Additional Charges for Manning [Archive] - SoonerFans.com Message Boards

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/2/2011, 11:13 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12628983

The new charges against Private First Class Bradley Manning include aiding the enemy, a capital offence, but prosecutors have said they will not seek the death penalty.

The intelligence analyst is being held at a military jail in Virginia.

He is suspected of leaking 620,000 diplomatic and military documents.

Pte Manning, who joined the US military in 2007, was initially charged in May with 12 counts of illegally downloading and sharing a secret video of a US military operation and secret military and diplomatic documents and cables.

The new charges accuse the soldier of using unauthorised software on government computers to download classified information and to make intelligence available to "the enemy".

Under the US Uniform Code of Military Justice, the offence is punishable by death.

But in a news release, the US Army said prosecutors would not seek the death penalty, although Pte Manning could face life in prison if tried and convicted.

Fresh details
Pte Manning's lawyer David Coombs said the soldier's defence team had been preparing for the possibility of additional charges over the past few weeks.

Pte Manning is being held in solitary confinement in a high-security military prison at Quantico marine base, Virginia.

Mr Coombs has said he expects a hearing to determine whether the military has enough evidence to try the soldier to be held in May or June.

The newly released list of charges offers fresh details on the records Pte Manning is accused of obtaining illegally.

Those include:

More than 380,000 records from a database of military records from the Iraq war
90,000 records from a database of Afghan war files
250,000 records from a US state department diplomatic database
75 classified US state department cables, including one titled "Reykjavik-13"
A video file named "12 JUL 07 CZ ENGAGEMENT ZONE 30 GC"
In recent months, Wikileaks has published troves of documents it titled the Iraq War Logs, the Afghan War Diary, and reams of secret US state department cables spanning five decades.

The site has also released a cable titled Reykjavik 13 that summarised US diplomats' discussions with Icelandic officials about that country's financial troubles, and a leaked video of a 2007 helicopter attack in Iraq that killed two Reuters news service employees.

Meanwhile a senior Pentagon official says there is no evidence that the leaks have hurt operations (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/11/28/104404/officials-may-be-overstating-the.html) and Manning continues to be tortured in the military brig. Daniel Ellsberg said it best,
"The best justification they can find for secrecy is that lives are at stake. Actually, lives are at stake as a result of the silences and lies which a lot of these leaks reveal".

SoonerStormchaser

3/2/2011, 11:19 PM

Good...too bad they won't schwack him though.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/2/2011, 11:22 PM

Good...too bad they won't schwack him though.
Because he's schwacked so many others

SoonerStormchaser

3/3/2011, 12:09 AM

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 09:05 AM

*yawn*
Your quoting the BBC as a credible source for ANYTHING relating to US military activities in the GWOT is about the same credence as RLIMC quoting anything from imadiehardrightwinghack.com on the going's on of the Obama administration.
Please feel free to discredit anything in the article then. BBC is actually quite a good source, they actually report news instead of trying to entertain like damn near every US "news" station.

TheHumanAlphabet

3/3/2011, 10:06 AM

He needs the firing squad, IMO. He has been a little **** his entire life from what I have read.

okie52

3/3/2011, 10:58 AM

Because he's schwacked so many others

So you agree with his actions.

OUMallen

3/3/2011, 11:04 AM

*yawn*
Your quoting the BBC as a credible source for ANYTHING relating to US military activities in the GWOT is about the same credence as RLIMC quoting anything from imadiehardrightwinghack.com on the going's on of the Obama administration.

The BBC is one of the finest journalism sources in the world. It's the most unbiased I can find.

MR2-Sooner86

3/3/2011, 11:15 AM

I'll just state again what I put when this first came out.

Bradley Manning is not a journalist and he is not an Australian national. He is an American Soldier. As such, taking those documents and leaking them to the world is treason. Period. Did he do the right thing? As far as truth and morality go, possibly yes but that can be debated as well. As far as serving his country? No. He took an oath and he violated it, knowing that prison, or death, was the outcome. He has done the deed and now he has to accept the consequences even if it means spending the rest of his life in prison or looking down a barrel in front of a firing squad.

OutlandTrophy

3/3/2011, 11:48 AM

just keep the kid away from military secrets in the future, there's no need to keep him in jail....

sappstuf

3/3/2011, 11:53 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12628983

Meanwhile a senior Pentagon official says there is no evidence that the leaks have hurt operations (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/11/28/104404/officials-may-be-overstating-the.html) and Manning continues to be tortured in the military brig. Daniel Ellsberg said it best,
"The best justification they can find for secrecy is that lives are at stake. Actually, lives are at stake as a result of the silences and lies which a lot of these leaks reveal".

:rolleyes:

okie52

3/3/2011, 11:56 AM

:rolleyes:

No TV except during prime time.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 11:59 AM

:rolleyes:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning
:rolleyes: If those conditions aren't torture, I don't know what is.

So you agree with his actions.
I do. Do I think he deserves jail time? Probably, maybe 10-15 years, but life or death? He hasn't done enough to deserve that.

MR2-Sooner86

3/3/2011, 12:13 PM

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning
:rolleyes:

Get the f*ck out of my face with that bullsh*t. He's being treated VERY nicely compared to what the Vietnamese, Japanese, and (sometimes) Germans did to our POWs.

That is NOT torture. He's in a room and has to look at a wall for 23 hours a day. Boo-f*cking-hoo he's lucky that's all he has to deal with.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 12:14 PM

Get the f*ck out of my face with that bullsh*t. He's being treated VERY nicely compared to what the Vietnamese, Japanese, and (sometimes) Germans did to our POWs.

That is NOT torture. He's in a room and has to look at a wall for 23 hours a day. Boo-f*cking-hoo he's lucky that's all he has to deal with.

"A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam . . . reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered."
You call a military study bull****? Besides, saying "well at least we are better than the Nazis!" is no defense...

okie52

3/3/2011, 12:20 PM

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 12:23 PM

So you agree with his actions but still think he deserves jail time?
Well, he did take an oath and violated it, so yes. But people calling for his head, or hoping he never sees the light of day again...thats ridiculous.

MR2-Sooner86

3/3/2011, 12:27 PM

"A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam . . . reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered."
You call a military study bull****? Besides, saying "well at least we are better than the Nazis!" is no defense...

I'm not calling the study bullsh*t I'm saying your claim that we're "torturing" him is bullsh*t.

If you're saying the United States is doing what the North Vietnamese, Japanese, or Germans did to our POWs then you clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Well, he did take an oath and violated it, so yes. But people calling for his head, or hoping he never sees the light of day again...thats ridiculous.

No it's no ridiculous. The punishment of treason can be death so it's not something you take lightly.

sappstuf

3/3/2011, 12:29 PM

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning
:rolleyes: If those conditions aren't torture, I don't know what is.

I do. Do I think he deserves jail time? Probably, maybe 10-15 years, but life or death? He hasn't done enough to deserve that.

Let's see....

He watches TV up to 3 hours a day during the week and 6 hours on weekends..

Reads any books or magazines that he requests and are cleared for him..

Has visitors on weekends and holidays up to 3 hours a day...

Sleeps for 9 hours a night...

He is given 2 hours a day to write letters to friends, family or lawyer..

Takes 20 to 30 minute showers daily..

Gosh sounds like he is totally isolated and mistreated.. :rolleyes:

If you can't handle doing time because you do something that gets you charged with being a traitor and aiding the enemy during a war, then maybe you shouldn't do the crime.

And by the way, trying to compare PVT Manning's imprisonment to aviators in Vietnam is really beyond the pale.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 12:35 PM

I'm not calling the study bullsh*t I'm saying your claim that we're "torturing" him is bullsh*t.

If you're saying the United States is doing what the North Vietnamese, Japanese, or Germans did to our POWs then you clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

No it's no ridiculous. The punishment of treason can be death so it's not something you take lightly.
But its not, as you can see the study equated physical torture with extended social restriction.

I'm not saying we are doing the same thing, obviously they did far worse things, but just because they did things that were far worse doesn't mean we can't do horrible things as well.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 12:36 PM

If you can't handle doing time because you do something that gets you charged with being a traitor and aiding the enemy during a war, then maybe you shouldn't do the crime.

He hasn't aided the enemy, and we aren't in a legally declared war.

okie52

3/3/2011, 12:39 PM

Well, he did take an oath and violated it, so yes. But people calling for his head, or hoping he never sees the light of day again...thats ridiculous.

Well, he committed an act of treason. I am not sure he had the capacity to judge the sensitivity of the info he released. He may not have cared.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 12:42 PM

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/06/wikileaks-chat/
Interesting read

sappstuf

3/3/2011, 12:49 PM

He hasn't aided the enemy, and we aren't in a legally declared war.

Obviously the United States Government feels differently since he is charged with that.

Only 5 wars have ever been declared in our history. The Civil War was not one of them, neither was the Vietnam or Korean War.

Do you honestly believe that the Civil, Vietnam, Korean, and now the War on Terror are not actual wars??

If my neck was on the line, I think I would go in a different direction for my defense.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 12:53 PM

Do you honestly believe that the Civil, Vietnam, Korean, and now the War on Terror are not actual wars??

If my neck was on the line, I think I would go in a different direction for my defense.
I believe that Congress is supposed to declare war for a reason, and they need to grow a set of balls and take their responsibility back before more people die.

sappstuf

3/3/2011, 12:55 PM

Well, he committed an act of treason. I am not sure he had the capacity to judge the sensitivity of the info he released. He may not have cared.

Just to clear the air, this is the actual UCMJ charge of aiding the enemy.

ART. 104. AIDING THE ENEMY
Any person who--
(1) aids, or attempts to aid, the enemy with arms, ammunition, supplies, money, or other things; or
(2) without proper authority, knowingly harbors or [protects or gives intelligence to or communicates or corresponds with or holds any intercourse with the enemy, either directly or indirectly;
shall suffer death or such other punishment as a court-martial or military commission may direct.

I think it is pretty clear that he acted without proper authority and communicated indirectly through wikileaks to everyone in the world that cared to look it up including people we are fighting against.

TheHumanAlphabet

3/3/2011, 01:11 PM

just keep the kid away from military secrets in the future, there's no need to keep him in jail....

I SO Disagree with this statement.

TheHumanAlphabet

3/3/2011, 01:14 PM

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 01:16 PM

You, IMO are wrong here. He has done enough wrong to demand the death penalty. Too bad we can't seem to bring that back into the UCMJ. If this had been WWII, he would be dead by now...
Oh yes, the nostaligia for simpler times.

"If anyone acted outta line, we just killed em :texan: "

TheHumanAlphabet

3/3/2011, 01:21 PM

SCS, I am surprised at your views. Most people I know from SC are more right than many Oklahomans. SCers go to the Citadel and many are proud of a military heritage. You must have a different background. We may disagree on this notion in this thread, but I am glad you have your opinion.

okie52

3/3/2011, 01:58 PM

Just to clear the air, this is the actual UCMJ charge of aiding the enemy.

I think it is pretty clear that he acted without proper authority and communicated indirectly through wikileaks to everyone in the world that cared to look it up including people we are fighting against.

You are right Sapp. I can't imagine he can mount a very good defense against those charges.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 02:28 PM

Sooner5030

3/3/2011, 02:43 PM

He was provided the option to say "no....I will not sign a non-disclosure statement because I believe I have the right to disclose secret data if it suits my political stance" and then he could have been provided another job that didn't involve handling classified data.

To take an oath (of free will) and to further agree to safeguard (of free will) any info that is determined to be protected and then to intentionally copy and distribute to foreign entities should be punished to the fullest extent.

It's not like he was walking down the road and accidentally fell into a "I handle classified data" hole.

C&CDean

3/3/2011, 03:07 PM

StoopTroup

3/3/2011, 03:58 PM

Amen.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 04:05 PM

What cracks me up about the SC boy's silliness in this whole thing is he thinks the guy did something wrong, but since nobody has been hurt by it - YET - then it's peachy. Using your rationale, say we catch some arab sumbitch with a load of sarin gas on his way kill all of Charleston. Well we caught him, but nobody got hurt, so 10-15 years oughta be plenty.

Just an opinion, but you've got a very weird/****ed up value/evaluation system. Very ****ed up. And stop trying to give yourself credit for "being able to question something." You're a parrot that parrots what all the other extreme left-wing parrots parrot. Your views aren't original. They're simply at the whack-job extreme just like the right-extreme posters we have here. You're just as bad as them.
Sarin gas is the same thing as reports on friendly fire and civilian casualties, right. Not as ****ed up as yours, you've already demonstrated that you view killing as more respectable than aid work.

“The land of the free and the home of the brave”. Except documents about subversive and underhanded things your government is doing in the name of freedom. Freedom would be letting the public know things, not punishing those who disclose information.

C&CDean

3/3/2011, 04:07 PM

Whatever Che. Whatever.

StoopTroup

3/3/2011, 04:09 PM

Amen.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/3/2011, 04:10 PM

Whatever Che. Whatever.
Swiiiing and a miss. Why do you insist on labeling me as a commie?

StoopTroup

3/3/2011, 04:11 PM

Must be an Oregon Ref.

C&CDean

3/3/2011, 04:15 PM

Swiiiing and a miss. Why do you insist on labeling me as a commie?

Oh I know you ain't a commie. You just try to act like one. You're not old enough or anywhere near mature enough to even know what the **** you say/do yet. Right now you're just a harmless fuzznut trying to figure out the world without mom's tit in your mouth. However, you keep on hanging with the pack you do then someday, you just might become dangerous.

SicEmBaylor

3/3/2011, 04:21 PM

I can't say that he shouldn't be severely punished since he was in the military and clearly broke the law. However, I can't say that I'm mad or sorry about that information being made public. I think a lot of it definitely needed to be made public.

NormanPride

3/3/2011, 04:23 PM

StoopTroup

3/3/2011, 04:24 PM

Amen.

SicEmBaylor

3/3/2011, 04:29 PM

WTF, SC? The guy disclosed military secrets. That's a textbook description of treason. They kill people for that! And that link to his conditions was from some sort of crazy left wing blog. Find something from an unbiased or official source and I'll believe it more.

Well, I believe the Constitutional definition of treason is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. He didn't leak these secrets to any enemy of ours or any nation that we're at war with. He just publicly leaked the information which just doesn't rise to the level of execution.

And actually we rarely execute people for this kind of thing. Jane Fonda committed text book treason by giving both aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States and even posing with a N. Vietnamese AA gun.

What this guy did does not even approach the level of treason of Jane Fonda.

C&CDean

3/3/2011, 04:33 PM

Oh. That makes him OK then. Glad we settled that.

NormanPride

3/3/2011, 04:34 PM

Well, I believe the Constitutional definition of treason is giving aid and comfort to the enemy. He didn't leak these secrets to any enemy of ours or any nation that we're at war with. He just publicly leaked the information which just doesn't rise to the level of execution.

And actually we rarely execute people for this kind of thing. Jane Fonda committed text book treason by giving both aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States and even firing on Americans during war time using an enemy's AA gun.

What this guy did does not even approach the level of treason of Jane Fonda.

I think someone posted the actual charge earlier, and it fit pretty well.

And Jane Fonda wasn't a member of the military.

StoopTroup

3/3/2011, 04:35 PM

Life in Prison is fine IMO. I'm for 10-15 years for folks who support his action.

StoopTroup

3/3/2011, 04:35 PM

I think someone posted the actual charge earlier, and it fit pretty well.

And Jane Fonda wasn't a member of the military.

Neither were the Rosenberg's.

NormanPride

3/3/2011, 04:37 PM

Amen.

SicEmBaylor

3/3/2011, 04:38 PM

And Jane Fonda wasn't a member of the military.

Well, that shouldn't matter. Treason is treason regardless. But yeah, I'm not saying this guy shouldn't be severely punished but I don't think it rises to execution levels.

The Profit

3/3/2011, 05:08 PM

Neither were the Rosenberg's.

Good point. And the Rosenberg's were Soviet spies, while this Manning punk just seems to have been releasing every bit of information he could get his hands on at the time.

MR2-Sooner86

3/3/2011, 06:14 PM

Sarin gas is the same thing as reports on friendly fire and civilian casualties, right. Not as ****ed up as yours, you've already demonstrated that you view killing as more respectable than aid work.

If you're talking about the helicopter video, maybe you should watch it first before spewing other people's talking points.

“The land of the free and the home of the brave”. Except documents about subversive and underhanded things your government is doing in the name of freedom. Freedom would be letting the public know things, not punishing those who disclose information.

Is he a reporter? No, he's an American soldier. You gain certain freedoms but you give up some as soon as you take that oath and give your life to the service for however many years. Don't like it? Don't f*cking sign up then.

Did he even release what he wanted? No. He just got his hands on massive amounts of data which he didn't even go through all of it and just threw it out there and didn't think. If he came across something he saw as wrong and leaked that and only that, there could be an argument. He didn't do that.

He didn't leak these secrets to any enemy of ours or any nation that we're at war with.

But you can argue that since it's now public knowledge our enemies were able to learn about it.

And Jane Fonda wasn't a member of the military.

Still doesn't change the fact she should have faced a firing squad or her neck should have snapped at the end of a rope. I hate how that bitch was allowed to live.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/6/2011, 03:23 AM

If you're talking about the helicopter video, maybe you should watch it first before spewing other people's talking points.

No, I totally agree on the helicopter video. I can understand what happened there and I don't think anyone should be charged, but I believe there were other reports and possibly another video.

Did he even release what he wanted? No. He just got his hands on massive amounts of data which he didn't even go through all of it and just threw it out there and didn't think. If he came across something he saw as wrong and leaked that and only that, there could be an argument. He didn't do that.

Still doesn't change the fact she should have faced a firing squad or her neck should have snapped at the end of a rope. I hate how that bitch was allowed to live.
Well he gave it to wikileaks, who tried to then collaborate with the US gov't to remove names but they were ignored.

Thats harsh, again considering HE DIDN'T CAUSE ANYONE TO DIE

diverdog

3/6/2011, 06:36 AM

WTF, SC? The guy disclosed military secrets. That's a textbook description of treason. They kill people for that! And that link to his conditions was from some sort of crazy left wing blog. Find something from an unbiased or official source and I'll believe it more.

Not anymore and it is discouraging. When was the last time we ever sentenced someone to death for treason? I can't remember. One of the things that is happening now is that they let these guys plea bargain in return for information. I say fine but once you are done and get life in prison then that life should be so bad you would wish you were dead.

Okla-homey

3/6/2011, 08:59 AM

But its not, as you can see the study equated physical torture with extended social restriction.

I'm not saying we are doing the same thing, obviously they did far worse things, but just because they did things that were far worse doesn't mean we can't do horrible things as well.

Our Constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment. If there were even a crumb of merit to your argument solitary confinement is a form of torture, solitary would not be allowed for any prisoner anywhere in the United States. Over the years, lawsuits have been filed making the claim solitary=torture, contrary to the VIII Amendment's bar of cruel and unusual punishment. No federal court has ever agreed that solitary=torture.

AlbqSooner

3/6/2011, 09:01 AM

I submit that to put Manning in general population in a Marine brig would be a death sentence

StoopTroup

3/6/2011, 11:19 AM

I think there was some things Manning agreed to when he joined the Army...

Anyone know what all that might have been? :pop:

Wishboned

3/6/2011, 11:49 AM

I think there was some things Manning agreed to when he joined the Army...

Anyone know what all that might have been? :pop:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

StoopTroup

3/6/2011, 11:56 AM

There it is.

I'm pretty sure he messed that up and in doing so during a time such as we are in right now.....he really decided to put himself in the History Books because of his own principles. He knew what the outcome would be and now is crying for sympathy. He should suck it up IMO.

Like ALBQ says....he's lucky to be alive more than likely.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/6/2011, 12:23 PM

Our Constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment. If there were even a crumb of merit to your argument solitary confinement is a form of torture, solitary would not be allowed for any prisoner anywhere in the United States. Over the years, lawsuits have been filed making the claim solitary=torture, contrary to the VIII Amendment's bar of cruel and unusual punishment. No federal court has ever agreed that solitary=torture.
Right, because our constitution is so readily followed by the federal government. Torture being banned in the constitution sure didn't stop it from happening at Guantanamo either. Humans are social creatures, completely isolating them from any social interaction whatsoever is torture, thats been backed up by even the US military.

StoopTroup

3/6/2011, 12:32 PM

I bet he'd hang himself if they put SCS in his cell to make sure his Constitutional Rights weren't being violated.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/6/2011, 01:12 PM

I bet he'd hang himself if they put SCS in his cell to make sure his Constitutional Rights weren't being violated.
Now theres an idea!

47straight

3/9/2011, 12:39 AM

The BBC is one of the finest journalism sources in the world. It's the most unbiased I can find.

Snicker.

47straight

3/9/2011, 12:45 AM

Right, because our constitution is so readily followed by the federal government. Torture being banned in the constitution sure didn't stop it from happening at Guantanamo either. Humans are social creatures, completely isolating them from any social interaction whatsoever is torture, thats been backed up by even the US military.

I'm so sorry that he isn't allowed full contact to the left-wing press to leak even more information and that it's hurting your little feelers that the enemy doesn't know our full troop positions, placements, and tactical strategies and other nasty secrets that shouldn't be so unconstitutionally withheld.
:rolleyes:

Blue

3/9/2011, 12:55 AM

Life in Prison is fine IMO. I'm for 10-15 years for folks who support his action.

And the Death Penalty for all the corrupt politicians, presidents, and CEO's who do way more damage to this country everyday than any of the folks you mentioned.

Okla-homey

3/9/2011, 07:43 AM

Right, because our constitution is so readily followed by the federal government. Torture being banned in the constitution sure didn't stop it from happening at Guantanamo either. Humans are social creatures, completely isolating them from any social interaction whatsoever is torture, thats been backed up by even the US military.

Balderdash. Humans are sexual creatures too. Completely isolating them from the opportunity to have sex is torture, right? What about pie? Humans like pie. Is denying humans pie torture?

And if Gitmo is a torture camp, why hasn't the President closed it? Your boy talks a good game, but his actions belie the truth about Gitmo.

Wishboned

3/9/2011, 09:38 AM

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:19 AM

Balderdash. Humans are sexual creatures too. Completely isolating them from the opportunity to have sex is torture, right? What about pie? Humans like pie. Is denying humans pie torture?

And if Gitmo is a torture camp, why hasn't the President closed it? Your boy talks a good game, but his actions belie the truth about Gitmo.
Now you're just being ridiculous, the US Military itself has said that airmen captured in Vietnam who were subjected to prolonged social isolated suffer as much or more than those physically abused. Social isolation is torture, and we shouldn't do it. He's not my boy, I'm sorry that practically everyone on this board doesn't know the difference between classic liberal and modern liberal.

NormanPride

3/9/2011, 12:07 PM

People who have been marooned don't necessarily suffer any psychological issues. The idea that keeping someone by themselves is torture is asinine.

HBick

3/9/2011, 12:09 PM

I hope he rots in prison. I'm so tired of hearing about Wikileaks. I don't care. The only thing worth mentioning about the entire deal, is that the rest of the world was surprised that our "secret" cables were basically the same as our public stance.

Mongo

3/9/2011, 02:04 PM

Wait...isnt SCS going into the Marines soon?

C&CDean

3/9/2011, 04:27 PM

Wait...isnt SCS going into the Marines soon?

Heh.

I wish the boy would though. Teach him a little something about what it's all about. Instead he's going to further his brainwashing/indoctrination with the PC. Well maybe. If he doesn't chicken out.

OutlandTrophy

3/9/2011, 07:36 PM

Wait...isnt SCS going into the Marines soon?

If I was a Marine I'd wish that your crotch was an enemy beach and I'd wase ashore every chance I got.

Okla-homey

3/9/2011, 08:05 PM

Now you're just being ridiculous, the US Military itself has said that airmen captured in Vietnam who were subjected to prolonged social isolated suffer as much or more than those physically abused. Social isolation is torture, and we shouldn't do it. He's not my boy, I'm sorry that practically everyone on this board doesn't know the difference between classic liberal and modern liberal.

Now you're being silly. What Charlie did to downed US airman is nothing remotely like what this little twit is currently enduring. Have you ever met a VN POW?

And have you considered for even a second, how long he might last in gen. pop. in a USMC brig? There are guys in there who would stick a shiv in him because he's a whiney, treasonous and pathetic creature who is wasting air the rest of us could otherwise breathe. And that's after he got out of the sick bay after accidentally falling and breaking his knees.

sappstuf

3/9/2011, 08:35 PM

TitoMorelli

3/9/2011, 08:42 PM

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 09:46 PM

People who have been marooned don't necessarily suffer any psychological issues. The idea that keeping someone by themselves is torture is asinine.
"A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam, many of whom were treated even worse than McCain, reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered."

Heh.

I wish the boy would though. Teach him a little something about what it's all about. Instead he's going to further his brainwashing/indoctrination with the PC. Well maybe. If he doesn't chicken out.
"What its all about" Isn't the damn army, I know that much. C&C Dean let me ask you something, are you a veteran yourself?

Until you can prove our boys in Vietnam were able to watch up to 6 hours of TV a day and could visit their families up to 3 hours a day, each day, on weekends and holidays STOP BRINGING VIETNAM UP!!
"A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam, many of whom were treated even worse than McCain, reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered."

The biggest difference is that 99% of modern liberals flatter themselves to think that they are actually classic liberals.
Err...no they don't, our economic and social tenets are completely different from modern liberals.

MR2-Sooner86

3/9/2011, 09:58 PM

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 10:05 PM

SouthCarolinaSooner in terms of idiotic leftist ideology, you've got to be one the stupidest sons of a bitches I've come across and I've taken several liberal arts classes with hardline Obama supporters.

Seriously, just shut the hell up and let the grownups talk. Go run along and play with your toys until you can provide facts and back up your statements instead of shooting off your mouth removing any doubt there are no neurons firing between your ears.

Until you can show proof our military facilities are like the ones in North Vietnam and our soldiers treat prisoners exactly like our POWs were treated, you're nothing more than an anti-military c*ck-gobbler hiding behind this issue to take swipes at our armed forces.

Well I'm not an Obama supporter at all or left in many areas so I'm not sure where that stuff is from.

I'm looking for the study named in the article, but until I find it I can concede that solitary confinement isn't torture. I'm not taking swipes at our armed forces, I'm taking swipes at war in general. Believe it or not, I do have respect for those individuals who choose to serve in this way. I've got several friends serving in the armed forces. What I will (or what I mean) take swipes at:

1. Wars fought unconstitutionally
2. Lies that were created to go to war
3. Wars that have deviated from their objective

All three are currently occurring. I've got no problem with people who want to serve or do serve, I have a serious problem with the three things listed above.

MR2-Sooner86

3/9/2011, 10:22 PM

You're changing the subject. Want to debate those, create another thread. This is about Manning and you claiming he's being "tortured."

I'll spell it out for you.

Manning is NOT IN VIET-F*CKING-NAM.
Manning is NOT being treated in any way, shape, or form like our POWs were treated in, again, VIET-F*CKING-NAM.
Manning BROKE military protocol.
Manning is NOT a reporter.
Manning IS a UNITED STATES SOLDIER.
Manning LEAKED thousands of MILITARY documents.
Manning is NOT A MARTYR for "free speech" or the Constitution.
Manning COMMITTED TREASON.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

He didn't follow protocol. He didn't report anything he saw as wrong. He didn't bring attention to anything in the chain of command. He figured he could be a loose cannon and do whatever he wanted and get away with it. He didn't. When he enlisted he gave up allot of basic freedoms we enjoy. Case closed.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 10:25 PM

You're changing the subject. Want to debate those, create another thread. This is about Manning and you claiming he's being "tortured."

I'll spell it out for you.

Manning is NOT IN VIET-F*CKING-NAM.
Manning is NOT being treated in any way, shape, or form like our POWs were treated in, again, VIET-F*CKING-NAM.
Manning BROKE military protocol.
Manning is NOT a reporter.
Manning IS a UNITED STATES SOLDIER.
Manning LEAKED thousands of MILITARY documents.
Manning is NOT A MARTYR for "free speech" or the Constitution.
Manning COMMITTED TREASON.

He didn't follow protocol. He didn't report anything he saw as wrong. He didn't bring attention to anything in the chain of command. He figured he could be a loose cannon and do whatever he wanted and get away with it. He didn't. When he enlisted he gave up allot of basic freedoms we enjoy. Case closed.
Just responding to your "grown up" insults and jabs at me.

I don't think he's a martyr, I don't think he should get off scot free either.

Do I think he deserves jail time? Probably, maybe 10-15 years, but life or death? He hasn't done enough to deserve that.

So you agree with his actions but still think he deserves jail time?

Well, he did take an oath and violated it, so yes. But people calling for his head, or hoping he never sees the light of day again...thats ridiculous.

StoopTroup

3/9/2011, 10:44 PM

Just responding to your "grown up" insults and jabs at me.

I don't think he's a martyr, I don't think he should get off scot free either.

Well....it looks like you are finally starting to at least see that no matter what you think....that lil bastard is screwed blued and will be tattooed with a sentence that is going to change his life forever and he'll be considered a the lowest form of life we've ever had in this Country. If there is ever a day he gets the opportunity to have his freedom again....I hope you are in a position to hire him. He'd make your Company and great IT Security Manager.

:rolleyes:

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 10:46 PM

"A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam, many of whom were treated even worse than McCain, reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered."

Link to the actual study please?

"What its all about" Isn't the damn army, I know that much. C&C Dean let me ask you something, are you a veteran yourself?
If you have to ask, then you havent been payin tention!

"A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam, many of whom were treated even worse than McCain, reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered."

Link to actual study please?

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 10:48 PM

Well I'm not an Obama supporter at all or left in many areas so I'm not sure where that stuff is from.

I'm looking for the study named in the article, but until I find it I can concede that solitary confinement isn't torture. I'm not taking swipes at our armed forces, I'm taking swipes at war in general. Believe it or not, I do have respect for those individuals who choose to serve in this way. I've got several friends serving in the armed forces. What I will (or what I mean) take swipes at:

1. Wars fought unconstitutionally
2. Lies that were created to go to war
3. Wars that have deviated from their objective

All three are currently occurring. I've got no problem with people who want to serve or do serve, I have a serious problem with the three things listed above.

You do know we cannot have peace without war, right?

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 10:49 PM

Link to the actual study please?

If you have to ask, then you havent been payin tention!

Link to actual study please?

I'm looking for the study named in the article, but until I find it I can concede that solitary confinement isn't torture.

And I thought he was, but I didn't want to make any mistake...sheesh. Since you seem to know plenty about Dean, did he fight in Vietnam or Gulf I or ___ ?

AlbqSooner

3/9/2011, 10:50 PM

Apparently Manning thought this was worth standing up for on principle, without realizing the consequences of his actions. Now that he is suffering the consequences of his actions, he has decided to back away from his principles. So many criminal types are all braggadoccio and swagger until they hear the sound made by a cell door slamming and see Bubba sitting on the bottom bunk looking at them. THEN, they say that they really didn't mean it.

SC, you keep citing that U.S. military study that you can't seem to locate regarding isolation as torture. I call bevo excrement.

Many prisoners in facilities across the United States are put into isolation. The Courts do not believe this to be cruel and unusual punishment, which is constitutionally forbidden. If is not not cruel or unusual, I fail to understand why you insist on calling it torture. Torture is both cruel punishment and unusual punishment. Get over yourself. You are not wiser or more contemplative than the collective wisdom of United States Court of Appeals judges.

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 10:51 PM

And I thought he was, but I didn't want to make any mistake...sheesh. Since you seem to know plenty about Dean, did he fight in Vietnam or Gulf I or ___ ?

Where did I say I know plenty of stuff about dean? But people have asked him plenty of times...and his answer has been yes everytime...

Now pay tention.

I think he fought in the war of 1812...but may have been the Revolutionary war..cant remember.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 10:52 PM

You do know we cannot have peace without war, right?
Well literally of course, but how many recent wars have resulted in successful peaceful outcomes?

SicEmBaylor

3/9/2011, 10:53 PM

I don't know what Manning's motivations were for leaking this information, but if I had to guess he thought the information should be made available to the American public. I don't think his intention was to leak the information to our enemies thus giving them "aid" and "comfort." What he did was an illegal act to be sure, but I'm not sure it rises to the level of treason.

He is and should pay a price for violating his oath and the law, but wanting to see the guy killed via either the death penalty or a prison beating is just insane. More to the point, the military authorities have a legal and moral obligation to ensure his safety while he's incarcerated. The same goes for the lowest bottom dwelling pond scum serial-pedophile murderers/rapists...it may bring us comfort to imagine them being thrown in with the general population and shanked but even their guards have a responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen and to keep them safe. Irregardless (to VK's chagrin, I'm going to keep using it) of how we personally feel toward these people.

The truth is that we've had plenty of members of our own government commit far worse treasonable acts than what Manning did and many of them are celebrated for it.

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 10:55 PM

Well literally of course, but how many recent wars have resulted in successful peaceful outcomes?

Well, thankfully we don't all speak German or Japanese.

Thankfully, since 9/11 we haven't seen a terrorist attack on American Soil.

So maybe those wars are working after all!

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 10:57 PM

SC, you keep citing that U.S. military study that you can't seem to locate regarding isolation as torture. I call bevo excrement.

Many prisoners in facilities across the United States are put into isolation. The Courts do not believe this to be cruel and unusual punishment, which is constitutionally forbidden. If is not not cruel or unusual, I fail to understand why you insist on calling it torture. Torture is both cruel punishment and unusual punishment. Get over yourself. You are not wiser or more contemplative than the collective wisdom of United States Court of Appeals judges.
What I've come up with so far:

http://www.son.washington.edu/faculty/fac-page-files/Lovell-SupermaxRecidivism-4-19-04.pdf

Basically the above study shows that solitary confinement has made prisoners more violent at supermax prisons, but nothing about torture. Just that it hasn't been particularly effective.

Just because I can't find this study on the internet doesn't mean it doesn't exist either, but you have every reason to be skeptical.

"It's an awful thing, solitary, It crushes your spirit and weakens your resistance more effectively than any other form of mistreatment."
-John McCain

SicEmBaylor

3/9/2011, 10:58 PM

Well, thankfully we don't all speak German or Japanese.

Thankfully, since 9/11 we haven't seen a terrorist attack on American Soil.

So maybe those wars are working after all!

Well....

WWII didn't result in peace for us or anyone else in the world. Just ask the Poles, Czechs, and everyone else that had to live under the tyranny of the Soviet Union as a result of the deals we made at the end of that war. Not to mention the fact that WWII resulted in the collapse of European colonialism in Asia that resulted in numerous civil wars including one in a little **** hole called Vietnam.

Wars don't bring peace -- they just set the stage for the next one.

AlbqSooner

3/9/2011, 10:59 PM

More to the point, the military authorities have a legal and moral obligation to ensure his safety while he's incarcerated. The same goes for the lowest bottom dwelling pond scum serial-pedophile murderers/rapists...it may bring us comfort to imagine them being thrown in with the general population and shanked but even their guards have a responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen and to keep them safe. Irregardless (to VK's chagrin, I'm going to keep using it) of how we personally feel toward these people.

And THAT, my friend, is precisely why he is being "TORTURED" by being kept in isolation.

SicEmBaylor

3/9/2011, 11:01 PM

And THAT, my friend, is precisely why he is being "TORTURED" by being kept in isolation.

There's being kept in isolation and then there's being kept in isolation and tortured. If he's being kept in isolation for his personal protection then that's one thing, but if he's being kept in isolation and tortured or otherwise abused then that's something else entirely.

I don't claim to know which is the case because I don't have any clue on Earth how he's being treated.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:02 PM

Well, thankfully we don't all speak German or Japanese.

Thankfully, since 9/11 we haven't seen a terrorist attack on American Soil.

So maybe those wars are working after all!
By recent, I mean after World War II, I'm not going to question whether World War II was necessary or not.

Because we had so many attacks before and all...terrorists want to kill Americans because we intervene in their national affairs, prop up tyrants and violate what they consider sacred. The best way to prevent terrorism is to stop participating in it.

AlbqSooner

3/9/2011, 11:02 PM

Basically the above study shows that solitary confinement has made prisoners more violent at supermax prisons, but nothing about torture. Just that it hasn't been particularly effective.

I suggest that in Manning's case it has been effective at sparing him from death at the hands of other inmates.

SicEmBaylor

3/9/2011, 11:03 PM

You know...I think a better term to use to describe Manning's treatment in isolation would be "tormented" rather than "tortured." I do agree that the term "tortured" is pretty heavy and it's somewhat wrong to call what may be happening to Manning as torture.

I definitely think he may be "tormented" by his guards which is still wrong, over the line, unethical, and immoral.

Mongo

3/9/2011, 11:05 PM

Basically the above study shows that solitary confinement has made prisoners more violent at supermax prisons, but nothing about torture. Just that it hasn't been particularly effective.

All the more reason to keep them apart from gen pop.

AlbqSooner

3/9/2011, 11:05 PM

There's being kept in isolation and then there's being kept in isolation and tortured.

Any chance you can get this concept through to SC?:rolleyes:

okie52

3/9/2011, 11:06 PM

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:06 PM

What I've come up with so far:

http://www.son.washington.edu/faculty/fac-page-files/Lovell-SupermaxRecidivism-4-19-04.pdf

Basically the above study shows that solitary confinement has made prisoners more violent at supermax prisons, but nothing about torture. Just that it hasn't been particularly effective.

Just because I can't find this study on the internet doesn't mean it doesn't exist either, but you have every reason to be skeptical.

"It's an awful thing, solitary, It crushes your spirit and weakens your resistance more effectively than any other form of mistreatment."
-John McCain

LMFAO...and yet the one in solitude are the ones that already create problems with others inside the prison.

No real surprise there.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:06 PM

I definitely think he may be "tormented" by his guards which is still wrong, over the line, unethical, and immoral.
Call it torturing, tormenting or tea, I agree with the above.

Curly Bill

3/9/2011, 11:06 PM

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:08 PM

You're truly a fruit loop and why any other posters continue to waste their breath arguing with you, I don't quite understand.
You're right, 9/11 and the ensuing wars have had nothing to do with mistakes we've made in the past. America can do no wrong.

AlbqSooner

3/9/2011, 11:09 PM

You're truly a fruit loop and why any other posters continue to waste their breath arguing with you, I don't quite understand.

Only reason i do is because leroid has not jumped in yet.:D

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:09 PM

I am still waiting for you to give us the study of what you said:

"A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam, many of whom were treated even worse than McCain, reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered."

If it is a Military study, then it shouldn't be that hard to find...especially since what you stated was in quotes...meaning you are stating it verbatim or paraphrasing the study itself....

Or is it the fact that you are just reciting what you have heard?

Curly Bill

3/9/2011, 11:10 PM

Only reason i do is because leroid has not jumped in yet.:D

No kidding, this freak and Leroid could kick this back and forth all night.

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:12 PM

Well....

WWII didn't result in peace for us or anyone else in the world. Just ask the Poles, Czechs, and everyone else that had to live under the tyranny of the Soviet Union as a result of the deals we made at the end of that war. Not to mention the fact that WWII resulted in the collapse of European colonialism in Asia that resulted in numerous civil wars including one in a little **** hole called Vietnam.

Wars don't bring peace -- they just set the stage for the next one.

I didnt say Wars bring peace...I said you cannot have peace without war.

Meaning it is almost impossible to have peace when there are so many differences in this world.

Curly Bill

3/9/2011, 11:15 PM

I didnt say Wars bring peace...I said you cannot have peace without war.

Meaning it is almost impossible to have peace when there are so many differences in this world.

And this is why we need to all sit around the campfire together and sing Kumbaya. :rolleyes:

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:16 PM

http://www.prisoncommission.org/pdfs/Confronting_Confinement.pdf

Not the military study that was referenced in the original article, but a prison survey still from the original article.

"prisoners end up locked in their cells 23 hours a day, every day. . . is so severe that people end up completely isolated, living in what can only be described as torturous conditions."

"The Report documented numerous psychiatric studies of individuals held in prolonged isolation which demonstrate "a constellation of symptoms that includes overwhelming anxiety, confusion and hallucination, and sudden violent and self-destructive outbursts." The above-referenced article from the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law states: "Psychological effects can include anxiety, depression, anger, cognitive disturbances, perceptual distortions, obsessive thoughts, paranoia, and psychosis."

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:17 PM

By recent, I mean after World War II, I'm not going to question whether World War II was necessary or not.

Because we had so many attacks before and all...terrorists want to kill Americans because we intervene in their national affairs, prop up tyrants and violate what they consider sacred. The best way to prevent terrorism is to stop participating in it.

You do know that our embassies in other countries are US terrorities, right?

We have had military barracks attacked by terrorists. We have had embassies attacked. We have had our US military ships attacked by terrorists. We have had 3 terror attacks inside our borders since 1990 (WTC in 1993, OKC 1995, and WTC 2001).

So yes, our interests, our land, our military, and our citizens have been attacked by terrorists many times.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:17 PM

Meaning it is almost impossible to have peace when there are so many differences in this world.
So we should not intervene in what everyone is doing and exasperate these differences, correct?

MR2-Sooner86

3/9/2011, 11:18 PM

Just responding to your "grown up" insults and jabs at me.

When you act like a grown up I'll treat you like one.

Here's the "article" you quoted so much.

The inhumane conditions of Bradley Manning's detention (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning)

Some nice little gems from the article.

Bradley Manning, the 22-year-old U.S. Army Private accused of leaking classified documents to WikiLeaks, has never been convicted of that crime, nor of any other crime. Despite that, he has been detained at the U.S. Marine brig in Quantico, Virginia for five months -- and for two months before that in a military jail in Kuwait -- under conditions that constitute cruel and inhumane treatment and, by the standards of many nations, even torture.

the accused leaker is subjected to detention conditions likely to create long-term psychological injuries

Since his arrest in May, Manning has been a model detainee, without any episodes of violence or disciplinary problems. He nonetheless was declared from the start to be a "Maximum Custody Detainee," the highest and most repressive level of military detention, which then became the basis for the series of inhumane measures imposed on him.

Manning has been subjected for many months without pause to inhumane, personality-erasing, soul-destroying, insanity-inducing conditions of isolation similar to those perfected at America's Supermax prison in Florence, Colorado: all without so much as having been convicted of anything.

Alright everybody pay attention. Here's the proof we needed. This is what was quoted by SouthCarolinaSooner as fact Manning is being tortured.

"A U.S. military study of almost a hundred and fifty naval aviators returned from imprisonment in Vietnam . . . reported that they found social isolation to be as torturous and agonizing as any physical abuse they suffered."

It's one thing to impose such punitive, barbaric measures on convicts who have proven to be violent when around other prisoners; at the Supermax in Florence, inmates convicted of the most heinous crimes and who pose a threat to prison order and the safety of others are subjected to worse treatment than what Manning experiences. But it's another thing entirely to impose such conditions on individuals, like Manning, who have been convicted of nothing and have never demonstrated an iota of physical threat or disorder.

These people wouldn't know torture if it took a big bite out of their ***. Nothing more than the "big bad military" coming down on poor Manning.

You want to know torture?

Google Eduard Wirths and what he did with the Nazi SS. There were American POWs that were in those experiments.
How about how the Japanese shot American POWs in the stomach and had doctors do surgeries on them without any anesthetic?

Yeah, we're just treating Manning so badly :rolleyes:

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:20 PM

You do know that our embassies in other countries are US terrorities, right?

We have had military barracks attacked by terrorists. We have had embassies attacked. We have had our US military ships attacked by terrorists. We have had 3 terror attacks inside our borders since 1990 (WTC in 1993, OKC 1995, and WTC 2001).

So yes, our interests, our land, our military, and our citizens have been attacked by terrorists many times.
There is still quite a difference in a terrorist hitting Nairobi and one hitting Oklahoma City. I know that embassies are technically American soil, but attacks there don't have the impact as one in the continental US. How does invading Afghanistan prevent another Tim Mcveigh :confused:

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/
Links to plenty of studies from this article

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:21 PM

You're right, 9/11 and the ensuing wars have had nothing to do with mistakes we've made in the past. America can do no wrong.

Like, making Sodamn insane leave Kuwait? Like us stopping Genocide in the Balkans? Like us bringing down more tyrants than we prop up? Like us wanting all people to have freedoms and liberties that we take for granted every day (including in this thread)?

America has done plenty of wrong...but we are also one of the very first countries to send aid to those in need!

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:21 PM

These people wouldn't know torture if it took a big bite out of their ***. Nothing more than the "big bad military" coming down on poor Manning.

You want to know torture?

Google Eduard Wirths and what he did with the Nazi SS. There were American POWs that were in those experiments.
How about how the Japanese shot American POWs in the stomach and had doctors do surgeries on them without any anesthetic?

Yeah, we're just treating Manning so badly :rolleyes:
"Well at least we aren't as bad as the Nazis and Japs"

Set your standards high!

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:23 PM

There is still quite a difference in a terrorist hitting Nairobi and one hitting Oklahoma City. I know that embassies are technically American soil, but attacks there don't have the impact as one in the continental US. How does invading Afghanistan prevent another Tim Mcveigh :confused:

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/
Links to plenty of studies from this article

It doesn't....but since the OKC bombing things have changed. And it has really changed since over 3000 died because of religious zealot wants to force his ignorance on the rest of the world!

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:24 PM

And this is why we need to all sit around the campfire together and sing Kumbaya. :rolleyes:

Yeah...that is exactly what I implied. :rolleyes:

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:26 PM

Like, making Sodamn insane leave Kuwait? Like us stopping Genocide in the Balkans? Like us bringing down more tyrants than we prop up? Like us wanting all people to have freedoms and liberties that we take for granted every day (including in this thread)?

America has done plenty of wrong...but we are also one of the very first countries to send aid to those in need!
I didn't say everything we've done is bad, of course our actions in Yugoslavia stopped much bloodshed and were needed, as well as intervention in Kuwait. Unfortunately because of the latter, we gave Osama two of the three reasons he listed for ordering 9/11.

Bringing down more tyrants that we prop up, now that would be an interesting scorecard!

Freedom and liberties, like freedom of information, government transparency and accountability?

Mongo

3/9/2011, 11:26 PM

My **** would be sore as hell if I was in solitary

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:27 PM

So we should not intervene in what everyone is doing and exasperate these differences, correct?

I am all for isolation...bringing our troops home and letting the rest of the world to beat the hell out of each other...but at the same time there I also believe there are times when we should flex our muscles and **** up anyone that wants to try to destroy our way of life!

Should we be the police of the world? No...but at the same time, we are the only Super-Power in the world right now, so other countries and people look to us for help.

Curly Bill

3/9/2011, 11:28 PM

Yeah...that is exactly what I implied. :rolleyes:

I didn't direct that at you ya dumas. It was directed at flower boy, that y'all keep arguing with. :P

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:29 PM

I am all for isolation...bringing our troops home and letting the rest of the world to beat the hell out of each other...but at the same time there I also believe there are times when we should flex our muscles and **** up anyone that wants to try to destroy our way of life!

Should we be the police of the world? No...but at the same time, we are the only Super-Power in the world right now, so other countries and people look to us for help.
They want to destroy our way of life because in many ways we have tried to do the same to them, if it was unintentional or not.

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:31 PM

I didn't say everything we've done is bad, of course our actions in Yugoslavia stopped much bloodshed and were needed, as well as intervention in Kuwait. Unfortunately because of the latter, we gave Osama two of the three reasons he listed for ordering 9/11.

Bringing down more tyrants that we prop up, now that would be an interesting scorecard!

Freedom and liberties, like freedom of information, government transparency and accountability?

Osama was planning to do harm to Americans well before we stepped foot in Saudia Arabia....if you think otherwise, you are just naive!

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:32 PM

I didn't direct that at you ya dumas. It was directed at flower boy, that y'all keep arguing with. :P

Well, you quoted me. LOL :mad:

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:33 PM

Osama was planning to do harm to Americans well before we stepped foot in Saudia Arabia....if you think otherwise, you are just naive!
http://www.cfr.org/terrorist-leaders/profile-osama-bin-laden/p9951#p11

When did bin Laden begin to consider the United States his enemy?
In the 1980s, bin Laden disdained America for its alliances with Israel and moderate Muslim states, but it was the Gulf crisis that crystallized his hatred.

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:34 PM

They want to destroy our way of life because in many ways we have tried to do the same to them, if it was unintentional or not.

Please...show me were we have invaded their way of life without them asking for it?

Please do...I ll be waiting, but not holding my breathe!

Hell, even when we were supplying the afghans when they were fighting russia, Osama was wanting to do harm to our ideology. The man is just a brainwashed idiot...nothing more!

Curly Bill

3/9/2011, 11:35 PM

Well, you quoted me. LOL :mad:

My bad, I'm largely in agreement with you, just poking fun at flower boy, as in if we just all came together in song and dance we could avoid all this nasty fighting and war stuff.

SicEmBaylor

3/9/2011, 11:36 PM

It doesn't....but since the OKC bombing things have changed. And it has really changed since over 3000 died because of religious zealot wants to force his ignorance on the rest of the world!

Things have changed since the OKC bombing because the Justice Department finally figured out that laying siege to American citizens like it was storming the shores at Omaha Beach is probably a bad f'n idea. It goes to show that what the government does (and its policies) has a direct correlation to how the people that are subject to those actions will react and those people react with whatever means they have available. For McVeigh and the radical muslims the tactic was the same...terrorism.

Now, I'm damned sure not making excuses for or apologizing for either of those sick f'ks but there's a reason why they do the things that they do.

The Muslim world is highly sensitive to the idea of infidels meddling and manipulating their affairs and way of life. It's why we should stay as far away from this **** in the middle east as possible. It's why Giuliani and McCain were out of their ever lovin' minds for suggesting that the US and Israel take an active role in promoting democracy in Egypt. Can you even begin to imagine what the average man on the street in Egypt would think if the US let alone Israel was pulling the puppet strings? Wow...

It amazes me that people who think the government can do no right in domestic affairs can believe that same government can do no wrong in international affairs. The US government is just as incompetent in its foreign affairs as it is its domestic...if not more so (amazingly enough).

Would a select group of radical muslims still hate the United States even if we weren't meddling in their affairs and otherwise doing everything we can to **** the entire region off? Sure...but they'd have a lot less material to recruit with and far fewer young kids ready to blow themselves up for jihad.

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:37 PM

http://www.cfr.org/terrorist-leaders/profile-osama-bin-laden/p9951#p11

When did bin Laden begin to consider the United States his enemy?
In the 1980s, bin Laden disdained America for its alliances with Israel and moderate Muslim states, but it was the Gulf crisis that crystallized his hatred.

Exactly...he hated us well before the first gulf war!

He thinks no country that is not a state of Islam has any right in Saudia Arabia or the rest of the Arab world...even when his own government wanted the help.

The guy is extremist...had there been no gulf war, he would have still been planning terrorist attacks because he wants the entire world to be an Islamic State.

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:38 PM

My bad, I'm largely in agreement with you, just poking fun at flower boy, as in if we just all came together in song and dance we could avoid all this nasty fighting and war stuff.

Is alright...my feelbads werent too hurt! :gary:

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:42 PM

Please...show me were we have invaded their way of life without them asking for it?

Please do...I ll be waiting, but not holding my breathe!

Hell, even when we were supplying the afghans when they were fighting russia, Osama was wanting to do harm to our ideology. The man is just a brainwashed idiot...nothing more!
Operation Southern Watch

Black September

Supporting Za'im

Supporting Pahlawi

Supporting Saddam

Supporting Qaddafi

Supporting Sadat

Supporting Mubarak

Supporting the Saudi Royal Family

OU_Sooners75

3/9/2011, 11:46 PM

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/9/2011, 11:51 PM

And yet, all of them are backed by the UN as well....hmmmm

We supported Saddam for one reason and one reason only....

Does the saying, "The enemy of my enemy," mean anything to you?

We have never supported Qaddafi. In fact, if by supporting this guy, you mean having an embargo against him and his country...then yeah, your right we support him.
So you think UN backing should be required for US actions?

Does the saying, blowback, mean anything to you?

I believe the CIA gave him support when he initially came to power in the 1960s because he was originally anti commie.

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:03 AM

So you think UN backing should be required for US actions?

Does the saying, blowback, mean anything to you?

I believe the CIA gave him support when he initially came to power in the 1960s because he was originally anti commie.

Isn't the UN suppose to be you socialists way of saying let others deal with it?

And no, not sure what to make out of blowback.

Is that like brokeback?

StoopTroup

3/10/2011, 12:05 AM

So you think UN backing should be required for US actions?

Does the saying, blowback, mean anything to you?

I believe the CIA gave him support when he initially came to power in the 1960s because he was originally anti commie.

You are an alarmist. You don't have anything positive to say. You offer no ideas on long or short term approaches to change any of it. You act like Foriegn Affairs are black and white and if you were in charge of it all....i'd suspect you'd get impeached within a week or hang yourself AKA David Carradine Style or Aliens would finally invade the Earth and stop you from destroying it (WWIII) and then put us all to work mining our Worlds Resources. Once you were unable to mine you would be sent to the Death Camps to be ground into Soylent Green.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/10/2011, 12:07 AM

Isn't the UN suppose to be you socialists way of saying let others deal with it?

And no, not sure what to make out of blowback.

Is that like brokeback?
No, its just interesting you cite UN support when the UN basically told us not to go into Iraq. Stop with the pathetic attempts at trolling me by calling me socialist.

Supporting enemies of our enemies often blows up in our faces

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/10/2011, 12:10 AM

You are an alarmist. You don't have anything positive to say. You offer no ideas on long or short term approaches to change any of it. You act like Foriegn Affairs are black and white and if you were in charge of it all....i'd suspect you'd get impeached within a week or hang yourself AKA David Carradine Style or Aliens would finally invade the Earth and stop you from destroying it (WWIII) and then put us all to work mining our Worlds Resources. Once you were unable to mine you would be sent to the Death Camps to be ground into Soylent Green.
This thread hasn't been about solutions, and while I certainly don't pretend to have them or really many at all, we should start with practicing what we preach and upholding the constitution before we try to force others to do it.

Curly Bill

3/10/2011, 12:10 AM

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/10/2011, 12:11 AM

In all fairness, I'm sure he thought you'd take that as a compliment.
In all fairness, he should look at anything I've said previously about my liberalism or just at my avatar...

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:12 AM

No, its just interesting you cite UN support when the UN basically told us not to go into Iraq. Stop with the pathetic attempts at trolling me by calling me socialist.

Supporting enemies of our enemies often blows up in our faces

you learn quick don't you?

And no, the UN didnt want us in Iraq...however, they did pass a resolution 19-0 that stated Saddam need to comply or else.
Bush took the or else...and well, the rest is history.

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:14 AM

This thread hasn't been about solutions, and while I certainly don't pretend to have them or really many at all, we should start with practicing what we preach and upholding the constitution before we try to force others to do it.

Dont go full retard on us just yet!

And dont be using the constitution card...because you are taking the liberties and freedoms for granted just like the rest of us are!

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/10/2011, 12:17 AM

you learn quick don't you?

And no, the UN didnt want us in Iraq...however, they did pass a resolution 19-0 that stated Saddam need to comply or else.
Bush took the or else...and well, the rest is history.
And where are those weapons of mass destruction they were not in compliance with?

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/10/2011, 12:18 AM

And do be using the constitution card...because you are taking the liberties and freedoms for granted just like the rest of us are!
?

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:19 AM

And where are those weapons of mass destruction they were not in compliance with?

Let me guess....

You assume I am a republican or a conservative, right?

I think Bush and others, even your mentors John Kerry and Al Gore, had it under "good" intelligence that there were WMDs there.

So say what you will...all the US politicians had the same intelligence reports.

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:20 AM

?

dont rather than do...:O

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:23 AM

Okay....Im done here....for tonight anyway....Goin to get my fat *** something to eat and watch some CNN pron and go to bed!

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/10/2011, 12:24 AM

Let me guess....

You assume I am a republican or a conservative, right?

I think Bush and others, even your mentors John Kerry and Al Gore, had it under "good" intelligence that there were WMDs there.

So say what you will...all the US politicians had the same intelligence reports.
I assume you support Bush's taking the "or else..."

"Bush didn't give a **** about the intelligence. He had his mind made up."

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/09/hbc-90001123

StoopTroup

3/10/2011, 12:24 AM

And where are those weapons of mass destruction they were not in compliance with?

If they were up your *** you'd know where they were.

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/10/2011, 12:25 AM

dont rather than do...:O
Apologies for trying to make sure the Constitution is upheld :(

StoopTroup

3/10/2011, 12:25 AM

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/10/2011, 12:27 AM

You do understand why he'd made up his mind right?
Please enlighten me, because whatever I say will be wrong

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:27 AM

I assume you support Bush's taking the "or else..."

"Bush didn't give a **** about the intelligence. He had his mind made up."

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/09/hbc-90001123

Stop posting the left wing propaganda! please.....

We all know Bush had his mind made up...hell my twin and I had a conversation after he was sworn into office about how long it would be before he finishes what his father should have!

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:28 AM

Pleas enlighten me, because whatever I say will be wrong

I wouldnt say wrong...just misguided. :texan:

sooner59

3/10/2011, 12:28 AM

Saddam tried to kill my father, yo!

Just kidding, it was oil.......right?

Or do they have unobtainium? Did Saddam neg Dubya? I bet it was something like that. :D

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/10/2011, 12:29 AM

Stop posting the left wing propaganda! please.....

We all know Bush had his mind made up...hell my twin and I had a conversation after he was sworn into office about how long it would be before he finishes what his father should have!
And this is an acceptable reason to go to war? To finish what daddy started?

StoopTroup

3/10/2011, 12:32 AM

Please enlighten me, because whatever I say will be wrong

At least you got something right tonight.

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:32 AM

Apologies for trying to make sure the Constitution is upheld :(

I don't see where it is not being upheld on the OP? I really dont.

He may be in solitary confinement...but there are reasons why an inmate would be in SC.

1. He is a threat to the general population
2. He is classified as a targeted inmate (Meaning people in general population will try to harm him or kill him).
3. He is on suicide watch
4. Because of disciplinary actions, violating rules of the prison.

I think it is #2. He is not being mistreated. He is getting 3 meals and a cot and being protected. That is all the prison is required to give him! (besides the essentials like soap, a cup, razor for shaving, and if he is nice, he can have reading material.)

SouthCarolinaSooner

3/10/2011, 12:34 AM

I don't see where it is not being upheld on the OP? I really dont.

He may be solitary confinement...but there are reasons why an inmate would be in SC.

1. He is a threat to the general population
2. He is classified as a targeted inmate (Meaning people in general population will try to harm him or kill him).
3. He is on suicide watch
4. Because of disciplinary actions, violating rules of the prison.

I think it is #2. He is not being mistreated. He is getting 3 meals and a cot and being protected. That is all the prison is required to give him!
Woaahhhh I don't think we've been talking about Bradley Manning for a while...you asked for solutions, I said "uphold the constitution" which I meant as a generality for all situations.

Anyways I gotta sleep.

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:35 AM

And this is an acceptable reason to go to war? To finish what daddy started?

Do you just naturally add to what people post or the words they speak?

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:37 AM

Woaahhhh I don't think we've been talking about Bradley Manning for a while...you asked for solutions, I said "uphold the constitution" which I meant as a generality for all situations.

Anyways I gotta sleep.

Where did I ask for solutions?

Im just a fisherman and have a big one on the hook. :D

StoopTroup

3/10/2011, 12:43 AM

And this is an acceptable reason to go to war? To finish what daddy started?

So Black and White. EvenIi give him more credit than that. I don't think anyone will ever understand what all the reasons were but I can think of plenty of reasons why and I'll bet a ****load of them come from other Countries around there that expressed how grateful they would be if Saddam was gone, no matter what the UN thought. The UN was being used by Saddam as protection. He felt the UN took way to much time in trying to uncover the WMD's and in doing so was allowing Saddam the opportunity to weasel out. Saddam's reaction to 9-11-01. The threat he put on his Father and his Family. The gas he used in a previous War. The relations between us were awful and Saddam's arrogance pulled at GWB's last nerve as Saddam acted like GWB was just his Father's lil Boy who didn't have the balls to take him on. Hell.....I could go on....

Thing is GWB knew he could never sell the war without WMDs and he got it sold and within not to damn long.....he made a believer out of Saddam and we boxed up his two Son's dead asses too.

You can think it wasn't right all you want....it isn't going to change the fact that we now have to help over there until they demand we leave. Even then....it will be up to whoever is POTUS when we decide to go.

StoopTroup

3/10/2011, 12:45 AM

Where did I ask for solutions?

Im just a fisherman and have a big one on the hook. :D

Alligator Gar?

OU_Sooners75

3/10/2011, 12:49 AM

Alligator Gar?

Lookin at a record! ;)

Blue

3/10/2011, 01:17 AM

So Black and White. EvenIi give him more credit than that. I don't think anyone will ever understand what all the reasons were but I can think of plenty of reasons why and I'll bet a ****load of them come from other Countries around there that expressed how grateful they would be if Saddam was gone, no matter what the UN thought. The UN was being used by Saddam as protection. He felt the UN took way to much time in trying to uncover the WMD's and in doing so was allowing Saddam the opportunity to weasel out. Saddam's reaction to 9-11-01. The threat he put on his Father and his Family. The gas he used in a previous War. The relations between us were awful and Saddam's arrogance pulled at GWB's last nerve as Saddam acted like GWB was just his Father's lil Boy who didn't have the balls to take him on. Hell.....I could go on....

Thing is GWB knew he could never sell the war without WMDs and he got it sold and within not to damn long.....he made a believer out of Saddam and we boxed up his two Son's dead asses too.

You can think it wasn't right all you want....it isn't going to change the fact that we now have to help over there until they demand we leave. Even then....it will be up to whoever is POTUS when we decide to go.

Saddam= Achmadenijad= Kim Jong Il= Noriega= Kadafi= ANY LEADER OF A COUNTRY that doesn't go along with the NWO.

They are evil bc the media tells us so.

StoopTroup

3/10/2011, 01:20 AM

Saddam= Achmadenijad= Kim Jong Il= Noriega= Kadafi= ANY LEADER OF A COUNTRY that doesn't go along with the NWO.

They are evil bc the media tells us so.

lol. I think every damn leader of every damned Country in this World is evil. We are all sinners and none of us are immune from greed and power.

Everyone of those guys disappearing would make the World a better place.

SCOUT

3/10/2011, 01:33 AM

Saddam= Achmadenijad= Kim Jong Il= Noriega= Kadafi= ANY LEADER OF A COUNTRY that doesn't go along with the NWO.

They are evil bc the media tells us so.

This is a truly frightening post. My hope is that it is satire and not a true belief.

StoopTroup

3/10/2011, 01:37 AM

Tony Blair of the Blair Witch Project = E V I L ! ! !

Blue

3/10/2011, 02:24 AM

This is a truly frightening post. My hope is that it is satire and not a true belief.

Do you think Cameron, Merkel, Obama, Sarkozi, Berlasconi, Putin, etc...are any better???

Why do you think that they are. Who tells you they are?

My point is that it seems if you are a leader of a country in the 21st century that does not play by the IMFs rules or trade US petro dollars, all the sudden you are a "Rogue" "Axis of Evil" State.

What is frightening are people that believe that their leaders have their values and best interests at heart at all times.

StoopTroup

3/10/2011, 08:16 AM

What is frightening are people that believe that their leaders have their values and best interests at heart at all times.

That's really all we mostly argue about when one of these guys with one World view or one Party veiw comes trapesing along in one of these threads. I think most of us are wondering when we will see another group of folks come along that we can really support and have at least a feeling that they can actually make sense of the mess our lazy *** Senators and Representatives and SCOTUS has gotten us all into. It seems though that we all have become a mass of people who's only hope is to find a cause great enough to try and put the fire out....then once the fire is out....like the Coliseums of Rome....we grow weary of the lack of blood and search for another cause to crush with our computers.