NFL Lockout Now Underway

[sooner59]

Manning, Brady, etc. suing the owners in federal court. The players associate is no long representing players in CBA talks. The lockout is official. Possible lost season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6205936


WASHINGTON -- Unable to decide how to divvy up $9 billion a year, NFL owners and players put the country's most popular sport in limbo Friday by breaking off labor negotiations hours before their contract expired.

The union decertified, and 10 players, including MVP quarterbacks Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, sued the owners in federal court, putting the NFL on a path to its first work stoppage since 1987.

The NFL will announce a lockout, starting at midnight Friday, league sources told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter.

Despite two extensions to the collective bargaining agreement during 16 days of talks overseen by a federal mediator -- and previous months of stop-and-start negotiating -- the sides could not agree on a new deal. The league said it hadn't decided as of Friday evening whether to lock out the players, who, meanwhile, went to court to request an injunction to block such a move.

More From ESPN.com

NFL Anger and disappointment were the predominant emotions throughout the football world and beyond after the NFL players' union decertified Friday, hours before the expiration of their collective bargaining agreement with the league. Story

Reilly Even if the NFL season never happens, there still will be winners and losers, writes Rick Reilly. Blog

Munson The NFL's labor impasse with its players and a potential lockout is the result of long-term strategic planning by the team owners and their commissioner, writes Lester Munson. Column

NFLPA NFLPA executive George Atallah breaks down how the players and the union view the crucial talks. Story

• PDF: The lawsuit
• Impact: Team by team
• Munson: Glossary & who's who
• Aiello: Outline of league's problems
• NFL labor history since 1968
• NFL Labor: Topics page

"The parties have not achieved an overall agreement, nor have they been able to resolve the strongly held competing positions that separated them on core issues," mediator George Cohen said. "No useful purpose would be served by requesting the parties to continue the mediation process at this time."

By dissolving and announcing it no longer represents the players in collective bargaining, the union cleared the way for class-action lawsuits against the NFL, which opted out of the CBA in 2008. The antitrust suit -- forever to be known as Brady et al vs. National Football League et al -- attacked the league's policies on the draft, salary cap and free-agent restrictions such as franchise-player tags.

Invoking the Sherman Act, a federal antitrust statute from 1890 that limits monopolies and restrictions on commerce, the players are seeking triple the amount of damages they've incurred. That means the stakes here could be in the hundreds of millions.

It could take a month for there to be a ruling on the union's injunction request, and antitrust judgments should take longer.

The court fights eventually could threaten the 2011 season for a league whose past two Super Bowls rank as the two most-watched programs in U.S. television history. The last time NFL games were lost to a work stoppage came when the players struck 24 years ago, leading to games with replacement players.

The CBA originally was due to expire last week, then was extended twice, in hopes that the sides could find common ground on the key issues: how to divide more than $9 billion in annual revenues, and how much financial information the league would be willing to turn over.

In the end, it appeared the sides were about $185 million per year apart on how much money owners would get up front during the new collective bargaining agreement -- well down from the $1 billion that separated them for so long. The union refused to budge any further without getting detailed financial information for each team.

"I would dare any one of you to pull out any economic indicator that would suggest that the National Football League is falling on hard times," NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith said. "The last 14 days, the National Football League has said, 'Trust us.' But when it came time for verification, they told us it was none of our business."

It all set the stage for a lengthy court fight that eventually could threaten the 2011 season. The last work stoppage came when the players struck 24 years ago, leading to games with replacement players.

"We remain committed to collective bargaining and the federal mediation process until an agreement is reached, and call on the union to return to negotiations immediately," NFL commissioner Roger Goodell said in a letter to fans posted on NFL.com Friday evening. "NFL players, clubs, and fans want an agreement. The only place it can be reached is at the bargaining table."

Even though the NFL is early in its offseason -- and the regular season is six months away -- this is hardly a complete down time. Free agency usually begins in March, and there are hundreds of free agents now in limbo. Also this month, under a regular schedule, offseason workouts would start, and the owners meet to establish rules changes.

Plus, March and early April are when many sponsors and corporate partners renew their deals with the NFL, part of why the league says hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue are going to be lost now.

"This obviously is a very disappointing day for all of us. I've been here for the better part of two weeks now, and essentially ... the union's position on the core economic issues has not changed one iota," New York Giants owner John Mara said. "One thing that became painfully apparent to me during this period was that their objective was to go the litigation route."

Mike and Mike in the Morning

ESPN NFL business analyst Andrew Brandt says the owners and players can't reach a deal because the relationship between commissioner Roger Goodell and NFLPA executive director DeMaurice Smith is rocky at best.

More Podcasts »

Just after the players' union decertified, Brady, Manning, Drew Brees and seven other players filed suit against the NFL in U.S. District Court, seeking class-action status. They also filed a request for an injunction that would keep the NFL and the teams from engaging in a lockout.

The players allege in the lawsuit that the organizations conspired to deny the players' ability to market their services, "through a patently unlawful group boycott and price-fixing arrangement or, in the alternative, a unilaterally imposed set of anticompetitive restrictions on player movement, free agency, and competitive market freedom."

The collective bargaining agreement with the league expires at the end of Friday.

The case was assigned Friday afternoon to U.S. District judge Patrick Schiltz, not his colleague David Doty, who has overseen NFL labor matters since the early 1990s and has several times ruled in favor of the players. The lawsuit still could end up in front of Doty. New cases are randomly assigned to judges when they're filed, but they are sometimes reassigned to others on the bench with expertise in a certain issue.

Doty, who helped engineer the initial agreement between owners and players that opened the doors to free agency, issued a ruling last week that backed the NFLPA in a dispute over $4 billion in TV revenue that players argue was illegally collected by the owners as a war chest to survive a work stoppage.

The league has tried in the past to remove Doty from the case, alleging bias toward the players.

Also involved in bringing the lawsuit: San Diego receiver Vincent Jackson, Minnesota linebacker Ben Leber and defensive end Brian Robison, New England guard Logan Mankins, New York Giants defensive end Osi Umenyiora, Kansas City linebacker Mike Vrabel, and Texas A&M linebacker Von Miller, who is entered in this year's draft.

The NFLPA also decertified in 1989. Antitrust lawsuits by players led to a new CBA in 1993 that included free agency, and the union formed again that year.

"I will tell you this: Any business where two partners don't trust each other, any business where one party says, 'You need to do X, Y and Z because I told you,' is a business that is not only not run well, it is a business that can never be as successful as it can be," Smith said.

At 4:45 p.m., Smith and the union's negotiators left. About 15 minutes later, the union decertified.

"No one is happy where we are now," NFL lead negotiator Jeff Pash said. "I think we know where the commitment was. It was a commitment to litigate all along."

A league statement added: "The union left a very good deal on the table."

The public acrimony that arose Thursday night seeped into Friday.

After Pash spoke, outside union lawyer Jim Quinn said: "I hate to say this, but he has not told the truth to our players or our fans. He has, in a word, lied to them about what happened today and what's happened over the last two weeks and the last two years."

“

Goodell NFL players, clubs, and fans want an agreement. The only place it can be reached is at the bargaining table.
” -- Roger Goodell

The NFL said its offer included splitting the difference in the dispute over how much money owners should be given off the top of the league's revenues. Under the expiring CBA, the owners immediately got about $1 billion before dividing the remainder with the players; the owners originally were asking to roughly double that by getting an additional $1 billion up front.

The NFL released the rest of what it described as a summary of its proposal to the union:

• An entry-level compensation system based on the union's "rookie cap" proposal, rather than the wage scale proposed by the clubs. Under the NFL proposal, players drafted in rounds 2-7 would be paid the same or more than they are paid today. Savings from the first round would be reallocated to veteran players and benefits.

• A guarantee of up to $1 million of a player's salary for the contract year after his injury the first time that the clubs have offered a standard multiyear injury guarantee.

• Immediate implementation of changes to promote player health and safety by: reducing the offseason program by five weeks, reducing OTAs (organized team activities) from 14 to 10 and limiting on-field practice time and contact; limiting full-contact practices in the preseason and regular season; and increasing number of days off for players.

• Commit that any change to an 18-game season will be made only by agreement and that the 2011 and 2012 seasons will be played under the current 16-game format.

• Financial disclosure of audited league and club profitability information that is not even shared with the NFL clubs. That was proposed by the NFL this week, and rejected by the union, which began insisting in May 2009 for a complete look at the books of all 32 clubs.

• Owner funding of $82 million in 2011-12 to support additional benefits to former players, which would increase retirement benefits for more than 2,000 former players by nearly 60 percent.

• Offer current players the opportunity to remain in the player medical plan for life.

• Third-party arbitration for appeals in the drug and steroid programs.

• Improvements in the Mackey plan (designed for players suffering from dementia and other brain-related problems), disability plan and degree-completion bonus program.

• A per-club cash minimum spend of 90 percent of the salary cap over three seasons.

The players' union immediately shut down its websites, NFLPA.org and NFLPlayers.com. A search for NFLPA.org yielded this message: "Error 404: Football Not Found. Please be patient as we work on resolving this. We are sorry for the inconvenience."

When Goodell, Pash, and owners Jerry Jones of the Cowboys, Jerry Richardson of the Panthers and John Mara of the Giants emerged from Cohen's office shortly after 5 p.m., they sounded hopeful that negotiations would soon resume.

"We are prepared to come back here any time the union is ready to come back here," Pash said.

[Leroy Lizard]

Wisconsin teachers are one thing. But now this is getting serious.



:D

[Blue]

Greedy A-holes. Both sides have a beef, but IMO, They are all overpaid.

[sooner59]

Greedy A-holes.

You talkin about the players or the owners?

Nevermind, you fixed it.

[Blue]

You talkin about the players or the owners?

Nevermind, you fixed it.

I would say mostly the owners. But I'm not familiar with the details.

We all know its a greed driven, messed up business, but they should have found a way not to make it obvious.

IMO, fantasy football saved the NFL and is currently saving MLB and the NBA. Many fans came back just for that. So the fans are what makes it go round. sad thing is we will never just "not show up or not tune in."

[sooner59]

Yeah, I put it more on the owners for one reason. I realize that many of the players are over paid, but its because they are making the owners even more over paid and the owners want to keep them. However, the average NFL player doesn't make it longer than 2-3 years at low salaries comparatively. They put outside careers aside and focus their livelihood on playing football, even if only temporary. And many live with serious medical conditions for the rest of their lives....sometimes shortened lives because of it. And the owners are in the luxury suites banking on people putting their bodies and lives on the line. I realize that it takes a good business person to run a team and make it work. But compared to what the owners profit, players could get paid more. Look at NBA and MLB players making $20M+ per year, while not having to be put through the physical beating that NFL players are put through. Comparatively speaking, with the NFL being the most popular sport in the U.S., and the beating they go through, the players should be by far the best paid in sports, IMO.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I could care less. I don't watch 'em and I don't spend bucks for them or on them. All are A--holes. Would be nice to see NCAA football as the only game in town next fall.

[sooner59]

Oh I have no problem with NCAA football being front and center for an entire season while the Sooners dominate the headlines. :D

[Blue]

Oh I have no problem with NCAA football being front and center for an entire season while the Sooners dominate the headlines. :D

I'll miss FF, but I like THIS^^^.

[Peach Fuzz]

nvm...

[101sooner]

Has no impact on my life.

[Flagstaffsooner]

I could care less. I don't watch 'em and I don't spend bucks for them or on them. All are A--holes. Would be nice to see NCAA football as the only game in town next fall.Hell,yes! The nfl is not real football. It is a contrived business. The players and owners can rot in hell for all I care.

[sooner59]

Hell,yes! The nfl is not real football. It is a contrived business. The players and owners can rot in hell for all I care.

Sam Bradford gives cold stare...:D

http://photos.upi.com/slideshow/lbox/385347fd117a854861f822e2a373ee35/NFL-Draft.jpg

[Flagstaffsooner]

Sammy can survive very well without the nfl.

[Leroy Lizard]

The owners of NFL teams are not in the charity business and are under no obligation to pay players more money. They take their course of action depending on whether they think it is profitable to do so. If you can't handle that, then don't watch pro sports. (And frankly, I find the whole notion of professional sports a silly gimmick anyway.)

[Blue]

The owners of NFL teams are not in the charity business and are under no obligation to pay players more money. They take their course of action depending on whether they think it is profitable to do so. If you can't handle that, then don't watch pro sports. (And frankly, I find the whole notion of professional sports a silly gimmick anyway.)

And the players aren't under any obligation to continue to make owners billionaires. So there we are.

[sooner59]

Without the players, the owners are looking for jobs.

[colinreturn]

I have been keeping up pretty well with this. but one thing i cant figure is what happens to the draft? does it just not happen without a new cba?

[sooner59]

I'm ok with this guy losing a paycheck or two.

http://img8.uploadhouse.com/fileuploads/8526/85266383674d7399bedf5db03e1a94ca84d48e9.jpg (http://www.uploadhouse.com/viewfile.php?id=8526638&showlnk=0)

[Leroy Lizard]

And the players aren't under any obligation to continue to make owners billionaires. So there we are.

You's gots it.

[Leroy Lizard]

Without the players, the owners are looking for jobs.

They already have jobs. Almost all of these guys are millionaires from their other occupations.

Frankly, who are we to judge which side is right or wrong in this dispute?

[Flagstaffsooner]

They already have jobs. Almost all of these guys are millionaires from their other occupations.

Frankly, who are we to judge which side is right or wrong in this dispute?Certainly not you. Let the nfl die and go away.

[sooner59]

I have my opinion. That is that. And yeah they have jobs. But without the Dallas Cowboys playing football, do you think Jerry Jones is fine and dandy? Hell no. That is his life. Owning an NFL team is a huge commitment.

[Curly Bill]

Without the players, the owners are looking for jobs.

:confused:

Huh? The owners are already rich. That's what allows them to buy football franchises. If we don't play football this year, or in the next 50 years I doubt Jerry Jones will be looking for a job.

[Curly Bill]

Oh! and I don't care if the NFL goes away forever.

[Flagstaffsooner]

Oh! and I don't care if the NFL goes away forever.
No sweat off my balls either. The greed on both sides is outrageous.

[Curly Bill]

That, and I just don't care for the No Fun League.

[Flagstaffsooner]

That, and I just don't care for the No Fun League.FIFY National Financial League;)

[StoopTroup]

:confused:

Huh? The owners are already rich. That's what allows them to buy football franchises. If we don't play football this year, or in the next 50 years I doubt Jerry Jones will be looking for a job.

Chris Rock explained this very well in one of his stand ups.

Peyton and Brady are rich. The NFL Owners who write their checks? They are wealthy.

Wealthy always is going to win in this Country especially with the current climate of attitudes against Unions. What's amazing is when folks side with the Players so they can get their grease paint, wigs and tailgate stuff out but bash a middle class family for being a part of a Union.

Our Country is being played like a rusty fiddle with two strings and an old saw blade.

[auto]

Awesome, hate the No Fun League. Never watch a game, could care less. Now maybe they could move some College games to Sunday.

[boomersooner28]

No NFL means more people watching college football! We will be loaded so maybe we can make some people around the country root for the Sooners.

[Flagstaffsooner]

We will be loaded:eddie:

[StoopTroup]

Awesome, hate the No Fun League. Never watch a game, could care less. Now maybe they could move some College games to Sunday.

I've felt that way for a longtime too, however...if you think about the long term effects....

What might happen is that kids who go to School to play College Football and live a dream beyond that which currently is the NFL...they then have a different incentive to play like they do now. If you take away peoples dreams, you change the way they think about College. Maybe it would be a good thing thing, maybe it wouldn't. I suspect they'd want to get paid to play College and for a time College ball would suffer too. At some point we have to decide what we all think is best. I just have a feeling it won't be long until your dream of watching College Games on Sunday won't last long.

[Soonerjeepman]

Greedy A-holes. Both sides have a beef, but IMO, They are all overpaid.

being a teacher...got to agree...

oh and in Wisc it's not just teachers...in fact it's all state employees...and before ya bust my balls...I don't belong to NEA (the union)..

[OU_Sooners75]

I think the fans need to do a lookout and make both parties realize how ****ing lucky they have it!

Without Fans paying for merchandise, tickets, concessions...these damn owners and players would not have their salaries!

[StoopTroup]

What will the cheerleaders do?

[texaspokieokie]

What will the cheerleaders do?

lap dances

[StoopTroup]

Get your grease paint on fellas!

[Radar's Left Hand]

The owners should bring in scabs and be done with it. Any player wanting to cross the picket line is welcome to come back at anytime. Draft and play on. In 5 years no one will care about the guys that didn't come back.

This matters to me because I want FX's The League to have a show next fall. :)

[sooner518]

i watch the NFL but I dont really care about it that much. if it went away for a year or two, I dont think I would miss it that much.

I am against the owners almost solely because they had a CBA and the owners decided to kill it. plus, the fact the owners wont open their books to the players just says to me that the owners are full of ****. if theyre making such small margins, open your books and show them proof.

no one believes the owners arent making ****-tons of money.

[Leroy Lizard]

Certainly not you. Let the nfl die and go away.

WTF is that all about? :confused:

[texaspokieokie]

The owners should bring in scabs and be done with it. Any player wanting to cross the picket line is welcome to come back at anytime. Draft and play on. In 5 years no one will care about the guys that didn't come back.

This matters to me because I want FX's The League to have a show next fall. :)

this ain't a strike, as you know it's a "lockout",initiated by owners.
the players (not the scabs) probably couldn't play if they wanted.

[Leroy Lizard]

I have my opinion. That is that. And yeah they have jobs. But without the Dallas Cowboys playing football, do you think Jerry Jones is fine and dandy? Hell no. That is his life. Owning an NFL team is a huge commitment.

It's a hobby. Jerry Jones was fabulously wealthy long before he became owner of the Dallas Cowboys.

[Leroy Lizard]

Chris Rock explained this very well in one of his stand ups.

Peyton and Brady are rich. The NFL Owners who write their checks? They are wealthy.

Wow, that really clears things up.


Wealthy always is going to win in this Country especially with the current climate of attitudes against Unions. What's amazing is when folks side with the Players so they can get their grease paint, wigs and tailgate stuff out but bash a middle class family for being a part of a Union.

Wow, you really have this class warfare thing down, don't you? Even in situations where one millionaire is pitted against another millionaire, you find a way to paint the dispute as pauper versus land baron.


Our Country is being played like a rusty fiddle with two strings and an old saw blade.

Your quote plays like a rusty fiddle with two strings.

[Leroy Lizard]

lap dances

Actually, that's probably true.

[Leroy Lizard]

I am against the owners almost solely because they had a CBA and the owners decided to kill it. plus, the fact the owners wont open their books to the players just says to me that the owners are full of ****. if theyre making such small margins, open your books and show them proof.

It's a private business! Players have no right to see the owners' books. And it makes zero (ZERO) difference how much of a profit margin the owners make. This isn't North Korea. In this company, you make what you negotiate. If you don't like it, take employment somewhere else.

[oumartin]

Time to dust off the ole' cleats and update my 40 times.

[bluedogok]

:confused:

Huh? The owners are already rich. That's what allows them to buy football franchises. If we don't play football this year, or in the next 50 years I doubt Jerry Jones will be looking for a job.

It's a hobby. Jerry Jones was fabulously wealthy long before he became owner of the Dallas Cowboys.
Not really, Jerry Jones sold his natural gas business to buy the Cowboys and got loans to cover the rest, it is his only business which is a rarity among the owners. It was also why he rankled a bunch of the old guard owners when he came into the league, the Cowboys was his business and he needed to make money with it, it wasn't a toy to play with like many of the other owners. If the league has a significant work stoppage it will hit Jones hard, he has $850 million worth of debt to carry on Jerryworld so he will have to find other events to service that debt.


i watch the NFL but I dont really care about it that much. if it went away for a year or two, I dont think I would miss it that much.

I am against the owners almost solely because they had a CBA and the owners decided to kill it. plus, the fact the owners wont open their books to the players just says to me that the owners are full of ****. if theyre making such small margins, open your books and show them proof.

no one believes the owners arent making ****-tons of money.
The CBA was set to expire this year whether the owners voided the last year or not so no matter what the owners would have decided they were headed for this showdown anyway.

If the NFL didn't exist as a lure to college football players, you would probably find the elite athletes headed to other, more lucrative sports. For most of them the lure of big money in the NFL is why they play football in the first place, very few at that level play for the love of the game. If baseball or basketball gave them a better opportunity then that is more than likely where they would be and not playing college football. College football needs the NFL a lot more than most people think. Unlike baseball and in some extent college basketball, college football is the minor league feeder system to the NFL. They need each other to be healthy to thrive.

[agoo758]

Frankly, who are we to judge which side is right or wrong in this dispute?

In case you havn't noticed, we the fans pay all of the NFL's bills, so I think it is reasonable that we have a say, and by the way, I support the side who DOESN'T want the NFL season to be extended to 324585293 games.

[StoopTroup]

Time to dust off the ole' cleats and update my 40 times.

Probably best to start with your 5 or 10 times

http://nbcprofootballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/050226_clarett_vlg_5p.widec.jpg

[SoCal]

Without the players, the owners are looking for jobs.

I don't think so...

[Harry Beanbag]

Without the players, the owners are looking for jobs.


No. Without the owners, nearly all the players would be flipping burgers, digging ditches, or in prison.

[JLEW1818]

No. Without the owners, nearly all the players would be flipping burgers, digging ditches, or in prison.

:pop:

[BoulderSooner79]

...
If the NFL didn't exist as a lure to college football players, you would probably find the elite athletes headed to other, more lucrative sports. For most of them the lure of big money in the NFL is why they play football in the first place, very few at that level play for the love of the game. If baseball or basketball gave them a better opportunity then that is more than likely where they would be and not playing college football. College football needs the NFL a lot more than most people think. Unlike baseball and in some extent college basketball, college football is the minor league feeder system to the NFL. They need each other to be healthy to thrive.

Probably depends on your definition of healthy and it certainly would change. I disagree that many of the elite athletes could make it in other sports as baseball and basketball are already extremely competitive. Some certainly could, but I'm talking percentages here. The level of play would fall, no doubt, and coaches wouldn't pull down $5m/yr. But big time programs wouldn't drop all the way down to ivy league level as too many players still play for love of the game. Some fans would probably like it better. But this is all hypothetical - the NFL money machine won't go away for long.

[oumartin]

No. Without the owners, nearly all the players would be flipping burgers, digging ditches, or in prison.


I vote for prison, cept former sooners.

I hear Tebow might ascend back up into heaven

[webfoot]

It's a private business!

Does that include the Packers?

[sooner59]

It's a hobby. Jerry Jones was fabulously wealthy long before he became owner of the Dallas Cowboys.

Do you remember how much of Jerry's own money was put up for that stadium? Yeah he was rich before owning the Cowboys, but if you think he views it as a hobby you are beyond delusional.

[pphilfran]

Yeah, I put it more on the owners for one reason. I realize that many of the players are over paid, but its because they are making the owners even more over paid and the owners want to keep them. However, the average NFL player doesn't make it longer than 2-3 years at low salaries comparatively. They put outside careers aside and focus their livelihood on playing football, even if only temporary. And many live with serious medical conditions for the rest of their lives....sometimes shortened lives because of it. And the owners are in the luxury suites banking on people putting their bodies and lives on the line. I realize that it takes a good business person to run a team and make it work. But compared to what the owners profit, players could get paid more. Look at NBA and MLB players making $20M+ per year, while not having to be put through the physical beating that NFL players are put through. Comparatively speaking, with the NFL being the most popular sport in the U.S., and the beating they go through, the players should be by far the best paid in sports, IMO.

How much money have the players put into the team?

How much money have the owner groups put into the team?

Jerry Jones bought the 'Boys' for a 140 million...the franchise is now worth 1.8 billion....

If YOU had a piece of property that was worth 1.8 billion how much profit would you require each and every year?

The players know what they are getting into when they sign a contract....they know of possible future medical issues...if they play at league minimum for three years they will pull in a million...many people don't make a million in a lifetime...if their NFL career falls short then they can fall back on the degree they got from the college, if they were smart enough to get one...

I can see the players not wanting an 18 game schedule...

A couple of offers the union turned down...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-nfllabor-nflproposal

A per-club cash minimum spend of 90 percent of the salary cap over three seasons.

The owners offered 161 million dollar salary cap per team...(that can make a hell of a lot of millionaires)...on average, 3 mill a year per player...I would find that acceptable...

Offer current players the opportunity to remain in the player medical plan for life.

Both sides are greedy pricks...but if I were an owner I would tell the players to go play in Canada...

[pphilfran]

The REAL fools are the fans that pay hundreds of dollars for a seat and finance the outrageous salaries and owner profits that we now bitch about...

And yes, I happen to be one of those REAL fools...

[picasso]

Chris Rock explained this very well in one of his stand ups.

Peyton and Brady are rich. The NFL Owners who write their checks? They are wealthy.

Wealthy always is going to win in this Country especially with the current climate of attitudes against Unions. What's amazing is when folks side with the Players so they can get their grease paint, wigs and tailgate stuff out but bash a middle class family for being a part of a Union.

Our Country is being played like a rusty fiddle with two strings and an old saw blade.

Yeah because unions aren't corrupt or anything.

[sooner59]

I'll watch it on tv if its on, but I would hands down rather watch college football. More passion, IMO.

[OUthunder]

Greedy A-holes. Both sides have a beef, but IMO, They are all overpaid.

Werd.

[sooner59]

Oh they are damn sure overpaid. Both need to STFU and go about their day when it comes down to it. I personally wouldn't want to play extra games for no extra pay, though. I see where that is coming from.

[Mongo]

I was kinda upset at first about this situation. Now I dont care. Millionaires and billionaires bitching about money when so many are without these days seems flat out ****ing wrong. It comes down to them being paid entertainers. **** them all.

I'll stick to watching paid amatuers:D

[soonerbub]

Wonder who'll pick up this guy

http://themixtapemonster.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/shane-falco.jpg

[OUthunder]

I was kinda upset at first about this situation. Now I dont care. Millionaires and billionaires bitchibg about money when so many are without these days seems flat out ****ing wrong. It comes down to them being paid entertainers. **** them all.

I'll stick to watching paid amatuers:D

I read an article in SI a few months back that stated that almost 78% of all NFL football players will go bankrupt at some point in their lives.

Amazing!

[Mongo]

I saw that HBO piece on something like that.

13 kids worth of child support and a 9000 sq. ft. house for one will eat your paycheck up in a heartbeat

[oumartin]

I'd spend all my paychecks on hookers and blow

[Mongo]

I'd spend all my paychecks on hookers and blow

I am sure alot of the nfl players do too, just classier hookers and purer blow:D

[OutlandTrophy]

And the players aren't under any obligation to continue to make owners billionaires. So there we are.

I think most were close to if not already billionaires before they purchased NFL teams.

Jerry Jones owns an energy company, he obviously can make money doing other things. What are most of his players able to do other than play a sport?

[auto]

Not really, Jerry Jones sold his natural gas business to buy the Cowboys and got loans to cover the rest, it is his only business which is a rarity among the owners..

You should not comment on things you do not know about.

You are wrong about that I promise you. Jerry still has tons of other ventures, I can't comment but I promise you he has other gigs going.

Regards,

Implementer of ERP/Retail Software:D

[pphilfran]

From Forbes...

http://www.forbes.com/profile/jerry-jones

Jones' new 111,000-seat stadium hosted the Superbowl and helped the Dallas Cowboys rake in $420 million last year to maintain its status as the most valuable NFL team, worth $1.8 billion. Team performed better financially than it did on the field; missed playoffs with a 6-10 record. Thanks to lucrative seat licenses, Jones took on relatively little debt building his $1.2 billion cathedral to Texas football. Former Arkansas Razorback made first fortune in 1970s drilling natural gas wells. Bought the Dallas Cowboys for $150 million 1989; team has won 3 Super Bowl rings under his ownership. Still owns large oil and gas holdings, shopping centers. Big Salvation Army supporter has used Cowboys to raise more than $1 billion for the charity over past 11 years.

[Leroy Lizard]

In case you havn't noticed, we the fans pay all of the NFL's bills, so I think it is reasonable that we have a say, and by the way, I support the side who DOESN'T want the NFL season to be extended to 324585293 games.

Suppose you're a fan of (say) Tool. You buy all their albums. You go to their concerts. Under no circumstances does that give you a financial interest in any deals that take place between Tool and their record producer. It's none of your business. If you don't like the way the record producer treats Tool, then don't buy the label's music.

So if you don't like the way that the owners treat the players, then don't watch the NFL. But don't pretend that the NFL owes you anything. And under no circumstances should you think that the NFL owners should pay the players more simply because you like the players.

[Leroy Lizard]

Does that include the Packers?

No, and I have no interest in placing an asterisk every time I mention NFL teams. So when I talk about the NFL, I'm not necessarily talking about Green Bay. :rolleyes:

[Leroy Lizard]

So the owners are overpaid.

The player are overpaid.

Then there must be some fools out there giving them more money than they are worth.

Who are those fools?

[pphilfran]

So the owners are overpaid.

The player are overpaid.

Then there must be some fools out there giving them more money than they are worth.

Who are those fools?

I said I was one in an earlier post...

[Aries]

I have been keeping up pretty well with this. but one thing i cant figure is what happens to the draft? does it just not happen without a new cba?

They have said all along that the draft will take place as planned, no matter what happens regarding a CBA or lockout.

[101sooner]

Bradford Pears are blooming.

[Breadburner]

Mo money fo hookers N blow.....!!!!

[pappy]

When they finally get everything resolved and play again, I say we boycott attending games for a season. Watch the games on TV, but don't attend games and don't buy any merchandise. Especially don't attend the Superbowl.

Prices will be more expensive when they get back guaranteed! So we need to boycott attending, you will still be able to watch it on tv b/c the nfl has contracts with TV...seeing those greedy glorified clowns playing in front of an empty stadium would be a beautiful sight!

[bluedogok]

You should not comment on things you do not know about.

You are wrong about that I promise you. Jerry still has tons of other ventures, I can't comment but I promise you he has other gigs going.

Regards,

Implementer of ERP/Retail Software:D
There is a difference between what most owners primary business and their football teams are, Jerry Jones' just happened to be the inverse of most teams. I know that he has developed properties especially around Valley Ranch, if the original Cowboys investment would have been a dismal failure then I doubt he would have been in a position to advance his wealth in the years since. I bet Arthur Blank still considers Home Depot more important than the Atlanta Falcons, to Jerry I think the Cowboys mean more to him than his other businesses.

At the time that he bought the team all the reports stated that he sold what he could and leveraged everything else to buy the Cowboys, he even stated that it was going to be his primary business and he had to make money from it which upset many of the other owners for whom the teams were nothing but playthings. Jerry had to make money to pay off the debt on the team and if he has done well enough to expand back into other ventures then great for him but with $825 million of debt that needs serviced, those other businesses could get hurt quickly if he doesn't have the Cowboys to service that debt. Just look at what happened to Tom Hicks sports empire after he was unable to service his debt or get refinancing for that debt. When you have that huge of a nut to carry it can go downhill fast.

[PLaw]

F 'em, as in forget 'em.

College ball is what it is all about - makes me ill the money pro athletes make and school teachers, policeman, firefighters, and our military are scrapin to get by. I have lost all passion for the pro's and this is from a kid who grew up in a part of the country where there was heck to pay if the preacher went 5 minutes over and we missed the Cowboys kick-off.

Long live Staubach, Lilly, Garrison, Jordan and the crew.

RIP Coach Landry, Dandy Don and Bullet Bob.

To Hell with Jerry Jones.

BOOMER

[Leroy Lizard]

When they finally get everything resolved and play again, I say we boycott attending games for a season. Watch the games on TV, but don't attend games and don't buy any merchandise. Especially don't attend the Superbowl.

Why?

If someone feels like attending a game because he thinks the entertainment is worth the money, why shouldn't he?

I don't refuse to purchase a rock group's CD because its arguing with its producer. If the CD has good tunes on it, I'll buy it. If the group refuses to put out a CD because its producer can't come to terms, that its business. If the producer refuses to sign the group because it thinks their terms are unreasonable, that's its business.

Why fans think they need to punish one group or the other is beyond me.

[pappy]

Why?

If someone feels like attending a game because he thinks the entertainment is worth the money, why shouldn't he?

I don't refuse to purchase a rock group's CD because its arguing with its producer. If the CD has good tunes on it, I'll buy it. If the group refuses to put out a CD because its producer can't come to terms, that its business. If the producer refuses to sign the group because it thinks their terms are unreasonable, that's its business.

Why fans think they need to punish one group or the other is beyond me.

Not attending would punish both groups not just 1 or the other.

[auto]

it is his only business which is a rarity among the owners. It was also why he rankled a bunch of the old guard owners when he came.

Let's address this.... the word only. I can't disclose anymore than I have, but even according to publications you are wrong.


There is a difference between what most owners primary business and their football teams are, Jerry Jones' just happened to be the inverse of most teams. I know that he has developed properties especially around Valley Ranch, if the original Cowboys investment would have been a dismal failure then I doubt he would have been in a position to advance his wealth in the years since. I bet Arthur Blank still considers Home Depot more important than the Atlanta Falcons, to Jerry I think the Cowboys mean more to him than his other businesses.

.

While Jerry may love the Cowboys more than any other business, it is not the sole source of his income, of which you indicated in his original post. Now, go back and check the definitions of only and primary.:pop:

[Leroy Lizard]

Not attending would punish both groups not just 1 or the other.

And yourself, if you really like watching football live and you really like its merchandise, which makes this a bit silly.

[jersey sooner]

When they finally get everything resolved and play again, I say we boycott attending games for a season. Watch the games on TV, but don't attend games and don't buy any merchandise. Especially don't attend the Superbowl.

This is of course a very unrealistic proposal, but that doesn't mean it isn't a damn good idea. Plus, I like playing the "what if" game. Lets face facts here, without the fan there is no 9 billion dollars. But like most things in this world, who is in the position of power is ***-backwards. Without the fans, there is no money. Without the money, there are no players. And without the money and players, there is no need for horrifyingly greedy owners who are ****ing with the most popular sport in the history of the world. But the owners essentially get the final say in how much money they think they deserve, while the fan has to sit back and watch the 2011 season be pissed down the drain. I really wish an organized protest that would send the message "don't you dare **** with our sacred sport because the billions of dollars you make now isn't enough" to the owners by cutting off the money we give them was possible. Its exactly what should happen. Anybody around here good at starting social revolutions?



Suppose you're a fan of (say) Tool. You buy all their albums. You go to their concerts. Under no circumstances does that give you a financial interest in any deals that take place between Tool and their record producer. It's none of your business. If you don't like the way the record producer treats Tool, then don't buy the label's music.

This analogy doesn't equate at all. First of all, no band has ever been as popular and made as much money as the NFL. Second, if a band pulls this bs, there is plenty of other music to keep you satisfied in the meantime. There is only one football. And if a record producer/band that I support stop making the music I pay them for because they can't agree who gets what ammount of my money, then you're damn straight it becomes my business. In no way should I ever suffer because of the greed displayed by both parties. The interest of the people who make them all this money should be their foremost concern.


So if you don't like the way that the owners treat the players, then don't watch the NFL. But don't pretend that the NFL owes you anything. And under no circumstances should you think that the NFL owners should pay the players more simply because you like the players.

That is so weak. Like texas longhorn weak. And the NFL actually owes the fans 9 billion dollars worth of respect. And I think the NFL owners should pay the players way more than they make themselves. The players are the only people on the earth who can do what they do. Anyone can do what the owners do.


If someone feels like attending a game because he thinks the entertainment is worth the money, why shouldn't he?

If everyone got on the same page and decided the owners needed to be punished for this sin, and everyone decided the best way to do that was to boycott attending games for an entire season, then that would be a really good reason why he shouldn't. Yes, I know that isn't going to happen.


Why fans think they need to punish one group or the other is beyond me.

Now you know. Without us they don't get rich.

[Leroy Lizard]

This analogy doesn't equate at all. First of all, no band has ever been as popular and made as much money as the NFL.

Actually, the analogy here is between the record producer and an NFL team. Don't kid yourself; these record labels produce big money.

Time Warner annual revenue: $3.9 billion
Dallas Cowboys annual revenue: $270 million

Even if you added ALL of the teams' annual revenue they would be swamped by Time Warner.

Sorry.


Second, if a band pulls this bs, there is plenty of other music to keep you satisfied in the meantime. There is only one football. And if a record producer/band that I support stop making the music I pay them for because they can't agree who gets what ammount of my money, then you're damn straight it becomes my business.

Neither the record label nor the bands are obligated to you in any way. You gave them money in return for their entertainment. It was a fair deal in which both sides got what they wanted. They're not beholden to you any more than you are beholden to them. After all, they don't require you to purchase their products, so how can you require them to put out a product?


That is so weak. Like texas longhorn weak. And the NFL actually owes the fans 9 billion dollars worth of respect. And I think the NFL owners should pay the players way more than they make themselves. The players are the only people on the earth who can do what they do. Anyone can do what the owners do.

This is starting to sound like Marxist class warfare.

If anyone can do what the owners can do, why are there only about 30 of them and about 1500 players?

In truth, the problem is that players have extraordinarily narrow skill sets. Without football, they're fry cooks. Owners are typically multimillionaire businessmen who know money. Without the players, almost all of them would still be making money in other endeavors.

Don't kid yourself -- owners are usually pretty talented individuals when it comes to making money (not a bad talent to have).

[texaspokieokie]

notice in Post #22 that jerry world is referred to as: new 111,000 seat stadium. guess we know that ain't true. souper bowl PAID was something like 91,000.
officially

[pphilfran]

This is of course a very unrealistic proposal, but that doesn't mean it isn't a damn good idea. Plus, I like playing the "what if" game. Lets face facts here, without the fan there is no 9 billion dollars. But like most things in this world, who is in the position of power is ***-backwards. Without the fans, there is no money. Without the money, there are no players. And without the money and players, there is no need for horrifyingly greedy owners who are ****ing with the most popular sport in the history of the world. But the owners essentially get the final say in how much money they think they deserve, while the fan has to sit back and watch the 2011 season be pissed down the drain. I really wish an organized protest that would send the message "don't you dare **** with our sacred sport because the billions of dollars you make now isn't enough" to the owners by cutting off the money we give them was possible. Its exactly what should happen. Anybody around here good at starting social revolutions?




This analogy doesn't equate at all. First of all, no band has ever been as popular and made as much money as the NFL. Second, if a band pulls this bs, there is plenty of other music to keep you satisfied in the meantime. There is only one football. And if a record producer/band that I support stop making the music I pay them for because they can't agree who gets what ammount of my money, then you're damn straight it becomes my business. In no way should I ever suffer because of the greed displayed by both parties. The interest of the people who make them all this money should be their foremost concern.



That is so weak. Like texas longhorn weak. And the NFL actually owes the fans 9 billion dollars worth of respect. And I think the NFL owners should pay the players way more than they make themselves. The players are the only people on the earth who can do what they do. Anyone can do what the owners do.



If everyone got on the same page and decided the owners needed to be punished for this sin, and everyone decided the best way to do that was to boycott attending games for an entire season, then that would be a really good reason why he shouldn't. Yes, I know that isn't going to happen.



Now you know. Without us they don't get rich.

I do not think that I have ever seen a post that was off base on each point...until now...

[texaspokieokie]

I do not think that I have ever seen a post that was off base on each point...until now...

i guess you haven't ever read a post from jersey before.

[pphilfran]

F 'em, as in forget 'em.

College ball is what it is all about - makes me ill the money pro athletes make and school teachers, policeman, firefighters, and our military are scrapin to get by. I have lost all passion for the pro's and this is from a kid who grew up in a part of the country where there was heck to pay if the preacher went 5 minutes over and we missed the Cowboys kick-off.

Long live Staubach, Lilly, Garrison, Jordan and the crew.

RIP Coach Landry, Dandy Don and Bullet Bob.

To Hell with Jerry Jones.

BOOMER

A post I can agree with...sadly, college sports seem to be going down the same road...

[pphilfran]

i guess you haven't ever read a post from jersey before.

I am reasonably new here...

[texaspokieokie]

I am reasonably new here...

just funnin.

[GDC]

Greedy A-holes. Both sides have a beef, but IMO, They are all overpaid.

Millionaires versus billionaires. Yawn.

Professional sports suck, especially the NBA and NFL.

[101sooner]

Millionaires versus billionaires. Yawn.

Professional sports suck, especially the NBA and NFL.


Right.

[jersey sooner]

Actually, the analogy here is between the record producer and an NFL team.

I was just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you wouldn't really be dumb enough to compare a record company with a single NFL team. I won't do that anymore. Now your analogy really sucks something awful. You want to compare a major recording company, which probably has somewhere around 32 really popular artists, with a single NFL franchise rather than the NFL as a whole. That's the sign of a pretty weak argument.


Time Warner annual revenue: $3.9 billion
Dallas Cowboys annual revenue: $270 million

This is just pitiful. I thought we were talking about record companies? So why did you take the revenue of the entire Time Warner mega corporation, rather than the Warner Music Group (Time Warners music label)? Maybe because Warner Music Group claimed to earn $439 million in their 2010 annual report? Skewing the facts to make your argument sound better is a very longhorn thing to do. There are 4 major music companies right now, and using your crappy analogy, the NFL poops on all of them.


Even if you added ALL of the teams' annual revenue they would be swamped by Time Warner.

Sorry.

Time Warner isn't a record label. Sorry. But it doesn't matter, because like I said:

This analogy doesn't equate at all.


Neither the record label nor the bands are obligated to you in any way.

Loyalty used to be worth something in this world. It's sad there are so many people like you.


This is starting to sound like Marxist class warfare.

Now you ****ed up. Weren't you a professor at OU? It's no wonder all horn fans have left to use is the academic level of the school. Anybody thinking he just made an advanced intellectual socio-economic reference, please don't be fooled. This man is a fraud. Marxist class warfare is creating a war between the upper class and the lower class until one takes over the other. What we're talking about is just a simple case of the paying customer, who yes happens to be the little guy, being **** on. We pour all this money into the NFL year after year, and we only ask for one thing. Football. But all this loyalty and money out of our pocket has gotten us what? No football in 2011. But I guess there really are people like you who think we have no business in what's going on. Don't kid yourself.


If anyone can do what the owners can do, why are there only about 30 of them and about 1500 players?

Um, really? Maybe because there are only about 30 teams. And did you really take how I phrased that literally? Ok, I'll rephrase. Not anyone can do what the owners do, but there certainly are a ton of people who can. Way more than 1500.


In truth, the problem is that players have extraordinarily narrow skill sets. Without football, they're fry cooks.

Does that take anything away from the value of their skill sets? No, so this has no bearing on anything.


Owners are typically multimillionaire businessmen who know money. Without the players, almost all of them would still be making money in other endeavors.

And this has absolutely nothing to do with anything we are talking about.


I do not think that I have ever seen a post that was off base on each point...until now...

I'm hanging by a thread over here waiting for you to explain what is off base in each point. Hurry, I can't wait any longer.


i guess you haven't ever read a post from jersey before.

It's ok if you want to take jabs at me to make yourself feel better. I understand that in the end, you are a fan of one of the most underachieving teams in the history of our sport. Every saturday during the fall you live one of the more miserable existences I can imagine. And every year, including the best years you ever have, you get taken to the woodshed and spanked by your daddy. So I'm ok with this.

[TIMB0B]

So, does the UFL expand and become a viable league?

[Leroy Lizard]

This is just pitiful. I thought we were talking about record companies? So why did you take the revenue of the entire Time Warner mega corporation, rather than the Warner Music Group (Time Warners music label)? Maybe because Warner Music Group claimed to earn $439 million in their 2010 annual report?

That is still more than the Dallas Cowboys earns, and it is the Dallas Cowboys that is the closer analogy since it is a corporation in of itself that pays its players (e.g., the recording artists).


Loyalty used to be worth something in this world. It's sad there are so many people like you.

So I'm compelled to purchase Warner Music Group's products out of loyalty?

It sounds like you want loyalty to be a one-way street, where the label (team) is compelled by some weird moralistic bent to provide a product for you, but you are under no obligation to buy anything from them.

If you decided last season to not go to any NFL games, does the NFL have a right to be angry with you?

Not disappointed, angry.

In other words, do you have a moral obligation to support the NFL financially?


Now you ****ed up. Weren't you a professor at OU? It's no wonder all horn fans have left to use is the academic level of the school. [Awooooo, nice personal attack there.] Anybody thinking he just made an advanced intellectual socio-economic reference, please don't be fooled. This man is a fraud. Marxist class warfare is creating a war between the upper class and the lower class until one takes over the other. What we're talking about is just a simple case of the paying customer, who yes happens to be the little guy, being **** on. We pour all this money into the NFL year after year, and we only ask for one thing. Football.

And they gave it to you. You got what you wanted. Now it is a new season and the corporation is mulling over whether to offer its product because the workers are demanding more money then the company wants to pay.

I love Kraft ranch dressing. Always have. I buy lots of it. I'm a loyal fan. But if Kraft decided at some point that they no longer wanted to produce ranch dressing, I have no real reason to be angry. By the same token, if I decide at some point in the future to switch to another brand, they have no reason to be angry with me.

The NFL provides a product; you purchase if it suits your own interests. You don't do this out of charity towards the NFL, so quit coming off as if they owe you something.

[jersey sooner]

That is still more than the Dallas Cowboys earns, and it is the Dallas Cowboys that is the closer analogy since it is a corporation in of itself that pays its players (e.g., the recording artists).

It's not just the Dallas Cowboys that are going to ruin the 2011 season, it's all 32 owners, a.k.a the NFL. I didn't think I needed to spell that out. It really shouldn't be that hard to understand.


It sounds like you want loyalty to be a one-way street, where the label (team) is compelled by some weird moralistic bent to provide a product for you, but you are under no obligation to buy anything from them.

God almighty. What would you call the endless support fans have given their favorite teams for the last 40 years? And the billions of dollars we take out of our pocket and put into theirs? I call that loyalty.


I love Kraft ranch dressing. Always have. I buy lots of it. I'm a loyal fan.

Anyone who doesn't use Hidden Vally Ranch is a total turd. That is as factually correct as the sun rising in the East and setting in the West. Please step your game up.


so quit coming off as if they owe you something.

I'll say it again. They owe me 9 billion dollars worth of respect.

[Leroy Lizard]

It's not just the Dallas Cowboys that are going to ruin the 2011 season, it's all 32 owners, a.k.a the NFL. I didn't think I needed to spell that out. It really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

So you're willing to throw in the top 32 record labels in the mix? Otherwise, how is that a fair analogy?

Or, are you wiling to let the Dallas Cowboys be the music group? If so, you have a very strange argument.


God almighty. What would you call the endless support fans have given their favorite teams for the last 40 years? And the billions of dollars we take out of our pocket and put into theirs? I call that loyalty.

What do I call that support? Money.

It's money. It's like any money paid to a company that provides a product. Paying the company money does not entitle the customer to anything more than they purchased. In this argument, customers purchased tickets to see the games and they got to the see the games. Nothing more, nothing less.


Anyone who doesn't use Hidden Vally Ranch is a total turd. That is as factually correct as the sun rising in the East and setting in the West. Please step your game up.

I will as soon as you admit you're wrong (and that you're trying to turn this thread into a salad dressing argument).


I'll say it again. They owe me 9 billion dollars worth of respect.

They already delivered. You paid for the t-shirts; they gave you the t-shirts. You paid for the tickets; they let you enter the stadium.

You're even-steven at this point.

Now, if you purchased season tickets then I could see an argument for a refund. But that isn't the issue here.

BTW, this assumes that you attend OU football games. Because if you don't, you are clearly not doing your part as a loyal fan, right?

[StoopTroup]

Millionaires versus billionaires. Yawn.

Professional sports suck, especially the NBA and NFL.

Billionaires vs Gates.....

lol....you are right when it comes to the money.

They have all forgotten about why they do it....

[Leroy Lizard]

Billionaires vs Gates.....

lol....you are right when it comes to the money.

They have all forgotten about why they do it....

No, they simply redefine why they do it. (Actually, they always did it for the money or for the opportunity to make money. Forget the "love of the game" angle; that crap is to sucker the fans.)

If you want to see a contrast, consider short-track auto racing. Some of the teams pour in big money for the sake of being a part of racing. They have very little chance of turning a profit. Sports to them is mostly a hobby. This mindset is completely foreign to pro sports players and owners alike (coaches too), and it is foolish to think otherwise.

This is why I laugh at the fan loyalty bit. Hee hee hee.

[StoopTroup]

no

[Leroy Lizard]

no

It's concise. I'll give you that.

[jersey sooner]

Just stumbled across this on ESPN. This guy seems to get it. (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=6208732)

[Leroy Lizard]

Just stumbled across this on ESPN. This guy seems to get it. (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=6208732)

Nowhere in there does the author even suggest the NFL owners are obligated to the fans, only that fans wield considerable spending power. We already know that, just like Kraft is well aware that it must please its customer base.

His attempt to place all the blame on the owners is rich. There is no blame here -- both sides want something the other side isn't willing to give. None of us can decide which side is right, because there is no right or wrong here.

You get what you negotiate, not what you deserve.

Ultimately, the owners have decided that a work stoppage is in their best financial interests. This is a business. If that's what they think, more power to them. They don't tell you how to run your business; why should you be able to tell them how to run theirs?

For the record, I don't side with the owners, nor do I side with the players. Their financial dealings between them is none of my concern. If they come to an agreement and put a product on the field, I'll watch.

[jersey sooner]

The faster the owners and players realize the world can function perfectly well without a National Football League, the faster the two sides will realize just how good life is for both. The faster each regains respect for the people who buy the tickets, buy the jerseys and create the coveted ratings, the faster this labor strife will be over -- and forgotten. After all, by being willing to spend money on football religiously, you the fans are the ones who give the generally unmarketable skill of throwing a football 60 yards on a line any value at all.


The real shame would be if fans just wait for the storm to pass and continue with business as usual without reminding both sides that the business of caring is what makes any of this important.


Saying players should be grateful to be paid millions for playing a kid's game is, at its worst, an unsophisticated position, for professional sports is not a kid's game. Kid's games don't charge $75 to park, or $1,200 per ticket to attend the championship game. Kid's games don't generate $9 billion in revenue.


Allowances are made for ownership because they wear the suits. They've earned their money in ways the public tends to respect -- in business, through family -- instead of by combining wonderful genes with admirable dedication.

I'm done with this ****ing know-it-all clown.

[Leroy Lizard]

Gee, he pastes a bunch of irrelevant quotes together and skips town. What a surprise.

[jersey sooner]

Irrelevant quotes? Maybe you should read them closer, because they echo exactly what I've been saying. And nobodies skipping town you punk. But I am done arguing with some old *** know-it-all wannabe who's opinion sucks so bad. What's the consensus amongst the board elders on this clown anyway?

[Leroy Lizard]

Irrelevant quotes? Maybe you should read them closer, because they echo exactly what I've been saying. And nobodies skipping town you punk. But I am done arguing with some old *** know-it-all wannabe who's opinion sucks so bad. What's the consensus amongst the board elders on this clown anyway?

Let me ask you a question: Don't the players owe you just as much? If so, why aren't they just accepting what the owners are offering? It appears to me that they are equally guilty of depriving you of what you deserve (whatever the **** that is).

You're just a schmuck fan who bought into the fan loyalty bull**** and now feels someone owes him something. Pfffft! Someday maybe you'll figure out that NFL football is a product, just like Ivory soap.

Oh, I have one more question that you never bothered to answer: Do you attend OU games?

As far as opinions of the board go, you don't come across as all that popular if you get my drift.

[texaspokieokie]

I was just going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you wouldn't really be dumb enough to compare a record company with a single NFL team. I won't do that anymore. Now your analogy really sucks something awful. You want to compare a major recording company, which probably has somewhere around 32 really popular artists, with a single NFL franchise rather than the NFL as a whole. That's the sign of a pretty weak argument.



This is just pitiful. I thought we were talking about record companies? So why did you take the revenue of the entire Time Warner mega corporation, rather than the Warner Music Group (Time Warners music label)? Maybe because Warner Music Group claimed to earn $439 million in their 2010 annual report? Skewing the facts to make your argument sound better is a very longhorn thing to do. There are 4 major music companies right now, and using your crappy analogy, the NFL poops on all of them.



Time Warner isn't a record label. Sorry. But it doesn't matter, because like I said:




Loyalty used to be worth something in this world. It's sad there are so many people like you.



Now you ****ed up. Weren't you a professor at OU? It's no wonder all horn fans have left to use is the academic level of the school. Anybody thinking he just made an advanced intellectual socio-economic reference, please don't be fooled. This man is a fraud. Marxist class warfare is creating a war between the upper class and the lower class until one takes over the other. What we're talking about is just a simple case of the paying customer, who yes happens to be the little guy, being **** on. We pour all this money into the NFL year after year, and we only ask for one thing. Football. But all this loyalty and money out of our pocket has gotten us what? No football in 2011. But I guess there really are people like you who think we have no business in what's going on. Don't kid yourself.



Um, really? Maybe because there are only about 30 teams. And did you really take how I phrased that literally? Ok, I'll rephrase. Not anyone can do what the owners do, but there certainly are a ton of people who can. Way more than 1500.



Does that take anything away from the value of their skill sets? No, so this has no bearing on anything.



And this has absolutely nothing to do with anything we are talking about.



I'm hanging by a thread over here waiting for you to explain what is off base in each point. Hurry, I can't wait any longer.



It's ok if you want to take jabs at me to make yourself feel better. I understand that in the end, you are a fan of one of the most underachieving teams in the history of our sport. Every saturday during the fall you live one of the more miserable existences I can imagine. And every year, including the best years you ever have, you get taken to the woodshed and spanked by your daddy. So I'm ok with this.

i don't know what you're talking about ??

[jersey sooner]

Let me ask you a question: Don't the players owe you just as much? If so, why aren't they just accepting what the owners are offering? It appears to me that they are equally guilty of depriving you of what you deserve (whatever the **** that is).

What a fool you are. The players didn't corrupt the sport into nothing short of a money machine, and then be the single reason we won't have a 2011 season. And I'm fine with the players not accepting the bull**** the owners are offering. They are the people with some of the most valuable/profitable skill sets on the face of the planet. They should be making most of if not all the damn money. And what I deserve is a ****ing football season. Don't you think the fans who have made these people super rich deserve a football season?


You're just a schmuck fan who bought into the fan loyalty bull**** and now feels someone owes him something. Pfffft! Someday maybe you'll figure out that NFL football is a product, just like Ivory soap.

Money is slowly ruining this world, and jackasses like you, who think the greatest sport in the world is nothing more than a product to be sold, are the reason **** like this can happen.


Oh, I have one more question that you never bothered to answer: Do you attend OU games?

I live in Jersey, so no I don't attend OU games regularly, although I have been to quite a few. And I noticed your little attempt before to twist a point made in the argument into me not being a loyal fan. But let me warn you, if you ****ing ever question my loyalty to the Sooners, and I mean ever, "I'm gonna have to head down there and I will rain down in a Godly ****ing firestorm upon you! You're gonna have to call the ****ing United Nations and get a ****ing binding resolution to keep me from ****ing destroying you. I'm talking about a scorched earth, mother****er! I will massacre you! I WILL **** YOU UP!" I bleed crimson you punk b itch.


As far as opinions of the board go, you don't come across as all that popular if you get my drift.

No, I don't get your drift.

[jersey sooner]

I'm curious if you disagree with one of the very first things I said in this thread:


Without the fans, there is no money. Without the money, there are no players. And without the money and players, there is no need for horrifyingly greedy owners who are ****ing with the most popular sport in the history of the world.

[Leroy Lizard]

What a fool you are. The players didn't corrupt the sport into nothing short of a money machine, and then be the single reason we won't have a 2011 season.

The players are even bigger mercenaries than the owners! Who are you kidding?

You remind me of those fool Green Bay fans who adored Bret Favre, and then spent the last few years wondering why he was playing for their division rival.

You guys are the ultimate chumps. You will never understand it. There is no loyalty to the fans among players. They don't give a damn any more about the fans than the owners. And why should they?

Sure, they talk a big game. "The Dallas fans are great! (sniff) I love you guys (but I'm taking my act to Washington because they're going to give me more money)"


And I'm fine with the players not accepting the bull**** the owners are offering. They are the people with some of the most valuable/profitable skill sets on the face of the planet.

As I said before, you don't get what you deserve in life; you get what you negotiate. Players don't get paid as much as the owners because they can't negotiate for as much. And they can't negotiate for as much because in reality they have very limited skill sets. They can run fast and catch a ball, but outside the NFL that will get you a cup of coffee and a telephone call, and that's about all.

If I was an owner I would pay them as little as I could. Do they deserve more? No. But it isn't even that -- you get what you negotiate.


They should be making most of if not all the damn money. And what I deserve is a ****ing football season. Don't you think the fans who have made these people super rich deserve a football season?

No. You've done nothing to deserve it. Sure, you gave the NFL owners a lot of money in the past (although I doubt you really have), but they've already paid you back by putting on a show.


Money is slowly ruining this world, and jackasses like you, who think the greatest sport in the world is nothing more than a product to be sold, are the reason **** like this can happen.

He needs to sit in an NFL board meeting sometime. :D


I live in Jersey, so no I don't attend OU games regularly, although I have been to quite a few. And I noticed your little attempt before to twist a point made in the argument into me not being a loyal fan. But let me warn you, if you ****ing ever question my loyalty to the Sooners, and I mean ever, "I'm gonna have to head down there and I will rain down in a Godly ****ing firestorm upon you! You're gonna have to call the ****ing United Nations and get a ****ing binding resolution to keep me from ****ing destroying you. I'm talking about a scorched earth, mother****er! I will massacre you! I WILL **** YOU UP!" I bleed crimson you punk b itch.

I want to take this moment out of my time to apologize to KC//Crimson. His posts all of a sudden don't seem so bad.

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm curious if you disagree with one of the very first things I said in this thread:

I rearranged the words and the same sentiment holds:


Without the fans, there is no money. Without the money, there are no owners. And without the money and owners, there is no need for horrifyingly greedy players who are ****ing with the most popular sport in the history of the world.

[Leroy Lizard]

BTW, let's see who deserves more money.

Daniel Snyder (born November 23, 1965 in Silver Spring, Maryland)


Current owner of Washington Redskins
Net worth of 1.3 billion dollars.
Youngest CEO ever of a publically traded company.
Expanded the company aggressively through a string of acquisitions, and in April 2000, Snyder Communications was sold to the French advertising and marketing services group Havas in an all-stock transaction valued at in excess of US$2 billion, the largest transaction in the history of the advertising/market industry
At 23 years old, Snyder and his sister Michelle founded a marketing company, Snyder Communications LP, a limited partnership of US News & World Reports.


Vince Young


Current NFL quarterback.
Dumbass

[MamaMia]

Cant the owners just get new football players?

[GKeeper316]

Without the players, the owners are looking for jobs.

wow... nope.

guys that own football teams were already rich before they bought those teams.

[GKeeper316]

And without the money and players, there is no need for horrifyingly greedy owners who are ****ing with the most popular sport in the history of the world.

ok ive read through this entire thread (theres 20 minutes of my life i'll never get back...) and you're either ethnocentrically ignorant, or just plain ****ing stupid...

the most popular sport in the history of the world is soccer. always has been, always will be.

i think all the gel you jersey dbags use has affected your brain (assuming you had one in the first place).

[GKeeper316]

Cant the owners just get new football players?

sure they can... but the new players wouldn't be as good as the ones they have now (hence the reason for pro days and the combine; to get the best) and would lower the quality of the product they're trying to sell.

i'd much rather watch AD run the ball than some dude off the street.

[Leroy Lizard]

sure they can... but the new players wouldn't be as good as the ones they have now (hence the reason for pro days and the combine; to get the best) and would lower the quality of the product they're trying to sell.

i'd much rather watch AD run the ball than some dude off the street.

True, but the dude off the street looks like AD when dudes off the street are trying to tackle him. It's all relative.

[MamaMia]

sure they can... but the new players wouldn't be as good as the ones they have now (hence the reason for pro days and the combine; to get the best) and would lower the quality of the product they're trying to sell.

i'd much rather watch AD run the ball than some dude off the street.They can have another combine and pro day. As much as people would like to believe, ADs not going to be able to run the ball forever anyway.

[texaspokieokie]

the TV suits probably don't want to pay the billions to which they're obligated,to put on a 2nd class show.

wouldn't matter to me, i couldn't tell the difference. i do, however, hate scabs !!!

i wouldn't watch it anyway, all i watch is the dallas pukeboys, hoping for another big loss.

even @ that, owners would still have to work out a contract. scabs have to eat, strange as it seams.

[Aries]

sure they can... but the new players wouldn't be as good as the ones they have now (hence the reason for pro days and the combine; to get the best) and would lower the quality of the product they're trying to sell.

i'd much rather watch AD run the ball than some dude off the street.

I don't think they can. If the players went on strike they could... but legally, I don't believe they can lock them out, then replace them. With or without a CBA, many players still have a valid contract.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer.

[texaspokieokie]

I don't think they can. If the players went on strike they could... but legally, I don't believe they can lock them out, then replace them. With or without a CBA, many players still have a valid contract.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer.

i surely don't know either, but i think you're right.

[jersey sooner]

I rearranged the words and the same sentiment holds:

I think we both got it wrong. What it should have said was: Without the fans there is no money. Without the players there is no money. Without the money there is no need for owners to sit on their asses and collect more than half.



the most popular sport in the history of the world is soccer. always has been, always will be.

Hyperbole, you pee-drinking crapface. Get to know one.


True, but the dude off the street looks like AD when dudes off the street are trying to tackle him. It's all relative.

Maybe to a jackass like you who doesn't know the game of football. But don't assume real football fans wouldn't know the difference.

[jersey sooner]

wouldn't matter to me, i couldn't tell the difference.

That is one of the side effects of watching too many Oklahoma State football games.

[texaspokieokie]

That is one of the side effects of watching too many Oklahoma State football games.

what makes you think you know what i watch ??

[diegosooner]

I'll miss it. I have high interest for 10 or 12 weeks and then it dies down until the playoffs. Will miss watching the continuted development of Bradford too.

[Leroy Lizard]

I think we both got it wrong. What it should have said was: Without the fans there is no money. Without the players there is no money. Without the money there is no need for owners to sit on their asses and collect more than half.

It seems to me that you just have problems with capitalistic systems.

[Leroy Lizard]

Maybe to a jackass like you who doesn't know the game of football. But don't assume real football fans wouldn't know the difference.

You're wrong. How many times have we seen posts of high school clips in which the posters go "He's a beast!" Any player looks great when the opposing players are mediocre.

I watch OU far more than I do the NFL, and the players in college football are not as good. According to your argument, college football should have very few fans because the players aren't as good.

All that matters is their relative skills, not overall skills. As long as teams are evenly matched and the players at least look competent the fans will be happy.

[jersey sooner]

what makes you think you know what i watch ??

I was assuming only an Oklahoma State fan would put pokie in their name.


It seems to me that you just have problems with capitalistic systems.

It seems you like to put words in my mouth.


You're wrong. How many times have we seen posts of high school clips in which the posters go "He's a beast!" Any player looks great when the opposing players are mediocre.

I watch OU far more than I do the NFL, and the players in college football are not as good. According to your argument, college football should have very few fans because the players aren't as good.

All that matters is their relative skills, not overall skills. As long as teams are evenly matched and the players at least look competent the fans will be happy.

You are so out of touch with reality its pathetic.

[Leroy Lizard]

I was assuming only an Oklahoma State fan would put pokie in their name.



It seems you like to put words in my mouth.



You are so out of touch with reality its pathetic.

If you've been reduced to nothing more than one-line insults why not just step out of here? You're done.

[pphilfran]

The players didn't corrupt the sport into nothing short of a money machine, and then be the single reason we won't have a 2011 season.



No, I don't get your drift.

You actually think the players have no part in the lockout? You actually think they are not greedy and are as innocent as a newborn baby?

[pphilfran]

Without the money there is no need for owners to sit on their asses and collect more than half.


Build a business and have a net worth of at least a half billion and you too can own a pro team and sit on your *** and collect more than half...

If you built a business worth a half billion dollars what return would you expect each and every year?

[Mad Dog Madsen]

Awesome...

[texaspokieokie]

jerzee soner
your assumption makes an "***" out of you.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I'm surprised at his tone, Dean hasn't whipped out the "bane" hammer...

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm surprised at his tone, Dean hasn't whipped out the "bane" hammer...

I think it's been Open Season on me for quite awhile in here. ;)

[jersey sooner]

If you've been reduced to nothing more than one-line insults why not just step out of here? You're done.

Nice try you clown, but that was all I could get in on my lunch break. "If you keep talking like a longhorn, I'm gonna slap you like a longhorn." And when I said that you're so out of touch with reality it's pathetic, that was more of a fact than an insult. Now that I have some time, let's take a look at how clueless you are:


You're wrong. How many times have we seen posts of high school clips in which the posters go "He's a beast!" Any player looks great when the opposing players are mediocre.

"Am I wrong? Am I wrong?" [/Walter Sobchak]This is one of the most brainless things I've ever heard somebody say. You just said that because someone thinks a high school player is good it somehow means they wouldn't notice the difference in skill level between a high school football game and a NFL game. This is funny for a couple of reasons. One, you assume people with a football brain don't instantly recognize the level of football skill they are watching. Two, you make yourself sound like someone who knows **** about this great game. Does your wife get tired of constantly having to explain why the players on offense can run laterally before a play, but not forward? Leave the football talk for the big boys.


I watch OU far more than I do the NFL, and the players in college football are not as good. According to your argument, college football should have very few fans because the players aren't as good.

It's really sad the type of **** you're willing to pull to convince yourself you're right. I mean this really came out of left field. You took the liberty to go ahead and make up that anything I said could be implied in any way, shape, or form as "college football should have very few fans." I'm calling it now, you are a longhorn. I've never been so sure of anything in my life. If you weren't willing to sell out at all costs to win an internet argument, the only thing you could have possibly said and still kept your self-respect would be that according to my argument, college football should have less fans. And guess what, boy genius?


All that matters is their relative skills, not overall skills. As long as teams are evenly matched and the players at least look competent the fans will be happy.

It's so sad what a loser you must be. I would bet bottom dollar that you've never had a speck of athletic ability. So again, if you have a woman's knowledge of football, please don't talk about football. And by your logic (insert nerdy Conan) we could swap out the NFL players with high school players, no would even notice, and the NFL would be just as popular. Now you know trying to twist everything in your favor can backfire.


You actually think the players have no part in the lockout? You actually think they are not greedy and are as innocent as a newborn baby?

You actually think I don't know the players are playing a part in the lockout? Show me where I said the players are pure as the driven snow. No, what I said was:

I'm fine with the players not accepting the bull**** the owners are offering. They are the people with some of the most valuable/profitable skill sets on the face of the planet.
The players have the right to be greedy. People will pay almost any amount of money to see the sport played at its highest level, and the players are the only people on earth who can do that.


Build a business and have a net worth of at least a half billion and you too can own a pro team and sit on your *** and collect more than half...

If you built a business worth a half billion dollars what return would you expect each and every year?

Wait, are you saying that the owners themselves built the NFL into what it is? If you were put in their position and couldn't make the money they made, you could probably **** up a free lunch. If every franchise was publicly owned like the Packers, how much different do you think NFL would be?


jerzee soner
your assumption makes an "***" out of you.

And your username makes you look like a really bad Sooner fan, which is kind of a hard thing to do.





For anyone who missed the meat of this wild and crazy ride, it boils down to this:


Don't you think the fans who have made these people super rich deserve a football season?


No. You've done nothing to deserve it.

The lowly lizard tries his very best to be better than the average person by taking the side of the owners. He really is trying with all his might. He takes things I say and turns them into something they never were. He says some of the silliest things imaginable if it can just somehow make his point of view sound better. I say the players have the valuable skill sets, and he calls me a Marxist because it sounds good. I say the fans and players yield the real power, and he calls me anti-capitalist because it sounds good. But in the end, the reality will always be that he's just some 45 year old dude, sitting on a computer, so caught up in playing devil's advocate and pretending to have a better brain than you that he can't recognize right from wrong. So I have one more question, little lizard. Who is more valuable, the players or the owners? And please, no more than a one word answer is requested.

[Leroy Lizard]

"Am I wrong? Am I wrong?" [/Walter Sobchak]This is one of the most brainless things I've ever heard somebody say. You just said that because someone thinks a high school player is good it somehow means they wouldn't notice the difference in skill level between a high school football game and a NFL game. This is funny for a couple of reasons. One, you assume people with a football brain don't instantly recognize the level of football skill they are watching.

No, I just figure that most NFL fans have your analytical skills.


You took the liberty to go ahead and make up that anything I said could be implied in any way, shape, or form as "college football should have very few fans." I'm calling it now, you are a longhorn.

You implied that football fans would not tolerate low-quality skills in players. So how you do explain the monstrous college football stadiums?

It's your argument, not mine.


It's so sad what a loser you must be. I would bet bottom dollar that you've never had a speck of athletic ability.

I get no respect, I tell ya.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_vY8I5HvOvk8/TBkhofaqQFI/AAAAAAAANAQ/yxixsMLkDsk/s1600/rodney_dangerfield.jpg


You actually think I don't know the players are playing a part in the lockout? Show me where I said the players are pure as the driven snow. No, what I said was:

The players have the right to be greedy. People will pay almost any amount of money to see the sport played at its highest level, and the players are the only people on earth who can do that.

Maybe, but without the owners they're playing down at the local park. (And making no money.)


Wait, are you saying that the owners themselves built the NFL into what it is?

Yes, they certainly did.


The lowly lizard tries his very best to be better than the average person by taking the side of the owners. He really is trying with all his might. He takes things I say and turns them into something they never were. He says some of the silliest things imaginable if it can just somehow make his point of view sound better. I say the players have the valuable skill sets, and he calls me a Marxist because it sounds good.

I say the fans and players yield the real power, and he calls me anti-capitalist because it sounds good.

I call you a Marxist because you are. Your notion that owners deserve less than the workers is very Marxist. The notion that the players should own the means of production is as Marxist as it gets -- in fact, it almost defines Marxism. And by suggesting that the players (workers) should make the lion's share of the profits while completely ignoring free market sensibilities is what gets you labeled a Marxist.

In our society, those who own the businesses typically make the most. The owners of NFL teams make the most and should make the most. Deal with it.


But in the end, the reality will always be that he's just some 45 year old dude (I wish I was only 45), sitting on a computer, so caught up in playing devil's advocate and pretending to have a better brain than you that he can't recognize right from wrong. So I have one more question, little lizard. Who is more valuable, the players or the owners? And please, no more than a one word answer is requested.

So far it doesn't seem as if anyone is siding with you in this argument. People know a Marxist viewpoint when they see it.

EDIT: I shouldn't have called you a Marxist. But you certainly have very heavy Marxist leanings on this issue.

[jersey sooner]

No, I just figure that most NFL fans have your analytical skills.

I'm not sure if this was meant to be an insult on my knowledge of football, but if it was don't even bother going there.


You implied that football fans would not tolerate low-quality skills in players.

Enough with this ****ing putting-words-in-my-mouth horse**** already. It is getting really ****ing old.


True, but the dude off the street looks like AD when dudes off the street are trying to tackle him. It's all relative.

Maybe to a jackass like you who doesn't know the game of football. But don't assume real football fans wouldn't know the difference.

You're wrong. How many times have we seen posts of high school clips in which the posters go "He's a beast!" Any player looks great when the opposing players are mediocre.
I watch OU far more than I do the NFL, and the players in college football are not as good. According to your argument, college football should have very few fans because the players aren't as good.
All that matters is their relative skills, not overall skills. As long as teams are evenly matched and the players at least look competent the fans will be happy.

Where in the name of Bud Wilkinson did I imply "football fans wouldn't tolerate low-quality skills in players"? Maybe you were confused by what I was addressing. I was saying not to insult the intelligence of people with real football brains by saying someone off the street could pass as AD. And you're the only one implying things around here. You implied people wouldn't notice the difference between professional skill and high school skill, and I ripped that to shreds. Then you implied skill level wouldn't make a difference, and then I ripped that to shreds.


So how you do explain the monstrous college football stadiums?

Watch how good our team is this year and tell me if they are "low-quality skill" players. This is why whenever the great debate of paying these kids comes up, and the always predictable and weak claim "they're only amateurs!" is used, I laugh. Nothing about what these kids do is "amateur."


Maybe, but without the owners they're playing down at the local park. (And making no money.)

I highly doubt that.


Yes, they certainly did.

Yea because it certainly couldn't have been all the players that continued to play the game at it's highest possible level or all the fans who have been loyal to their teams year after year. It must have been the owners who decided $15 is what a cup of beer will cost at the games.


I call you a Marxist because you are. Your notion that owners deserve less than the workers is very Marxist. The notion that the players should own the means of production is as Marxist as it gets -- in fact, it almost defines Marxism. And by suggesting that the players (workers) should make the lion's share of the profits while completely ignoring free market sensibilities is what gets you labeled a Marxist.

Ok, so everyone who wears a red shirt is a blood, right? By your logic! By your logic! By your logic! We're back to the whole twisting things in your favor thing. I'm not calling for the entire working class of society to rise up and engulf the bourgeoisie. What you just refuse to acknowledge though is that the players are more than just "workers." They possess some of the most specialized and highly advanced set of skills in the world, which are also some of the most profitable. This isn't the ****ing Walmart workforce where if you don't like the money you make, there's 5 million people who can replace you. THESE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE ON THE FACE OF THE PLANET WHO CAN PLAY THE GAME AT IT'S HIGHEST LEVEL, WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE WILLINGLY PAY ABSURD AMOUNTS OF MONEY TO SEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


In our society, those who own the businesses typically make the most. The owners of NFL teams make the most and should make the most. Deal with it.

You are stupid wrong about this.


I shouldn't have called you a Marxist.

No you shouldn't have. But at least you didn't call me a longhorn.

[Sabanball]

Good! I 100% support the owners. It's about time these guys learn what's it's like to live in the real world. Also, with no NFL in fall 2011 that means the college game will get more exposure, which is ok with me!

[jersey sooner]

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/00b764ed52.jpg

[Leroy Lizard]

Where in the name of Bud Wilkinson did I imply "football fans wouldn't tolerate low-quality skills in players"?

If they will tolerate low-quality skills in players then what the **** is your argument?

The point you were making is that the players deserve the credit for the NFL's popularity because they are so skilled. You pretty much have to admit then that the fans must think seeing the highest quality skilled performers is important.


Maybe you were confused by what I was addressing. I was saying not to insult the intelligence of people with real football brains by saying someone off the street could pass as AD.

You made a big ole' stink out of it as if was really important. Now you're trying to back out of it.

Face it. Fans will watch NFL games even if the players are not as good as the current crop as long as the games are competitive. College athletes are not as good as NFL players but people still watch the games. In fact, the largest stadiums in the country are mostly devoted to college football.


Watch how good our team is this year and tell me if they are "low-quality skill" players.

In comparison to the NFL? Absolutely they are.


This is why whenever the great debate of paying these kids comes up, and the always predictable and weak claim "they're only amateurs!" is used, I laugh. Nothing about what these kids do is "amateur."

If OU played any NFL team it would lose badly. There is no comparison.

They are in fact amateurs. Yes, the very best players on OU could step onto an NFL team and start, but that would be maybe two or three players, not 22.

But people still love to see them play. Why? Because the other teams' talent is no better, so the games are competitive.


Yea because it certainly couldn't have been all the players that continued to play the game at it's highest possible level or all the fans who have been loyal to their teams year after year. It must have been the owners who decided $15 is what a cup of beer will cost at the games.

The NFL is all about marketing and capital. Without the owners, there is no NFL.


Ok, so everyone who wears a red shirt is a blood, right?

No, because the color of a shirt is not a defining characteristic of Marxism. Economic theory, especially tied to workers-versus-owners struggle is a defining characteristic of Marxism. Your logic is very Marxist because it is tied to a workers-own-the-means-of-production philosophy.

You are wrong when you say that NFL players are not ordinary workers because they possess advanced skills. Maybe in Neanderthal times being able to carry a rock faster than someone else and being able to drag another man down was an advanced skill, but not today. NFL players are workers, just like any other workers. If one retires, he's replaced. NFL owners have never had a problem replacing them, have they?

[Leroy Lizard]

JerseySooner thinks that the man below, who couldn't spell his own name even if you spotted him the "V," "I," and "N," deserves more money than Daniel Snyder.

http://cdn.everyjoe.com/files/2009/06/vince-young-ultimatum-20081214_zaf_i88_135.jpg

I mean, look at him! He's a moron.

[pphilfran]

Any thoughts on this?

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/feed/2011-01/2011-nfl-draft/story/report-nflpa-asks-rookies-to-boycott-the-draft?icid=maing|main5|dl4|sec3_lnk1|49991

The draft was one of the NFL's few offseason activities expected to go on as usual in the midst of the labor impasse between the owners and players, but now it seems even that event could be affected.

The NFL Players Association on Monday asked the top college prospects not to attend the April 28-30 draft at Radio City Music Hall in New York, according to ESPN.

Normally, the NFL invites a dozen or so of the top players to New York. Those players wait back stage until NFL commissioner Roger Goodell announces their selections. Then they walk out on stage, shake the commish's hand and are available for photo-ops and interviews with the league's TV partners, ESPN and the NFL Network, and other assembled media.

"We plan to invite the 15-20 top prospects and their families to New York as we normally do for this once-in-a-lifetime experience," the NFL said in a statement released Monday after hearing of the NFLPA's plan. "And, as always, it is the decision of the players and their families as to whether they attend."

If the NFLPA has its way, Goodell won't be shaking hands with any draft picks in New York. The Players Association--now operating as a "trade association" in the wake of decertification of the union last week--already has contacted 17 top prospects who could receive invitations to attend the draft in New York and urged them not to attend.

"As of right now, this is 100 percent happening," a source told ESPN. "This is going down."

The Players Association might even attempt to get the players to appear on a competing network to do post-draft interviews or on a social media platform only.

Look at it this way: If this plan does go down, at least we won't have to watch some poor player suffer for hours in the green room, waiting for his name to be called. It happens almost every year.

[Leroy Lizard]

So the poor and unemployed get to carry the torch for the millionaire ball players. Yeah, that sounds about right.

[Aries]

Bernie Miklasz article (St. Louis sports columnist), makes more sense than anything I've read from him in years. This, and AD's statement are quickly turning a good deal of public support away from the players.

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/bernie-miklasz/article_1f3ef9c6-4f15-11e0-adb6-00127992bc8b.html

Bernie Bytes: NFLPA is losing ... its mind

If the NFL Players Association is serious about asking potential first-round picks to boycott the NFL Draft, it will go down as a ridiculous and cold-hearted demand. Reprehensible, really.

The NFLPA is already showing signs of backing away from this, so we'll wait and see what they come up with. But it doesn't matter. Too late. This attempt to bully draft picks is pathetic on many levels.

Here's why:

1. Didn't the NFLPA just decertify in preparation for the legal battle against the owners? The NFLPA says its not a union. But it wants to give orders to rookie players? Either it's a union or not a union -- can't have it both ways. Actually this arrogance would strengthen the owners' claim that this is a "sham" decertification.

2. The players who are drafted won't become union members until (A) they sign contracts; (B) there is a union. And these kids aren't union members. So where does a non-existent union get off in telling non-union college draftees what to do? This is Alice in Wonderland insanity.

3. This is a cruel thing to do to these young players. This is supposed to be one of the biggest nights in their lives. After all of the practices, training, ups and downs, injuries, studying and preparing, they deserve to have a wonderful night on that stage in New York, introduced to the football nation, with proud parents, family members and friends looking on. Why take that away from them? They have no role in this idiotic dispute between the owners and players. So why force them to make a choice? Why make them pawns? The NFLPA needs to settle its business with the owners. Placing these kids in the middle of the labor crossfire is incredibly selfish and mean spirited.

4. This could create problems in the locker room: suppose the first-rounders show up in NY at the NFL's official draft show, get introduced and pose for the traditional photo with commissioner Rodger Goodell? This could cause resentment among veteran players when the rookies become part of their new team, and locker-room culture. Veterans may view the rookies as guys who crossed a picket line. It would be unfair and stupid to do so, but such pettiness is probably inevitable. Again: there is no union, and the rookies aren't members of the union that doesn't exist. So why would they be guilty of crossing a picket line? And if you care about these young men at all, why would you put them in such a thankless position?

5. As part of the negotiations with the owners, the NFLPA agreed to drastically cut the amount of guaranteed money given to first-round draft picks. So here you have the NFLPA undercutting these rookie players even before they enter the league -- agreeing with the owners who want to take money away from rookies -- and yet the "union" has the gall to boss the rookies around in an attempt to cheat them out of their big night at the draft? The NFLPA doesn't want the rooks to walk across the stage and shake Goodell's hand? Well, when the NFLPA makes the deal with the owners to cut the rookies' money, they'll be shaking hands with Goodell on it. The hypocrisy is hilarious.

Finally: this is a dumb move from a public-relations standpoint. The NFLPA should be doing everything it can to curry favor with the fans, embrace the fans, show kindness to the fans at this volatile time. Fans love the draft. And if you take it away from them in its traditional form, this will create a tremendous backlash against the NFLPA.

Besides, nothing will gained by damaging the draft ceremony. It's not as if the rookies' presence at the draft is going to undermine the NFLPA in its negotiations. It won't matter at all. So there's no benefit to the NFLPA to keep the top draft picks away from the draft. There will be a deal eventually, one way or another. So it's important for the players and the owners to do all that they can to maintain the league's popularity. Both sides want a healthy game to come back to. So its in both sides' interest to keep the fans fired up about the draft. The same fans that made the draft's popularity what it is today.

Don't mess with that.

[jersey sooner]

The draft boycott is a really bad idea. Don't let all this silliness take away from these kids the single biggest moment that symbolizes they have made it.