Wisconsin Senate Democrats Rushing Back - Too Late!

[soonercruiser]

Just heard a Fox news flash!!!!
The repugs in Wisconsin pulled the "financial" language from the labor union bill. (they therefore did not need a quorum for the vote)
And, the bill just passed!

I'll bet those Dems are flyin' back over the border!
And, the protesters are back!
TOO LATE!!! :P

[Sooner5030]

good jorb WI legislatures that participated in their elected duty. Why did it take so long?

[soonercruiser]

good jorb WI legislatures that participated in their elected duty. Why did it take so long?

At least the Dems can't say they didn't have an opportunity to read the bill or vote!
They were being begged back by the Gov. for weeks!

[soonerhubs]

This whole leaving the state because you don't agree on something feels way lame!

What would the public think if the Republicans would have left the country back in 09 instead of having to watch the super-majority pass Obamacare? Would that have been plausible?

[sooner59]

This whole leaving the state because you don't agree on something feels way lame!

What would the public think if the Republicans would have left the country back in 09 instead of having to watch the super-majority pass Obamacare? Would that have been plausible?

I agree. That is bush league. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But what they did was just childish.

[KABOOKIE]

I agree. That is obama league. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But what they did was just childish.

FIFY

[sappstuf]

My favorite quote from one of the Fleebaggers:


What Republicans did was an affront to democracy.

Oh irony thy name is Chris Larson!

http://radprofile.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/img_35.gif

[REDREX]

Michael Moore is an idiot

[jdsooner]

A sad day in America.

[okie52]

How are you doing Red?

[okie52]

A sad day in America.

I can barely hold back the tears.

[REDREX]

Working too hard--- $100 crude creates a lot of opportunities and a lot of problems

[sappstuf]

I can barely hold back the tears.

:)

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Awww....was kind of hoping they'd stay ultra-unionized, it helps us free labor states :P

[StoopTroup]

I think the Dems did exactly what they had to do. There was no way to stop the bill anyway and what happens up there as a result of the Pubs pushing the legislation is on them completely. It might look like a win but it will be interesting to see just how many Pubs are in office after the next elections.

If the Pubs were just going to force it...why didn't they do it right off the bat?

[soonercruiser]

A sad day in America.

"Oh, Happy Day"!
(Democracy in action)
:D

[StoopTroup]

Awww....was kind of hoping they'd stay ultra-unionized, it helps us free labor states :P

One thing I know for a fact....what just happened...

It won't help you one bit.

[REDREX]

I think the Dems did exactly what they had to do. There was no way to stop the bill anyway and what happens up there as a result of the Pubs pushing the legislation is on them completely. It might look like a win but it will be interesting to see just how many Pubs are in office after the next elections.

If the Pubs were just going to force it...why didn't they do it right off the bat?--- They should have

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

One thing I know for a fact....what just happened...

It won't help you one bit.
Well I'm sure Wisconsin's business taxes are quite larger than ours and they're still unionized so....not too much.

[StoopTroup]

Well I'm sure Wisconsin's business taxes are quite larger than ours and they're still unionized so....not too much.

So you think they are still Unionized?

You're amazing. You should run for Governor.

[soonercruiser]

I think the Dems did exactly what they had to do. There was no way to stop the bill anyway and what happens up there as a result of the Pubs pushing the legislation is on them completely. It might look like a win but it will be interesting to see just how many Pubs are in office after the next elections.

If the Pubs were just going to force it...why didn't they do it right off the bat?

For the most part, Repugs are:
1. More kind and fair.
and...
2. Weak kneed weenies! :O

[StoopTroup]

For the most part, Repugs are:
1. More kind and fair.
and...


You're delusional. There is no such thing in politics.

[okie52]

:)

Maybe you and Red can make it to the city for a beer summit....

[OklahomaTuba]

Nice. NPR and the public union movement starting to collapse all in the same day.

So when can we finally get this same thing done in Oklahoma? Shoulda happened yesterday. That and vouchers.

[Ike]

Why did it take so long?


I kinda wonder this too. Did it take them this long to figure this out?

[StoopTroup]

Nice. NPR and the public union movement starting to collapse all in the same day.

So when can we finally get this same thing done in Oklahoma? Shoulda happened yesterday. That and vouchers.

Well....that's just the thing Tuba. It's easy to say we should have done something like this here but you suddenly add we should add vouchers.

I don't think that's what happened up there is it? maybe I'm wrong but did that bill allow for vouchers? I thought all it did was just allow the Governor to decide how much and what the employees get paid and recieve in benefits? It's being done to help balance the budget is what I thought he was doing. It's not about allowing Wisconsin Residents to use vouchers at Private Schools. You act like he's suddenly found money....i didn't think that was the case.

PS: I could care less about NPR. Also...Is PBS here is Oklahoma Gov't or State Funded?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I got word that something similar brewing in Florida. any Florida Sooners out there?

[StoopTroup]

If you really want to get down to the real meat....lets get rid of all the Non-Profit Entities that have anyone employed that makes more than $25,000 per year.

[sappstuf]

I guess the PEUs in Wisconsin will have to learn how to live with the same exact rights as the PEUs in 25 other states and for the federal government.....

http://greencelebrity.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Lone-Indian-Crying-over-American-sustainable-future-photo_credit-athletics-nation.jpg

[sappstuf]

Maybe you and Red can make it to the city for a beer summit....

I will certainly let you know the next time I make it up Edmond way.

[StoopTroup]

I guess the PEUs in Wisconsin will have to learn how to live with the same exact rights as the PEUs in 25 other states and for the federal government.....

http://greencelebrity.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Lone-Indian-Crying-over-American-sustainable-future-photo_credit-athletics-nation.jpg

Are they that much different? I don't understand.

[StoopTroup]

Nice. NPR and the public union movement starting to collapse all in the same day.

So when can we finally get this same thing done in Oklahoma? Shoulda happened yesterday. That and vouchers.

Guess it's just another Drive-by. :rolleyes:

[MamaMia]

Wis. GOP bypasses Dems, cuts collective bargaining

By SCOTT BAUER, Associated Press Scott Bauer, Associated Press
50 mins ago

MADISON, Wis. – The Wisconsin Senate succeeded in voting Wednesday to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from public workers, after Republicans outmaneuvered the chamber's missing Democrats and approved an explosive proposal that has rocked the state and unions nationwide.

"You are cowards!" spectators in the Senate gallery screamed as lawmakers voted. Within hours, a crowd of a few hundred protesters inside the Capitol had grown to an estimated 7,000, more than had been in the building at any point during weeks of protests.

"The whole world is watching!" they shouted as they pressed up against the heavily guarded entrance to the Senate chamber.

All 14 Senate Democrats fled to Illinois nearly three weeks ago, preventing the chamber from having enough members present to consider Gov. Scott Walker's "budget-repair bill" — a proposal introduced to plug a $137 million budget shortfall.

The Senate requires a quorum to take up any measure that spends money. But Republicans on Wednesday took all the spending measures out of Walker's proposal and a special committee of lawmakers from both the Senate and Assembly approved the revised bill a short time later.

The unexpected yet surprisingly simple procedural move ended a stalemate that had threatened to drag on indefinitely. Until Wednesday's stunning vote, it appeared the standoff would persist until Democrats returned to Madison from their self-imposed exile.

"In 30 minutes, 18 state senators undid 50 years of civil rights in Wisconsin. Their disrespect for the people of Wisconsin and their rights is an outrage that will never be forgotten," said Democratic Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller. "Tonight, 18 Senate Republicans conspired to take government away from the people."

The state Assembly previously approved the original proposal and was set to consider the new measure on Thursday. Miller said in an interview with The Associated Press there is nothing Democrats can do now to stop the bill: "It's a done deal."

The lone Democrat on the special committee, Assembly Minority Leader Peter Barca, shouted during the meeting that it was a violation of the state's open meetings law. The Senate's chief clerk said hours later the meeting was properly held.

The Senate convened within minutes of the committee meeting and passed the measure 18-1 without discussion or debate. Republican Sen. Dale Schultz cast the lone no vote.

"The jig is now up," Barca said. "The fraud on the people of Wisconsin is now clear."

Walker had repeatedly argued that collective bargaining was a budget issue, because his proposed changes would give local governments the flexibility to confront budget cuts needed to close the state's $3.6 billion deficit. He has said that without the changes, he may have needed to lay off 1,500 state workers and make other cuts to balance the budget.

Walker said Wednesday night that Democrats had three weeks to debate the bill and were offered repeated opportunities to come back, but refused.

"I applaud the Legislature's action today to stand up to the status quo and take a step in the right direction to balance the budget and reform government," Walker said in the statement.

The measure approved Wednesday forbids most government workers from collectively bargaining for wage increases beyond the rate of inflation. It also requires public workers to pay more toward their pensions and double their health insurance contribution, a combination equivalent to an 8 percent pay cut for the average worker.

Police and firefighters are exempt.

Walker's proposal touched off a national debate over union rights for public employees and its implementation would be a key victory for Republicans, many of whom have targeted public employee unions amid efforts to slash government spending. Similar collective bargaining restrictions are making their way through Ohio's Legislature, while several other states are debating measures to curb the power of unions in smaller doses.

Tens of thousands of demonstrators have converged on Wisconsin's capital city for three weeks of protests, some of which prompted school districts to cancel classes due to teacher absences.

Within hours of Wednesday night's vote, protesters had seized the Capitol's lower floors, creating an ear-splitting free-for-all of pounding drums, horns and whistles. Police all but gave up guarding the building entrances. But Wisconsin teachers unions urged their members to go to work on Thursday rather than join in the re-energized demonstrations.

Wednesday's drama unfolded less than four hours after Walker met with GOP senators in a closed-door meeting. He emerged from the meeting saying senators were "firm" in their support of the bill.

For weeks, Democrats had offered concessions on issues other than the bargaining rights and they spent much of Wednesday again calling on Walker and Republicans to compromise.

Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald said earlier that Republicans had been discussing concessions offered by Walker, including allowing public workers to bargain over their salaries without a wage limit. Several GOP senators facing recall efforts had also publicly called for a compromise.

"The people of Wisconsin elected us to come to Madison and do a job," Fitzgerald said in a statement after the vote. "Just because the Senate Democrats won't do theirs, doesn't mean we won't do ours."

Union leaders weren't happy with Walker's offer, and were furious at the Senate's move to push the measure forward with a quick vote. Phil Neuenfeldt, president of the Wisconsin state AFL-CIO, said after Wednesday's vote that Republicans exercised a "nuclear option."

"Scott Walker and the Republicans' ideological war on the middle class and working families is now indisputable," Neuenfeldt said.

While talks had been going on sporadically behind the scenes, Republicans in the Senate also had publicly tried to ratchet up pressure on Democrats to return. They had agreed earlier Wednesday to start fining Democrats $100 for each day legislative session day they miss.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

[StoopTroup]

Nice article Mama.

Just heard Greta Van Sustren on Fox say that the Dems were unhappy that the pubs broke on some assembly rules that have been around for years instead of working to find a way to stop the stalemate.

[hawaii 5-0]

Gov. Walker said it was all about the money to balance the budget. Turned out it had nothing to do with the money. It was all about union busting. The Wisconsin folks will have a recall vote and throw Walker out on his ear in a year. But first several Republican stooges will get canned before then.


5-0

[StoopTroup]

It was always about Union busting.....people tried to point that out as everyone of his financial cuts had been met. The reason the Dems left was that they knew he could push the bill through like a bully and eventually he did.

I know if I say this is a sad Day...some folks will think I say that because he busted the Union but it's not. I'm scared about what happens when the Liberals take power and take the stance that it's not their fault on a issue they are in love with and just bully it through.

These politicians need to be held accountable to the people. If the People had voted on giving away the Contractual Bargaining rights....I'd feel that at least the people got what they felt would be good for their State.

What we see here is a guy that can just decide to make any change he wants if it's popular with 18 guys.

Pretty scary IMO

[SanJoaquinSooner]

All eyes on the Florida State Legislature; new Tea Party loving governor, huge republican majority. The winds of change are a blowin'.

Look for teachers unions to be neutered, 6700 gov't employees will be furloughed, cancellation of the state regulatory agency that oversees growth and development, transfer of public monies to private schools (i.e., religious schools), cancellation of programs for the poor, transfer of Medicaid to private insurers who will decide who gets healthcare and who doesn't. Oh yeah, and you'll pay less taxes if you actually have sufficient income. Could be some good old fashioned class warfare. Will be interesting to see the dullards who run Florida's Democratic party can figure out how to take advantage of it. Probably they can't.

[StoopTroup]

I've seen some of these Contractual Agreements and read pages and pages of them only to hear one side argue with the otherside about what they really meant when they bargained for them. It's ridiculous too as getting along and putting an end to a stalemate most usually benefits both sides. The last decade I've seen one side put the other one off in hopes that a Scott Walker who come along and allow them to just put an end to bargaining in this Country. If both sides suffer I'd be a bit more optimistic but we've been able to accomplish so many things in this country by learning to get along and share the success when Companies did well. We have watched as Corporate Raiders had their day until Financial Gurus figured out how to position the Companies Worth so that raiders wouldn't find them attractive. We have watched others take risks on people knowing they would be forced to pay the debt or the Country be ruined. We have watched Internet Companies grow fast and be overvalued and then suddenly disappear. Money disappear in the blink of an eye. People lose a lifetime of hard work to a law or a tax. Inheritances disappear as taxes. Credit Card Companies rape customers. Cell Phone and Cable providers rape their customers...

The volatility of these financial transactions is incredible and extremely difficult to follow. Some math/computer whizzes set up databases that take advantage of trends so fast that not even a group of MIT's best could figure out what happened in the last 8 hours.

Yes Technology is amazing.....but it seems to be amazingly misused too.

Hopefully we can all count on the human condition and for people to do what is right before chaos ensues. I love this Country but I'm convinced that not everyone is playing by the same rules.

[Leroy Lizard]

Gov. Walker said it was all about the money to balance the budget. Turned out it had nothing to do with the money. It was all about union busting. The Wisconsin folks will have a recall vote and throw Walker out on his ear in a year. But first several Republican stooges will get canned before then.

You sound like an Aggie. "Wait'll next year!"


It might look like a win but it will be interesting to see just how many Pubs are in office after the next elections.

You too.

[soonerhubs]

ST: Did the super-majority last year not do the same "bullying" with the Healthcare law? It works both ways. At least this WI "bullying" kills a few of the Orwellian pigs.

[tcrb]

It was always about Union busting.....people tried to point that out as everyone of his financial cuts had been met. The reason the Dems left was that they knew he could push the bill through like a bully and eventually he did.

I know if I say this is a sad Day...some folks will think I say that because he busted the Union but it's not. I'm scared about what happens when the Liberals take power and take the stance that it's not their fault on a issue they are in love with and just bully it through.

These politicians need to be held accountable to the people. If the People had voted on giving away the Contractual Bargaining rights....I'd feel that at least the people got what they felt would be good for their State.

What we see here is a guy that can just decide to make any change he wants if it's popular with 18 guys.

Pretty scary IMO

Kinda like they did last year with Health Care Reform?

[StoopTroup]

ST: Did the super-majority last year not do the same "bullying" with the Healthcare law? It works both ways. At least this WI "bullying" kills a few of the Orwellian pigs.

Yep. And did the Pubs feel just as ostracized as the 14 Dems in Wisconsin?

I'm not saying either is right to walk or posture themselves so they are shut out.....I'm saying it's what is continuing to cause stand offs like we are seeing. I'm not sure we need a law to stop it either. What both sides seem to fear is a shut down of their Government and We the People need to quit giving them the idea that we are OK with them not getting along and not finding common ground that will continue to show why this Country is a great place to raise a Family and fight for our Freedom and Liberty.

Thing is....once they shutdown and they can't do anything except point fingers at each other....it doesn't do any good. It never has.

I guess my answer is....it doesn't make it right and it isn't something to crow about. It's a picture of just how sad the left and the right have become.

[sappstuf]

Are they that much different? I don't understand.

The Wisconsin PEUs had the ability to do things that the federal government PEUs and PEUs in 25 other states could not do. Now they pretty much have the same rights.

That is not union busting and it isn't outrageous.

I know this because when Obama unilaterally froze pay for civilians in the federal government late last year, I didn't hear a peep from unions saying he was acting unfairly.

A governor of a state should have the same ability. Now Scott Walker does.

[StoopTroup]

The Wisconsin PEUs had the ability to do things that the federal government PEUs and PEUs in 25 other states could not do. Now they pretty much have the same rights.

That is not union busting and it isn't outrageous.

I know this because when Obama unilaterally froze pay for civilians in the federal government late last year, I didn't hear a peep from unions saying he was acting unfairly.

A governor of a state should have the same ability. Now Scott Walker does.

So why was getting rid of collective bargaining so important to Gov. Walker?

And are you saying those other 25 States still have the right to Collectively Bargain?

Maybe I just don't understand the idea of "The ability to do things".

[soonerhubs]

Yep. And did the Pubs feel just as ostracized as the 14 Dems in Wisconsin?

I'm not saying either is right to walk or posture themselves so they are shut out.....I'm saying it's what is continuing to cause stand offs like we are seeing. I'm not sure we need a law to stop it either. What both sides seem to fear is a shut down of their Government and We the People need to quit giving them the idea that we are OK with them not getting along and not finding common ground that will continue to show why this Country is a great place to raise a Family and fight for our Freedom and Liberty.

Thing is....once they shutdown and they can't do anything except point fingers at each other....it doesn't do any good. It never has.

I guess my answer is....it doesn't make it right and it isn't something to crow about. It's a picture of just how sad the left and the right have become.


Excellent post! I agree that both sides have become hostile. It's going to take quite the transcending mediator to make these sides embrace civility, though.

So far, the executive branches have failed to be mediators at all.

[sappstuf]

So why was getting rid of collective bargaining so important to Gov. Walker?

And are you saying those other 25 States still have the right to Collectively Bargain?

To allow the state and local governments more flexibility if fiscal crisis like the one we are going through now. Just like Obama froze pay increases to save money.

No they never had the right. Neither do workers for the federal government.

[EnragedOUfan]

I personally have nothing against the Democrats for bailing out. When 60 plus percent of the state was against Gov. Walker's decision, to me that tells you something. One thing I do know is that being a teacher is going to sh$t, seriously. Why would anyone in their right mind want to be a teacher knowing that them and education will always be the number target when it comes to cuts? Its pretty sad. Our children will probably start to see the effects from this in about 10 years, unless you can afford to place your kids in a private school. Otherwise, if you're in a public education school system, good luck.......

[47straight]

So why was getting rid of collective bargaining so important to Gov. Walker?



He just wanted to make Wisconsin in line with the federal government.

[hawaii 5-0]

Leroy, you sound like a corporate Koch Brother.

Me, I'm just a hard working middle class guy trying to survive.


5-0

[Turd_Ferguson]

Our children will probably start to see the effects from this in about 10 years, unless you can afford to place your kids in a private school. Otherwise, if you're in a public education school system, good luck.......That's the funniest thing I've read in the last hour.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

ST: Did the super-majority last year not do the same "bullying" with the Healthcare law? It works both ways. At least this WI "bullying" kills a few of the Orwellian pigs.

They didn't have a supermajority to pass Obamacare after pickup guy in Mass was elected, so they used parliamentary tactics to get it through with a simple majority. Pretty much the same thing the legislature in Wisky just did.

[StoopTroup]

To allow the state and local governments more flexibility if fiscal crisis like the one we are going through now. Just like Obama froze pay increases to save money.

No they never had the right. Neither do workers for the federal government.

I'll whole heartedly agree that nobody has the right to bargain. That ended when Reagan told the Control Tower Folks to get back to work or go to jail.

You and I will never agree as you have made up your mind that other's should suffer the fate of the rest of those in the hand of the Government. I know that not everyone suffers. It's only a select few and this time it's hard working Americans. The Middle Class in America continues to take it on the chin and the idea that some Govenor can come in cut staff cut wages and benefits and later create a voucher system to cure all of the ills of his State by privitizing the Schools is probably more of what is going on. I know something needed to be done up there but I really think this about more than fixing the budget.

It serves to make you feel good I guess.

[SoCaliSooner]

Why would anyone in their right mind want to be a teacher knowing that them and education will always be the number target when it comes to cuts? Its pretty sad. Our children will probably start to see the effects from this in about 10 years, unless you can afford to place your kids in a private school. Otherwise, if you're in a public education school system, good luck.......
The educational system rarely sees cuts. Usually it's a reduction in the increase in spending for the next year, but it's rarely an actual cut. Also, public schools across the country have been serving up a crap product for decades yet nobody is actually held accountable.

My folks struggled to send six kids through private school and we're sending our kids through private school. You only get one chance to get your kid an education and I don't think a state agency or union watering down educational requirements to make it easier for teachers or idiot students has my kids best interest in mind.

[StoopTroup]

He just wanted to make Wisconsin in line with the federal government.

I thought it was about fixing his budget crisis? Again.....I won't say that maybe didn't need to happen....I say it's funny he had to create a crisis to get it done. People will lose trust in him and hopefully it won't get worse when he falls out of power. I know so many folks think he did the right thing but I still stand that forcing these issues isn't the will of the people. I'm not sure the people know what they want anymore either....but his actions serve as the face of things to come for all of us and there isn't any calm heads....you can expect the 60's or worse to start a new. God I hope it doesn't. One of those was enough.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Government needs to get out of the school business. Shouldn't have been there in the first place IMO.

[StoopTroup]

The educational system rarely sees cuts. Usually it's a reduction in the increase in spending for the next year, but it's rarely an actual cut. Also, public schools across the country have been serving up a crap product for decades yet nobody is actually held accountable.

My folks struggled to send six kids through private school and we're sending our kids through private school. You only get one chance to get your kid an education and I don't think a state agency or union watering down educational requirements to make it easier for teachers or idiot students has my kids best interest in mind.

So this this really gets down to the idea that all of our Schools should have this happen and that we need to suddenly turn it all inside out and get rid of the idiots who have been teaching our Children?

You see...as I continue to state....this was all more than a Financial Crisis in Wisconsin. It's about taking God out of School and rules people don't like that have affected their children. It's about getting rid of the poor and down trodden children who's parents don't have jobs to be able to send their kids to a Private School. Government will never be out of Education unless you want to pay for it and send your kids to a Private School. All that will happen is riots and civil disobedience.

Maybe that's what it takes to pound it all Home. The ones that suffer are the kids as we continue to argue about it all and watch one guy send it all into a swirling pile of **** that none of us really has any control over.

[Aldebaran]

The educational system rarely sees cuts. Usually it's a reduction in the increase in spending for the next year, but it's rarely an actual cut. Also, public schools across the country have been serving up a crap product for decades yet nobody is actually held accountable.

My folks struggled to send six kids through private school and we're sending our kids through private school. You only get one chance to get your kid an education and I don't think a state agency or union watering down educational requirements to make it easier for teachers or idiot students has my kids best interest in mind.

Nobody cares what you think Mr. Sheen.

Besides. You come from California. Where they spend $800,000 a year to jail a half paralized 50 year old so he isn't a danger to society. And that is just a microcosm of a state that spends nearly as much on corrections as it does on higher education. You people value jail cells almost as much as you value people with college degrees.

[SoCaliSooner]

Nobody cares what you think Mr. Sheen.

Besides. You come from California. Where they spend $800,000 a year to jail a half paralized 50 year old so he isn't a danger to society. And that is just a microcosm of a state that spends nearly as much on corrections as it does on higher education. You people value jail cells almost as much as you value people with college degrees.

We also lead the nation in section 8 housing, and funding/services for illegals. Blame the lefties who control the state who want inmates to receive the top notch in orthopedic surgery, dentistry and medical care.

California, much to the chagrin of the ACLU, removed tobacco use from all prisons to cut down on the long term health care costs. California is also obligated for all costs of an inmate going through a sex change operation. If the inmate was starting ANY form of treatment, including a simple consultation, the state is on the hook to pay for the entire surgery and hormone therapy from start to finish. We wouldn't want "Jill" doing all her time in prison as a "Jim".

Again, these spending sprees on inmates aren't coming from the conservatives. It's coming from the lefties....

[REDREX]

I personally have nothing against the Democrats for bailing out. When 60 plus percent of the state was against Gov. Walker's decision, to me that tells you something. One thing I do know is that being a teacher is going to sh$t, seriously. Why would anyone in their right mind want to be a teacher knowing that them and education will always be the number target when it comes to cuts? Its pretty sad. Our children will probably start to see the effects from this in about 10 years, unless you can afford to place your kids in a private school. Otherwise, if you're in a public education school system, good luck.......---Public education has been going down the drain for years---Making teachers pay for part of their health insurance and retirement costs will put them in line with most of the country----just a side note, Milwaukee (which is in Wisc) has some of the worst test scores in the country

[Turd_Ferguson]

Nobody cares what you think Mr. Sheen.

Besides. You come from California. Where they spend $800,000 a year to jail a half paralized 50 year old so he isn't a danger to society. And that is just a microcosm of a state that spends nearly as much on corrections as it does on higher education. You people value jail cells almost as much as you value people with college degrees.:D:D:D:D Sounds like a typical lib get'n his panties in a wad...:D:D:D

[StoopTroup]

Government needs to get out of the school business. Shouldn't have been there in the first place IMO.

lol.....just wave your hand Turd and make it all go away.

[Aldebaran]

So you're saying that government shouldn't be responsible for protecting the gender identity of it's own inmates?! This is madness.

[MamaMia]

Walker gave those Dem's 3 weeks to get their 14 collective asses back to the capital and argue their point. They failed to do so. Walker finally did what he needed to do in order to help their state budget. Good for him! The unions still have the right to collective bargaining when it comes to their salaries.

With this bill, the unions wont be able to automatically deduct union dues and the members will have to pay more toward their health care, however the private sector, who is footing the bill for all these perks is still paying a whole lot more toward their own, even though, as a whole, they make a lot less money. If the workers want to pay union dues, then thats their choice now.

The republicans should have pulled out the right to work law and passed that too.


Why I'm Fighting in Wisconsin

We can avoid mass teacher layoffs and reward our best performers. But we have to act now.

By SCOTT WALKER

In 2010, Megan Sampson was named an Outstanding First Year Teacher in Wisconsin. A week later, she got a layoff notice from the Milwaukee Public Schools. Why would one of the best new teachers in the state be one of the first let go? Because her collective-bargaining contract requires staffing decisions to be made based on seniority.

Ms. Sampson got a layoff notice because the union leadership would not accept reasonable changes to their contract. Instead, they hid behind a collective-bargaining agreement that costs the taxpayers $101,091 per year for each teacher, protects a 0% contribution for health-insurance premiums, and forces schools to hire and fire based on seniority and union rules.

My state's budget-repair bill, which passed the Assembly on Feb. 25 and awaits a vote in the Senate, reforms this union-controlled hiring and firing process by allowing school districts to assign staff based on merit and performance. That keeps great teachers like Ms. Sampson in the classroom.

Most states in the country are facing a major budget deficit. Many are cutting billions of dollars of aid to schools and local governments. These cuts lead to massive layoffs or increases in property taxes—or both.

In Wisconsin, we have a better approach to tackling our $3.6 billion deficit. We are reforming the way government works, as well as balancing our budget. Our reform plan gives state and local governments the tools to balance the budget through reasonable benefit contributions. In total, our budget-repair bill saves local governments almost $1.5 billion, outweighing the reductions in state aid in our budget.

While it might be a bold political move, the changes are modest. We ask government workers to make a 5.8% contribution to their pensions and a 12.6% contribution to their health-insurance premium, both of which are well below what other workers pay for benefits. Our plan calls for Wisconsin state workers to contribute half of what federal employees pay for their health-insurance premiums. (It's also worth noting that most federal workers don't have collective bargaining for wages and benefits.)

For example, my brother works as a banquet manager at a hotel and occasionally works as a bartender. My sister-in-law works at a department store. They have two beautiful kids. They are a typical middle-class Wisconsin family. At the start of this debate, David reminded me that he pays nearly $800 per month for his family's health-insurance premium and a modest 401(k) contribution. He said most workers in Wisconsin would love a deal like the one we are proposing.

The unions say they are ready to accept concessions, yet their actions speak louder than words. Over the past three weeks, local unions across the state have pursued contracts without new pension or health-insurance contributions. Their rhetoric does not match their record on this issue.

Local governments can't pass budgets on a hope and a prayer. Beyond balancing budgets, our reforms give schools—as well as state and local governments—the tools to reward productive workers and improve their operations. Most crucially, our reforms confront the barriers of collective bargaining that currently block innovation and reform.

When Gov. Mitch Daniels repealed collective bargaining in Indiana six years ago, it helped government become more efficient and responsive. The average pay for Indiana state employees has actually increased, and high-performing employees are rewarded with pay increases or bonuses when they do something exceptional.

Passing our budget-repair bill will help put similar reforms into place in Wisconsin. This will be good for the Badger State's hard-working taxpayers. It will also be good for state and local government employees who overwhelmingly want to do their jobs well.

In Wisconsin, we can avoid the massive teacher layoffs that schools are facing across America. Our budget-repair bill is a commitment to the future so our children won't face even more dire consequences than we face today, and teachers like Ms. Sampson are rewarded—not laid off.

Taking on the status quo is no easy task. Each day, there are protesters in and around our state Capitol. They have every right to be heard. But their voices cannot drown out the voices of the countless taxpayers who want us to balance our budgets and, more importantly, to make government work for each of them.

[soonercruiser]

After the Repugs out-maneuvered the absent Dems in Wiscinson, the protesters are streaming back inside the building.
*Despite being stopped by the police at the entrance, videos show the protesters coming in windows or any other way they can get in.
**So much for the anarchist liberals respecting the Rule of Law!

Police are forcably removing protesters from the Assembly Room so that the state's business can be done.
All the pounding, screaming, bullhorns, etc. reminds me of an exorcism!!

The Deamons are truely being expelled around the nation!
This truely is a battle for the Republic, probably no less significant than the Civil War, to see if the Republic as we know it will survive financially and morally!
:mad:

[Sabanball]

Funniest quote about what happened last night to me was from former Wisc senator Russ Feingold," The voters of this state will hold these elected officials accountable for what they've done tonight." Well duh! You should know, Russ!

[Soonerson1975]

Sounds like your already collecting water and ammo. Better get to work on that hole your digging.

[StoopTroup]

After the Repugs out-maneuvered the absent Dems in Wiscinson, the protesters are streaming back inside the building.
*Despite being stopped by the police at the entrance, videos show the protesters coming in windows or any other way they can get in.
**So much for the anarchist liberals respecting the Rule of Law!

Police are forcably removing protesters from the Assembly Room so that the state's business can be done.
All the pounding, screaming, bullhorns, etc. reminds me of an exorcism!!

The Deamons are truely being expelled around the nation!
This truely is a battle for the Republic, probably no less significant than the Civil War, to see if the Republic as we know it will survive financially and morally!
:mad:

So Fire Fighters, Cops, Teachers and whoever else this has affected are Demons who should be expelled taken to a public stock and await a beheading?

You truly are a scary individual. Get back on your meds.

Honestly Bro...I'm watching this LIVE and those people look a lot like The Tea Party folks that assembled. What you continue to believe I guess it's it's OK to assemble and rally as long as they check with you first?

[StoopTroup]

I feel badly for those State Troopers who are guarding the doors to the Capitol. They have to do their job. I hope it doesn't turn ugly.

[MamaMia]

So Fire Fighters, Cops, Teachers and whoever else this has affected are Demons who should be expelled taken to a public stock and await a beheading?

You truly are a scary individual. Get back on your meds.

Honestly Bro...I'm watching this LIVE and those people look a lot like The Tea Party folks that assembled. What you continue to believe I guess it's it's OK to assemble and rally as long as they check with you first?

He never said any of those things. Not even close. :confused:

[Veritas]

You know what's awesome in scrambled eggs? Buttermilk.

[Position Limit]

*Despite being stopped by the police at the entrance, videos show the protesters coming in windows or any other way they can get in.
**So much for the anarchist liberals respecting the Rule of Law!

Police are forcably removing protesters from the Assembly Room so that the state's business can be done.
All the pounding, screaming, bullhorns, etc. reminds me of an exorcism!!

The Deamons are truely being expelled around the nation!
This truely is a battle for the Republic, probably no less significant than the Civil War, to see if the Republic as we know it will survive financially and morally!
:mad:

good lord. climbing in windows? oh no. what's the world come to?
civil war? hopfully the GOP legislators across the nation will save us all.

[Turd_Ferguson]

You know what's awesome in scrambled eggs? Buttermilk.Son of a ....I just made some with butter AND milk but that ain't the same...I'll have to try it.

[soonerscuba]

You know what's awesome in scrambled eggs? Buttermilk.Church.

[MamaMia]

good lord. climbing in windows? oh no. what's the world come to?
civil war? hopfully the GOP legislators across the nation will save us all.

I'm pretty sure thats what the majority of voters who put them in office is hoping for.

[sooner_born_1960]

I thought I read that firefighters and cops are exempt from this legislation.

[StoopTroup]

He never said any of those things. Not even close. :confused:

Could you decipher it?

He seems so angry.

[Turd_Ferguson]

lol.....just wave your hand Turd and make it all go away.Everybody does go away when I wave my hand.....course, it's right after I pharted.:D

[MamaMia]

I thought I read that firefighters and cops are exempt from this legislation.They are.

As far as StoopTroops remark that these Wisconsinites are acting like the tea party folks...not even close. There were only a couple of nuts with stupid signs per thousand in the tea party gatherings. The tea party members were peaceful and cleaned up the areas in which they gathered. These nuts are anything but. They are trashing the capital, crawling through windows like snakes. being loud, obnoxious, disruptive of due process, threatening people and attacking Fox news correspondents.
Could you decipher it?

He seems so angry.

Uh...I just read what he said and understood it to be just that. Its called comprehension.

[NormanPride]

You know what's awesome in scrambled eggs? Buttermilk.

No, you fool! The milkfat browns before the eggs and it turns this weird shade of tan. If you just add water, then you get a ton of fluff out of the eggs and no extra calories. Hooray for science!

[StoopTroup]

I thought I read that firefighters and cops are exempt from this legislation.

They are but they still are supporting the cause from what I'm seeing. That or they they sent someone to represent them so they won't see reprocussions from the higher ups at their job.


Americans have the right to Unionize. What's at issue here is whether or not Government Employees have that right. At the end of the day the answer seems to be....Yes Government Employees do have a right to Unionize as long as you are a Cop or a Fire fighter etc...

History has seen many stories of breaking a Union.....I just never thought I'd see the Government be the one to bust one up.

It's proof of what I thought when I was younger....."How many employees can the Governement hire? What will our Country look like when an imbalance occurs?"

[Turd_Ferguson]

No, you fool! The milkfat browns before the eggs and it turns this weird shade of tan. If you just add water, then you get a ton of fluff out of the eggs and no extra calories. Hooray for science!Damn you NP!! Why do you stomp on my love for milk and butter:mad:

[NormanPride]

Milk and butter are wonderful inventions that have their place in our daily lives. I am simply stating that adding milk to your eggs will only serve in turning them a strange color.

[StoopTroup]

They are.

As far as StoopTroops remark that these Wisconsinites are acting like the tea party folks...not even close. There were only a couple of nuts with stupid signs per thousand in the tea party gatherings. The tea party members were peaceful and cleaned up the areas in which they gathered. These nuts are anything but. They are trashing the capital, crawling through windows like snakes. being loud, obnoxious, disruptive of due process, threatening people and attacking Fox news correspondents.

Uh...I just read what he said and understood it to be just that. Its called comprehension.

A gathering is a gathering and the Tea Folks....maybe they didn't have as much to clean up since it was such as you say.

I read his post again and I see this....

"So much for the anarchist liberals respecting the Rule of Law!"

[badger]

I have read all five pages here and heard about the news this morning. It sounds like this was not a well-thought-out plan on the Republican's part. If it was, they probably would have had the Wisconsin Highway Patrol, Madison Police Department and Wisconsin National Guard in place to keep order at the Capitol. Surely they would have known that protesters would return en masse. Terribly executed plan by Republicans. They almost deserve to have thousands of drugs and airhorns make them go deaf for their poor planning.

As for the Democrats... they had their chance to get public opinion (nationally, possibly also statewide) on their side... and then what. After polls showed the support, after celebrities showed up at the Capitol... then continued to do nothing, except stay Illinois.

It was lose-lose both sides. I pray for the people of Madison. This is going to just continue the madness in Mad-town.

[XFollower]

Michael Moore is an idiot

+10000000000000000000000

[Sabanball]

They are but they still are supporting the cause from what I'm seeing. That or they they sent someone to represent them so they won't see reprocussions from the higher ups at their job.


Americans have the right to Unionize. What's at issue here is whether or not Government Employees have that right. At the end of the day the answer seems to be....Yes Government Employees do have a right to Unionize as long as you are a Cop or a Fire fighter etc...

History has seen many stories of breaking a Union.....I just never thought I'd see the Government be the one to bust one up.

It's proof of what I thought when I was younger....."How many employees can the Governement hire? What will our Country look like when an imbalance occurs?"

I have no problems with anyone, including government employees, being able to unionize but I do NOT think gov employees should be able to collectively bargain for pay and benefits--federal employees already cannot do this, state/municipal employeess should not either, IMO.

[StoopTroup]

I have read all five pages here and heard about the news this morning. It sounds like this was not a well-thought-out plan on the Republican's part. If it was, they probably would have had the Wisconsin Highway Patrol, Madison Police Department and Wisconsin National Guard in place to keep order at the Capitol. Surely they would have known that protesters would return en masse. Terribly executed plan by Republicans. They almost deserve to have thousands of drugs and airhorns make them go deaf for their poor planning.

As for the Democrats... they had their chance to get public opinion (nationally, possibly also statewide) on their side... and then what. After polls showed the support, after celebrities showed up at the Capitol... then continued to do nothing, except stay Illinois.

It was lose-lose both sides. I pray for the people of Madison. This is going to just continue the madness in Mad-town.

More Black and White speculation.

I think it's up to those folks outside. They were supporting the Dems that left. Celebrities are showing up today and they aren't allowed in. I don't think I've seen such a mess since the stuff that went on in the 60's with civil rights in many places in this Country. Sending in the Police to dispurse the crowd shouldn't happen unless it turns violent IMO. You send the Cops in before that and you'll have a National Incident that will create even more of a split between people of different ideals.

Also....the State Troopers are there and that's who is keeping the crowd out of the Capitol.

[sappstuf]

They are but they still are supporting the cause from what I'm seeing. That or they they sent someone to represent them so they won't see reprocussions from the higher ups at their job.


Americans have the right to Unionize. What's at issue here is whether or not Government Employees have that right. At the end of the day the answer seems to be....Yes Government Employees do have a right to Unionize as long as you are a Cop or a Fire fighter etc...

History has seen many stories of breaking a Union.....I just never thought I'd see the Government be the one to bust one up.

It's proof of what I thought when I was younger....."How many employees can the Governement hire? What will our Country look like when an imbalance occurs?"

Really? Cause it seems like 2.15 million civilian federal employees have the same exact rights as Wisconsin teachers.

You haven't complained once of PEU rights under Obama or him unilaterally freezing pay last year for 3 years.

Why not?

[soonerscuba]

MY ORGANIZED BAND OF HYPERBOLIC REACTIONARIES IS WAY MORE CIVILIZED THAN YOUR ORGANIZED BAND OF HYPERBOLIC REACTIONARIES!!!!!!!

[GKeeper316]

ok this thread has digressed into a couple topics...

1. NP is wrong. adding milk to your eggs will only turn them brown if you're cooking them at too high a temp. reduce your flame and they'll turn out nice and yellow like they should.

2. unions and those that claim to hate them... lets keep in mind it was the busting up of labor unions thats made it possible for businesses to farm out manufacturing jobs to china and india where workers are paid a couple bucks a day, and work in conditions that have led to death and serious and life threatening health problems for those workers.

ask yourselves one thing when you rant and rail against unions... why have the republicans, as yet, not gone after police and fire unions? could it possibly be because police and fire generally vote pub? seems to me the pubs aren't anti union, they're just anti-anyone that votes against them. hell look at what the sons of bitches are doing in NH.

the division between political and social thinking has degenerated to the point where we refuse to even sit down and listen to what each other have to say. pubs wont concede anything to the dems because then they wont get re-elected, and the dems lack the will to really push their agenda.

[Pricetag]

I'm pretty sure thats what the majority of voters who put them in office is hoping for.
Heh, this is finally the time that the switch doesn't end up getting thrown the other way, right? Glad we finally got the good guys.

[85Sooner]

Government needs to get out of the school business. Shouldn't have been there in the first place IMO.

AMEN!

[StoopTroup]

I'm all for it too.

What's the next move? Throw out the Pubs too?

[NormanPride]

ok this thread has digressed into a couple topics...

1. NP is wrong. adding milk to your eggs will only turn them brown if you're cooking them at too high a temp. reduce your flame and they'll turn out nice and yellow like they should.

Your "milk camp" cronies are lying to you. Turning the temp down far enough to keep the milkfat from browning will keep your eggs from setting properly. Don't believe their lies! THEY LIE!

[StoopTroup]

What about soy? Can soy replace milkfat. Coconut Milk?

[NormanPride]

I've heard that the fats in coconut milk do not have the same issues, but I am not sure. Soy is nonfat, isn't it? At that point, you should just use water to make your eggs fluffy. That's what I do, and they are EPIC EGGS.

[StoopTroup]

Sweet. :D

Also....there are still a lot of folks in the Capitol. The vending Machines are probably empty. Hopefully the Gov. will fly in relief Snacks and ATM cash to show good faith.

[okie52]

ok this thread has digressed into a couple topics...

1. NP is wrong. adding milk to your eggs will only turn them brown if you're cooking them at too high a temp. reduce your flame and they'll turn out nice and yellow like they should.

2. unions and those that claim to hate them... lets keep in mind it was the busting up of labor unions thats made it possible for businesses to farm out manufacturing jobs to china and india where workers are paid a couple bucks a day, and work in conditions that have led to death and serious and life threatening health problems for those workers.

ask yourselves one thing when you rant and rail against unions... why have the republicans, as yet, not gone after police and fire unions? could it possibly be because police and fire generally vote pub? seems to me the pubs aren't anti union, they're just anti-anyone that votes against them. hell look at what the sons of bitches are doing in NH.

the division between political and social thinking has degenerated to the point where we refuse to even sit down and listen to what each other have to say. pubs wont concede anything to the dems because then they wont get re-elected, and the dems lack the will to really push their agenda.

Low wages internationally were the death blow to unions and the companies that employed them. Whether unionized or not American labor is not going to compete with $2 a day labor. And a company that uses $15 plus an hour labor isn't going to survive against a company using $2 a day labor.

[StoopTroup]

Subsidized Energy doesn't help either

[GKeeper316]

:)
Low wages internationally were the death blow to unions and the companies that employed them. Whether unionized or not American labor is not going to compete with $2 a day labor. And a company that uses $15 plus an hour labor isn't going to survive against a company using $2 a day labor.

it would if we'd set import tariffs so high that the $2 a day made products from china cost as much as the $15 an hour products made in the USA.

[StoopTroup]

:)

it would if we'd set import tariffs so high that the $2 a day made products from china cost as much as the $15 an hour products made in the USA.

That would go against the prime directive.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Wisconsin legislators FINALLY doing the vote, RIGHT NOW, as we type. Stuff gonna happen in America.

[okie52]

:)

it would if we'd set import tariffs so high that the $2 a day made products from china cost as much as the $15 an hour products made in the USA.

That doesn't sell our products abroad. If there was an international agreement on wages (that was enforceable) then it might work but you aren't ever going to get the developing countries to go along with it.

[MamaMia]

I have read all five pages here and heard about the news this morning. It sounds like this was not a well-thought-out plan on the Republican's part. If it was, they probably would have had the Wisconsin Highway Patrol, Madison Police Department and Wisconsin National Guard in place to keep order at the Capitol. Surely they would have known that protesters would return en masse. Terribly executed plan by Republicans. They almost deserve to have thousands of drugs and airhorns make them go deaf for their poor planning.

As for the Democrats... they had their chance to get public opinion (nationally, possibly also statewide) on their side... and then what. After polls showed the support, after celebrities showed up at the Capitol... then continued to do nothing, except stay Illinois.

It was lose-lose both sides. I pray for the people of Madison. This is going to just continue the madness in Mad-town.Are you serious? You are suggesting that the Republicans should have to have a well executed plan just to do their jobs, which is to legislate? Last time I checked, being targeted by a mad mob of window breaking, capital trashing, death threat making union people is not in their job description. Those people have the right to "peaceful" assembly. Their assembly is anything but peaceful. :rolleyes:

Maybe Obama needs to grow a couple and call the National Guard.

[texaspokieokie]

Are you serious? You are suggesting that the Republicans should have to have a well executed plan just to do their jobs, which is to legislate? Last time I checked, being targeted by a mad mob of window breaking, capital trashing, death threat making union people is not in their job description. Those people have the right to "peaceful" assembly. Their assembly is anything but peaceful. :rolleyes:

Maybe Obama needs to grow a couple and call the National Guard.

Agree, but leery of what is gonna happen.
forget about obama doing anything.

[MamaMia]

ok this thread has digressed into a couple topics...

1. NP is wrong. adding milk to your eggs will only turn them brown if you're cooking them at too high a temp. reduce your flame and they'll turn out nice and yellow like they should.

2. unions and those that claim to hate them... lets keep in mind it was the busting up of labor unions thats made it possible for businesses to farm out manufacturing jobs to china and india where workers are paid a couple bucks a day, and work in conditions that have led to death and serious and life threatening health problems for those workers.

ask yourselves one thing when you rant and rail against unions... why have the republicans, as yet, not gone after police and fire unions? could it possibly be because police and fire generally vote pub? seems to me the pubs aren't anti union, they're just anti-anyone that votes against them. hell look at what the sons of bitches are doing in NH.

the division between political and social thinking has degenerated to the point where we refuse to even sit down and listen to what each other have to say. pubs wont concede anything to the dems because then they wont get re-elected, and the dems lack the will to really push their agenda.I didn't agree with the police and fire department employee exemption from this Wisconsin bill, but then who would protect the law makers from the angry mob if the policemen and women also took part in a work stoppage? What if the angry mod set the place on fire? The republicans in Wisconsin probably knew they would need protection, as they did. Hopefully, in the near future, the politicians will be able to negotiate in such a way as to take the proper steps in getting them to pay a fair price for their benefits as well. That said...if union employees weren't so damned expensive then company owners wouldn't be building factories out of the country.

[Sooner5030]

unions, as they are protected in non-right to work states, allow one party of the transaction (labor supplier) to cartel their product and demand a higher price while the other party is not allowed to replace them with competitors. This is not freedom....it's tipping the scales against those that risk their capital for profit.....thanks to globalization they can now look elsewhere to invest their capital.

parasites must learn to keep their host alive.

[soonercoop1]

I can barely hold back the tears.

of joy...:)

[soonercoop1]

They are but they still are supporting the cause from what I'm seeing. That or they they sent someone to represent them so they won't see reprocussions from the higher ups at their job.


Americans have the right to Unionize. What's at issue here is whether or not Government Employees have that right. At the end of the day the answer seems to be....Yes Government Employees do have a right to Unionize as long as you are a Cop or a Fire fighter etc...

History has seen many stories of breaking a Union.....I just never thought I'd see the Government be the one to bust one up.

It's proof of what I thought when I was younger....."How many employees can the Governement hire? What will our Country look like when an imbalance occurs?"

Citizens have no right to unionize especially as a government employee...

[badger]

Are you serious? You are suggesting that the Republicans should have to have a well executed plan just to do their jobs, which is to legislate? Last time I checked, being targeted by a mad mob of window breaking, capital trashing, death threat making union people is not in their job description. Those people have the right to "peaceful" assembly. Their assembly is anything but peaceful. :rolleyes:

Maybe Obama needs to grow a couple and call the National Guard.

I'm serious, because of where this is happening: Madison.

Let's hypothetically say that Tech appears to have beaten their big brother program that is currently ranked #1 in the nation at home. The proper lawful thing that educated football fans would do would be cheer a lot from the stands and act like they've been there before.

But this is Lubbock we're referring to.

If the security can't keep the students off the field, they're risking a costly penalty, especially if the refs review the play and overturn the results. Not maintaining order could have devastating results.

Security in Lubbock should have known that the dum dum fans (no offense to Raider fans that might be lurking) would try to rush the field, even if it's against the law, even if they're telling fans they're jeopardizing the victory, even if they're telling them that the game isn't over and they're giving Tech penalties.

Such is the case in Madison... laws be damned, they are gonna do what they want when they want wherever they want to... and that's why I'm praying for my birthstate's Capitol city right now. This is not gonna end well :(

[sooned]

Need to recall that sob Gov

[MamaMia]

Need to recall that sob GovHes doing his job. I think you forget that those union protesters don't speak for the majority. Its split down the middle. Once the economy turns around as a result of Walkers actions, the majority will be on his side.

[soonerscuba]

If people had a fraction of the anger directed at the fund managers for public pensions that do towards the contributers, I think we would be significantly better off as a society.

[Leroy Lizard]

Very aggie:


(AP) — With the labor movement heading to an epic defeat in Wisconsin and perhaps other states, union leaders plan to use the setback to fire up working people nationwide and mount a major counterattack against Republicans at the ballot box in 2012.

Wisconsin's measure stripping public employees of most bargaining rights swiftly advanced toward GOP Gov. Scott Walker's desk Thursday, and he promised to sign it as soon as possible. But labor leaders say the events in Wisconsin have helped galvanize support for unions across the country, and they hope to use the momentum to help fight off the attacks and grow their membership.

Said the president of the AFL-CIO: "I guess I ought to say thank you particularly to Scott Walker. We should have invited him here today to receive the Mobilizer of the Year award from us!"

Yeah, get your teeth kicked in and thank your assaulter for motivating you. What a loser.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Need to recall that sob GovOh no, another pink Sooner fan. Just what this board needs.

[Leroy Lizard]

Oh no, another pink Sooner fan. Just what this board needs.

I think it's funny that a Texan is asking for a recall of a Wisconsin governor. MYOB!

[sappstuf]

Very aggie:

Yeah, get your teeth kicked in and thank your assaulter for motivating you. What a loser.

They are going to need motivation. Other states that have similiar laws are going to try to do the same thing. The unions are going to be spending money at the state level for years to come.. That will hurt them in 2012.

And who were three out of the five of the biggest donors of political money in the 2010 election? Take a guess...

http://media.hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/wsj-spending.jpg

[OutlandTrophy]

http://www.airlinesafety.com/images/EasternUnemploymentVictory.jpg
.

[MamaMia]

The Wisconsin Teacher of the Year can thank the Wisconsin teachers union for the loss of her job. So much for caring about the children, huh? :rolleyes:

[Sooner5030]

here is a decent "union teacher/graduate assistant/high tuition" free set of lessons that will not require health care or a pension.

http://www.khanacademy.org/

[StoopTroup]

http://www.airlinesafety.com/images/EasternUnemploymentVictory.jpg
.

You forgot the cartoon where Frank Lorenzo had to charter private air travel until he was forgotten after failing to keep things going at Eastern.


In 1990, after Lorenzo liquidated his holdings after 18 years in the airline industry.....

I'm guessing you think people losing jobs is funny. It's not. The same thing Lorenzo had happen will happen to Walker.

One thing I'll give Lorenzo credit for is that what he did at Continental did save that Airline....what he did at Eastern....not so much. I guess he thought what he did in the Midwest would work on the East Coast. He was wrong.

[KABOOKIE]

The Wisconsin Teacher of the Year can thank the Wisconsin teachers union for the loss of her job. So much for caring about the children, huh? :rolleyes:

I'll start caring about the children when they start paying dues. ~Union Thug

[Sooner5030]

could you imagine if the tea party or anyone from the anti-leech side of politics said this:

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/117732923.html


Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.

WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in
the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me
have decided that we've had enough. We feel that you and the people that
support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing
with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand
for it any longer. So, this is how it's going to happen: I as well as many
others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records.
We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a
nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn't leave
it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the
message to you since you are so "high" on Koch and have decided that you are now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a
demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent. This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won't tell you all of them because that's just no fun. Since we know that you are not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it's necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making
them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families
and themselves then We Will "get rid of" (in which I mean kill) you. Please
understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked
everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel that it's worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives
of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and
say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!

what happened to preaching about civility in politics?

[MamaMia]

could you imagine if the tea party or anyone from the anti-leech side of politics said this:

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/117732923.html



what happened to preaching about civility in politics?

All the while these threats are going on, what we hear out of Obama is how we shouldn't vilify the union workers. Hes such an ***.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

All the while these threats are going on, what we hear out of Obama is how we shouldn't vilify the union workers. Hes such an ***.Maybe, just maybe, a significant number of presently clueless, mind-fogged progressives, will START seeing the light, and BEGIN to think twice about the logic of voting effing democrat, and paying heed to pubic school teachers and the MSM. It's beyond puzzling to ponder why there are so many who haven't come around yet, other than considering their willingness to suck on the mammaries of the Big Sow, and their fear that the public milk will run dry.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

unions, as they are protected in non-right to work states, allow one party of the transaction (labor supplier) to cartel their product and demand a higher price while the other party is not allowed to replace them with competitors. This is not freedom....it's tipping the scales against those that risk their capital for profit.....thanks to globalization they can now look elsewhere to invest their capital.

parasites must learn to keep their host alive.DITTO! There ya go, Mama! 5030 said it about as well as can be, here.

[Leroy Lizard]

WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me have decided that we've had enough. We feel that you and the people that
support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing
with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand
for it any longer. So, this is how it's going to happen: I as well as many
others know where you and your family live, it's a matter of public records.
We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a
nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn't leave
it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the
message to you ...

Okay, so I'm dead but I still haven't got the message yet. And so he's gonna... blow up my car.


Since we know that you are not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it's necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making
them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families
and themselves then We Will "get rid of" (in which I mean kill) you. Please
understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked
everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do

That's good. For a moment I was worried that you were going to go after the "heroic Rep. Senator" after you got done killing me (and blowing up my car).

[Mongo]

You forgot the cartoon where Frank Lorenzo had to charter private air travel until he was forgotten after failing to keep things going at Eastern.



I'm guessing you think people losing jobs is funny. It's not. The same thing Lorenzo had happen will happen to Walker.

One thing I'll give Lorenzo credit for is that what he did at Continental did save that Airline....what he did at Eastern....not so much. I guess he thought what he did in the Midwest would work on the East Coast. He was wrong.

I dont think the point "unemployment is funny" was the cartoon's purpose, more along the lines of everyone in the union make some cuts or there are going to be jobs lost to cover what the union demands

[MamaMia]

Somehow seeing tea party folks dressed up in George and Martha Washington outfits carrying signs uplifting the Founding Fathers don't seem so crazy to me now.

[Leroy Lizard]

I dont think the point "unemployment is funny" was the cartoon's purpose...

But if it works, what the hey?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Just heard a Fox news flash!!!!
The repugs in Wisconsin pulled the "financial" language from the labor union bill. (they therefore did not need a quorum for the vote)
And, the bill just passed!

I'll bet those Dems are flyin' back over the border!
And, the protesters are back!
TOO LATE!!! :P

Excellent!! Way to go repubs! Wisconsin Gov. for President!!!

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Excellent!! Way to go repubs! Wisconsin Gov. for President!!!if it wasn't for the fact he's only been a gov. for a couple of months, he would be a shoo-in. At least, he should be a great inspiration to other governors who have to deal with public unions to cut some expenses for their respective states.

[StoopTroup]

if it wasn't for the fact he's only been a gov. for a couple of months, he would be a shoo-in. At least, he should be a great inspiration to other governors who have to deal with public unions to cut some expenses for their respective states.

Well then let Sarah run and make him VP. That way you've got a good solid team with the experience that's needed to run the biggest Super Power that has ever existed.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Well then let Sarah run and make him VP. That way you've got a good solid team with the experience that's needed to run the biggest Super Power that has ever existed.Are you insuinating that his highness, King Beary-O was governor of a state longer than Sarah Palin? ...or, just what were you insinuating, other than you damn sure don't want Palin to be president? If Scott Walker could be so awesome with only 2 months as governor, think how super magnificent Sarah could be with what, a couple of years of awesome leadership of her state.

[Leroy Lizard]

Well then let Sarah run and make him VP. That way you've got a good solid team with the experience that's needed to run the biggest Super Power that has ever existed.

Still more experienced than Obama when he ran. I'll take it.

[Leroy Lizard]

The latest (sent from a friend via email)

Nationwide Student Walkout Friday in Solidarity with Wisconsin


Nationwide Student Walkout
Friday, March 11 · 2:00pm - 11:30pm (local time),
High schools nationwide!

High school students in Madison, Wisconsin will walk out of class this
Friday, March 11th at 2:00 PM CT to hold a 3:00 CT teach-in on Library Mall
in downtown Madison regarding the effects of collective bargaining
elimination on public education, as well as the proposed education cuts in
the Biennial Budget.

We are asking all students in the United States to walk out at 2:00 PM local
time in solidarity with Wisconsin and to organize teach-ins on the attacks
on public education and working families where you live.
Signed,

Wisconsin Students in Solidarity
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_187367814637933
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150106108358095&oid=141162765948861&comments

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Still more experienced than Obama when he ran. I'll take it.

I like Sarah on the scene as much as the next guy, but her conservative supporters have jumped ship. She's dead in the near term.

[Leroy Lizard]

I like Sarah on the scene as much as the next guy, but her conservative supporters have jumped ship. She's dead in the near term.

Agreed. She shouldn't run but instead support the Republican candidate.

[OutlandTrophy]

You forgot the cartoon where Frank Lorenzo had to charter private air travel until he was forgotten after failing to keep things going at Eastern.



I'm guessing you think people losing jobs is funny. It's not. The same thing Lorenzo had happen will happen to Walker.

One thing I'll give Lorenzo credit for is that what he did at Continental did save that Airline....what he did at Eastern....not so much. I guess he thought what he did in the Midwest would work on the East Coast. He was wrong.


you missed the point


After Lorenzo was removed, our slogan remained "One day longer," but it became "One day longer" than Eastern....


that quote might help put the cartoon into perspective for you

[dwarthog]

Your "milk camp" cronies are lying to you. Turning the temp down far enough to keep the milkfat from browning will keep your eggs from setting properly. Don't believe their lies! THEY LIE!

+1 on the water in your eggs.

The only way to cook em' up right!

[badger]

Wisky update: Layoff notices rescinded, but they still have budget holes to fill even after the bill to eliminate collective bargaining.

I know that unions are often credited with saving jobs from being outscored, etc. The fact of the matter is that teacher jobs are not gonna be outsourced. Even if they pull a big projection screen up in the front of a classroom so that a teacher from India was instructing, you'd still need an adult in the classroom to ensure that the students stay on task and behave. Teaching jobs are jobs that are not gonna be outsources.

Same with many other public sector jobs.

On the opposite side of the spectrum...


While some layoffs might have been prevented with the passage of the bill, many more layoffs are likely to come if the governor's proposed budget passes. The proposal cuts aid to local school districts by $834 million and also limits the amount they can spend per student, cutting the average per-pupil amount by about $550, which could cost districts millions. School districts have already sent out hundreds of non-renewal notices to staff members.

The jobs were not entirely saved by eliminating collective bargaining rights. It is possible that lower wages will be negotiated to keep more people on the job, but highly unlikely. Unions probably are going to be negotiating very little with the state government that just removed their collective bargaining power.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

However it happened, the compensation packages were way over the top, and need fixing dramatically.

Same in California and other states. We had one hell of a 25 year streak of economic growth with minor bumps. Compensation packages were negotiated as if we'd never see another recession. Kinda like what happened to home prices. People would pay $500,000 for a home - not that they could afford it - but did so under the assumption prices (and equity) would keep escalating.

And then in public sector jobs, the growing tax revenues kept pouring in year after year, so it seemed like we could afford to promise fat pensions and health benefits, with future growing revenues taking care of it.

[StoopTroup]

Online Schools Football programs will have a Playoff System I bet.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

That doesn't sell our products abroad. If there was an international agreement on wages (that was enforceable) then it might work but you aren't ever going to get the developing countries to go along with it.


unions, as they are protected in non-right to work states, allow one party of the transaction (labor supplier) to cartel their product and demand a higher price while the other party is not allowed to replace them with competitors. This is not freedom....it's tipping the scales against those that risk their capital for profit.....thanks to globalization they can now look elsewhere to invest their capital.

parasites must learn to keep their host alive.

Growing U.S. exports is the name of the game. Solving the problem using tariffs is a deadend. 94% of the consumers in this world live outside the U.S.

Recently I read an interview of Will Danoff, manager of Fidelity's Contrafund, who is regarded as one of the greatest fund managers of the last two decades.

He said, "I'm interested in companies that can sell products - whether branded goods or technology - to billions of people in Asia and other emerging markets."

Coca-cola is one he mentioned. He said:

"Americans consume 400 eight-ounce servings of Coca-Cola (KO) beverages a year. Mexicans drink 650 to 700 servings a year, while in China annual per-capita consumption is only 25 eight-ounce servings. Coke is betting that it will be able to increase per-capita consumption in China profitably."

His portfolio is 1/3 technology. He points out that half of all capital spending is now IT related. In this recent recession many companies have cleaned up their balance sheets and reduced capital spending but they continue to buy more computers and other technology. He's big on the smart phone which is early in the product cycle.

Here's the interview: http://www.kiplinger.com/columns/fundwatch/archive/where-Will-Danoff-Contrafund-is-finding-opportunities.html



It's been mentioned that you can't outsource teaching jobs. Actually you sorta can. California does it in higher ed. The state pays out a Cal Grant to students from households with modest incomes. Students get a much larger grant to go to a private university. It is cheaper for the state to subsidize their private university education than it is to educate them through the state university system. Kinda like a voucher system.


Vouchers in K-12 would be a type of outsourcing for the states.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

High school students in Madison, Wisconsin will walk out of class this
Friday, March 11th at 2:00 PM CT to hold a 3:00 CT teach-in on Library Mall
in downtown Madison regarding the effects of collective bargaining
elimination on public education, as well as the proposed education cuts in
the Biennial Budget.


God, this sounds so free love commie vietnam crap...Oh, wait, Umad bombed the ROTC building back then...

[StoopTroup]

Problem solved. Might as well close this thread.

[Sooner5030]

Here's a nice letter that is allegedly being sent to Wisky businesses:

http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesykes/117764004.html?blog=y


Dear Mr. Ellis:
As you undoubtedly know, Governor Walker recently proposed a “budget
adjustment bill” to eviscerate public employees’ right to collectively bargain in
Wisconsin. ..

As you also know, Scott Walker did not campaign on this issue when he ran for office. If he had, we are confident that you would not be listed among his largest contributors. As such, we are contacting you now to request your support.

The undersigned groups would like your company to publicly oppose Governor
Walker’s efforts to virtually eliminate collective bargaining for public employees in Wisconsin. While we appreciate that you may need some time to consider this request, we ask for your response by March 17. In the event that you do not respond to this request by that date, we will assume that you stand with Governor Walker and against the teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters, and other dedicated public employees who serve our communities.

In the event that you cannot support this effort to save collective bargaining, please be advised that the undersigned will publicly and formally boycott the goods and services provided by your company. However, if you join us, we will do everything in our power to publicly celebrate your partnership in the fight to preserve the right of public employees to be heard at the bargaining table.

Wisconsin’s public employee unions serve to protect and promote equality and
fairness in the workplace. We hope you will stand with us and publicly share that ideal.

In the event you would like to discuss this matter further, please contact the
executive Director of the Wisconsin Professional Police Association, Jim Palmer,
at 608.273.3840.

Thank you in advance for your consideration. We look forward to hearing from
you soon.

James L. Palmer, Executive Director
Wisconsin Professional Police Association
Mahlon Mitchell,President
Professional Fire Fighters
Jim Conway, President
International Association of Fire Fighters Local 311
John Matthews, Executive Director
Madison Teachers, Inc.
Keith Patt, Executive Director
Green Bay Education Association
Bob Richardson, President
Dane County Deputy Sheriffs Association
Dan Frei, President
Madison Professional Police Officers Association

if real these guys have lost perspective on performing their duties.

[OUthunder]

I agree. That is bush league. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But what they did was just childish.

Yep.

[hawaii 5-0]

Kinda likke Gov. Walker did when he gave the multimillion tax break to the Corporate Fat Cars.



5-0

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Kinda likke Gov. Walker did when he gave the multimillion tax break to the Corporate Fat Cars.



5-0Sorry Charlie, the Private Sector IS the economy. Without its success, the govt. mammaries dry up, and we end up with a recession, like we have now.

[StoopTroup]

Well at least the private sector hasn't dried up. :rolleyes:

[StoopTroup]

Here's a nice letter that is allegedly being sent to Wisky businesses:

http://www.620wtmj.com/shows/charliesykes/117764004.html?blog=y



if real these guys have lost perspective on performing their duties.

if writing a letter to discuss views of different perspective is lost perspective....I'd say everyone of us have lost the right to express our opinions as Americans. I think you should really give that more consideration. Leaving folks with no voice caused a lot of dissent against employers back in the days of early Unionism. No doubt the folks who run Unions are stale in thought and seemingly unable to listen to their rank and file....but it's sometimes a more effecient way for Companies to keep lots of folks working like sheep grazing in a field for many years.

[Sooner5030]

these are public servants.....not coal miners dieing from shiaty lungs and harsh conditions. If you don't like your pay and benefits......get a different job. If underpaid then the employers will have to adjust the package to keep employees. If not....then you are already getting paid the market price.

[OutlandTrophy]

until a police officer can be fired without being on paid admin leave for a month plus, they need to STFU.

[Leroy Lizard]

these are public servants.....not coal miners dieing from shiaty lungs and harsh conditions. If you don't like your pay and benefits......get a different job. If underpaid then the employers will have to adjust the package to keep employees. If not....then you are already getting paid the market price.

Exactly. Read the following:


In the event that you do not respond to this request by that date, we will assume that you stand with Governor Walker and against the teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters, and other dedicated public employees who serve our communities.

In the event that you cannot support this effort to save collective bargaining,
please be advised that the undersigned will publicly and formally boycott the
goods and services provided by your company.

Having any organization representing police and firemen sending out such letters smacks of Chicago insurance and frankly comes across like extortion. Under no circumstances should police officers or firemen side with certain businesses out of political consideration.

I know unions want to win, but there needs to be a limit as to how low one will stoop. This is about as low as it gets.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Exactly. Read the following:



Having any organization representing police and firemen sending out such letters smacks of Chicago insurance and frankly comes across like extortion. Under no circumstances should police officers or firemen side with certain businesses out of political consideration.

I know unions want to win, but there needs to be a limit as to how low one will stoop. This is about as low as it gets.If they refuse to perform their jobs, then they should be fired. (What private business would retain the services of an employee who refused to work?)

[pphilfran]

If they refuse to perform their jobs, then they should be fired. (What private business would retain the services of an employee who refused to work?)

I have worked at plants that went on strike and we took each and every employee what walked out back to work....

[Leroy Lizard]

If they refuse to perform their jobs, then they should be fired. (What private business would retain the services of an employee who refused to work?)

Actually having police officers that engage in such tactics is worse than having no police at all. I would rather fend off criminals then deal with a police officer who has singled out my business this way. At least I know I where the criminal is comin' from.

[Leroy Lizard]

I have worked at plants that went on strike and we took each and every employee what walked out back to work....

:confused:

[pphilfran]

:confused:

Why are you confused? It happens all the time...the union calls the strike...management works the jobs as long as possible...strike is brought to an end by compromise...all workers go back on the job...

[pphilfran]

I have worked at plants that went on strike and we took each and every employee what walked out back to work....

Maybe the typo got ya...that instead of what...

[StoopTroup]

these are public servants.....not coal miners dieing from shiaty lungs and harsh conditions. If you don't like your pay and benefits......get a different job. If underpaid then the employers will have to adjust the package to keep employees. If not....then you are already getting paid the market price.

One week without those servants would be a lot worse than one week without coal

[SanJoaquinSooner]

One week without those servants would be a lot worse than one week without coal

Why would they have to go a week without them?

[Leroy Lizard]

One week without those servants would be a lot worse than one week without coal

Not THOSE servants. With THOSE servants I'll take my chances. The last thing I need are my property and rights protected by someone who, for all I know, would set my house on fire if I didn't cave in to his demands.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I have worked at plants that went on strike and we took each and every employee what walked out back to work....Was this a union situation?
OK, I read later that it was..Shame on collective bargaining!

[StoopTroup]

I think many of you have no clue about Unions other than what you've been told.

Light Reading might help

Try looking up things like "The Railway Labor Act" and The Allgheny-Mohawk Agreement"....then do some investigating as to what they do and why they are there. Look for other things like them.

Once you do....you'll have an even larger understanding of where a good number of us come from.

You can bitch and whine an moan and **** on people and disagree with them until you are blue in the face or run into someone who by asking you a few questions realizes you don't have a clue and that you really aren't there but to bitch whine and moan about Unions and people who work in the many situations you think are a drudge on America.

The one thing I do understand is a guy with a Small Business or Company who has a large powerful Union try to unionize his employees. I'm sure he feels like he's being held hostage...he probably is. Larger entities? It's something they may be forced to deal with depending on the Product or service.

Unions I've seen formed in my lifetime were using formed by a pretty close margin of vote and it was because they ran into a guy like Scott Walker who would go to no end to get his way and try to scare and threaten everyone that worked there.

Someone brought up Frank Lorenzo of Eastern Airlines the other day....and yeah....people stood up to him and people lost jobs. It seems stupid to people who see an opportunity and would have worked for less by helping to throw those "Bums" as some would call them out. But it is amazing that folks would really go to that level to put an end to the entity that fed their Familes. If you've never been like those employees and you take Lorenzo's side and think it's the stupidest thing you've ever seen.....was is amazing that neither can agree and that in fact....Lorenzo lost his job and even though he landed on his feet, he still never was given an opportunity to run a large airline again. I just don't think good leaders and really smart educated people take a poison pill unless he was told to and in the end....whoever he answered to (Board of Directors/Stock Holders) were even bigger losers.

It's easy to focus on one thing but when you really remove yourself to studying what happened. It's a lesson to all to get along.....not a lesson that you better respect the Boss or you'll all be gone. Scare tactics don't always work in America

[Leroy Lizard]

You can bitch and whine an moan and **** on people and disagree with them until you are blue in the face or ....

.... you can threaten them if they don't change their mind and sign your petition.

Am I right?

[Sooner5030]

You can bitch and whine an moan and **** on people and disagree with them until you are blue in the face or run into someone who by asking you a few questions realizes you don't have a clue and that you really aren't there but to bitch whine and moan about Unions and people who work in the many situations you think are a drudge on America.


it's not about having a "clue"......it's about the way some of us want to be governed. unions don't work well in a globally competitive labor market.....at least not when you have a 1950's union mentality. Public service unions have lasted only because we haven't figured out a way to outsource education, police and fire. But once we do......

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

it's not about having a "clue"......it's about the way some of us want to be governed. unions don't work well in a globally competitive labor market.....at least not when you have a 1950's union mentality. Public service unions have lasted only because we haven't figured out a way to outsource education, police and fire. But once we do......Could it be that the principle of BLACKMAIL is not conducive to a civilized society?

[Sooner_Havok]

HsHXJr8tqP0

Also, maybe I am missing something here, but didn't the dems want a public option included in obama care? Now, I'm not sure, but I think that we didn't get a public option included in Obama care. So either the dems are super-retarded on pushing stuff through, or there was a compromise made on the Obama care thing. Granted, no regressive voted for the bill, but the bill that passed did not include everything the dems wanted.

So, Walker wanted to cut healthcare benefits, increase amounts employees had to pay into pensions, and remove their right to collective bargaining. Compromise is proposed, where public servants agree to take the cut in healthcare benefits, and pay more into their pensions, but keep their collective bargaining rights. Walker replies "No compromise will be made!"

Oh, you guys are going to be intolerable when the dems get back into power and pull this sh*t.

edit: On a side not, the dems did kind of get a win here by forcing Walker to remove the no bid sale of public utilities to corporations (See Koch Industries). Workers may have lost their rights, but the people of WI got to keep their property.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Also, maybe I am missing something here, but didn't the dems want a public option included in obama care? Now, I'm not sure, but I think that we didn't get a public option included in Obama care. So either the dems are super-retarded on pushing stuff through, or there was a compromise made on the Obama care thing. Granted, no regressive voted for the bill, but the bill that passed did not include everything the dems wanted.

That's rich.

[Leroy Lizard]

HsHXJr8tqP0

Also, maybe I am missing something here, but didn't the dems want a public option included in obama care? Now, I'm not sure, but I think that we didn't get a public option included in Obama care. So either the dems are super-retarded on pushing stuff through, or there was a compromise made on the Obama care thing.

And you think this was done in the spirit of compromise? The Dems couldn't get the bill passed unless they compromised. If they had sufficient numbers voting in favor of the original bill, they wouldn't have compromised.

The only time you should deserve credit for compromising is when you do it when you don't have to.


Oh, you guys are going to be intolerable when the dems get back into power and pull this sh*t.

We already experienced it with Obamacare, and the last time I looked we still decided to go to work the next day. Sure, we griped, but we didn't react like the unions are reacting in WI. The hosility and boorish behavior is unbecoming of people who consider themselves professionals.

[Sooner_Havok]

And you think this was done in the spirit of compromise? The Dems couldn't get the bill passed unless they compromised. If they had sufficient numbers voting in favor of the original bill, they wouldn't have compromised.

The only time you should deserve credit for compromising is when you do it when you don't have to.



We already experienced it with Obamacare, and the last time I looked we still decided to go to work the next day. Sure, we griped, but we didn't react like the unions are reacting in WI. The hosility and boorish behavior is unbecoming of people who consider themselves professionals.

Umm, now you have confused me. So the dems couldn't pass obama care as-is cause they didn't have the votes, so the had to compromise. But Obama care was forced down the throats of republicans because the dems had the votes to do it. :confused:

Are you one of those "Keep your government out of my Medicare" people?

Aslo, I posted GOP god praising unions, and no one cares to respond?

[TitoMorelli]

Umm, now you have confused me. So the dems couldn't pass obama care as-is cause they didn't have the votes, so the had to compromise. But Obama care was forced down the throats of republicans because the dems had the votes to do it. :confused:

Are you one of those "Keep your government out of my Medicare" people?

Aslo, I posted GOP god praising unions, and no one cares to respond?

Didn't the deciding votes come from fellow Democrats who benefited from multi-million dollar back-room deals for their states, or from gullible ones like Stupak who actually believed the empty promises of Pelosi and the White House? Those compromises weren't to get Republicans on board.

[texaspokieokie]

Didn't the deciding votes come from fellow Democrats who benefited from multi-million dollar back-room deals for their states, or from gullible ones like Stupak who actually believed the empty promises of Pelosi and the White House? Those compromises weren't to get Republicans on board.

Right you are, Bob !!!!

[Leroy Lizard]

Umm, now you have confused me. So the dems couldn't pass obama care as-is cause they didn't have the votes, so the had to compromise. But Obama care was forced down the throats of republicans because the dems had the votes to do it. :confused:

Because even with the compromise they still couldn't get it through, although they tried. So they resorted to other means.



Aslo, I posted GOP god praising unions, and no one cares to respond?

What about it? (RR is the same one who fired all the air traffic controllers, remember?)

[TitoMorelli]

Havoc does bring up an interesting argument. Reagan apparently championed unions (especially during campaign season ;) ), and was at one time president of one (SAG). But when air traffic controllers attempted to strike and walk out on their jobs, he pulled no punches against them, even though they had endorsed him for POTUS in 1980. Reagan had numerous flaws, but in this instance he knew how devastating such a strike would be, not just to the airline industry, but to the entire country.

There is much that is noble in the history of the struggle of unions and the common working man to improve their way of life and working conditions, not only in this country but in many parts of the world. But it's hard to shed a tear for those in public sector unions today who are creating such an uproar, especially when their demands would maintain benefits for them that far exceed those of their private sector counterparts, and when such demands can only be met by taking more money out of every taxpayer's pockets.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Havoc does bring up an interesting argument. Reagan apparently championed unions (especially during campaign season ;) ), and was at one time president of one (SAG). But when air traffic controllers attempted to strike and walk out on their jobs, he pulled no punches against them, even though they had endorsed him for POTUS in 1980. Reagan had numerous flaws, but in this instance he knew how devastating such a strike would be, not just to the airline industry, but to the entire country.

There is much that is noble in the history of the struggle of unions and the common working man to improve their way of life and working conditions, not only in this country but in many parts of the world. But it's hard to shed a tear for those in public sector unions today who are creating such an uproar, especially when their demands would maintain benefits for them that far exceed those of their private sector counterparts, and when such demands can only be met by taking more money out of every taxpayer's pockets.

Reagan wasn't out to end collective bargaining rights, but PATCO striking was illegal. That's why he fired them.

[TitoMorelli]

Reagan wasn't out to end collective bargaining rights, but PATCO striking was illegal. That's why he fired them.

Good point, SJS.

[SoonerKnight]

That's true.

.

[SoonerKnight]

Wisky update: Layoff notices rescinded, but they still have budget holes to fill even after the bill to eliminate collective bargaining.

I know that unions are often credited with saving jobs from being outscored, etc. The fact of the matter is that teacher jobs are not gonna be outsourced. Even if they pull a big projection screen up in the front of a classroom so that a teacher from India was instructing, you'd still need an adult in the classroom to ensure that the students stay on task and behave. Teaching jobs are jobs that are not gonna be outsources.

Same with many other public sector jobs.

On the opposite side of the spectrum...



The jobs were not entirely saved by eliminating collective bargaining rights. It is possible that lower wages will be negotiated to keep more people on the job, but highly unlikely. Unions probably are going to be negotiating very little with the state government that just removed their collective bargaining power.

How were jobs saved?

[SoonerKnight]

Havoc does bring up an interesting argument. Reagan apparently championed unions (especially during campaign season ;) ), and was at one time president of one (SAG). But when air traffic controllers attempted to strike and walk out on their jobs, he pulled no punches against them, even though they had endorsed him for POTUS in 1980. Reagan had numerous flaws, but in this instance he knew how devastating such a strike would be, not just to the airline industry, but to the entire country.

There is much that is noble in the history of the struggle of unions and the common working man to improve their way of life and working conditions, not only in this country but in many parts of the world. But it's hard to shed a tear for those in public sector unions today who are creating such an uproar, especially when their demands would maintain benefits for them that far exceed those of their private sector counterparts, and when such demands can only be met by taking more money out of every taxpayer's pockets.

And thus they agreed to take the pay and benefit cuts. They just wanted to be able to negotiate later on. So whats the problem with that. I work in a public sector job. We have a contract. When the city was hurting we agreed to open our contract up and freeze our raise until the end of the year from Jan to Dec. They even laid of deputies just to hire them back two months later after they realized the rest of us were killing them in overtime.

Next year we will negotiate with the city again. We will ask for a raise. The city will tell us that we don't need one. We will again win in arbitration. We were the only union a few years ago to take a pay cut to help the city and then when the city was doing better they told us. STFU! Unions are needed. Because skilled jobs need skilled labor other wise somebody else can do it cheaper.

In WI the teachers will get sick of it and start leaving. Fox news said oh but the teachers don't work as hard as the stockbroker in NYC. The deserve Billions in compansation while the rest of us have to scrape by. Makes sense to me. After all Oklahoma has some of the lowest wages in the country.

[sappstuf]

And thus they agreed to take the pay and benefit cuts. They just wanted to be able to negotiate later on. So whats the problem with that. I work in a public sector job. We have a contract. When the city was hurting we agreed to open our contract up and freeze our raise until the end of the year from Jan to Dec. They even laid of deputies just to hire them back two months later after they realized the rest of us were killing them in overtime.

Next year we will negotiate with the city again. We will ask for a raise. The city will tell us that we don't need one. We will again win in arbitration. We were the only union a few years ago to take a pay cut to help the city and then when the city was doing better they told us. STFU! Unions are needed. Because skilled jobs need skilled labor other wise somebody else can do it cheaper.

In WI the teachers will get sick of it and start leaving. Fox news said oh but the teachers don't work as hard as the stockbroker in NYC. The deserve Billions in compansation while the rest of us have to scrape by. Makes sense to me. After all Oklahoma has some of the lowest wages in the country.

Federal workers don't have the right to collectively bargain for wages... I haven't seen them getting sick of it and start leaving.

[SoonerKnight]

Federal workers don't have the right to collectively bargain for wages... I haven't seen them getting sick of it and start leaving.

I was a federal worker. And yes we started out with 500 screeners for DIA and within 6 months we were down to less than 300 screeners and we were working 12-18 hour days 6 to 7 days a week. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean ****! The teachers can teach some place else. Oh and I left after 3 years. I could not take the BS any longer. I went to my current job and started out in the plus by almost $20,000.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

They can still negotiate salary through their bargaining rights, they cannot negotiate fringe benefits and retirement anymore. They will begin to pay for some of those costs like everyone else.

If any of you in the south saw what they have in the schools and what the teachers get paid, you would wonder what they are bitching about. They tax heavy for the schools and there is a lot of money floating around in those schools.

My Dad's home town of 8000 or so has a high school that has a seperate natarorium, gymnasium, concert hall and separate football, soccer and lacrosse fields with associate weight training room. Their football team still sucks. I am sure there is more, but that is what you can see when you drive by.

Go Rhinelander Hodags....;)

[StoopTroup]

Here's some irony. I understand why he did it...it had the potential to upset mass transit in America and The Railway Way Labor Act although Draconian at that time would stand as a major benchmark from that time until now.


Ironically, PATCO had supported the president in the 1980 campaign. But, as Reagan biographer Dinesh D'Souza wrote, "(while) political calculation might dictate that a new president should work out an amicable settlement rather than alienate a powerful union that supported him and risk paralyzing the country's civil aviation system," Reagan didn't buy that argument.


Here's why I don't understand the hatred that people have over all of this....


With the busting of PATCO, an era of catastrophe for working-class people began in the United States. From the summer of 1981 to the present, the percentage of U.S. workers represented by unions was cut in half from nearly a quarter of the workforce to barely 12 percent today-whole sections of the economy have become de-unionized. Real wages have been on the decline since then, while benefits and pensions have disappeared for tens of millions. The political power of American workers, though never great since the end of the Second World War, has been reduced to zero in many places. A whole generation of people has come of age since the PATCO strike to whom unions rarely, if ever, cross their minds.

I can understand the hate over it from folks who were affected decades ago....but in the last 31 years....it's had little impact on our economy. People who blame the woes of our Country seem really out of touch and treat it with a lot of generalization IMO.

The people you see in Unions today aren't asking for wages that break the Companies. What I've seen is people who would rather work to keep things going. Ruining the Company they work for is foolish. I give you the Eastern Airlines or Northwest Airlines work forces as examples. Delta Airlines paid a bit more than Union Wages to keep many of their folks from Unionizing and yet after 9-11-01...lots of them lost jobs. I'll understand that Airlines really were struggling at times but when you have a loyal work force...Management has been succesful in asking people to take cuts.

All of this change in Managements ideals makes little sense to most workers, they just want steady work, a decent wage and to know they can take their loved ones to the doctor for medical attention.

Amazingly some Companies force their employees to take the Company Store Healthcare Plans instead of requiring proof they are carrying Insurance. I know many American Indians in this State are covered by Indian Healthcare and instead of putting that burden on their Company...they asked for release from having to purchase the healthcare which would have reduced the company's liability in even catastrophic health events for that employee and/or his Family. You might say that it's because it would raise their rates? The one I know about...the company was Self-insured. They just hired an Insurance Company to implement the plan.

Beauracracy seems more of a problem than Unions in my mind these days.

I can understand someone might be concerned that any rise in Unionism might be an attack on the Private Sector...but in many of these jobs these days....I do see some complacent workers who are taking advantage of their employer...but I see an overwhelming majority that tire quickly of picking up the slack of people like that. Peer pressure can really have quite an effect on folks when they are putting everyone else's jobs at risk.

Food for thought....

[SoonerKnight]

TSA can't negotiate for anything. They can't even ask that the black mold that causes health problems be removed from the employee break area. Or to have an employee break area that is secured away from the goddamn idiot passengers.

[StoopTroup]

TSA can't negotiate for anything. They can't even ask that the black mold that causes health problems be removed from the employee break area. Or to have an employee break area that is secured away from the goddamn idiot passengers.

Those jobs suck balls. I know Air Travelers complain....but having a choice to starve or work an even ****ier job in some cases isn't much of a choice.

I'd be pretty unhappy and I worked years on commisions with no benefits.

I don't know how many folks do it.

What needs to really happen is the folks who should be handling Passenger Complaints ought to be folks like Scott Walker who continue to think Employees should be happy with the pay or find another job. I'd rather meet an employee who was happy to work there and gave really good passenger service and one I trusted to make calls that I knew were done to protect us all. As it is...nobody trusts anyone in the TSA and they damn sure don't trust that the Government is doing a good job in implementing the safety procedures. In our situation now....it's a faceless sterile expreience that when you do have a problem.....you aren't sure if you are going to end up needing a lawyer.

Not only are people in fear of Terrorist getting on the planes...they are in fear of being terrorized when checking through the security check points that lead to the gates.

It's pretty sad. Also...I know the Airlines were estatic when the Gov't said they were going to be responsible.

[SoonerKnight]

It took many many many calls to OSHA to just get us ear protection down in the baggage area. OSHA did test and we got the hearing protection and it only took 2.5 years to get it. Even the airlines provide hearing protection to the employees.

Hell we just wanted to be paid more than say the city bus driver. After all when you fly your depending on that person to be able to screen everyone's bags safely. Let's just say a low paid employee is not very motivated. Because the employee has too much on their mind. I don't fly any longer. Look at what TSA starts out paying it is quite pathetic.

[SoonerKnight]

Those jobs suck balls. I know Air Travelers complain....but having a choice to starve or work an even ****ier job in some cases.

I'd be pretty unhappy and I worked years on commisions with no benefits.

I don't know how many folks do it.

TSA really did suck. I was good at it. I liked the people but the management weren't qualified to manage a McDonald's according to an official government report.

[badger]

How were jobs saved?

Again, they were NOT, but the layoff notices got redacted, so some employees that received them are once again in budget limbo.

At least the layoff notice was somewhat of a warning, that they should start planning for the worse, get resume in order and contacts back in contact... although I'm sure that won't help them sleep at night or anything :(

[StoopTroup]

Things like layoff notices are pretty cruel when it wasn't needed.

Did anyone who made that decision to spend resources on issueing the notices get fired?

[SoonerKnight]

Those jobs suck balls. I know Air Travelers complain....but having a choice to starve or work an even ****ier job in some cases isn't much of a choice.

I'd be pretty unhappy and I worked years on commisions with no benefits.

I don't know how many folks do it.

What needs to really happen is the folks who should be handling Passenger Complaints ought to be folks like Scott Walker who continue to think Employees should be happy with the pay or find another job. I'd rather meet an employee who was happy to work there and gave really good passenger service and one I trusted to make calls that I knew were done to protect us all. As it is...nobody trusts anyone in the TSA and they damn sure don't trust that the Government is doing a good job in implementing the safety procedures. In our situation now....it's a faceless sterile expreience that when you do have a problem.....you aren't sure if you are going to end up needing a lawyer.

Not only are people in fear of Terrorist getting on the planes...they are in fear of being terrorized when checking through the security check points that lead to the gates.

It's pretty sad. Also...I know the Airlines were estatic when the Gov't said they were going to be responsible.

Well all these people that thought private industry was the way to go to enforce security at the aiports were stupid. After all it was United Airlines that put pressure on the FAA to approve box cutters on airplanes and small knives. The thing is that the terrorist on 9/11 did not have to sneak anything into the plane. It was all approved by the FAA and the airlines. The threats are real. The people that started working at TSA in 2002 after 9/11 were patriots. Many were veterans such as myself. One guy I worked with was a lawyer another was a doctor. They wanted to do something for the country. Instead they were quickly dissappointed and left. The ones that stayed were the ones that were going to be able to retire in a few years.

TSA did not do a lot of training after the initial training. They did testing but not proper training that would allow those who needed it to be proficient at their job. The first training software they bought for us were from egland. They showed images from machines that we don't use. It is not practical and was a waste of money.

The people that were our supervisors could not even pass the recert test because they did not do the job. They simply stood there and drank coffee and talked all day. Seriously the BS was astronomical. Hell I made the tester laugh because he had a southern accent so I told him I was going to conduct a pat down per the SOP and he says who worte the SOP? (in a southern drawl) So I replied "Forrest, Forrest Gump!) but I did it with an accent and he about pissed himself laughing so hard because he agreed and he was a contractor sent from another state to see if I was still able to do my job.

[StoopTroup]

When Sabre Corporation was in it's heyDay.....we had incentives to help come up with ideas that would save money. We shortened code and changed work rules and ticketing rules, commision to Travel Agents rules that would reduce the amount of key strokes an agent might need to make to streamline customer experience but also increase the effiiciency of agents...thus reducing the number of agents needed and allowing an enviroment that was free of the worry of losing ones job especially if your ideas saved 100x your pay over a career of 20-30 years. Later....of course...they got rid of the incentives and the lifecycle of the entire system was measured and nearly 80-90% of the workforce are gone. Laid off, sold off to another Company in order to get out of paying pensions and higher wages and fringe benefits.

The many who were loyal and inspired to buld a future ended up making a lot of money for the few and the few held stock....but had never paid for that stock like real stock holders...they received it as bonuses. Every dime of those bonuses should have been given to the real stockholders who risked their own money in order for the top brass to retire rich or move on to other opportunites. So many young folks really thought they were a part of something and later....they learned a valueable lesson in life.

Sabre was sold by their owner as competitors felt the owners had an unfair advantage by having access to all of Sabre's information. It was probably true and the company was sold and the employees dispursed.

Lots of money changed hands. It was really weird to see such a cool bunch of people have their lives changed like that when initially they were responsible in streamlining it into a giant revenue producer.

What you see of that company today is depressing.

[SoonerKnight]

Again, they were NOT, but the layoff notices got redacted, so some employees that received them are once again in budget limbo.

At least the layoff notice was somewhat of a warning, that they should start planning for the worse, get resume in order and contacts back in contact... although I'm sure that won't help them sleep at night or anything :(

Why did the govenor give business tax breaks when the state could not afford it? I'm not from there but I have read the news from there and can't understand how you could give a tax break to business and not afford it so you decide to cut public employees benefits. Granted their bennies were fantastic but they agreed and still he wanted collective barganing? Not sure he was in the right here. My city collective bargains with us over our hours and rate of pay also what holidays we get off and how much sick and vacation we can use. Our health and retirement bennies are not negotiated. That's all they had to do in WI and that would probably have helped. Like I wrote before when we negotiate with the city it always goes to arbitration and then we win. We win because we are usually right. We simply use data from other departments and the raise they got in the last few years and the salary they get and we simply ask to be on par with the other departments.

As Charlie would say "Duh Winning!" These other departments do not have unions like we do but they still get pretty good raises.

[HBick]

Why did the govenor give business tax breaks when the state could not afford it? I'm not from there but I have read the news from there and can't understand how you could give a tax break to business and not afford it so you decide to cut public employees benefits. Granted their bennies were fantastic but they agreed and still he wanted collective barganing? Not sure he was in the right here. My city collective bargains with us over our hours and rate of pay also what holidays we get off and how much sick and vacation we can use. Our health and retirement bennies are not negotiated. That's all they had to do in WI and that would probably have helped. Like I wrote before when we negotiate with the city it always goes to arbitration and then we win. We win because we are usually right. We simply use data from other departments and the raise they got in the last few years and the salary they get and we simply ask to be on par with the other departments.

Yeah I'm fuzzy on this as well, I understand that states don't want big business to leave, but at where is that line you draw in the sand?

And at the risk of sounding like a bleeding heart liberal, maybe if paid teachers more, more people would want to do and help educate our youth for the future. I think everyone agrees that education is important, but the main problem is how do we fund it?

As a recent graduate I think education is extremely important, but as soon as I've been out in the work force for a few years, don't have any kids (at this point god willing), I won't care as much about education. But if the point comes where I have kids, I think that my views would shift back to where they are now.

Just my $.02

[StoopTroup]

Well all these people that thought private industry was the way to go to enforce security at the aiports were stupid. After all it was United Airlines that put pressure on the FAA to approve box cutters on airplanes and small knives. The thing is that the terrorist on 9/11 did not have to sneak anything into the plane. It was all approved by the FAA and the airlines. The threats are real. The people that started working at TSA in 2002 after 9/11 were patriots. Many were veterans such as myself. One guy I worked with was a lawyer another was a doctor. They wanted to do something for the country. Instead they were quickly dissappointed and left. The ones that stayed were the ones that were going to be able to retire in a few years.

TSA did not do a lot of training after the initial training. They did testing but not proper training that would allow those who needed it to be proficient at their job. The first training software they bought for us were from egland. They showed images from machines that we don't use. It is not practical and was a waste of money.

The people that were our supervisors could not even pass the recert test because they did not do the job. They simply stood there and drank coffee and talked all day. Seriously the BS was astronomical. Hell I made the tester laugh because he had a southern accent so I told him I was going to conduct a pat down per the SOP and he says who worte the SOP? (in a southern drawl) So I replied "Forrest, Forrest Gump!) but I did it with an accent and he about pissed himself laughing so hard because he agreed and he was a contractor sent from another state to see if I was still able to do my job.

Good Stuff. Yeah I remember the first folks...a good number of them really thought those jobs were going to be treated like Air Marshall's were....as I understand thing now...the Air Marshalls have suffered ups and downs in regards to feeling they are empowered to do the right thing sometimes.

We need to push to make all of that a better experience for not only passengers but the folks who perform those duties.

The old days of air travel may be gone forever....but the threat of folks who wish us all harm is off the charts.

Seeing people on the 9-11-01 Flights fight to save their fellow man gave me hope that we would rally around each other and make our Country's Transportation System look like a professional enjoyable experience that people (even those who traveled each day) would look forward towards when traveling about our Great Country. It doesn't come close anymore. We have huge problems that don't look to be fixed for decades.

When I was a kid....Air Travel, Train Travel....it was all a big deal. People really got into the experience. Now....people are stressed before they log on to buy a ticket.

[SoonerKnight]

Samsung changed their companies image by offering the employees a monatary bonus for every defect that they find on the assembly line. The quality of their products went up quite a bit. Remember Hyundai when they first came to the U.S. they were a joke. Now they make really good cars. They also have high expectations for their employees but they compensate them well.

You can't tell a teacher oh hey we are going to make you take tests and all this other **** and we'll fire you if a retarded kid that you did not know was retarded fails your class or this standard test we give every year. So you better learn for these kids or we'll fire you. Oh by the way we are going to cut your bennies!

[MamaMia]

It took many many many calls to OSHA to just get us ear protection down in the baggage area. OSHA did test and we got the hearing protection and it only took 2.5 years to get it. Even the airlines provide hearing protection to the employees.

Hell we just wanted to be paid more than say the city bus driver. After all when you fly your depending on that person to be able to screen everyone's bags safely. Let's just say a low paid employee is not very motivated. Because the employee has too much on their mind. I don't fly any longer. Look at what TSA starts out paying it is quite pathetic.What kind of ear protection did they get? :confused:

[StoopTroup]

Samsung changed their companies image by offering the employees a monatary bonus for every defect that they find on the assembly line. The quality of their products went up quite a bit. Remember Hyundai when they first came to the U.S. they were a joke. Now they make really good cars. They also have high expectations for their employees but they compensate them well.

You can't tell a teacher oh hey we are going to make you take tests and all this other **** and we'll fire you if a retarded kid that you did not know was retarded fails your class or this standard test we give every year. So you better learn for these kids or we'll fire you. Oh by the way we are going to cut your bennies!

yup

[StoopTroup]

What kind of ear protection did they get? :confused:

OSHA Approved I'm guessing...prior to them asking for it...I'd imagine they scrounged around to get some.

[SoonerKnight]

Good Stuff. Yeah I remember the first folks...a good number of them really thought those jobs were going to be treated like Air Marshall's were....as I understand thing now...the Air Marshalls have suffered ups and downs in regards to feeling they are empowered to do the right thing sometimes.

We need to push to make all of that a better experience for not only passengers but the folks who perform those duties.

The old days of air travel may be gone forever....but the threat of folks who wish us all harm is off the charts.

Seeing people on the 9-11-01 Flights fight to save their fellow man gave me hope that we would rally around each other and make our Country's Transportation System look like a professional enjoyable experience that people (even those who traveled each day) would look forward towards when traveling about our Great Country. It doesn't come close anymore. We have huge problems that don't look to be fixed for decades.

When I was a kid....Air Travel, Train Travel....it was all a big deal. People really got into the experience. Now....people are stressed before they log on to buy a ticket.


Actually even though I am not working there anymore (thank god) I was dissappointed the POTUS (the current one) has not done more to help TSA. I mean seriously the starting pay for TSA is $23,600 a year. The air marshalls have a huge problem with turnover because the agents are treated like ****.

[SoonerKnight]

OSHA Approved I'm guessing...prior to them asking for it...I'd imagine they scrounged around to get some.

No, before we got it we just did not have it. The airline employees always laughed. Ear phones kind and the foamy kind we used both at the same time. It was loud.

[MamaMia]

No, before we got it we just did not have it. The airline employees always laughed. Ear phones kind and the foamy kind we used both at the same time. It was loud. You can buy really good ear/hearing protection plugs or muffs at any gun store for about 30 to 40 bucks.

[SoonerKnight]

Are you saying that it is the employees responsibillity to buy their own safety eqippment? Seems a bit odd that I would have to buy my own safety equippment when they are required to provide it. Should I have removed the black mold from our break area myself too? Besides we weren't allowed to have our own eqippment.

[OutlandTrophy]

Are you saying that it is the employees responsibillity to buy their own safety eqippment? Seems a bit odd that I would have to buy my own safety equippment when they are required to provide it. Should I have removed the black mold from our break area myself too? Besides we weren't allowed to have our own eqippment.

common sense says, Yes. I'm not saying that it's not a ****ty thing for an employer to do but hearing is pretty important to me and I've had to buy my own hearing protection when an employer wouldn't/didn't.

Also, please explain this black mold thing to me. What about it makes people sick and which strain of mold are you specifically talking about?

[MamaMia]

Are you saying that it is the employees responsibillity to buy their own safety eqippment? Seems a bit odd that I would have to buy my own safety equippment when they are required to provide it. Should I have removed the black mold from our break area myself too? Besides we weren't allowed to have our own eqippment. It would be nice if they bought them for you but you can deduct the full price from your taxes. People buy scrubs, gloves, safety goggles, steel toed boots and all kinds of things for work.

[Leroy Lizard]

Actually even though I am not working there anymore (thank god) I was dissappointed the POTUS (the current one) has not done more to help TSA. I mean seriously the starting pay for TSA is $23,600 a year. The air marshalls have a huge problem with turnover because the agents are treated like ****.

Such is what happens when you forgo getting an education.

[pphilfran]

You do not need a union to call OSHA...

Had the airport operator done noise level checks? Were the areas designated as high noise areas and hearing protection was mandatory?

Foam and the plastic protection can be used without any training...the big head phone type hearing protection should also require training for proper use...

The union had nothing to do with getting OSHA involved...they might want to take credit for the getting them in the plant....

[TheHumanAlphabet]

That's what I don't get.

Did you have to wait until the company provided them. Hell, you can go to almost any store and buy the foam plugs for cheap...

[StoopTroup]

It would be nice if they bought them for you but you can deduct the full price from your taxes. People buy scrubs, gloves, safety goggles, steel toed boots and all kinds of things for work.

It's funny as I see a world where you think things like that have such simple solutions. I have lived in a World that watches the scenario you speak of take place on a daily basis. It gets right down to where do you draw the line and how does one thing work like you say it should and another is totally the opposite?

When a Pilot hires on at an airline should he have to buy the plane?

Should a mechanic have to buy a welding mask if he needs to make a small weld once a year?

Should a Secretary buy her own ergonomic chair or keyboard?

Should a IT Specialist get the latest and greatest laptop, PDA or IPAD everytime there is an upgrade? Why shouldn't they pay for it all?

If an employee gets run over by a peice of equipment should he pay for the medical care or should the employer fire him and they guy running the equipment and hire two other people?

Yeah it's just ear plugs...but when you have an emergency and people have to be moved into an area that is high in noise decibels...it's best they have they around and that they are fresh and plentiful.

I've seen other folks have to be made to wear safety equipment. They end up with long term problems and then sue. At that point...having a few ear plugs would have been cheaper than 10-20 people who lost their hearing or eyesight at work.

Just sayin'.

[MR2-Sooner86]

You can't tell a teacher oh hey we are going to make you take tests and all this other **** and we'll fire you if a retarded kid that you did not know was retarded fails your class or this standard test we give every year. So you better learn for these kids or we'll fire you. Oh by the way we are going to cut your bennies!

That statement is so far reality I can't help but laugh.

A. Teachers aren't starving like many think they are.
B. They get decent benefits.
C. They get to retire very early with benefits for life.

Good teachers are worth their weight in gold but lets not at like they're living off bread crumbs with an axe dangling over their head at all times.

Politico reported that Michael Mulvey, a high school algebra teacher in Wauwatosa, Walker’s hometown, held a sign that read: “Scott, I taught your son algebra. My son just turned 5. Does he deserve a good education?”

Mulvey makes $46,687 in base salary and $25,481 in “fringe benefits,” which include health insurance, life insurance and retirement pay.

Politico also reported that a high school math teacher from Green Bay, Karen Hill, traveled to Madison on a bus full of fellow teachers to protests, and held a sign that read, “negotiate not dictate.”

Hill makes $59,695 in base salary with an additional $28,398 in benefits.

Martha Vasquez, an art teacher in Madison, told Politico that she was irked more at former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin chiming into the debate than she was at Walker.

“I was really surprised when Sarah Palin weighted in,” Vasquez said. “This bill is ripping apart the of what it means to be a Wisconsinite. We value education.”

Vasquez makes $50,018 in base salary and $11,188 in benefits.

Kevin Yeske, the assistant principal of Lincoln High School in Wisconsin Rapids, allowed students 20 minutes of one of their school days to protest Walker’s budget, and provided two school staffers to supervise the protest.

“I was really impressed with our students,” Yeske told the Wisconsin Rapids Tribune. “They wanted to make a statement, but we want to make sure we don’t do any damage or consequences (to the school day); it was very well done.”

Yeske makes $94,262 in base salary with an additional $35,076 in benefits.

Henri Kinson, a former school board member in Whitewater, Wisc., told TheDC teachers receive five years of full health insurance after they retire, as long they worked for at least 10 years in the state. Kinson said that costs about $100,000 per teacher, funding he said comes from local school boards’ classroom and educational materials budgets – and could be used for more textbooks, technology for students and other learning materials.

Kinson also said that the approximately $100,000 per teacher post-retirement health insurance plans don’t show up in the database of school employees’ salaries and benefits because when the teachers get them, they’re not employees anymore.

11:52 a.m. – Bert Zipperer, a Madison middle school guidance counselor, said Walker is “power drunk” and that he and fellow teachers are going to “sober him up.”

Zipperer makes $62, 062 in base salary with an additional $26,847 in benefits.

12:06 p.m. – Teacher Leah Gustafson held a sign in Madison that read: “Scott, your son is in my class. I teach him, I protect him, I inspire him.”

Gustafson makes $40,921 in base salary with $16,325 in benefits.

1:27 p.m. – Julie Fitzpatrick, a first-grade teacher at Elvehjem Elementary School in Madison, told the Wisconsin State Journal with teary eyes that this bill is about “so much more than teachers,” and she was glad to have her students’ parents’ support while she protested at the capitol all last week. She is back teaching as of Tuesday morning.

Fitzpatrick makes $64,569 in base salary and $27,637 in benefits.

The average Wisconsin worker in 2009 made $37,398, per the Department of Commerce. Also, teachers are out of the classroom for 13 or 14 weeks of the year, according to the Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction. (http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/22/send-us-the-names-of-wisconsin-teachers-complaining-about-walker-to-the-press-and-well-tell-you-their-salaries/)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/graphic/2011-02/59702141.jpg

Now the above talks about tenure. Well how long does it take you to make tenure in Wisconsin?

Wisconsin Highlights
$51,240 Avg. Elementary Teacher Salary
$42,260 Avg. Secondary Teacher Salary
134% Teacher Salary vs. State Average
15 Vacation Weeks Per Year
3 Years to Tenure
(http://certificationmap.com/states/wisconsin-teacher-certification/)

[pphilfran]

It's funny as I see a world where you think things like that have such simple solutions. I have lived in a World that watches the scenario you speak of take place on a daily basis. It gets right down to where do you draw the line and how does one thing work like you say it should and another is totally the opposite?

When a Pilot hires on at an airline should he have to buy the plane?

Should a mechanic have to buy a welding mask if he needs to make a small weld once a year?

Should a Secretary buy her own ergonomic chair or keyboard?

Should a IT Specialist get the latest and greatest laptop, PDA or IPAD everytime there is an upgrade? Why shouldn't they pay for it all?

If an employee gets run over by a peice of equipment should he pay for the medical care or should the employer fire him and they guy running the equipment and hire two other people?

Yeah it's just ear plugs...but when you have an emergency and people have to be moved into an area that is high in noise decibels...it's best they have they around and that they are fresh and plentiful.

I've seen other folks have to be made to wear safety equipment. They end up with long term problems and then sue. At that point...having a few ear plugs would have been cheaper than 10-20 people who lost their hearing or eyesight at work.

Just sayin'.

No one should have to buy their own...

Was hearing protection mandatory in those areas...were signs posted...why would you need a union to call OSHA...and why did it take so long for OSHA to respond...

I have never seen OSHA take longer than two weeks to investigate a complaint that was made by a union or non union associate...

[StoopTroup]

Right now the big deal as far as I know is getting an OSHA recordable. I'm not sure what affect it has on the businesses but they seem pretty meh on the fines. I wonder what the underlying reason is for them trying to avoid them is.

[pphilfran]

Right now the big deal as far as I know is getting an OSHA recordable. I'm not sure what affect it has on the businesses but they seem pretty meh on the fines. I wonder what the underlying reason is for them trying to avoid them is.

Accidents? They greatly increase the companies insurance costs...

I got a gash in my head and was bleeding like a stuck pig...I was staggering around until an EMT saw me...

He took me to the dispensary and said I probably needed stitches...I begged him to see if he could stop the bleeding...and by luck he did...he slapped on a couple of butterfly bandages and I worked the rest of the day...

I was mid management at the time...I wasn't going to be a recordable...:)

[Aldebaran]

If republicans have their way OSHA funding will get cut and "problems" like these will just go away.

[pphilfran]

If republicans have their way OSHA funding will get cut and "problems" like these will just go away.

OSHA is a joke...

100% reactive...NEVER and unannounced audit...

[MR2-Sooner86]

If republicans have their way OSHA funding will get cut and "problems" like these will just go away.

So? OSHA is the biggest joke ever.

My dad's cousin and best friend was killed in Tulsa in '88 because some guys were cutting a gas-line with a grinder. It blew up the tank and sliced him in half.

What did OSHA do? Slapped a $300 fine on the company and said, "Don't do that." Yup, they really showed them! His wife so devastated from that. She asked my dad, "Is that all he was worth? Just $300 dollars?"

Isn't government wonderful folks? Why we keep getting more each year. :rolleyes:

[Aldebaran]

Well... you wouldn't want to go and punish a business for the actions of an individual would you? Why do you hate America?

[MR2-Sooner86]

Well... you wouldn't want to go and punish a business for the actions of an individual would you?

Individuals. Was the entire crew doing it, not doing it correctly, cutting corners, and it ended up killing somebody.

I know, you probably don't care because showing any sympathy for a death and OSHA's inability to deal with it would devalue any argument you have. I understand. I don't expect to hear such a thing.


Why do you hate America?

Coming from a guy who wished more of our soldiers had died in World War II, that's rich.

[REDREX]

OSHA is a joke...

100% reactive...NEVER and unannounced audit...----Very true----We were once written up for improper toliet seats and not having enough coat hangers on the back of the toilet door

[MamaMia]

It's funny as I see a world where you think things like that have such simple solutions. I have lived in a World that watches the scenario you speak of take place on a daily basis. It gets right down to where do you draw the line and how does one thing work like you say it should and another is totally the opposite?

When a Pilot hires on at an airline should he have to buy the plane?

Should a mechanic have to buy a welding mask if he needs to make a small weld once a year?

Should a Secretary buy her own ergonomic chair or keyboard?

Should a IT Specialist get the latest and greatest laptop, PDA or IPAD everytime there is an upgrade? Why shouldn't they pay for it all?

If an employee gets run over by a peice of equipment should he pay for the medical care or should the employer fire him and they guy running the equipment and hire two other people?

Yeah it's just ear plugs...but when you have an emergency and people have to be moved into an area that is high in noise decibels...it's best they have they around and that they are fresh and plentiful.

I've seen other folks have to be made to wear safety equipment. They end up with long term problems and then sue. At that point...having a few ear plugs would have been cheaper than 10-20 people who lost their hearing or eyesight at work.

Just sayin'. You are comparing the price of a plane to a stinkin' pair of 30 buck safety muffs? Exaggerate much? I have purchased a lot of petty things pertaining to work that don't cost much. I deduct it. But then I'm not a government employee so I wouldn't know how to go about having that kind of mindset.
You do not need a union to call OSHA...

Had the airport operator done noise level checks? Were the areas designated as high noise areas and hearing protection was mandatory?

Foam and the plastic protection can be used without any training...the big head phone type hearing protection should also require training for proper use...

The union had nothing to do with getting OSHA involved...they might want to take credit for the getting them in the plant....Nobody had to train me to wear the pair of muffs I bought for target shooting.

[badger]

Wisky update: Some liberal/Dem/lefties (whatever the preferred term is around here... in the most neutral toned way possible, of course) groups are getting recall efforts pretty much solidified on three vulnerable conservative/Repub/rightie (whatever the preferred term is around here, still neutral!) state Senators. Why three? If they switched three, the Dems would have the majority in the state Senate again.

There are also efforts to get the Senate decision overturned, saying that it violated the open meeting act requiring that notices about votes be posted 24 hours in advance. Even if the original decision is overturned, I don't see them not passing it again... and hopefully when they do, they will have the needed security and law enforcement on hand to maintain order... whether or not the state Senate Dems hop the border again down to Chicago hotels :(

I am just not sure if these efforts will have much effect, if any, other than keeping Wisconsin in the national spotlight. Even if the Democrats feel they had a fast one pulled on them by the Republicans... they technically tried to pull a fast one on the Republicans by leaving the state. As could be expected, the upper hand in the end will go to the majority party, especially if the governor sides with em.

I hope this all works out for Wisconsin. I am starting to see more and more why my mom was adamantly against (repeat: ADAMANTLY against) me going to college at UW. Guess where she sent me instead :D

[Leroy Lizard]

Should a mechanic have to buy a welding mask if he needs to make a small weld once a year?

A mechanic making a weld? Are you sure you're a union man?

[Leroy Lizard]

Wisky update: Some liberal/Dem/lefties (whatever the preferred term is around here... in the most neutral toned way possible, of course) groups are getting recall efforts pretty much solidified on three vulnerable conservative/Repub/rightie (whatever the preferred term is around here, still neutral!) state Senators. Why three? If they switched three, the Dems would have the majority in the state Senate again.

So they only target three, making 100% success the only effective result.

Brilliant.

[StoopTroup]

You are comparing the price of a plane to a stinkin' pair of 30 buck safety muffs? Exaggerate much? I have purchased a lot of petty things pertaining to work that don't cost much. I deduct it. But then I'm not a government employee so I wouldn't know how to go about having that kind of mindset.Nobody had to train me to wear the pair of muffs I bought for target shooting.

No I'm not exaggerating I was making a point. Yes it's silly to expect a Pilot to buy a plane.

Is it silly though for a company to expect a mechanic to amass $30,000-40,000 in tools over a career or head out to the Snap-on Tool Truck with his Credit Card everytime they fail to tool up for a job, when a person who answers a phone gets taken to lunch every Friday by the Boss and given a Computer, a head-set, a copier, pens, paper clips, erognomic chair and keyboard, optical cordless mouse....

Where do you draw the line was the point.

If I'm getting ready to have surgery I'd like to know the surgery unit is providing all the scrubs and gloves and equipment and know that it's not just been bought down at Walgreens.

[StoopTroup]

A mechanic making a weld? Are you sure you're a union man?

I know I'm not....I work for a Company with one though

[okie52]

Coming from a guy who wished more of our soldiers had died in World War II, that's rich.

Surely he didn't say that, did he?

[MR2-Sooner86]

Surely he didn't say that, did he?

Yes he did, and don't call me Shirley :mad:

[tcrb]

Right now the big deal as far as I know is getting an OSHA recordable. I'm not sure what affect it has on the businesses but they seem pretty meh on the fines. I wonder what the underlying reason is for them trying to avoid them is.

As a Safety Professional with over 30 years experience in the Airline and Petrochemical industries, I feel qualified to comment on this. OSHA recordables do not, in and of themselves, generate fines. What generates a fine is a violation of one of the policies stated in CFR49, 1910 and 1926. An injury that qualifies as a "recordable" will affect the WC insurance rates that the company pays. But more importantly, for resident contractors, it will affect their ability to win bids. No refinery owner wants to hire a contractor that has a bad safety record because the contractor's record will also affect the safety record of the plant owner. Also, alot of it nowadays is PR based, in that refinerys and chemical plants are already getting a bad rap from the environmentalists. When people get hurt or killed in your plant, or you have an environmental incident, it puts a bad spotlight on your company.


OSHA is a joke...

100% reactive...NEVER and unannounced audit...

If you were in my profession you would know that OSHA is no joke. I've been witness to plenty of unannounced audits and targeted inspections. The primary obstacle for OSHA is that their resources are extremely limited. There simply aren't enough OSHA inspectors to cover all the industries, so they concentrate on the ones that have the greatest risk....petroleum, chemical and construction.


So? OSHA is the biggest joke ever.

My dad's cousin and best friend was killed in Tulsa in '88 because some guys were cutting a gas-line with a grinder. It blew up the tank and sliced him in half.

What did OSHA do? Slapped a $300 fine on the company and said, "Don't do that." Yup, they really showed them! His wife so devastated from that. She asked my dad, "Is that all he was worth? Just $300 dollars?"

Isn't government wonderful folks? Why we keep getting more each year. :rolleyes:

Just because there is a fatality, doesn't necessarily mean that there will be a big fine handed out. Like I said above, fines are generated by CFR violations. I dont know the particulars of the case you mention, but if the employer was not in violation of any of the regulations, or if the only violation discovered in the investigation was minor and didn't actually cause the incident, the fine would have been minor. It could be that the deceased person himself committed a willful violation on his own accord and that's what caused that incident. I'm not speculating, just offering up a possible explanation as to why the fine was minor. OSHA DOES do a pretty thorough investigation when there is a fatality, and just because the fine was nominal in this case does not in any way reflect on the "value" of your dad's co-worker's life. The $ amount of a fine is in no way compensatory in nature. Also, in 1988, OSHA was still in its infancy stage and their resources were really limited in those days.

[okie52]

Yes he did, and don't call me Shirley :mad:

Sorry surely...I was confused by benedict arnold.

[Leroy Lizard]

Is it silly though for a company to expect a mechanic to amass $30,000-40,000 in tools over a career or head out to the Snap-on Tool Truck with his Credit Card everytime they fail to tool up for a job...

When I was a mechanic I definitely had to own my own tools. I had a Mac toolbox stuffed with about $8,000 in tools, and that was in the late 1970s.

[TitoMorelli]

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/local_schools/article_bf93a6ba-4e8e-11e0-a6eb-001cc4c03286.html


Students in the Madison School District will have up to 20 minutes of additional classroom time each day starting Monday to make up for four days canceled last month because teachers were attending protests.

Because no additional days will be added to the calendar, most teachers will not receive additional compensation for that time, district spokesman Ken Syke said.

Madison schools were closed to students Feb. 16-18 and Feb. 21 because a significant number of teachers called in sick to attend protests against a state proposal to limit public employee collective bargaining. Gov. Scott Walker signed it into law Friday.

The School Board reached an agreement with Madison Teachers Inc. over the weekend that allowed the district to set the makeup calendar. The agreement also ensures teachers with unexcused absences will not be paid for those days and that teachers who submitted fraudulent sick notes will be suspended.

The district has not yet released the number of teachers that missed school to work those days. The district received more than 1,000 sick notes, including some from doctors who were handing them out at the Capitol protests, assistant legal counsel Matt Bell said.

The Department of Public Instruction requires schools to have a specific number of days and hours of instruction during the school year. The extra time will be added to the end of the school day and vary between elementary, middle and high schools:

• Elementary schools will have 20 minutes added per day, a full day on March 29, rather than a half-day, and 65 minutes added on the last day of school, June 10.

• Middle schools will have 12 minutes added per day, including Wednesdays, which will replace professional collaboration time.

• East, West and Memorial high schools will have 15 minutes and La Follette High School will have 18 minutes added. Those will be on top of minutes already added for a Feb. 2 snow day. The last day of school will be a full day instead of half-day.

[SoonerKnight]

Such is what happens when you forgo getting an education.

And if you knew anything then you could speak. I have a four year degree!

[SoonerKnight]

That's what I don't get.

Did you have to wait until the company provided them. Hell, you can go to almost any store and buy the foam plugs for cheap...

Not a company. This is the federal government. They were so lost they didn't know what the right hand was doing! Odd to file complaint after complaint and even have a meeting with the congressman to get things fixed. Everyone who showed up. Got fired for complaining! A union at least would have been able to fix some of the issues quicker. Management would have been more inclined to listen.

[MamaMia]

No I'm not exaggerating I was making a point. Yes it's silly to expect a Pilot to buy a plane.

Is it silly though for a company to expect a mechanic to amass $30,000-40,000 in tools over a career or head out to the Snap-on Tool Truck with his Credit Card everytime they fail to tool up for a job, when a person who answers a phone gets taken to lunch every Friday by the Boss and given a Computer, a head-set, a copier, pens, paper clips, erognomic chair and keyboard, optical cordless mouse....

Where do you draw the line was the point.

If I'm getting ready to have surgery I'd like to know the surgery unit is providing all the scrubs and gloves and equipment and know that it's not just been bought down at Walgreens.You were not making a point. You were 'trying' to make a point, in an exaggerated way. Use examples that are more in tune with the point you are trying to make. That will prevent what you are conveying from being overshadowed by exaggeration. :D

[SoonerKnight]

When I was a mechanic I definitely had to own my own tools. I had a Mac toolbox stuffed with about $8,000 in tools, and that was in the late 1970s.

Yes, but TSA is not a car shop! :rolleyes: It where passengers are screened before they get on airplanes. You might be against the screeners Leroy but hey it is always the people like you that complain when they get screened but better not let anything happen to that plane!!

Like I said many if not most of the screeners had college education and were veterans. We applied for the job because we did not want to see another 9/11. Saying that our low pay is because we didn't have an education is really low even for you! And you look better with red!

[TitoMorelli]

Yes, but TSA is not a car shop! :rolleyes: It where passengers are screened before they get on airplanes. You might be against the screeners Leroy but hey it is always the people like you that complain when they get screened but better not let anything happen to that plane!!

Like I said many if not most of the screeners had college education and were veterans. We applied for the job because we did not want to see another 9/11. Saying that our low pay is because we didn't have an education is really low even for you! And you look better with red!

:D

[SoonerKnight]

You are comparing the price of a plane to a stinkin' pair of 30 buck safety muffs? Exaggerate much? I have purchased a lot of petty things pertaining to work that don't cost much. I deduct it. But then I'm not a government employee so I wouldn't know how to go about having that kind of mindset.Nobody had to train me to wear the pair of muffs I bought for target shooting.

Mama,

First of all if we had to pay for the gloves we used we would have all starved. Airports would have shut down etc. What I was referring to was that everyday we were screened just like everyone else just to go to work. We were not allowed to have certain items. We tried to let them let us bring in protection. They said no. We tried to get them to understand that in the baggage area underneath the airport and where I worked there was a building that was on the tarmac that handle baggage. When we creened these bags the planes were revving their engines, machinery was moving and it was loud. We needed to have ear protection so we would not go deaf. They refused unitl OSHA took sound readings and said it was too loud. Again this is a federal entity that did not comply with federal standards.

One day I'll tell ya about a manager at TSA getting arressted for stealing our bonus money!

[pphilfran]

You are comparing the price of a plane to a stinkin' pair of 30 buck safety muffs? Exaggerate much? I have purchased a lot of petty things pertaining to work that don't cost much. I deduct it. But then I'm not a government employee so I wouldn't know how to go about having that kind of mindset.Nobody had to train me to wear the pair of muffs I bought for target shooting.

In the workplace you must be given a short training session when using the protective ear muffs...the little foam deals not so much....

[SoonerKnight]

They are.

As far as StoopTroops remark that these Wisconsinites are acting like the tea party folks...not even close. There were only a couple of nuts with stupid signs per thousand in the tea party gatherings. The tea party members were peaceful and cleaned up the areas in which they gathered. These nuts are anything but. They are trashing the capital, crawling through windows like snakes. being loud, obnoxious, disruptive of due process, threatening people and attacking Fox news correspondents.

Uh...I just read what he said and understood it to be just that. Its called comprehension.

I did not know Fox had a news channel!! :confused:

[Leroy Lizard]

And if you knew anything then you could speak. I have a four year degree!

I didn't realize this was all about you.

[pphilfran]

If you were in my profession you would know that OSHA is no joke. I've been witness to plenty of unannounced audits and targeted inspections. The primary obstacle for OSHA is that their resources are extremely limited. There simply aren't enough OSHA inspectors to cover all the industries, so they concentrate on the ones that have the greatest risk....petroleum, chemical and construction.



.


I can buy that...I will change my stance to....in manufacturing OSHA is a joke...it is only reactive...

I agree 100% on your statement that they lack resources...and that goes back to the fact that our leaders in DC are damn good at setting up organizations that lack the manning to audit the systems that are put into place by the fed...

Oil platform explosion...poor auditing..

Banking failures...poor auditing...

Bernie Madoff...poor auditing...

Most fed safety programs were pushed onto the manufacturer...and that is logical and the most cost effective method...

DOT sets the standards for tires...a certain load range tire must run x amount of hours, at y speed, and at z load...all testing is done in house with no DOT assistance...this testing is done multiple times during the development and early manufacturing process...the tire is also tested on a continuous basis to see if the process had held true...initial development data was sent in with other pertinent info for final DOT approval...

Goodyear would test to higher standards then the DOT required...we wanted a more robust tire...but it would have been a simple case to fudge the data that was sent in to DOT...

Take the Firestone Explorer/SUV tire fiasco from a few years back...Ford spec'd a very flimsy tire for he Explorer...they wanted the tire to weigh less (better fuel mileage...cheaper to buy)...we had a hard time meeting the Ford requirements and passing DOT testing....yes, we had our tires pass the DOT standards but we did not like what the results were showing...too many failures too close to the limits for our liking...we failed to bid on the initial contracts...

Firestone bid and was awarded the contract...

Our testing of the Firestone tire in question showed that it passed the OSHA standard for high speed...but only by he hair of its chinny, chin, chin...

Cut tire analysis showed that they had thin undertread...a .030" of rubber under the tread that helped the tread adhere to the belt package...

Our belief was that one of these tires run under inflated for any period of time allowed excessive heat to build up (at least in this particular tire) and that heat history caused the loss of adhesion between the tread and belt package...

I do know that a combination of questionable design..loss of manufacturing control...barely adequate regulation...and no followup from DOT...caused the problem with the tread alligators...

I am not sure if the data supplied by Firestone manufacturing was accurate...the test that we performed on their tire suggests that since our results were so close to failure that there would be a significant population of tires in the market that would have failed...

My point being the fed must do random audits at a reasonable time frame...it is all well and good to post a 75 mph speed limit on HEB...but what type of compliance would there be to the posted limit if there was only one hypo on the road 1 day a week..and drivers knew in advance what day of the week they would be patrolling..

Sorry for the change of direction...

[Leroy Lizard]

Yes, but TSA is not a car shop! :rolleyes: It where passengers are screened before they get on airplanes. You might be against the screeners Leroy but hey it is always the people like you that complain when they get screened but better not let anything happen to that plane!!

I was just responding to the point about mechanics. I don't give a care about the screeners.


Like I said many if not most of the screeners had college education and were veterans. We applied for the job because we did not want to see another 9/11. Saying that our low pay is because we didn't have an education is really low even for you! And you look better with red!

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you took the job out of a concern for civic duty and not the pay?

[pphilfran]

Damn, Liz..you are up early...defending your flag...you too SK...

[MamaMia]

Mama,

First of all if we had to pay for the gloves we used we would have all starved. Airports would have shut down etc. What I was referring to was that everyday we were screened just like everyone else just to go to work. We were not allowed to have certain items. We tried to let them let us bring in protection. They said no. We tried to get them to understand that in the baggage area underneath the airport and where I worked there was a building that was on the tarmac that handle baggage. When we creened these bags the planes were revving their engines, machinery was moving and it was loud. We needed to have ear protection so we would not go deaf. They refused unitl OSHA took sound readings and said it was too loud. Again this is a federal entity that did not comply with federal standards.

One day I'll tell ya about a manager at TSA getting arressted for stealing our bonus money!They should have gotten some muffs for y'all, especially since you asked.

On another note: Maryland had a union rally. Some Dem Gov. named Martin O'Malley is having to deal with the same budget issues in the same way as the states with the republican Govs. Since he's a Dem however, there was little, if any press on him having to make the tough choices.

[badger]

So they only target three, making 100% success the only effective result.

Brilliant.

I'm only viewing your posts because this thread is about my beloved birth state :P

But you bring up a good point, and to clarify, there are Dems that would love to... what's the tea party's chant? "Throw all the bums out?" Yes, that's what they've been saying, but the problem is that Wisconsin laws stipulate that an elected official must be office at least one year before they can be recalled. Thus, no recalling the hated Gov. Walker, no recalling many of the recently elected Republicans during this past wave of Democrat hate in election 2010.

Even, if they are successful in recalling the three, you have to remember how long it took to recall hated California Gov. Gray Davis (months). By that time, the bill, even if they have to revote on it and such, will get ratified by the House and the government will move on.

That being said, Republicans have to remember how they took control of many state governments and federal positions (Congress) during the 2010 election... because people were disgusted at how the Dems forced Obamacare down their throats against their wishes. Doing the same thing now with anti-union legislation is going to have the same result -- energized voters ready to... yeah, throw all the bums out.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

That being said, Republicans have to remember how they took control of many state governments and federal positions (Congress) during the 2010 election... because people were disgusted at how the Dems forced Obamacare down their throats against their wishes. Doing the same thing now with anti-union legislation is going to have the same result -- energized voters ready to... yeah, throw all the bums out.Of course, the big difference, is that it's probable that there are more people who are angry with govt. growth, spending, and bullying than there are those who don't want to upset the govt. unions' applecart. It prolly comes down to how much fraudulent support the left can deliver to remove the conservatives who got elected.

[badger]

Public opinion is very important when you rely on the public to vote you. Both sides have got to remember that and sell their ideas to the public as well as their fellow elected officials.

The Republicans side of me felt like giggling when the Dems had that fast one pulled on them. The rest of me felt ashamed that fellow Wisconsinites (still consider myself one, even though I haven't lived there in 10 years almost) would pull such a dirty trick.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Public opinion is very important when you rely on the public to vote you. Both sides have got to remember that and sell their ideas to the public as well as their fellow elected officials.

The Republicans side of me felt like giggling when the Dems had that FAST ONE pulled on them. The rest of me felt ashamed that fellow Wisconsinites (still consider myself one, even though I haven't lived there in 10 years almost) would pull SUCH A DIRTY TRICK.What dirty trick are you referring to? Whatever it is, seems to me the Dems got dirty first, by leaving the state and refusing to vote.