoonerNate]

As of today, April 6 things aren't favoring Gov. Walker and his Band of Koch Suckers. Seems everything he's touched has turned to stone.


There's blood in the water and the sharks are circling as the public outrage is being felt in the voting booth.


5-0



Trump/Sheen 2012

Tough to take away the left's handouts no doubt. Maybe at some point they can thank the tax payers for all the freeloading? Not counting on it though.

"we are dems and are entitled to YOUR money. Should you demand a stop to us taking it from you against your will we will throw a hissy fit, trash the capitol and question your compassion."

[hawaii 5-0]

Regardless of the outcome Gov Walker will need a wheelbarrow to carry all the Koch bloodmoney to the bank.


He sold his soul to the Devil and now there's hell to pay.



5-0



Trump/Sheen 2012

[SoCaliSooner]

Regardless of the outcome Gov Walker will need a wheelbarrow to carry all the Koch bloodmoney to the bank.


He sold his soul to the Devil and now there's hell to pay.



5-0



Trump/Sheen 2012

George Soros has more money and lib control than Koch. Funny how many more pies and pockets Soros is in yet now you wanna cry about Koch....

[hawaii 5-0]

George Soros has more money and lib control than Koch. Funny how many more pies and pockets Soros is in yet now you wanna cry about Koch....



Walker took the money and turned his back on the people that elected him.

They've seen that it's not about the money or the budget but about political power and the ability to misuse that power to give money to the rich while smacking the little people even more.

Everybody takes money. They're all crooks. Some are just worse than others and right now Gov. Walker is taking the cake.



5-0



Trump/Sheen 2012

[Curly Bill]

I'm usually pretty firmly in the Republican camp. That being said: I got no use for Gov. Walker, or any of the stuff that went on up in Wisconsin.

[SoonerNate]

Walker took the money and turned his back on the people that elected him.

They've seen that it's not about the money or the budget but about political power and the ability to misuse that power to give money to the rich while smacking the little people even more.

Everybody takes money. They're all crooks. Some are just worse than others and right now Gov. Walker is taking the cake.



5-0

You mean to "give it back to them?" If I see a homeless guy steal some pedestrian's money in the street and take it from him and give it back to the pedestrian am I taking from the poor and giving to the rich?




Trump/Sheen 2012

You mean to "give it back to them?" If I see a homeless guy steal some pedestrian's money in the street and take it from him and give it back to the pedestrian am I taking it from the poor and giving to the rich?

See, you are PROVING an attitude of entitlement. To you the thief was entitled to keep it.

[hawaii 5-0]

I was referring to the huge tax breaks he's given to the corporations.


I'm sick of corporations making billions of profits while getting huge tax breaks.


It's happening all over tho, especially in Congress.

The people of Wisconsin have decided to fight back. Walker's recall petitions go out Nov. 4th.


5-0

[hawaii 5-0]

Because of Gov. Walker's Union Busting Bill people got riled up.

Recall petitions went out on big sides.

Voters want to recall the Rupublicans who acted like a bunch of cows being led to slaughter and passed Gov. Walker's Union Smashing Bill. So far one State Senator, Dan Kapanke (R) is under the gun as voters quickly got enough signatures in half the time to get a recall election against him.

Meanwhile Republicans are going after the Democratic AssemblyMen who skipped town and went to Chicago to avoid voting on the Union Smashing Bill. Petitions are going out against them as well.
However, not all recall efforts are finding success. Kurt Paul of Milwaukee, who is leading an effort to recall Sen. Lena Taylor, D-Milwaukee, said Wednesday he so far has only two signatures - his and one other. His 60-day window to gather signatures runs out April 25.



5-0


Trump/Sheen 2012 Winnahs !!!!

[SoonerNate]

Because of Gov. Walker's Union Busting Bill people got riled up.

Recall petitions went out on big sides.

Voters want to recall the Rupublicans who acted like a bunch of cows being led to slaughter and passed Gov. Walker's Union Smashing Bill. So far one State Senator, Dan Kapanke (R) is under the gun as voters quickly got enough signatures in half the time to get a recall election against him.

Meanwhile Republicans are going after the Democratic AssemblyMen who skipped town and went to Chicago to avoid voting on the Union Smashing Bill. Petitions are going out against them as well.
However, not all recall efforts are finding success. Kurt Paul of Milwaukee, who is leading an effort to recall Sen. Lena Taylor, D-Milwaukee, said Wednesday he so far has only two signatures - his and one other. His 60-day window to gather signatures runs out April 25.



5-0


Trump/Sheen 2012 Winnahs !!!!

Let me get this straight. There was an election and the Gov acted on his campaign promisses in essence completing the will of the people so he must go. Yet 14 bailed on their jobs like cowards but they aren't the ones that we should be ashamed of because they are Democrats. Did I accurately display your feelings?

To each his/ her own 5-0 but that seems a bit backasswards to me.

Elections have consequences. The Dems in that state shouldn't coward out and leave the state when they don't get their way as that is chicken ****. (I'm taking my ball and going home)

They look like sore *** losers to me.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Let me get this straight. There was an election and the Gov acted on his campaign promisses in essence completing the will of the people so he must go. Yet 14 bailed on their jobs like cowards but they aren't the ones that we should be ashamed of because they are Democrats. Did I accurately display your feelings?

To each his/ her own 5-0 but that seems a bit backasswards to me.

Elections have consequences. The Dems in that state shouldn't coward out and leave the state when they don't get their way as that is chicken ****. (I'm taking my ball and going home)

They look like sore *** losers to me.You don't get it. Laws are for losers. Ship has sailed. The fight is ON!

[SoonerNate]

You don't get it. Laws are for losers. Ship has sailed. The fight is ON!

I learned of this in November of 2000 when they tried to steal the election from Bush in this county. I went down and protested the chad counting that November Saturday. I remember it well as later that was the day that we barely beat OSU @ home to continue our undefeated season.

[SoCaliSooner]

I'd say it's more the union people who are upset and not the average Wisconsin voter. Unions are essentially the strong arm of the dem party. If "the people" of Wisconsin were so outraged, then this supreme court justice race would be a landslide for the union backer.

[SoonerNate]

I'd say it's more the union people who are upset and not the average Wisconsin voter. Unions are essentially the strong arm of the dem party. If "the people" of Wisconsin were so outraged, then this supreme court justice race would be a landslide for the union backer.

I tend to agree here. The squeaky wheel (loud minority) always gets the grease (bulk of media sensationalizing coverage).

[hawaii 5-0]

Let me get this straight. There was an election and the Gov acted on his campaign promisses in essence completing the will of the people so he must go. Yet 14 bailed on their jobs like cowards but they aren't the ones that we should be ashamed of because they are Democrats. Did I accurately display your feelings?

To each his/ her own 5-0 but that seems a bit backasswards to me.

Elections have consequences. The Dems in that state shouldn't coward out and leave the state when they don't get their way as that is chicken ****. (I'm taking my ball and going home)

They look like sore *** losers to me.



You obviously missed the bigger picture. The Democrats didn't chicken out. They pulled a political maneuver to avoid a quorem which would have led to the Assembly passing Walker's Union Busting Law. They stood up for what is right and were view as heroes by the masses.

Meanwhile the Repubs finally got their act together, illegally split the law separating the union busting from the money section and quickly passed the law anyway. Of course the Court saw through their fast one and prevented the Attorney General from publishing the law.
Walker then tried to sidestep the legal edict of a judge and had someone else publish the law. The judge then put that weak attempt to circumvent the legal process on hold as well. The decision will probably work its way up the the State Supreme Court, currently held 4-3 by Walker asskissers.

But now, one judge who once was the Speaker of the Assembly, has held his judgeship for 12 years and who led his Primary by more than 2 to 1 has now lost his re-election to an unknown Presecutor.
That swings the Supreme Court to the other side 4-3 against Walker.

Of course there will be a recount, so things are still up in the air.

Meanwhile recall petitions are being sign and the Republicans who voted for the Union Bashing Bill will soon be out of jobs. There will be another Bill overturning Walkers Mistake, and next November petitions will go out to dump Walker himself.

......and that's where it stands now. The good folks in Wisconson are happy tonight. Things are turning around.


5-0



Trump/Sheen 2012 Winning is Everything, even to Idiots.

Don't let the truth get in your way tho.

[SoonerNate]

You obviously missed the bigger picture. The Democrats didn't chicken out. They pulled a political maneuver to avoid a quorem which would have led to the Assembly passing Walker's Union Busting Law. They stood up for what is right and were view as heroes by the masses.

Meanwhile the Repubs finally got their act together, illegally split the law separating the union busting from the money section and quickly passed the law anyway. Of course the Court saw through their fast one and prevented the Attorney General from publishing the law.
Walker then tried to sidestep the legal edict of a judge and had someone else publish the law. The judge then put that weak attempt to circumvent the legal process on hold as well. The decision will probably work its way up the the State Supreme Court, currently held 4-3 by Walker asskissers.

But now, one judge who once was the Speaker of the Assembly, has held his judgeship for 12 years and who led his Primary by more than 2 to 1 has now lost his re-election to an unknown Presecutor.
That swings the Supreme Court to the other side 4-3 against Walker.

Of course there will be a recount, so things are still up in the air.

Meanwhile recall petitions are being sign and the Republicans who voted for the Union Bashing Bill will soon be out of jobs. There will be another Bill overturning Walkers Mistake, and next November petitions will go out to dump Walker himself.

......and that's where it stands now. The good folks in Wisconson are happy tonight. Things are turning around.


5-0



Trump/Sheen 2012 Winning is Everything, even to Idiots.

Don't let the truth get in your way tho.

I wouldn't bet on it bud.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I learned of this in November of 2000 when they tried to steal the election from Bush in this county. I went down and protested the chad counting that November Saturday. I remember it well... It's at another level now, compared to then. They're not going through the motionss of feigned lawfulness any more:

Wisconsin 'Ground Zero' of Battle to Reshape America

The fate of the grass-roots push to limit government growth in America hinges on who wins several pitched battles that continue to escalate in Wisconsin, former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and other leading conservatives are warning.

Those melees include recall clashes, high-stakes elections, union campaign scuffles and intense courtroom dramas that have escalated in the Badger State since Gov. Scott Walker set out to cut public-sector entitlements to salvage the state budget.

On Friday, Democrats submitted petitions with more than 20,000 signatures to initiate a recall election against state GOP Sen. Dan Kapanke. Republicans say it’s a blatant effort to punish Kapanke for supporting Walker’s efforts.

Organized labor has poured more than $3 million into Wisconsin to underwrite both the massive recall campaign and a key state Supreme Court election that will be decided April 5.

“Wisconsin is ground zero for the country,” Tea Party Express founder Sal Russo tells Newsmax. “This is the left’s last stand to turn back the tide of what conservatives have been trying to do in the country over the last two years. So we can’t fail there -- it’s ground zero.

“Liberals are trying to say, ‘Even if conservatives win the elections, as we did in a lot of states in 2010, we’ll be able to frustrate and stop them and make it so difficult for them that nobody else will run like that in other states.

“It will bring an end to this conservative tea party revolution that we’ve seen over the last two years,” Russo warns. “That’s their goal: Not just to win in Wisconsin, but to stamp out the tea party movement and fiscal conservatives all over the country. They want to set an example in Wisconsin so that we’ll stop trying in Ohio and Michigan and Pennsylvania and the other states.”

In light of those high stakes, Tea Party Express is airing television ads and a get-out-the-vote campaign on behalf of state Supreme Court Justice David T. Prosser Jr., who is up for re-election Tuesday.

Conservatives on the court, including Prosser, hold a 4-3 advantage over the court’s liberal justices. But if the unions succeed in getting environmental activist JoAnne Kloppenburg elected instead, Democrats will seize control of the court.

That could be critical, because the court is expected to rule on a wave of legal challenges coming from opponents of Walker’s controversial budget-repair bill.

What the skirmishes in Wisconsin ultimately may decide is whether reforms such as those the Republican governor has championed are politically viable or carry too high a price tag at the ballot box. A recent Rasmussen Reports survey shows that Walker’s popularity with voters has taken a significant hit since he rolled out his plan to balance Wisconsin’s budget. According to that March survey, 48 percent of Wisconsin voters now say they “strongly disapprove” of Walker’s performance.

One sign of the growing national importance of the donnybrook in Wisconsin: Palin weighed in on Thursday, posting an endorsement of Prosser on her Facebook page. “Wisconsin, please remember to vote for Justice Prosser on April 5,” she wrote.

Russo says of Palin: “She’s been a big help in crystallizing the issues for Americans. She’s done it consistently and did it again yesterday with her endorsement.”

Prosser also has the endorsement of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel newspaper. But Russo tells Newsmax that Republicans, who perhaps thought the battle against union entitlements had already been won in Wisconsin, are playing catch-up in the contest. More information on the fight over the fate of the state’s Supreme Court is available at TeaPartyExpress.org.

“These statewide elections are notorious for very low voter turnout,” Russo tells Newsmax. “So the motivated voters will make the decision. And right now we’ve been fearful that the motivated voters have been the left-wing unions and their supporters in the state. So that’s the biggest fear we have: That the people of Wisconsin are on our side, but the people who vote on Tuesday aren’t on our side.”

In response, Russo’s organization is handing out phone lists that conservative activists are using to contact Wisconsin conservatives and urge them not to be complacent, and to turn out and vote.

Tuesday’s campaign is just one front in the ongoing battles over collective-bargaining rights and public-worker entitlements in Wisconsin. Other elements include:

GOP State Sen. Van Wanggaard of Racine, Wis., has asked prosecutors to investigate a union campaign that threatened to boycott businesses who fail to actively oppose Walker’s initiatives. Letters circulated by AFSCME Council 24 to local businesses state: “Failure to do so will leave us no choice but [to] do a public boycott of your business. And sorry, neutral means ‘no’ to those who work for the largest employer in the area and are union members.” Jim Haney, outgoing head of the Wisconsin Manufacturers & Commerce organization, told the Journal Sentinel: “It’s kind of like the old protection racket.”

In addition to Kapanke, as many as 15 other senators could face recall elections in Wisconsin. It does not appear that there will be enough support to qualify for a recall challenge against the eight Democrats eligible for recall who fled the state in a bid to thwart Walker’s bid to limit the collective bargaining power of public-employee unions, Russo says. A recent poll by liberal The Daily Kos shows a generic Democrat leading Kapanke by 55 percent to 41 percent.

On Friday, Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi denied the state’s request to stop a hearing on whether a preliminary injunction should be granted to block Walker’s budget reform law. On Thursday, Sumi ruled that the law had not begun to take effect and therefore could be subject to an injunction.

The key question in the lawsuit against Walker’s reforms, which could be headed to the state’s Supreme Court for a final adjudication soon, is whether the sudden passage of the measure violated the state’s open-meetings statute. Rob Marchant, Wisconsin’s chief clerk, testified Friday that it is a common practice in the state for meetings to occur with less than the normal 24-hour notice requirement. Wisconsin’s open-meetings law required advance notice of all public sessions. But legislative rules can prevail over those rules, when the meeting involves committees of the Legislature, sources say.

© Newsmax. All rights reserved.
Newsmax.com

[hawaii 5-0]

I'd say it's more the union people who are upset and not the average Wisconsin voter. Unions are essentially the strong arm of the dem party. If "the people" of Wisconsin were so outraged, then this supreme court justice race would be a landslide for the union backer.



The Loser Judge Prosser was a 12 year veteran of the bench who won the primary in Feb with 55% of the vote.

The Winner Kloppenburg was a Prosecutor who came in far behind in the primary with 25%.


It was like a #14 seed beating a #1 seed.



5-0




Trump/Coulter 2012 Hey! It would happen.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

The Loser Judge Prosser was a 12 year veteran of the bench who won the primary in Feb with 55% of the vote.
The Winner Kloppenburg was a Prosecutor who came in far behind in the primary with 25%.
It was like a #14 seed beating a #1 seed.
see post 306

[hawaii 5-0]

see post 306



Read it and saw nothing new.



Palin endorses long serving Judge Prosser and he still loses. So much for her support.



5-0

[SoonerNate]

As long as the Republicans don't throw their principles out the window they will do just fine. The Tea Party is not going away. The only question is whether they become the voice of the Republican Party or start their own party. Either way, they will be very popular for years to come because theirs is a very populace message.

This is still a center/ right nation. The percentage of union households anymore are about in the teens. I am not worried. Whether Obama gets re-elected or not the left will lose the Senate next year and at worst he will be a lame duck with no power for 4 years other than SC nominations and a few lame bull**** executive orders.

[hawaii 5-0]

I wouldn't bet on it bud.




Actually I'd bet a lot on it.


Hell, even the firefighters and policemen's unions, who Walker exempted in his Bogus Bill, protested with the regulars folks at the Capital. They didn't have to but they did.


Since then, Indiana passed similar legislation curbing the unions but at the last minute cut out the part restricting collective bargaining. Smart move.

In Ohio, the Legislature went one step further and also banned the firemen and policemen from collectively bargaining.
This had really pissed off the firemen and policemen nationwide. Any support (which used to be standard) for the Republicans by the Firemen and Policemen is now gone for the forseeable future.

Ya know, I've really only scratched the surface. BTW I'm not a union member, never have been.


5-0



Trump/Ventura 2012

[StoopTroup]

Because of Gov. Walker's Union Busting Bill people got riled up.

Recall petitions went out on big sides.

Voters want to recall the Rupublicans who acted like a bunch of cows being led to slaughter and passed Gov. Walker's Union Smashing Bill. So far one State Senator, Dan Kapanke (R) is under the gun as voters quickly got enough signatures in half the time to get a recall election against him.

Meanwhile Republicans are going after the Democratic AssemblyMen who skipped town and went to Chicago to avoid voting on the Union Smashing Bill. Petitions are going out against them as well.
However, not all recall efforts are finding success. Kurt Paul of Milwaukee, who is leading an effort to recall Sen. Lena Taylor, D-Milwaukee, said Wednesday he so far has only two signatures - his and one other. His 60-day window to gather signatures runs out April 25.



5-0


Trump/Sheen 2012 Winnahs !!!!

I warned of Walker's push to do what ever he wanted. It's true that many politicians have pushed through legislation in history past. They have been from both parties too. The thing is....having the ability to do things because you can or because you may never ever get an opportunity to do it. Well....it isn't always best to take advantages of every opportunity like that. Doing so might blow up in your face. Folks who saw a way to upset all those folks like they did....many of them made statements that all of those folks were Union people. The funniest thing I have seen in all my years is how so many folks who are in Unions would like to fire every person who runs their Union and since they can't....they would by into another Union's Attempt to give them a chance to begin anew. For example....Northwest Airlines and United Airlines. Their membership was completely unhappy with the hierarchy of their long standing Unions and voted them out for a Fraternal Brotherhood. In not to long their jobs were all outsourced and the facilities they had watched multiple generations of their Families work for was gone in less than a year. In one case the Airline actually went the way of PanAm, Braniff and Eastern Airlines. The other fired their CEO and is currently trying to rebuild their maintenance program.

I have definitely seen folks who should have been fired be assisted in their exit by people who were the pot calling the kettle black and others saved that never hit a lick when someone else made the slightest of errors but were fired because of pissing off someone 15 years before the current incident.

I've seen the lazy saved and the productive spurned.

The thing I always find that they all have in common is that most folks who are Union or non-union....they are usually working to feed a Family or live a lifestyle. many are Republican and vote that way to keep their guns and others are Democrat that would never vote Republican because it's a Family Tradition.

I once saw a Union leader speak to a crowd of Workers who had been there for 1-2 decades about supporting Bill Clinton for POTUS and the crowd turned ugly because of the fear of NRA rhetoric about how Husband's had lost their guns do to Spouses filling restraining orders against them due to an ugly divorce. Once the order was in place they were forced to give up their guns even though they hadn't done anything. They were considered guilty and a threat to society because their Spouse declared it. The NRA had done a great job of really backing the Republican Party on gun control. The funny thing is that the Democrats never did try to take away the guns and these people were willing to give up their jobs that allowed them the living they made to be able to purchase those guns and dump their Wives and Families in favor of a NRA / Republican promise. Talk about your good Christian Values....lol

Walker when faced with the possibility to take a shot at Union Busting even though the Workforce and the Democratic opposition clearly was apposed to him doing it....went ahead and acted on the possibility of putting himself in the history Books even though the voters weren't in favor of him doing so. They wanted him to get the State Government back on track and reduce spending and instead he tried to be a Union Buster and not only upset all the teachers but also put their Capitol on the National news and make their State responsible for a National Anti-Union movement in this Country.

It has been an interesting experiment.

I remember all the fuss about "Right to Work" here in Oklahoma and still I'm not sure what it accomplished in Oklahoma. Unions feared it was done to bust Unions and Pubs said it was to give Workers Rights and bring jobs to Oklahoma. In the end....I don't think it did anything to put an end to Unions in Oklahoma and I definitely don't think it brought us many jobs.

In Wisconsin.....Time will tell I guess.

[hawaii 5-0]

As long as the Republicans don't throw their principles out the window they will do just fine. The Tea Party is not going away. The only question is whether they become the voice of the Republican Party or start their own party. Either way, they will be very popular for years to come because theirs is a very populace message.

This is still a center/ right nation. The percentage of union households anymore are about in the teens. I am not worried. Whether Obama gets re-elected or not the left will lose the Senate next year and at worst he will be a lame duck with no power for 4 years other than SC nominations and a few lame bull**** executive orders.


How's the Teaparty on cutting Medicare/Medicaid? Ya think the older Republicans (my father) will stand for that?


5-0


Beck/Rush 2012.

[hawaii 5-0]

Regardless of how this all shakes out, we're in for some exciting times.

Of this I'm sure.



5-0

[SoonerNate]

Walker was elected 52-46. He had a mandate and used it and the freeloaders are simply throwing a fit. I hope they keep it up. Most Wisconsin residents are not happy with the way they trashed up the Capitol in Madison.

You call them unions I call them deviants. If collective bargaining was so important to government workers then why don't you have them at the federal level?

No, this is simply the end of the run for the freeloaders and they aren't going out quietly. But make no mistake, they ARE going out.

[hawaii 5-0]

Walker was elected 52-46. He had a mandate and used it and the freeloaders are simply throwing a fit. I hope they keep it up. Most Wisconsin residents are not happy with the way they trashed up the Capitol in Madison.




http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/mar/08/mike-huebsch/wisconsin-officials-claim-cleaning-state-capitol-w/



This wild claim earned a Pants On Fire Rating.




5-0




Smokey/Bandit 2012

[SoonerNate]

Yeah well, you saw them, I saw them. Their very presence was tantamount to litter.

[Curly Bill]

IMO unions suck, but I'm not sure I want a government with the power to largely take away those unions power either.

Because when it comes to suckage: unions < government

[hawaii 5-0]

Yeah well, you saw them, I saw them. Their very presence was tantamount to litter.


From the article you refused to read........


"Protesters had, by all accounts, policed themselves, including creating cleanup details and other organizational efforts. They used blue painters’ tape to hang their signs -- at the request of state officials. Some protesters said the state had actually provided the tape to avoid lasting damage."




You against people's right to protest? Are you actually saying the People have no right to assemble??? You some kinda Fascist? What's the deal?



5-0

[dwarthog]

From the article you refused to read........


"Protesters had, by all accounts, policed themselves, including creating cleanup details and other organizational efforts. They used blue painters’ tape to hang their signs -- at the request of state officials. Some protesters said the state had actually provided the tape to avoid lasting damage."




You against people's right to protest? You some kinda Fascist? What's the deal?



5-0

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/03/04/wisc_protesters_cost_taxpayers_$75_million_for_cap itol_clean_up



During testimony Thursday, a representative from the Attorney General's office said a contractor estimated it would cost $500,000 to remove all of the posters and garbage. He says it would cost $6 million to restore the marble inside of the Capitol building and another $1 million to touch up the marble outside of the building.

[hawaii 5-0]

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/03/04/wisc_protesters_cost_taxpayers_$75_million_for_cap itol_clean_up




Ya got anything a bit more non-partisan?


My earlier post debunks your claim.

"While urging a judge to scale back protests, a state Department of Administration official said the state Capitol sustained $7.5 million in damage. State officials could not immediately provide a basis for the number, and later backtracked from it. The new estimate: $347,500, some 20 times less than the original one. And there are indications that even that could be high."



5-0




Trump/Snookie 2012

[SoCaliSooner]

This had really pissed off the firemen and policemen nationwide. Any support (which used to be standard) for the Republicans by the Firemen and Policemen is now gone for the forseeable future.

Ya know, I've really only scratched the surface. BTW I'm not a union member, never have been.


5-0



Trump/Ventura 2012

Really? Our unions and union dues go lock step with the dem party, that doesn't mean the rank and file support the unions position. I know most firefighters/cops out here are largely conservative and mock the union stance.

I recently read how Gov. Christie wants to end the tenure for teachers in New Jersy...especially citing that in the last 10 years only 17 teachers out of over 100,000 were terminated for incompetence because they are protected by the unions and tenure.

[dwarthog]

Ya got anything a bit more non-partisan?


My earlier post debunks your claim.

"While urging a judge to scale back protests, a state Department of Administration official said the state Capitol sustained $7.5 million in damage. State officials could not immediately provide a basis for the number, and later backtracked from it. The new estimate: $347,500, some 20 times less than the original one. And there are indications that even that could be high."



5-0




Trump/Snookie 2012

I don't think I would be throwing the word "partisan" around based on what you post.

Here is one from commie central for you.

http://www.wkow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14255125


At first, the Department of Administration estimated it would cost upwards of $7.5 million dollars to restore the Capitol after protests. In a March 4 memorandum, the department revised its estimated cost to $350,000, if a restoration specialist is not required.

That cost is broken down into four areas: $2,500 for photo documentation, $60,000 for condition assessment, $185,000 for landscape restoration, and $100,000 for interior restoration.

Just like a when a vote count takes place between a dem and pub, and the recounts continue until the dem is ahead, they will keep counting until it hit's zero.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

IMO unions suck, but I'm not sure I want a government with the power to largely take away those unions power either.

Because when it comes to suckage: unions < governmentYou gotta have a govt. If we continue to allow the PUBLIC unions to have their way, America's economy will continue to spiral down, and the democrats/socialists and other negative groups will become even more powerful. We will be 2nd world or 3rd world.

[SoonerNate]

The Loser Judge Prosser was a 12 year veteran of the bench who won the primary in Feb with 55% of the vote.

The Winner Kloppenburg was a Prosecutor who came in far behind in the primary with 25%.


It was like a #14 seed beating a #1 seed.



5-0






Trump/Coulter 2012 Hey! It would happen.

Time for you to eat crow? Looks like an entire town wasn't counted for Prosser and now has a very comfortable lead.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Time for you to eat crow? Looks like an entire town wasn't counted for Prosser and now has a very comfortable lead.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HADemocrats nationwide have reached new levels of outlaw behavior nowadays. There is so much fraud everywhere, it's a sad state of affairs for us. Only gonna get worse.

[soonerscuba]

Democrats nationwide have reached new levels of outlaw behavior nowadays. There is so much fraud everywhere, it's a sad state of affairs for us. Only gonna get worse.How do reconcile your fraud delusions with the last midterm election?

[SoonerNate]

Democrats nationwide have reached new levels of outlaw behavior nowadays. There is so much fraud everywhere, it's a sad state of affairs for us. Only gonna get worse.

This is so hilarious. It's as though they have completely denied what has happened with both the tea party movement and last November's elections. The populace is pissed at the moment and it has nothing to do with collective bargaining. It instead has to do with the mortgaging of our grandchildren and their future.

I said it yesterday and I'll continue to say it. I hope the left continues to expose themselves. This is NOT a LEFT nation. They are nailing their own coffins shut politically. Obama has very little chance of winning Florida in 2012, not sure about the rest of the bell weather states but he is screwed here.

[hawaii 5-0]

No crow for me yet. I just heard the news an hour ago and am not surprised.

Waukesha county is staunchly Republican. As I was following the running totals Tuesday night Waukesha votes were about 5-1 in favor of Prosser.

Now, 2 days later, another sack of votes from Waukesha just happens to show up.


Something smells a little fishy.



5-0




Trump/Judge Smells 2012

[hawaii 5-0]

My post #304 predicted a recount.


I stand by that prediction.



5-0

[SoCaliSooner]

No crow for me yet. I just heard the news an hour ago and am not surprised.

Waukesha county is staunchly Republican. As I was following the running totals Tuesday night Waukesha votes were about 5-1 in favor of Prosser.

Now, 2 days later, another sack of votes from Waukesha just happens to show up.


Something smells a little fishy.
5-0

Trump/Judge Smells 2012

Wasn't Milwaukee the place that had something like 5000 more votes than registered voters for kerry/Edwards in 2004?

[hawaii 5-0]

Wasn't Milwaukee the place that had something like 5000 more votes than registered voters for kerry/Edwards in 2004?


Don't know anything about that.

Feel free to post something tho.


5-0





Trump/ Stimpy 2012

[SoonerNate]

You obviously missed the bigger picture. The Democrats didn't chicken out. They pulled a political maneuver to avoid a quorem which would have led to the Assembly passing Walker's Union Busting Law. They stood up for what is right and were view as heroes by the masses.

Meanwhile the Repubs finally got their act together, illegally split the law separating the union busting from the money section and quickly passed the law anyway. Of course the Court saw through their fast one and prevented the Attorney General from publishing the law.
Walker then tried to sidestep the legal edict of a judge and had someone else publish the law. The judge then put that weak attempt to circumvent the legal process on hold as well. The decision will probably work its way up the the State Supreme Court, currently held 4-3 by Walker asskissers.

But now, one judge who once was the Speaker of the Assembly, has held his judgeship for 12 years and who led his Primary by more than 2 to 1 has now lost his re-election to an unknown Presecutor.
That swings the Supreme Court to the other side 4-3 against Walker.

Of course there will be a recount, so things are still up in the air.

Meanwhile recall petitions are being sign and the Republicans who voted for the Union Bashing Bill will soon be out of jobs. There will be another Bill overturning Walkers Mistake, and next November petitions will go out to dump Walker himself.

......and that's where it stands now. The good folks in Wisconson are happy tonight. Things are turning around.


5-0



Trump/Sheen 2012 Winning is Everything, even to Idiots.

Don't let the truth get in your way tho.

No there won't. It is outside the margin (Wisconsin law) unless she wants to call for a recount on her own and her campaign must finance it themselves.

Can you say T.K.O.????

[hawaii 5-0]

No there won't. It is outside the margin (Wisconsin law) unless she wants to call for a recount on her own and her campaign must finance it themselves.

Can you say T.K.O.????



Of course there will be a recount. Don't be silly.


That same County Cluck in Waukesha has more than once been accused of questionable practices.



5-0



Trump/Arnold 2012

[Mongo]

5-0, your schtick is wearing thin. you are trying to be a mouth piece for the vocal minority in a state you own no stock in. others have posted links that refute your bull**** claims, yet you hold strong like one of the local right wing nuts.

Again, why do you feel public servants, who are paid with tax dollars, in a state in which you do not live, deserve extortionant amount of bennies paid by tax revenues, deserve to keep them when everyone across this nation is tightening their belts?

you are a ****ing whiner. plain and simple. at least admit you are a union homer, it would make your argument much more palatable.

[Mongo]

my middle paragraph, which I have stated several times in this thread in response to 5-0, will go ignored once again. I will put up a free Johnny Mack beej 5-0 wont answer it.......again

[TitoMorelli]

Pro-Kloppenburg forces spent huge sums of money in buying airtime for misleading ads in order to win this election. Far more $$$ than did Prosser. And the Kloppenburg supporters were much more motivated to get out and vote, given the recent events in Madison.

That so many people still came out to support Prosser at the polls suggests that public opinion in the Badger State is less sympathetic with the public union employees than one might have suspected given the countless (and endless) demonstrations over the past month or so. Or that they preferred a judge who at least presented some appearance of impartiality to one who was widely believed to be already in the unions' back pocket.

[TitoMorelli]

I learned of this in November of 2000 when they tried to steal the election from Bush in this county. I went down and protested the chad counting that November Saturday. I remember it well as later that was the day that we barely beat OSU @ home to continue our undefeated season.

National title hopes on the line late in the fourth quarter in Stoolwater, and you were worried about some stupid _____in' election? ;)

[SoonerNate]

5-0, your schtick is wearing thin. you are trying to be a mouth piece for the vocal minority in a state you own no stock in. others have posted links that refute your bull**** claims, yet you hold strong like one of the local right wing nuts.

Again, why do you feel public servants, who are paid with tax dollars, in a state in which you do not live, deserve extortionant amount of bennies paid by tax revenues, deserve to keep them when everyone across this nation is tightening their belts?

you are a ****ing whiner. plain and simple. at least admit you are a union homer, it would make your argument much more palatable.

I would like to see where you have any evidence of said "right wing nuts." You just made a mainstream point yet felt the need to attack so called "right wing nuts."


Please provide evidence of said considered "right winged nuts" and we will debate. Thanks.

I dare ANY leftist here to debate me on the facts.

[Mongo]

I would like to see where you have any evidence of said "right wing nuts"

Please provide and we will debate. Thanks.

I dare ANY leftist here to debate me on the facts.

bark, wrong tree.

I dont know how long you have been here. i dont care. I could sling right winger's names from the past debates here, who act exactly the same as 5-0. that was my point.

[SoonerNate]

bark, wrong tree.

I dont know how long you have been here. i dont care. I could sling right winger's names from the past debates here, who act exactly the same as 5-0. that was my point.

Fair point.

[hawaii 5-0]

5-0, your schtick is wearing thin. you are trying to be a mouth piece for the vocal minority in a state you own no stock in. others have posted links that refute your bull**** claims, yet you hold strong like one of the local right wing nuts.

Again, why do you feel public servants, who are paid with tax dollars, in a state in which you do not live, deserve extortionant amount of bennies paid by tax revenues, deserve to keep them when everyone across this nation is tightening their belts?

you are a ****ing whiner. plain and simple. at least admit you are a union homer, it would make your argument much more palatable.





As I have stated more than once, I have 3 relatives and 3 friends in Wisconsin that are teachers. Yeah, I'm involved. I help one of them get by financially as she's always had trouble with money. I go there once per year and am very familiar with the current political climate.
Anyone else here care to step forward with their own direct personal interest in Wisconsin politics.


I'm not pro union. Never said I was. I've never been a member of any union.

I'm just protesting worker's right to collectively bargain whether public or private. If anyone is getting ripped off they should have their right to strike a deal with their boss. If their boss agrees to the employees demands then the employer should honor the contract they agreed to. They only deserve the benefits agreed to by their contracts. If the boss doesn't like the contract, don't agree to it, plain and simple.

Not everyone is tightening their belt, public or private. Just the middle class and lower class. The upperclass are taking their Bush tax cuts and keeping their money. Except for the donations to their favorite greedy politician. Republican or Democrat, they're all doing it. It's just that it's the Republicans that are demanding the continuation of the tax breaks to the wealthy.



5-0



Trump/Gaga 2012

[TheHumanAlphabet]

You obviously missed the bigger picture. The Democrats didn't chicken out. They pulled a political maneuver to avoid a quorem which would have led to the Assembly passing Walker's Union Busting Law. They stood up for what is right and were view as heroes by the masses.

Meanwhile the Repubs finally got their act together, illegally split the law separating the union busting from the money section and quickly passed the law anyway. Of course the Court saw through their fast one and prevented the Attorney General from publishing the law.
Walker then tried to sidestep the legal edict of a judge and had someone else publish the law. The judge then put that weak attempt to circumvent the legal process on hold as well. The decision will probably work its way up the the State Supreme Court, currently held 4-3 by Walker asskissers.

But now, one judge who once was the Speaker of the Assembly, has held his judgeship for 12 years and who led his Primary by more than 2 to 1 has now lost his re-election to an unknown Presecutor.
That swings the Supreme Court to the other side 4-3 against Walker.

Of course there will be a recount, so things are still up in the air.

Meanwhile recall petitions are being sign and the Republicans who voted for the Union Bashing Bill will soon be out of jobs. There will be another Bill overturning Walkers Mistake, and next November petitions will go out to dump Walker himself.

......and that's where it stands now. The good folks in Wisconson are happy tonight. Things are turning around.


5-0



Trump/Sheen 2012 Winning is Everything, even to Idiots.

Don't let the truth get in your way tho.

The dumbs were chick$hit runners away, abandoned their job. They should be impeached.

Yeah on the Wisky Supreme court and good ole Waukesha...

[TheHumanAlphabet]

The Winner Judge Prosser was a 12 year veteran of the bench who won the primary in Feb with 55% of the vote.

The Loser Kloppenburg was a Prosecutor who came in far behind in the primary with 25%.

5-0




Trump/Coulter 2012 Hey! It would happen.

FIFY

[hawaii 5-0]

Yeah well, you saw them, I saw them. Their very presence was tantamount to litter.





OK, Nate. Your turn.


Please explain your problem with a group's Constitutional right to assemble.

Feel free to explain your detest for the 1st Amendment.





5-0




Trump/Jeter 2012

[hawaii 5-0]

FIFY




I thought it was a Chicago thing that went "vote early and vote often."





5-0




Trump/Bonds 2012

[Mongo]

.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Mmmm... Brookfield. They have a great Original Pancake House there and a Caribou Coffee.

5 - 0 if you knew anything about this area, you would not say the things you are saying about the Waukesha county numbers. Brookfield is a conservative as you can just about get in Wisky.

The numbers jibe, there is no issue... Prosser wins!

[TitoMorelli]

Mmmm... Brookfield. They have a great Original Pancake House there and a Caribou Coffee.

5 - 0 if you knew anything about this area, you would not say the things you are saying about the Waukesha county numbers. Brookfield is a conservative as you can just about get in Wisky.

The numbers jibe, there is no issue... Prosser wins!

Original Pancake House? Are those the places with the plate-covering apple pancake?

[hawaii 5-0]

Mmmm... Brookfield. They have a great Original Pancake House there and a Caribou Coffee.

5 - 0 if you knew anything about this area, you would not say the things you are saying about the Waukesha county numbers. Brookfield is a conservative as you can just about get in Wisky.

The numbers jibe, there is no issue... Prosser wins!



My mother-in-law was from Waukesha. I'm aware of the county's conservatism. I'm concerned with the motives and ineptitude of the County Clerk Kathy Nickolaus. I'll reserve final judgement until the investigation is over.



5-0





Trump/Ventura 2012

[hawaii 5-0]

.




Sorry Mongo but I refuse to get into a pissing contest with another Sooner. This fish ain't biting. I'll just put in my 2cents when I feel like it.




As far as tax dollars for union workers, I don't really give a rip who is paying. If any worker, public or private is getting an unfair wage or benefit from their employer they should be able to bargain for improvements, whether individually or collectively.


Martin Luther King was shot in Memphis while supporting public sanitation workers' efforts to bargain. Just observing........



5-0




Trump/Spongebob 2012

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Original Pancake House? Are those the places with the plate-covering apple pancake?

Yes!

[TheHumanAlphabet]

... I'm concerned with the motives and ineptitude of the County Clerk Kathy Nickolaus. I'll reserve final judgement until the investigation is over.
5-0
Trump/Ventura 2012

Well at least the story offered so far makes more sense than the Nixon tape erasures and whether a chad is hanging or not. Even the dem election board member said it was good and that she wouldn't be saying that if it weren't true.

I can understand skeptism, but this isn't Chicago and I think there are plenty of witnesses here for a "job" to have been done.

[hawaii 5-0]

Just a tidbit about the fairness of Waukesha County Clerk Kathy Nickolaus.


"Nickolaus has come under scrutiny before.

Last year, county officials raised objections to her practice of storing election data off the county’s computer network, instead keeping it on computers in her office, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported.

The practice prevented the county’s information technology specialists from verifying that the system was secure from failing, the county’s director of administration said at the time. Auditors later recommended that Nickolaus improve security and backup procedures.

In 2001, Nickolaus was granted immunity to testify about her role as a computer analyst for the Assembly Republican Caucus, then under investigation — along with the Senate Republican Caucus and the Democratic caucuses for both houses — for using state resources to secretly run campaigns.

Nickolaus, a seven-year employee of the ARC, headed up an effort to develop a computer program that averaged the performance of Republicans in statewide races by ward."



5-0



Trump/Tiger 2012

[SoonerNate]

Just a tidbit about the fairness of Waukesha County Clerk Kathy Nickolaus.


"Nickolaus has come under scrutiny before.

Last year, county officials raised objections to her practice of storing election data off the county’s computer network, instead keeping it on computers in her office, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported.

The practice prevented the county’s information technology specialists from verifying that the system was secure from failing, the county’s director of administration said at the time. Auditors later recommended that Nickolaus improve security and backup procedures.

In 2001, Nickolaus was granted immunity to testify about her role as a computer analyst for the Assembly Republican Caucus, then under investigation — along with the Senate Republican Caucus and the Democratic caucuses for both houses — for using state resources to secretly run campaigns.

Nickolaus, a seven-year employee of the ARC, headed up an effort to develop a computer program that averaged the performance of Republicans in statewide races by ward."



5-0



Trump/Tiger 2012

So are we now presenting prophit's of certain districts?

That was so easy. Am I allowed to include the African-American thought?

[SoonerKnight]

What a stupid statement. We can't hire firefighters and/or police unless they are in a union? :D You really need to get a grip.

Talking about pay raises and furloughs! the people that become police and fire fighters get there through tough competition usually starting out with a few hundred people and it gets down to 20 or less when the academy starts. These people are usually educated and have skills that can net them other jobs. So take away what little benefits they get to save your worthless hide and they would probably leave. Afterall they can take care of themselves!

[hawaii 5-0]

I guess if Gov. Walker was serious about busting public service unions he woulda busted all of them, including the firemen and policemen, like Ohio did.


5-0



Trump/Zippy 2012

[hawaii 5-0]

Update on the recent Wisky Supreme Court Judge election.....


http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_be206ecd-4b8d-571a-9fa2-cb4e5bf8e668.html

Yeah a recount is coming. This time all the votes will be counted.


5-0


Trump/Bozo 2012

[hawaii 5-0]

“Oh my gosh, my cat just coughed up 14,000 ballots and almost all of them were marked for JoAnne Kloppenburg.” ...................sign in Wisky




5-0



Trump/Obama 2012 (is it legal to run against yourself?)

[hawaii 5-0]

Here's why things are fishy about the Wisky Supreme Court Election''.


http://www.squattable.com/news/041011/top-ten-reasons-wisconsin-election-fubar


...and in this one Prosser admitted he's a crook. He escaped this one due to the statute of limitations.


http://www.squattable.com/news/040911/strange-twist-wisconsin-battle-prosser-admitted-leading-illegal-activities-nickolaus-200

Just smelling that fish.


5-0



Trump/Mubarak 2012

[Half a Hundred]

Judicial elections are ridiculous. The whole point of a judge is that he or she is answerable to the law, and nothing else.

[hawaii 5-0]

Judicial elections are ridiculous. The whole point of a judge is that he or she is answerable to the law, and nothing else.



I really wish it were so but in Wisconsin the judges are anything but impartial.

Judge Prosser is a rubber stamp for Gov. Walker.

His election tips the 4-3 swing of power in the Wisky Supreme Court.


5-0



Trump/Foghorn 2012

[SoCaliSooner]

I really wish it were so but in Wisconsin the judges are anything but impartial.

Judge Prosser is a rubber stamp for Gov. Walker.

His election tips the 4-3 swing of power in the Wisky Supreme Court.


5-0



Trump/Foghorn 2012
How is that any different from the other judge being a rubber stamp for the unions? How is that any different from Clinton appointed judges overturning conservative laws that are passed?

It is only unfair and corrupt when it isn't your guy making the decisions.

[okie52]

Talking about pay raises and furloughs! the people that become police and fire fighters get there through tough competition usually starting out with a few hundred people and it gets down to 20 or less when the academy starts. These people are usually educated and have skills that can net them other jobs. So take away what little benefits they get to save your worthless hide and they would probably leave. Afterall they can take care of themselves!

Let the public sector compete with the private. On average, the public sector is more highly compensated, have much greater job security and
better pensions. Your assumption that a mass exodus would occur should collective bargaining (or whatever your rant is) be eliminated is ludicrous.

http://reason.org/news/show/public-sector-private-sector-salary

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Let the public sector compete with the private. On average, the public sector is more highly compensated, have much greater job security and
better pensions. Your assumption that a mass exodus would occur should collective bargaining (or whatever your rant is) be eliminated is ludicrous.

http://reason.org/news/show/public-sector-private-sector-salary

Your assumption that there should be private sector competition for critical life safety sensitive functions is ludicrous. Especially when those functions are afforded the power by the state to affect the rights of the citizenry. Whether that be through the common good or the preservation and protection of life and property, those functions should be, as it is with the armed services, solely a governmental function as they are a basic, defined service of government.

There's just some things the private sector has no business getting into.

[okie52]

Your assumption that there should be private sector competition for critical life safety sensitive functions is ludicrous. Especially when those functions are afforded the power by the state to affect the rights of the citizenry. Whether that be through the common good or the preservation and protection of life and property, those functions should be, as it is with the armed services, solely a governmental function as they are a basic, defined service of government.

There's just some things the private sector has no business getting into.

That wasn't the point at all. The ludicrous statement by another poster was that if we don't have collective bargaining for firemen, policemen, et al, they would leave and go to the private sector and take different jobs. If that is the case I say so be it and we will still hire policemen, firemen, etc...

[Tulsa_Fireman]

You're right. They won't leave because the driving social factors in joining public service by and large aren't because there's thousands of young men and women chomping at the bit to be a part of a collective bargaining unit.

The benefit packages however, as a result of collective bargaining, are part of the draw of public service (speaking from my limited view, of course). Undeniably so. Because in this line of work, the inherent dangers are known and because of such, therein lies an offset. As mentioned in previous posts, over 62% of non-deferred pension disbursements are for members either dead or disabled.

Without collective bargaining for this particular aspect of the public service you will still hire firefighters. Will you still get the level of service you currently receive from your firefighters? No. Not in some crazed work stoppage or heinous abandonment of duty, but in the effort and risk taken given certain scenarios where now, through collective bargaining, benefits are in place to ensure members have health and wellness programs, are treated for the number of injuries received, are seen to when having to part from one's career due to permanent disability.

Tulsa averages roughly one and a half times the number of injuries per year as she has firefighters. I myself have been injured a number of times in the course of my duties. Do I realize it is a part of my service? Damn straight. Do I accept the risks and continue to throw down when it's time to throw down? Damn straight. Do I do it because of the benefits? No, I do it to serve my citizens. However, to face the dangerous prospect that my effort for my citizens would be met with a complete disregard from the citizens I served as firefighters break their bodies and minds in their day to day effort in that very service would definitely shift my priorities. And definitely shift the priorities for those looking to walk the path I've chosen as well.

So no, a loss of collective bargaining would not directly force droves to abandon or neglect the public service. But it's not 1948 anymore, either. It would indirectly hammer the public service as those who enter know the risks and take them anyway, knowing that when they're on their 2nd knee surgery, their back is shot to hell, their deaf ears are scorched and pre-cancerous, or their Hep C screen comes up positive, their service and sacrifice will be rewarded with something as simple as a 50% pension and having to purchase healthcare entirely on your own. But I forgot, collective bargaining is screwing us all.

[pphilfran]

Do you have incident rates for firefighters...it would be interesting to compare to a non union organization..farmers for example...

[jk the sooner fan]

has this been resolved yet?

[pphilfran]

has this been resolved yet?

It will probably never be totally resolved....:D

[okie52]

You're right. They won't leave because the driving social factors in joining public service by and large aren't because there's thousands of young men and women chomping at the bit to be a part of a collective bargaining unit.

The benefit packages however, as a result of collective bargaining, are part of the draw of public service (speaking from my limited view, of course). Undeniably so. Because in this line of work, the inherent dangers are known and because of such, therein lies an offset. As mentioned in previous posts, over 62% of non-deferred pension disbursements are for members either dead or disabled.

Without collective bargaining for this particular aspect of the public service you will still hire firefighters. Will you still get the level of service you currently receive from your firefighters? No. Not in some crazed work stoppage or heinous abandonment of duty, but in the effort and risk taken given certain scenarios where now, through collective bargaining, benefits are in place to ensure members have health and wellness programs, are treated for the number of injuries received, are seen to when having to part from one's career due to permanent disability.

Tulsa averages roughly one and a half times the number of injuries per year as she has firefighters. I myself have been injured a number of times in the course of my duties. Do I realize it is a part of my service? Damn straight. Do I accept the risks and continue to throw down when it's time to throw down? Damn straight. Do I do it because of the benefits? No, I do it to serve my citizens. However, to face the dangerous prospect that my effort for my citizens would be met with a complete disregard from the citizens I served as firefighters break their bodies and minds in their day to day effort in that very service would definitely shift my priorities. And definitely shift the priorities for those looking to walk the path I've chosen as well.

So no, a loss of collective bargaining would not directly force droves to abandon or neglect the public service. But it's not 1948 anymore, either. It would indirectly hammer the public service as those who enter know the risks and take them anyway, knowing that when they're on their 2nd knee surgery, their back is shot to hell, their deaf ears are scorched and pre-cancerous, or their Hep C screen comes up positive, their service and sacrifice will be rewarded with something as simple as a 50% pension and having to purchase healthcare entirely on your own. But I forgot, collective bargaining is screwing us all.

You've made some good points for collective bargaining in past posts. My contention is that collective bargaining is not a right for public employees (the feds don't have it) yet many of the public employees in WI demonstrated they thought it was. I do think it is a right for private sector employees, even if it is little utilized today for reasons that are different than those that govern the public sector.

The public sector does have representation from elected officials. And competition for public sector employees comes from other states and municipalities..not so much from the private sector. So if a fire department in Tulsa isn't living up to the standards required to meet the needs of its firemen there are many other municipalities that a fireman could look to improve his position. And, Tulsa, after suffering a loss of qualified, experienced, Firemen will be forced to raise its standards. But in the public sector collective bargaining is a privilege, not a right.

[OutlandTrophy]

has anyone mentioned that firefighters are crazy?

Who runs into a burning building? Not me, my friends, not me.

[MamaMia]

Time for you to eat crow? Looks like an entire town wasn't counted for Prosser and now has a very comfortable lead.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

Now if they could just rid of that pesky conservative Governor.

[SoCaliSooner]

has anyone mentioned that firefighters are crazy?

Who runs into a burning building? Not me, my friends, not me.

They do it for the chicks...and the huge pension...

[Serenity Now]

There's a difference between sectors of public employees. Firefighters and police are different from teachers and these are different from the rest of the workers.

I think fire, police and EMS need the protection. Teachers probably do also. I do think that it would help if the unions allowed their own to be disciplined easeir.

[Midtowner]

Everything else aside, I find it very troubling that the Supreme Court election is basically a referendum on how the public thinks these Justices will vote on something likely to come before them. That's really not how Judges should be chosen and it undermines the credibility and independence of the Judicial Branch.

We in Oklahoma were wise to adopt a Missouri Plan, which gives a non-partisan Judicial Nomination Commission the ability to vet candidates and submit three names to the Governor for her [it's funny to be using that pronoun in reference to that job] selection.

In Oklahoma, we used to have a non-independent judiciary, just like they have in Wisconsin. We got rid of that after we had a Supreme Court Justice and several of his fellows get caught red handed accepting bribes. We now have the public financing of judicial campaigns being spoken of as high-up as the SCOTUS, where a fairly recent opinion remanded a West Virginia case dealing with a coal mining operation where a Judge's campaign had accepted huge sums of money from said coal mining operation, and had refused to recuse himself.

To avoid having justice for sale (we already have legislation for sale), and the eventual auctioning off of our Constitutional rights, an independent judiciary is extremely important.

And yes, the public is by and large too partisan and too dumb to be left to choose who ought to interpret the law.

[okie52]

There's a difference between sectors of public employees. Firefighters and police are different from teachers and these are different from the rest of the workers.

I think fire, police and EMS need the protection. Teachers probably do also. I do think that it would help if the unions allowed their own to be disciplined easeir.

Different? Well the military is different, too, do they need collective bargaining?

[sappstuf]

Different? Well the military is different, too, do they need collective bargaining?

Hell no, we won't go!!

[okie52]

Hell no, we won't go!!

It has to be the correct war or conflict.

I'm not sure how Libya would fare right now on a vote by the military.

Iraq and Afghanistan would be goners.

An attack on Cancun would win, though.

[sappstuf]

It has to be the correct war or conflict.

I'm not sure how Libya would fare right now on a vote by the military.

Iraq and Afghanistan would be goners.

An attack on Cancun would win, though.

I promise you, Amsterdam would never be invaded... Except, well... By us.

[badger]

I really wish it were so but in Wisconsin the judges are anything but impartial.

Judge Prosser is a rubber stamp for Gov. Walker.


Prosser? I remember him unsuccessfully running to replace longtime Congressman Toby Roth, only to lose to a local TV anchorman... and then get appointed (not elected) the state Supreme Court.

He has probably had to run for re-election since then, so he's probably not an appointee anymore.

He might feel he owes the Republican Party in Wisconsin due to the appointment and all.

[okie52]

I promise you, Amsterdam would never be invaded... Except, well... By us.

Indeed. ;)

[diverdog]

You're right. They won't leave because the driving social factors in joining public service by and large aren't because there's thousands of young men and women chomping at the bit to be a part of a collective bargaining unit.

The benefit packages however, as a result of collective bargaining, are part of the draw of public service (speaking from my limited view, of course). Undeniably so. Because in this line of work, the inherent dangers are known and because of such, therein lies an offset. As mentioned in previous posts, over 62% of non-deferred pension disbursements are for members either dead or disabled.

Without collective bargaining for this particular aspect of the public service you will still hire firefighters. Will you still get the level of service you currently receive from your firefighters? No. Not in some crazed work stoppage or heinous abandonment of duty, but in the effort and risk taken given certain scenarios where now, through collective bargaining, benefits are in place to ensure members have health and wellness programs, are treated for the number of injuries received, are seen to when having to part from one's career due to permanent disability.

Tulsa averages roughly one and a half times the number of injuries per year as she has firefighters. I myself have been injured a number of times in the course of my duties. Do I realize it is a part of my service? Damn straight. Do I accept the risks and continue to throw down when it's time to throw down? Damn straight. Do I do it because of the benefits? No, I do it to serve my citizens. However, to face the dangerous prospect that my effort for my citizens would be met with a complete disregard from the citizens I served as firefighters break their bodies and minds in their day to day effort in that very service would definitely shift my priorities. And definitely shift the priorities for those looking to walk the path I've chosen as well.

So no, a loss of collective bargaining would not directly force droves to abandon or neglect the public service. But it's not 1948 anymore, either. It would indirectly hammer the public service as those who enter know the risks and take them anyway, knowing that when they're on their 2nd knee surgery, their back is shot to hell, their deaf ears are scorched and pre-cancerous, or their Hep C screen comes up positive, their service and sacrifice will be rewarded with something as simple as a 50% pension and having to purchase healthcare entirely on your own. But I forgot, collective bargaining is screwing us all.

Tulsa:

Correct me if I am wrong but collective bargaining has also helped policeman get issued bullet proof vest, fireman better safety equipment, the right number of firefighters per emergency vehicle, better work conditions....etc. Hasn't collective bargaining also stopped what use to be called the "blue flu" or "sickouts"?

[SoCaliSooner]

Tulsa:

Correct me if I am wrong but collective bargaining has also helped policeman get issued bullet proof vest, fireman better safety equipment, the right number of firefighters per emergency vehicle, better work conditions....etc. Hasn't collective bargaining also stopped what use to be called the "blue flu" or "sickouts"?
I don't think that without collective bargaining we wouldn't have the best technologies and vehicles. Municipalities/cities/counties and states don't like paying permanent disability, spousal LODD pensions, when it would cost less to keep firefighters and cops healthy and alive.

Our union for the most part keeps the unqualified and under performing firefighters employed. It is extremely difficult to get hired on out here and even harder to get fired.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I don't think that without collective bargaining we wouldn't have the best technologies and vehicles. Municipalities/cities/counties and states don't like paying permanent disability, spousal LODD pensions, when it would cost less to keep firefighters and cops healthy and alive.

Not to mention the TRUE driving force behind public safety expenditure, the citizens themselves. Kill a fireman and see what your community will do. Ask Oklahoma City after they killed 3 in 1989. They promptly voted in a 3/4 cent sales tax dedicated strictly for OCFD. The sad thing is that it's the old understanding that someone has to die or someone rich has to have their sh*t burn up before action gets taken.

That CAN'T be the way we do things. However, without collective bargaining, that IS the way things are done, the way things will be done. There are too many examples throughout history that prove the case for public safety employees, right here in Oklahoma.

[SoonerKnight]

You've made some good points for collective bargaining in past posts. My contention is that collective bargaining is not a right for public employees (the feds don't have it) yet many of the public employees in WI demonstrated they thought it was. I do think it is a right for private sector employees, even if it is little utilized today for reasons that are different than those that govern the public sector.

The public sector does have representation from elected officials. And competition for public sector employees comes from other states and municipalities..not so much from the private sector. So if a fire department in Tulsa isn't living up to the standards required to meet the needs of its firemen there are many other municipalities that a fireman could look to improve his position. And, Tulsa, after suffering a loss of qualified, experienced, Firemen will be forced to raise its standards. But in the public sector collective bargaining is a privilege, not a right.

Apparently you have never been a public employee and have no clue! :rolleyes:

[pphilfran]

Collective bargaining is not value added...

Collective bargaining will not make a crappy company a great company...

[SoonerKnight]

Let the public sector compete with the private. On average, the public sector is more highly compensated, have much greater job security and
better pensions. Your assumption that a mass exodus would occur should collective bargaining (or whatever your rant is) be eliminated is ludicrous.

http://reason.org/news/show/public-sector-private-sector-salary

Apparently you have trouble reading! First, Like Tulsa said the people in public service such as firefighters and police would change their priorities. Okie just because I disagree with you does not mean you get to **** on my opinion! You are no expert in this **** so stop trying to portray everything I write as a rant!

My suggestion is that taking the right of those particular employees to bargain and you will have issues. You will keep some around and lose others. Bargaining keeps the city from taking benefits and pay away from those who sacrifice their lives and risk their lives so that YOU can count on that safety and security. I know I am in LE! I deal with people that most people are afraid of! Most people can not nor would they do my job! It is dangerous and for what I do I am not paid that well! Bargaining allows me and my fellow officers to ensure that we will be covered when we retire and as Tulsa pointed out through the course of our carreer we will be injured and we will need those benefits! Also, the stress of the job is also another reason for benefits such as sick time, vacation leave!

Our city actually has tried to limit our sick time!! So officers that get cancer or have children that get sick would have less time to take care of those issues! That's with bargaining and would be less benefits than regular city employees! Our union bargains for pay increases, holiday and the discipline system that the city has! LE actually has less rights than a regular employee has when they get in trouble! LE also has a huge responsibillity to the public!

The original point that you decided to **** all over was that even Gov. Walker did not mess with Police or Fire! That is a fact jack!! So why don't you try some reading comprehension classes!! You apparently need some help with that! You can't have Police and Fire compete with private sector as Tulsa pointed out some services are basic functions of government!! Stop smoking the grass man or whatever it is!!

[Sooner5030]

collective bargaining employee:

"i'm not happy with my pay....so I am going on strike tomorrow"

employer:

"fine....you're fired"

collective bargaining employee:

"you cant fire me.......you see my crooked leaders bribed legislatures so that I receive special protection. You have to work a deal with me...na...na.na.na.na"

employer:

"time to look at china or mexico"

board of directors:

"approved"

[okie52]

Apparently you have never been a public employee and have no clue! :rolleyes:

Another illuminating response.

So collective bargaining is a right for public employees.

Shouldn't the military cash in on this apparent win/win situation for public employees and their employers?

[pphilfran]

Our city actually has tried to limit our sick time!!

Please expand on this...

Do you have unlimited sick pay?

[SoonerKnight]

Please expand on this...

Do you have unlimited sick pay?

No, we were able to bank 500 hours at one time which is what the city allows civillians! Now, we bank 200 hours of sick time and the city tried to reduce this even more! Already, we have officer's that can not get enough time off to take care of their health! There is an officer that is also my neighbor that has cancer. He has to get his treatment's on his days off and then show up to work sick because his sick time was exhausted from the two surgeries he had to have!

[pphilfran]

No, we were able to bank 500 hours at one time which is what the city allows civillians! Now, we bank 200 hours of sick time and the city tried to reduce this even more! Already, we have officer's that can not get enough time off to take care of their health! There is an officer that is also my neighbor that has cancer. He has to get his treatment's on his days off and then show up to work sick because his sick time was exhausted from the two surgeries he had to have!

What do you mean by bank?

You get x amount of hours each year...what is x...

You can carry over y amount each year...what is y...

You can have a max of z...what is z....

[SoonerKnight]

Another illuminating response.

So collective bargaining is a right for public employees.

Shouldn't the military cash in on this apparent win/win situation for public employees and their employers?

The military is not the subject here! And I did not say it was a right! Perhaps your unaware that the police are contract employees and so we bargain for the contract! The regular employees are not contract employees and thus do not bargain in the city I live in!

So again you are no expert in this! You think that public employees are so highly compensated then why don't you look at the packages for a city job and private sector job and you would soon realize that this idea is total BS!

[okie52]

Apparently you have trouble reading! First, Like Tulsa said the people in public service such as firefighters and police would change their priorities. Okie just because I disagree with you does not mean you get to **** on my opinion! You are no expert in this **** so stop trying to portray everything I write as a rant!

My suggestion is that taking the right of those particular employees to bargain and you will have issues. You will keep some around and lose others. Bargaining keeps the city from taking benefits and pay away from those who sacrifice their lives and risk their lives so that YOU can count on that safety and security. I know I am in LE! I deal with people that most people are afraid of! Most people can not nor would they do my job! It is dangerous and for what I do I am not paid that well! Bargaining allows me and my fellow officers to ensure that we will be covered when we retire and as Tulsa pointed out through the course of our carreer we will be injured and we will need those benefits! Also, the stress of the job is also another reason for benefits such as sick time, vacation leave!

Our city actually has tried to limit our sick time!! So officers that get cancer or have children that get sick would have less time to take care of those issues! That's with bargaining and would be less benefits than regular city employees! Our union bargains for pay increases, holiday and the discipline system that the city has! LE actually has less rights than a regular employee has when they get in trouble! LE also has a huge responsibillity to the public!

The original point that you decided to **** all over was that even Gov. Walker did not mess with Police or Fire! That is a fact jack!! So why don't you try some reading comprehension classes!! You apparently need some help with that! You can't have Police and Fire compete with private sector as Tulsa pointed out some services are basic functions of government!! Stop smoking the grass man or whatever it is!!

Easy now officer. I do disagree with your opinion but, apparently, more how you stated it than what you meant to say (my reading comprehension notwithstanding).

As I stated to Tulsa he had made some good points for collective bargaining. However, it is not a right but a privilege IMO in the public sector. The public employees in WI felt otherwise as their demonstrations would suggest.

I have not stated that police and firefighters should be privatized as you indicate, but that these firemen and officers would leave their jobs for better jobs in other states and/or municipalities should their conditions warrant such a move. But I also don't think that police and firefighters collective bargaining privileges should be sacrosanct when the discussion of budgets and/or contract terms are discussed.

[SoonerKnight]

What do you mean by bank?

You get x amount of hours each year...what is x...

You can carry over y amount each year...what is y...

You can have a max of z...what is z....

200 max that is it! If you have 200 hours then you can not carry it over! We get 8 hours of sick time a month 96 a year a max of 200 and you have to use it to get any more!

[pphilfran]

SK...settle down...I don't want an upset patrolman going out on the beat....

jk...

[okie52]

The military is not the subject here! And I did not say it was a right! Perhaps your unaware that the police are contract employees and so we bargain for the contract! The regular employees are not contract employees and thus do not bargain in the city I live in!

So again you are no expert in this! You think that public employees are so highly compensated then why don't you look at the packages for a city job and private sector job and you would soon realize that this idea is total BS!

BTW-you are correct. I am not an expert on this or many other topics in this forum.

I have been an employer and an employee...and I have stayed at a Holiday Inn.

[pphilfran]

200 max that is it! If you have 200 hours then you can not carry it over! We get 8 hours of sick time a month 96 a year a max of 200 and you have to use it to get any more!

Thank you...

12 days a year...in an industrial setting 12 days a year for a few years would get ya fired....once you went over 3 instances AND 2% a serious of disciplinary action would take place...

Little or no carryover in most industry...

For those with long term health issues isn't there a disability package they fall back on?

Also, if the injury is work related those missed days should not count against the allotted sick days....

[SoonerKnight]

Thank you...

12 days a year...in an industrial setting 12 days a year for a few years would get ya fired....once you went over 3 instances AND 2% a serious of disciplinary action would take place...

Little or no carryover in most industry...

For those with long term health issues isn't there a disability package they fall back on?

Also, if the injury is work related those missed days should not count against the allotted sick days....

The same here we get in trouble if we use more than 8 days a year unless it is FMLA! No, there is not a dissability package unless you are disabled on the job. You see sick leave is for personal sick time! We had an officer die on us because he bled to death from lung cancer! He hemerraged at work and died because of lack of sick time.

[SoonerKnight]

BTW-you are correct. I am not an expert on this or many other topics in this forum.

I have been an employer and an employee...and I have stayed at a Holiday Inn.

Funny! I am no expert but I do have the experience of being both private sector employee and public employee!

Looking for jobs out there the private sector pays more and has better benefits than the current job I have now or in the past!

Want to compare military to private sector? Blackwater pay and benefits to U.S. Military! Blackwater was raping us for years! Their pay was way up there! Overall the military is a completly different animal. When you join you become U.S. property! You agree to all that shat before you go in and you've accepted it!

[okie52]

Funny! I am no expert but I do have the experience of being both private sector employee and public employee!

Looking for jobs out there the private sector pays more and has better benefits than the current job I have now or in the past!

Want to compare military to private sector? Blackwater pay and benefits to U.S. Military! Blackwater was raping us for years! Their pay was way up there! Overall the military is a completly different animal. When you join you become U.S. property! You agree to all that shat before you go in and you've accepted it!

Job security is quite a bit better in the public sector. In fact, it was the only sector that showed any growth in the last few years. There are tradeoffs. But unions have been on the decline in the US...not because they kill a business but because they can't offer wages that will compete with countries that offer $2 a day labor. The public sector doesn't really face those challenges.

I didn't begrudge Blackwater employees what they made...many were vets cashing in on their experience and they were in a high risk situation. Were they actually employees or contract workers? I certainly didn't feel any were in a long term arrangement for their services.

Yep, the military is a sell your soul to the government. Don't know any other way it would work. And, its voluntary.

[tcrb]

200 max that is it! If you have 200 hours then you can not carry it over! We get 8 hours of sick time a month 96 a year a max of 200 and you have to use it to get any more!

Sounds like you think you're getting a raw deal. My former job was with a major airline and it was a union job. We had 12 sick days each year....could bank 100 hours. Discipline occurred if you used more than 3 days in 6 month period.

That was still better than my current job. I get 40 hours of sick time/year. I can use it anytime I want, even if I'm not sick. But if I dont use it before Dec 31st, I lose it. No banking of hours. But I'm not bitchin'...it is what it is as they say, and better than nothing at all.

I purchased my own long-term disability policy to cover me if I ever get a long term illness. It's the type of policy that's available to anyone from an independent agent...even public employees.

[okie52]

Sounds like you think you're getting a raw deal. My former job was with a major airline and it was a union job. We had 12 sick days each year....could bank 100 hours. Discipline occurred if you used more than 3 days in 6 month period.

That was still better than my current job. I get 40 hours of sick time/year. I can use it anytime I want, even if I'm not sick. But if I dont use it before Dec 31st, I lose it. No banking of hours. But I'm not bitchin'...it is what it is as they say, and better than nothing at all.

I purchased my own long-term disability policy to cover me if I ever get a long term illness. It's the type of policy that's available to anyone from an independent agent...even public employees.

You can get a long term disability from just about any insurance agent.

[SoonerKnight]

Sounds like you think you're getting a raw deal. My former job was with a major airline and it was a union job. We had 12 sick days each year....could bank 100 hours. Discipline occurred if you used more than 3 days in 6 month period.

That was still better than my current job. I get 40 hours of sick time/year. I can use it anytime I want, even if I'm not sick. But if I dont use it before Dec 31st, I lose it. No banking of hours. But I'm not bitchin'...it is what it is as they say, and better than nothing at all.

I purchased my own long-term disability policy to cover me if I ever get a long term illness. It's the type of policy that's available to anyone from an independent agent...even public employees.

Yes, but to use that longterm or short term disabillity can DQ an officer from working for the department therefore not a good thing for LE!!

[okie52]

Soonerknight-you are a law enforcement officer. Are you in OK?

[tcrb]

Yes, but to use that longterm or short term disabillity can DQ an officer from working for the department therefore not a good thing for LE!!


That's exactly what LTD is for....situations where your illness or disability precludes you from performing your duties. In that case you receive the LTD for life.

[SoCaliSooner]

Yes, but to use that longterm or short term disabillity can DQ an officer from working for the department therefore not a good thing for LE!!

So you are saying a disabled vet couldn't be a police officer? That's what I thought. I've heard of a few guys claiming to be cops who were also disabled veterans yet no cop or firefighter I know had ever heard of that being possible...

[okie52]

So you are saying a disabled vet couldn't be a police officer? That's what I thought. I've heard of a few guys claiming to be cops who were also disabled veterans yet no cop or firefighter I know had ever heard of that being possible...

Socali. Admit it. You smoke pot and like it.

[SoCaliSooner]

Socali. Admit it. You smoke pot and like it.

Nope. Never tried any of that stuff and didn't even have a drink til I was 21.

[okie52]

Nope. Never tried any of that stuff and didn't even have a drink til I was 21.

Never even tried it? He11, we have excellent theraputic cannibus in OK. You should move back.

[SoonerKnight]

Soonerknight-you are a law enforcement officer. Are you in OK?

No, not OKlahoma. yes I am in LE.

[SoonerNate]

No, not OKlahoma. yes I am in LE.

Since you are a member of law enforcement I must ask this. Why do some many in law enforcement seem to have an inferiority complex?

[SoCaliSooner]

Never even tried it? He11, we have excellent theraputic cannibus in OK. You should move back.

My grandmother and her kids moved out to California in 1958. I'd move to Oklahoma if you had places to surf and lakes/rivers that aren't mudholes.

[SoonerNate]

I'd move to Cali if you didn't have earthquakes and mudslides

[SoonerKnight]

So you are saying a disabled vet couldn't be a police officer? That's what I thought. I've heard of a few guys claiming to be cops who were also disabled veterans yet no cop or firefighter I know had ever heard of that being possible...

What? At least on my department if you go on dissabillity through the dissability insurance depending on what it is and how long it takes to get better you can be DQ for the job. Has nothing to do with disabled vets? Most officers that get sick have to be back to work when their sick time runs out. Longterm dissabillity is for when you can no longer work for the department. Get shot not physically able to do the job any longer.

If a disabled vet can pass the physical then they can get hired. That may be hard to do since you need to meet pretty high physical requirements to get on.

That's why when they took our sick leave down to what they did they really put a hurting on those who get sick. You go on FMLA and you can use up your leave pretty quick. If you get hurt on the job there is a number of weeks I can't remember but I believe it is only a couple of months before you get DQ even with workmans comp.

[SoCaliSooner]

I'd move to Cali if you didn't have earthquakes and mudslides

You guys have tornados many times a year. Our last noticeable quake was 17 years ago and 40 years ago. You guys have even been getting quakes and nasty weather every year. You can have it and I'll keep surfing in Huntington Beach and Malibu and we'll both be happy.

[SoonerKnight]

Why do some many in law enforcement seem to have an inferiority complex?

Please explain what your talking about! Inferiority complex? No, we think the general public is mostly made up of dumb mother ****ers!

[okie52]

My grandmother and her kids moved out to California in 1958. I'd move to Oklahoma if you had places to surf and lakes/rivers that aren't mudholes.

Do you have any rivers in CA? I thought all of your water was imported.

We have a lot of mudholes in OK Good for crawfish. Well, there are some places like Grand Lake, Murray, tenkiller, etc... that aren't mudholes but have good cannibas locally for medicinal purposes. Good for what ails you.

But surf and turf is good in Cali. I like it. But there is a little too much fudge packin out there...not that that is a bad thing.

[SoCaliSooner]

If a disabled vet can pass the physical then they can get hired. That may be hard to do since you need to meet pretty high physical requirements to get on.

That's why when they took our sick leave down to what they did they really put a hurting on those who get sick. You go on FMLA and you can use up your leave pretty quick. If you get hurt on the job there is a number of weeks I can't remember but I believe it is only a couple of months before you get DQ even with workmans comp.


I'm talking about a military vet who gets out of the military on a disability. I am pretty sure no law enforcement or fire department is going to hire somebody that the government has tagged as disabled, especially if it's from some mental reason they are disabled. Nobody is going to put a gun in some potential wackadoo's hand and turn him loose on the public.

If they claim a physical disability that gets them a disability retirement, they would be hard pressed to show the legitimacy of their disability while being able to pass the rigors of a police or fire academy.

[OutlandTrophy]

What? At least on my department if you go on dissabillity through the dissability insurance depending on what it is and how long it takes to get better you can be DQ for the job. Has nothing to do with disabled vets? Most officers that get sick have to be back to work when their sick time runs out. Longterm dissabillity is for when you can no longer work for the department. Get shot not physically able to do the job any longer.

If a disabled vet can pass the physical then they can get hired. That may be hard to do since you need to meet pretty high physical requirements to get on.

That's why when they took our sick leave down to what they did they really put a hurting on those who get sick. You go on FMLA and you can use up your leave pretty quick. If you get hurt on the job there is a number of weeks I can't remember but I believe it is only a couple of months before you get DQ even with workmans comp.

how many days per year do you think is reasonable for you to be paid to not be at work?

[Turd_Ferguson]

how many days per year do you think is reasonable for you to be paid to not be at work?Knew an OCPD that had about 10-15 years in at the time...guess he was burnt out or something...****er hardly ever went to work. Used the patrol car for personal stuff...a real class act...

[SoonerNate]

You guys have tornados many times a year. Our last noticeable quake was 17 years ago and 40 years ago. You guys have even been getting quakes and nasty weather every year. You can have it and I'll keep surfing in Huntington Beach and Malibu and we'll both be happy.

I can't remember our last tornado here, honestly.

[SoonerKnight]

I'm talking about a military vet who gets out of the military on a disability. I am pretty sure no law enforcement or fire department is going to hire somebody that the government has tagged as disabled, especially if it's from some mental reason they are disabled. Nobody is going to put a gun in some potential wackadoo's hand and turn him loose on the public.

If they claim a physical disability that gets them a disability retirement, they would be hard pressed to show the legitimacy of their disability while being able to pass the rigors of a police or fire academy.

Well they would have to pass a psych test and a physical test. Now as far as their dissabillity and be LE well that would be up to the VA. In many cases though you can have an injury from millitary service and get a dissabillity check and be in LE. Say a 5% or 10% disabillity I would think as long as they pass the requirements they could be hired. Hell my dad's best friend was a vietnam vet, Navy Seal retired from the service had a dissabillity and after he retired became a deputy sheriff. He was able to get hired. You can have a dissabillity and still be in the service. It all depends on what it is. Especially now a days!

[Turd_Ferguson]

I've thought about asking the local Chief about being a reserve but I'm afraid I can't pass the MMPI to become CLEET.

[SoonerKnight]

how many days per year do you think is reasonable for you to be paid to not be at work?

If you have Cancer and your going through treatment I guess as many as needed! That is what the original conversation was about. I personally don't take many sick days. Usually the RRR is one of those times but hey I can't concentrate on the job when the sooners play that game! Sheesh!

My co-workers that get sick or have kids that get sick need that time off. I am not talking flu here. I am talking we have a few people that have kids with cancer. They take FMLA but after 200 hours they don't get paid unless we donate the time to them. At least we can do that! The point was is that the rest of the city has no limit on sick time or the limit on use of sick time. Our department does. I am not saying it is a raw deal just saying in this job which is already dangerous you need your wits about you or ya gonna get killed. Having to worry about your own health or a family member health while in my line of work is not safe.

[SoCaliSooner]

how many days per year do you think is reasonable for you to be paid to not be at work?

I work 10-12 days a month, more if there are big fires or I want OT. That leaves me with 18-20 days off every month.

[SoonerNate]

Florida > California

[SoCaliSooner]

Florida > California

Florida firefighters make much less than we do and I hate the humidity.

[SoonerNate]

My nose bleeds when I travel out west. I guess it's all about what you're used to.

Dry air makes my hands feel like sandpaper. The humidity is good for your skin/ lungs. I seldom ever get sick here.

[hawaii 5-0]

Yeah well, you saw them, I saw them. Their very presence was tantamount to litter.




Still waiting on Nate's response to this one.....


You against people's right to protest? Are you actually saying the People have no right to assemble??? You some kinda Fascist? What's the deal?

What exactly is your problem with the People's Right to Assemble, ie. the First Amendment?


Just wondrin'........


5-0



Trump/Nate 2012

[SoonerNate]

Still waiting on Nate's response to this one.....


You against people's right to protest? Are you actually saying the People have no right to assemble??? You some kinda Fascist? What's the deal?

What exactly is your problem with the People's Right to Assemble, ie. the First Amendment?


Just wondrin'........


5-0



Trump/Nate 2012

I never said I had a problem with their right to protest. Instead, I had an ethical problem with them taking time out of their job of teaching to selfishly obsess for the mighty dollar. If it were truly "for the children" they would have been working instead.

[SoonerKnight]

I never said I had a problem with their right to protest. Instead, I had an ethical problem with them taking time out of their job of teaching to selfishly obsess for the mighty dollar. If it were truly "for the children" they would have been working instead.

BS they have their own family to feed their not slaves damn it!

[SoonerNate]

BS they have their own family to feed their not slaves damn it!

You know what sir? I know of no other profession that bitches about their pay more so than teachers. People have known for years what teachers are paid. If they wanted more $ they should have chosen a different profession for Christ's sake! No one forced them to teach!

[hawaii 5-0]

Nate......

Your direct quote "Their very presence was tantamount to litter."


That sure looks like you have a problem with a group's Right to Assemble. You're not talking about protesting. You're talking about their PRESENCE


Spin away, please.


5-0



Trump/Palin 2012

[SoonerKnight]

Nate, people complain then they feel better about it! This was not one of those times they agreed to a pay cut but in the future when times are better they wanted to have a way to ask for more money. Your line of thinking stinks wosre than manure on cow patty factory! You sir apparently believe that teachers are worthless. In fact your probably one of those that believe that the government should not be schooling kids.

You don't realize this but teachers sacrifice a lot to teach. First, they have to put up with *******s like you then they have to struggle to pay the bills and feed their family. Then they have to hear about how they don't work hard enough and need more education and need to take more test and then maybe they can keep teaching! Their job is not easy they have to teach kids whose parents don't care and have the same attitude you do!

[SoonerNate]

Nate......

Your direct quote "Their very presence was tantamount to litter."


That sure looks like you have a problem with a group's Right to Assemble. You're not talking about protesting. You're talking about their PRESENCE


Spin away, please.


5-0





Trump/Palin 2012

I stand by that. The "presence" of union garbage is tantamount to trash to me, yes.

6-5

[hawaii 5-0]

I stand by that. The "presence" of union garbage is tantamount to trash to me, yes.

6-5


I see.........well, you're welcome to your opinion, no matter how un-American it is.

Any other Amendments you have a personal disdain for?





5-0




Trump/ Gollum 2012

[StoopTroup]

Nate, people complain then they feel better about it! This was not one of those times they agreed to a pay cut but in the future when times are better they wanted to have a way to ask for more money. Your line of thinking stinks wosre than manure on cow patty factory! You sir apparently believe that teachers are worthless. In fact your probably one of those that believe that the government should not be schooling kids.

You don't realize this but teachers sacrifice a lot to teach. First, they have to put up with *******s like you then they have to struggle to pay the bills and feed their family. Then they have to hear about how they don't work hard enough and need more education and need to take more test and then maybe they can keep teaching! Their job is not easy they have to teach kids whose parents don't care and have the same attitude you do!
So you are trying to make them seem human. How can you sleep at night? :D

[SoonerKnight]

So you are trying to make them seem human. How can you sleep at night? :D

Call me crazy but I had some really good teachers and they deserved to be paid well! They had a tough job and the good ones did it well. For example most of the teachers at my high school would stay late to tutor anyone that needed help in their subject all ya had to do was ask! They were not paid for that! But they did it for the love of teaching!

[SoonerNate]

I see.........well, you're welcome to your opinion, no matter how un-American it is.

Any other Amendments you have a personal disdain for?





5-0




Trump/ Gollum 2012

Yes. The 19th Amendment has created a nation full of women and feMALES. Don't believe me? Have you seen guys wearing skinny jeans?

[hawaii 5-0]

In Wisconsin, a governor, Scott Walker, who never campaigned on union busting, offered as one of his first proposals the virtual gutting of public sector unions (except for police and firefighters who, not coincidentally, supported his campaign; to their credit, police officers and firefighters nevertheless joined in protesting Walker's union-busting bill). He followed that up with a proposed budget that offered tax cuts for the wealthy but cut programs for the middle class, most notably hundreds of millions of dollars in education cuts (paired with rules that would prevent local school districts from doing anything to raise education funds locally).

So in addition to nearly a month of protests at the Capitol (the largest in Madison since Vietnam), polls show overwhelming disapproval of Walker's far-right initiatives, and one survey found that if the November election were held again, Walker would be handily defeated. Some Republicans are speaking out against Walker, regretting their votes for him. And the disapproval is not just poll-based. The governor's opponents have begun recall drives against eight Republican senators (several with good chances of actually leading to recall elections), as well as shining unprecedented attention on April's Wisconsin Supreme Court justice election, with Walker ally and incumbent David Prosser being targeted by angry anti-Walker constituents.

just a refresher........


So far, there's two Republicans that will face recall elections. Petition numbers are already there.

Gov. Walker's own Recall Petition drive will start in November.


5-0


Trump/Tiger 2012

[hawaii 5-0]

Yes. The 19th Amendment has created a nation full of women and feMALES. Don't believe me? Have you seen guys wearing skinny jeans?




Nate, you're a sad little man. I pity you.



5-0



Trump/Mengele 2012

[StoopTroup]

In Wisconsin, a governor, Scott Walker, who never campaigned on union busting, offered as one of his first proposals the virtual gutting of public sector unions (except for police and firefighters who, not coincidentally, supported his campaign; to their credit, police officers and firefighters nevertheless joined in protesting Walker's union-busting bill). He followed that up with a proposed budget that offered tax cuts for the wealthy but cut programs for the middle class, most notably hundreds of millions of dollars in education cuts (paired with rules that would prevent local school districts from doing anything to raise education funds locally).

So in addition to nearly a month of protests at the Capitol (the largest in Madison since Vietnam), polls show overwhelming disapproval of Walker's far-right initiatives, and one survey found that if the November election were held again, Walker would be handily defeated. Some Republicans are speaking out against Walker, regretting their votes for him. And the disapproval is not just poll-based. The governor's opponents have begun recall drives against eight Republican senators (several with good chances of actually leading to recall elections), as well as shining unprecedented attention on April's Wisconsin Supreme Court justice election, with Walker ally and incumbent David Prosser being targeted by angry anti-Walker constituents.

just a refresher........


So far, there's two Republicans that will face recall elections. Petition numbers are already there.

Gov. Walker's own Recall Petition drive will start in November.


5-0


Trump/Tiger 2012

People who blindly hate Union won't care. The thing is those Unions are now full of 2 or 3 generations of people who ended up joining it because they couldn't beat it and now they have 401Ks, Roths, pensions and such that they earned ans some folks in his country don't GAS about any of that. They think it was those people that ruined the Company or the Unions and the actual Unions haven't done squat to hurt this Country in decades.

Donald Trumps book The art of the Deal has more truth in him taking over Companies in order to see just how far bad Management will go in order to save their own skin and/bonuses. Most will do anything in order to keep it going up to and including ruining everyone's careers at mergers of two Companies to keep trump from buying it. I once heard a CEO state he kept the debt at the company high in order to keep guys like Trump and T Boone Pickens from raidering them. Who gives a **** if the Stock holders lose as long as the management gets a massive salary and perks and bonuses.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

In Wisconsin, a governor, Scott Walker, who never campaigned on union busting, offered as one of his first proposals the virtual gutting of public sector unions (except for police and firefighters who, not coincidentally, supported his campaign; to their credit, police officers and firefighters nevertheless joined in protesting Walker's union-busting bill). He followed that up with a proposed budget that offered tax cuts for the wealthy but cut programs for the middle class, most notably hundreds of millions of dollars in education cuts (paired with rules that would prevent local school districts from doing anything to raise education funds locally).

So in addition to nearly a month of protests at the Capitol (the largest in Madison since Vietnam), polls show overwhelming disapproval of Walker's far-right initiatives, and one survey found that if the November election were held again, Walker would be handily defeated. Some Republicans are speaking out against Walker, regretting their votes for him. And the disapproval is not just poll-based. The governor's opponents have begun recall drives against eight Republican senators (several with good chances of actually leading to recall elections), as well as shining unprecedented attention on April's Wisconsin Supreme Court justice election, with Walker ally and incumbent David Prosser being targeted by angry anti-Walker constituents.

just a refresher........


So far, there's two Republicans that will face recall elections. Petition numbers are already there.

Gov. Walker's own Recall Petition drive will start in November.


5-0


Trump/Tiger 2012

Then the voters in Whisky must be dumber than hell. I have a friend living in Germantown, we spoke of Walker as he used to be Milwaukee County commissioner or something. He was a budget hawk then, he still is. I am not surprised by what he has done given his previous budget cuts in Milwaukee. Why are people surprised today???

[StoopTroup]

Then the voters in Whisky must be dumber than hell. I have a friend living in Germantown, we spoke of Walker as he used to be Milwaukee County commissioner or something. He was a budget hawk then, he still is. I am not surprised by what he has done given his previous budget cuts in Milwaukee. Why are people surprised today???

I'm not. I saw what Tulsa elected for mayor and I was surprised it didn't cause an entire freaking street war in our City. No Helicopters with infra red got rid of the Police Horse Unit. Those guys scared the **** out of people that might cause trouble Downtown when you go to the BOK.

Dude turned off the lights on the expressways. It made it unsafe and very dangerous at night and it made it feel like Tulsa wasn't even a place you'd want to stop as you were traveling through.

He finally got some sense and figured out that although he meant well....he was putting people's lives at risk.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

He finally got some sense (Dewey Bartlett Jr.) and figured out that although he meant well....he was putting people's lives at risk.

See, that's the funny part where you're supposed to laugh. ST ain't above inserting a joke in a serious post and that's why we love him.

He's not done. And he didn't figure out crap. The cops had the crosshairs on his *** by the force reduction clauses in the the COPS and JAG grants. Between that and the building pressure from outside of City Hall, they put the birds back in the air.

The only thing we're lacking is someone to pop that no-chin having son of a bitch in the mouth.

[tcrb]

If you have Cancer and your going through treatment I guess as many as needed! That is what the original conversation was about. I personally don't take many sick days. Usually the RRR is one of those times but hey I can't concentrate on the job when the sooners play that game! Sheesh!

My co-workers that get sick or have kids that get sick need that time off. I am not talking flu here. I am talking we have a few people that have kids with cancer. They take FMLA but after 200 hours they don't get paid unless we donate the time to them. At least we can do that! The point was is that the rest of the city has no limit on sick time or the limit on use of sick time. Our department does. I am not saying it is a raw deal just saying in this job which is already dangerous you need your wits about you or ya gonna get killed. Having to worry about your own health or a family member health while in my line of work is not safe.

So if I understand you correctly, you believe that your employer should pay you indefinitely when you, or a member of your family are sick or injured and you are not at work performing your job?

[badger]

Then the voters in Whisky must be dumber than hell. I have a friend living in Germantown, we spoke of Walker as he used to be Milwaukee County commissioner or something. He was a budget hawk then, he still is. I am not surprised by what he has done given his previous budget cuts in Milwaukee. Why are people surprised today???

Is he the reason why one year when I went to the State Fair in Milwaukee that there were suddenly bathroom attendants hawking for donations to bathroom maintenance?

My 7-year-old self was like wtf even before there was a wtf

[pphilfran]

So if I understand you correctly, you believe that your employer should pay you indefinitely when you, or a member of your family are sick or injured and you are not at work performing your job?

Yep, that the way it looks to me...

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Is he the reason why one year when I went to the State Fair in Milwaukee that there were suddenly bathroom attendants hawking for donations to bathroom maintenance?

My 7-year-old self was like wtf even before there was a wtf

Did the bathroom attendants have small chins and oversized, black eyes?

http://www.everwonder.com/david/aliens/alien00.jpg

Did you happen to notice anything that would suggest they were looking to perform some scientific research?

http://www.planetazakupow.com/CHEMIA/anal.jpg

[pphilfran]

They take FMLA but after 200 hours they don't get paid unless we donate the time to them. At least we can do that!

You can transfer some of your sick days to someone else?

If true, that is insane...

[tcrb]

You can transfer some of your sick days to someone else?

If true, that is insane...

It's fairly common....lots of companies allow employees to donate sick or vacation time to help a sick co-worker.

[pphilfran]

It's fairly common....lots of companies allow employees to donate sick or vacation time to help a sick co-worker.

Really..never had a job with that option...I might see vacation...but not sick pay...

[Tulsa_Fireman]

If it's anything like we do, you're actually using your own time but working the shift of the person in need.

[pphilfran]

If it's anything like we do, you're actually using your own time but working the shift of the person in need.

Bob with cancer needs a day off...Healthy Tom works his shift...Bob gets his regular pay and Tom gets nothing?

[sappstuf]

The governor's opponents have begun recall drives against eight Republican senators (several with good chances of actually leading to recall elections), as well as shining unprecedented attention on April's Wisconsin Supreme Court justice election, with Walker ally and incumbent David Prosser being targeted by angry anti-Walker constituents.just a refresher........

So far, there's two Republicans that will face recall elections. Petition numbers are already there.

Gov. Walker's own Recall Petition drive will start in November.

5-0

Trump/Tiger 2012

And what exactly did that "unprecedented attention" get you? YOU LOST!!

With all the supposed momentum and a huge financial advantage you got exactly nothing.... That election was the end of union power in Wisconsin for a long time, if not ever.

The Dems stategy was "all or nothing" in regards to the recall elections.. They must run the board for it to mean anything. The supreme court election was just a preliminary bout and it appears the Dems will get nothing in the end.

Here is a nice news article about which senator would be in worse shape if a recall election were to happen.. (Hint.. It's not the Repub.)

UzodFBDG-t4

[tcrb]

Really..never had a job with that option...I might see vacation...but not sick pay...

It depends on how the sick days are set up, Phil. At my current job, I have 3 weeks of vacation plus 1 week of what they call "personal leave days". Those personal leave days can be used as sick time, or if I have a family member who is sick, or to go to court, or whatever. In reality, they are really just another week of vacation, except I'm not allowed to carry them over to the next year, and do not get paid for them if I do not use them. My employer allows me to donate those days, or my vacation days to someone else, but only if that person in need has already exhausted all of their own personal vacation and personal leave days.

[pphilfran]

It depends on how the sick days are set up, Phil. At my current job, I have 3 weeks of vacation plus 1 week of what they call "personal leave days". Those personal leave days can be used as sick time, or if I have a family member who is sick, or to go to court, or whatever. In reality, they are really just another week of vacation, except I'm not allowed to carry them over to the next year, and do not get paid for them if I do not use them. My employer allows me to donate those days, or my vacation days to someone else, but only if that person in need has already exhausted all of their own personal vacation and personal leave days.



Thanks...I can see giving vacation or even the personal...it is giving away sick time that kinda nags at me...

[SoCaliSooner]

You can transfer some of your sick days to someone else?

If true, that is insane...

Our department allows us to transfer sick/vacation time to another employee. Those of us hired before 1997 could accrue up to 16 weeks of sick time, so you have the option of either transferring the time to your fellow employees time off or work his shift and he gets the day off and you get the day with pay.

[pphilfran]

Our department allows us to transfer sick/vacation time to another employee. Those of us hired before 1997 could accrue up to 16 weeks of sick time, so you have the option of either transferring the time to your fellow employees time off or work his shift and he gets the day off and you get the day with pay.

Straight time?

[SoCaliSooner]

Straight time?


Depends. If you were scheduled off that day and come in then it's probably straight pay, but your next day on might lead to OT. If you already worked the prior 24 or 48 hours then it would be OT.

[pphilfran]

Depends. If you were scheduled off that day and come in then it's probably straight pay, but your next day on might lead to OT. If you already worked the prior 24 or 48 hours then it would be OT.

I figured that would be the case...

Shouldn't be that way...you make out by getting OT...the sick guy makes out (in a sense) by being off as he needs to be....the company gets screwed with higher labor costs...

[pphilfran]

Okie will be far more the expert short term and long term insurance/disability than myself...

You should have x amount of sick days...y amount of personal/vacation days...if you have an illness that uses up all of that time there may be light duty work or some type of st/lt disability to fill in the void, though it may be at a reduced percentage...

[hawaii 5-0]

Liar Gov. Walker finally comes clean under oath.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/scott-walker-admits-he-didnt-campaign-on-rollback-of-bargaining-rights/2011/03/03/AFZkUedD_blog.html


"Under persistent questioning on the Hill today, Governor Scott Walker finally admitted something he’s refused to acknowledge throughout the Wisconsin controversy: He never campaigned explicitly on any proposal to roll back the collective bargaining rights of public employees."


Pants on Fire


5-0


Trump/Trig 2012