Sooners' workouts result in violations

[SoCal]

Sorry if this is a repost.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6148972

NORMAN, Okla. -- Oklahoma's football team has been required to give players a week off from athletic training during the offseason after reporting a series of secondary NCAA rules violations.

The Sooners reported to the NCAA that four assistant coaches had improperly questioned players about their lack of participation in voluntary offseason workouts, and that some players had been working out more than the allowed eight hours per week.


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The violations were included in documents released to The Associated Press on Tuesday following an open records request.

According to a letter sent to NCAA director of secondary enforcement Chris Strobel, the university started an investigation after a player refused to sign a weekly practice log and then provided Oklahoma's compliance director with a recording of defensive backs coach Willie Martinez asking why he had missed a voluntary workout.

The investigation found that receivers coach Jay Norvell and offensive line coach James Patton also discussed attendance at the workouts with players, and defensive tackles coach Jackie Shipp received reports from the strength staff on who was participating.

Oklahoma also informed the NCAA that secondary violations occurred when football players went through Pilates sessions in addition to their offseason workouts, when strength coaches observed players' independent agility training and when seven players were required to repeat a conditioning drill. All three resulted the players going over the NCAA's eight-hour weekly limit on guided offseason workouts.

Other violations included a handful of self-reported impermissible text messages and phone calls by assistant coaches to recruits and their fathers, and the team's website posting links to recruiting websites on signing day last year.

The men's basketball team, which was on NCAA probation until May and is again being investigated, also reported secondary violations resulting from two assistant coaches placing two impermissible recruiting calls apiece and three violations related to official visits by prospects.

[Leroy Lizard]

Gotta know the rules. Gotta obey them.

[Dwight]

Oh well. More training for next year.

[SoonerDan74012]

Whoever the player was that did the recording is going to be in some trouble. :D

[Leroy Lizard]

Whoever the player was that did the recording is going to be in some trouble. :D

Not if OU the coaching staff knows what's good for it.

[oudavid1]

Whoever the player was that did the recording is going to be in some trouble. :D

http://i51.tinypic.com/1sy5u1.png

"I ordered the code red"

[Okrunman]

According to a letter sent to NCAA director of secondary enforcement Chris Strobel, the university started an investigation after a player refused to sign a weekly practice log and then provided Oklahoma's compliance director with a recording of defensive backs coach Willie Martinez asking why he had missed a voluntary workout.

Recording a coach and ratting him out can't be good for team chemistry.

[NMSooner'80]

This will probably be big news with various OU-hating media types in Texas and in Payne County, Oklahoma.

[setem]

The player who recorded the **** is a punk and needs to get the damn boot asap! That is complete horse ****!

[Leroy Lizard]

According to a letter sent to NCAA director of secondary enforcement Chris Strobel, the university started an investigation after a player refused to sign a weekly practice log and then provided Oklahoma's compliance director with a recording of defensive backs coach Willie Martinez asking why he had missed a voluntary workout.

Recording a coach and ratting him out can't be good for team chemistry.

Player absolutely did the right thing. He didn't call the NCAA; he went to the compliance director, who MUST know what is going on at all times. In turn, the compliance director initiated an investigation.

This is exactly what the NCAA wants institutions doing when problems arise. The coaches are at fault here, not the player.

[sooner59]

Nonetheless, I doubt that player sees the field much this year. If I were his teammate, he would be dead to me. Anybody who is bitching about getting in shape for a title run needs to be on a different team.

[SoonerMom2]

Nonetheless, I doubt that player sees the field much this year. If I were his teammate, he would be dead to me. Anybody who is bitching about getting in shape for a title run needs to be on a different team.

Coaches won't have to do a thing -- players will take care of this. Recording a coach is not something most people would condone.

[SoonerDan74012]

Coaches won't have to do a thing -- players will take care of this. Recording a coach is not something most people would condone.

Only if it was a play for play scheme. :D

[Leroy Lizard]

Nonetheless, I doubt that player sees the field much this year. If I were his teammate, he would be dead to me. Anybody who is bitching about getting in shape for a title run needs to be on a different team.

I'm not sure why he didn't go to practice. Maybe he had a good reason. But one thing is for sure in the NCAA's eyes: You can't ask players why they missed a voluntary workout.

The coaching staff needs to understand the concept of voluntary.

And under no circumstances should the coaching staff try to extract any sort of revenge on the player. He gets as much playing time as he would normally. After all, he only did what he was told to do.

[TahoeSOONER]

Tough position for the player but recording a coach is not the way to handle it, at least from this outsiders perspective. You never know what pressures these kids get put on during offseason workouts but foundations for championships are built there. Martinez being a DB coach that would mean someone from the secondary is the player who came forward? Just a guess on my part really.

[sooner59]

Speaking from experience, "voluntary" in football means "if you want to play its mandatory". Coaches know who shows up. They play the people that bust their *** and want to be out there. Maybe this person had a solid excuse. If he did, the coach would likely understand and wash his hands of it. Sounds like this person didn't have an excuse, didn't like what the coach had to say, and got p***ed off and reported it. Is it what he was supposed to do by NCAA regulations? Yes. Is it something a person who wanted to win a title/play a lot/be an integral part of the team would do? No. Either the coaches are dickheads and we should be ashamed that they represent OU, or this person really needs to play for Colorado State, where he would fit in better.

[SoonerDan74012]

Tough position for the player but recording a coach is not the way to handle it, at least from this outsiders perspective. You never know what pressures these kids get put on during offseason workouts but foundations for championships are built there. Martinez being a DB coach that would mean someone from the secondary is the player who came forward? Just a guess on my part really.

Well lets go to the roster shall we???? Here are our contestants!!!!!

Tony Jefferson
Julian Wilson
Demontre Hurst
James Haynes
Gabe Lynn
Kevin Brent
Marcus Trice
Aaron Colvin
Lamar Harris
Jesse Bell
Sam Proctor
Quentin Hayes
Javon Harris
Jamell Flemming
Dillon Schooley
Jesse Paulson
John Sosanya
Zach Montana

[sooner59]

John Sosanya is dead to me now! :(















Or maybe it was Zach Montana... :confused:

[EatLeadCommie]

Player absolutely did the right thing. He didn't call the NCAA; he went to the compliance director, who MUST know what is going on at all times. In turn, the compliance director initiated an investigation.

This is exactly what the NCAA wants institutions doing when problems arise. The coaches are at fault here, not the player.

You're technically correct, but that player is likely to be a pariah.

[Leroy Lizard]

Speaking from experience, "voluntary" in football means "if you want to play its mandatory". Coaches know who shows up. They play the people that bust their *** and want to be out there. Maybe this person had a solid excuse. If he did, the coach would likely understand and wash his hands of it.

The problem is that the player doesn't need an excuse. You are wrong if you think that voluntary means "if you want to play its mandatory." At least I hope our coaches know better.

The NCAA is really nasty about this. Voluntary means voluntary. The coach screwed up, so he needs to take the fall. Not the player.


Sounds like this person didn't have an excuse, didn't like what the coach had to say, and got p***ed off and reported it. Is it what he was supposed to do by NCAA regulations? Yes.

Then that is what he needs to do.

We've had too much trouble with the NCAA in the past to start expecting our players to go along with coverups. As long as players report these incidences like they should, the OU athletic department has a chance to take appropriate action. Once it hits TexAgs, forget it.

The compliance director probably had a meeting with the players in which he told them that they were to report any problems to him. The coaching staff almost certainly backed that compliance director up at the meeting.

If you really want to blame anyone, blame the compliance director. He is a university employee (not an amateur athlete), so he is paid to make these decisions. (And frankly he made the right one.)

[TahoeSOONER]

In house family issue that should have been taken care of by the leaders of this team. Taking the issue to anyone other than that is not being on board a common goal. Coaches failing to work through other players results in this kind of BS.

[Leroy Lizard]

In house family issue that should have been taken care of by the leaders of this team. Taking the issue to anyone other than that is not being on board a common goal. Coaches failing to work through other players results in this kind of BS.

Not sure what you mean. The compliance director works for the athletic department; he's a member of the university team.

:confused:

[TahoeSOONER]

What I'm saying is if I'm coach Martinez and I had some freshman, or anyone for that matter, who wasn't making "voluntary workouts" then I go to the leaders of my secondary and ask them to get that kid on board.

It should've never come to this kind of negative publicity for the program. This is an in house issue that should have been taken care of before the bad publicity and NCAA and it starts with leadership by the players.

[sooner59]

Not sure what you mean. The compliance director works for the athletic department; he's a member of the university team.

:confused:

You obviously have never been on any sort of a "serious" football team or you would feel differently. I agree that by the rules, everything was done right. But that creates problems within a team. If the player would have gone to a team leader (captain), then it would have been resolved internally. And by that, I mean the captain would have gave him a stern lecture on what it takes to be a champion. If the guy had a legit excuse, the captain would have stuck up for him to the coach. The coaches will have a certain amount of respect for a captain. These things can be stopped immediately and taken care of without having articles on ESPN because some 3rd stringer got his feelings hurt.

[Leroy Lizard]

What I'm saying is if I'm coach Martinez and I had some freshman, or anyone for that matter, who wasn't making "voluntary workouts" then I go to the leaders of my secondary and ask them to get that kid on board.

That will come back to bite you, and doing something like this will gain zero sympathy from the NCAA.

[sooner59]

That will come back to bite you, and doing something like this will gain zero sympathy from the NCAA.

If done the right way, the NCAA will never hear about it. If it becomes an issue after that, then the coaches can only blame themselves for recruiting the wrong type of kids.

[Leroy Lizard]

You obviously have never been on any sort of a "serious" football team or you would feel differently. I agree that by the rules, everything was done right.

Then that's what needs to be done.

The OU staff had already told the player what he should do if he sees a transgression. Most likely the player did just that.

I am assuming that there isn't more to the story than meets the eye.


But that creates problems within a team. If the player would have gone to a team leader (captain), then it would have been resolved internally.

It was already resolved internally by going to the compliance director. Again, he works for OU. You guys are treating the compliance director as an external entity, but he isn't.

[Leroy Lizard]

If done the right way, the NCAA will never hear about it. If it becomes an issue after that, then the coaches can only blame themselves for recruiting the wrong type of kids.

A coach is the one that made the violation. It is not the responsibility of the players to cover up his actions.

The compliance director must be informed of the situation at all times. Otherwise he can't do his job.

[GKeeper316]

According to a letter sent to NCAA director of secondary enforcement Chris Strobel, the university started an investigation after a player refused to sign a weekly practice log and then provided Oklahoma's compliance director with a recording of defensive backs coach Willie Martinez asking why he had missed a voluntary workout.

Recording a coach and ratting him out can't be good for team chemistry.

breaking NCAA rules can't be good for the program as a whole.

[sooner59]

Then that's what needs to be done.

The OU staff had already told the player what he should do if he sees a transgression. Most likely the player did just that.

I am assuming that there isn't more to the story than meets the eye.



It was already resolved internally by going to the compliance director. Again, he works for OU. You guys are treating the compliance director as an external entity, but he isn't.

A compliance director is NOT part of the team. The team consists of players and coaches. If a player has a problem with a coach, he should go to a leader on the team first. That would be like a student having a problem with a professor and instead of going to the class president or the professor, they go directly to the head of that professor's department.

[yermom]

i'm pretty much with Leroy on this.

the coaches should be letting the players handle attendance.

of course, if someone is going as far as recording a coach bitch them out for this, i'm guessing he's not that serious about being on the team

[ouflak]

If he did, the coach would likely understand and wash his hands of it. Sounds like this person didn't have an excuse, didn't like what the coach had to say, and got p***ed off and reported it. Is it what he was supposed to do by NCAA regulations? Yes. Is it something a person who wanted to win a title/play a lot/be an integral part of the team would do? No.

As someone who has been a part of a serious football team, as well as track-and-field and a weightlifting (team captains of each in fact), I think your assumption that the student must sacrifice all for their team is suspect at best. I remember joining a high school basketball team and finding out the coach expected the players to practice seven days a week, weekdays until 7 in the evening and including two-a-days on the weekends, throughout the year. Did this violate all sorts of rules? Ofcourse! I informed the coach that I had to take care of family responsibilities such as cooking the meals, cleaning the house and watching over my disabled brother as well take care of my studies. He saw through that BS excuse instantly (probably had heard similar before) and said that I had to be committed to playing and winning to be a member of this team. The fact was that in my case, it wasn't BS, it was the truth. I had no choice but to leave the team. That was a consistently excellent team, never losing more than 3-4 games a season while he coached and always making the state quarterfinals. Maybe it was worth for those guys who could give their everything to be a part of that. But he had run other players off before for not having his scorched earth policy of total commitment to the team. All it would have taken is one to inform the state about that and he and his policy beaten down into Hades.

If this student who informed the compliance and made the recording is truly lazy (something I doubt if he is willing to go to these lengths), it won't matter one bit whether he misses voluntary workouts anyway. There are just too many other players on this team who want to play. And they will if that is the problem here.

But if this student was telling this coach that he needed to study, or that he wanted to take part of other university activities (fraternity, clubs, whatever) like other university students, or that it was simply none of the coach's business why he missed a voluntary workout, then the best thing for this team's chemistry is that that coach no longer be a part of this program. He has obviously lost perspective that: these are university students first and foremost, that OU does not exactly have the most stellar record regarding the NCAA and we need to be spotless, that just because he doesn't have other responsibilities/desires/interests besides the football program doesn't mean that many of the players might not have such other responsibilities/desires/interests.


You obviously have never been on any sort of a "serious" football team or you would feel differently. I agree that by the rules, everything was done right. But that creates problems within a team. If the player would have gone to a team leader (captain), then it would have been resolved internally. And by that, I mean the captain would have gave him a stern lecture on what it takes to be a champion.

Yeah well I obviously have been a part of a 'serious' team. I've also been around this OU program for something coming on 40 years. This isn't the military. There is no built-in chain of command that absolves the organization from normal civilian rules. And even if things work out like your dreamland on-the-movie-screen version of events would have it work out, then all it would take is some student, not even this one, to mention this to his grandmother who really didn't like the idea of the kid going to OU in the first place, or mention it to a best buddy who's got a big mouth, or have some secretary, who happens to be a Texas A&M grad, overhear a discussion about the situation. Alas your suggestion goes from being a minor NCAA violation to a coverup. Then the 'serious' OU football program is going to have a lot more problems than 'team chemistry'.

I may not always agree with the NCAA. I may not always agree with some of its fundamental principles or even its very existence during some of my more grumbly moments. You will likely never hear the words, "Way to go NCAA!" uttered from my mouth. But these are the rules we agree to play by at the moment so we play by them. And a program with OU's history of run-ins with the NCAA needs to be even more pristine in these cases.

Besides, it not like our defensive back play has always been the strong suit of our team. We could probably use an upgrade in this coaching department anyway, making sure we get not only a proven good db coach, but also get a coach and who understands and will enforce the rules.

[soonerloyal]

I don't want our team breaking, or condoning the breaking of, NCAA rules. Leave that sort of Cammish behavior to other programs. I'm all for team unity and loyalty; I've played & coached - and a solid part of honor is no tolerance for behavior that brings shame & trouble to one's team. I'd hope that Stoops brings the entire staff together, kicks their ***, then brings in the team and straightens their **** out damn quick. Leave no uncertainty that this crap is nipped in the bud. NO poor behavior by the coaching staff OR the players. No excuses, either.

We as fans can't speak to what happened between the players and coaching staff. Nor do we have the whole story. Damn right we should do everything possible to comply and remain in good standing. Who in their right mind wants to be like usuc?

[ouwino]

Not if OU the coaching staff knows what's good for it.

hopefully, the coaches wont say anything to him. just dont let him see the field. EVER

[OUNC06]

Besides, it not like our defensive back play has always been the strong suit of our team. We could probably use an upgrade in this coaching department anyway, making sure we get not only a proven good db coach, but also get a coach and who understands and will enforce the rules.

In case you are not aware Martinez has been at OU for one year. The secondary play was excellent by the end of the year.

I guess your relative who is not getting any playing time doesn't like Martinez. He shouldn't have made the recording and Travis Lewis is probably going to kick his ***.

[AlbqSooner]

The player should have told the coach there was a reason for not attending the voluntary workout. It would not be necessary to state what that reason was. Then tell the coach that his questioning was improper and explain that you are sure it was an oversight on the part of the coach. Tell the coach that you do not intend to report it to the Compliance director but you feel that perhaps someone should in order to avoid problems with the NCAA.

Walk away.

The chips would not fall any harder that way than secretly recording someone. Secret recordings seem like a chicken poop way to deal with it.

THEN mention it to a team leader and start making the workouts on a regular basis.

[stoopified]

Given his responses I'm guessing LL was a hall monitor in HS.

[ouflak]

In case you are not aware Martinez has been at OU for one year. The secondary play was excellent by the end of the year.

I guess your relative who is not getting any playing time doesn't like Martinez. He shouldn't have made the recording and Travis Lewis is probably going to kick his ***.

Actually I was aware of this and thought our play this last year was likewise quite good.

Relative???

But if this situation is going to be repeating itself, or it has already been going on, and has been successfully covered up as has been suggested in this thread, then this coach needs to go. If OU's history with NCAA was the opposite of what it is, I really would feel differently about the matter. I really would. But it is what is, so that's it. We have a real shot at winning a championship next year, and everybody, including this DB coach, has got to be on board with that. If the coach can't handle players not attending volunteer workouts then I'm sure there are plenty of programs who will look at his body of work, including at OU, and be happy to take their chances with him at their program. If we get a post-season ban because this guy or because the program takes on some of the attitudes expressed in this thread, I'm pretty sure we won't be winning a national championship, not without playing in the title game we won't.


The player should have told the coach there was a reason for not attending the voluntary workout. It would not be necessary to state what that reason was. Then tell the coach that his questioning was improper and explain that you are sure it was an oversight on the part of the coach. Tell the coach that you do not intend to report it to the Compliance director but you feel that perhaps someone should in order to avoid problems with the NCAA.

Just out of curiosity, do you really think this didn't happen? I mean, atleast for me, deciding to secretly record somebody is not something I do just spur of the moment. There has to be some reason to go this extreme. I suspect it was in reaction another extreme. But we may never know and hopefully this will all just blow over as it looks like it's going to.


Given his responses I'm guessing LL was a hall monitor in HS.

Heh, well I wasn't.

[CincySooner]

Player absolutely did the right thing. He didn't call the NCAA; he went to the compliance director, who MUST know what is going on at all times. In turn, the compliance director initiated an investigation.

This is exactly what the NCAA wants institutions doing when problems arise. The coaches are at fault here, not the player.

Agreed... if being on a football team is anything like being in the workplace, I'm guessing all of the players have some kind of talk in which they are directed to go to a compliance or ombudsperson FIRST before talking to anyone else.

[d.stOUgh]

Speaking from experience, "voluntary" in football means "if you want to play its mandatory". Coaches know who shows up. They play the people that bust their *** and want to be out there. Maybe this person had a solid excuse. If he did, the coach would likely understand and wash his hands of it. Sounds like this person didn't have an excuse, didn't like what the coach had to say, and got p***ed off and reported it. Is it what he was supposed to do by NCAA regulations? Yes. Is it something a person who wanted to win a title/play a lot/be an integral part of the team would do? No. Either the coaches are dickheads and we should be ashamed that they represent OU, or this person really needs to play for Colorado State, where he would fit in better.



1st off...i don't capitalize words except the important ones...

how many has read Coach Switzers autobiography...'Bootleggers Son'?

how can anyone expect a coach that truly 'cares' about his players not to want to go the extra mile for them? true indeed, Barry helped his players when they needed help and no one else could help them...violated ncaa rules...yup! ask any player he helped ...was what he did wrong according to ncaa rules...answer, yes...as their Coach & Friend...NO!

Barry Switzer was and will forever be THE 'players coach'. read the book! how many players, or coaches, has gone through what Barry has?

Coach Stoops can't know what Barrys' gone through. no one does unless they went through the same thing.

i've met and known most of the starters from '71 thru '85' when i left OKLAHOMA!

you are so very right! players that bitch about *ullchit have no right to even be called SOONERS! much less play for OU!

i pray Coach Stoops is and will be in the same class as B.W. & B.S.

so your evaluation of the players is right on the money!



BOOMER SOONER!!!!!!!!!

[trpltongue]

Everyone is assuming that Martinez was bitching the kid out, but there is no mention that this happened. The article says that the kid recorded Martinez "asking why he had missed a voluntary workout."

That dialog could have been as simple as "hey player, I saw you didn't make it to the voluntary workout again this week. What's up? Those workouts are the only way you're going to be able to get your skills up during the offseason and keep up with the other guys on the team, you really should try to make them."

There's nothing wrong with a coach motivating the players to attend any and all possible training. Now, if the coach punished him with missed playing time or other physical activity, that would be against the rules.

There's nothing wrong with taking attendance at voluntary workouts, and there's nothing wrong with missing voluntary workouts. You just can't be punished for missing them.

[pphilfran]

Everyone is assuming that Martinez was bitching the kid out, but there is no mention that this happened. The article says that the kid recorded Martinez "asking why he had missed a voluntary workout."

That dialog could have been as simple as "hey player, I saw you didn't make it to the voluntary workout again this week. What's up? Those workouts are the only way you're going to be able to get your skills up during the offseason and keep up with the other guys on the team, you really should try to make them."

There's nothing wrong with a coach motivating the players to attend any and all possible training. Now, if the coach punished him with missed playing time or other physical activity, that would be against the rules.

There's nothing wrong with taking attendance at voluntary workouts, and there's nothing wrong with missing voluntary workouts. You just can't be punished for missing them.

I don't think they can take attendance or report to the coaches who is attending the workouts...the strength and conditioning coach can monitor...

"The student-athlete’s attendance and participation in the activity (or lack thereof) may not be recorded for the purpose of reporting such information to coaching staff members or other student-athletes."

[ouflak]

Everyone is assuming that Martinez was bitching the kid out, but there is no mention that this happened.

What I'm assuming is that Martinez realizes that he is now coaching at a major university that is constantly under the NCAA spotlight, with a real shot at a national championship next year, and that he knows the rules of game and will abide by them.

No player should ever get to the point where the thought even crosses his mind, "Hey I know. I'll just record this behavior and report it to the compliance office like they told me I should do when I went through orientation."

It should never get to that point with any Division 1 level coach, ok granted, but especially not at OU. Not with our illustrious relationship with NCAA.

If the kid is lazy, ok fine. He won't see one second on the field with that attitude. Not with the talent he's got around him.

[trpltongue]

I don't think they can take attendance or report to the coaches who is attending the workouts...the strength and conditioning coach can monitor...

"The student-athlete’s attendance and participation in the activity (or lack thereof) may not be recorded for the purpose of reporting such information to coaching staff members or other student-athletes."


My bad, I mis-read the rule. I was thinking it was okay for Martinez to take attendance.

[bonkuba]

Never seeing a snap is too good for this kid.......

Here's to hoping the other members of the "TEAM" make his life a living hell.....then the ***** quits.

Glad this happens now and not next year when the attention whore would have gotten more press.

[Monster Zero]

Not if OU the coaching staff knows what's good for it.
I'm with you on this one Leroy.

At OU with David Boren running the show, success is predicated on playing by the rules. A wink and a nod and looking the other way is what got us in trouble before and what got Kelvin in trouble and maybe Coach Capel too. We don't need no mo of it, 'specially now.

What's the kid involved gonna do going to compliance with no evidence? I don't need to know what his name is. He did the right thing and I expect everything will work out well for him.

[TahoeSOONER]

That will come back to bite you, and doing something like this will gain zero sympathy from the NCAA.

No Leroy, working through team captains to rally other players to off season workouts will do the exact opposite of biting you. It builds leadership and continuity to the team. We should be playing by the rules, no doubt, but if you got beef with a player as a coach there is nothing wrong with grabbing the players who are showing up and leading by example to go get the problem player on board.

[OK2U]

According to a letter sent to NCAA director of secondary enforcement Chris Strobel, the university started an investigation after a player refused to sign a weekly practice log and then provided Oklahoma's compliance director with a recording of defensive backs coach Willie Martinez asking why he had missed a voluntary workout.

Recording a coach and ratting him out can't be good for team chemistry.
Anyone else think this "recording" could have just been a cellphone voice mail?I find it hard to believe a player would procure and use a surreptitious recording device.

[sperry]

If the player is in good shape when camp starts, then it's pretty clear that the voluntary workouts weren't necessary for him.

[CowboyMRW]

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/b-lev/nothing_to_see_here.jpg

[mainline13]

If done the right way, the NCAA will never hear about it. If it becomes an issue after that, then the coaches can only blame themselves for recruiting the wrong type of kids.

That's funny. "Here, this is the right way to do the wrong thing." Or maybe what you're trying to say is that it's only wrong if you get caught? Certainly you are saying that it's only the wrong type of kids who would do the right thing.

I gotta know: in your opinon, are there any absolutes?

[rainiersooner]

Is pilates considered working out? That shouldn't count! It's like aggressive stretching!!

[Soonerfan88]

First, I also believe the recording was probably a voicemail inquiry and not a secret recording of a bi*** session. Second, why is Martinez catching all the flak? Did anyone read the entire article?


The investigation found that receivers coach Jay Norvell and offensive line coach James Patton also discussed attendance at the workouts with players, and defensive tackles coach Jackie Shipp received reports from the strength staff on who was participating.

This is obviously SOP for the entire staff and something that Stoops is going to have to change throughout the program.

Also, as trivial as we may think this rule is I am glad that it is being addressed this way as a secondary violation than through an A&M booster like BRSI/Bomar.

[cjames317]

Who are the current team captains?

[sooner59]

That's funny. "Here, this is the right way to do the wrong thing." Or maybe what you're trying to say is that it's only wrong if you get caught? Certainly you are saying that it's only the wrong type of kids who would do the right thing.

I gotta know: in your opinon, are there any absolutes?

What I was trying to say was that there are ways to resolve this issue without "covering up violations". There could be team leaders who simply tell a coach on their own accord that so-and-so hasn't been showing up, possibly out of concern. Then the coach will understandably want to know if everything is ok or if the kid is just lazy. People are just assuming they are keeping strict records of who shows up and grilling the ones that don't. Maybe, like they said, the coach called the player and left a voicemail. Maybe the player wasn't on good terms with said coach and knew he could get him in trouble. Maybe the coach is knowingly violating the rules and consistently punishing those who aren't participating and the player had enough of it. Could be the fault of the player or the coach.

My point was that their are ways to resolve it without it showing up on ESPN. If the player truly wants to be part of a special team and have good chemistry with other players and the coaches, he will go talk to him and explain the situation. "Hey coach, I couldn't make it because (blank) is going on." "Hey coach, I know I am missing workouts, but I will show up and try harder." "Hey coach, I have outside obligations, can we work something out?" And I am not saying this wasn't done. I am saying, if it was done, then the coach may not be right for the program. If it didn't happen, and the kid is lazy and had a vendetta, then it was a recruiting mistake, because the player wouldn't be right for the program.

And if the team captains think it was the fault of the player, they will probably have a serious talk with them, then if it continues, maybe he becomes the team leper. If the captains back the player, the the coach better listen, because he could turn the locker room against him. Nobody wants outcomes like that. That is why communication is the best route, not making recordings to take to a compliance officer. That is unless that route was already taken, and if so, the coach is the problem. Its good to follow the word of the NCAA, but common sense could resolve it first. If not, either Martinez or the player are on thin ice. I doubt Bob likes dirty laundry being aired sportscenter.

[Leroy Lizard]

Everyone is assuming that Martinez was bitching the kid out, but there is no mention that this happened. The article says that the kid recorded Martinez "asking why he had missed a voluntary workout."

That dialog could have been as simple as "hey player, I saw you didn't make it to the voluntary workout again this week. What's up? Those workouts are the only way you're going to be able to get your skills up during the offseason and keep up with the other guys on the team, you really should try to make them."

There's nothing wrong with a coach motivating the players to attend any and all possible training.

Other than the fact that it breaks NCAA rules. :rolleyes:

[MamaMia]

Scew the NCAA. Any human being in America has the right to work out however long they like. Its in the constitution! :mad:

[Leroy Lizard]

No Leroy, working through team captains to rally other players to off season workouts will do the exact opposite of biting you. It builds leadership and continuity to the team. We should be playing by the rules, no doubt, but if you got beef with a player as a coach there is nothing wrong with grabbing the players who are showing up and leading by example to go get the problem player on board.

This isn't 1960. You have to play by different rules now.

[Leroy Lizard]

Scew the NCAA. Any human being in America has the right to work out however long they like. Its in the constitution! :mad:

And they can.

But as a coach, you cannot compel your athletes to work out beyond the permissible guidelines. They can still do it, but you can't get involved.

Is this that hard to understand?

[MamaMia]

And they can.

But as a coach, you cannot compel your athletes to work out beyond the permissible guidelines. They can still do it, but you can't get involved.

Is this that hard to understand? Loosen up Lizard face. Do some stretches.

[mainline13]

What I was trying to say was that there are ways to resolve this issue without "covering up violations".

If I misread it that badly, then I sincerely apologize. I truly thought that you were, indeed, advocating covering up. As a matter of fact, I thought you were saying, in essence, that a team player would never have done anything that might eventually give the NCAA a sniff.

But hey, I've been wrong before. I'm sure I'll be wrong again.

[Leroy Lizard]

Loosen up Lizard face. Do some stretches.

Sorry, I missed your sarcasm. Help me out a little there. :O

[ouflak]

.... if you got beef with a player as a coach there is nothing wrong with grabbing the players who are showing up and leading by example to go get the problem player on board.

Nothing wrong except ofcourse that it would be a blatant NCAA violation.

Look, I'm certainly no fan of the organization. If, within my lifetime, the smoldering cinder remains of the NCAA are unceremoniously tossed onto the dust heap of history...
.
.
.
(chuckles)
.
.
.
... I won't be sad.

But their philo$ophy *cough* is that a student should be a student first, and all the stuff that goes with that, and then an athlete second. Now forgetting the blatant hypocracy they display on a regular basis, they set the rules, we all agreed to those rules. So we play by those rules.

If this was the Yale men's rowing team, or Louisiana Tech's women's basketball team, then it wouldn't matter. I doubt those schools even have a compliance officer. If they were caught red handed by the NCAA itself, at most it's a slap on the wrist if even that. Heck, they'd probably just get censured with a statement ending like, "Awww, we can't stay mad at you!" These schools have crystal clear reputations and histories the NCAA.

The NCAA will hang OU given any opportunity they get.

This coach and/or these coaches had better get their attitudes straight and get them straight right now. There are a few good reasons why we might not win a championship next year. There are a LOT of good reasons why we SHOULD win a championship next year. These coach's behaviours better not be the reason why we don't win a championship.

The way this was handled, it all will likely blow over. Let's just let it and hope that everybody from here on out is on the same championship page.

[Leroy Lizard]

If a violation occurred and the compliance director was not informed, then it was a coverup. There is no way to "handle" the situation without it not being a coverup.

As it stands, a violation occurred (one that occurs on nearly every campus) and OU handled it the right way. The NCAA will be annoyed, but probably not much more than that.

Cover it up, and you could end up with massive problems.

BTW, the coaching staff should go out of their way to make they player look like he did the right thing, for appearance's sake. Use this opportunity to raise your standing in the NCAA's eyes.

[sooner59]

Hypothetical scenario:

Player X misses a couple of voluntary workouts. The other teammates show up and nobody knows what is going on with Player X. Someone informs the coach that the player hasn't shown up in a while and nobody knows why. Coach becomes concerned.

Coach calls Player X and says, "Your teammates say that haven't seen you in a while, is everything ok? If there is a problem, please let me know and I will help any way I can. If not, you must realize that every day you aren't working out and getting better, your teammates are either making up ground on you are surpassing you and will be more ready to play when the season starts."

Player X takes that as "I know if you are there or not and if you aren't showing up for this voluntary workout, I'm benching you and you have little chance of playing." Player X is angry and informs the compliance department, and it ends up all over the media.

In reality, the coach was just concerned and wanted to understand the situation. And he tells him the truth that not working out while your teammates, who are world-class athletes, are working out and getting better is to your own detriment. No threats or punishments, just the honest truth. Its up to Player X. The coach isn't telling him he HAS to be there. He is saying when you don't get your chance, blame yourself for letting your teammates surpass you.

[badger]

well, next time OU releases a depth chart, just look for the name at the very, very bottom of the list. or the one missing from the list.

and if he does in fact get the boot, wonder if the recording will become public. very bad move if it comes to that, but i think we're all really curious about what was said.

[BoulderSooner79]

well, next time OU releases a depth chart, just look for the name at the very, very bottom of the list. or the one missing from the list.

and if he does in fact get the boot, wonder if the recording will become public. very bad move if it comes to that, but i think we're all really curious about what was said.

I really hope this doesn't happen. It's unfortunate this situation developed, but retaliation/retribution seems like the worst possible outcome to me. Get it resolved and move on (I hope).

[KantoSooner]

If a player is not dedicated enough to take part in 'voluntary' practices (much like showing up a little early and staying a little late for those of us in the working world), then I'd prefer to know that now. If he is such a critical player that his lack of 'wanna' doesn't sink him in spring drills then, folks, we don't and never did have the team we thought we did.
If he's just some joker who is headed to a red shirt season or to a long term spot at the end of the bench, his attitude probably doesn't matter at this stage.

[SoonerLB]

Another mole hill turning into a mountain is what we have here. Just sayin' . . .

[swardboy]

I'm sure Martinez is a good coach as evidenced by improvements in secondary play last year, and I know his is not the only name here....but I hope this is the end of a trend.

[TahoeSOONER]

Nothing wrong except ofcourse that it would be a blatant NCAA violation.

Look, I'm certainly no fan of the organization. If, within my lifetime, the smoldering cinder remains of the NCAA are unceremoniously tossed onto the dust heap of history...
.
.
.
(chuckles)
.
.
.
... I won't be sad.

But their philo$ophy *cough* is that a student should be a student first, and all the stuff that goes with that, and then an athlete second. Now forgetting the blatant hypocracy they display on a regular basis, they set the rules, we all agreed to those rules. So we play by those rules.

If this was the Yale men's rowing team, or Louisiana Tech's women's basketball team, then it wouldn't matter. I doubt those schools even have a compliance officer. If they were caught red handed by the NCAA itself, at most it's a slap on the wrist if even that. Heck, they'd probably just get censured with a statement ending like, "Awww, we can't stay mad you!" These schools have crystal clear reputations and histories the NCAA.

The NCAA will hang OU given any opportunity they get.

This coach and/or these coaches had better get their attitudes straight and get them straight right now. There are a few good reasons why we might not win a championship next year. There are a LOT of good reasons why we SHOULD win a championship next year. These coach's behaviours better not be the reason why we don't win a championship.

The way this was handled, it all will likely blow over. Let's just let it and hope that everybody from here on out is on the same championship page.

Student first and athlete second put aside there is extra work to be put in and if it's not put in by the leadership of the players then it's in violation of the NCAA. I believe this to be a simple fix by working through captains but involving compliance officers to the NCAA by passing on coaches that are asking their players to take that extra step is not a team concept.

It's like going to the manager before you tell the person your working with about the issue at hand. At the very least give that person the common respect because were all on the same team here, extra work or not.

Just my two cent and I understand your point.

[TMcGee86]

John Sosanya is dead to me now! :(















Or maybe it was Zach Montana... :confused:

I've never liked Dillon Schooley.* I knew he was trouble from the first moment I laid eyes on him. Dillon Schooley. What kind of a name is that anyway. Just reeks of locker room cancer.












* As a brief aside, I have never in my life seen Dillon Schooley, and wouldn't know him if he were standing on my big toe. I've never even read his name before today. Dillon, if you are out there, keep rawkin.

[bikerdood]

...Whoever the L'l B**** is that recorded Martinez and whined needs to be Travis and Ronnell Lewis' roommate 'til he transfers for "personal reasons".

[hvhurricane]

...Whoever the L'l B**** is that recorded Martinez and whined needs to be Travis and Ronnell Lewis' roommate 'til he transfers for "personal reasons".

Yes, how dare the player have any rights to stay within the rules.

[Boomer!!]

Whoever the player was that did the recording is going to be in some trouble. :D

I have a class with a player that plays in the secondary, I wont mention his name. I heard someone ask him about it and he said almost all the players complained because they knew it was a rules violation and the way he put it they were being pushed to hard for offseason workouts and they were tired of it. He said the same thing happened last year but it never hit the news, it was kept as an inside thing.

[Boomer!!]

Hypothetical scenario:

Player X misses a couple of voluntary workouts. The other teammates show up and nobody knows what is going on with Player X. Someone informs the coach that the player hasn't shown up in a while and nobody knows why. Coach becomes concerned.

Coach calls Player X and says, "Your teammates say that haven't seen you in a while, is everything ok? If there is a problem, please let me know and I will help any way I can. If not, you must realize that every day you aren't working out and getting better, your teammates are either making up ground on you are surpassing you and will be more ready to play when the season starts."

Player X takes that as "I know if you are there or not and if you aren't showing up for this voluntary workout, I'm benching you and you have little chance of playing." Player X is angry and informs the compliance department, and it ends up all over the media.

In reality, the coach was just concerned and wanted to understand the situation. And he tells him the truth that not working out while your teammates, who are world-class athletes, are working out and getting better is to your own detriment. No threats or punishments, just the honest truth. Its up to Player X. The coach isn't telling him he HAS to be there. He is saying when you don't get your chance, blame yourself for letting your teammates surpass you.


Wrong. I heard the whole story today from a couple different players.

[sooner59]

Wrong. I heard the whole story today from a couple different players.

That's why it was stated as a hypothetical situation genius. Because I don't know what happened. Please enlighten us.

[Leroy Lizard]

It's like going to the manager before you tell the person your working with about the issue at hand. At the very least give that person the common respect because were all on the same team here, extra work or not.

The person committing the infraction was the manager. And the company had installed a person with the express purpose of fielding such complaints. Why wouldn't you go to him?

[MamaMia]

I'm not sure why he didn't go to practice. Maybe he had a good reason. But one thing is for sure in the NCAA's eyes: You can't ask players why they missed a voluntary workout.

The coaching staff needs to understand the concept of voluntary.

And under no circumstances should the coaching staff try to extract any sort of revenge on the player. He gets as much playing time as he would normally. After all, he only did what he was told to do. Let me guess, you use to be a hall monitor huh?

Right or wrong, hes a rat fink.

[Leroy Lizard]

Let me guess, you use to be a hall monitor huh?

Nice ripoff of stoopified's post. :rolleyes:


Right or wrong, hes a rat fink.

Right or wrong? I love it. Yeah, whether he did the right thing makes no difference, he still did the wrong thing.

Is that how it works, oh Confusing One?

[MamaMia]

Nice ripoff of stoopified's post. :rolleyes:



Right or wrong? I love it. Yeah, whether he did the right thing makes no difference, he still did the wrong thing.

Is that how it works, oh Confusing One?


Given his responses I'm guessing LL was a hall monitor in HS.Actually I just now read stoopifieds post. Ironic that we were thinking the same thing.

Lizard, can you at least admit the dude is a total rat fink?

[Leroy Lizard]

Actually I just now read stoopifieds post. Ironic that we were thinking the same thing.

That's kind of your problem, not mine.


Lizard, can you at least admit the dude is a total rat fink?

Let me try this one more time: The dude was almost certainly told by the university and coaching staff to report rules violations to the compliance director, A UNIVERSITY EMPLOYEE.

If you want to go waaah-waaah on the compliance director for telling the NCAA about the infractions, fine. (You'd be wrong, but at least I can see that point.)

Besides, the player signed on with the University of Oklahoma Sooners, not the Mafia.

[MamaMia]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/OUmom/coffee-2.gif You know what...I think you're channeling your inner rat fink Liz.


...and if you think for one minute that the team members are going to think what this dude did was cool, then you sir, are sadly mistaken.

[Leroy Lizard]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/OUmom/coffee-2.gif You know what...I think you're channeling your inner rat fink Liz.


...and if you think for one minute that the team members are going to think what this dude did was cool, then you sir, are sadly mistaken.

As far as being a rat fink is concerned, I personally don't give a **** what THEY think of him. He might. I don't. This isn't middle school or the Mob.

[ouflak]

Hypothetical scenario:

Hypothetical scenario:

Coaches X, Y, and Z push the players to attend the voluntary workouts. Two of them know this is risky because of existing NCAA regulations. The other one is new and unfamiliar the current rules regarding player contact in the offseason. They do this routinely for a year and nothing bad really comes of it except for perhaps a few players feeling unduly pressured to put football above any other personal interests/responsibilities they would like to or need to engage in.

The offseason soon becomes the season and it goes well with a conference title and a bowl game win. Then the offseason begins again and the players are again pushed to attend their workouts to the discouragement of other normal student activities. A few players try to resist this pressure and hope to get support from the coaches and team captians. However the response is in fact in support of this behaviour for the sake of the team and winning a national championship. The complaining players fall in line and status quo continues. As the end of the spring semester rolls around, a couple of the players are working at their intership jobs (genuinely working) and overheard discussing the situation, and how it was handled, by a secretary who happens to be a Texas A&M grad. She informs the nearest NCAA representive, as well as a few of her Aggie insider friends, and an investigation begins in earnest (since this is OU afterall). After interviewing a variety of players, who are made to understand that lying or attempting to hamper the investigation could lead to much worse results for themselves and the school, they soon put together a picture of consistent violations occurring over a long period of time.

Bob Stoops, Joe Castiglione, and the OU compiance officer all get up one morning, turn on their computers, open up the ESPN website and first find out about the investigation on the front page.

The response is quick, as OU itself pushes it to be: Lack of institutional control: Post-season ban, loss of some scholarships, more limits on player coach contact which must now be actively enforced by the compliance officer (or else). Coach Z is forced to resign, being the worst offender, despite demonstrating ignorance of the rules. OU is forced to find a new coach for the... position X players.

Despite all this, OU still manages to have an excellent season due to a large number of returning playmakers and previous good recruiting that leads to few players who are able to contribute immediately. They go undefeated. But after all of that hard work, the players, coaches, fans all have to sit back and watch the bowl season play out, and see yet another SEC team, that OU would likely have rolled over, win the title game.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

So which scenario do you guys like better? The one where this student (the ones some of you keep refferring to as a rat) told *our own* compliance officer where the matter could be dealt with in-house and with no further repurcussions, or the scenario I described above?

[jkjsooner]

Player absolutely did the right thing. He didn't call the NCAA; he went to the compliance director, who MUST know what is going on at all times. In turn, the compliance director initiated an investigation.

This is exactly what the NCAA wants institutions doing when problems arise. The coaches are at fault here, not the player.

The right thing? Yes. The smart thing? No.

The coaches won't directly confront the player on the issue, of course, but his playing time might have dwindled significantly.


The problem I see is that every school has "voluntary" workouts which are not really voluntary. To be competitive, guys really do have to dedicate a lot of the time on off-season workouts.

I guess the solution is that the tracking mechanism must be less formal and the coaches will have to be less direct about their expectations. Never ask a kid about voluntary workouts. Never write down their attendance. Never directly criticize a player for missing a workout. The consequences are going to have to be less direct and impossible to prove.

I hate to say we have to skirt the rules but on this one we do. It's just being realistic about how college football is run.

[jkjsooner]

Can you imagine if Wikileaks got in the business of college football or if someone started a Wikileaks like site for college football?

[Leroy Lizard]

Coach calls Player X and says, "Your teammates say that haven't seen you in a while, is everything ok? If there is a problem, please let me know and I will help any way I can.

So far so, good.


If not, you must realize that every day you aren't working out and getting better, your teammates are either making up ground on you are surpassing you and will be more ready to play when the season starts."

This is a football version of "Chicago insurance." It's a thinly veiled attempt to encourage attendance at voluntary practices through phony concern for the player.

File this under "The NCAA was not born yesterday."

:rolleyes:

[Leroy Lizard]

The right thing? Yes. The smart thing? No.

The coaches won't directly confront the player on the issue, of course, but his playing time might have dwindled significantly.

And that would be a very dumb thing to do. If these coaches are truly professional, they won't let this incident affect their decision-making. Petty revenge will do no one any favors.


The problem I see is that every school has "voluntary" workouts which are not really voluntary. To be competitive, guys really do have to dedicate a lot of the time on off-season workouts.

I guess the solution is that the tracking mechanism must be less formal and the coaches will have to be less direct about their expectations. Never ask a kid about voluntary workouts. Never write down their attendance. Never directly criticize a player for missing a workout. The consequences are going to have to be less direct and impossible to prove.

Essentially that is the way to do it, except some coaches violated it.

[jkjsooner]

And that would be a very dumb thing to do. If these coaches are truly professional, they won't let this incident affect their decision-making. Petty revenge will do no one any favors.


It's very hard to prove though. I guess it depends on how much playing time the player got last year and where is is on the depth chart. If he's down a little on the depth chart and rarely played last year, it would be impossible to prove playing time was impacted by blowing the whistle.

[Leroy Lizard]

It's very hard to prove though.

Doesn't matter. You gain nothing by doing so, and all you create is a bitter player with an axe to grind. After he graduates, he is free to make any sort of allegation he wants about the program.

You cannot allow your emotions to affect your decision-making. I had a student who made a false accusation about me once (Allegation: I purposely lost an exam when she, in fact, never took it.) I made damn sure that the student's grades were as accurate as possible from there on. Yeah, I was pissed at her, but you just can't operate like a Teamster thug in these situations.

Its' called PROFESSIONALISM.

Besides, the player didn't do anything wrong. Why punish him?

[Soonerjeepman]

hopefully, the coaches wont say anything to him. just dont let him see the field. EVER

guess that is my position...as a hs bball coach...those who worked played...I didn't say much about it...just SHOWED them...

it is voluntary but at OU that means a different thing....like all D1 schools..the coach put himself and the kid in a bad spot...should have not said a word and just looked at the paperwork.

I'd say the signing can be justified for "insurance" purposes..knowing who was there in case of an accident...if the kid refused to sign he doesn't get in.

course my son has finally bought into extra work...sort of...LOL he was up at 6:15 running the hill this morning...his 40 time was 5.9 at conditioning...yes he WON'T be a rb...LOL..but he is WORKING on it..

Those who WANT to be there will and that is who you want...

my kid's hs baseball coach has 4 priorities...(course this is HS)
Faith
Family
School
Baseball

in that order...just got to be up front and tell them..yourself.

[trpltongue]

This is a football version of "Chicago insurance." It's a thinly veiled attempt to encourage attendance at voluntary practices through phony concern for the player.

File this under "The NCAA was not born yesterday."

:rolleyes:


Leroy, you honestly don't think that the player would get behind his teammates if he doesn't make it to off-season workouts? The off-season is when 90% of your strength and conditioning is developed. Missing the voluntary workouts would have a definite impact in the players skill development.

I still think it would come down to punishment. If the coaches instituted a systematic punishment for missing voluntary workouts, that would be a big NO-NO. But as anyone who's played competitive sports knows, the more you work out correctly, the better you get.

[sooner59]

So far so, good.



This is a football version of "Chicago insurance." It's a thinly veiled attempt to encourage attendance at voluntary practices through phony concern for the player.

File this under "The NCAA was not born yesterday."

:rolleyes:

Even if the coach doesn't say anything like this, its still true.

[Leroy Lizard]

Leroy, you honestly don't think that the player would get behind his teammates if he doesn't make it to off-season workouts? The off-season is when 90% of your strength and conditioning is developed. Missing the voluntary workouts would have a definite impact in the players skill development.

I agree, but one needs to be careful about these nudge-nudge, wink-wink strategies. That isn't going to fool anyone.


I still think it would come down to punishment. If the coaches instituted a systematic punishment for missing voluntary workouts, that would be a big NO-NO. But as anyone who's played competitive sports knows, the more you work out correctly, the better you get.

It comes down to more than just punishment. To be voluntary, you cannot compel players to do it, implied or otherwise.

Yes, there are ways to encourage participation in voluntary workouts without raising the eyebrows of the NCAA. These carefully crafted statements to players is not one of them.

The best thing to do is to address the entire team at once, and not single out players. But you can still break NCAA rules by doing so.

[trpltongue]

I just can't see how stating the fact that there are voluntary workouts and that if you attend those workouts you will make yourself a better player, could be construed as some violation or coersion.

Now, I agree on the nudge-nudge wink-wink strategies. And if any sort of punishment is even implied, then there's an issue.

Also, if what was stated above is true, that the coaches were systematically taking attendance and getting on players cases for not attending, that is obviously breaking the NCAA rules.

I would say, riding a kid that isn't making it to voluntary workouts is a gray area. If it's done in such a way that the coach is encouraging the kid to attend it's okay, but again, if the coach is threatening the kid with punishment in any form, real or implied, then it's not okay.

Now take that all with a grain of salt, as I'm not an NCAA rules expert. It very well may be that you can only mention voluntary workouts once, to the whole team, and never again after that.

[Soonersince57]

So this is 'voluntary' in the same way it is for me to go to my in-laws 'voluntarily' on special occasions and wish to stab myself in my ears with an ice pick every time the California in-laws speak? My coach (wife) says that I don't have to go, but I know what the consequences are if I choose not to 'volunteer' to be there. Is that about it?

[stoopified]

LL say whay you want but I GUARANTEE that among the elite teams in college football VOLUNTARY workouts are anything but voluntary if you want to PLAY.

[NorCal Sooner]

LL say whay you want but I GUARANTEE that among the elite teams in college football VOLUNTARY workouts are anything but voluntary if you want to PLAY.

For sure. It was even this way back when I played high school basketball. You play in summer league or you might as well not even try out in the fall.

[BoulderSooner79]

I can't help but believe there was a problem here outside of the violation of the voluntary workout rule. At this elite level of competition, these players know what is on the line and getting passed up on playing time is the ultimate punishment. Something was festering if a player bothered to document proof and go through the reporting procedure. Maybe it was just one guy, but who would want to be an outcast with teammates? Doesn't make sense - they must have already known there would be group support. We don't know what was going on a I sincerely hope we never do because that would mean it wasn't fixed and put behind the team.

[CBUS_SOONER]

All I know is that our sooners have failed thus far this offseason... Might be a good time to have a team meeting and give the boys a stern talking to before sh!t carries over into the season. Hopefully oudavid can send a tweet to get our boys back on track

[Soonerjeepman]

So this is 'voluntary' in the same way it is for me to go to my in-laws 'voluntarily' on special occasions and wish to stab myself in my ears with an ice pick every time the California in-laws speak? My coach (wife) says that I don't have to go, but I know what the consequences are if I choose not to 'volunteer' to be there. Is that about it?

nice!...:)

[SoonerMom2]

James Hale said it is a backup and coaches and players know who it is. Landry Jones, Broyles, and Lewis have been telling the players to go to the Huffman to keep working out this week. He said the snitch is going to have real problems with their teammate for the way he went about this and if he thought this would give him more playing time, think again.

[VMG]

This all started because the coaching staff was clearly being hypocritical about 'voluntary' workouts. A leader sacrifices the moral authority of his or her position when ones actions do not match ones words. They can't preach compliance one day and then practice a 'wink and a nod' approach to something like voluntary workouts the next. Players see right through that stuff. Unchecked, it won't take long before we have a mercenary 'me' vice 'team' environment in the program because this kind of thing erodes any foundation of trust between coaches and players.

This is not good...for the team, the program, or the university and the stink is going to last a while.

[BoulderSooner79]

This all started because the coaching staff was clearly being hypocritical about 'voluntary' workouts. A leader sacrifices the moral authority of his or her position when ones actions do not match ones words. They can't preach compliance one day and then practice a 'wink and a nod' approach to something like voluntary workouts the next. Players see right through that stuff. Unchecked, it won't take long before we have a mercenary 'me' vice 'team' environment in the program because this kind of thing erodes any foundation of trust between coaches and players.

This is not good...for the team, the program, or the university and the stink is going to last a while.

I agree with most of what you said except the last line. This situation need not linger and Bob should step in forcefully and make sure it doesn't.

[AirbOUrne]

Let's replay this, OU self reports, again and is punished. Auburn, SUC, and the universe pay their players to brush their teeth (can't cuss on SF) and.....they walk. The NCAA is a joke. f'em

[BoulderSooner79]

Let's replay this, OU self reports, again and is punished. Auburn, SUC, and the universe pay their players to brush their teeth (can't cuss on SF) and.....they walk. The NCAA is a joke. f'em

USC walked? It took a while, but it looks more like they got both femurs crushed and are currently in a wheelchair.

[AirbOUrne]

mmmmm, looks like their walking fine to me!

[BoulderSooner79]

mmmmm, looks like their walking fine to me!

I don't think many programs consider vacating a bunch of wins including a national title to be walking fine. That's not including the bowl bans and scholarship reductions. If USC is the example, I hope we keep on self-reporting when things happen and take stronger measures to avoid them.

[Boomer!!]

James Hale said it is a backup and coaches and players know who it is. Landry Jones, Broyles, and Lewis have been telling the players to go to the Huffman to keep working out this week. He said the snitch is going to have real problems with their teammate for the way he went about this and if he thought this would give him more playing time, think again.

It wasnt just one player, it was a lot of them. This has been going on for awhile going back to last year and the players have been tired of the coaches riding them for not going to all the voluntary workouts.

[Mongo]

The sheets that players have to sign weekly for hourly records is a joke. Every school fudges them. Move along.

[gaylordfan1]

Well apparently the voluntary workouts weight heavily on whether or not one sees the field. So it's on the players conscience if the don't go. It would appear to behoove the players to take the extra effort and make the workouts.

[Leroy Lizard]

LL say whay you want but I GUARANTEE that among the elite teams in college football VOLUNTARY workouts are anything but voluntary if you want to PLAY.

Fine, then why complain about the player going to the compliance director? After all, if it's okay then it's okay. Right?

[Leroy Lizard]

All I know is that our sooners have failed thus far this offseason... Might be a good time to have a team meeting and give the boys a stern talking to before sh!t carries over into the season. Hopefully oudavid can send a tweet to get our boys back on track

He can start with the coaching staff, who blew it here.

[Leroy Lizard]

Let's replay this, OU self reports, again and is punished. Auburn, SUC, and the universe pay their players to brush their teeth (can't cuss on SF) and.....they walk. The NCAA is a joke. f'em

USC walked? (Sorry BoulderSooner, didn't see your post.)

Auburn hasn't walked yet. I don't think they will.

In the past, the NCAA punished transgressions very heavily, self-reported or not. That has changed. Now, the NCAA nails you if you try to cover up. It is better to self-report, get the obligatory warning from the NCAA, and go on with life.

[Leroy Lizard]

Well apparently the voluntary workouts weight heavily on whether or not one sees the field. So it's on the players conscience if the don't go. It would appear to behoove the players to take the extra effort and make the workouts.

It should come down to who is the in best condition to play, whether he attended voluntary workouts or not. If Broyles doesn't attend a single voluntary workout, he still starts as long as he is the best available.

[MamaMia]

It wasnt just one player, it was a lot of them. This has been going on for awhile going back to last year and the players have been tired of the coaches riding them for not going to all the voluntary workouts.
How do you know this to be true?

[sooner59]

It should come down to who is the in best condition to play, whether he attended voluntary workouts or not. If Broyles doesn't attend a single voluntary workout, he still starts as long as he is the best available.

This is exactly what I was trying to point out. If someone sits on their *** watching tv during the offseason and their teammate busts their *** working hard to get better, then the person who slacked off is in danger of not being the best at their position come fall. Broyles probably doesn't fit in that scenario, but many players do. The best available are usually the ones that push themselves hard during the offseason...not always, but usually. And telling a player that very fact is being honest.

[47straight]

I hear all of this and just think of my undergrad research advisor calling me on Saturday at 11 am and being pissed that I wasn't awake and up there helping write journal articles. That sure was "voluntary" depending upon whether I wanted to go present papers in exotic locales and get a paid gig the next summer.

[Boomer!!]

How do you know this to be true?

Because I have classes with the players and asked one of them about what was going on.

[Boomer!!]

Well apparently the voluntary workouts weight heavily on whether or not one sees the field. So it's on the players conscience if the don't go. It would appear to behoove the players to take the extra effort and make the workouts.

Many of the starters from last year were complaining about this last year and still saw the field so I dont think thats the case.

[sooner59]

Whether they saw the field or not, its disappointing that they won't go the extra mile. Lots of people would give anything to have their talent and have their opportunities. If you want to rely on your talent and not work hard, its a disgrace to people who were never given the chance.

[Leroy Lizard]

This is exactly what I was trying to point out. If someone sits on their *** watching tv during the offseason and their teammate busts their *** working hard to get better, then the person who slacked off is in danger of not being the best at their position come fall. Broyles probably doesn't fit in that scenario, but many players do. The best available are usually the ones that push themselves hard during the offseason...not always, but usually. And telling a player that very fact is being honest.

This is why I would have the team captains invite the players to attend workouts, after you have made it clear that working out increases their chances of being fit when the season starts.

But once you start inquiring into who is showing up and who isn't, you cross the line. It's no longer voluntary at that point.


Whether they saw the field or not, its disappointing that they won't go the extra mile. Lots of people would give anything to have their talent and have their opportunities.

Maybe I don't have the competitive fire that a lot of players do, but to me there is a limit as to how far I'm willing to go to compete. It's easy to tell someone else from the comfort of your Barcalounger how hard they should be willing to work. After all, how many of us are in perfect shape?

[ouflak]

Whether they saw the field or not, its disappointing that they won't go the extra mile. .... If you want to rely on your talent and not work hard, ....

This really causes me to bristle. I was probably the classic example of a guy who 'went that extra mile' back when I was playing competitive sports, hence the reason why I was a team captain in everything I did. Sure, I probably had a few extra natural abilities that would have made me a starter anyway, but the fact was, even then, I still had to move that extra mile of effort around my real world real life responsibilities. And that wasn't always on the timeline the coaches wanted it be. Hey we all have our sob stories. I had responsibilities due to life circumstances that were far higher priority to me than football, track and field, and weightlifting (and I was still able to excel in these disciplines).

The thing is we don't know what is going on in these student's lives; what dreams they have, what responsibilities they have outside of football and student life, what demons they are fighting. But I do know that it is a big assumption to expect that each one of these kids' number one goal in everything they are doing at the University of Oklahoma is to win you, me and all of the fans posting on this thread and message board another national championship. There is more to life for most of them. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is absolutely normal and in fact it is probably quite healthy. It gives perspective on just how important, special, and rare a championship is. Some of these young men probably have that superlative level of dedication and that's great, for them and for us. We just need a few....

We should plan on winning a national title next year with this team as motley a crew as it is. I truly believe we can... unless ofcourse we get a post-season ban.

[Leroy Lizard]

This really causes me to bristle. I was probably the classic example of a guy who 'went that extra mile' back when I was playing competitive sports, hence the reason why I was a team captain in everything I did. Sure, I probably had a few extra natural abilities that would have made me a starter anyway, but the fact was, even then, I still had to move that extra mile of effort around my real world real life responsibilities. And that wasn't always on the timeline the coaches wanted it be. Hey we all have our sob stories. I had responsibilities due to life circumstances that were far higher priority to me than football, track and field, and weightlifting (and I was still able to excel in these disciplines).

The thing is we don't know what is going on in these student's lives; what dreams they have, what responsibilities they have outside of football and student life, what demons they are fighting. But I do know that it is a big assumption to expect that each one of these kids' number one goal in everything they are doing at the University of Oklahoma is to win you, me and all of the fans posting on this thread and message board another national championship. There is more to life for most of them. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is absolutely normal and in fact it is probably quite healthy. It gives perspective on just how important, special, and rare a championship is. Some of these young men probably have that superlative level of dedication and that's great, for them and for us. We just need a few....

We should plan on winning a national title next year with this team as motley a crew as it is. I truly believe we can... unless ofcourse we get a post-season ban.

Great post!

[VMG]

Cannot believe the number of posters on this thread who have said, suggested, or agreed to the idea that it's OK for OK to 'skirt the rules,' or 'that everybody does it', or 'the player was at fault', or 'this is what it takes to win' etc. My favorite is 'you have to go the extra mile and this kid didn't want to do it...' Am sure there were similar sentiments tossed around the Iowa campus before they medevac'd a buncha folks to the hospital recently.

The problem with 'the extra mile' is that there is always an extra mile. The chinning bar keeps getting raised to eek out that last nth of a percent of something that most often has no connection to success or failure in anything. Classic can't see the forest for the trees... 'Trust' between coaches and players has taken a hit here.

[pphilfran]

How do you know this to be true?

You actually think they would sit the best player?

If all other things are equal then the guy that participated would probably get the start...

Unless the coaches are f'n idiots...

[King Barry's Back]

Player absolutely did the right thing. He didn't call the NCAA; he went to the compliance director, who MUST know what is going on at all times. In turn, the compliance director initiated an investigation.

This is exactly what the NCAA wants institutions doing when problems arise. The coaches are at fault here, not the player.

Leroy, you are absolutely right, but surreptitiously taping one of your coaches? And then turning it over?

Turning in a written report to the compliance office, or doing a telephone interview with them, or agreeing to come in for a full interview and to cooperate with a full investigation are indisputably good decisions.

But secretly taping your coaches? That might or might not be good for team chemistry, but it is clearly not good for your own chemistry if you want to mak the starting line-up. (And it is illegal in several states, by the way.)

[Leroy Lizard]

Leroy, you are absolutely right, but surreptitiously taping one of your coaches? And then turning it over?

Turning in a written report to the compliance office, or doing a telephone interview with them, or agreeing to come in for a full interview and to cooperate with a full investigation are indisputably good decisions.

But secretly taping your coaches? That might or might not be good for team chemistry, but it is clearly not good for your own chemistry if you want to mak the starting line-up. (And it is illegal in several states, by the way.)

Sounds harsh but I'm not sure what happened to lead up to that point. Perhaps if he saw the player's side of the story we would understand. Perhaps not.

[King Barry's Back]

Everyone is assuming that Martinez was bitching the kid out, but there is no mention that this happened. The article says that the kid recorded Martinez "asking why he had missed a voluntary workout."

That dialog could have been as simple as "hey player, I saw you didn't make it to the voluntary workout again this week. What's up? Those workouts are the only way you're going to be able to get your skills up during the offseason and keep up with the other guys on the team, you really should try to make them."

There's nothing wrong with a coach motivating the players to attend any and all possible training. Now, if the coach punished him with missed playing time or other physical activity, that would be against the rules.

There's nothing wrong with taking attendance at voluntary workouts, and there's nothing wrong with missing voluntary workouts. You just can't be punished for missing them.

Presumably, the NCAA heard the tapes, knows exactly what was said and in what tone it was spoken, and decided that it violated the rules.

[King Barry's Back]

What I'm assuming is that Martinez realizes that he is now coaching at a major university that is constantly under the NCAA spotlight, with a real shot at a national championship next year, and that he knows the rules of game and will abide by them.

No player should ever get to the point where the thought even crosses his mind, "Hey I know. I'll just record this behavior and report it to the compliance office like they told me I should do when I went through orientation."

It should never get to that point with any Division 1 level coach, ok granted, but especially not at OU. Not with our illustrious relationship with NCAA.

If the kid is lazy, ok fine. He won't see one second on the field with that attitude. Not with the talent he's got around him.

Now, here's the glaring issue. This one certain player taped the conversation. If this player missed one practice, and got a few inoccuous comments about "commitment" and "excelling" through year-round workouts, HOW DID THE TAPE COME INTO EXISTENCE?

Far more likely, Coach Martinez (and maybe other coaches?) often times confront players about their off-season work out schedules. My guess is that Martinez, and probably other coaches, have been hassling players for missing "voluntary" workouts - in clear violation of the rules. This has probably been fairly routine for a number of years now, though that is only my speculation. (And this probably happens at every D-1 school.)

In any event, this player did not miss a practice, get called in to discuss it, and then accidentally hit the record button on a recorder he happened to be carrying. This scenario happened more than once, and this player THEN decided that next time he was called in, he would be ready to record the conversation.

He then went to the compliance office. He may even have discussed an earlier event with the compliance office, and was told that without the exact language used they couldn't make a ruling.

I think there is much more to this story than has yet surfaced, and I think more is going to come out.

[Post #994!]

[Leroy Lizard]

I think the real story is that OU has a compliance department that does its job (at least since Bomar).

Ohio State doesn't. (At least our players know the rules.)

[King Barry's Back]

I have a class with a player that plays in the secondary, I wont mention his name. I heard someone ask him about it and he said almost all the players complained because they knew it was a rules violation and the way he put it they were being pushed to hard for offseason workouts and they were tired of it. He said the same thing happened last year but it never hit the news, it was kept as an inside thing.

Oh, crap. This is the scenario I have been most worried about.

Why is this the "doomsday scenario"? 1. Signs of a disgruntled team. 2. Signs of player/coach tensions. 3. Signs of laziness and lack of commitment from the players. 4. Signs of lack of respect from the coaches. 5. VERY STRONG EVIDENCE OF LONG_TERM NCAA VIOLATIONS BY THE ENTIRE COACHING STAFF WITH THE FULL KNOWLEDGE AND BLESSING OF COACH ROBERT STOOPS HIMSELF.

Let this "week off" hand slap be the end of it, puh-leeeze.

[Mad Dog Madsen]

What?

[King Barry's Back]

Doesn't matter. You gain nothing by doing so, and all you create is a bitter player with an axe to grind. After he graduates, he is free to make any sort of allegation he wants about the program.

You cannot allow your emotions to affect your decision-making. I had a student who made a false accusation about me once (Allegation: I purposely lost an exam when she, in fact, never took it.) I made damn sure that the student's grades were as accurate as possible from there on. Yeah, I was pissed at her, but you just can't operate like a Teamster thug in these situations.

Its' called PROFESSIONALISM.

Besides, the player didn't do anything wrong. Why punish him?

Yeah, I have taught at a couple of major universities. I got into an argument with one student, who considered filing a complaint against me. The guy clearly earned an "A" in the class, and he got it. Once he got an "A", it turned out that all he really cared about was the grade and the whole thing disappeared.

It was fortunate for me that he did earn an "A", because if his grade had been something less, there probably would have been a complaint -- and even though I would have been exonerated, there would still have been a stain against me, and maybe even against him as well.

Sounds like this player made and submitted the recording as part of a plot by several conspiring players.

Let's fix the problem and move on.

[CrimsonCommando]

Because I have classes with the players and asked one of them about what was going on.

There were four younger players asked to falsify their practice logs, repeatedly. There were offensive and defensive players involved, good ones. They were getting ripped by their positon coaches for not stating they practiced less, when they actually practiced more. One of the players had an iphone with a recording app and recorded a coach twisting off. They didn't think anyone of any authority would belive them. The players are not at fault. But they will have to pay for it with extra hard workouts. The dilemma is how much over-working beyond the established rules do you tolerate to secure a championship season?

[CrimsonCommando]

Boomer!! apparently got the correct info on this one.

[Shakadoodoo]

I agree that the rules should be followed and I am glad that they are taking care of the issue. They are doing their job.
At the same time I am not sure why he had to record the coaches to get that response. Why could he have not just told them.
In any case - from a coaches point of view... The only way to stay on top is to do extra. Everyone in college has talent - like Coach Able told us, the champions are the ones who do extra without anyone telling them to. The ones who stay after practice and run 10 extra stadiums or go out and run 4 miles - to I35 and back - without anyone telling them to. These are the type of people that become great -
If I as a coach have to do what it takes to make them understand this... I will do so. Because it is also a life lesson. You can not get complacent and lazy when you have goals to accomplish.
None of us really know what happened but many kids are cry babies and do not understand the importance of staying on top of your game and always striving to be better.
If they get a job on Sundays - they will have to do this to stay on top. Those players are not making millions for nothing They must be completely dedicated to their craft. And in the end that is what the coaches are training many of the players for. And even the players that don't make it to the NFL - it is still a good life lesson - to be successful at anything - rather it is football, a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, ect...... it takes HARD WORK! Another thing Coach Able told us.... "There is only one house on easy street... that's the poor house" That is a life lesson that I carry with me 'till this day and I teach my kids the same thing. In college I thought that Coach Able and Coach Stanley were the biggest azz holes in the world but they taught me to be a man (as well as others)
So I do understand where the coaches are coming from as well!

[BoulderSooner79]

...
The dilemma is how much over-working beyond the established rules do you tolerate to secure a championship season?

I see no dilemma here - the answer is none. The rules are clearly written and apply to all teams; follow them. The coaches are the paid professionals that should know the rules and adhere to them. The players should feel confident that if they do as the coaches ask, there will be no issues. I'm not saying they shouldn't know the rules as well, but their motivation is to get playing time and the coaches control that. The thing that is worrisome here is that 4 coaches are mentioned by name as knowingly disregarding the rules. I cannot imagine that any player arrived on campus wanting to document a rules violation by a coach and bothering to go through a reporting process - they want to play football. Obviously, I'm speculating like everyone else and maybe it is just one guy being a doosh. But even if it is, the coaches' disregard of the rules has to be fixed by Bob - it has the potential to devastate the program.

[OUNC06]

But even if it is, the coaches' disregard of the rules has to be fixed by Bob - it has the potential to devastate the program.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Minor violation has been reported to the NCAA. It has been corrected and everyone is moving on.

[Leroy Lizard]

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Minor violation has been reported to the NCAA. It has been corrected and everyone is moving on.

It hasn't been corrected until the players and the NCAA think it has been corrected. It matters nothing what the coaches, fans, or compliance director think.

[BoulderSooner79]

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Minor violation has been reported to the NCAA. It has been corrected and everyone is moving on.

This is not a minor infraction on the order of an extra text message - they whole team had to miss a week of guided workouts. This mole hill has the potential to be a mountain unless your second statement is correct and it has been corrected. The concern, at least on my part, it that this was not a simple mistake or oversight - it was our coaches ignoring rules.

[cleller]

Here we have the OU team plinking peashooters straight at the NCAA, and promptly getting slapped with this week off penalty.

Meanwhile in the SEC and PAC 10 there is heavy artillery screaming overhead day and night year after year and the NCAA doesn't seem to notice.

I don't know who's in the wrong over the whole practice thing, but I can't see someone like a Tinker Owens or Joe Washington recording their coaches.

These young whippersnappers don't know the first thing......OOH! my bursitis!

[MamaMia]

You actually think they would sit the best player?

If all other things are equal then the guy that participated would probably get the start...

Unless the coaches are f'n idiots... What does that have to do with me asking Boomer!! how he knew this...
Many of the starters from last year were complaining about this last year and still saw the field so I dont think thats the case.

[Boomer!!]

Good question, lol

[Boomer!!]

This really causes me to bristle. I was probably the classic example of a guy who 'went that extra mile' back when I was playing competitive sports, hence the reason why I was a team captain in everything I did. Sure, I probably had a few extra natural abilities that would have made me a starter anyway, but the fact was, even then, I still had to move that extra mile of effort around my real world real life responsibilities. And that wasn't always on the timeline the coaches wanted it be. Hey we all have our sob stories. I had responsibilities due to life circumstances that were far higher priority to me than football, track and field, and weightlifting (and I was still able to excel in these disciplines).

The thing is we don't know what is going on in these student's lives; what dreams they have, what responsibilities they have outside of football and student life, what demons they are fighting. But I do know that it is a big assumption to expect that each one of these kids' number one goal in everything they are doing at the University of Oklahoma is to win you, me and all of the fans posting on this thread and message board another national championship. There is more to life for most of them. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is absolutely normal and in fact it is probably quite healthy. It gives perspective on just how important, special, and rare a championship is. Some of these young men probably have that superlative level of dedication and that's great, for them and for us. We just need a few....

We should plan on winning a national title next year with this team as motley a crew as it is. I truly believe we can... unless ofcourse we get a post-season ban.


Great post! I personally know a lot of people who will be starting and believe me there is nothing more than they want than to win a championship! Forget this "they dont go the extra mile" crap. Most people here dont know what these kids go through. Between studies, workout, and practice if a guy wants to sit on his couch for a couple hours and watch some damn sportscenter then more power to him. These guys work their *** off believe me. Cut them some damn slack people...

[Leroy Lizard]

Great post! I personally know a lot of people who will be starting and believe me there is nothing more than they want than to win a championship! Forget this "they dont go the extra mile" crap. Most people here dont know what these kids go through. Between studies, workout, and practice if a guy wants to sit on his couch for a couple hours and watch some damn sportscenter then more power to him. These guys work their *** off believe me. Cut them some damn slack people...

I would love to see the guts on some of those who chide the players for not working out enough.*


* Okay, maybe I wouldn't.

[sooner59]

This really causes me to bristle. I was probably the classic example of a guy who 'went that extra mile' back when I was playing competitive sports, hence the reason why I was a team captain in everything I did. Sure, I probably had a few extra natural abilities that would have made me a starter anyway, but the fact was, even then, I still had to move that extra mile of effort around my real world real life responsibilities. And that wasn't always on the timeline the coaches wanted it be. Hey we all have our sob stories. I had responsibilities due to life circumstances that were far higher priority to me than football, track and field, and weightlifting (and I was still able to excel in these disciplines).

The thing is we don't know what is going on in these student's lives; what dreams they have, what responsibilities they have outside of football and student life, what demons they are fighting. But I do know that it is a big assumption to expect that each one of these kids' number one goal in everything they are doing at the University of Oklahoma is to win you, me and all of the fans posting on this thread and message board another national championship. There is more to life for most of them. And there is nothing wrong with that. It is absolutely normal and in fact it is probably quite healthy. It gives perspective on just how important, special, and rare a championship is. Some of these young men probably have that superlative level of dedication and that's great, for them and for us. We just need a few....

We should plan on winning a national title next year with this team as motley a crew as it is. I truly believe we can... unless ofcourse we get a post-season ban.

You're right. Good post. I sometimes I go on a rant because I ate, slept, and breathed football in high school and a state championship was my highest goal. I wanted that bad. I didn't even really think about college until after my senior season was over. I didn't have the size nor talent to compete at a higher level. I pushed myself to the limit to be the best I could possibly be because I knew my time was limited and it was my ultimate goal. In hindsight, that was dumb....but then again, I was a dumb teenager. I realize there is more to life to these guys and I agree I was too harsh. But I still don't like the way it all went down, by the coaches or the player. Sounds like both need to grow up a little. But I hope that those who may not be starters push themselves hard enough to try to become "next-level" players if that is their goal. I hate seeing talent wasted because they have to play beer pong at a frat house, like some players in the past 2 years, which I won't name. It happens, and tons of people know it. I just hope they aren't missing voluntary workouts for similar reasons this time.

[Rocko]

http://media.ccomrcdn.com/media/station_content/727/110225_Sam_Bradford_1298686765_13615.mp3
An interview with Sam Bradford

Towards the end of the interview Sam comments on the whole situation.

[sooner59]

I wonder if Sam knows who it was...

If he does, and he is disappointed, then that may be saying something. But who knows.

[Leroy Lizard]

I wonder if Sam knows who it was...

If he does, and he is disappointed, then that may be saying something. But who knows.

:confused:

[sooner59]

:confused:

Maybe Sam knows the person and his background/personal issues. Sam said he went through the voluntary workouts and put in the work, and for a player to not put in the work, and then call out the coach....is disappointing. Regardless of the rules and if they were broken or not, IF, and that is the key word....IF Sam knows what is going on and is disappointed, then I take it as a let down by the player. Now given, there is no evidence that Sam knows, but he would just have to make one phone call if he wanted to know. I'm just saying that if he doesn't know, then take it with a grain of salt because maybe he doesn't know what is going on with the player either. But if he does, then that would say something about the player to me. Just interesting that he said that the way he did. No evidence of anything, though. Just interesting.

[MamaMia]

:confused:Yes, Liz. Sam the man Bradford, who we all highly respect is disappointed that a player felt like he needed to turn a coach in. Maybe you need to lecture him in the importance of a team player ratting out a naughty coach? :pop:

[mainline13]

Leroy, you honestly don't think that the player would get behind his teammates if he doesn't make it to off-season workouts? The off-season is when 90% of your strength and conditioning is developed. Missing the voluntary workouts would have a definite impact in the players skill development.

I still think it would come down to punishment. If the coaches instituted a systematic punishment for missing voluntary workouts, that would be a big NO-NO. But as anyone who's played competitive sports knows, the more you work out correctly, the better you get.


Not attending voluntary off-season workouts comes with built-in, automatic punishment, just like you state.

So as long as we recruit kids who have a decent work ethic - as much as we can, anyway - the coaches don't ever need to do anything about this.

And once in a great while, when a Marcus Dupree comes along, someone who doesn't fall behind from missing workouts, by all means, play him!

[SoonerMom2]

Like I said earlier James Hale said it was a backup who did this and the players will take of it themselves. He said the coaches and the team know who it is. When that player meets Travis Lewis, I would expect him to find another school in the fall. One look from him would do it for most people without him saying a word.

You don't record a coach and expect everything to be all nicey, nice when spring practice starts. A lot of players on this team are aiming for the National Championship and one rat needs to leave the team -- how could you trust someone like that? Is he going to record what goes on in the locker room and give it ESPN next?

Low class to record any coach -- not like it is a major issue -- kid sounds pretty lazy who did the recording and if he thought this would buy him playing time forget it. Excuse me but I think recording a coach and then turning him into compliance was hitting below the belt. If I was a member of that team, I would never speak to him again.

[SoonerMom2]

Yes, Liz. Sam the man Bradford, who we all highly respect is disappointed that a player felt like he needed to turn a coach in. Maybe you need to lecture him in the importance of a team player ratting out a naughty coach? :pop:

Very well said! Cannot believe the comments backing a player who recorded a coach. Would you want to be around this guy wondering if he is recording you next?

[Leroy Lizard]

Very well said! Cannot believe the comments backing a player who recorded a coach. Would you want to be around this guy wondering if he is recording you next?

Don't break NCAA rules and you don't have to worry about it.

I agree, btw, that recording the coach sounds a bit extreme, but I'm not sure what motivated it. Was this a setup over a personal grudge?

Possible scenario: The player informed the university, and when asked about it the coach lied. So the player recorded the coach. If this happened, then the coach is at fault for lying to the university.


Yes, Liz. Sam the man Bradford, who we all highly respect is disappointed that a player felt like he needed to turn a coach in. Maybe you need to lecture him in the importance of a team player ratting out a naughty coach? :pop:

It sounds as if Sam doesn't know much about what happened. (And why would he?)

There is no "ratting out" here. The compliance director is an OU employee who reports to the athletic director. He does not work for the NCAA. His job is to accumulate knowledge about what is taking place and advice the athletic department on what it should do to stay out of trouble with the NCAA.

If a company hires an OSHA compliance director, it expects its employees to inform the director of any transgressions so that OSHA doesn't nail the company with huge fines. Sometimes the compliance director advises the company to self-report violations, but that is the company's decision. But the company cannot stay out of OSHA trouble if the employees clam up out of fear of being called "snitches."

If the OSHA compliance director worked for OSHA, that would be different. In that case, the employee is not working in the best interests of the company, his employer.

For example, when you empty wastepaper baskets at your own employment, you may spot discarded paper that indicates your manager is putting the company in peril. It is your responsibility to tell the employer, even if it causes a manager to get fired. That's because you work for the company, not the manager.

The student-athlete's primary responsibility is to the university, not the individual coach!

[Leroy Lizard]

Like I said earlier James Hale said it was a backup who did this and the players will take of it themselves. He said the coaches and the team know who it is. When that player meets Travis Lewis, I would expect him to find another school in the fall. One look from him would do it for most people without him saying a word.

Yeah, but Adam James was supposedly going to be discarded faster than a prom dress, but the last time I looked he's still on the team.

This team vigilantism rarely works out the way fans expect it. The player may get a few dirty looks, but likely nothing more.

Reason: OU is a team, not a group of individual punks. You do what's best for the team, and putting this episode behind them will go a lot farther toward winning than exacting petty revenge.

It's the same in business. You let the management worry about dishing out punishment.

[MamaMia]

Very well said! Cannot believe the comments backing a player who recorded a coach. Would you want to be around this guy wondering if he is recording you next?

Exactly. Nobody I ever played sports with would want him on our team. You just don't put your teams fate in jeopardy like that. He cant be trusted. If a team doesn't have trust among themselves then they don't have the chemistry needed to succeed at a high level. We're talking about a guy who copped an attitude over something so petty as workouts. :rolleyes:

Its a no brainier that when he pulled that recording out he was doing so as an intimidation tactic against his own coach. The coaches had no choice at that point but to bring it out in the open. It was either that or possibly be blackmailed by this tool, while living in fear that he would turn his recording over to the NCAA. If he would have done that, along with telling the NCAA that the coaches knew about his tape yet didn't report the incident, Lord only knows what may have happened to us.

[MamaMia]

Like I said earlier James Hale said it was a backup who did this and the players will take of it themselves. He said the coaches and the team know who it is. When that player meets Travis Lewis, I would expect him to find another school in the fall. One look from him would do it for most people without him saying a word.

You don't record a coach and expect everything to be all nicey, nice when spring practice starts. A lot of players on this team are aiming for the National Championship and one rat needs to leave the team -- how could you trust someone like that? Is he going to record what goes on in the locker room and give it ESPN next?

Low class to record any coach -- not like it is a major issue -- kid sounds pretty lazy who did the recording and if he thought this would buy him playing time forget it. Excuse me but I think recording a coach and then turning him into compliance was hitting below the belt. If I was a member of that team, I would never speak to him again.Come to think of it, didn't the team members send a player packing a couple of seasons ago? This guy would have to have a lot of cajones to even want to stay with his teammates knowing what he did.

[Leroy Lizard]

Exactly. Nobody I ever played sports with would want him on our team. You just don't put your teams fate in jeopardy like that.

He didn't. The compliance director did. The compliance director did not have to file a report with the NCAA if he thought it was in the university's best interests not to.

Why do we place these decisions in the hands of the compliance director and not the players or coaches? Because he knows the rules better, understands the likely outcomes better, and works for the university, not for his own self-interests. That is why players need to keep him informed. If they don't and instead rely on a juvenile snitch philosophy like you, the compliance director can't help the university and, sooner or later, something horrible happens.

I don't care what the players' teammates think, nor his coaches. The real question is: What did the university want him to do? That's all that matters here.

I don't know when you will figure that out.

[MamaMia]

He didn't. The compliance director did. The compliance director did not have to file a report with the NCAA if he thought it was in the university's best interests not to.

Why do we place these decisions in the hands of the compliance director and not the players or coaches? Because he knows the rules better, understands the likely outcomes better, and works for the university, not for his own self-interests. That is why players need to keep him informed. If they don't and instead rely on a juvenile snitch philosophy like you, the compliance director can't help the university and, sooner or later, something horrible happens.

I don't care what the players' teammates think, nor his coaches. The real question is: What did the university want him to do? That's all that matters here.

I don't know when you will figure that out. You just don't get it. The rule the coaches broke is small compared to the breach of trust of which the player is guilty. He threw the whole team under the bus. Screw him.

[Leroy Lizard]

You just don't get it. The rule the coaches broke is small compared to the breach of trust of which the player is guilty.

This isn't the Mob. The player's allegiances are to the entity that provides him a free education and pays his room and board.

If an employee of mine failed to disclose something I needed to know, the fact that he didn't want to "squeal" on his coworkers is of no consolation. If he owes his allegiances to his coworkers, let them pay his salary.

[MamaMia]

This isn't the Mob. The player's allegiances are to the entity that provides him a free education and pays his room and board.

If an employee of mine failed to disclose something I needed to know, the fact that he didn't want to "squeal" on his coworkers is of no consolation. If he owes his allegiances to his coworkers, let them pay his salary. Look, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

[Leroy Lizard]

Look, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.

If that's your response then I suggest putting me back on ignore.

[MamaMia]

If that's your response then I suggest putting me back on ignore.

Theres nothing left to say.

[sooner59]

If everyone put the people they disagreed with on ignore, this board would being very sparse....and nobody would know you even posted here Leroy. :D

[Leroy Lizard]

If everyone put the people they disagreed with on ignore, this board would being very sparse...

You see... I'm good for SoonerFans.

[mainline13]

Very well said! Cannot believe the comments backing a player who recorded a coach. Would you want to be around this guy wondering if he is recording you next?

I have been a bit out of touch, but a few days back, it was all speculation whether someone proactively recorded the coach, or whether the coach left a voice mail. But that almost becomes moot next to what I see as a larger issue.

Are we becoming the program which our detractors have always said we were? Are we perennial cheaters? If our fan base is lambasting a player who followed the rules to the letter, then really, what are we?

What happened was a "secondary violation," which doesn't get much more than a wrist slap when self-reported. However, when several secondary violations are not self-reported, but come to light under investigation, the finding would likely be "failure to monitor" and the penalty would be much worse. I would much rather that we self-report the minor stuff.

Y'all say you wouldn't want this guy on your team. Maybe, in part, that's because - not participating in voluntary workouts - he doesn't have a good work ethic.

I'm thinking I might rather have him than you, as my teammate. He doesn't have a good work ethic, but y'all don't have ethics.

[Leroy Lizard]

I have been a bit out of touch, but a few days back, it was all speculation whether someone proactively recorded the coach, or whether the coach left a voice mail. But that almost becomes moot next to what I see as a larger issue.

Are we becoming the program which our detractors have always said we were? Are we perennial cheaters? If our fan base is lambasting a player who followed the rules to the letter, then really, what are we?

What happened was a "secondary violation," which doesn't get much more than a wrist slap when self-reported. However, when several secondary violations are not self-reported, but come to light under investigation, the finding would likely be "failure to monitor" and the penalty would be much worse. I would much rather that we self-report the minor stuff.

Y'all say you wouldn't want this guy on your team. Maybe, in part, that's because - not participating in voluntary workouts - he doesn't have a good work ethic.

I'm thinking I might rather have him than you, as my teammate. He doesn't have a good work ethic, but y'all don't have ethics.

I wouldn't direct this at OU. Every team has fans (and players) that cannot understand ethics. This middle-school "rat fink" bogey-man plays well among those who reside at the bottom of the food chain. But once he or she becomes an administrator things change. All of a sudden having an employee withholding information places his or her finances in jeopardy.

"Why didn't you tell me he was doing this?!?!"

"Because he's my friend and... and... I didn't want him to call me a rat fink."

[MamaMia]

I have been a bit out of touch, but a few days back, it was all speculation whether someone proactively recorded the coach, or whether the coach left a voice mail. But that almost becomes moot next to what I see as a larger issue.

Are we becoming the program which our detractors have always said we were? Are we perennial cheaters? If our fan base is lambasting a player who followed the rules to the letter, then really, what are we?

What happened was a "secondary violation," which doesn't get much more than a wrist slap when self-reported. However, when several secondary violations are not self-reported, but come to light under investigation, the finding would likely be "failure to monitor" and the penalty would be much worse. I would much rather that we self-report the minor stuff.

Y'all say you wouldn't want this guy on your team. Maybe, in part, that's because - not participating in voluntary workouts - he doesn't have a good work ethic.

I'm thinking I might rather have him than you, as my teammate. He doesn't have a good work ethic, but y'all don't have ethics.

What are you...Leroys troll? If thats they way you think, I'll bet you don't have a lot of friends. When you drive over the speed limit, does someone you know and trust tape you and intimidate you into realizing that it would go much better for you if you turn yourself in? Look pal. If you don't think every team on this planet doesn't commit petty violations here and there, just as I'm sure you don't always go the speed limit then you're living in La La Land.

Plus...if you have to question the Oklahoma Sooners as to whether or not what a bunch of jerks say about us is true or not, then find another team and don't let the door hit ya ...

[SoonerMom2]

Someone from TX with 22 posts thinks this kid who recorded a coach is ethical and the players would rather have him on their team even if he is lazy.

Do not believe you understand what it takes to be a team -- recording a coach to get out of workouts will not go over well with the leaders on this team or most of the players most likely about 99.9% of them. Workouts are necessary if you want to be an elite program and as a player have a chance to play in the NFL. OU is not for wimps who don't want to work out.

What is ethical about getting a coach on a recording when you most likely set him up to say what you wanted him to say and then head straight for compliance. All to get out of working out so much?

Wouldn't want a snitch on my team -- secondary violation and he records a coach. Get him out of the locker room and off the team because if he recorded one coach who is next -- Bob Stoops if he says the wrong thing.

We saw this with Texas Tech when Leach got set up and discovered after he had been fired that some of the video was a total set-up and didn't happen.

This kid was obviously I, I, I all the way and only cared about himself. He chose the wrong sport IMHO.

[Leroy Lizard]

What are you...Leroys troll? If thats they way you think, I'll bet you don't have a lot of friends. When you drive over the speed limit, does someone you know and trust tape you and intimidate you into realizing that it would go much better for you if you turn yourself in?

My driving over the speed limit doesn't place your employer in jeopardy.

If you're a coworker and having too many speeding tickets places the company's ability to land government contracts in jeopardy, then I think you are very much obligated to tell my employer if I drive like a maniac. My actions endanger the financial health of not only the employer but everyone that works for it.

Otherwise, it's just cowardice. You're afraid to do the right thing because you will have to face me every day.


Look pal. If you don't think every team on this planet doesn't commit petty violations here and there, just as I'm sure you don't always go the speed limit then you're living in La La Land.

The seriousness of the violations is not up to the employee (or player) to decide. He reported the violations to the man who is in the best position to make that decision.

[Leroy Lizard]

What is ethical about getting a coach on a recording when you most likely set him up to say what you wanted him to say and then head straight for compliance. All to get out of working out so much?

Wow. We are now jumping to a lot of conclusions.

No matter. If the coach is ethical, he isn't going to get caught on tape saying something unethical.


Wouldn't want a snitch on my team -- secondary violation and he records a coach. Get him out of the locker room and off the team because if he recorded one coach who is next -- Bob Stoops if he says the wrong thing.

As long as the player goes to the compliance director, and not the NCAA, I have no problems with that. Otherwise you're asking the players to go along with a coverup. Those never work out very well.

"Coach Switzer! I hate to tell you this, but I think our starting QB is engaging in some heavy drug use and is looking to start selling it."

"You're a snitch! Don't you know that it's better to protect your teammate and not let me know these things!!!"

Please drop the "snitch" angle. It makes us look like juvenile delinquents who have never been raised properly.

[MamaMia]

Leroy, the dude had to of been off his rocker if he thought for a second that his actions were not going to result in OU having to self report. Surely he didn't think anyone would trust him not to call the NCAA himself after pulling that stunt.

[mainline13]

What are you...Leroys troll? If thats they way you think, I'll bet you don't have a lot of friends. When you drive over the speed limit, does someone you know and trust tape you and intimidate you into realizing that it would go much better for you if you turn yourself in? Look pal. If you don't think every team on this planet doesn't commit petty violations here and there, just as I'm sure you don't always go the speed limit then you're living in La La Land.

Plus...if you have to question the Oklahoma Sooners as to whether or not what a bunch of jerks say about us is true or not, then find another team and don't let the door hit ya ...

Every team does it, so it's ok. R-i-i-i-g-h-t.

And just so you'll know, I have never been pulled over for a moving violation. Have I ever exceeded the limit? Yes, and every time, I knew that it was wrong. Never once did I claim that I had to, because everyone else was speeding.

[BoulderSooner79]

I'm amazed most folks here think the player telling the compliance director is the big problem here. I'm not thrilled it came down to that, but we have no idea why it did. We speculate it was just a lazy player or unhappy one or something like that - and maybe it was. But the fact that *multiple* assistant coaches were ignoring clearly written rules seems like a much bigger deal to me. I'd much rather it come out early internally than on some horn's fan radio show a week before the season started. I don't care what other programs do, that's not an excuse. We have an elite program and it's going to be watched like a hawk, so we have to do things right. I know we'll report ongoing secondary violations like everyone else because there are so many rules and some are obscure or vaguely written. But allowable practice time is not one of those and the NCAA takes those seriously.

[MamaMia]

I'm amazed most folks here think the player telling the compliance director is the big problem here. I'm not thrilled it came down to that, but we have no idea why it did. We speculate it was just a lazy player or unhappy one or something like that - and maybe it was. But the fact that *multiple* assistant coaches were ignoring clearly written rules seems like a much bigger deal to me. I'd much rather it come out early internally than on some horn's fan radio show a week before the season started. I don't care what other programs do, that's not an excuse. We have an elite program and it's going to be watched like a hawk, so we have to do things right. I know we'll report ongoing secondary violations like everyone else because there are so many rules and some are obscure or vaguely written. But allowable practice time is not one of those and the NCAA takes those seriously.They weren't practicing. They were exercising.
Every team does it, so it's ok. R-i-i-i-g-h-t.

And just so you'll know, I have never been pulled over for a moving violation. Have I ever exceeded the limit? Yes, and every time, I knew that it was wrong. Never once did I claim that I had to,[speed over the limit] because everyone else was speeding.

Considering the fact that you are still among the living, I take it you have never driven in Dallas? :D

[101sooner]

I tripple dog dare you to drive the speed limit on LBJ.

[BoulderSooner79]

They weren't practicing. They were exercising.



Can I assume that was tongue in cheek? I'll rephrase: there are clearly written limits on the amount time players can be under the supervision of the coaches. They are different at different times of the year, but the motivation is the same: schools cannot gain competitive advantage over each other by imposing longer hours on the athletes (conditioning/practicing/whatever).

I have to believe (or want to believe?) we all want our team to follow the rules. And that we are not advocating a "it's okay if we don't get caught" policy. Maybe people just don't want to be seen agreeing with LL and it just comes across that way.

[Leroy Lizard]

Leroy, the dude had to of been off his rocker if he thought for a second that his actions were not going to result in OU having to self report. Surely he didn't think anyone would trust him not to call the NCAA himself after pulling that stunt.

You're stretching. The compliance director is only going to self-report if he feels it is in the best interests of the university. Give him the opportunity to make that decision, rather than have it blow up in TexAgs.

I swear we'll never ****ing learn.

[Leroy Lizard]

Maybe people just don't want to be seen agreeing with LL and it just comes across that way.

That's about 90% of it. :D

[BoulderSooner79]

That's about 90% of it. :D

Don't go getting me all neg-spek'd :eek:

Aw, what the heck, I ain't skeerd.

[sooner59]

That's about 90% of it. :D

IN! :D

[MamaMia]

This all started because the coaching staff was clearly being hypocritical about 'voluntary' workouts. A leader sacrifices the moral authority of his or her position when ones actions do not match ones words. They can't preach compliance one day and then practice a 'wink and a nod' approach to something like voluntary workouts the next. Players see right through that stuff. Unchecked, it won't take long before we have a mercenary 'me' vice 'team' environment in the program because this kind of thing erodes any foundation of trust between coaches and players.

This is not good...for the team, the program, or the university and the stink is going to last a while.

In your red neg comment you claimed I thought it was okay that the rules were broken. I never said that. I said it was petty. I said what the snitch did was worse than what the coaches did, so back at ya. I double dog dare you to start an even steven neg war with me. Name your number. :D

[sooner59]

Dean in 3...2...1...

[SoonerKnight]

In your red neg comment you claimed I thought it was okay that the rules were broken. I never said that. I said it was petty. I said what the snitch did was worse than what the coaches did, so back at ya. I double dog dare you to start an even steven neg war with me. Name your number. :D

MAybe Mamma's been busy and hadn't heard the news!!! LOL! :pop:

[BoulderSooner79]

In your red neg comment you claimed I thought it was okay that the rules were broken. I never said that. I said it was petty. I said what the snitch did was worse than what the coaches did, so back at ya. I double dog dare you to start an even steven neg war with me. Name your number. :D

Now there's a statement that with which I absolutely disagree. What the player(s) did was disappointing. What the coaches were doing was WRONG.

[MamaMia]

Now there's a statement that with which I absolutely disagree. . What the coaches were doing was WRONG.Thats fine, and I respect your opinion however, I think what the player did was WRONG and what the coaches did was disappointing.

[BoulderSooner79]

Thats fine, and I respect your opinion however, I think what the player did was WRONG and what the coaches did was disappointing.

You can believe what the player did was wrong even though it was according to procedure and I'll respect that. But what the coaches were doing was against a clearly written set of rules that is part of their job to uphold. That's one of those black and white kind of wrongs and the NCAA agrees (who is the only group that really counts).

[Soonerjeepman]

I'm amazed most folks here think the player telling the compliance director is the big problem here. I'm not thrilled it came down to that, but we have no idea why it did. We speculate it was just a lazy player or unhappy one or something like that - and maybe it was. But the fact that *multiple* assistant coaches were ignoring clearly written rules seems like a much bigger deal to me. I'd much rather it come out early internally than on some horn's fan radio show a week before the season started. I don't care what other programs do, that's not an excuse. We have an elite program and it's going to be watched like a hawk, so we have to do things right. I know we'll report ongoing secondary violations like everyone else because there are so many rules and some are obscure or vaguely written. But allowable practice time is not one of those and the NCAA takes those seriously.

this...

I thought there were several issues..

#1 player getting pressure to do "vol" workouts and wasn't..(the phone taping)

#2 players fudging LESS time than they actually were doing...changing logs or not signing in...yes/no?

bottom line is we had 4, yes 4, coaches doing something that they are NOT SUPPOSE to do..THEY WERE WRONG...so tired of little crap always coming up...

[VMG]

Thats fine, and I respect your opinion however, I think what the player did was WRONG and what the coaches did was disappointing.

Wow, go on travel and miss all the 'fun'...

Have you ever been in a position of leadership... responsible for the actions of others, and accountable to some governing authority for those actions? I can tell you from experience that what one says is rendered essentially null and void if ones actions are inconsistent with ones words. If compliance is 'the word' and non-compliance is the demonstrated behavior -- that will eventually be a problem. Perhaps it is good that something like this occurred before such circumstances became a malignancy for the program.

Characterizations of the player as a snitch, etc are based purely on speculation about the exact circumstances wherein he was, or felt, compelled to report. Clearly however, the coaches were in the wrong (by whatever degree is irrelevant) -- because when it comes to compliance they are in the position of authority and are rightfully held to the higher standard. If the player had reported a falsehood, that would be a different matter. I expect that a leader like Bob Stoops will find a way to make this a departure point for positive things going forward.

[Sooner Cal]

The idea of limiting self-improvement is so un-American to me. To me, it's like telling someone they can't study for a test.

Maybe the NCAA needs to quit the charade that college football is what it used to be 50 years ago.

[Leroy Lizard]

The idea of limiting self-improvement is so un-American to me. To me, it's like telling someone they can't study for a test.

Let me put this in a way you'll appreciate.

You could draw a similar analogy to steroid use. Could we not call that self-improvement? Sure, I can get cancer, but I'm willing to take that risk so why should anyone else be able to stop me? It's a free country, right? As long as I get a doctor to sign off, it's cool, right?

We limit team practices for the good of the athlete. All those measures get tossed out the window once an unscrupulous coach begins to take advantage of voluntary practices and turn them into involuntary practices.

The NCAA rules are reasonable and absolutely needed. Skirting the rules is unjustified.

By the way, you brought up the test analogy. Consider the Wonderlic, which is a timed test. All athletes are given the same time to take the test, because the speed in which someone can arrive at a logical conclusion is a partial measure of intelligence. But suppose a coach somehow allows his players to take longer on the test than what is allowed. According to your argument, that's fine because all he is doing is allowing the players a better opportunity to do better.


Maybe the NCAA needs to quit the charade that college football is what it used to be 50 years ago.

This is faulty logic: If there are problems today, then we should abandon all attempts to fix the problem and just let the system spiral out of control.

That's what you are arguing.

[Collier11]

No but some of their so called rules arent relevant to today and some of their rules could be judged with common sense and they arent...also, they dont apply them equally to everyone

[Leroy Lizard]

No but some of their so called rules arent relevant to today and some of their rules could be judged with common sense and they arent...also, they dont apply them equally to everyone

I asked before which rules were unreasonable and no one could tell me. Do you have any in mind? (And I'm not talking about game-day rules, which fans will always bitch about.)

I agree that they don't always apply the rules equally to everyone.

[Collier11]

Well, just off the top of my head I think it is complete BS that a school gets hammered when 1 or 2 or 5 or however many players screw up but typically the coach is allowed to go on and do as he pleases.

I think stupid things like punishing an entire team for the actions of a few is unreasonable and unfair, even in the USC issues.

I think Dez Bryant getting pretty much a year off for lying about doing nothing wrong is ridiculous, he absolutely shouldve been supsended for lying but the fact that he actually did nothing wrong makes his season suspension laughable.


There are others, I would have to think about it

I realize life isnt fair and I realize that those rules are in place for a reason but I also think that common sense should play a role

[Leroy Lizard]

Well, just off the top of my head I think it is complete BS that a school gets hammered when 1 or 2 or 5 or however many players screw up but typically the coach is allowed to go on and do as he pleases.

I think stupid things like punishing an entire team for the actions of a few is unreasonable and unfair, even in the USC issues.

I think Dez Bryant getting pretty much a year off for lying about doing nothing wrong is ridiculous, he absolutely shouldve been supsended for lying but the fact that he actually did nothing wrong makes his season suspension laughable.


There are others, I would have to think about it

I realize life isnt fair and I realize that those rules are in place for a reason but I also think that common sense should play a role

So what rules do you have issue with? I think we can all agree that the NCAA has at times been questionable in the punishments it meters out, but do we have any issues with its rules? I don't.

[Collier11]

Id say my issues are more with the way that they enforce the rules...as for specific rules, Id have to think about it.

I can tell you that for one, if I had played D1 I woulda been ineligible by rule because my coach took me out to eat a few times and not the whole team...

[BoulderSooner79]

The idea of limiting self-improvement is so un-American to me. To me, it's like telling someone they can't study for a test.

Maybe the NCAA needs to quit the charade that college football is what it used to be 50 years ago.

That's silly - the players can workout, do drills, watch video every waking hour if they want to. They can get advice from the coaches during the time they are allowed that they use when on their own. The rule that limits mandatory conditioning time is much more relevant today than 50 years ago because there is literally *millions* of dollars on the line. I don't doubt for a second that an ambitious position coach, who dreams of landing a Stoops-like jobs, would work players like slaves to help him get there. The point of this rule is very simple - teams all get the same amount of coaching time and gaining an advantage by longer hours is not allowed. This limit *helps* the coaches because it gives them a well defined foundation with which to work and eases the paranoia that other teams are doing more. It also allows them to spend time with their families and maybe even get in a round of golf.

[Leroy Lizard]

Id say my issues are more with the way that they enforce the rules...as for specific rules, Id have to think about it.

Exactly. Everyone complains about the rules, but I haven't heard anyone offer up one as an example.


I can tell you that for one, if I had played D1 I woulda been ineligible by rule because my coach took me out to eat a few times and not the whole team...

No, you would have been eligible because your coach would have made you pay for your own ****in' meal, like you should.

Cheap bastard. :D

[cccasooner2]

I can tell you that for one, if I had played D1 I woulda been ineligible by rule because my coach took me out to eat a few times and not the whole team...

Let me guess, you were the coach's son.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

I don't want to get into a shouting match with someone, but I think the problems is if the rules are so hard or vague or whatever that following them will likely see you drop out of contention, then there is likely something wrong with the rules. This voluntary/required work out arguement is a smoke screen away from the real issue, the rules have not updated with the times or the expectations of fans and universities need to be lowered if the value of a "student - athelete" is important.

Yes, the coaches and players should follow the rules and we would likely expect that to occur (don't want to get penalties). But if following the rules means fielding a team not likely to win championships, then the rules are at fault.

[VMG]

Leroy is correct -- the rules are intended, in part, to protect the players. Many, many times the 'just a little over the line' rationalizations never stop at 'just a little over the line.' And, when it's the coaches 'just a little over the line', the intuitive lesson learned by some players is that the rules don't matter as long as one doesn't get caught. In effect they start living by their own rules and eventually the system breaks down and the inevitable happens -- someone gets caught doing something way out of the box.

The coaches don't get a pass on compliance with the rules because we or they or anybody else disagree with the rules. Personally, as a practical matter the idea that a couple voluntary workouts in the spring make that much of a difference come August is a stretch. Yeah, the competitive environment today demands hard work etc; I got it -- btdt. But just like the 'little over the line' on rules, the escalation of 'hard work' in terms of time, intensity and a proportion of a player's day/week/month/year/life doesn't always stop with enough, because no one really knows where 'enough' is. If a little is good, more is always better -- it's the American way. ;)

So, someone has to impose rules on the system. Imperfect? Perhaps. Necessary? Without question.

[Leroy Lizard]

I don't want to get into a shouting match with someone, but I think the problems is if the rules are so hard or vague or whatever that following them will likely see you drop out of contention, then there is likely something wrong with the rules. This voluntary/required work out arguement is a smoke screen away from the real issue, the rules have not updated with the times or the expectations of fans and universities need to be lowered if the value of a "student - athelete" is important.

There is nothing vague or hard about NCAA rules. Besides, you have a compliance officer on campus who can clarify if you need it.

No excuses.


Yes, the coaches and players should follow the rules and we would likely expect that to occur (don't want to get penalties). But if following the rules means fielding a team not likely to win championships, then the rules are at fault.

:eek:

[pphilfran]

Id say my issues are more with the way that they enforce the rules...as for specific rules, Id have to think about it.



This makes no sense...you have issues with the way they enforce rules...yet you can't say which rules had issues in enforcement...

[BoulderSooner79]

...
Yes, the coaches and players should follow the rules and we would likely expect that to occur (don't want to get penalties). But if following the rules means fielding a team not likely to win championships, then the rules are at fault.

That makes no sense - some team is going to win every championship regardless of the rules. You must be implying that only cheaters will win. But cheaters will always have an advantage and thus the motivation to cheat is always there. That is human nature and there is no set of rules you can come up with to change it other than have no rules at all.

[Collier11]

Let me guess, you were the coach's son.

Heh, nope...


This makes no sense...you have issues with the way they enforce rules...yet you can't say which rules had issues in enforcement...

Its not that hard, I have a huge issue with the way the ncaa uses selective enforcement. You can have an issue with the way that is done and not the way the rule is written.

And I gave examples if you woulda taken the time to go back and read

[pphilfran]

Heh, nope...



Its not that hard, I have a huge issue with the way the ncaa uses selective enforcement. You can have an issue with the way that is done and not the way the rule is written.

And I gave examples if you woulda taken the time to go back and read

Sorry...must have missed em...

[Collier11]

go back a page or 2

[pphilfran]

go back a page or 2

I trust ya...but I will go back and look...

[pphilfran]

Well, just off the top of my head I think it is complete BS that a school gets hammered when 1 or 2 or 5 or however many players screw up but typically the coach is allowed to go on and do as he pleases.

I think stupid things like punishing an entire team for the actions of a few is unreasonable and unfair, even in the USC issues.

I think Dez Bryant getting pretty much a year off for lying about doing nothing wrong is ridiculous, he absolutely shouldve been supsended for lying but the fact that he actually did nothing wrong makes his season suspension laughable.


There are others, I would have to think about it

I realize life isnt fair and I realize that those rules are in place for a reason but I also think that common sense should play a role

Here it is...

I can agree with those statements...

[AlbqSooner]

Exactly. Everyone complains about the rules, but I haven't heard anyone offer up one as an example.

I thought he offered up the rule that allows a coach to go to another school - without penalty - when his team is sanctioned by the NCAA.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

That makes no sense - some team is going to win every championship regardless of the rules. You must be implying that only cheaters will win. But cheaters will always have an advantage and thus the motivation to cheat is always there. That is human nature and there is no set of rules you can come up with to change it other than have no rules at all.

I meant if there are cheaters, not if everyone follows the rules on a level playing field.

[Leroy Lizard]

I thought he offered up the rule that allows a coach to go to another school - without penalty - when his team is sanctioned by the NCAA.

First, there is no such rule.

Coaches are sanctioned by the NCAA all the time. It should happen more often than it does, but you can thank Jerry Tarkanian for that.

The school is the employer, not the coach. That's the way it is in real life; if you have an employee screw up, you're held responsible. Otherwise schools will give the green light on coaches to do as they please, knowing that the coach will take the fall if anything goes wrong.

[Leroy Lizard]

I meant if there are cheaters, not if everyone follows the rules on a level playing field.

Here is what you wrote:


Yes, the coaches and players should follow the rules and we would likely expect that to occur (don't want to get penalties). But if following the rules means fielding a team not likely to win championships, then the rules are at fault.

The very existence of cheaters does not imply that the rules are unfair, only that there are people who want to win badly enough that they are willing to ignore the rules.

One of the problems in college football is that too many coaches want to win too badly. The money and fan pressure are too much for coaches to ignore. As college football becomes more popular, expect the problems to only increase.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Here is what you wrote:



The very existence of cheaters does not imply that the rules are unfair, only that there are people who want to win badly enough that they are willing to ignore the rules.

One of the problems in college football is that too many coaches want to win too badly. The money and fan pressure are too much for coaches to ignore. As college football becomes more popular, expect the problems to only increase.

Definitely not worded eloquently...

I don't know the rules or wording, so I will take it on faith now that they are not ambiguous. I was under the impression that there may be some fudge factor in the rules in my previous readings.

Anyway, point is, I don't think we should cheat at all for anything. I was more afraid that other schools getting an unfair advantage by a cerrtain reading of an ambiguous rule. If not ambiguous and set in stone, then there is a clear performance standard and that should be met.

[meoveryouxinfinity]

talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.