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soonercruiser
3/5/2011, 02:10 PM
Spent some time cooling my heels on the PT Cruiser Perfromance Forums.
There had been a lot of "opinion" post on pros & cons of 10-15% Ethanol in gasoline, with some expert opinions.
Having made the mistake of quoting some of the so-called experts once, I asked for links to the facts. (Everyone is entitled to their own "opinion"; but, not their own f"acts"!)

I really only got or two good studies/stories that way, and ended up doing a lot of searches on Google.

This is not a political opinion post on the value of weaning ourselves of of fossil fuels. As, even I know that is going to be needed for our future.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS:
-Ethanol fuels burn at a cooler temperature.
-Ethanol fuels combust easier, thus the increase on HP and engine torque (NASCAR geeks aren't dummies)
BUT....
-Ethanol fuels produce less overall BTUs
-Ethanol fuels will decrease fuel mileage in the range of 10% plus, depending on blend and ambient temps (worst where it is COLD)
-Ethanol requires 3-4x more energy to produce than gasoline
*Currently, Ethanol fuels are receiving a 30-40 cent per gallon federal susidy; artificially making them look cost effective
-The major part of the U.S. corn production is being used for Ethanol production; leaving little for export abraod.

I break this here, and post some link, stories, studies in the next posts.

Sooner5030
3/5/2011, 02:17 PM
I'm all for micro (at home) ethyl alcohol production. It's fun and rewarding just for the self-reliance alone. But at my home I can decide what food (sweet potatoes) is excess and would go to waste anyway.

There's a ethical dilemma when you start subsidizing a market that takes from the food supply though.

I Am Right
3/5/2011, 02:19 PM
Ethanol, leads to famine in africa, Ethanlol, burns up weed eater and chain saw motors, Ethanol, drives up the cost of food, however, we need to combat the Myth of global warming.

soonercruiser
3/5/2011, 02:30 PM
Here are some of the studies/story links.
I really didn't find ANY soild data supporting 10% Ethanol to be as efficient as 100% gasoline.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be exploring the use of alternative fuels.
But, if Ethanol is to be used, we must find cost effective organic sources for producing the Ethanol that are really benefitting the environment.
When the total environmental costs are totalled up - we are not doing the environment any favor by using 10-15% Ethanol gasoline.
From the FACTS available - It would seem to harm the environment more now - the way that we currently produce it.

Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Octane rating does not relate to the energy content of the fuel (see heating value). It is only a measure of the fuel's tendency to burn in a controlled manner, rather than exploding in an uncontrolled manner. Where the octane number is raised by blending in ethanol, energy content per volume is reduced.



What's Better, Ethanol or Gas?What's Better, Ethanol or Gas? | GreenCar.com
Establishing an E85 infrastructure presents a significantly larger challenge than getting engines to run well on E85. Since alcohol fuels like ethanol cannot be moved readily through existing petroleum distribution pipelines, it must be transported by barge, rail, or truck. Contrasting this, modifying an engine to run on E85 is not that difficult, requiring a fuel sensor for detecting the real-time ratio of ethanol to gasoline being supplied to the engine at any given point in time and optimizing engine and fuel settings for this mixture. Items like stainless steel fuel tanks, Teflon-lined fuel lines, and modified injectors must also be used to ensure compatibility with ethanol since it’s a much more corrosive fuel than gasoline.
The ethanol lobby carries substantial clout in Washington and so has been able to obtain subsidies that distort the true market price of this alternative fuel.

In use, most people will not be able to discern the difference between driving on E85 and regular gasoline. While ethanol does produce fewer BTUs (less energy) than gasoline, it has a significantly higher octane rating than unleaded gasoline (100-105 octane versus 85-90). Testing of Ford FFV engines show about a 5 percent increase in horsepower when operating on E85. However, offsetting this is that drivers will notice a 5 to 15 percent decrease in fuel economy, depending on ambient temperatures and driving conditions.
http://www.greencar.com/articles/s-better-ethanol-gas.php




Gasoline without ethanol - NAXJA Forums -::- North American XJ Association
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Normally, I believe that the ethanol mandate is all or nothing. Correct me if there are exceptions to this. 10% ethanol is a very common formulation around the country now.

The exception around here (MN) is that premium fuel (92 octane) designed for use in small engines does not legally have to contain ethanol or oxygenates. But you're not supposed to run it in automobiles and trucks and the extra money you'd fork out for the premium grade fuel would negate the savings in gas mileage.

On average, a 10% ethanol concentration results in a gas mileage drop of 3.6%
(source University of Iowa independent research)
Add the ethanol to winter driving which in many parts of the country means longer warm up times, more time in open loop, etc. and a drop of 10% in gas mileage is not at all unusual. http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1019910




http://ezinearticles.com/?Ethanol-Fu...rch&id=1357042
The University of Florida has been involved in biomass-to-energy research for about 20 years. New research at UF by Dr. Lonnie Ingram on variety of plant waste products proves that they are suitable for "cellulosic" ethanol production. The same kind of ethanol produced from this experiment too; but the source and process are different, allowing more efficient use of organic wastes for fuel production. It is proved that Ethanol blends are higher in octane than regular gas, about 100 compared to 87. Though we can see the difference in the reduction in fuel economy and less mileage per gallon, but the engine stays cooler, runs cleaner and produces less pollution.


Another good read..



The Problem With Ethanol
Ethanol Gets Poor Gas Mileage
Another downside: ethanol is more expensive than gasoline. Since alcohol produces less energy than petroleum gasoline when burned, gas mileage is reduced by 10 to 30 percent, according to Consumer Reports, October 2006.
http://www2.highlandstoday.com/content/2008/jun/22/problem-ethanol/


A couple of links about disadvantages of using Ethanol for those of you with marine engines. (that's "boats" for you jarheads!)
(Some extrapolation could be made for auto engines)
BoatUS Magazine - Time to Get Ready for Alberto, Beryl and Chris by Elaine Dickinson
http://www.boatus.com/news/e10_0706.htm
Ethanol in gasoline - not good for Marine use, how to buy non-Ethanol gasoline
http://www.greenhulk.net/forums/polaris-general-discussion-area/66682-ethanol-gasoline-not-good-marine-use-how-buy-non-ethanol-gasoline.html
E10 is not safe for marine engines
Article: E10 Gas is NOT Safe for Marine & Boat Engines
http://www.fuel-testers.com/e10_gas_not_safe_for_marine_engine.html

Sooner5030
3/5/2011, 02:44 PM
most small engines (lawnmowers, generators, etc.) do not like ethyl alcohol because the carbs and fuel lines/storage are made from materials that have a corrosive reaction with the fuel. Also, I think brigs and others stopped making cast iron blocks like twenty years ago. Alcohol and aluminum don't work well together.

MR2-Sooner86
3/5/2011, 02:56 PM
I don't like it because it reduces your engine's life. Also, when it comes to performance ethanol is a big no no.

royalfan5
3/5/2011, 04:08 PM
As an aside, the main by product of ethanol is a high quality livestock feed that is heavily used both domestically and sold into the export markets. China for one is a huge buyer of the distiller's grains. In addition, Soybeans will be moving more towards displacement of corn as a major export crop as it is far easier for countries to import beans than corn, so a cessation of corn ethanol would probably only have the net effect of replacing the distiller's grains in the export matrix. In addition, corn exports are running ahead of last year's pace even with a poor crop and higher ethanol utilization, and increased competition from feed wheat due to Australian crop failures.

Also, if you pulled the blender subsidies, blending ethanol would still be profitable at current pricing levels.

Veritas
3/5/2011, 04:12 PM
As an aside, the main by product of ethanol is a high quality livestock feed that is heavily used both domestically and sold into the export markets. China for one is a huge buyer of the distiller's grains. In addition, Soybeans will be moving more towards displacement of corn as a major export crop as it is far easier for countries to import beans than corn, so a cessation of corn ethanol would probably only have the net effect of replacing the distiller's grains in the export matrix. In addition, corn exports are running ahead of last year's pace even with a poor crop and higher ethanol utilization, and increased competition from feed wheat due to Australian crop failures.

Also, if you pulled the blender subsidies, blending ethanol would still be profitable at current pricing levels.
And that's the truth about ethanol. Of course, having an understanding of commodities markets is beyond most folks, myself included.

pphilfran
3/5/2011, 04:21 PM
A car must be optimized to use ethanol to it's potential...

You are correct about it running cooler and the drags/Indy can generate more horsepower...to get that horsepower they have higher compression ratios an they pack in the ethanol...

Most cars are not optimized for ethanol...

texaspokieokie
3/5/2011, 04:23 PM
don't drags/indy cars use methanol ??

pphilfran
3/5/2011, 04:30 PM
don't drags/indy cars use methanol ??

Indy went to ethanol in 2006...most alcohol dragsters use methanol but some can, and do, run ethanol...

pphilfran
3/5/2011, 04:57 PM
Oh, and good research Cruiser...thanks....

pphilfran
3/5/2011, 05:15 PM
Corn prices have nearly doubled since July...and I have yet to see a shortage of corn on the supermarket shelves...

Check out the chart at this link and tell me there is not trading volatility in corn futures...

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CN/M

Breadburner
3/5/2011, 05:21 PM
It's only feasable if switch grasses are used for production......

pphilfran
3/5/2011, 05:25 PM
It's only feasable if switch grasses are used for production......

It still has to go through an extra stage of distillation when compared to sugar cane...

It will be very difficult to overcome the shortcomings...

royalfan5
3/5/2011, 05:45 PM
Corn prices have nearly doubled since July...and I have yet to see a shortage of corn on the supermarket shelves...

Check out the chart at this link and tell me there is not trading volatility in corn futures...

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CN/M

Considering that your corn on the shelves is completely different than corn traded on the futures market, that means **** all. At current pace, we have pretty much the tightest stocks to use ratio in history with only 18 days of use expected on Sept. 1. If there is any sort of weather issue, corn is going to skyrocket, as we need record yields on record acres to get any sort of a surplus back in the grain market. This has more to do with a poor crop year worldwide, than ethanol. It should be noted that Brazil has started to import US corn ethanol because it is cheaper than domestic sugar ethanol right now, as well.

Sooner5030
3/5/2011, 06:17 PM
Considering that your corn on the shelves is completely different than corn traded on the futures market, that means **** all.

To an extent......but you also have to understand that the land used to grow either has scarcity.

royalfan5
3/5/2011, 06:30 PM
To an extent......but you also have to understand that the land used to grow either has scarcity.
Food grade corn is such a small slice of the overall acreage picture it barely factors in, and those producers are essentially functioning apart from regular row crop producers anyway due to infrastructure and investment costs.

sappstuf
3/5/2011, 06:31 PM
2010 was the 3rd largest corn crop in US history. Prices for wheat crept up. Rice dropped. Corn?? Skyrocketed.

If we keep putting 40% of our corn into cars we are.. Well.

We are corn-holing ourselves.

royalfan5
3/5/2011, 06:38 PM
2010 was the 3rd largest corn crop in US history. Prices for wheat crept up. Rice dropped. Corn?? Skyrocketed.

If we keep putting 40% of our corn into cars we are.. Well.

We are corn-holing ourselves.

Wheat had the biggest one month move since 1959 in July, and has added 1.25 to 2.00 since then. That's hardly creeping up. Corn prices didn't really start to move until expected yields dropped 12 bu an acre from August to October. Also, Russia having a 1000 year drought, dropping their production from 100MMT to 40MMT, has a lot more to do with things than ethanol does.

Veritas
3/5/2011, 08:23 PM
Srsly, rf5 is the only poster with a clue in this thread. He does this **** for a living. You've got a better chance arguing physics with Hawking.

REDREX
3/5/2011, 08:27 PM
Ethanol is a stupid Gov't boondoggle

pphilfran
3/5/2011, 08:28 PM
Considering that your corn on the shelves is completely different than corn traded on the futures market, that means **** all. At current pace, we have pretty much the tightest stocks to use ratio in history with only 18 days of use expected on Sept. 1. If there is any sort of weather issue, corn is going to skyrocket, as we need record yields on record acres to get any sort of a surplus back in the grain market. This has more to do with a poor crop year worldwide, than ethanol. It should be noted that Brazil has started to import US corn ethanol because it is cheaper than domestic sugar ethanol right now, as well.

I was taking at shot at 87 and his statement about high gas prices and no shortage...

pphilfran
3/5/2011, 08:30 PM
I should have said...

I haven't seen any shortage of ethanol even though corn prices have skyrocketed...

pphilfran
3/5/2011, 08:31 PM
Srsly, rf5 is the only poster with a clue in this thread. He does this **** for a living. You've got a better chance arguing physics with Hawking.

I am no expert but I know enough so I can tell if someone knows what they are talking about..and I agree with your statement on rf5....

Sooner5030
3/5/2011, 08:37 PM
that's funny....I've never seen an industry where experts didn't disagree on some topic. Maybe Veritas and rf5 have made a first?

Always meet an expert opinion with a certain level of skepticism. Or you could just follow the herd and purchase equities priced at 100 times earnings because all the experts are doing it. That worked out well for the mob.

Land is scarce...choosing to grow fuel rather than food will have some second and third order effects even if it's a different crop.

royalfan5
3/5/2011, 08:58 PM
that's funny....I've never seen an industry where experts didn't disagree on some topic. Maybe Veritas and rf5 have made a first?

Always meet an expert opinion with a certain level of skepticism. Or you could just follow the herd and purchase equities priced at 100 times earnings because all the experts are doing it. That worked out well for the mob.

Land is scarce...choosing to grow fuel rather than food will have some second and third order effects even if it's a different crop.

The thing that people aren't getting is that you aren't giving up the food aspect when you convert it into fuel. With or without ethanol, that ground is getting planted, likely to corn. That corn is going to be feed to cattle, hogs, and chicken either way, whether it gets run through a hammer mill at a feed producer, or at an ethanol plant first, and then the distiller's grains are feed to the livestock. Rapidly increasing meat consumption and production in Asia is going to be much bigger long term deal than ethanol in the United States. At this point, ethanol is a easy scapegoat for decades in worldwide investment in agriculture coming home to roost.

Sooner5030
3/5/2011, 09:04 PM
Not only does it have less caloric count than straight feed but it even has slightly less protein. Not # grain vs. # of by-product but # of grain fed straight to the cows vs. # of grain malted, fermented, distilled and divided between the cows and fuel. There is a loss of energy. The little bugs just didn't make energy outta thin air.

pphilfran
3/5/2011, 09:05 PM
The thing that people aren't getting is that you aren't giving up the food aspect when you convert it into fuel. With or without ethanol, that ground is getting planted, likely to corn. That corn is going to be feed to cattle, hogs, and chicken either way, whether it gets run through a hammer mill at a feed producer, or at an ethanol plant first, and then the distiller's grains are feed to the livestock. Rapidly increasing meat consumption and production in Asia is going to be much bigger long term deal than ethanol in the United States. At this point, ethanol is a easy scapegoat for decades in worldwide investment in agriculture coming home to roost.

Overall, it does add expense...

There is not a consensus on what it costs to produce a gallon of ethanol...it could be a one to one ratio...but that is an extreme conjecture...

Whatever the case it does drive up costs and the benefits are not really proven...

royalfan5
3/5/2011, 09:12 PM
Not only does it have less caloric count than straight feed but it even has slightly less protein. Not # grain vs. # of by-product but # of grain fed straight to the cows vs. # of grain malted, fermented, distilled and divided between the cows and fuel. There is a loss of energy. The little bugs just didn't make energy outta thin air.

However, the cattle gain better with a DDG ration and it's cheaper gain. That's why your cattle feeding is moving north again.

royalfan5
3/5/2011, 09:16 PM
Overall, it does add expense...

There is not a consensus on what it costs to produce a gallon of ethanol...it could be a one to one ratio...but that is an extreme conjecture...

Whatever the case it does drive up costs and the benefits are not really proven...

It's not extreme conjecture at all. I invite to you to read the research done by Dr. Ken Cassman and Dr. Adam Liska on the subject.

Sooner5030
3/5/2011, 09:16 PM
I'm still a fan of ethyl alcohol. I have a built in chip against the corn guys because they have more access to the legislatures and the regulatory compliance is not as large of a burden to them.

Plants are a very efficient, cheap form of solar panels. You just have to find a generator that can handle the alcohol.

pphilfran
3/5/2011, 09:23 PM
It's not extreme conjecture at all. I invite to you to read the research done by Dr. Ken Cassman and Dr. Adam Liska on the subject.

I understand...but there are other studies the other way around...too much info to digest...

A lot of items come into play...was land going to sit idle and receive fed subsidies...cost of fertilizer...cost to ship grain to processing plant...cost to truck from refinery..

With such differing views I question how much oil it really saves...

I think we want to have ethanol because Brazil uses vast amounts from sugar cane...

I believe we could use our money more wisely than subsidies on ethanol...

soonercruiser
3/5/2011, 11:20 PM
This a corn cob thread jack?
:rolleyes:

87sooner
3/6/2011, 08:37 AM
I was taking at shot at 87 and his statement about high gas prices and no shortage...

bite me phil;)

you're right....even corn gets pushed up/down artificially by those stinkin paper traders...

but you must understand....$7 corn = good.....$3.25 diesel = bad;)

pphilfran
3/6/2011, 08:47 AM
bite me phil;)

you're right....even corn gets pushed up/down artificially by those stinkin paper traders...

but you must understand....$7 corn = good.....$3.25 diesel = bad;)

Yep...it all depends on ones perspective...

S.PadreIsl.Sooner
3/6/2011, 09:02 AM
Ethanol in an outboard motor on a boat is a disaster waiting to happen. It can result in fires and other nonpleasant boating experiences.