There is something very wrong

[MamaMia]

when union dues are spent to support political candidates.

[The Profit]

when union dues are spent to support political candidates.

Why?

[KABOOKIE]

especially when those dues are taken from salaries of state/federal employees.

[KABOOKIE]

unions are absolutely a worthless scam in today's time. they rob from the people they claim to protect.

[StoopTroup]

And are evidently more important to folks that must negotiate with them than the folks who they rob/protect.

[Caboose]

Why?

You wont understand. Not because you are incapable... but because you are willfully ignorant. When something conflicts with your worldview you simply refuse to accept it or attempt to muddle it beyond comprehension.

[delhalew]

when union dues are spent to support political candidates.

Only when the paying of dues is compulsory whether you want to join or not, and you then have no say on how they are spent. That is one hell of a racket.

[Sooner5030]

you shatup......if it weren't for unions the teachers would be required to inhale coal dust and work without a hard hat.

what a f/ing scam they have going.....pilots, pro-sports, teachers and government workers that have defined benefit plans (pensions).

[delhalew]

How dare anyone suggest public workers be judged by merit, rather than the number of years spent suckling the taxpayer teet.

[KABOOKIE]

Can you imagine the liberal commies of this board frothing at the mouth if against their will an organization took a portion of their salary and then donated it to republicans?


http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/union-thugs.jpg

[Turd_Ferguson]

A scam. Nothing more, nothing less. A scam.

[soonercruiser]

Only when the paying of dues is compulsory whether you want to join or not, and you then have no say on how they are spent. That is one hell of a racket.

This IS THE PROBLEM, in states where employees are required to be union members and pay dues, before they even get the job.
I really don't see how this was ever considered as "Constitutional"?
Many union members do not have the freedom to oppose their union dues being used for something that they do not approve of.
HAIL TO THE "RIGHT TO WORK" STATES!
(You get the govment you deserve!)

[tcrb]

especially when those dues are taken from salaries of state/federal employees.

And those salaries are paid with OUR tax dollars!

[Caboose]

Public worker unions are simply a way to force the tax-payer to fund the Democratic party.

[MamaMia]

Only when the paying of dues is compulsory whether you want to join or not, and you then have no say on how they are spent. That is one hell of a racket.

Yes. When the union dues are mandatory, some candidates are financially supported by members who don't even want them in office.

In this case we have Jade Thompson, the wife of Ohio Representative Andy Thompson, whos mandatory union dues actually contributed to the campaign of her husbands opponent.


October 11, 2010

I'm Jade Thompson and my husband, Andy Thompson, is running for the Ohio House of Representatives. I am a teacher at Marietta High School. Imagine my chagrin when my friends and colleagues began showing me the awful attack ads against my husband which they had received in the mail. Now imagine my dismay when I saw that those defamatory mailers were paid for by the Ohio Education Association - my teachers' union. In effect, they are using my union dues to attack my husband! This is a new low, even for the OEA.

There was a recent letter to the editor about AEP withdrawing its support from the Ohio Chamber of Commerce because the chamber made a political endorsement. The writer found it "inappropriate and shameful" for that organization to ignore its members. I wonder if she would say the same for the OEA, an organization that endorses the most liberal candidates in the field and which month after month promotes progressive causes and programs in its member newsletter. Are Ohio's teachers that unanimously liberal or does our union simply not represent our views at all? If teachers are representative of the larger voting public then you would expect that our political views would be just as diverse.

Teachers should be free to spend their hard-earned dollars to contribute to the candidates and causes they actually support. The OEA and its parent organization, the NEA, refuse to acquiesce because they have an obvious agenda. After all, as the general counsel for the NEA once said in federal court, "if you take away payroll deduction, you won't collect a penny from these people, and it has nothing to do with voluntary or involuntary. I think it has to do with the nature of the beast, and the beasts who are our teachers ... (They) simply don't come up with the money regardless of the purpose." Teachers, this is what your union thinks of you.

Andy will support a paycheck protection law that prevents teachers' union dues from being used for political propaganda without written permission. The Ohio legislature passed this legislation twice before but the previously liberal Ohio Supreme Court overturned the will of the people. I am hopeful that Andy and a newly elected Conservative majority in the Ohio House can protect the rights of teachers in this state to keep their money from funding the political agenda of any organization without their approval.

Jade Thompson

Marietta

http://www.mariettatimes.com/page/content.detail/id/530524/Attack-ads-a-new-low--even-for-the-OEA.html?nav=5007

[2121Sooner]

I agree with Mama Mia 100%. It truly is disgusting when these unions go out and try to buy support for their cause with money to a campaign. It is such a blantant attempt to buy favors.


Good for you Mama Mia.

[StoopTroup]

When talking about scams, I truly believe the best way to measure one's worth is by measuring the amount of money that such organization scams money. For instance can a Union measure up to a Bernie Madeoff or a Micheal Milken or an Enron or Commercial Finance (CFS)? What about Congress and it's affect on people's pocketbooks? Let us not forget the last big one and just how many people it affected - The Loaning of Money for Houses and the Financial Collapse of our Countries Banking System which nearly led us into a 2nd Great Depression. IMO the largest Scam was Blackwater's (Dick Cheney) involvement of Nation Building. Why we are continuing to pour Billions into Afghanistan is another scam that continues to spend billions of our tax dollars while Pubs preach how peoples pensions and right to negotiate wages and benefits are the main reason our Country and Stated are falling apart...yet since they now find it worthless to outsource jobs they turn to rehiring their lost workforce and wondering why nobody wants to come to work. Could it be that they have scammed themselves into a corner and now they want to put an end to negotiating and instead offer scat and
Starvation and dead end jobs as incentives?

Nah....it's that 3-500 a year those damn Unions pilfer off those poor lost uneducated Teachers.

LMAO

No matter what happens....I truly believe we are headed towards something much worse once this "Schadenfreude" attitude of going after people you think have it better than they deserve.

I know for a fact that when I was young I would have given anything for someone from the Small Business Administration or Venture Capitol to help me and as nobody wished to take any kind of risk I did exactly the opposite and went to work for one of the largest, best funded, best benefit, best Future Corporations I could find. I Started for $5.00 per hour part time at night and over 20 plus years worked my way to as near the top wage and top responsibility jobs in that Corporation. Now of course after 20 years I and everyone I work with that are left after a decade of attrition are over paid, lazy, Worthless, useless Union Workers that do more work per worker than has ever been done in the History of that Corporation. What is so incredible is that said Corporation's Gross receipts and yield are as high as they ever have been even though the workers have taken pay cuts and changed work rules every time they have been asked and they have helped bring in outside work that made Millions only to be told they now are unable to take in the work now as they are at capacity to be able to get their own work done.

It's not that people make to much or their benefits are to expensive...it's because of politics and bureaucracies that continue to not be Leaders or take risks or look to the future. They have now become like the Corporate Raiders who used to buy Corporations up then either find out just how far people will degrade themselves to keep things going or to dismantle the Companies
Until they made enough dough to retire to the Caymen Islands and later wait around for offers to help take another Corporation apart. What the really fun part is is that they can't lose. They get paid millions for milking every one of them as efficiently as possible.

Thus...

The New America

What a shame that we continue to allow them to use our Families like 2 ply Best Buy Toilet Paper. It won't take long for the backlash to put and end to the Republican Party with whack jobs like Scott Walker of Wisconsin being a relic of the past.

[SCOUT]

When talking about scams, I truly believe the best way to measure one's worth is by measuring the amount of money that such organization scams money. For instance can a Union measure up to a Bernie Madeoff or a Micheal Milken or an Enron or Commercial Finance (CFS)? What about Congress and it's affect on people's pocketbooks? Let us not forget the last big one and just how many people it affected - The Loaning of Money for Houses and the Financial Collapse of our Countries Banking System which nearly led us into a 2nd Great Depression. IMO the largest Scam was Blackwater's (Dick Cheney) involvement of Nation Building. Why we are continuing to pour Billions into Afghanistan is another scam that continues to spend billions of our tax dollars while Pubs preach how peoples pensions and right to negotiate wages and benefits are the main reason our Country and Stated are falling apart...yet since they now find it worthless to outsource jobs they turn to rehiring their lost workforce and wondering why nobody wants to come to work. Could it be that they have scammed themselves into a corner and now they want to put an end to negotiating and instead offer scat and
Starvation and dead end jobs as incentives?

Nah....it's that 3-500 a year those damn Unions pilfer off those poor lost uneducated Teachers.

LMAO

No matter what happens....I truly believe we are headed towards something much worse once this "Schadenfreude" attitude of going after people you think have it better than they deserve.

I know for a fact that when I was young I would have given anything for someone from the Small Business Administration or Venture Capitol and as nobody wished to take any kind of risk I did exactly the opposite and went to work for one of the largest, best funded, best benefit, best Future Corporations I could find. I Started for $5.00 per hour part time at night and over 20 plus years worked my way to as near the top wage and top responsibility jobs in that Corporation. Now of course after 20 years I and everyone I work with that are left after a decade of attrition are over paid, lazy, Worthless, useless Union Workers that do more work per worker than has ever been done in the History of that Corporation. What is so incredible is that said Corporation Gross receipts and yield are as high as they ever have been even though the workers have taken pay cuts and changed work rules every time they have been asked and they have helped bring in outside work that made Millions only to be told they now are unable to take in the work now as they are at capacity to be able to get their own work done.

It's not that people make to much or their benefits are to expensive...it's because of politics and bureaucracies that continue to not be Leaders or take risks or look to the future. They have now become like the Corporate Raiders who used to buy Corporations up then either find out just how far people will degrade themselves to keep things going or to dismantle the Companies
Until they made enough dough to retire to the Caymen Islands and later wait around for offers to help take another Corporation apart. What the really fun
part is is that they can't lose. They get paid millions for milking every one if them as efficiently as possible.

Thus...

The New America

What a shame that we continue to allow them to use our Families like 2 ply Best Buy Toilet Paper. It won't take long fir the backlash to put and end to the Republican Party with whack jobs like Scott Walker of Wisconsin to be a relic of the past.
I am sure that your assessment of your own contribution over time is completely unbiased.

Look, Corporations are in it to make money. A by-product of that motivation is job creation. It does NOT work the other way around. Period.

Unions view the world through the lens that you appear to. Workers are the reason there is a company. In certain aspects, that is indeed the case. Financially, it is not. The adage that you can't draw blood from a turnip comes to mind. I know you, and other union workers, want more money, better benefits, etc. but without more income that isn't possible.

To your point that they are profitable now...Do you think that they are in that financial state BECAUSE of the labor decisions they have made over the years?

[soonercruiser]

When talking about scams, I truly believe the best way to measure one's worth is by measuring the amount of money that such organization scams money. For instance can a Union measure up to a Bernie Madeoff or a Micheal Milken or an Enron or Commercial Finance (CFS)? What about Congress and it's affect on people's pocketbooks? Let us not forget the last big one and just how many people it affected - The Loaning of Money for Houses and the Financial Collapse of our Countries Banking System which nearly led us into a 2nd Great Depression. IMO the largest Scam was Blackwater's (Dick Cheney) involvement of Nation Building. Why we are continuing to pour Billions into Afghanistan is another scam that continues to spend billions of our tax dollars while Pubs preach how peoples pensions and right to negotiate wages and benefits are the main reason our Country and Stated are falling apart...yet since they now find it worthless to outsource jobs they turn to rehiring their lost workforce and wondering why nobody wants to come to work. Could it be that they have scammed themselves into a corner and now they want to put an end to negotiating and instead offer scat and
Starvation and dead end jobs as incentives?

Nah....it's that 3-500 a year those damn Unions pilfer off those poor lost uneducated Teachers.

LMAO

No matter what happens....I truly believe we are headed towards something much worse once this "Schadenfreude" attitude of going after people you think have it better than they deserve.

I know for a fact that when I was young I would have given anything for someone from the Small Business Administration or Venture Capitol and as nobody wished to take any kind of risk I did exactly the opposite and went to work for one of the largest, best funded, best benefit, best Future Corporations I could find. I Started for $5.00 per hour part time at night and over 20 plus years worked my way to as near the top wage and top responsibility jobs in that Corporation. Now of course after 20 years I and everyone I work with that are left after a decade of attrition are over paid, lazy, Worthless, useless Union Workers that do more work per worker than has ever been done in the History of that Corporation. What is so incredible is that said Corporation Gross receipts and yield are as high as they ever have been even though the workers have taken pay cuts and changed work rules every time they have been asked and they have helped bring in outside work that made Millions only to be told they now are unable to take in the work now as they are at capacity to be able to get their own work done.

It's not that people make to much or their benefits are to expensive...it's because of politics and bureaucracies that continue to not be Leaders or take risks or look to the future. They have now become like the Corporate Raiders who used to buy Corporations up then either find out just how far people will degrade themselves to keep things going or to dismantle the Companies
Until they made enough dough to retire to the Caymen Islands and later wait around for offers to help take another Corporation apart. What the really fun
part is is that they can't lose. They get paid millions for milking every one if them as efficiently as possible.

Thus...

The New America

What a shame that we continue to allow them to use our Families like 2 ply Best Buy Toilet Paper. It won't take long fir the backlash to put and end to the Republican Party with whack jobs like Scott Walker of Wisconsin to be a relic of the past.

Stoop!
You left George Soros, GE, et al, off of your list.
Was it just an oversight - or a blind spot?

[mgsooner]

Man some of this rhetoric is unbelievable. I work for the state of Oklahoma. I do a damn good job. I can say without question that I am excellent at what I do. When I first started with the state back in 2004, I made 1800 a month. I have been promoted several times since then, but in no way am I living high on the hog. Yes the state pays for part of my health insurance, and yes I am on the pension system. I also pay (voluntarily) $15 a month to be a member of OPEA. To hear some of you talk I am just a lazy bum "suckling at the taxpayer teet". It doesn't matter how good of a job I do, I'm just another piece of sh*t state employee that should receive no benefits whatsoever and should be paid $6 an hour. And if I don't like it, I should just go find another job.

I didn't take my job to make a political statement. I needed a job. I could've left for a different job since then, but have stayed with the state because I like my job and have great co-workers. I realize you can't really compare public employees to the private sector, but what if someone came after your healthcare and your 401K? What if someone attacked your work ethic and competency even though they have never met you, don't even know the job you do, and have no idea how well you do it?

[OUNC06]

Why?

Most unions are listed as non-profit and are exempt from taxes. It is illegal for unions to contribute money to political candidates in these instances. Unions have been caught doing this. They have had to pay major dollars to the IRS for their illegal activities.

[soonercruiser]

Man some of this rhetoric is unbelievable. I work for the state of Oklahoma. I do a damn good job. I can say without question that I am excellent at what I do. When I first started with the state back in 2004, I made 1800 a month. I have been promoted several times since then, but in no way am I living high on the hog. Yes the state pays for part of my health insurance, and yes I am on the pension system. I also pay (voluntarily) $15 a month to be a member of OPEA. To hear some of you talk I am just a lazy bum "suckling at the taxpayer teet". It doesn't matter how good of a job I do, I'm just another piece of sh*t state employee that should receive no benefits whatsoever and should be paid $6 an hour. And if I don't like it, I should just go find another job.

I didn't take my job to make a political statement. I needed a job. I could've left for a different job since then, but have stayed with the state because I like my job and have great co-workers. I realize you can't really compare public employees to the private sector, but what if someone came after your healthcare and your 401K? What if someone attacked your work ethic and competency even though they have never met you, don't even know the job you do, and have no idea how well you do it?

Don't take it personal mg!
Most of those attacks by the likes of Profit and KC are attacks on a "known quantity" that they think can be titilated by their verbal teasing - like bullies in the school yard. (not you personally)
As a matter of fact, I am even guilty of verbally attacking libs, progressives, union types, etc., when I know that the generalization doesn't fit all.
I am a teacher at the OU level, and I have teachers in the family. Dad and the whole family were union people. So, I have seen both sides, including the union thug who tried to kill my dad.

Most of what you see as posts here are sweeping generalizations meant to get a rise out of the opposition.
But, thanks for the post.

[delhalew]

Man some of this rhetoric is unbelievable. I work for the state of Oklahoma. I do a damn good job. I can say without question that I am excellent at what I do. When I first started with the state back in 2004, I made 1800 a month. I have been promoted several times since then, but in no way am I living high on the hog. Yes the state pays for part of my health insurance, and yes I am on the pension system. I also pay (voluntarily) $15 a month to be a member of OPEA. To hear some of you talk I am just a lazy bum "suckling at the taxpayer teet". It doesn't matter how good of a job I do, I'm just another piece of sh*t state employee that should receive no benefits whatsoever and should be paid $6 an hour. And if I don't like it, I should just go find another job.

I didn't take my job to make a political statement. I needed a job. I could've left for a different job since then, but have stayed with the state because I like my job and have great co-workers. I realize you can't really compare public employees to the private sector, but what if someone came after your healthcare and your 401K? What if someone attacked your work ethic and competency even though they have never met you, don't even know the job you do, and have no idea how well you do it?

Settle down. As Tulsa Fireman has pointed out, there is a world of difference between unions in Oklahoma and those in the midwest.

Though, the potential for major problems is still there. You can get offended, but in many cases merit is the last consideration in a union setting. Teachers unions are a perfect example of this. Unions don't give you the best and brightest. If you have a problem teacher, in many states it is impossible to get rid of them. It's not right and you know it.

All of that before we even get to collective bargaining and having taxpayers over a barrel. Do we need to get into intimidation and violence?

No one wants to disparage you, the worker, especially in a right to work state. I can tell you, I don't trust your union bosses further than I can chunk 'em.

Also, even FDR thought union representation for public workers was a bad idea. I hate to give him credit, but look at us now.

[mgsooner]

Well, just to be clear, OPEA is not really a "union". OPEA is merely a lobbying group, and to be honest they do a pretty sh*tty job because not enough state workers join to give them any real clout at the capitol. Now the OTA, on the other hand, is a different story. The last I checked I think they had like 98% membership so they have a lot more clout than OPEA.

I'm all for a performance based pay system. Hell, I would love it. I have received the highest performance rating you can get on every single review I have ever gotten. You know what that gets me as far as a raise? Zero. I only get a raise when 1)I get promoted, or 2)the legislature votes to give ALL state employees a raise. I'm not trying to whine, I'm just telling you that's how it is. I would love for my performance ratings to actually mean something when it comes to compensation.

[KABOOKIE]

, but what if someone came after your healthcare and your 401K? What if someone attacked your work ethic and competency even though they have never met you, don't even know the job you do, and have no idea how well you do it?


You've been living under a rock lately???

[mgsooner]

You've been living under a rock lately???

Well if you knew that your company was going to try to take away your healthcare and your 401K, but thought that you might be able to do something to stop it, would you? Or would you just say "gee whiz that's just life." That's what OPEA does, they advocate for state employee compensation and benefits. Do they hold a gun to anybody's head or organize angry mobs on the capitol lawn? No. They couldn't do that even if they tried. OPEA honestly isn't successful in their efforts very often, but I figure the only way they have any chance is if as many state employees as possible join up.

[SCOUT]

Man some of this rhetoric is unbelievable. I work for the state of Oklahoma. I do a damn good job. I can say without question that I am excellent at what I do. When I first started with the state back in 2004, I made 1800 a month. I have been promoted several times since then, but in no way am I living high on the hog. Yes the state pays for part of my health insurance, and yes I am on the pension system. I also pay (voluntarily) $15 a month to be a member of OPEA. To hear some of you talk I am just a lazy bum "suckling at the taxpayer teet". It doesn't matter how good of a job I do, I'm just another piece of sh*t state employee that should receive no benefits whatsoever and should be paid $6 an hour. And if I don't like it, I should just go find another job.

I didn't take my job to make a political statement. I needed a job. I could've left for a different job since then, but have stayed with the state because I like my job and have great co-workers. I realize you can't really compare public employees to the private sector, but what if someone came after your healthcare and your 401K? What if someone attacked your work ethic and competency even though they have never met you, don't even know the job you do, and have no idea how well you do it?

If I may post my opinion. I am not asking you to quit your job or do anything
out of the ordinary. If however, your employer (in this case the state) should be bankrupt, or close to it, and unable to pay for its obligations, then you may need to be affected. That may be in the form of staff reduction, physical asset reduction or gradual reductions across the boards.

I don't find it beyond the pale to ask someone to sacrifice a small portion in order for the governing entity to survive.

The reason people get so violent in their response is because of the reality of the non-union world. The idea that an unfunded company should pay for employees is equivalent to dividing by zero. It isn't even an argument. It is defying the laws of math.

[delhalew]

Well if you knew that your company was going to try to take away your healthcare and your 401K, but thought that you might be able to do something to stop it, would you? Or would you just say "gee whiz that's just life." That's what OPEA does, they advocate for state employee compensation and benefits. Do they hold a gun to anybody's head or organize angry mobs on the capitol lawn? No. They couldn't do that even if they tried. OPEA honestly isn't successful in their efforts very often, but I figure the only way they have any chance is if as many state employees as possible join up.

To take Wisconsin as an example, of course you expect these people to protest and advocate for themselves. Who wants to voluntarily jump off the gravy train. These people have it SO good. You would hope, however, that they could behave in a less disgusting manner. They aren't winning anyone over. All the vile things that nobody could ever find proof of with the teaparty folks, have been prominently displayed in Madison.

They are going to have to give up bargaining power or be laid off. The unions will stretch out negotiations six months or more to get there way. Municipalities can't operate that way. Something has to give. Indiana is 8 BILLION in the hole. The number in New York and California would make you puke.

Edit:Ohio is 8 Billion in the hole. I don't remember the number for Indiana.

[mgsooner]

If I may post my opinion. I am not asking you to quit your job or do anything
out of the ordinary. If however, your employer (in this case the state) should be bankrupt, or close to it, and unable to pay for its obligations, then you may need to be affected. That may be in the form of staff reduction, physical asset reduction or gradual reductions across the boards.

I don't find it beyond the pale to ask someone to sacrifice a small portion in order for the governing entity to survive.

The reason people get so violent in their response is because of the reality of the non-union world. The idea that an unfunded company should pay for employees is equivalent to dividing by zero. It isn't even an argument. It is defying the laws of math.

I'm not asking my employer to do that. I'm not an idiot. We were right on the verge of being furloughed last year but some last second funding saved us. Honestly there was hardly any consternation or outrage when the proposed furloughs were communicated to the staff, at least not that I saw. Were people concerned? Yes. Were people disappointed? Yes. But we all understand the situation the state was in and realized it might be a necessary evil. The other alternative was no furlough but a bunch of people losing their jobs. Most everyone I came into contact with said that they would willingly be furloughed if it meant avoiding layoffs.

There just seems to be a movement in this country to label public employees as welfare recipients, and I don't understand that. The reason the state provides the benefits that they do to state employees is to 1)try to get people to come to work for the state to begin with and 2)get them to stay. I can tell you that the turnover in our agency is terrible, even today with a horrible economy. If the state didn't provide the benefits that they do it would be even worse. It is very difficult to secure talented employees and keep them given the salary we have to offer. The benefits help to offset that, but it is often not enough. People in this ttate love to complain about how inefficient and incompetent state employees are. Well if you slash all benefits to the bone I can just tell you that you ain't seen nothing yet. It can and will get much, much worse.

[SCOUT]

I'm not asking my employer to do that. I'm not an idiot. We were right on the verge of being furloughed last year but some last second funding saved us. Honestly there was hardly any consternation or outrage when the proposed furloughs were communicated to the staff, at least not that I saw. Were people concerned? Yes. Were people disappointed? Yes. But we all understand the situation the state was in and realized it might be a necessary evil. The other alternative was no furlough but a bunch of people losing their jobs. Most everyone I came into contact with said that they would willingly be furloughed if it meant avoiding layoffs.

There just seems to be a movement in this country to label public employees as welfare recipients, and I don't understand that. The reason the state provides the benefits that they do to state employees is to 1)try to get people to come to work for the state to begin with and 2)get them to stay. I can tell you that the turnover in our agency is terrible, even today with a horrible economy. If the state didn't provide the benefits that they do it would be even worse. It is very difficult to secure talented employees and keep them given the salary we have to offer. The benefits help to offset that, but it is often not enough. People in this ttate love to complain about how inefficient and incompetent state employees are. Well if you slash all benefits to the bone I can just tell you that you ain't seen nothing yet. It can and will get much, much worse.

I apologize if this strikes you wrong, but that sounds like a problem looking for a solution. Private companies deal with this all of the time. I can speak personally about having to lay my co-workers off during down times. It sucks. It is, however, a reality. Working for the state has been advertised as good because of the benefits and because of the job stability. If I could put a number on the number of people who chose a gov't job over the private one I was offering it would be around 200. Percentage wise, it would be close to 95%.

The reason is simple. Work for my company and you could do great things. Work for the government and we won't make you work and will give you things.

[StoopTroup]

you shatup......if it weren't for unions the teachers would be required to inhale coal dust and work without a hard hat.

what a f/ing scam they have going.....pilots, pro-sports, teachers and government workers that have defined benefit plans (pensions).

By Government Workers I'm guessing you are including all of them including military? I mean...the military used monetary incentive rather than good old "Do it for America!" or "Join because it's your duty as an American" and now expect everyone to pay higher taxes to defend and support multi organizations that treat their budgets like American Express Platinum Credit.

Now...don't go all Crazy on me here as I am and always will be a supporter of making sure we have the best damn Military in the World. What I am saying is that a good number of people joined that never thought they'd actually have to fight. Some do it as it's a Family Tradition to join the Marines for instance. What I'm getting at is what we have lost is doing it for God and Country has been replaced by doing it for not only the above reasons but that even though one risked his or her life defending our Country a good number of them expect even more benefits after serving and also expect free education and a pension. I'm for it as it was offered when they joined and once they have done what was expected it would be pretty low if some Politician later introduced legislation to block such benefits. That's exactly what is going on with the Teachers in Wisconsin. A Politician is trying to stop what was promised. It will hurt education and negotiations in that State decades after this is my guess. I would like to see our Country develop a mandatory way of service for people in our Country and take positive steps that would bring all of us closer as citizens of our Country instead of Citizens of red or blue States.

I'm probably being very naive but I've tried to avoid being jealous of folks who received more benefits than I over the years and now after years of hard work and loyalty I hear others call things they never sacrificed certain aspects of their lives for years in order to have such a pension as a nest egg. It's no less than asking our military personnel to do so after years of putting theirselves in harms way as well as asking their loved ones to also sacrifice. We all do these things for good reason rather than the instant gratification a good portion of our society now expect for everyone to live by.

If you're in the Private Sector it's best that you take what you can right now and get as much as possible as fast as you can as from now on you'll be up against giving people incentive on Fridays instead of expecting them to wait two weeks. You'll soon find people aren't loyal they don't care about anyone or anything but that paycheck as the idea of promise or a
Contract will be no good to anyone. Hell you might even have to pay them in gold unless you can go back to Company Script and
Force your workers to buy cheap white bread at Company Prices or trade it for half on the street.

[The Profit]

Most unions are listed as non-profit and are exempt from taxes. It is illegal for unions to contribute money to political candidates in these instances. Unions have been caught doing this. They have had to pay major dollars to the IRS for their illegal activities.




The same can be said for Political Action Committees (PACS). Every election cycle, you read about a PAC being fined for breaking Federal Campaign Laws.

I am really not a pro-union or anti-union advocate. There are good unions and there are bad unions. The work I do involves work in union areas, prevailing wage areas, right-to-work areas, etc. There are problems from time-to-time with each of these areas.

There is no doubt that the union concept has been corrupted in many areas. There is also no doubt that prior to unions, greedy corporate thugs (e.g. Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie, etc.) took advantage of their employees. There was a time when poor, hardworking employees were paid with company script, made to live in company housing paid for by some of their company script, and forced to shop at the company store, where the rest of their company script was used.

Our form of capitalism will only continue to exist when proper checks and balances are in place.

[mgsooner]

I apologize if this strikes you wrong, but that sounds like a problem looking for a solution. Private companies deal with this all of the time. I can speak personally about having to lay my co-workers off during down times. It sucks. It is, however, a reality. Working for the state has been advertised as good because of the benefits and because of the job stability. If I could put a number on the number of people who chose a gov't job over the private one I was offering it would be around 200. Percentage wise, it would be close to 95%.

The reason is simple. Work for my company and you could do great things. Work for the government and we won't make you work and will give you things.

Well, unless the private job you are offering comes along with a very mediocre salary, I'm not sure that your percentage would be correct. Now I'm just speaking about the state of Oklahoma, I can't say what would happen in another state.

From what I have seen from my own eyes, most people are held accountable for their work. Employees are on a 12 month probationary period at the start and can be let go at any time for any reason. When I was a supervisor, I tried to get a very good feel for my new employees by at least the end of the 2nd or 3rd month. If I knew deep down that it wasn't going to work out, we let them go. Once workers get off of probation, things get complicated. We have to follow a very rigit set of Corrective Discipline procedures as permanent employees are protected by Merit Rules. It can be a long, tedious and tiresome process. And when you get to the end, then you have to interact with legal. And let's just say that legal doesn't have a very strong stomach for the job sometimes. They are very wary of of legal retribution from the employee, and perhaps rightfully so. I'm not going to say everything at the state is sunshine and roses. Getting rid of an employee that is not performing up to standard (if they are off of probation) is a frustrating process.

Again I can only really speak for the offices I've worked in, but if anyone really walked through the door and expected to just cruise by with some fat cat government job without having to do any real work they would be shocked. We lose a lot of people before they hit the 3 month mark because they just can't take the pace and stress.

[The Profit]

Don't take it personal mg!
Most of those attacks by the likes of Profit and KC are attacks on a "known quantity" that they think can be titilated by their verbal teasing - like bullies in the school yard. (not you personally)
As a matter of fact, I am even guilty of verbally attacking libs, progressives, union types, etc., when I know that the generalization doesn't fit all.
I am a teacher at the OU level, and I have teachers in the family. Dad and the whole family were union people. So, I have seen both sides, including the union thug who tried to kill my dad.

Most of what you see as posts here are sweeping generalizations meant to get a rise out of the opposition.
But, thanks for the post.




What are you even talking about? I hadn't even posted on this thread with the exception to a simple "why" to the opening thread. I asked the question because I was interested in finding the answer. Any idea of bullying or teasing is just something being created in the shallows of your simple, but strange brain matter. You really need to quit referring to me in your nonsensical posts. I am really not certain what your problem is, but it is obvious that something is upsetting your apple cart. Perhaps it was something you developed in your 30-plus years on the government tit, teat, etc. Whatever it is, please leave me out of your posts. Go play with your silly little childish car and leave me the hell alone. You are weird.

[SCOUT]

Well, unless the private job you are offering comes along with a very mediocre salary, I'm not sure that your percentage would be correct. Now I'm just speaking about the state of Oklahoma, I can't say what would happen in another state.

Allow me to clarify. I employ subject matter experts at the highest levels. Our average salary is well above 6 figures. I don't mention that in any sorting of bragging way, but to rather set the playing field. We pay above market value as a stated business value.

With that said, you made a very common argument of employer vs employee. Let's face it, that is what so much of this conversation is about.

[StoopTroup]

I apologize if this strikes you wrong, but that sounds like a problem looking for a solution. Private companies deal with this all of the time. I can speak personally about having to lay my co-workers off during down times. It sucks. It is, however, a reality. Working for the state has been advertised as good because of the benefits and because of the job stability. If I could put a number on the number of people who chose a gov't job over the private one I was offering it would be around 200. Percentage wise, it would be close to 95%.

The reason is simple. Work for my company and you could do great things. Work for the government and we won't make you work and will give you things.

You could also state work for my company for higher wages and with hard work you can guarantee you'll be the last to get laid off. You also can learn to start your own business or even become a partner someday. You could also work and learn enough from me that in your 30's you could get on with a huge Company that offers more benefits and a pension.

There were many different ways to work your way up the Food chain when I was younger. I know many that had easier roads than others too. Sometimes timing is everything when your working on finding a career. I remember there weren't any guarantees either. Once I got my foot in the door I used my brain and education to better my way into a pensionable decent paying job. There was quite a bit of sacrifice and 40+ hour work weeks with 30+ hours a week added to educate myself. It's a complete insult to me any anyone else that thinks there wasn't any sacrifice to get where we are now. For years I have watched as other people retired and asked that we keep up the hard work so they'll be able to continue being comfortable during their retirement. Now it's nearing a time for many of us Baby Boomers to retire and what's really taking place is a change in thought and the opportunity to prey on these huge pension accounts. Working hard and being successful is to hard when you can raid these pension accounts and convince others you are doing something great for our Country. I compare it to Tea Baggers complaining about how they know how to better spend our tax money and that once in power they will reduce Govt spending. In this case politicians are saying they know how to better use many of our pensions than we the people who have worked for years to receive. What will happen is we will spend it and it will go into our economy. If they get it it will be sliced up into nice summer homes and bonuses for Corporate Bosses. People who work hard in this Country are standing up to him and I don't think they'll give up either. There's a lot on the table right now and the middle class is continuing to become poorer each and everyday.

[MR2-Sooner86]

A couple of things I'd like to point out.

If you're doing a good job you expect more right? What if you're doing a bad job and your job performance isn't too well?

Two-Thirds of Wisconsin Public-School 8th Graders Can’t Read Proficiently—Despite Highest Per Pupil Spending in Midwest (http://cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g)

Then we have the WISCONSIN TEACHER'S UNION PRESIDENT who admits it's alright to lie. He is asked whether he agrees or not if it's right to write fake doctor's notes and he never answers the question. He just gives talking points and dances around the issue. Sounds like he's for it to me.

How can you tell your children not to lie when their teacher commits fraud?

mOWa3GpJfwU

Also, the teachers say they're "doing it for the children" but anybody with half a brain can see that's not true. To hammers this home a little more how about I bring up a quote by Albert Shanker? In case you don't know he was President of the United Federation of Teachers from 1964 to 1984 as well as President of the American Federation of Teachers from 1974 to 1997.


"When school children start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children."

Finally, I have a question for you people with children.

http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/onedown.jpg
http://www.newsrealblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/wi-hitler2.jpg

Is THIS who you want to trust the future of your children's education with? Do you really trust a bunch of greedy, selfish, two-faced, double crossing, overpaid, under-educated, screaming, whining, lying, fraudulent, hypocritical, sleaze-ball teacher's union members?

[Sooner5030]

By Government Workers I'm guessing you are including all of them including military?

green suiters are not unionized and they have never went on strike. apples....oranges.....the only similarity is the defined contribution plan.

[C&CDean]

If some of y'all would use paragraphs I might actually read your posts.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

^

[CrimsonCream]

Public worker unions are simply a way to force the tax-payer to fund the Democratic party.

Yes.

This is why Obama's sphincter muscles are in lock down. You defeat the Unions and you defeat Obama inasmuch as the Unions are his biggest contributors.

You ever wonder why nobody from the Obama Administration will account for the $1 trillion Stimulus? They spent it on Union kick backs, bribes, payoffs, etc.

Remember Obama giving the Unions a 'wavier" on ObamaCare? Be there no doubt that Obama and the Unions are "tonguing" one another.

Wonder how the corrupt Loon media would cover the story if it were the Republicans that ran away to avoid their Oath of representation of the people?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

when union dues are spent to support political candidates.

This is why they want card check and do not want states to require that members check they approve dues to political fundraising...

[delhalew]

This is why they want card check and do not want states to require that members check they approve dues to political fundraising...

Oh yeah. They went all kinds of crazy over card check. No choice. Total domination of the worker is what they need to continue aiding in street level violence and voter fraud.

[sappstuf]

Public worker unions are simply a way to force the tax-payer to fund the Democratic party.

That is what President Kennedy had in mind when he signed Executive Order 10988 in 1962 that allowed federal employees to unionize.

Sounds like that mistake could be resolved with another executive order...

[Aldebaran]

I fail to see how this is substantively different than working for a corporation that uses the largesse of your efforts to support political candidates except that unions are more likely to be concerned with issues of people rather than corporate power.

If you don't like being in a union, you can always choose a career that doesn't involve one. If you don't like who a corporation supports politically, you can always choose another job as well.

But it is asinine to think a group is going to put money into a political outcome that isn't advantageous to their self interest. And if they didn't try, there would be zero point of them having an organization or working to satisfy their goals. You're just hostile to the particular influence these groups are peddaling in.

It's not like they created the playing field. They are just trying to survive on it.

[CrimsonCream]

I fail to see how this is substantively different than working for a corporation that uses the largesse of your efforts to support political candidates except that unions are more likely to be concerned with issues of people rather than corporate power.

Corporations don't take mandatory dues from your paychecks.

[Aldebaran]

They don't have to. They just skim it off the top.

On Edit: That is about as mandatory as it gets by the way.

[Jammin']

I fail to see how this is substantively different than working for a corporation that uses the largesse of your efforts to support political candidates except that unions are more likely to be concerned with issues of people rather than corporate power.

If you don't like being in a union, you can always choose a career that doesn't involve one. If you don't like who a corporation supports politically, you can always choose another job as well.

But it is asinine to think a group is going to put money into a political outcome that isn't advantageous to their self interest. And if they didn't try, there would be zero point of them having an organization or working to satisfy their goals. You're just hostile to the particular influence these groups are peddaling in.

It's not like they created the playing field. They are just trying to survive on it.

Damn it Ald, stop making sense when we are trying to crucify unions and the democrats that support them.

[TitoMorelli]

So please enlighten all of us neanderthals. Exactly how does a corporation "skim it off the top" of the salaries on which it and its employees have agreed.

[The Profit]

Corporations don't take mandatory dues from your paychecks.




Oh really?

[Caboose]

They don't have to. They just skim it off the top.

On Edit: That is about as mandatory as it gets by the way.

FAIL

[Aldebaran]

That's like, your opinion, man.

[Caboose]

Oh really?

Yes really. Looking at my pay stub now.

[NormanPride]

Bunch of butthurt union members in here. If you work hard, that's fine. All it means is that you're not a part of the big reason that people hate unions, though.

And Corporations pay you a salary up front and don't take money from it. Whatever they don't pay you is theirs to play with.

[Caboose]

That's like, your opinion, man.

It isnt a matter of opinion, dipsh!t. You keep spouting off inaccurate information and claiming it is fact, per your usual.

It isn't "opinion" that my employer doesn't "skim off the top" of my salary to collect dues which are in turn donated to political candidates. It is verifiable fact that they do not.

Words. They have meanings. Learn how to use them without sounding like a retard.

[KABOOKIE]

They just skim it off the top. Hah. Some of you geniuses really believe the big angry union reps when they fly in and give you the annual "the company hates you" speech.

I find it funny that you guys believe the union’s intentions are as pure as a Vermont snowfall but, corporations are only in it for them. Yeah, when the corporation makes more, the workers get more jobs, salaries, bonuses etc… When the union makes more it’s bosses get fat, rich and annoying and the jobs go to Mexico.

[Aldebaran]

They took our jerbs!

[The Profit]

Yes really. Looking at my pay stub now.




If you work for a corporation, the paycheck you are looking at might be a tad larger if your CEO would give you some of the money he is donating to PACs and other lobbying groups.

[NormanPride]

If you work for a corporation, the paycheck you are looking at might be a tad larger if your CEO would give you some of the money he is donating to PACs and other lobbying groups.

But he's not. And we signed a contract saying this is what we get. The rest is his, since it's his damn company. He's not scamming us out of anything because we agreed to the amount we're being paid.

[Aldebaran]

I'm sure it's pure coincidence that the decline in unions over the past decades is inversely proportional to the growth in financial inequality in this country...

And morons joke about how cushy american workers have it now like there is nothing to hold onto... When unions are killed, and you have to wake your 8 year old on Saturday to get them ready for their shift at the factory, at least you can comfort yourself with the solace that the company isn't taking a cut out of your company store script to pay for their politics.

[Jammin']

The difference is that it is taxpayer money that is funneled through unions in order to support union friendly candidates(mostly democrats).

Private companies support candidates out of their own profits.

Here is a great article on the subject. http://patriotpost.us/opinion/mona-charen/2011/02/22/what-madison-revealed-teachers-as-rent-seekers/

And those profits came from....?

Here's an example: BP gave political groups almost 5 million over the last few years to help them fight against bills/laws/etc they don't agree with. Where did that money come from?

It may not be called "taxes" but an increase in the price of oil in order for BP to be able to weld a stronger pull politically certainly comes directly out of our all of our pockets. That includes the people that work there as well as the rest of us. So which is worse?

[Caboose]

If you work for a corporation, the paycheck you are looking at might be a tad larger if your CEO would give you some of the money he is donating to PACs and other lobbying groups.

What do I care what the CEO does with money that isnt mine?
I agreed to work for X amount per year, and my stubs showed that I get X amount per year. Try explaining again how my employer is taking money out of my check against my will to donate to PACs and lobbying groups. This time try thinking about it in terms of the real world instead of your imaginary hypothetical world.

[StoopTroup]

I fail to see how this is substantively different than working for a corporation that uses the largesse of your efforts to support political candidates except that unions are more likely to be concerned with issues of people rather than corporate power.

If you don't like being in a union, you can always choose a career that doesn't involve one. If you don't like who a corporation supports politically, you can always choose another job as well.

But it is asinine to think a group is going to put money into a political outcome that isn't advantageous to their self interest. And if they didn't try, there would be zero point of them having an organization or working to satisfy their goals. You're just hostile to the particular influence these groups are peddaling in.

It's not like they created the playing field. They are just trying to survive on it.
Well said and it really addresses the original premise of this thread. Yeah there's something wrong....something has been wrong for decades. Now that things are the way they are some people grasp for straws, some try to blame other people, some blame who was in charge, some blame who is in charge. Hopefully someone appears to make sense of righting these ships. What usually happens is negotiation which is what some folks are evidently not willing to do. One thing is for sure...by the time the next election comes around...someone in office will start to right the Wisconsin Ship. It's good that it's a peaceful event so far but it seem there are unsavory folks on both sides pushing to try and make something happen. Talk about teaching children a lesson. One of the best Government classes in America is taking place right now.

[sappstuf]

I actually have money taken out of my paycheck that I have no control of and don't remember agreeing to. 50 cents every month is taken out of my paycheck and given to the Armed Forces Retirement Home. It comes out of every enlisted person's paycheck without exception.

After 17 years of that, I could have taken my wife out to a nice steak diner... :(.... ;)

[KABOOKIE]

I'm sure it's pure coincidence that the decline in unions over the past decades is inversely proportional to the growth in financial inequality in this country...

And morons joke about how cushy american workers have it now like there is nothing to hold onto... When unions are killed, and you have to wake your 8 year old on Saturday to get them ready for their shift at the factory, at least you can comfort yourself with the solace that the company isn't taking a cut out of your company store script to pay for their politics.

You need a good education in federal labor laws.

[CrimsonCream]

But he's not. And we signed a contract saying this is what we get. The rest is his, since it's his damn company. He's not scamming us out of anything because we agreed to the amount we're being paid.

With some of these people it's just like whizzing in the wind. They don't care to understand and can only espouse Loon talking points.

These are the same people that cannot find one fault with Obama but every single one with the Republicans. There is no middle ground or rationale with them.

If it were not for the corrupt, lying a$$ kissing media then the Democratic Party would cease to exist.

[TitoMorelli]

And those profits came from....?

Here's an example: BP gave political groups almost 5 million over the last few years to help them fight against bills/laws/etc they don't agree with. Where did that money come from?

It may not be called "taxes" but an increase in the price of oil in order for BP to be able to weld a stronger pull politically certainly comes directly out of our all of our pockets. That includes the people that work there as well as the rest of us. So which is worse?

Has anyone forced you over the last several years to buy BP gasoline or to contribute to their favored political groups?

Or do you actually think that BP or other companies arbitrarily raised their prices just so that consumers would have to foot the bill for their political causes?

[PDXsooner]

unions are absolutely a worthless scam in today's time. they rob from the people they claim to protect.

This was the 5th post in this thread, and this is where it went wrong. Yes, it would have gone wrong anyway, but I've identified it. This is where it went from a potential mature discussion to incendiary and inflammatory.

[StoopTroup]

I actually have money taken out of my paycheck that I have no control of and don't remember agreeing to. 50 cents every month is taken out of my paycheck and given to the Armed Forces Retirement Home. It comes out of every enlisted person's paycheck without exception.

After 17 years of that, I could have taken my wife out to a nice steak diner... :(.... ;)

You wrote that gift off your taxes I hope. Maybe one day you'll get it back in meatloaf dinners when they put you in the Home.

[delhalew]

The relationship with a company you work for is simple. Company needs labor, you sell them yours. Anything else said company is involved in is neither your business nor your problem.

When you work in a non right to work environment, in many cases you have employment at the behest of the union. You pay dues directly to them, which they use to undermine your political philosophy if you happen to be conservative or even moderate.

[KABOOKIE]

This was the 5th post in this thread, and this is where it went wrong. Yes, it would have gone wrong anyway, but I've identified it. This is where it went from a potential mature discussion to incendiary and inflammatory.

Go file a grievance.

[delhalew]

If you work for a corporation, the paycheck you are looking at might be a tad larger if your CEO would give you some of the money he is donating to PACs and other lobbying groups.

Cripes. Your wage is an agreed upon contact dictated by the labor market. In the private sector feeling and ancillary motives are irrelevant.

Unions are another example of the social engineering that plagues this country, and keeps us from being as competive as we should be.

We need balance. That's all. No one is saying unions need to disappear. The simply need to be responsible and realistic, pr they CAN go the **** away.

[47straight]

I'm all for a performance based pay system. Hell, I would love it. I have received the highest performance rating you can get on every single review I have ever gotten. You know what that gets me as far as a raise? Zero. I only get a raise when 1)I get promoted, or 2)the legislature votes to give ALL state employees a raise. I'm not trying to whine, I'm just telling you that's how it is. I would love for my performance ratings to actually mean something when it comes to compensation.

I think you're proving the point/agreeing with a lot of the folks you think you're disagreeing with. I think that they'd also love for your performance ratings to lead to you getting more pay.

[sappstuf]

You wrote that gift off your taxes I hope. Maybe one day you'll get it back in meatloaf dinners when they put you in the Home.

There are only two homes.. One in the DC area and the other in Gulfport MS. If I end up in either, something has gone very very wrong with my post military career plans.

[Caboose]

I'm sure it's pure coincidence that the decline in unions over the past decades is inversely proportional to the growth in financial inequality in this country...

And morons joke about how cushy american workers have it now like there is nothing to hold onto... When unions are killed, and you have to wake your 8 year old on Saturday to get them ready for their shift at the factory, at least you can comfort yourself with the solace that the company isn't taking a cut out of your company store script to pay for their politics.

Predictable. Got owned on your ignorant "skimming off the top" claim so you are now going to the boogeyman card.
"If you don't let unions run roughshod over the entire nation well, your 8 year old is going to be working in a factory!"

Let me guess, after that stupid rhetoric is shot all to hell you are going come back and call us all racists and bigots, right?

[Jammin']

Has anyone forced you over the last several years to buy BP gasoline or to contribute to their favored political groups?

Or do you actually think that BP or other companies arbitrarily raised their prices just so that consumers would have to foot the bill for their political causes?

I think I used BP as an example. Every major/mid-major company does this. It's not a secret, it's documented all over the place. So it's going to be hard to buy anything if I try your method of not buying anything from a company that does this. And yes, I do believe that when a company spends millions of dollars (our dollars) that it is accounted for ahead of time and the price of items reflect that.

Or do you actually think that companies "Hope" for the ability to be able to weld political power? (You think any CEO has uttered anything like this: "Man, I hope we make enough this year to be able to spend an extra few million to make sure we get what we want in the US")

[JohnnyMack]

I think there's an amusing bit of hypocrisy coming from the far right as it relates to allowing unions to exist and retain their collective bargaining rights. The same far right that clamors for freedom and individual liberty can't stand that an individual would choose to join a union. That is a total aside, but amusing nonetheless.

I'm a big proponent of right to work. I don't think union membership should be mandatory, but I also don't think that unions should be stripped of all their power/leverage either. The two most untrustworthy entities in this country are the government and the corporation. Given the chance, either one of them will **** you over. Corporations are out to protect their best interest, not that of their employees or even the customers they serve. Regulation is a necessary evil that exists because individuals can't control themselves from exploiting others. If you don't think that's true and you think that corporations always act in a just and virtuous manner, you're not too bright. From the dastardly deeds of Goldman Sachs et al over the last few years to the Chicago Stockyards more than a century ago, corporations have proven that they simply can't contain steer clear of greed.

Now this isn't to say that I think unions are a bastion of purity because over the years the original intent of unionization has been bastardized, leading to unsustainable expenses piling up. Unions have certainly been a mitigating factor in the economic slowdown we've witnessed in the manufacturing industries over the past decades. Part of the reason jobs are shifted overseas, the most important reason, is that it costs less. The costs have been driven up, in part, by the unions.

There has to be a balance somewhere, but I just don't think eliminating unions is the way to do it. Unions have to give more, and I think they're starting to understand that, but let's not kid ourselves and think that the eradication of the union would be the salve this problem needs.

[47straight]

If you don't like being in a union, you can always choose a career that doesn't involve one. If you don't like who a corporation supports politically, you can always choose another job as well.



The difference is that I could always go work for another corporation, partnership, sole proprietor that doesn't skim off the top. But I could remain in the same profession.

But if I don't want to be in a union, according to you I'm not allowed to even be in the profession. And that's some bull****.

[dwarthog]

You need a good education in federal labor laws.

Geez man, your going to ruin folks rhetoric by posting up stuff like this. ;)

[NormanPride]

I feel bad for all the good union workers. If they just had the opportunity to make what they deserve at the expense of all the idiots that the union protects.

[C&CDean]

90% of NYC was built by mob-controlled union labor. Unions = the mob.

They're extortionists, they protect the inferior worker, and they rob and rape the company owners. There was a time and place for unions, however, that time and place has long-since passed. My advice to union members is this:

Cross the fence and get into management. When I was in the union my raises/salary/benefits/etc. were dictated by the union. When I got into management, I began getting raises/better salary/etc. based on merit.

If unions would dump the whole seniority thing and go to a "senior qualified" deal, quit filing worthless grievences for the same worthless employees who should have been fired years ago, and make their leadership actually work on the line like the rank and file I'd still support them. Instead, they spend their time hanging at the union hall drinking coffee and eating donuts while they dream up new ways to **** management and hoodwink their members.

Anyhow, carry on.

[TitoMorelli]

I think I used BP as an example. Every major/mid-major company does this. It's not a secret, it's documented all over the place. So it's going to be hard to buy anything if I try your method of not buying anything from a company that does this. And yes, I do believe that when a company spends millions of dollars (our dollars) that it is accounted for ahead of time and the price of items reflect that.

Or do you actually think that companies "Hope" for the ability to be able to weld political power? (You think any CEO has uttered anything like this: "Man, I hope we make enough this year to be able to spend an extra few million to make sure we get what we want in the US")

Again, are you forced to purchase goods from companies who contribute to political causes with which you may disagree? People are boycotting corporations and their goods all the time these days. But if you work in a union-dominated profession and must pay dues in order to earn a living in that vocation, you don't have the luxury of boycotting or refusing. You either sink or swim.

[MamaMia]

The difference is that it is taxpayer money that is funneled through unions in order to support union friendly candidates(mostly democrats).

Private companies support candidates out of their own profits.

Here is a great article on the subject. http://patriotpost.us/opinion/mona-charen/2011/02/22/what-madison-revealed-teachers-as-rent-seekers/

Great read. Thanks

[NormanPride]

90% of NYC was built by mob-controlled union labor. Unions = the mob.

They're extortionists, they protect the inferior worker, and they rob and rape the company owners. There was a time and place for unions, however, that time and place has long-since passed. My advice to union members is this:

Cross the fence and get into management. When I was in the union my raises/salary/benefits/etc. were dictated by the union. When I got into management, I began getting raises/better salary/etc. based on merit.

If unions would dump the whole seniority thing and go to a "senior qualified" deal, quit filing worthless grievences for the same worthless employees who should have been fired years ago, and make their leadership actually work on the line like the rank and file I'd still support them. Instead, they spend their time hanging at the union hall drinking coffee and eating donuts while they dream up new ways to **** management and hoodwink their members.

Anyhow, carry on.

So, they're like every other leadership?

I know SF.com has a mod board where there are free donuts and the sponsor's gifts flow like water... And I just bet all you elites sit around all day and plot how to start more political threads on the SO and blame it on the peoples. :D

[Jammin']

Again, are you forced to purchase goods from companies who contribute to political causes with which you may disagree? People are boycotting corporations and their goods all the time these days. But if you work in a union-dominated profession and must pay dues in order to earn a living in that vocation, you don't have the luxury of boycotting or refusing. You either sink or swim.

So corporations increasing prices of goods/services in order to better coerce our political system to do what the corporation wants is okay with you?

And you see no connection between the corp spending millions of dollars on these activities and the bottom line of their workers pay check?

I do agree that I can boycott them and I agree that in general, unions suck. I'm saying unions and corporations aren't that different in the area of spending dollars for lobbying/political coercion. (which is what I believed this thread to be more directly about?)

[CrimsonCream]

Predictable. Got owned on your ignorant "skimming off the top" claim so you are now going to the boogeyman card.
"If you don't let unions run roughshod over the entire nation well, your 8 year old is going to be working in a factory!"

Let me guess, after that stupid rhetoric is shot all to hell you are going come back and call us all racists and bigots, right?

It is predictable.

First, the Loons try to scare the Public by saying if such and such bill is not passed then police and firemen will be laid off. Then they say if such and such bill is not passed then the cost actually will be much higher.

Lastly, the Loons will result in name calling preferably by calling someone a racist.

Ever notice how if the Right engages in the same Loon tactics then the Loons cry foul or how it's unfair? Unfortunately, these are the only tactics that Loons understand. Stand up, smack them in the mouth and they'll slink away to Illinois.

Chris Wallace once said of the Loons that they are "the biggest crybabies in town."

[TitoMorelli]

So corporations increasing prices of goods/services in order to better coerce our political system to do what the corporation wants is okay with you?

And you see no connection between the corp spending millions of dollars on these activities and the bottom line of their workers pay check?

I do agree that I can boycott them and I agree that in general, unions suck. I'm saying unions and corporations aren't that different in the area of spending dollars for lobbying/political coercion. (which is what I believed this thread to be more directly about?)

No it's not necessarily ok with me, but at least I have the choice of supporting or not supporting their efforts with my spending. And if workers in a non-union environment wish to work for a corporation that pays more in salary/benefits or helps them to sleep better at night, then they have every right to pursue that employment. They aren't forced to pony up pay a substantial amount of their salary just for the right to have a job.

If I agree to pay you $25.00 to mow my lawn, is it legitimate for you to beef that because I gave $200 to a political candidate that you don't like, that I'm robbing you of income in order to coerce the political system? If on the other hand you wish to mow lawns and find that you must pay a $20 fee to the lawn mowers association (who makes contributions to their chosen candidates), or you could be fined for mowing without being an association member, is that really the same?

And I'd be willing to bet that the hypothetical increase in $$ that an individual employee would gain if corporate political contributions were stopped is far less than the amount that is taken out of an individual worker's paycheck by unions.

[3rdgensooner]

It is predictable.

First, the Loons try to scare the Public by saying if such and such bill is not passed then police and firemen will be laid off. Then they say if such and such bill is not passed then the cost actually will be much higher.

Lastly, the Loons will result in name calling preferably by calling someone a racist.

Ever notice how if the Right engages in the same Loon tactics then the Loons cry foul or how it's unfair? Unfortunately, these are the only tactics that Loons understand. Stand up, smack them in the mouth and they'll slink away to Illinois.

Chris Wallace once said of the Loons that they are "the biggest crybabies in town."Cool story bro.

Tell us another. *leans in to listen*

[NormanPride]

http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp219/SantaKhala/SuperCoolStoryBro.png

[soonercruiser]

It is predictable.

First, the Loons try to scare the Public by saying if such and such bill is not passed then police and firemen will be laid off. Then they say if such and such bill is not passed then the cost actually will be much higher.

Lastly, the Loons will result in name calling preferably by calling someone a racist.

Ever notice how if the Right engages in the same Loon tactics then the Loons cry foul or how it's unfair? Unfortunately, these are the only tactics that Loons understand. Stand up, smack them in the mouth and they'll slink away to Illinois.

Chris Wallace once said of the Loons that they are "the biggest crybabies in town."

Exactly!!!!

http://members.cox.net/franklipsinic/Political/not%20facism.jpg

[StoopTroup]

Cripes. Your wage is an agreed upon contact dictated by the labor market. In the private sector feeling and ancillary motives are irrelevant.

Unions are another example of the social engineering that plagues this country, and keeps us from being as competive as we should be.

We need balance. That's all. No one is saying unions need to disappear. The simply need to be responsible and realistic, pr they CAN go the **** away.

We can have balance but taking away collective bargaining isn't balance. As far as I can tell the Teachers and the Hollywood Script Writers were all peaceful people who stuck to their principles and worked to help find balance. The Gov of Wisconsin started this when he introduced legislation and tried to get a quick "Here Here" on the bill. The Teachers and some of the Legislators came down to talk to him and he's been avoiding them ever since. It's his way or the highway. He's going to have to negotiate. The Teachers are going to win this. Everyday he goes on with his "My Way" Savior of Wisconsin act, it gets worse for him. The kids who are watching this will one day be voters there and I'm betting he's made a good portion of them enemies. Kids can see Right and Wrong better than adults and later they become brutal in the attitudes that were set earlier in their lives. In the end this won't bode well for the Republican Party.

[CrimsonCream]

Everyday he goes on with his "My Way" Savior of Wisconsin act, it gets worse for him. The kids who are watching this will one day be voters there and I'm betting he's made a good portion of them enemies. Kids can see Right and Wrong better than adults and later they become brutal in the attitudes that were set earlier in their lives. In the end this won't bode well for the Republican Party.

Kind of like ObamaCare, the Stimulus, Bailouts, etc?

Only Walker is not using bribes, kickbacks, payoffs, etc., like Obama, Reid and Pelosi did.

[soonercruiser]

We can have balance but taking away collective bargaining isn't balance. As far as I can tell the Teachers and the Hollywood Script Writers were all peaceful people who stuck to their principles and worked to help find balance. The Gov of Wisconsin started this when he introduced legislation and tried to get a quick "Here Here" on the bill. The Teachers and some of the Legislators came down to talk to him and he's been avoiding them ever since. It's his way or the highway. He's going to have to negotiate. The Teachers are going to win this. Everyday he goes on with his "My Way" Savior of Wisconsin act, it gets worse for him. The kids who are watching this will one day be voters there and I'm betting he's made a good portion of them enemies. Kids can see Right and Wrong better than adults and later they become brutal in the attitudes that were set earlier in their lives. In the end this won't bode well for the Republican Party.

Perhaps we could quote our venerable President?
"You lost! Get over it!"

[delhalew]

We can have balance but taking away collective bargaining isn't balance. As far as I can tell the Teachers and the Hollywood Script Writers were all peaceful people who stuck to their principles and worked to help find balance. The Gov of Wisconsin started this when he introduced legislation and tried to get a quick "Here Here" on the bill. The Teachers and some of the Legislators came down to talk to him and he's been avoiding them ever since. It's his way or the highway. He's going to have to negotiate. The Teachers are going to win this. Everyday he goes on with his "My Way" Savior of Wisconsin act, it gets worse for him. The kids who are watching this will one day be voters there and I'm betting he's made a good portion of them enemies. Kids can see Right and Wrong better than adults and later they become brutal in the attitudes that were set earlier in their lives. In the end this won't bode well for the Republican Party.

I am willing to lay odds that children who have been taught decency and accountability, view the unions as thugs and the Dems on the lamb as spineless hypocrites.

[JohnnyMack]

I am willing to lay odds that children who have been taught decency and accountability, view the unions as thugs and the Dems on the lamb as spineless hypocrites.

Again, I know we covered this already, but Conservatives are the bastion of purity and justice. They're like the Serra Angel of politics.

[AlboSooner]

I still think the Hitler/Fascist/Stalin card damages your credibility more than it helps it. It undermines any chance at making a good point.

[Aldebaran]

Republicans wait until they are married.

[delhalew]

Again, I know we covered this already, but Conservatives are the bastion of purity and justice. They're like the Serra Angel of politics.

You need to focus. You can do it.

My response to Stoop is regarding the specific behaviors being demonstrated in Wisky RIGHT NOW. This is not time for the "I'm rubber, your glue" defense.

I would, however, like to amend my statement to Stoop.

Governor Walker looks weak. Depending on how he handles this, he can make himself and his party look weaker.

Republicans have history of making hard decisions,but being to scared politically to sell it with the hard truth. The governor exempted some unions from his bill. He is only partially removing collective bargaining. If he had balls, he would argue what we know to be true. Collective bargaining in the public sector hamstrings states and municipalities, keeping true reforms from happening. Until he nuts up and commits fully, he is at a disadvantage.

Trust that those Dems are fully commited to hijacking the process.

[JohnnyMack]

You need to focus. You can do it.

My response to Stoop is regarding the specific behaviors being demonstrated in Wisky RIGHT NOW. This is not time for the "I'm rubber, your glue" defense.

I would, however, like to amend my statement to Stoop.

Governor Walker looks weak. Depending on how he handles this, he can make himself and his party look weaker.

Republicans have history of making hard decisions,but being to scared politically to sell it with the hard truth. The governor exempted some unions from his bill. He is only partially removing collective bargaining. If he had balls, he would argue what we no to be true. Collective bargaining in the public sector hamstrings states and municipalities, keeping true reforms from happening. Until he nuts up and commits fully, he is at a disadvantage.

Trust that those Dems are fully commited to hijacking the process.

I would totally pwn you in Magic.

[delhalew]

I would totally pwn you in Magic.

Nay. I at one time constructed three decks that were virtually unbeatable by minds far greater than yours.

[The Profit]

Perhaps we could quote our venerable President?
"You lost! Get over it!"



Or, our most recent president. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, uh, uh, uh, shame on uh, uh, uh. Well don't fool me again."

[dwarthog]

You need to focus. You can do it.

My response to Stoop is regarding the specific behaviors being demonstrated in Wisky RIGHT NOW. This is not time for the "I'm rubber, your glue" defense.

I would, however, like to amend my statement to Stoop.

Governor Walker looks weak. Depending on how he handles this, he can make himself and his party look weaker.

Republicans have history of making hard decisions,but being to scared politically to sell it with the hard truth. The governor exempted some unions from his bill. He is only partially removing collective bargaining. If he had balls, he would argue what we know to be true. Collective bargaining in the public sector hamstrings states and municipalities, keeping true reforms from happening. Until he nuts up and commits fully, he is at a disadvantage.

Trust that those Dems are fully commited to hijacking the process.

Hear hear, well said!

[soonerscuba]

Republicans have history of making hard decisionsHeh, this is totally evidenced by deficit data from the last 30 years. Republican legislation tends to lay out the goodies to their pet programs and pay for them via debt. Democrats tend to lay out the goodies to their pet programs, attempt to fund them, fail, and then pay for them via debt. I was, and still am in favor of Republicans having control of the Congress because it's literally the only time ever spending gets a dent. Eventually the simple math will bear out that austerity is the future, now that will be true leadership.

[delhalew]

Heh, this is totally evidenced by deficit data from the last 30 years. Republican legislation tends to lay out the goodies to their pet programs and pay for them via debt. Democrats tend to lay out the goodies to their pet programs, attempt to fund them, fail, and then pay for them via debt. I was, and still am in favor of Republicans having control of the Congress because it's literally the only time ever spending gets a dent. Eventually the simple math will bear out that austerity is the future, now that will be true leadership.

Weak. I'll refrain from grabbing half of one your sentences, and having an imaginary argument.

Don't take that to mean I disagree wih you. I just don't like when people do that.

[StoopTroup]

I am sure that your assessment of your own contribution over time is completely unbiased.

Look, Corporations are in it to make money. A by-product of that motivation is job creation. It does NOT work the other way around. Period.

Unions view the world through the lens that you appear to. Workers are the reason there is a company. In certain aspects, that is indeed the case. Financially, it is not. The adage that you can't draw blood from a turnip comes to mind. I know you, and other union workers, want more money, better benefits, etc. but without more income that isn't possible.

To your point that they are profitable now...Do you think that they are in that financial state BECAUSE of the labor decisions they have made over the years?

I believe they used to be in the business of making money. When I started they did audits to account for every penny. After 20 years and a ton of Computer Modeling and Flow Charting they have really gone into a downward marketing slope that operates on micro-management and small adjustments. They do small test areas to see if it will possibly work on a large scale. They have long thrown out the "Treat it like you own it" or the Work Smarter not Harder" attitudes of the 80's and early '90's. They are expanding...they are compartmentalizing. Control of the Monster they created is only able to be done by throwing the few a bone while the larger groups say....''what about ours?''. They tell Workers a bunch of bull**** in order to take huge bonuses for keeping it all at bay. They are waiting for Baby Boomers who helped them build these Monsters to die off so they can later chop up their Monster into nice retirement packages.

That's one scenario.

The thing they aren't doing is investing in their Business and in many cases either cannabilizing their own assets or buying up Competitors cheap and streamlining what they have into an even bigger more unorganized Monster. They lack any new ideas. They have in many cases, Workers over a barrel. They have had it their way for over a decade and instead of really capitalizing and making companies that people are proud to work for....they have places that people get paychecks and are glad they just have a job.

The day you get hired is when you are supposed to be glad you have a job....once you've been there for 2-3 decades...you're supposed to be proud of what you helped create.

I realize that there are always adjustments that need to go on during the life of a business and it's sad when some begin to become a dinosaur, but huge Corporations don't die when the Founder dies they make adjustments and re-organize their leadership. That leadership then has choices. Founders build Corporations and good Leaders take up where they left off. Bad Leaders point blame and demand change.

Our Country is changing. Our Country has made strides that no other Country in the History of the world has been able to accomplish. That doesn't mean we've peaked, it means we are slowing down and the rest of the World is catching up. The fact that they are catching up seemingly scares the **** out of everyone. That should create opportunity. JFK told us "You have nothing to fear but fear itself". To me....since 9-11 it seems that people have been fed a huge dose of small panic attacks and pundits who point fingers of blame. When We the People suddenly stand up and say..."We aren't Scared", we're told it's a communist attack or a bunch of Union Goons. The past of our Country is used to try and disperse the folks who believe that we can all overcome our problems.

I prefer to believe.....that..."We shall overcome".

When pushed into a corner Americans have always answered the call and have always rose to the occassion of helping to overcome whatever the threat. Some seem to have lost faith in Americans....I think it's a huge wake up call and before its all over....I'd have to say that it was the "Tea Party" that seemingly has inspired the wake up call.