Just Got The Home Appraisal Back....

[OUthunder]

Arrrrrrrrrgh!

I hate appraisers.

Dispute filed with the mortgage company.

[NormanPride]

I'll give you tree fiddy.

[OUthunder]

I'll give you tree fiddy.

That's about what it appraised at.

On the bright side, it's worth $2k more than it was in 2007 when we bought it.

[olevetonahill]

At least yer not upside down on it

[2121Sooner]

The fact you aren't negative is surprising

But your dispute might not go anywhere. They are basing a lot of your value off of comp in the area. Numbers don't lie

[JohnnyMack]

You expected great things?

[2121Sooner]

You expected great things?

Hahahaha!!!!!!

[OUthunder]

The fact you aren't negative is surprising

But your dispute might not go anywhere. They are basing a lot of your value off of comp in the area. Numbers don't lie

Those comps are more than what they gave us and our home is bigger. That's why we are filing the dispute. The appraisal makes little sense.

[OUthunder]

You expected great things?

Believe it or not, I normally try to be upbeat and positive, especially when it has to do with our money.

[sooner_born_1960]

Are you selling?

[GDC]

I agree Thunder, appraisers are morons and scam artists in league with bankers, real estate brokers and other worthless types. In my most recent divorce they way overvalued the house my bitch ex kept and way undervalued the house I kept.

[OUthunder]

At least yer not upside down on it

I shouldn't be, we put almost 25k down on the sucker!

[sooner_born_1960]

Or, refinancing?

[OUthunder]

Or, refinancing?

Re-fi. Locked in 4.875% a few weeks ago.

[PhiDeltBeers]

Add a shack on the hill.

:D

[2121Sooner]

I agree Thunder, appraisers are morons and scam artists in league with bankers, real estate brokers and other worthless types. In my most recent divorce they way overvalued the house my bitch ex kept and way undervalued the house I kept.

Wouldn't a banker or real estate agent want the house to appraise for more so it would be easier to sell/refi whatever? Seems to me like that would be my train of thought if I was trying to make money off his house

[PhiDeltBeers]

Re-fi. Locked in 4.875% a few weeks ago.

Not bad. I refied at 5% year ago and walked away with $40k and $800 off my monthly payment.

[2121Sooner]

To make matters worse, it appraised at 4002 sq ft when we bougth it, and this guy appraised it's size at 3888.

Did my house shrink in 4 years?

I'm open for recommendations and suggestions.

Back in 2007 appraisals and everything else associated with buying a house was bullish!t so why do you think that appraisal was correct? Because you agreed with it? That is a fair question.

[OUthunder]

Not bad. I refied a year ago and walked away with $40k and $800 off my monthly payment.

It'll lower our monthly payment by around $500.

[OUthunder]

Back in 2007 appraisals and everything else associated with buying a house was bullish!t so why do you think that appraisal was correct? Because you agreed with it? That is a fair question.

No, because I paid for it.

[2121Sooner]

But my question was, why is the other one correct and not this one. The fact that your house appraised at the same value it did near the height of he market makes me wonder about this appraiser as well.

Don't make no sense

[OUthunder]

But my question was, why is the other one correct and not this one. The fact that your house appraised at the same value it did near the height of he market makes me wonder about this appraiser as well.

Don't make no sense

Exactly! I just want the facts so that I can make an informed decision.

[pphilfran]

To make matters worse, it appraised at 4002 sq ft when we bougth it, and this guy appraised it's size at 3888.

Did my house shrink in 4 years?

I'm open for recommendations and suggestions.

You only put 25k down on a 4000 sq/ft house? 5-10%? Or did you buy a poll barn for significantly less? You are lucky you are not upside down...

[OUthunder]

You only put 25k down on a 4000 sq/ft house? 5-10%? Or did you buy a poll barn for significantly less? You are lucky you are not upside down...

Actually, I negotiated the hell out of the deal. Plus, it's Oklahoma, not exactly the highest priced market in the nation.

25k was a rough estimate.

[pphilfran]

To make matters worse, it appraised at 4002 sq ft when we bougth it, and this guy appraised it's size at 3888.

Did my house shrink in 4 years?

I'm open for recommendations and suggestions.

You can easily verify each rooms measurements...within an hour you will know which number is correct...

[pphilfran]

How old were the comp sales?

[OUthunder]

How old were the comp sales?

All less than 3 months old.

I know the market is what it is, but a smaller house with less "stuff" goes at $113, $109, $107, and $103 a square foot. Then they hit me at $101? My lender is a friend and neighbor, he was shocked. he already filed the dispute.

[pphilfran]

Are you refinancing?

[JohnnyMack]

You should have blown the appraiser.

[sooner_born_1960]

That doesn't help. What? Wait.

[StoopTroup]

That's about what it appraised at.

On the bright side, it's worth $2k more than it was in 2007 when we bought it.

Just putting a couple of lightning rods on every gable isn't gonna be enough to raise the value. You are gonna have to get everyone around you to put up rods.

[PhiDeltBeers]

Just putting a couple of lightning rods on every gable isn't gonna be enough to raise the value. You are gonna have to get everyone around you to put up rods.

Or shacks on a hill.

[sooner_born_1960]

You can easily verify each rooms measurements...within an hour you will know which number is correct...
The appraisal should be veneer, which is measuring the outside.

[StoopTroup]

All less than 3 months old.

I know the market is what it is, but a smaller house with less "stuff" goes at $113, $109, $107, and $103 a square foot. Then they hit me at $101? My lender is a friend and neighbor, he was shocked. he already filed the dispute.

I'd find someone objective that wasn't a friend and have a hand in the game to explain why they think it happened.

[sooner_born_1960]

minus the garage, of course.

[pphilfran]

The appraisal should be veneer, which is measuring the outside.

Even easier...

[StoopTroup]

The questions on the appraisal and how they are answered as opposed to the ones that were $113, 109, 107, 103. What does the County Assesor think all those houses are valued at? What changes have you made in the last five years? How old is the roof, the heat and air, when was it last decorated, curb appeal, is the driveway cracked.....it's a lot of stuff.

Now you have something to work with...you can find out how to get it higher now. I wouldn't depend on a dispute.

[StoopTroup]

If you are trying to get it lower....move your inlaws in with you

[MamaMia]

We put in a pool and even though we still have quite a bit of yard, the appraiser said our home was worth less because a lot of people don't want the hassle of an in ground swimming pool. Enter the county bitch...she raised our property taxes 35%, because of the pool. :rolleyes:

[StoopTroup]

It takes money to lose money.....lol

[sooner_born_1960]

I've heard that a pool doesn't do anything but cut your potential buyers in half.

[SunnySooner]

We bought in Florida. In 2007. We're so far underwater, I'm developing gills, ala Kevin Costner in Waterworld. Luckily, we love the house/area/neighborhood, so hopefully we can hang on to it until we're ahead again, but I hear ya.

Always wondered why none of the "bailouts" included $$$ for peeps like us...there's a tiny bit, but it comes with a bunch of rules, we don't qualify for help, not even a refi from 2007 interest rates, which are painful. Damn us for paying our mortgage on time!!!!!!!!

[sooner_born_1960]

Really, an appraisal shouldn't mean anything except when refinancing. If you're selling, just stick to your price. If it's fair, there will be buyers.

[Mjcpr]

I re-fi'd in October for 3.875% and shaved 5 years off my loan.

Yay me.

[PhiDeltBeers]

My trees really raised the value of my house.

:D

[pphilfran]

I see where you are refinancing...

If you got a hell of a deal and you put 25k down you should have at least 25% equity at the lowest comp...

You must be trying to suck some money out with the refinance...

[sooner_born_1960]

That's $100 per foot. He only has about 6 -7 % equity. If I'm reading it right.

[pphilfran]

We bought in Florida. In 2007. We're so far underwater, I'm developing gills, ala Kevin Costner in Waterworld. Luckily, we love the house/area/neighborhood, so hopefully we can hang on to it until we're ahead again, but I hear ya.

Always wondered why none of the "bailouts" included $$$ for peeps like us...there's a tiny bit, but it comes with a bunch of rules, we don't qualify for help, not even a refi from 2007 interest rates, which are painful. Damn us for paying our mortgage on time!!!!!!!!

Each and every loan should have been looked at individually...responsible people like yourself should have been given a hand...house flippers and multiple mortgage owners would be far down the list of bailout help...

[StoopTroup]

I see where you are refinancing...

If you got a hell of a deal and you put 25k down you should have at least 25% equity at the lowest comp...

You must be trying to suck some money out with the refinance...

Yeah....I miss read his intentions too. He just needs a good fire....maybe some lightning....thunder ain't gonna cut it

[pphilfran]

That 100 per foot. He only has about 6 -7 % equity. If I'm reading it right.

He has 4000 sq feet at 400k appraised...

He said he got a hell of a deal when he bought it and put down 25k...I guessed hell of a deal being 325k so his loan was for 300k...

Hell, I don't know...

[sooner_born_1960]

My guess on the equity was 25/400. About 6.25%

[pphilfran]

My guess on the equity was 25/400. About 6.25%

Who knows...hopefully he can give us some more details and then I won't have to make wild azz guesses...

[olevetonahill]

Add a shack on the hill.

:D

Hey The Shack is ****ing priceless:P

[MamaMia]

I've heard that a pool doesn't do anything but cut your potential buyers in half.

That would make sense to me. I don't get why it raised my property taxes so much. :confused:

[Turd_Ferguson]

I'd like to re-fi, but they said I'd have to actually start making payments first...sonsofbitches.

[MamaMia]

I've had some face lift type stuff done, like replacing crappy tile and carpet with stone and granite, some wall texturing, new appliances, installed a swarovski chandelier and sconces, put in new windows, a window seat, some other light fixtures and faucets and things. Can that bitch come in my house?

[olevetonahill]

I've had some face lift type stuff done, like replacing crappy tile and carpet with stone and granite, some wall texturing, new appliances, installed a swarovski chandelier and sconces, put in new windows, a window seat, some other light fixtures and faucets and things. Can that bitch come in my house?

I dont think you have to let em in, But then if they get POed at ya they just take Wild assed guess's and prolly Be on the High side then

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I got a pretty good interest rate on my house...its not a great house or anything, but it'll be paid off next year

[olevetonahill]

I got a pretty good interest rate on my house...its not a great house or anything, but it'll be paid off next year

Then you gonna buy yer beautiful wife some shoes ?

[StoopTroup]

We refied once. I wish I hadn't. We've got less time before it's paid off though

[sooneron]

I would kill some babies for a 4k sq ft house for the $400K range. Hell, the $600k range...

[OUthunder]

That's $100 per foot. He only has about 6 -7 % equity. If I'm reading it right.

Roughly 9%

[pphilfran]

Roughly 9%

I am still confused...

You have a house that appraised for something like 400k...basically the same amount that it was appraised when you purchased the home...

You put about 25k down...

You got a hell of a deal...

Yet your loan balance (based on the 9% at 400k worth) is somewhere around 364k?

You gave 389k for a house appraised at 400k?

What am I missing?

How much equity is the lender requiring for you to refinance? Is it your current lender?

[SC Sooner]

All less than 3 months old.

I know the market is what it is, but a smaller house with less "stuff" goes at $113, $109, $107, and $103 a square foot. Then they hit me at $101? My lender is a friend and neighbor, he was shocked. he already filed the dispute.

A couple of things. First, if you have a 200 SF discrepancy in living area. I'd say that has to be resolved - and should be (as you've apparently done) appealed to the lender. Secondly, it is almost always true that a smaller home will sell for more per SF than a larger home. The exception being condition, features, etc.

[OutlandTrophy]

I bet that PMI is a bitch!

[Skysooner]

A couple of things. First, if you have a 200 SF discrepancy in living area. I'd say that has to be resolved - and should be (as you've apparently done) appealed to the lender. Secondly, it is almost always true that a smaller home will sell for more per SF than a larger home. The exception being condition, features, etc.

Totally true. In a given neighborhood or area, if the houses are all approximately the same age, if you graph $/sq ft vs. sq ft, the slope is negative, so you get less $/sq ft as your house gets bigger.

[OUthunder]

I am still confused...

You have a house that appraised for something like 400k...basically the same amount that it was appraised when you purchased the home...

You put about 25k down...

You got a hell of a deal...

Yet your loan balance (based on the 9% at 400k worth) is somewhere around 364k?

You gave 389k for a house appraised at 400k?

What am I missing?

How much equity is the lender requiring for you to refinance? Is it your current lender?

Balance on the loan is $318k We have been making 1 double payment a year for about three years and those can go towards whatever you want. I chose principal.

[OUthunder]

I bet that PMI is a bitch!

The way that I understand PMI, is that it cost next to nothing until the bubble burst on the mortgage crisis.

[OutlandTrophy]

even if it's $100/month I would hate to **** away $1,200 per year on nothing.

[texaspokieokie]

"i chose principal".

what were other choices ??

[fwsooner22]

Your best bet is to get your own appraisal. Even though you HATE US. There are good appraisers and bad appraisers. You have every right to question that appraiser. He should make it right (if he made a mistake). It'll be well worth your $350.00 to get your own appraisal if you are really going to fight it. Most good appraisers will do 3 to 4 appraisals a day. They are very busy right now due to the refi craze. They absolutely make mistakes.

[Veritas]

Your best bet is to get your own appraisal. Even though you HATE US. There are good appraisers and bad appraisers. You have every right to question that appraiser. He should make it right (if he made a mistake). It'll be well worth your $350.00 to get your own appraisal if you are really going to fight it. Most good appraisers will do 3 to 4 appraisals a day. They are very busy right now due to the refi craze. They absolutely make mistakes.
This. +1. Ditto. Whatever.

People love to hate on appraisers because nobody likes to find out that their **** just isn't worth what they thought it was.

[OULenexaman]

Pawn Stars..

[PhiDeltBeers]

My PMI was around $250 a month before I refied. I had them "get rid" of it and roll it into the interest rate so it would be tax deductable. So, that gave me $3000 that was now deductable. My house appraised for 126 per foot on 3800'. I gained about $30k in 2 years from what I paid.

[SoCaliSooner]

This. +1. Ditto. Whatever.

People love to hate on appraisers because nobody likes to find out that their **** just isn't worth what they thought it was.
I never understand the appraiser hate. Many times the "improvements" made, while costing money, don't raise the value of the house, it just makes it more to your liking. I've put in 2 pools/spas for my own enjoyment and in SoCal most people want a pool/spa so it generally helps the appraisal, but it wasn't an aspect of my decision.

People often want to re-fi to lower rates to save some coin when they are either upside down or even neutral and blame the appraiser for having some type of agenda. The appraiser gets paid the same amount either way. He can't value a home at $400K when all the others in the hood are selling for $325K...

[pphilfran]

Balance on the loan is $318k I have been making double payments for about three years and those can go towards whatever you want. I chose principal.


You have 20% equity...I wouldn't think the refinance would be a problem with that much equity so the lower appraisal really don't mean chit....

[jkjsooner]

I agree Thunder, appraisers are morons and scam artists in league with bankers, real estate brokers and other worthless types. In my most recent divorce they way overvalued the house my bitch ex kept and way undervalued the house I kept.

The funny thing is that during the bubble the appraisers were coming up with whatever number the lender wanted. If they needed a house to be $xxx, they would get it.

The reason this is interesting is because the appraiser is there to protect the lender. What's the point of doing an appraisal if the lender is pressuring the person doing the appraising to give him a certain number? I suppose it comes down to reselling the loan and packaging it up in securities, etc.

It was also interesting that buyers gripped about the collusion in the appraisal process. They failed to realize that the appraisal was for the benefit of the lender - or was supposed to be. If the buyer was worried about it they could have hired their own independent appraiser as well.

[C&CDean]

I'm no home finance guru, but I've been around long enough, and bought/sold enough homes to know this:

1. If you put in a pool, it's gotta be for YOUR pleasure only. It won't add a dime to a future sale of the home, and will keep a lot of buyers away.

2. Buy property/house way in the hell out of town. I've built shops, barns, had my electrician son wire them up, had tons and tons of concrete poured, built corrals, etc. and never once had a "county bitch" show their face or have any type of permit for the work.

They have called once or twice and asked "have you added any permanent structures to your property this year?" to which I've answered "yes, a 60x60 shop that's used for agriculture and repairs to farm equipment." My taxes went up $11.

Every year I have to file a property tax statement showing all the farm equipment I own and the value of it. They don't ever question it.

And just for sooneron, I purchased a 2-year old 3,400 SF home built by a builder with nary a piece of plywood or particle board in it - even the roof decking is 1x8 tongue/grooved, a 40x40 barn, corrals, fencing, all on 160 acres for $339K. It's good to be in Okiehoma.

[jkjsooner]

I never understand the appraiser hate. Many times the "improvements" made, while costing money, don't raise the value of the house, it just makes it more to your liking. I've put in 2 pools/spas for my own enjoyment and in SoCal most people want a pool/spa so it generally helps the appraisal, but it wasn't an aspect of my decision.



Question for you or the appraisers here. I'm probably going to buy a new home shortly. We want to go slightly lower in size than we can afford and get a lot of extras - granite, nice appliances, nice tile, etc. (I should say "willing to afford" as the lenders are ridiculous in their calculations on what people can afford. We don't want to be a slave to a house.)

Will this potentially cause a problem come appraisal time because the cost per square foot is a lot higher?

We haven't started the process so I don't know what kind of deposit is required but I don't want to risk losing a sizeable deposit because of appraisal issues keep me from getting financing. (I'm only going to be able to put down about 10% - maybe slightly less considering closing costs.)

[OutlandTrophy]

(I'm only going to be able to put down about 10% - maybe slightly less considering closing costs.)

you should rent

[PhiDeltBeers]

I'm no home finance guru, but I've been around long enough, and bought/sold enough homes to know this:

1. If you put in a pool, it's gotta be for YOUR pleasure only. It won't add a dime to a future sale of the home, and will keep a lot of buyers away.

2. Buy property/house way in the hell out of town. I've built shops, barns, had my electrician son wire them up, had tons and tons of concrete poured, built corrals, etc. and never once had a "county bitch" show their face or have any type of permit for the work.

They have called once or twice and asked "have you added any permanent structures to your property this year?" to which I've answered "yes, a 60x60 shop that's used for agriculture and repairs to farm equipment." My taxes went up $11.

Every year I have to file a property tax statement showing all the farm equipment I own and the value of it. They don't ever question it.

And just for sooneron, I purchased a 2-year old 3,400 SF home built by a builder with nary a piece of plywood or particle board in it - even the roof decking is 1x8 tongue/grooved, a 40x40 barn, corrals, fencing, all on 160 acres for $339K. It's good to be in Okiehoma.

Dag, I paid about 1/2 a mill and my house is full of OSB on a half acre in OKlahoma. I got screwed!


Edit: I forgot....it's my trees.
:D

[jkjsooner]

And just for sooneron, I purchased a 2-year old 3,400 SF home built by a builder with nary a piece of plywood or particle board in it - even the roof decking is 1x8 tongue/grooved, a 40x40 barn, corrals, fencing, all on 160 acres for $339K. It's good to be in Okiehoma.

That's great. The house I owned years ago had some kind of cardboard looking crap on the outside. They slapped brick on the front and just metal siding on the sides. I bought the house already built but when they were building houses across the street I asked the guy about what he was putting on the side. He said it was good stuff - very energy efficient - but you wouldn't want it in a place that had drive by shootings. B.S. I couldn't believe it didn't at least have plywood or particle board.

[pphilfran]

I am not sure how many 90% loans are currently available so I won't even address that issue..

As far as upgrades...be careful that you do not make your home the most expensive in the neighborhood...those high end upgrades might not translate well when they pull the comps for the appraisal...

[C&CDean]

Dag, I paid about 1/2 a mill and my house is full of OSB on a half acre in OKlahoma. I got screwed!


Edit: I forgot....it's my trees.
:D

Mother****er, I've got more trees in a hunnert-squared foot patch behind the barn than you got on your whole dang place. Big ones. OLD ones. Pecan, walnut, hickory, red oak, post oak, blackjack, hackberry, POS elms, bodarks (yes I know that ain't how it's spelled but I ain't french), sweetgums, willows and all kinds of crap.

Don't even ask me what I pay for property taxes each year. I'll give you a hint though. It's a hell of a lot less than one of your monthly mortgage payments.

[PhiDeltBeers]

That's great. The house I owned years ago had some kind of cardboard looking crap on the outside. They slapped brick on the front and just metal siding on the sides. I bought the house already built but when they were building houses across the street I asked the guy about what he was putting on the side. He said it was good stuff - very energy efficient - but you wouldn't want it in a place that had drive by shootings. B.S. I couldn't believe it didn't at least have plywood or particle board.

Probably a foam board insulator.

[C&CDean]

Oh yeah, I forgot redbuds. When I was home this past weekend clearing brush I saw the redbuds were fixin' to bloom. Since we haven't had any moisture I guess there won't be any mushrooms this year though. That is a bummer.

[PhiDeltBeers]

Mother****er, I've got more trees in a hunnert-squared foot patch behind the barn than you got on your whole dang place. Big ones. OLD ones. Pecan, walnut, hickory, red oak, post oak, blackjack, hackberry, POS elms, bodarks (yes I know that ain't how it's spelled but I ain't french), sweetgums, willows and all kinds of crap.

Don't even ask me what I pay for property taxes each year. I'll give you a hint though. It's a hell of a lot less than one of your monthly mortgage payments.

Yeah, I'm not real fond of $6500 a year in property tax.

P.S. I was kidding with you on the trees. ;)

[jkjsooner]

I am not sure how many 90% loans are currently available so I won't even address that issue..

As far as upgrades...be careful that you do not make your home the most expensive in the neighborhood...those high end upgrades might not translate well when they pull the comps for the appraisal...

As for #1, I keep hearing that on NPR but when looking for a loan seems very doable. They've pre-approved me. I know pre-approval can be B.S. sometimes but this wasn't an Internet type thing.

I could be wrong but I get the feeling that this talk about not being able to get a loan w/o 20% down is really for people who don't have outstanding credit. If you guys disagree let me know as your information could save me from losing escrow and/or deposit money.

As for upgrades, well, we won't be the most expensive in the neighborhood. I have a feeling plenty of people are getting the same upgrades and this definitely isn't the largest houses in the neighborhood. We'll see.

[OutlandTrophy]

seriously, if you can't put at least 20% down you should just rent until you can.

[jkjsooner]

Probably a foam board insulator.

Sounds right. I thought it looked cheap - even if it was hidden by brick/siding.

[PhiDeltBeers]

Uhh, cash in hand is priceless.

[jkjsooner]

seriously, if you can't put at least 20% down you should just rent until you can.

Well, this isn't Oklahoma/Texas so 20% down means about 80k minimum. That ain't easy to come up with.

A few years ago I could have put down 25% but, well, my (at the time future) wife wasn't very good with money long before I met her. Paying off her debt and our wedding expenses pretty much destroyed my savings.

I'm still a little bitter about that (the debt part not the wedding expenses.) I need to get over it though...

[olevetonahill]

Well, this isn't Oklahoma/Texas so 20% down means about 80k minimum. That ain't easy to come up with.

A few years ago I could have put down 25% but, well, my (at the time future) wife wasn't very good with money long before I met her. Paying off her debt and our wedding expenses pretty much destroyed my savings.

I'm still a little bitter about that. I need to get over it though...

Yea you really should, Sounds like you went into the wedding with your eyes wide open and knew all this before hand

[pphilfran]

As for #1, I keep hearing that on NPR but when looking for a loan seems very doable. They've pre-approved me. I know pre-approval can be B.S. sometimes but this wasn't an Internet type thing.

I could be wrong but I get the feeling that this talk about not being able to get a loan w/o 20% down is really for people who don't have outstanding credit. If you guys disagree let me know as your information could save me from losing escrow and/or deposit money.

As for upgrades, well, we won't be the most expensive in the neighborhood. I have a feeling plenty of people are getting the same upgrades and this definitely isn't the largest houses in the neighborhood. We'll see.

It sounds like you should be ok with the upgrades...just don't go overboard...

I tend to agree with Outland...though my views have somewhat changed since the meltdown....

With that little down you are probably going to get hit with a PMI payment...you should understand how much that will effect your payments...get with your lender...

Houses cost money...taxes, insurance, upkeep...a bunch of bucks...you should be able to save a ton of money each month while you are renting...if you are unable to then you might not have enough disposable income to support the home...

I am not sure where you are living but there is still risk of future price decline...most of OK should be fine but other parts of the country are still at risk...

On the other hand there is far less risk today than 3 years ago...so the chance of being upside down is lower...you do not EVER want to be upside down in a home loan...tread carefully...

[jkjsooner]

Yea you really should, Sounds like you went into the wedding with your eyes wide open and knew all this before hand

I agree. 95% of the time I'm okay with it. 5% of the time I'm not. Clearly I'm in that 5% right at the moment. Anyway, I got way too personal here so I should back off a bit.

[pphilfran]

I agree. 95% of the time I'm okay with it. 5% of the time I'm not. Clearly I'm in that 5% right at the moment. Anyway, I got way too personal here so I should back off a bit.

No you didn't...we enjoy seeing people cry in their beer....

[C&CDean]

I agree. 95% of the time I'm okay with it. 5% of the time I'm not. Clearly I'm in that 5% right at the moment. Anyway, I got way too personal here so I should back off a bit.

If you don't back off a bit you're gonna be the next guy starting a "the yainch left me and I don't know why" thread. Just sayin'.

[jkjsooner]

It sounds like you should be ok with the upgrades...just don't go overboard...

I tend to agree with Outland...though my views have somewhat changed since the meltdown....

With that little down you are probably going to get hit with a PMI payment...you should understand how much that will effect your payments...get with your lender...

We've already gone through the numbers. We'll probably go with a 80/10/10 loan that doesn't require PMI. It's not a ton cheaper than paying PMI but I'd like to opportunity to pay that 10% off quickly. If I buy a house with a 90% loan with PMI, pay it down to 80% as quickly as possible, there's no guarantee that the house will still be worth what I paid and I might still end up having to pay PMI. If I do the 80/10/10 loan I'm not at the mercy of the future valuation of the house.



Houses cost money...taxes, insurance, upkeep...a bunch of bucks...you should be able to save a ton of money each month while you are renting...if you are unable to then you might not have enough disposable income to support the home...

We just moved from a more expensive area to a cheaper area. We are able to sock away at least couple of grand per month now but it's only be a few months. If I had my way we'd do this for another year minimum but, well, I don't have my choice.

With taxes and insurance covered, we're paying about what we paid in D.C. for rent so we know it is well within our budget. Like I said, one compromise I required is that we buy way under our budget.



I am not sure where you are living but there is still risk of future price decline...most of OK should be fine but other parts of the country are still at risk...

I now live in North Carolina. I've taken houses that sold in the late '90s and appreciated them 3% per year and for the most part the resale value is right at that number. I think NC was fairly immune to the bubble. Certainly that doesn't mean we won't have further house declines but it does mean that housing prices are in line with historical norms.

D.C. on the other hand not only had a big bubble but it has hardly corrected. You couldn't give me $100k to buy a house there.

[pphilfran]

It looks to me you are trying to do the right thing...

You understand the costs..also the benefits and shortfalls...

Don't get in too big a hurry and keep socking away the money...

Good luck!

[Mjcpr]

...we're all counting on you.

[jkjsooner]

...we're all counting on you.

:-)

How did I turn this thread into being about me? I don't like that.

[pphilfran]

:-)

How did I turn this thread into being about me? I don't like that.

To answer that question we will need to ask a few questions about your mother...

[OUthunder]

"i chose principal".

what were other choices ??

escrow.

[OUthunder]

You have 20% equity...I wouldn't think the refinance would be a problem with that much equity so the lower appraisal really don't mean chit....

The refi isn't the problem at all. It's pretty much a done deal if I want to. My bitch is the appraisal.

What I was told today by an appraiser today, was that, our house is one of the larger homes in the hood. A house our size, is not selling right now. The comps were on houses between 2500-3000 sq/ft. So, I'm essentially being penalized for owning a larger house.

My bitch with the refi, is that they roll **** (closing costs) back into the back end of the loan. I don't want that amount to take away from the equity that I do have in the home. However, if I do refi, I get one month off from having a mortgage, plus I get the escrow back from the old loan. This is roughly 7k, to do whatever I want with. Plus I drop my APR and I save $400/month on the mortgage payment.

Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong....I don't know?

My dilemma is about the true size/value of my house. Of course, saving coinage is always the bottom line.

[pphilfran]

The refi isn't the problem at all. It's pretty much a done deal if I want to. My bitch is the appraisal.

What I was told today by an appraiser today, was that, my house is one of the largest in the hood. A house my size, is not selling right now. The comps were on houses between 2500-3000 sq/ft. So, I'm essentially being penalized for owning a larger house.

My bitch with the refi, is that they roll **** (closing costs) back into the back end of the loan. I don't want that amount to take away from the equity that I do have in the home. However, if I do refi, I get one month off from having a mortgage, plus I get the escrow back from the old loan. This is roughly 7k, to do whatever I want with. Plus I drop my APR and I save $400/month on the mortgage payment.

Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong....I don't know?

My dilemma is about the true size/value of my house. Of course, saving coinage is always the bottom line.

At the current appraisal if you roll in the closing costs does that put the loan into a PMI status? If not, then don't sweat the appraisal...you got the equity...in the long run it ain't gonna do chit...

You have to pay for the closing costs one way or another..out of pocket or back into the loan...

How long do you plan to say in the home...what is the payback for the expenses?

As far as the size of the house...you will probably get a different number when they appraise it for sale in 10 years...if it really bothers ya get your own guy and be there when he gets the measurements...

[2121Sooner]

What if the county came back and assessed your house at less than you thought it was worth and you paid less taxes.......would you be pissed off then?

If your appraisal came back with enough to get done what you needed to get done, then dont sweat it.......not a big deal.

[StoopTroup]

At the current appraisal if you roll in the closing costs does that put the loan into a PMI status?

You saying they can put more reviews that look for things that increase their risk on the mortage?

[pphilfran]

You saying they can put more reviews that look for things that increase their risk on the mortage?

I don't know what the hell I was saying....:)

[OUthunder]

I don't know what the hell I was saying....:)

Me either. I told them to do another appraisal but I'll go ahead and refi. I like cash up front even if it does go toward paying of a loan that I hate to owe on.

[StoopTroup]

I don't know what the hell I was saying....:)

LMAO.....

[Sooner_Bob]

My PMI was around $250 a month before I refied. I had them "get rid" of it and roll it into the interest rate so it would be tax deductable. So, that gave me $3000 that was now deductable. My house appraised for 126 per foot on 3800'. I gained about $30k in 2 years from what I paid.

You can do that? :confused:

[texaspokieokie]

We refied once. I wish I hadn't. We've got less time before it's paid off though

why do you wish you hadn't ??

[OutlandTrophy]

if you want to know with a 100% certainty what your house is worth you need to sell it. Until then it's just a guess.

You high rollers and your borrowing of money cracks me up!

[KuppiKunta]

What I was told today by an appraiser today, was that, my house is one of the largest in the hood. A house my size, is not selling right now. The comps were on houses between 2500-3000 sq/ft. So, I'm essentially being penalized for owning a larger house.



And there's your problem!!

First rule of RE.....Location, location, location.
Second rule of RE.....never buy the largest house in the neighborhood.

You are not being penalized for owning a larger house, but for owning a larger house in the wrong neighborhood. That exact house would be worth more if it were surrounded by 4500-5000 sq/ft homes.

[Boomer.....]

if you want to know with a 100% certainty what your house is worth you need to sell it. Until then it's just a guess.

You high rollers and your borrowing of money cracks me up!

Just because you got all high and mighty with Dave Ramsey, doesn't mean you need to preach it to everyone.

[OutlandTrophy]

does so!

[C&CDean]

"where the paid-off home mortgage is the new status symbol..."

If our government followed Ramsey's advice we'd be sitting pretty. Dude pretty much has it nailed.

[texaspokieokie]

"where the paid-off home mortgage is the new status symbol..."

If our government followed Ramsey's advice we'd be sitting pretty. Dude pretty much has it nailed.

Yep, too bad fox took him off the nightly show.

[OutlandTrophy]

Just because you got all high and mighty with Dave Ramsey, doesn't mean you need to preach it to everyone.

are you taking the viewpoint that as a general rule, having debt is better than not having debt?

[C&CDean]

Ramsey isn't so much about not having any debt, he's more about not having debt with interest, or living paycheck to paycheck. And home mortgages will eat you alive with interest.

[pphilfran]

are you taking the viewpoint that as a general rule, having debt is better than not having debt?

Not I...but at current rates you are basically getting long term money for free...

[OUthunder]

And there's your problem!!

First rule of RE.....Location, location, location.
Second rule of RE.....never buy the largest house in the neighborhood.

You are not being penalized for owning a larger house, but for owning a larger house in the wrong neighborhood. That exact house would be worth more if it were surrounded by 4500-5000 sq/ft homes.

Actually the house next door to me is 1000 sq/ft bigger than mine. The house behind me is 250 sg/ft bigger.

[C&CDean]

Not I...but at current rates you are basically getting long term money for free...

Nope. Those first several years of mortgage payments where 90+% of your payment is interest is hardly "free."

[Mjcpr]

Unfortunately, most of us cannot afford to pay cash for our homes and transportation. As long as you buy those within your means, preferrably at cheap interest rates and pay them off as soon as you can and don't incur a bunch of credit card debt, you're probably doing just fine.

[OutlandTrophy]

Ramsey says that the only debt that is remotely acceptable is a mortgage on your house, after you put down at least 20%.

1 - Emergency Fund of $1,000
2 - Pay off all consumer debt using debt snowball
3 - Fully funy emergency fund at 3-6 months worth of expenses
4 - fund retirement accounts at 15% of income
5 - fund your kids' college fund
6 - pay off house early
7- build wealth and give!

[OutlandTrophy]

Unfortunately, most of us cannot afford to pay cash for our homes and transportation. As long as you buy those within your means, preferrably at cheap interest rates and pay them off as soon as you can and don't incur a bunch of credit card debt, you're probably doing just fine.

but you can, people that make less than you do are able to do just that!!!!

If you finance something is it really within your means?

[Boomer.....]

are you taking the viewpoint that as a general rule, having debt is better than not having debt?

Of course it's not but almost nobody is able to pay cash for big expenses like cars or homes. Even Ramsey will tell you that a mortgage is an okay debt. I just think that his method of teaching is way too hardcore for most americans to live.

Does he really expect people to not eat out once or do anything for entertainment as long as they have debt?

[pphilfran]

Nope. Those first several years of mortgage payments where 90+% of your payment is interest is hardly "free."

Notice I said long term...after tax deductions you could be paying less than 4% on borrowed money...even in our terrible interest rate climate I could break even by getting a loan and then buy a 30 year bond at current rates at 4.75% (not that I would touch a 30 year bond in the current financial climate)...slap your money in some short term security and then when rates get up around 6 or 7% you could make money for most of the life of the loan...

If interest rates were going to drop like a rock it would be a different animal...

It won't be long until we see inflation at much higher levels and a 5% mortgage will look like a bargain...

[Boomer.....]

but you can, people that make less than you do are able to do just that!!!!

If you finance something is it really within your means?

Not when they are in their 20's, like in my case.

Most of his stories like this are couples in their 40's or 50's.

[Mjcpr]

but you can, people that make less than you do are able to do just that!!!!

If you finance something is it really within your means?

I don't know any of them and I'm pretty sure none of them work for my employer.

I believe in enjoying my life while I'm young enough to do so. Part of that enjoyment is having a nice house, a decent car and doing fun things. I bought a boat in 1999, financed it, paid what I could each month in order to pay it off early. I've enjoyed every minute I've ever spent on it and if I had waited until I could pay cash, I'd still be waiting.

I understand that if I could have no debt, that it would be preferrable to having debt. It is not, however, practical for most folks. I try to buy things I can afford and I don't incur credit card debt. That is what works for me.

[texaspokieokie]

but you can, people that make less than you do are able to do just that!!!!

If you finance something is it really within your means?

how many can pay cash for a house ??

[KuppiKunta]

Actually the house next door to me is 1000 sq/ft bigger than mine. The house behind me is 250 sg/ft bigger.

Doesn't matter, you already said it's one of the largest in the 'hood. Appraised value is based on comparable sales in your 'hood, with most of the other houses being smaller, it's going to hurt you. Now, if that house next door sold in the last 6 months, it could benefit you.

[OutlandTrophy]

Of course it's not but almost nobody is able to pay cash for big expenses like cars or homes. Even Ramsey will tell you that a mortgage is an okay debt. I just think that his method of teaching is way too hardcore for most americans to live.

Does he really expect people to not eat out once or do anything for entertainment as long as they have debt?

depends on how much they hate being in debt. If folks want to be loaded down with debt and worried about making it to the next paycheck then they should keep on doing what they are doing. If that's the lifestyle they choose to live.

If they get tired of that and want to get out of debt they can follow Dave's simple, common sense approach.

The borrower is slave to the lender. When you are in debt to another, you enter into a slave/master relationship with your creditor. (Proverbs 22:7)

[OutlandTrophy]

how many can pay cash for a house ??

I don't have an exact number for you but my brother and his wife just did. 35years old, 3 kids under 5.

How many people have the dicipline to pay cash for a house might have been a better way to phrase your question.

Why can't you pay cash for a house? What's so prohibitive about that? There are quite a few examples in Ramsey's books of folks that have done just that.

[jkjsooner]

"where the paid-off home mortgage is the new status symbol..."

If our government followed Ramsey's advice we'd be sitting pretty. Dude pretty much has it nailed.

If everybody followed Ramsey's advice we'd be in good shape. If we all had to pay cash for a house, many of us would be able to do so. The problem is when 99% of the people get loans, that pushes up the cost of home ownership to a point where few can possibly buy a house with cash before they're 50.

The exception of course is when someone made money off a house and either downsized or moved to a cheaper area. Obviously, this isn't a fair comparison as they wouldn't have had that first home if forced to pay cash.

In Oklahoma it's different as it is conceivable to amass $100k to $150k for a starter home. If most areas (and I'm not talking about California/New York) a starter home can be $300k or more. Unless you inherit a lot of money or have a really successful business, you're not accumulating that much money in 10 years (unless you raid your retirement savings). Even if you are a doctor or have a great job, you're probably not looking at a starter home anyway.

This is also an issue in with just about everything. Too easily available credit harms not only those who abuse it but also those who choose not to use credit at all. The harm is much less for those who are responsible but they are still competing for goods and services with those who are willing to get huge loans and/or run up lots of debt.

All that said, if Ramsey thinks one should never get a home loan then he's living in fantasy land. Not getting a home loan in the late '90s when real estate was very reasonably priced would have been a dumb decision. Luckily I didn't follow that advice and I got the loan and made at least a little from the sell of that house. In retrospect had I known the bubble was going to get as big as it did, I could have held onto the house a made a lot more but circumstances made it the right time to sell.

[Position Limit]

real estate pricing is total bullsh*t. what should be 95% intrinsic value, unless you live on an island or the coast, gets totally skewed because of the availability of credit. by hey, credit is the life blood of this great country. value be damned!!!

[stoops the eternal pimp]

My house isn't as nice as what anybody is posting in here on, but its the next step in the plan...

The only thing I owe on it is the 10k I borrowed against my CD and it will be paid off first part of next year...In our area, it will sell in the 90-100k range, and I will take that and apply it to the next one...we have 2 more homes in the plan but by then, we should have the cash to build the home we want to grow old in...

Im going by the plan my dad followed, and he lives on a property thats work about 400k that he paid cash for..I won't have that much, but it'll be good enough for me.

[OutlandTrophy]

was is a Billy Gillman or Chris Gaines CD that you borrowed against?

[WichitaSooner]

A few years ago I could have put down 25% but, well, my (at the time future) wife wasn't very good with money long before I met her. Paying off her debt and our wedding expenses pretty much destroyed my savings.

I'm still a little bitter about that (the debt part not the wedding expenses.) I need to get over it though...

Must be good poooooon.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

was is a Billy Gillman or Chris Gaines CD that you borrowed against?

It was a Best of Duran Duran

[Mjcpr]

Why can't you pay cash for a house? What's so prohibitive about that? There are quite a few examples in Ramsey's books of folks that have done just that.

How long would it take somebody making $40,000 a year to save up even $100k to pay case for their first home? However many years that is, they will be renting property from somebody and gaining no equity at all. If you borrow the money for a home a cheap interest rate then you are at least building some equity for the future even if that equity is in small bites on the front end of the loan.

That's what I did anyway, then took the equity that I built and applied it to an upgrade in homes along with the equity that was built by the appreciation in the property value.

[OUthunder]

how many can pay cash for a house ??

That a very broad question. It really depends on the cost of the home.

[OutlandTrophy]

How long would it take somebody making $40,000 a year to save up even $100k to pay case for their first home? However many years that is, they will be renting property from somebody and gaining no equity at all. If you borrow the money for a home a cheap interest rate then you are at least building some equity for the future even if that equity is in small bites on the front end of the loan.

That's what I did anyway, then took the equity that I built and applied it to an upgrade in homes along with the equity that was built by the appreciation in the property value.

5-7 years?

[OutlandTrophy]

but don't get caught up on paying cash for a first house. Dave doesn't have that big of an issue with having a mortgage. It can be done though.

[Mjcpr]

5-7 years?

I'm sure there is somebody out there that could do this but I couldn't have.


but don't get caught up on paying cash for a first house. Dave doesn't have that big of an issue with having a mortgage. It can be done though.

Well, I'm grateful he approves of my mortgage. :D

[OutlandTrophy]

:D

[Sooner_Bob]

Bad debt versus good debt . . . that's pretty much what it all boils down to IMO.

House = good debt

credit cards = bad debt

[Mjcpr]

Bad debt versus good debt . . . that's pretty much what it all boils down to IMO.

House = good debt

credit cards = bad debt

I agree.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I agree with 1tc

[stoops the eternal pimp]

and bob

[stoops the eternal pimp]

and mjcpr

[stoops the eternal pimp]

and thunder

[Boomer.....]

but not tator

[sooner_born_1960]

I agree with 1tc
Who?

[OutlandTrophy]

Who?

OutlandTrophy, keep up :P

[sooner_born_1960]

What? Since when?

[OutlandTrophy]

since Phil won't adjust the settings on my 1TC account. He has it so when logged in as 1TC I can't see any of the forums, threads nor posts. Amnesty! F*CK YEAH!!!

[sooner_born_1960]

So, he's just singling you out for this special treatment?

[OutlandTrophy]

Well, he says that there is nothing wrong with the setting and that I should be able to see and post as 1TC.

[sooner_born_1960]

Sounds like he needs Norm or Beano to take a look at it.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I agree with Phil

[sooner_born_1960]

Or, he isn't being honest.

[OutlandTrophy]

but he insists that nothing is wrong.

oh well!

[Veritas]

I'm a big fan of Dave Ramsey's stuff. His advice changed my life for the better and we've run our business to great profitability avoiding debt as though it's the black plague. As a result I have banks beating down my doors wanting to lend me money, and I get the satisfaction of telling them to go **** themselves.

That said, paying cash for a house is a real dumb idea because it makes your most liquid asset, cash, pretty damn illiquid. Dave's whole ethos is making decisions that give you freedom and flexibility. I'd argue that burying a large percentage of your liquid assets into an illiquid asset is counter to the ideaology.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I disagree with Veritas

[OutlandTrophy]

I will agree with Veritas if he will fix 1TC's account settings.

[Veritas]

I disagree with Veritas
You smell like a dirty diaper.

[Veritas]

I will agree with Veritas if he will fix 1TC's account settings.
Don't have that sorta powers...I'm a mere mod not an admin. Sorry man.

[Boomer.....]

I bet you could pull the right strings though.

[OutlandTrophy]

this thread sure was a lot of posts just so Thunder could tell us how big and how much his house cost!

[stoops the eternal pimp]

You smell like a dirty diaper.

after that bomb I just dropped, thats bound to happen

[jkjsooner]

Ramsey isn't so much about not having any debt, he's more about not having debt with interest, or living paycheck to paycheck. And home mortgages will eat you alive with interest.

How do you have debt without interest? If you do, can you give me your lender's name?

If you buy at the right time (emphasis here), the interest on a loan is no more than the cost to rent the same house. Heck, there are times where the entire monthy bill is little or no more than the cost to rent the same house. When I bought a house in the late '90s, I paid pretty close to what I was paying for rent and that was a loan with PMI.

I hate it when real estate agents use phrases like, "You are throwing money away by renting." That does not at all tell the story as interest, taxes, and insurances is also lost money. On the other hand, by saying a mortgage will "eat you alive" you're also failing to look at all sides of the equation.

[jkjsooner]

depends on how much they hate being in debt. If folks want to be loaded down with debt and worried about making it to the next paycheck then they should keep on doing what they are doing. If that's the lifestyle they choose to live.

If they get tired of that and want to get out of debt they can follow Dave's simple, common sense approach.

The borrower is slave to the lender. When you are in debt to another, you enter into a slave/master relationship with your creditor. (Proverbs 22:7)


I hate hate hate debt. When I had a small balance on my credit card (well over 10 years ago) I hated it. I wanted nothing more than to pay it off and I even went without heat one winter to lower my costs so I could pay it off.

But, man, a mortgage is a totally different ballgame.

[Veritas]

I hate it when real estate agents use phrases like, "You are throwing money away by renting."
I've got a spreadsheet somewhere that does a ridiculously detail comparison of renting (and investing the diff) vs buying. Buying is almost never financially advantageous unless you buy at least 25% back of the market *and* time your purchase during one of the down cycles.

[Boomer.....]

I've made money on both of my previous homes. The first was actually a townhome and I doubled my money. The second was a house and I sold during the housing crisis and still made a little. I only owned each home for around 3 years. If you rent, you are not going to get as big/nice of a place for the same amount of money and you get nothing when you move out except maybe a bill for damages. I understand that homes can devalue but it's pretty safe in Oklahoma.

[jkjsooner]

Must be good poooooon.

You know, I love her and she's a great woman and now mother.

The ironic thing, though, is that if I would not have had some money saved up, her financial situation would have killed our relationship simply because I wouldn't have been able to afford to pursue it.

[OutlandTrophy]

I've made money on both of my previous homes. The first was actually a townhome and I doubled my money. The second was a house and I sold during the housing crisis and still made a little. I only owned each home for around 3 years. If you rent, you are not going to get as big/nice of a place for the same amount of money and you get nothing when you move out except maybe a bill for damages. I understand that homes can devalue but it's pretty safe in Oklahoma.

I'm replacing my outside unit to the AC. It sure would be nice if someone would buy it for me.

[jkjsooner]

I've got a spreadsheet somewhere that does a ridiculously detail comparison of renting (and investing the diff) vs buying. Buying is almost never financially advantageous unless you buy at least 25% back of the market *and* time your purchase during one of the down cycles.

I don't buy this at all. I'd say buying is almost always advantageous as long as you are not buying in a bubble market during a bubble.


Let's say you buy a house in a normal market. Let's say that house appreciates at the inflation rate. In 25 or so years that house has doubled in value. Also in 25 years your payment is still what you paid 25 years before (increased taxes aside).

Now let's take the rent scenario. In 25 years you are paying twice more for rent than you're paying today. You have not locked in any price. Even if the cost to rent a house initially was quite a bit less than the cost to own, by this point the opposite is true (unless of course you bought when the rent/mortgage ratio was way too low which implies you bought in a bubble).

Even using time valued analysis, I can't see how renting long term is ever the right solution. Renting to wait out a bubble? Yep, that's imperitive.


All that said, we do have an issue with baby boomers. Just as they may threaten the stock market, they may also threaten the real estate market. That's another factor to consider but it's hard to predict and you can't refuse to live your life because baby boomers downsizing and/or dying might wreak havoc on your investments.

[Boomer.....]

I'm replacing my outside unit to the AC. It sure would be nice if someone would buy it for me.

I know that you haven't had your house long. Why not get a home warranty? They're around $400 and last a year. But of course you can afford to pay cash for everything.

[OutlandTrophy]

Why would I get a home warranty?

I would have paid roughly $1200 for a home warranty that would have sent out some crappy shady unqualified contractor to do the work after fighting them for the next 3 months.

Or I can make a phone call and get a quote from a company I know and trust then ask how much if I pay in Benjamins and I get new lower numbers and will have a new outside unit by Saturday.

[OutlandTrophy]

now, I don't get to eat at Charleston's every night of the week but in not doing so it enables me to pay cash for home repairs.

My wife has 170k+ miles on her car and I have 140k+ on my truck. That's why we can pay cash for an outside unit.

Are you really going to argue that payments on new cars and placing the AC unit on a credit card is a better way to go about it?

[Boomer.....]

Because they normally cost around $400 and they come in handy when buying a used house where the previous owner could have rigged something or not disclosed everything during the sale and the inspector might not have caught it.

I had an entire heat and air system replaced for free.

[Boomer.....]

Both of our cars are paid off and mine had 155K miles.

[OutlandTrophy]

I guess I just don't understand why you're so angry that I don't like to carry any debt. It's weird.

[Boomer.....]

I'm not at all mad, in fact I think it's great. It's almost like you were coming at me because I have made money from buying homes instead of renting.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

He was coming at you

[OutlandTrophy]

I don't know where you are coming from. Post 116 shows you directly asking me a question specifically about Dave Ramsey. I had not said a word to you up to that point.

I just looked and you hadn't even posted in this thread until 116. sheesh

[Boomer.....]

I was talking about this.

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3173465&postcount=178

Nevermind.

[OutlandTrophy]

I was just pointing out one of the benefits to renting.

[Mjcpr]

I wish it had been Dave Ramsey that Deaner beat up.

[Tiptonsooner]

Dave would clean Dean's plow.

Clean.

his.

plow.

[Sooner_Bob]

I wish it had been Dave Ramsey that Deaner beat up.

:gary:

[C&CDean]

Dean Who?

[2121Sooner]

Dave Ramsey has some good info but he has developed a little bit of a cult following. Seems like anyone that starts listening to him automatically wants you to because they think that since they were financial numbnuts everyone else is