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soonercruiser
2/18/2011, 01:27 PM
Since when do state budget issue become national political issues??
The latset news is that the Demoncrat Nat Committee and Obama's "Organizing For America" are organizing and busing in 25,000 teachers into Madison?

DNC playing role in Wisconsin protests
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html?showal l

http://www.barackobama.com/

Democratic National Committee reportedly behind Wisconsin protests
http://dailycaller.com/2011/02/17/democratic-national-committee-reportedly-behind-wisconsin-protests/

ABC's One-Sided Take on Wisconsin Protests Includes an Interview With Top Secret, Hidden Democrat
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/scott-whitlock/2011/02/18/abc-offers-one-sided-take-wisconsin-protests-stephanopoulos-highligh

StoopTroup
2/18/2011, 01:35 PM
Since when does an Arizona Immigration issue become National Political Issues?

If you are implying that the DNC and the current POTUS are doing this and it's something that just now is an issue...you really need to go read a history book.

Leroy Lizard
2/18/2011, 01:37 PM
Gov. Walker won't even talk to state workers about his proposal to strip them of their rights.

"Right" is the most misused term in politics.

3rdgensooner
2/18/2011, 01:39 PM
OH NOES! A Top Secret, Hidden Democrat!

badger
2/18/2011, 01:47 PM
ABC's One-Sided Take on Wisconsin Protests Includes an Interview With Top Secret, Hidden Democrat

rofl. i read your linked article --- i don't fault abc for just focusing on the protests. C-SPAN doesn't make for very good TV, so the republican side would be boring. And showing the protests doesn't mean they're showing them in a positive light. All this "Hitler" talk while they're calling in sick when they obviously aren't sick does not, IMHO, show them in a very good light.

I also lol at the fact that every midwest state gets referred to as "The Heartland." even wisconsin. i never thought of wisconsin as a heartland state. wisky is a great lakes state.

oudanny
2/18/2011, 03:04 PM
Fire them.

delhalew
2/18/2011, 03:15 PM
Fire them.

People keep saying this. It's as if they are unaware that the primary function of a union is to project inferior employees from termination.

In the private sector this can backfire when a company has to close shop due to profit loss. Luckily, the federal and state governments never seem to run out of our money to keep unions happy.

SoCaliSooner
2/18/2011, 03:30 PM
People keep saying this. It's as if they are unaware that the primary function of a union is to project inferior employees from termination.


The primary job of these workers is to do their job, not be in a union. Unions are pretty much all about the union now.

Breadburner
2/18/2011, 03:34 PM
Ya have to boink alot of kids to lose a teaching job....!!!!

Aldebaran
2/18/2011, 03:35 PM
Yeah... there's really no longer any reason for labor unions.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/16/the-watchdog-interiors-oi_n_823986.html#5_missouri-lawmaker-seeks-to-modify-child-labor-laws

SoCaliSooner
2/18/2011, 03:45 PM
Yeah... there's really no longer any reason for labor unions.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/16/the-watchdog-interiors-oi_n_823986.html#5_missouri-lawmaker-seeks-to-modify-child-labor-laws

I think that's a stretch. If a kid is in high school and wants a job, they should be able to do so. Modifying the age to 14 to get a job isn't like making a toddler do factory work.

Try again....

SCOUT
2/18/2011, 04:04 PM
Yeah... there's really no longer any reason for labor unions.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/16/the-watchdog-interiors-oi_n_823986.html#5_missouri-lawmaker-seeks-to-modify-child-labor-laws


"It's kind of a common sense thing," she tells The Huffington Post. "Right now, it's so over the top with regulations -- what businesses have to do, schools have to do. Parents should be in charge, deciding on the work ethic of their children."

Cunningham says that children are still protected by law from working in "dangerous jobs, like coal mines, with animals, with blades or involving dangerous stunts." She says that her bill simply loosens an overly broad prohibition on child labor and would allow kids to work at movie theaters, to babysit or to cut lawns, blaming the hysteria on union "misinformation" and politics.

Hopefully the unions will protect us from this gross injustice.

Midtowner
2/18/2011, 04:18 PM
Some unions are actually very good, some give unions a bad name. Take the Teamsters, for example, at least the local here in OKC. If an employee is an effup, they're probably more afraid of retribution from the union than the employer. The union will come in and set that employee straight or clear the way to get rid of 'em. Contrast that with the Postal Employees' Union (or whatever it's called)... boy oh boy they suck. They protect the hell out of absolutely terrible employees, who are sometimes even physically unable to do their work.

Unions, by and large, are a good thing in the private sector. I'm not sold that they're a good thing in the public sector.

In the private sector, the labor market is increasingly controlled by employers. This becomes especially more true when employees have no collective power. Collective bargaining actually makes the bargaining process between labor and management a much more fair process. And at the end of the day, it's just employees doing the smart thing in a free market economy. They should be looking out for their own interests.

A big part of the problem with unions recently has been that they have started to think like their employers. They look at things in the short term and not the long term. Short term squeezing the employer for every last cent beats (for some reason) making sure that the employer remains solvent.

NormanPride
2/18/2011, 04:35 PM
Yeah... there's really no longer any reason for labor unions.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/16/the-watchdog-interiors-oi_n_823986.html#5_missouri-lawmaker-seeks-to-modify-child-labor-laws

Someone didn't read the article~

mgsooner
2/18/2011, 04:45 PM
I have Cruiser on ignore, but I've come to enjoy reading the subject line of his posts. They are always good for a chuckle.

ZOMG OBAMA BEHIND AGUILERA ANTHEM FLUB??

Saul Good
2/18/2011, 05:24 PM
Not sure if this is exactly pertinent to this particular thread but since we are discussing unions, I thought I would share my favorite personal interaction with one of the many unions I deal with at work.

I used to work for an insurance company in a sales position which required me to call on unions to inquire about them offering our insurance to their folks. So anyway, I get a lunch appointment with the grand pubah of the local electrical workers union to see if I/we have a chance. After a nice steak and 18 bud lights consumed by my new friend (to my two Bud Heavy's - still have receipt to prove it) we start get to where he is opening up about how they run their operations. I will never forget how is eyes kind of glossed over and he started glaring at me as if I was the enemy while he proudly stated they "put 9 non union companies out of business in the last year and put families in the street. You are either with us or we are going to do anything we can to eliminate you. Anything."

Freaked me out. Needless to say, I no longer pursued this prospect due to the fact I had no desire to tick this guy off. Also kind of sealed the deal on my opinion of unions.

oudanny
2/18/2011, 05:31 PM
Once upon a time, unions were beneficial to workers. But the pendulum has swung too far in their direction and they are holding corporations and taxpayers hostage. There are enough federal regulations now to protect workers. Unions have become what they once were against.

soonercruiser
2/18/2011, 06:03 PM
Yeah... there's really no longer any reason for labor unions.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/16/the-watchdog-interiors-oi_n_823986.html#5_missouri-lawmaker-seeks-to-modify-child-labor-laws

Huffington Compost!!!????
GMAFB!
:rolleyes:
(Planned Parenthood Times is more like it...)

soonerscuba
2/18/2011, 06:27 PM
Huffington Compost!!!????
GMAFB!
:rolleyes:
(Planned Parenthood Times is more like it...)With Republican congressmen picking up women now, it seems they should be all in with Planned Parenthood.

3rdgensooner
2/18/2011, 06:35 PM
Huffington Compost!!!????
GMAFB!
:rolleyes:
It's certainly no newsbusters.org
:rolleyes:

soonercruiser
2/18/2011, 06:45 PM
I have Cruiser on ignore, but I've come to enjoy reading the subject line of his posts. They are always good for a chuckle.

ZOMG OBAMA BEHIND AGUILERA ANTHEM FLUB??

And you sir/mam are disengenuous, or can't read!
(I report....You decide)
The phone book is filled with Optomitrist ads.
Just sayin'.....:rolleyes:

Yah, I know, it was Boooosh's fault.

SanJoaquinSooner
2/18/2011, 07:49 PM
Some unions are actually very good, some give unions a bad name. Take the Teamsters, for example, at least the local here in OKC. If an employee is an effup, they're probably more afraid of retribution from the union than the employer. The union will come in and set that employee straight or clear the way to get rid of 'em. Contrast that with the Postal Employees' Union (or whatever it's called)... boy oh boy they suck. They protect the hell out of absolutely terrible employees, who are sometimes even physically unable to do their work.

Unions, by and large, are a good thing in the private sector. I'm not sold that they're a good thing in the public sector.

In the private sector, the labor market is increasingly controlled by employers. This becomes especially more true when employees have no collective power. Collective bargaining actually makes the bargaining process between labor and management a much more fair process. And at the end of the day, it's just employees doing the smart thing in a free market economy. They should be looking out for their own interests.

A big part of the problem with unions recently has been that they have started to think like their employers. They look at things in the short term and not the long term. Short term squeezing the employer for every last cent beats (for some reason) making sure that the employer remains solvent.

The union I'd like to see busted is the NBA ref union. Refs are never fired for incompetence and there are some who are blatently incompetent and biased.

Leroy Lizard
2/18/2011, 07:58 PM
Some unions are actually very good, some give unions a bad name. Take the Teamsters, for example, at least the local here in OKC. If an employee is an effup, they're probably more afraid of retribution from the union than the employer. The union will come in and set that employee straight....

Will he end up like Jimmy Hoffa?

Leroy Lizard
2/18/2011, 08:00 PM
The union I'd like to see busted is the NBA ref union. Refs are never fired for incompetence and there are some who are blatently incompetent and biased.

I guess everyone has their priorities.

StoopTroup
2/19/2011, 12:15 AM
Most union outrage I hear comes from folks who have never been in one. Those who have and now hate them have made some valid points in the oval over the years. I still believe that things will repeat themselves once Unions are gone. Unions and rich people have something in common. One is trying to ring as much as they can from the other. The rich are winning the argument again but eventually the middle class will be gone and Unions will either take charge or the few will continue to be bought off. Humans aren't perfect and those that think they are will one day have a light shined upon them. Money doesn't make you happy and neither do Unions.

Leroy Lizard
2/19/2011, 12:31 AM
Most union outrage I hear comes from folks who have never been in one. Those who have and now hate them have made some valid points in the oval over the years. I still believe that things will repeat themselves once Unions are gone. Unions and rich people have something in common. One is trying to ring as much as they can from the other. The rich are winning the argument again but eventually the middle class will be gone and Unions will either take charge or the few will continue to be bought off. Humans aren't perfect and those that think they are will one day have a light shined upon them. Money doesn't make you happy and neither do Unions.

So tell us what you think about the Wisconsin deal. I've been wondering what your take was. Do you side with the teachers?

SoCaliSooner
2/19/2011, 12:35 AM
Unions and rich people have something in common. One is trying to ring as much as they can from the other. The rich are winning the argument again but eventually the middle class will be gone and Unions will either take charge or the few will continue to be bought off.

I've never understood the vilification of the wealthy. How and why people think the wealthy have somehow unfairly stolen from middle class people baffles me. These are often entrepreneurs who took a risk to build something from the ground up or developed a product or service that people want. Instead of people working hard to achieve financial success they feel the only way to accomplish that is to bring down somebody with more money, not work harder or take career risk.

mgsooner
2/19/2011, 12:41 AM
You're not rich, so why do you care? Wait, I forgot you like to act like you're rich. Makes sense.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/19/2011, 12:52 AM
Some unions are actually very good, some give unions a bad name. Take the Teamsters, for example, at least the local here in OKC. If an employee is an effup, they're probably more afraid of retribution from the union than the employer. The union will come in and set that employee straight or clear the way to get rid of 'em. Contrast that with the Postal Employees' Union (or whatever it's called)... boy oh boy they suck. They protect the hell out of absolutely terrible employees, who are sometimes even physically unable to do their work.

Unions, by and large, are a good thing in the private sector. I'm not sold that they're a good thing in the public sector.

In the private sector, the labor market is increasingly controlled by employers. This becomes especially more true when employees have no collective power. Collective bargaining actually makes the bargaining process between labor and management a much more fair process. And at the end of the day, it's just employees doing the smart thing in a free market economy. They should be looking out for their own interests.

A big part of the problem with unions recently has been that they have started to think like their employers. They look at things in the short term and not the long term. Short term squeezing the employer for every last cent beats (for some reason) making sure that the employer remains solvent.I will pray for you.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/19/2011, 12:57 AM
You're not rich, so why do you care? Wait, I forgot you like to act like you're rich. Makes sense.You will be included in the same prayers. You're welcome.

SoCaliSooner
2/19/2011, 01:02 AM
nm

SoCaliSooner
2/19/2011, 01:02 AM
You're not rich, so why do you care? Wait, I forgot you like to act like you're rich. Makes sense.

You think I act like I am rich which is your perception based on what you think I should or shouldn't have without knowing what my and/or my wife's income is. However, if you are so concerned about what I make before overtime and taxes, knock yourself out. It's public info..

http://freightyard.net/lacofd/MOU/SalarySpreadsheet.pdf

Firefighter/Paramedic then Firefighter Specialist and now Captain...with 16 years on.

Anybody who wants to make more than me...have at it...

mgsooner
2/19/2011, 01:13 AM
And Mr. Small Dick proves how insecure he is yet again.

SoCaliSooner
2/19/2011, 01:17 AM
And Mr. Small Dick proves how insecure he is yet again.

Some broke *** guy in the internet said I have a small penis...I guess I need to file a grievance with the union...

Leroy Lizard
2/19/2011, 01:22 AM
Some broke *** guy in the internet said I have a small penis...I guess I need to file a grievance with the union...

I'll play the part of the union rep:

"Just give us your goddamn money!"

So how did I do?

mgsooner
2/19/2011, 01:23 AM
Not sure I've seen someone post an actual link to their salary on here before. Bravo Mr. Small Dick, bravo. I am in awe of your immense wealth. :D

MamaMia
2/19/2011, 01:24 AM
Fire them.

^^^This. They broke they're contracts. It not a strike. It a work stoppage.

SoCaliSooner
2/19/2011, 01:24 AM
I'll play the part of the union rep:

"Just give us your goddamn money!"

So how did I do?


You forgot to tell me to vote dem.....while most of the rank and file vote repub.

SoCaliSooner
2/19/2011, 01:30 AM
Not sure I've seen someone post an actual link to their salary on here before. Bravo Mr. Small Dick, bravo. I am in awe of your immense wealth. :D

https://spreadsheets.google.com/lv?key=t-PtlywzhCV6otslGq-hQoA&type=view&gid=0&f=false&colid0=2&filterstr0=LA%20COUNTY%20FIRE%20DEPARTMENT&sortcolid=2&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

Well....I'm no pilot...yet.

mgsooner
2/19/2011, 01:36 AM
Can you please post your most recent tax return and W-2? TIA

Leroy Lizard
2/19/2011, 01:41 AM
Birth certificate would help too.

SoCaliSooner
2/19/2011, 01:42 AM
Birth certificate would help too.

I was born in Hawai'i...er..yep..Hawai'i...

Leroy Lizard
2/19/2011, 02:28 AM
Check this out:

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/33534649.html

You can pull down the salary of just about any teacher in the Milwaukee area. Here is what I found for one elementary school:

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/33534649.html?appSession=605282796442624

Salaries might surprise you.

jkjsooner
2/19/2011, 10:04 AM
I've never understood the vilification of the wealthy. How and why people think the wealthy have somehow unfairly stolen from middle class people baffles me. These are often entrepreneurs who took a risk to build something from the ground up or developed a product or service that people want. Instead of people working hard to achieve financial success they feel the only way to accomplish that is to bring down somebody with more money, not work harder or take career risk.

I don't at all villify the wealthy although I would remind the people of the following:


It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Matthew 19:24).

That being said, I respect the guys who had a great idea and became wealthy. Unfortunately, a great many of these people used their power to crush competitors so I would hardly defend all of them.

I do think the wealth gap can be a danger to society. With such a small percentage of the population obtaining such a high percentage of the wealth, something will give. This small percentage has the power to pretty much control our economy.

I want people to get wealthy. I want motivated people to have an opportunity or a dream of wealth. These people contribute so much to our society. But this can be achieved without policies that promote the rich at the expense of the middle class.

pphilfran
2/19/2011, 10:59 AM
https://spreadsheets.google.com/lv?key=t-PtlywzhCV6otslGq-hQoA&type=view&gid=0&f=false&colid0=2&filterstr0=LA%20COUNTY%20FIRE%20DEPARTMENT&sortcolid=2&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

Well....I'm no pilot...yet.

Looks to me that overtime needs to be looked at...

How do high staff positions get OT? In the private sector if you are staff you are classified as exempt and will get no OT even if you work 100 hours a week...you take a staff position and you should realize there is no OT involved...if you have a good boss they might toss ya bone and give ya an extra day off from time to time...but OT? lol

And speaking of a hundred hours...they show Battalion Chiefs with a 56 hour work week and they still had time to rack up 100k in OT on a 150k salary...on 56 hours and 150k in salary they are getting $51.50 an hour...

Say they get an overall average of $80 an hour OT (some double time involved) they would have to work an additional 25 hours a week on top of their scheduled 56...an average work week of 81 hours...if you have that many staff positions working that much over an entire year I am sure that their effectiveness is somewhat hampered....

No wonder you suckers are going broke...

pphilfran
2/19/2011, 11:01 AM
Oh, and nothing says safety quite like a pilot topping 80 a week for a year...

pphilfran
2/19/2011, 11:04 AM
Check this out:

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/33534649.html

You can pull down the salary of just about any teacher in the Milwaukee area. Here is what I found for one elementary school:

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/33534649.html?appSession=605282796442624

Salaries might surprise you.

JFC!!!!!!!

Check out Richard Moore...short term substitute teacher...104k in salary...

$254,785 in fringe pay...

Damn near $360k in compensation...

JFC!!!!!

Saul Good
2/19/2011, 11:52 AM
JFC!!!!!!!

Check out Richard Moore...short term substitute teacher...104k in salary...

$254,785 in fringe pay...

Damn near $360k in compensation...

JFC!!!!!

Whatever you do though, DO NOT make him pay for a portion of his health insurance premiums. THE HUMANITY!!!!

AlboSooner
2/19/2011, 11:54 AM
Wealth is never created in vacuum. There is a system in place a process in place which is not entirely capitalistic, which helps people collect tremendous amount of wealth. I truly believe that if people lived like Jesus taught, we would not have many problems in this country.
Make wealth but be fair and honest. The man who doesn't work doesn't eat. Don't steal. Look after the poor. There is neither male nor female, neither Jew nor Gentile but all are equal in Christ. Love your neighbor as yourself.


Somebody mentioned the verse about the rich. That verse should not be given in vacuum, because it can be misinterpreted as God being against rich people. That verse is specific to people who love wealth so much that they reject Jesus. It was said after the rich young ruler said NO to Christ. And still when asked with amazement by his disciples that who then shll be saved even if rich people can't be saved, Jesus said that with God anything is possible.

We have wealthy and dedicated people in our church, who I don't have one once of doubt that I will see in heaven.

picasso
2/19/2011, 12:28 PM
Some unions are actually very good, some give unions a bad name. Take the Teamsters, for example, at least the local here in OKC. If an employee is an effup, they're probably more afraid of retribution from the union than the employer. The union will come in and set that employee straight or clear the way to get rid of 'em. Contrast that with the Postal Employees' Union (or whatever it's called)... boy oh boy they suck. They protect the hell out of absolutely terrible employees, who are sometimes even physically unable to do their work.

Unions, by and large, are a good thing in the private sector. I'm not sold that they're a good thing in the public sector.

In the private sector, the labor market is increasingly controlled by employers. This becomes especially more true when employees have no collective power. Collective bargaining actually makes the bargaining process between labor and management a much more fair process. And at the end of the day, it's just employees doing the smart thing in a free market economy. They should be looking out for their own interests.

A big part of the problem with unions recently has been that they have started to think like their employers. They look at things in the short term and not the long term. Short term squeezing the employer for every last cent beats (for some reason) making sure that the employer remains solvent.

They should never try to dictate how their people vote.

soonercruiser
2/19/2011, 09:48 PM
Check this out:

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/33534649.html

You can pull down the salary of just about any teacher in the Milwaukee area. Here is what I found for one elementary school:

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/33534649.html?appSession=605282796442624

Salaries might surprise you.

10 pages of school employees with pay over $100K!!???
Looks like most of them are administrators. :(

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/19/2011, 11:49 PM
10 pages of school employees with pay over $100K!!???
Looks like most of them are administrators. :(NO WONDER they are so fiercely guarding their unions!

SCOUT
2/20/2011, 12:11 AM
10 pages of school employees with pay over $100K!!???
Looks like most of them are administrators. :(

It's actually quite a bit more than ten pages. 10 pages are just what is displayed. It looks like it is 500 people or so.

GKeeper316
2/20/2011, 12:21 AM
Wealth is never created in vacuum. There is a system in place a process in place which is not entirely capitalistic, which helps people collect tremendous amount of wealth. I truly believe that if people lived like Jesus taught, we would not have many problems in this country.
Make wealth but be fair and honest. The man who doesn't work doesn't eat. Don't steal. Look after the poor. There is neither male nor female, neither Jew nor Gentile but all are equal in Christ. Love your neighbor as yourself.


Somebody mentioned the verse about the rich. That verse should not be given in vacuum, because it can be misinterpreted as God being against rich people. That verse is specific to people who love wealth so much that they reject Jesus. It was said after the rich young ruler said NO to Christ. And still when asked with amazement by his disciples that who then shll be saved even if rich people can't be saved, Jesus said that with God anything is possible.

We have wealthy and dedicated people in our church, who I don't have one once of doubt that I will see in heaven.

no.

christ could not have been more clear about wealth and money. rich people got rich by neglecting god and what god wants of them, according to jesus (if you believe that all the red words were actually the words that came out of his mouth).

there's no room for interperetation on this issue. if you have more money than you can use, it is your christian obligation to spend it on those less fortunate. its a logical fallacy to try and reconcile greed with christian values. the two are mutually exclusive.

SoCaliSooner
2/20/2011, 10:32 AM
With Republican congressmen picking up women now, it seems they should be all in with Planned Parenthood.
Sorry.....it's going to take something pretty huge to top this....



http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2009/08/15/alg_hunter_edwards.jpg

OUthunder
2/20/2011, 10:46 AM
JFC!!!!!!!

Check out Richard Moore...short term substitute teacher...104k in salary...

$254,785 in fringe pay...

Damn near $360k in compensation...

JFC!!!!!

That's just wrong. BTW, who's paying for the fringe pay?

Hmmn.

BTW, when I was working at the University hospital in Minnesota, we were union. You couldn't fire anybody for anything. Then we found out that the union was stealing retirement funds.

Good times.

jkjsooner
2/20/2011, 11:04 AM
10 pages of school employees with pay over $100K!!???
Looks like most of them are administrators. :(

In the state? That surprises you? C'mon, man, half the people in my office make over $100k.

soonercruiser
2/20/2011, 02:12 PM
no.

christ could not have been more clear about wealth and money. rich people got rich by neglecting god and what god wants of them, according to jesus (if you believe that all the red words were actually the words that came out of his mouth).

there's no room for interperetation on this issue. if you have more money than you can use, it is your christian obligation to spend it on those less fortunate. its a logical fallacy to try and reconcile greed with christian values. the two are mutually exclusive.

Wonder why Obama isn't on the tube asking the Wisconsin teacher's union to share their wealth?
:rolleyes:

Sooner_Havok
2/20/2011, 04:18 PM
I have to admit, when I found out the first thing that the Wisc. governor did when he took office was give Wal-Mart a $140 million tax break, I LOLed.

Give Wal-Mart $140 million tax break, then demand that public employees (mostly teachers) exclusively pay for it. Nicely played sir, nicely played.

MamaMia
2/20/2011, 04:31 PM
The more union egos Obama strokes, the less campaign money he has to spend to get votes.

Leroy Lizard
2/20/2011, 05:49 PM
there's no room for interperetation on this issue. if you have more money than you can use, it is your christian obligation to spend it on those less fortunate.

I don't, because any money above that which I need for basic necessities I invest in companies so that their families can survive.

I'm such a good Christian.

Leroy Lizard
2/20/2011, 05:53 PM
I have to admit, when I found out the first thing that the Wisc. governor did when he took office was give Wal-Mart a $140 million tax break, I LOLed.

Give Wal-Mart $140 million tax break, then demand that public employees (mostly teachers) exclusively pay for it. Nicely played sir, nicely played.

Not sure what you mean. All I have found on the Net concerning a tax break for Wal-mart comes from hysterical blogs. What does this tax break comprise? Does it target Wal-mart specifically? (I ask seriously.)

delhalew
2/20/2011, 06:11 PM
In the state? That surprises you? C'mon, man, half the people in my office make over $100k.

Am I paying the salaries of the guys in your office? How about the people of Wisconsin? Have those guys shut down the schools because the state of Wisconsin can't afford to be fleeced this year?

MamaMia
2/20/2011, 06:12 PM
I don't at all villify the wealthy although I would remind the people of the following:


It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (Matthew 19:24).

That being said, I respect the guys who had a great idea and became wealthy. Unfortunately, a great many of these people used their power to crush competitors so I would hardly defend all of them.

I do think the wealth gap can be a danger to society. With such a small percentage of the population obtaining such a high percentage of the wealth, something will give. This small percentage has the power to pretty much control our economy.

I want people to get wealthy. I want motivated people to have an opportunity or a dream of wealth. These people contribute so much to our society. But this can be achieved without policies that promote the rich at the expense of the middle class.That biblical verse doesn't mean that your chances of going to Heaven lessen because you are wealthy. Its a warning not to love your money more than you do God. The government doesn't have the right to vilify the wealthy by taxing them more. There should be a flat percentage tax, as far as I'm concerned. If wealthy people want to help those less fortunate, it should be their own decision, not one forced by the government. A lot of folks would be able to help out the less fortunate more than they do if the government wasn't helping themselves to other peoples money at such a high rate.

delhalew
2/20/2011, 06:16 PM
Not sure what you mean. All I have found on the Net concerning a tax break for Wal-mart comes from hysterical blogs. What does this tax break comprise? Does it target Wal-mart specifically? (I ask seriously.)

That's just the kind of hysteria you get when somebody tries to lure businesses to there stare. You can't force people to understand how commerce works.

sooner59
2/20/2011, 07:08 PM
Check this out:

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/33534649.html

You can pull down the salary of just about any teacher in the Milwaukee area. Here is what I found for one elementary school:

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/33534649.html?appSession=605282796442624

Salaries might surprise you.

Library Media Specialists at elementary schools making doctor/lawyer money. What is going on in that state? :confused:

jkjsooner
2/20/2011, 07:58 PM
Am I paying the salaries of the guys in your office? How about the people of Wisconsin? Have those guys shut down the schools because the state of Wisconsin can't afford to be fleeced this year?

Don't you think that schools have to be somewhat competitive with private industries for talent? The fact that there's only a few pages of employees with salaries over $100k shows that they are already paying quite a bit less than your average private worker. Think about a private company of this size and how many $100k or more employees you would have...

BTW, do you live in Wisconsin? If not, then why are you bitching about paying their salaries?

jkjsooner
2/20/2011, 08:06 PM
That's just the kind of hysteria you get when somebody tries to lure businesses to there stare. You can't force people to understand how commerce works.

If they're just trying to lure Wal Mart stores to Wisconsin, I can promise you it will happen with or without extra tax benefits. In addition, you'll be trading small businesses for mostly low income jobs. If true, it seems like a dumb decision all around.

As for the general tax benefits localities give, I really wish that would be found to be unconsitutional (on say equal protection grounds). I could be way off legally there but I'd love to see it happen. Giving large companies special protections creates an unlevel playing field and makes it very hard to compete. In addition, usually it's a give and take from one state to another with no net benefit for the country as a whole.

If states want to attract business, they should do so fairly by passing pro-business laws uniformly.

badger
2/20/2011, 08:15 PM
If they're just trying to lure Wal Mart stores to Wisconsin, I can promise you it will happen with or without extra tax benefits.

From what I remember about 10 years ago last time I lived there full-time, Walmarts weren't in short supply. :D

soonercruiser
2/20/2011, 09:05 PM
Don't you think that schools have to be somewhat competitive with private industries for talent? The fact that there's only a few pages of employees with salaries over $100k shows that they are already paying quite a bit less than your average private worker. Think about a private company of this size and how many $100k or more employees you would have...

BTW, do you live in Wisconsin? If not, then why are you bitching about paying their salaries?

CHeck the link!
That was over 10 pages of employees in the Madison School District only with salaraies over $100K.

Leroy Lizard
2/20/2011, 10:34 PM
Don't you think that schools have to be somewhat competitive with private industries for talent? The fact that there's only a few pages of employees with salaries over $100k shows that they are already paying quite a bit less than your average private worker. Think about a private company of this size and how many $100k or more employees you would have...

I doubt many private schools employ teachers at those salary scales, especially if you consider benefits.


BTW, do you live in Wisconsin? If not, then why are you bitching about paying their salaries?

You don't have to live in Wisconsin to have an opinion on what is happening there.

delhalew
2/20/2011, 10:36 PM
Don't you think that schools have to be somewhat competitive with private industries for talent? The fact that there's only a few pages of employees with salaries over $100k shows that they are already paying quite a bit less than your average private worker. Think about a private company of this size and how many $100k or more employees you would have...

BTW, do you live in Wisconsin? If not, then why are you bitching about paying their salaries?

Department of Education. Also known as the Department of Pissing Away Money.

delhalew
2/20/2011, 10:46 PM
From what I remember about 10 years ago last time I lived there full-time, Walmarts weren't in short supply. :D

His statement demonstrates how folks can't see the forest for the trees. The Wal-Marts ate already there. Tax breaks will encourage hiring. This is not a Walmart conversation. I am willing to bet Walmart was not targeted for a tax break. Some leftist just picked them out to bitch about.

Sooner_Havok
2/20/2011, 10:47 PM
That's just the kind of hysteria you get when somebody tries to lure businesses to there stare. You can't force people to understand how commerce works.

So, lure Wal-Mart to Wisconsin with $140 million in tax breaks. Get Wal-Mart jobs in Wisconsin.

State budget now $137 million short. Force teachers and other state employees to pay for tax break.

Why not force the entire population of Wisconsin pay to lure Wal-Mart to Wisconsin? Why does one group of people have to be singled out to pay for the Wal-Mart tax breaks? If it isn't cool to tax rich people just cause they're rich, is it any more fair to tax state employees just because they work for the state government?

Leroy Lizard
2/20/2011, 10:53 PM
So, lure Wal-Mart to Wisconsin with $140 million in tax breaks. Get Wal-Mart jobs in Wisconsin.

State budget now $137 million short. Force teachers and other state employees to pay for tax break.

Not quite. The whole point of luring industry is to make up the tax break with revenue from increased production and employment. To say that a $140 million tax break means the state will end up $140 million poorer is ridiculous.


Why not force the entire population of Wisconsin pay to lure Wal-Mart to Wisconsin? Why does one group of people have to be singled out to pay for the Wal-Mart tax breaks? If it isn't cool to tax rich people just cause they're rich, is it any more fair to tax state employees just because they work for the state government?

Rich people are already taxed, and at a higher rate than poor people. You can't go after the real poor, because they don't pay much in taxes. If you tax private industry, you lose jobs.

delhalew
2/20/2011, 10:57 PM
Holy ****
A: Tax breaks are not spending.

B: Somebody prove to me somebody actually wrote up a tac cut for Walmart, and not a whole host of businesses. Mind you, this is in one the most tax crazed states in the union.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/21/2011, 12:38 AM
Not quite. The whole point of luring industry is to make up the tax break with revenue from increased production and employment. To say that a $140 million tax break means the state will end up $140 million poorer is ridiculous.



Rich people are already taxed, and at a higher rate than poor people. You can't go after the real poor, because they don't pay much in taxes. If you tax private industry, you lose jobs.Why waste your time with the iggy-boys?

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2011, 01:14 AM
Holy ****
A: Tax breaks are not spending.

B: Somebody prove to me somebody actually wrote up a tac cut for Walmart, and not a whole host of businesses. Mind you, this is in one the most tax crazed states in the union.

Wal-mart is the new bogey man. Whatever law a lib opposes, if Wal-mart is impacted in any way whatsoever it becomes a "Wal-mart law." It's a form of McCarthyism -- the Wal-mart Scare.

SoCaliSooner
2/21/2011, 09:55 AM
BTW, do you live in Wisconsin? If not, then why are you bitching about paying their salaries?
Apparently you don't have to live in Wisconsin to be a union protester as they are being bussed in from neighboring states to add to the numbers....

The Profit
2/21/2011, 10:41 AM
Apparently you don't have to live in Wisconsin to be a union protester as they are being bussed in from neighboring states to add to the numbers....




It all evens out. The tea-baggers showed up this weekend from other states as well. If the governor is going to do away with collective bargaining, he needs to do it for police, fire and rescue as well.

AlboSooner
2/21/2011, 10:43 AM
no.

christ could not have been more clear about wealth and money. rich people got rich by neglecting god and what god wants of them, according to jesus (if you believe that all the red words were actually the words that came out of his mouth).

there's no room for interperetation on this issue. if you have more money than you can use, it is your christian obligation to spend it on those less fortunate. its a logical fallacy to try and reconcile greed with christian values. the two are mutually exclusive.
This post may have a lot of sarcasm, and I think the Bible is clear on the love of money, versus being a Godly wealthy person. Abraham was very rich says Genesis 13. Job was very wealthy. Jesus came from a well-to-do family.

It is a Christian obligation to feed the poor.

SoCaliSooner
2/21/2011, 11:01 AM
If the governor is going to do away with collective bargaining, he needs to do it for police, fire and rescue as well.

I am all for it. Our union protects and assures the promotion of many who are unfit to even be in the job.

SanJoaquinSooner
2/21/2011, 11:06 AM
Apparently you don't have to live in Wisconsin to be a union protester as they are being bussed in from neighboring states to add to the numbers....

The issue that interests me is that of benefits. Who pays for the health/dental/eyecare package, the state or the employee? And who pays what for the retirement package?

Socali, is there a deduction from LA firefighters paychecks for family medical coverage? If so, do you know the employee/employer ratio of who pays what? For example, I pay 1/3 of medical/dental/vision premiums for family coverage and the employer pays 2/3. Same with my pension plan - I pay 1/3, employer pays 2/3 (which is generous compared to many private sector 401K plans). Do firefighters contribute to the pension plan?

I don't know about Wisconsin, but many California teachers have not had to pay for any of the medical coverage until recently and are being pressured to contribute more to balance the school budget. Many have acted like it's a pay cut. It not - they just need to start paying for their own family's medical care. Why should taxpayers pay for family coverage?

Salaries of public sector employees are a mixed bag -- some WAY overpaid like the lower skills positions, as compared to private sector. Some are paid fairly, but many are WAY over-compensated in the benefits packages. This has to change to balance state budgets.

It doesn't bother me to hear of public school principals making over 100K. That is one tough, stressful job these days, with long hours. Not only are you the plant manager, but you have to deal with parents and their attorneys one one side and the NCLB feds on the other side.

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2011, 11:22 AM
It doesn't bother me to hear of public school principals making over 100K. That is one tough, stressful job these days, with long hours. Not only are you the plant manager, but you have to deal with parents and their attorneys one one side and the NCLB feds on the other side.

There are no NCLB feds. That's another bogey-man. A principal is not going to get a call from anyone associated with the federal government.

But I agree with the rest of your statement.

SanJoaquinSooner
2/21/2011, 11:38 AM
There are no NCLB feds. That's another bogey-man. A principal is not going to get a call from anyone associated with the federal government.

But I agree with the rest of your statement.

You are correct that they don't deal directly with the feds. The state writes the regulations to meet NCLB federal standards, so public schools must deal with state bureaucrats acting on behalf of state regulations necessary to meet federal law.

badger
2/21/2011, 11:58 AM
Wisconsin update: Milwaukee districts already had this day written in as a day off for a mid-semester break, but Madison is expected to finally have school again tomorrow... but not today. Yes, you read that correctly -- Madison schools are once again out because of all of the "sick" calls :rolleyes:

Schools in the middle part of the state are out because of extreme snow, I've heard from my northern friends and family... which of course means that the district I attended is the only school open in the area, d'oh d'oh d'oh! Poor kids, can't get days off for crazy teacher protests (only the southern part of the state really partook, although some larger districts also had some teacher absences) or snow days. I bet they're feeling reeeeeal educated :D

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2011, 11:59 AM
You are correct that they don't deal directly with the feds. The state writes the regulations to meet NCLB federal standards, so public schools must deal with state bureaucrats acting on behalf of state regulations necessary to meet federal law.

And what NCLB laws would a principal have to comply with that he shouldn't have to anyway?

Tulsa_Fireman
2/21/2011, 12:11 PM
I am all for it. Our union protects and assures the promotion of many who are unfit to even be in the job.

Then change your union.

Your union is not some ethereal entity with grandiose plans of raping Joe Hardworker to fund and sustain an effort to preserve every turd in the punchbowl. Your union is you. The guy tailgunning for you. The guy pumping your rig. The guy hauling that T-pack. The guy looking in the mirror.

If you don't like actions your union takes, voice your dissent. Inform yourself on the facts of the circumstances. Gather like-minded individuals. Organize your membership. And then DEMAND change. Enter elections or promote like-minded individuals in elections and place members in those representative positions of power that can effect change as you and others see fit.

Once that happens, I'd be willing to bet that one of two things will happen. Membership activity increases to an all-time high and your union, your collective brotherhood, your singular voice, will begin to address a direction that makes sense. Or things won't change at all because once involved, informed, and aware, the decisions taking place right now are a result of your Local acting in the best interests of the Local and the membership, not just a few specific individuals.

It's real easy to sit back and point fingers. Real easy to wonder why your Local is defending yet another turd for the umpteenth time. Real easy to accuse your Local for self-service over community service. And with that perspective, apathy grows like a cancer until eventually a Local becomes that very thing which you despise, a repository of turds and self-servers that find their bastion within the halls of the membership men like yourself and others have built from the ground up with the blood and sweat of their hard work. It is YOURS. Either take it back or educate yourself as to why.

Until then, you might as well complain about the sky being blue.

soonercruiser
2/21/2011, 12:25 PM
I am all for it. Our union protects and assures the promotion of many who are unfit to even be in the job.

Just don't expect the Demoncrats and Obama to hold up the same standard.
Like....waivers from the Obamacare mandates on employers....!
:rolleyes:

SoCaliSooner
2/21/2011, 12:27 PM
Then change your union.

Your union is not some ethereal entity with grandiose plans of raping Joe Hardworker to fund and sustain an effort to preserve every turd in the punchbowl. Your union is you. The guy tailgunning for you. The guy pumping your rig. The guy hauling that T-pack. The guy looking in the mirror.

If you don't like actions your union takes, voice your dissent. Inform yourself on the facts of the circumstances. Gather like-minded individuals. Organize your membership. And then DEMAND change. Enter elections or promote like-minded individuals in elections and place members in those representative positions of power that can effect change as you and others see fit.

Once that happens, I'd be willing to bet that one of two things will happen. Membership activity increases to an all-time high and your union, your collective brotherhood, your singular voice, will begin to address a direction that makes sense. Or things won't change at all because once involved, informed, and aware, the decisions taking place right now are a result of your Local acting in the best interests of the Local and the membership, not just a few specific individuals.

It's real easy to sit back and point fingers. Real easy to wonder why your Local is defending yet another turd for the umpteenth time. Real easy to accuse your Local for self-service over community service. And with that perspective, apathy grows like a cancer until eventually a Local becomes that very thing which you despise, a repository of turds and self-servers that find their bastion within the halls of the membership men like yourself and others have built from the ground up with the blood and sweat of their hard work. It is YOURS. Either take it back or educate yourself as to why.

Until then, you might as well complain about the sky being blue.


The problem is that the union (Local 1014) is generally okay. It's just a change as a whole with the department and union together. Hard working guys who get on special teams start being looked at as sweet positions to have. Then you get the middle to bottom of the pack guys who cry and point their fingers and want the union to tell the department to lower standards to "level the playing field". So, for example, guys who aren't strong swimmers can be part of swift water rescue team. Guys who aren't good at math/physics and literally can't read a tape measure want to be part of USAR....etc.

I disagree with 99% of the unions politics but it would take an act of God to remove our union. Most guys are happy to get the pay/benefits and be mostly treated like royalty amongst the public.

jkjsooner
2/21/2011, 12:40 PM
I doubt many private schools employ teachers at those salary scales, especially if you consider benefits.

You don't have to live in Wisconsin to have an opinion on what is happening there.

1. I wasn't talking about private schools. I was talking about private industries. A lot of upper management type workers have been in private industry and are qualified to go back if they choose. Also, some teachers (math/science) are definitely qualified for jobs outside of teaching and many of them did so before going into teaching. In general they make less than they would in private industry but there's only so far you can push that before they decide to go back.

2. My comment was in regards to someone saying "my tax dollars." It's one thing to have an opinion. It's another to talk about wasting your tax dollars when that's just factually incorrect.

jkjsooner
2/21/2011, 12:42 PM
Rich people are already taxed, and at a higher rate than poor people. You can't go after the real poor, because they don't pay much in taxes. If you tax private industry, you lose jobs.

Have you checked the capital gains tax rate lately? I'll wait for your response about how capital gains is a double tax...

Tulsa_Fireman
2/21/2011, 12:42 PM
Nobody is saying remove the union. Well, some of these other cranks are saying it but I'm not.

If you don't agree with your congressman, what do you do? You vote. If you REALLY don't agree with your congressman, you may even find a candidate and donate a few bucks. Work putting some signs out. Participate in the grass roots level politics in an effort to put someone in office that meets your expectations of an elected representative. Your union is similar but even moreso important because that union, that collective voice of the membership, is YOUR voice in a much more local context. It may be as simple as a district VP vote. It may be as simple as convincing friends and co-workers to start attending meetings. Or something like establishing a Station Steward that rotates among the crew to attend and speak for just the guys in your house. Either way, again, I can't stress it enough, if you don't like the direction your local is taking YOU have the power to change it!

YOU have the power to dictate the course of your union. YOU have the power to educate yourself and organize your fellow members to demand change. Don't like the politics of your Local? They're YOUR politics! Either find out why or take the appropriate steps to CHANGE those politics! To sit idly by, kicking in your monthly dues as your right to gripe with no effort to establish the change you want to see is silly. Like me griping about how I can't go anywhere on a flat tire but not getting off my butt to change it.

I bet you find there's more to it than you think.

Bourbon St Sooner
2/21/2011, 12:53 PM
If they're just trying to lure Wal Mart stores to Wisconsin, I can promise you it will happen with or without extra tax benefits. In addition, you'll be trading small businesses for mostly low income jobs. If true, it seems like a dumb decision all around.


I doubt that they would give Wal-Mart tax breaks for stores, but they probably would for a distribution center. Since a DC is going to service a certain geographical area, it could probably just as easily be put across the line in Illinois as in Wisconsin. All states offer these kinds of tax breaks to lure these kinds of projects.

Half a Hundred
2/21/2011, 01:07 PM
This post may have a lot of sarcasm, and I think the Bible is clear on the love of money, versus being a Godly wealthy person. Abraham was very rich says Genesis 13. Job was very wealthy. Jesus came from a well-to-do family.

It is a Christian obligation to feed the poor.

Jesus himself said that you cannot follow him and remain wealthy. Multiple times.

Luke 12:33 - "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys"

Luke 14:12-14 - "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and repayment come to you. But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous"

Matthew 19:20 - "The young man said to Him, "All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Luke 6:24 - "But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full"

Luke 16:19-25 - "Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs would come and lick his sores.

Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'

But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony...'"

Matthew 6:24 - "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will hold to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Money." (aka Mammon)

Luke 6:33 - "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, in order to receive back the same."

Matthew 25:31-46 - When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on His left.

Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite you in, or naked, and clothe You? And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'

Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

Then they themselves will also answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'

Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Jesus was very clear - clinging to money in any way meant you were not clinging to Him.

badger
2/21/2011, 01:11 PM
All of this pension/benefit/pay debate talk and how it relates to states being broke makes me wonder if states are soon going to be able to declare bankruptcy to avoid some of these outstanding debts to their public employees.

I'm afraid that's where it's headed, if either sacrifices aren't made now, or the economy suddenly booms.

Boom!

...nope, probably gonna have to go with sacrifices.

Half a Hundred
2/21/2011, 01:16 PM
All of this pension/benefit/pay debate talk and how it relates to states being broke makes me wonder if states are soon going to be able to declare bankruptcy to avoid some of these outstanding debts to their public employees.

I'm afraid that's where it's headed, if either sacrifices aren't made now, or the economy suddenly booms.

Boom!

...nope, probably gonna have to go with sacrifices.

If a state defaults, it's not the employees who get hit hardest. It's the rich folk who have a lot of money wrapped up in state bonds. The whole reason they're trying to take it out on the state employees is precisely because campaign contributors do not want that to happen.

Mjcpr
2/21/2011, 01:19 PM
Doubtful.....bond holders would likely be some of the first people to be repaid.

Tulsa_Fireman
2/21/2011, 01:24 PM
Jesus hates unions.

Half a Hundred
2/21/2011, 01:26 PM
Doubtful.....bond holders would likely be some of the first people to be repaid.

Except that states don't go through bankruptcy. They don't restructure their debt to pay off their creditors best. They simply don't pay. That's why it's a default.

Will future debt instruments be worthless as a result? Of course. However, the whole reason state and sovereign debt is such a popular store of wealth is that this sort of thing is supposed to be extremely uncommon. The flip side to that is that if this does happen, you're taking a huge loss.

This is why a state or sovereign debt default is a catastrophic event. Not only do lots of people lose money, but the value of the money you do hold is that much more volatile as a result.

Half a Hundred
2/21/2011, 01:28 PM
Jesus hates unions.

Nah, only the IAFF ;) :P

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2011, 01:29 PM
Then change your union.

Your union is not some ethereal entity with grandiose plans of raping Joe Hardworker to fund and sustain an effort to preserve every turd in the punchbowl. Your union is you. The guy tailgunning for you. The guy pumping your rig. The guy hauling that T-pack. The guy looking in the mirror.

If you don't like actions your union takes, voice your dissent.

He likes living.

Tulsa_Fireman
2/21/2011, 01:31 PM
I forgot all about Guido and Vito.

My bad. Carry on, nothing to see here.

pphilfran
2/21/2011, 04:14 PM
Then change your union.

Your union is not some ethereal entity with grandiose plans of raping Joe Hardworker to fund and sustain an effort to preserve every turd in the punchbowl. Your union is you. The guy tailgunning for you. The guy pumping your rig. The guy hauling that T-pack. The guy looking in the mirror.

If you don't like actions your union takes, voice your dissent. Inform yourself on the facts of the circumstances. Gather like-minded individuals. Organize your membership. And then DEMAND change. Enter elections or promote like-minded individuals in elections and place members in those representative positions of power that can effect change as you and others see fit.

Once that happens, I'd be willing to bet that one of two things will happen. Membership activity increases to an all-time high and your union, your collective brotherhood, your singular voice, will begin to address a direction that makes sense. Or things won't change at all because once involved, informed, and aware, the decisions taking place right now are a result of your Local acting in the best interests of the Local and the membership, not just a few specific individuals.

It's real easy to sit back and point fingers. Real easy to wonder why your Local is defending yet another turd for the umpteenth time. Real easy to accuse your Local for self-service over community service. And with that perspective, apathy grows like a cancer until eventually a Local becomes that very thing which you despise, a repository of turds and self-servers that find their bastion within the halls of the membership men like yourself and others have built from the ground up with the blood and sweat of their hard work. It is YOURS. Either take it back or educate yourself as to why.

Until then, you might as well complain about the sky being blue.

I saw that type action in Tyler...the troops were in an uproar over cuts...the union prez stood behind the desk with a baseball bat in hand...said..."Anyone not wanting to vote for the change can meet me outside..."

The vote passed....

TitoMorelli
2/21/2011, 07:33 PM
Interesting analysis from a comments thread on a political blog. Can't vouch for its accuracy:

> Would someone please note that Unions make the great lion's share of their $ from negotiating "benefits", not salaries... or collection of dues.

> This is why the decoupling of the Salaries and Benefits so important to Unions in Wisconsin. And why the Union's have countered the way they have. They'll give up Salary and Jobs for Teachers in a second, but they will fight to death for Benefit negotiation position.

In another life as an executive in CA, I used to do administration for two Teamster's "Health and Welfare" benefit packages. Do your research, but you'll find I'm correct about motivation of Unions. I also believe that the amount of money kept by Unions will be very interesting to both your viewers, and the tax payers of the US of A. The way it works is that the Unions negotiate with the "Employer" regarding how much money per member/per month they will need to support the benefit options required in Union contract. In the case of WI, they negotiate with each of the 77 counties. Then the Unions negotiate the terms of benefits with "providers"/Ins Co's, etc. They make the lion's share of their money off of what is called the "breakage" created by Employees choosing between plan options, and the administration of the programs. Let me explain with an example: A Union begins by negotiating with the Employer/State. They'll claim their buying leverage will afford Employer significant savings. They'll end up with a 3-tiered cost structure which allows the Union a profit even with the highest benefit option available as Union already has a very good idea about what Providers will be charging.

But it gets even more lucrative for Unions at this point. Let's say high-end Blue Cross PPO coverage costs $400 for the Family tier. What a Union will do is require $425 from Employer, plus a loaded in admin fee, as a charge for all Families in the employer group. So far, so fair? But, the Union will also offer a few other plans for Employees to choose from. The Union will also have developed relationships with a few cheaper HMO plans, and lesser PPO benefit structure plans that charge, as an example, $325 and $375, respectively. At an Open House Employees will choose what fits their needs and the Union is in line for the "breakage". The leftover breakage is then, to my experience, placed in a fund where only the Union has the checkbook. Cars, Vacations and Condo's, oh my. The Union also makes a "commission" off of things like Pre Legal, Dental and Term Life. As another profit source, the Union also leans on the Administrator for favors I'd rather not list, but usually involving idiocy like buying thousands of dollars of "raffle tickets" and leasing cars for the Union's Business Agents, not entirely above board. Of course I am relating my experience, and what little I know of others who also did Union administration. I'd expect any simple research by an actual reporter would open up a Pandora's box of Slush in the Badger State.

soonercruiser
2/21/2011, 07:55 PM
He likes living.

I've told the story several times before.
UMW official In WVa tried to kill my father....for not obeying and slowing down how much work he was doing.
The union wanted to split his job up into 4 jobs!

soonerscuba
2/21/2011, 07:59 PM
I've told the story several times before.
UMW official In WVa tried to kill my father....for not obeying and slowing down how much work he was doing.
The union wanted to split his job up into 4 jobs!Maybe we should bomb WV and install democracy.

SoCaliSooner
2/21/2011, 08:07 PM
Maybe we should bomb WV and install democracy.
Careful, it might spread to other states too once they see it...♠

47straight
2/21/2011, 08:08 PM
I've told the story several times before.
UMW official In WVa tried to kill my father....for not obeying and slowing down how much work he was doing.
The union wanted to split his job up into 4 jobs!

I just don't see why you hate having Saturday off and want to force 8 year olds to work in unsafe steel meels.

soonercruiser
2/21/2011, 08:42 PM
Maybe we should bomb WV and install democracy.

Not required (if you noticed the results of the recent elections).
In America, the voters take care of business (eventually).

soonercruiser
2/21/2011, 08:44 PM
I just don't see why you hate having Saturday off and want to force 8 year olds to work in unsafe steel meels.

I just understand how even a deranged brain can come up with that idea from anthing that I have posted!
:rolleyes:

When did you stop beating your wife?

AlboSooner
2/21/2011, 09:22 PM
Luke 12:33 - "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys"

Here are some rules I follow when studying scripture.

1. Scripture must be studied in its entirety.
2. We must not extrapolate particular verses and "bend" them to fit our interpretation.
3. We have to consider, to whom is the verse said, and about what.
4. What is the historical and cultural context. Not everything has an equivalent in our modern culture and our modern point of view.
5. Consider the intrinsic structure of scripture as revealed through plain language, poetry, philosophy, metaphors. All that is told in Scripture is meant to be understood.
6. Do not bring anything into scripture which the Scripture doesn't say.


Considering this, in Luke 12, Jesus is talking to his disciples, the original 12 Apostles (Luke 12:22). He is preparing them for a world-wide ministry where they would have to change their concerns from daily survival and materials, to spreading the Gospel. Jesus is not making a blanket statement for everybody who follows him. There is a difference between an Apostle and deacon, a teacher and a student.

Peter asks Jesus in Luke 12:41, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

Jesus tells the parable of the servant waiting on the master. Obviously, Jesus is telling the parable to the disciples.



Luke 14:12-14 - "When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and repayment come to you. But when you give a reception, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous"

Chapter 14 begins with this: One Sabbath, when Jesus went to eat in the house of a prominent Pharisee, he was being carefully watched.

The religious leaders did not minister to the lame, to the lepers, to the cripples and sick because they were considered ceremonially unclean by Jewish law. So these people were considered unclean and cursed, and the religious crowd did not want to have anything with them. Jesus is criticizing this practice with the verses you quoted. He is teaching against legalism. He is keeping his principle that the doctor is for the sick. The pharisees were legalistic and only concerned with keeping the law, forgetting that the Law is fulfilled only in loving your neighbor as yourself.


Matthew 19:20 - "The young man said to Him, "All these commands I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

The rich young ruler, approaches Jesus by asking this question: Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?

He believes that he can earn eternal life. Being rich, he is used by providing for himself, and wrongly thinks he can earn the kingdom of heaven. It is evident he is not sure he has earned the right to enter the kingdom of heaven because his question reeks of doubt. Jesus tells him to follow the commandments, "Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself."

To all these the young man answers, Lord I have done this, what do I lack. So, he has loved his neighbor as himself, but he still feels lacking something. Jesus purposefully leaves one commandment out. I believe Jesus is allowing this man to realize his mistake. Yet, the impressive your man doesn't get it.

He had failed to keep the first commandment: Do not have any other gods before me (exodus 20:3).

Jesus finally tells him, sell everything you have, and come follow me. Jesus is telling him: get rid of you idol; get rid of your love for your possessions. It is not a statement against having possessions, or wealth, it is a statement against loving your wealth more than God.


Luke 6:24 - "But woe to you who are rich, for you are receiving your comfort in full"
Once again we look at the verse in its whole context.
In Luke 6:20 it says: Looking at his disciples, he said..blessed are you who are poor.

Read 20-26, and Jesus is clearly prophesying about the way the Apostles were going to be treated. He is strictly talking in terms of spiritual food/wealth. He says, "Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets."

He is saying rejoice when the pharisees will persecute you, because their ancestors persecuted the prophets of God. Jesus is giving his disciples hope and telling them not to lose courage, because they will be fed with spiritual knowledge, and will inherit the kingdom of God.


Luke 16:19-25 - "Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs would come and lick his sores.

Luke 16 started with the parable of the rich man, who had a dishonest manager. Jesus said nothing against wealth here, but the mismanagement of wealth. The anti-hero, is the dishonest manager, not the rich man.

He continues to say in Luke 16:10-12:
Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own?

Jesus is simply warning against mismanagement of wealth, love of money and against treating each other with dishonesty. He continues with:

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.” The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.

In the spirit of mismanaging the wealth, loving money, and spending it to please the flesh he says the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

The key of the parable is not the fact that the man was rich, but this verse:
At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.


The rich man, even though he saw Lazarus in terrible condition by his door, did not care to feed him, to have mercy on him, despite his tremendous potential. It is not a statement against wealthy people, but against wealthy heartless people. Jesus says there is cosmic justice in the world to come.



The rest of the verses are similar to what I said above.

Genesis 13
And Abram [was] very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold. And Lot also, which went with Abram, had flocks, and herds, and tents. And the land was not able to bear them, that they might dwell together: for their substance was great, so that they could not dwell together.

Job 1:
In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. He had seven sons and three daughters, and he owned seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred yoke of oxen and five hundred donkeys, and had a large number of servants. He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.

2 Chronicles 9:22
King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth.

Matthew 27:57-60
As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.




The verses I have brought here are factual and have no metaphors, no allegory, no poetry, no parables: these are factual verses. These men were rich and Godly. The rich man form Arimathea was a disciple of Jesus. He gave up a very precious possession, a nice grave he had saved for himself, in order to fulfill a prophecy and to honor Jesus.

There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible teaches against being wealthy. There is evidence that the Bible teaches against loving money more than God and more than the fellow man. God wants us to be wealthy in spirit first, and if that's taken care of, he doesn't care how wealthy you are as long as you follow him.

Leroy Lizard
2/21/2011, 09:37 PM
Here are some rules I follow when studying scripture.

1. Scripture must be studied in its entirety.

But that's kind of hard when one's Biblical knowledge comes from Web site collections of verses. :D

SoCaliSooner
2/21/2011, 09:43 PM
Well...I remember this little ditty too...
Matthew 26: 6-11

6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, 7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. 8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. 9 “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”
10 Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 The poor you will always have with you,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:5-27:5&version=NIV#fen-NIV-24066a)] but you will not always have me."




Seems like the "give everything to the poor" stuff has some exceptions...and Jesus himself said we're always going to have poor...no matter how much we tax the rich.

47straight
2/21/2011, 10:00 PM
I just understand how even a deranged brain can come up with that idea from anthing that I have posted!
:rolleyes:

When did you stop beating your wife?


Why are you insisting that the governor of Wisconsin be allowed to enslave the teachers of Wisconsin and force them to work in the unsafe coal mines and contribute 12% of their health care premiums?

SanJoaquinSooner
2/21/2011, 10:08 PM
Well...I remember this little ditty too...
Matthew 26: 6-11

6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, 7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. 8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. 9 “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”
10 Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11 The poor you will always have with you,[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2026:5-27:5&version=NIV#fen-NIV-24066a)] but you will not always have me."




Seems like the "give everything to the poor" stuff has some exceptions...and Jesus himself said we're always going to have poor...no matter how much we tax the rich.

Yeah, one of the great scenes in JC Superstar ....

jkje4FiH9Qc


And it is my understanding that Mary Magdelene had no tattoos.

soonercruiser
2/21/2011, 10:19 PM
Why are you insisting that the governor of Wisconsin be allowed to enslave the teachers of Wisconsin and force them to work in the unsafe coal mines and contribute 12% of their health care premiums?

Another lame-brained conclusion/post!
Why do you liberal regressives love to put words in people's mouths; or twist what people say?????
I wasn't even making an argument in my post! Duh!
I was simply stating facts about my father and his miner's union.
Something you guys play pretty loose with.
:rolleyes:

47notsostraight! BTW - When did you stop beating your wife?
:rolleyes:

SCOUT
2/21/2011, 10:20 PM
Heh

champions77
2/21/2011, 10:34 PM
Let's see now, the Labor Unions have been responsible for ruining or at least crippling to the point of being non-competitive;

The Steel Industry

The garment Industry

The Auto Industry

Public Education

They will run a company into the ground with their ridiculous demands with very little concern with the solvency of the company itself. This is what happens when you pay some dropout $40 an hour plus benefits to tighten the nuts on the trunk hinges on the 2011 Monte Carlo.

While all the while being run by the most vile, violent and ruthless thugs and mobsters you can find.

And lastly, we can thank them for helping elect one of the most disingenuous, phony and unqualified Presidents this country has ever elected.

soonercruiser
2/21/2011, 10:36 PM
Wow, Albo!
Someone cracked the Good Book open! :eek:

SouthCarolinaSooner
2/21/2011, 11:06 PM
Another lame-brained conclusion/post!
Why do you liberal regressives love to put words in people's mouths; or twist what people say?????
I wasn't even making an argument in my post! Duh!
I was simply stating facts about my father and his miner's union.
Something you guys play pretty loose with.
:rolleyes:

47notsostraight! BTW - When did you stop beating your wife?
:rolleyes:
another even more lame brained post

delhalew
2/21/2011, 11:55 PM
Spousal abuse smack? I didn't see that coming.

okie52
2/22/2011, 12:24 AM
Spousal abuse smack? I didn't see that coming.

I could be wrong but it looks like Cruiser may not have caught 47's sarcasm.

SanJoaquinSooner
2/22/2011, 12:33 AM
I think cruiser is suggesting 47 is loading his questions.

jkjsooner
2/22/2011, 09:43 AM
Let's see now, the Labor Unions have been responsible for ruining or at least crippling to the point of being non-competitive;

The Steel Industry

The garment Industry

The Auto Industry

Public Education



While I don't disagree with your statement entirely, let's be honest here. Plenty of non-unionized jobs have been shipped overseas. We can't compete with someone making a couple of dollars a day - union or not.

3rdgensooner
2/22/2011, 11:50 AM
Here's a view from the other side of the coin

Koch Brothers Behind Wisconsin Effort To Kill Public Unions (http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/18/koch-brothers-behind-wisconsin-effort-to-kill-public-unions/)

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/rickungar/files/2011/02/Unknown1.jpeg (http://blogs-images.forbes.com/rickungar/files/2011/02/Unknown1.jpeg)

As the nation focuses on the efforts of Governor Scott Walker to take away collective bargaining rights from public employees in Wisconsin, new information is coming to light that reveals what is truly going on here.

Mother Jones is reporting that much of the funding behind the Walker for Governor campaign came from none other than uber-conservatives, the infamous Koch Brothers.


What’s more, the plan to kill the unions is right out of the Koch Brothers play book.
Koch-backed groups like Americans for Prosperity, the Cato Institute, the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the Reason Foundation have long taken (http://www.openmarket.org/2010/01/05/public-sector-unions-heavy-burden-on-taxpayers/) a very (http://www.americansforprosperity.org/021211-what-taxpayer-funded-union-bosses-think-us) antagonistic (http://www.openmarket.org/2010/12/30/sanitation-union-holds-new-york-hostage/) view (http://www.openmarket.org/2011/01/06/what-government-unions-want-one-two-many-californias/) toward public-sector unions. Several of these groups have urged the eradication of these unions. The Kochs also invited Mark Mix (http://www.nrtw.org/media/mam.php), president of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation, an anti-union outfit, to a June 2010 confab in Aspen, Colorado;
Via Mother Jones (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/wisconsin-scott-walker-koch-brothers)If you are reluctant to believe that this is a coordinated attack, consider this-

This afternoon, Marty Beil, executive director of the Wisconsin Public Workers Union, sent a message to the Governor’s office agreeing to the cuts to pension & welfare benefits sought by Walker in his bill. The governor’s response was “nothing doing.” He wants the whole kit and kaboodle – the end of the collective bargaining rights of the public unions.

As noted in my earlier post (http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/18/the-final-battle-in-the-war-against-unions-is-underway/), this is, indeed, the first shot in the final battle to end unionism in America.

UPDATE: The Americans for Prosperity group, a Tea Party group that is a Koch Brothers front, has put up a website and petition called www.standwithwalker.com (http://www.standwithwalker.com). The website attacks all collective bargaining – not just for public employees’ unions. Americans for Prosperity is also organizing a rally tomorrow in Wisconsin to support Gov. Walker.

Why are the Koch Brothers so interested in Wisconsin? They are a major business player in the state.


This from Think Progress:
Koch owns a coal company subsidiary with facilities in Green Bay, Manitowoc, Ashland and Sheboygan; six timber plants throughout the state; and a large network of pipelines in Wisconsin. While Koch controls much of the infrastructure in the state, they have laid off workers to boost profits. At a time when Koch Industries owners David and Charles Koch awarded themselves an extra $11 billion of income from the company, Koch slashed jobs (http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local/georgiapacific-explains-layoffs) at their Green Bay plant:
Officials at Georgia-Pacific said the company is laying off 158 workers at its Day Street plant because out-of-date equipment at the facility is being replaced with newer, more-efficient equipment. The company said much of the new, papermaking equipment will be automated. [...] Malach tells FOX 11 that the layoffs are not because of a drop in demand. In fact, Malach said demand is high for the bath tissue and napkins manufactured at the plant.You really have to wonder how long it will take for Tea Party devotees to realize just how badly they are being used.

AlboSooner
2/22/2011, 12:08 PM
This afternoon, Marty Beil, executive director of the Wisconsin Public Workers Union, sent a message to the Governor’s office agreeing to the cuts to pension & welfare benefits sought by Walker in his bill. The governor’s response was “nothing doing.” He wants the whole kit and kaboodle – the end of the collective bargaining rights of the public unions.

If this is true, then the governor doesn't care as much about the budget as much as he cares about killing unions.

dwarthog
2/22/2011, 12:20 PM
Here's a view from the other side of the coin

Koch Brothers Behind Wisconsin Effort To Kill Public Unions (http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/18/koch-brothers-behind-wisconsin-effort-to-kill-public-unions/)

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/rickungar/files/2011/02/Unknown1.jpeg (http://blogs-images.forbes.com/rickungar/files/2011/02/Unknown1.jpeg)

As the nation focuses on the efforts of Governor Scott Walker to take away collective bargaining rights from public employees in Wisconsin, new information is coming to light that reveals what is truly going on here.

Mother Jones is reporting that much of the funding behind the Walker for Governor campaign came from none other than uber-conservatives, the infamous Koch Brothers.


What’s more, the plan to kill the unions is right out of the Koch Brothers play book.
Koch-backed groups like Americans for Prosperity, the Cato Institute, the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the Reason Foundation have long taken (http://www.openmarket.org/2010/01/05/public-sector-unions-heavy-burden-on-taxpayers/) a very (http://www.americansforprosperity.org/021211-what-taxpayer-funded-union-bosses-think-us) antagonistic (http://www.openmarket.org/2010/12/30/sanitation-union-holds-new-york-hostage/) view (http://www.openmarket.org/2011/01/06/what-government-unions-want-one-two-many-californias/) toward public-sector unions. Several of these groups have urged the eradication of these unions. The Kochs also invited Mark Mix (http://www.nrtw.org/media/mam.php), president of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation, an anti-union outfit, to a June 2010 confab in Aspen, Colorado;
Via Mother Jones (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/wisconsin-scott-walker-koch-brothers)If you are reluctant to believe that this is a coordinated attack, consider this-

This afternoon, Marty Beil, executive director of the Wisconsin Public Workers Union, sent a message to the Governor’s office agreeing to the cuts to pension & welfare benefits sought by Walker in his bill. The governor’s response was “nothing doing.” He wants the whole kit and kaboodle – the end of the collective bargaining rights of the public unions.

As noted in my earlier post (http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/18/the-final-battle-in-the-war-against-unions-is-underway/), this is, indeed, the first shot in the final battle to end unionism in America.

UPDATE: The Americans for Prosperity group, a Tea Party group that is a Koch Brothers front, has put up a website and petition called www.standwithwalker.com (http://www.standwithwalker.com). The website attacks all collective bargaining – not just for public employees’ unions. Americans for Prosperity is also organizing a rally tomorrow in Wisconsin to support Gov. Walker.

Why are the Koch Brothers so interested in Wisconsin? They are a major business player in the state.


This from Think Progress:
Koch owns a coal company subsidiary with facilities in Green Bay, Manitowoc, Ashland and Sheboygan; six timber plants throughout the state; and a large network of pipelines in Wisconsin. While Koch controls much of the infrastructure in the state, they have laid off workers to boost profits. At a time when Koch Industries owners David and Charles Koch awarded themselves an extra $11 billion of income from the company, Koch slashed jobs (http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local/georgiapacific-explains-layoffs) at their Green Bay plant:
Officials at Georgia-Pacific said the company is laying off 158 workers at its Day Street plant because out-of-date equipment at the facility is being replaced with newer, more-efficient equipment. The company said much of the new, papermaking equipment will be automated. [...] Malach tells FOX 11 that the layoffs are not because of a drop in demand. In fact, Malach said demand is high for the bath tissue and napkins manufactured at the plant.You really have to wonder how long it will take for Tea Party devotees to realize just how badly they are being used.

Interesting.

Not much in the way of an insidious Koch brother's plot to be found in this data.

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/84390642.html?appSession=095283594175356&RecordID=&PageID=2&PrevPageID=2&cpipage=1&CPISortType=asc&CPIorderBy=ContributionAmount

But, that won't stop folks predisposed to spreading misleading info, from continuing to do exactly that.

badger
2/22/2011, 12:22 PM
If this is true, then the governor doesn't care as much about the budget as much as he cares about killing unions.

If this was true, I think there were likely strings attached, like getting the benefits back when the economy improves, or making temporary cuts. While I do think that some see this as a golden opportunity to cut down some of the more powerful unions in the state, I am not ready to write this budget crisis off as completely a ploy to kill unions.

3rdgensooner
2/22/2011, 12:23 PM
Interesting.

Not much in the way of an insidious Koch brother's plot to be found in this data.

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/84390642.html?appSession=095283594175356&RecordID=&PageID=2&PrevPageID=2&cpipage=1&CPISortType=asc&CPIorderBy=ContributionAmount

But, that won't stop folks predisposed to spreading misleading info, from continuing to do exactly that.That same source reports the Koch Industry PAC donated $28,000 to Walker.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/105682878.html

SoCaliSooner
2/22/2011, 12:24 PM
Koch brothers are behind the Tea Party peeps...George Soros and William Ayers propped up Obama.

I think it's a wash...

badger
2/22/2011, 12:32 PM
So, one big non-Wisconsin group is behind one side of the protests, and another big non-Wisconsin group is behind the other side.

I'd say both sides are being used, not just the Tea Partiers. :(

3rdgensooner
2/22/2011, 12:36 PM
So, one big non-Wisconsin group is behind one side of the protests, and another big non-Wisconsin group is behind the other side.

I'd say both sides are being used, not just the Tea Partiers. Exactly my point in posting that...

badger
2/22/2011, 12:39 PM
When I spoke to friends/family up in Wisconsin, they almost sounded embarrassed by this national attention. I'm sure they'd rather the attention be for winning the Super Bowl. After years of weather forecasts, news stories and all sports reporting involving the Packers, I'm sure it is quite a shock to the system to have something non-Packer being talked about ;)

Actually, that should be a non-winky smile :) I am dead serious on the Packers-are-all-the-news thing.

dwarthog
2/22/2011, 12:41 PM
That same source reports the Koch Industry PAC donated $28,000 to Walker.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/105682878.html

There are two Koch donations. 28k and 15k.

Wal-mart donated 15k too.

Concerned Realtors donated 43k.

So, Koch brothers donated some money.

Unions donated huge sums to the Dem candidate.

http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/84390642.html?appSession=107283605761229&RecordID=&PageID=2&PrevPageID=2&cpipage=1&CPIsortType=asc&CPIorderby=ContributionAmount

dwarthog
2/22/2011, 12:41 PM
Exactly my point in posting that...

Agreed!

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/22/2011, 12:52 PM
If this was true, I think there were likely strings attached, like getting the benefits back when the economy improves, or making temporary cuts. While I do think that some see this as a golden opportunity to cut down some of the more powerful unions in the state, I am not ready to write this budget crisis off as completely a ploy to kill unions.Who SHOULD be in charge of the govt., elected officials or the unions?

badger
2/22/2011, 01:04 PM
Who SHOULD be in charge of the govt., elected officials or the unions?

Hi Rush, I see you were not among the ban hammered :D

I don't see any situation where unions should control the government. I'd much rather they be elected into office than elected into bartering position to lobby and fund the campaigns of those who currently are or are about to be elected into office. Remove the middle man, so to speak.

But, that's just Wisconsin. Elsewhere, like California, they can continue bowing to their union overlords for all I care. They almost seem to enjoy it.

Half a Hundred
2/22/2011, 01:22 PM
Words.

You may interpret those verses however you wish. That being said, consider very closely whether you're interpreting those verses to know Jesus better, or you're interpreting them to justify your material wealth.

Understand, though, that when you have to construct an apologetic framework of premises that others must accept, and logic that others must follow, to come to the same conclusion as yours, that this does not strengthen your argument. In fact, it weakens it.

If you have to do all of that particularly to ensure that people don't accept the plain meaning of those verses, ask yourself, why make the effort?

Finally, think about the two great commandments. "Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and all thy soul, and all thy mind" and "Love thy neighbor as thyself." If you seek wealth beyond that which is necessary to sustain you and your family, are you keeping these two commandments? Are you dedicating time to the pursuit of money that you could be dedicating to serving God? Through unwillingness to part with one's largesse, are you not loving yourself more than your neighbor?

I'm not saying you must agree with me on these things, but please, think about them, and pray upon them.

Ike
2/22/2011, 01:53 PM
I think there's a lot of utter nonsense going on there.

1) I do think the teachers and state workers are right to protest an un-negotiated pay cut. (and that's what being asked to contribute more to health insurance and pensions are...A reduction in total compensation). However, they shouldn't be calling in sick. They should simply be calling it what it is.

2) I think the Governer is right to seek such a pay reduction given the state of the budget. (although I find it a bit dubious for him to first cut taxes and then say "oh ****, we're broke!")

3) Given that his threats of the loss of the right to collectively bargain have effectively won him the fiscal concessions he was seeking, the Governor is being rather stupid in not taking the deal and calling it a win. It is a win for him.

4) Not taking the deal may actually cost the state, and the Governor, more. The more I play this out in my head, the costs of forcing the unions to lose collective bargaining power continue to rise....a) strikes happen. b) firing all the teachers? c) being unable to find even close to enough qualified replacement teachers. d) very pissed off parents.

Maybe I'm wrong, but IMO, the Governor should take the deal on the table. I think not doing so borders on negligence.

SouthCarolinaSooner
2/22/2011, 01:59 PM
Who SHOULD be in charge of the govt., elected officials or the unions?
"We the People"

Bourbon St Sooner
2/22/2011, 02:23 PM
Who SHOULD be in charge of the govt., elected officials or the unions?

The banks of course.

47straight
2/22/2011, 02:38 PM
"We the People"

So you're saying the democratically electred government should set the number of kids/classroom?

soonercruiser
2/22/2011, 02:57 PM
Here's a view from the other side of the coin

Koch Brothers Behind Wisconsin Effort To Kill Public Unions (http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/18/koch-brothers-behind-wisconsin-effort-to-kill-public-unions/)

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/rickungar/files/2011/02/Unknown1.jpeg (http://blogs-images.forbes.com/rickungar/files/2011/02/Unknown1.jpeg)

As the nation focuses on the efforts of Governor Scott Walker to take away collective bargaining rights from public employees in Wisconsin, new information is coming to light that reveals what is truly going on here.

Mother Jones is reporting that much of the funding behind the Walker for Governor campaign came from none other than uber-conservatives, the infamous Koch Brothers.


What’s more, the plan to kill the unions is right out of the Koch Brothers play book.
Koch-backed groups like Americans for Prosperity, the Cato Institute, the Competitive Enterprise Institute, and the Reason Foundation have long taken (http://www.openmarket.org/2010/01/05/public-sector-unions-heavy-burden-on-taxpayers/) a very (http://www.americansforprosperity.org/021211-what-taxpayer-funded-union-bosses-think-us) antagonistic (http://www.openmarket.org/2010/12/30/sanitation-union-holds-new-york-hostage/) view (http://www.openmarket.org/2011/01/06/what-government-unions-want-one-two-many-californias/) toward public-sector unions. Several of these groups have urged the eradication of these unions. The Kochs also invited Mark Mix (http://www.nrtw.org/media/mam.php), president of the National Right to Work Legal Defense Foundation, an anti-union outfit, to a June 2010 confab in Aspen, Colorado;
Via Mother Jones (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/wisconsin-scott-walker-koch-brothers)If you are reluctant to believe that this is a coordinated attack, consider this-

This afternoon, Marty Beil, executive director of the Wisconsin Public Workers Union, sent a message to the Governor’s office agreeing to the cuts to pension & welfare benefits sought by Walker in his bill. The governor’s response was “nothing doing.” He wants the whole kit and kaboodle – the end of the collective bargaining rights of the public unions.

As noted in my earlier post (http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/18/the-final-battle-in-the-war-against-unions-is-underway/), this is, indeed, the first shot in the final battle to end unionism in America.

UPDATE: The Americans for Prosperity group, a Tea Party group that is a Koch Brothers front, has put up a website and petition called www.standwithwalker.com (http://www.standwithwalker.com). The website attacks all collective bargaining – not just for public employees’ unions. Americans for Prosperity is also organizing a rally tomorrow in Wisconsin to support Gov. Walker.

Why are the Koch Brothers so interested in Wisconsin? They are a major business player in the state.


This from Think Progress:
Koch owns a coal company subsidiary with facilities in Green Bay, Manitowoc, Ashland and Sheboygan; six timber plants throughout the state; and a large network of pipelines in Wisconsin. While Koch controls much of the infrastructure in the state, they have laid off workers to boost profits. At a time when Koch Industries owners David and Charles Koch awarded themselves an extra $11 billion of income from the company, Koch slashed jobs (http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local/georgiapacific-explains-layoffs) at their Green Bay plant:
Officials at Georgia-Pacific said the company is laying off 158 workers at its Day Street plant because out-of-date equipment at the facility is being replaced with newer, more-efficient equipment. The company said much of the new, papermaking equipment will be automated. [...] Malach tells FOX 11 that the layoffs are not because of a drop in demand. In fact, Malach said demand is high for the bath tissue and napkins manufactured at the plant.You really have to wonder how long it will take for Tea Party devotees to realize just how badly they are being used.

The voters of Wisconsin are behind the effort to neuter the unions!
Duh!



Mother Jones (abbreviated MoJo) is an independent, nonprofit magazine, rooted in liberal and progressive political values.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Jones_(magazine)



http://motherjones.com/about#11
Mother Jones is a nonprofit news organization that specializes in investigative, political, and social justice reporting.

Wasn't Michael Moore an editor?
Yes, he was, for about three issues back in 1986. Michael and MoJo famously parted ways–he sued, we settled, he took the money and used it to make Roger and Me–long before current management came on the scene. We wish Michael continued luck and health and would love to buy him a beer, or a latte, the next time he's in San Francisco.

My brother says you're a lefty pinko rag. True?
Here's where we're coming from: We believe all people should have equal opportunity in life, that all children should be able to go to good schools, and that everyone should have health care. Call that what you will–we're not insulted by being called left, liberal, progressive, whatever.

soonercruiser
2/22/2011, 03:10 PM
Koch brothers are behind the Tea Party peeps...George Soros and William Ayers propped up Obama.

I think it's a wash...

Good point!
Who "is behind who" is a wash.
But, the LW is quick to point out the splinter in someone else's eye. :rolleyes:

CrimsonCream
2/22/2011, 03:15 PM
Very interesting for several reasons.

First, Obama has to be scared sh*tless. The corrupt Unions are his biggest contributors. This is where the majority of the Stimulus went. Payoffs, kickbacks, bribes, etc. (By the way, why won't the Obama Administration tell the American People how the Stimulus was spent?)

Isn't ironic the the State Senate Dems run away like the Cowards that they are. They are just like bullies. Smack them in the mouth and they just slink away.

Here we are.....representation of the people and the Loons are hiding out in another State. Evidently they are afraid to hold a honest discourse.

I tell you, the Loons, Unions and Obama are going to "take it in the shorts" in 2012. (I think Reid already has.)

badger
2/22/2011, 03:26 PM
Just to clarify - Wisconsin is neither a blue state nor a red state. It can go either way, just like Ohio and Michigan. It has been a battleground state in the past and both sides have had opportunities to control the state-level and federal-level offices representing Wisconsin.

It is very similar to other states, even California, where rural areas are more red, whereas populous urban areas are strongly blue. However, unlike other states, including Cali, this does not cause the entire state to lean either way. It is about an even split and thus, the state's elected positions are up for grabs pretty much every election.

Even non-partisan elections locally tend to be mudslinging fests. In the county I lived in, a sheriff couldn't get elected to more than one term before a new challenger appeared and ousted the old guy.

Why am I going off on a long post to tell you all this? Besides the fact that I'm the long-winded one here? :D It's because I'm assuring you that these protests will not be the end or beginning of anything locally. Madison's liberals will cling to a new issue within a week (perhaps Libya) and the rest of the state will start grumbling at the Republicans for not acting faster and the hats will get thrown in to throw the bums out once again.

3rdgensooner
2/22/2011, 03:46 PM
Good point!
Who "is behind who" is a wash.
But, the LW is quick to point out the splinter in someone else's eye. :rolleyes:Dude, you started the thread thus throwing the first splinter.

SoCaliSooner
2/22/2011, 03:53 PM
Dude, you started the thread thus throwing the first splinter.
I shall refer to you as Miss Log Eye....

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/22/2011, 04:03 PM
...Madison's liberals will cling to a new issue within a week (perhaps Libya) and the rest of the state will start grumbling at the Republicans for not acting faster and the hats will get thrown in to throw the bums out once again.Meanwhile, it's a LONG time, over a year and a half, before the next election.

The Profit
2/22/2011, 04:17 PM
It looks like there are groups gathering petitions to have recall elections for the governor and several state representatives. This could get interesting.

Whet
2/22/2011, 05:04 PM
Oh, I am sure ole Georgie Soros and his minion groups are doing that now!

Leroy Lizard
2/22/2011, 05:46 PM
It looks like there are groups gathering petitions to have recall elections for the governor and several state representatives. This could get interesting.

A recall could work if he had been in power for awhile and gone back on a lot of campaign promises. But if you couldn't beat him in the general election, you stand no chance in a recall.

soonercoop1
2/22/2011, 06:12 PM
Obama and the liberal/progressive Dems are certainly behind the protests...they have all their election funding to lose thus they lose their agenda...if it is passed in Wisconsin it will be the best thing that has happened to save this country in 70 years...

usmc-sooner
2/22/2011, 06:20 PM
if you refuse to work you should be fired, whether your a teacher or a politician. The people of Wisconsin should tell those politicians, it's cool that your leaving, don't come back.

soonercoop1
2/22/2011, 06:30 PM
It looks like there are groups gathering petitions to have recall elections for the governor and several state representatives. This could get interesting.

Would guess you have to live in the state to sign a recall petition...looks like this will be a coffin nail for the liberal/progressive agenda since other states will follow suit and allow union members to contribute to who they choose or not all together...thats why Obama and the liberal/progressives are running these strikes as they will lose all their election/bribe monies...

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/22/2011, 06:40 PM
Would guess you have to live in the state to sign a recall petition...looks like this will be a coffin nail for the liberal/progressive agenda since other states will follow suit and allow union members to contribute to who they choose or not all together...thats why Obama and the liberal/progressives are running these strikes as they will lose all their election/bribe monies...All hell will break loose before they let unions lose their grip on all those govt. jobs.

badger
2/22/2011, 06:58 PM
It looks like there are groups gathering petitions to have recall elections for the governor and several state representatives. This could get interesting.

They really should take a step back from this one - in Wisconsin, you can't recall a governor during his/her first year in office. In fact, I don't think you can even start the petition process.

Link (http://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/Wisconsin_Governor_Recall_Cant_Start_For_A_Year_11 6497293.html)

This places a recall about 10 months away, since I think he took office in January.

Leroy Lizard
2/22/2011, 08:31 PM
They really should take a step back from this one - in Wisconsin, you can't recall a governor during his/her first year in office. In fact, I don't think you can even start the petition process.

Link (http://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/Wisconsin_Governor_Recall_Cant_Start_For_A_Year_11 6497293.html)

This places a recall about 10 months away, since I think he took office in January.

So should we tell them? :D

Thaumaturge
2/22/2011, 09:22 PM
Dude, you started the thread thus throwing the first splinter.

But but but but...

REDREX
2/22/2011, 10:28 PM
Ed Schultz is an idiot

Turd_Ferguson
2/22/2011, 10:31 PM
Ed Schultz is a ****ing idiotfixed

TitoMorelli
2/23/2011, 11:25 AM
nm

The Profit
2/23/2011, 11:31 AM
I like Ed Schultz. He stands up for the common man against the greed and corruption of banks and corporations....God bless the man.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/23/2011, 11:47 AM
I like Ed Schultz. He stands up for the common man against the greed and corruption of banks and corporations....God bless the man.Gosh, Profit, which other informative, educational shows should we be watching/listening to?

badger
2/23/2011, 11:47 AM
Wisconsin update: The Dems filibustered last night, sending session into the wee hours this morning.

Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=13&articleid=20110223_13_0_MADISO294594)

Neither side seems to be backing down. The Democrats presented more than 60 amendments to the unpopular (among the protesters and unions, at least)
bill, then offered to adjourn for the evening. The Republicans, however, proceeded to vote down every last amendment rather than going to bed.

I'm not going to start a new thread, but the linked article suggests that the mess that has spilled into Indiana has now meandered its way over to Ohio, where they apparently are blocking protesters from camping out in the capitol like Mad-town has taken to. It's really too bad for the Wisconsin capitol. I've been there several times and it was really an awesome building and it sounds like the protesters have just trashed the place. :(

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/23/2011, 11:49 AM
True Colors are on display.

badger
2/23/2011, 12:04 PM
True Colors are on display.

I think the Dems bringing in thousands to trash the capitol pretty much ruined any chances of compromise at this point. The fact that Wisconsin is now on a national stage and everyone is seeing who will bend first... it sucks for the non-sworn public employees. They're likely going to endure both layoffs and benefit cuts at this point. This grandstanding crap didn't bring their cause sympathy, it won't get the governor recalled (because again, he can't be until next January) and simply put, the Dems will not have the votes or power to stop this, even with filibustering, even with hotels in Chicago.

It's time to end this madness and let the TV cameras go bother Indy or Ohio. My poor Badger State has been through enough :(

REDREX
2/23/2011, 12:06 PM
I like Ed Schultz. He stands up for the common man against the greed and corruption of banks and corporations....God bless the man.
----He stands up for the talking points of MSNBC---

badger
2/23/2011, 01:02 PM
Another update: Gov. Walker was apparently prank called by someone posing as Koch.

I listened to the entire thing and I'm afraid there's nothing totally incriminating or funny in there, for those of you getting your hopes up.

However, Walker does give away his cards a little bit too freely.

1- He said they're investigating whether the Dem's Chicago hotel expenses are getting picked up by other organizations, which can constitute a political donation/bribery, which can also be used against the organizations funding them because it's preventing state government from holding votes, and:

2- He was going to invite the Dems to a sit-down-and-discuss meeting on the condition that all 14 Dems return to the Capitol under the guise that it wasn't a session, knowing that just getting them back would be enough to get the ball rolling on the vote again.

So, neither of those things are probably happening anymore. The parts of the photo conversation that were particularly enlightening was the mention of a NY Times article that I must look up now talking about how everyone in Wisky supports the bill except for those in the teacher's union or have family members (read: spouses) in the teacher's union, as well as talking about how public and media support is starting to die down... I don't think this phone conversation is going to do anything to pick it back up.

Anyway, I'm sure you all want to listen:

WBnSv3a6Nh4

Z3a2pYGr7-k

I'm sure his detractors will point and say SEE! SEE! Bought and paid for by Koch! But if that was the case, don't you think he'd be able to tell that he was getting punked? If someone called and tried to be a close friend or family member, if we were talking for 20 minutes, I'd be able to tell that they were not the person they claimed to be.

EDIT: I think this (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22union.html?ref=us) is the NY Times article Walker was referring to. Walker's office has confirmed that this was indeed the governor speaking, btw.

soonercruiser
2/23/2011, 01:17 PM
Wisconsin update: The Dems filibustered last night, sending session into the wee hours this morning.

Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=13&articleid=20110223_13_0_MADISO294594)

Neither side seems to be backing down. The Democrats presented more than 60 amendments to the unpopular (among the protesters and unions, at least)
bill, then offered to adjourn for the evening. The Republicans, however, proceeded to vote down every last amendment rather than going to bed.

I'm not going to start a new thread, but the linked article suggests that the mess that has spilled into Indiana has now meandered its way over to Ohio, where they apparently are blocking protesters from camping out in the capitol like Mad-town has taken to. It's really too bad for the Wisconsin capitol. I've been there several times and it was really an awesome building and it sounds like the protesters have just trashed the place. :(

If I'm the gov, I send the unions the clean-up bill.

But, that reminds me of a report I saw about the different marches/protest in D.C. on the national mall.
The Pro-Aborts/women's rights folks simply tarsh the national mall every time they are there.
But, the Pro-Lifers made a point to leave the place as clean as they could.
That tells you a little about what kind of people they are! :rolleyes:

The Profit
2/23/2011, 01:20 PM
If I'm the gov, I send the unions the clean-up bill.

But, that reminds me of a report I saw about the different marches/protest in D.C. on the national mall.
The Pro-Aborts/women's rights folks simply tarsh the national mall every time they are there.
But, the Pro-Lifers made a point to leave the place as clean as they could.
That tells you a little about what kind of people they are! :rolleyes:




Uh,uh,uh,uh okay.

delhalew
2/23/2011, 02:46 PM
Uh,uh,uh,uh okay.

You sound just like Mr. Schultz.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/23/2011, 02:52 PM
You sound just like Mr. Schultz.He is equally persuasive, too.

REDREX
2/23/2011, 06:43 PM
He is equally persuasive, too.---And as informed on the issue as Rachel Maddow

MamaMia
2/23/2011, 07:14 PM
Wisconsin update: The Dems filibustered last night, sending session into the wee hours this morning.

Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=13&articleid=20110223_13_0_MADISO294594)

Neither side seems to be backing down. The Democrats presented more than 60 amendments to the unpopular (among the protesters and unions, at least)
bill, then offered to adjourn for the evening. The Republicans, however, proceeded to vote down every last amendment rather than going to bed.

I'm not going to start a new thread, but the linked article suggests that the mess that has spilled into Indiana has now meandered its way over to Ohio, where they apparently are blocking protesters from camping out in the capitol like Mad-town has taken to. It's really too bad for the Wisconsin capitol. I've been there several times and it was really an awesome building and it sounds like the protesters have just trashed the place. :(One of my former classmates husbands has a contracting company there and she said that the building is totally trashed. She said the union workers literally put small nails and tacks in the wooden railings in order to hang signs. There is also a lot of chipped marble and alabaster all over the building. She said that its going to cost the taxpayers tens of thousands to make the repairs but that the building will never be the same because of the damaged stonework. :(

Oh...and she said they are having to remove duct tape off of everything.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/23/2011, 07:42 PM
One of my former classmates husbands has a contracting company there and she said that the building is totally trashed. She said the union workers literally put small nails and tacks in the wooden railings in order to hang signs. There is also a lot of chipped marble and alabaster all over the building. She said that its going to cost the taxpayers tens of thousands to make the repairs but that the building will never be the same because of the damaged stonework. :(

Oh...and she said they are having to remove duct tape off of everything.UNIONS = NEW MAFIA = ________________!!!

soonercruiser
2/23/2011, 09:16 PM
One of my former classmates husbands has a contracting company there and she said that the building is totally trashed. She said the union workers literally put small nails and tacks in the wooden railings in order to hang signs. There is also a lot of chipped marble and alabaster all over the building. She said that its going to cost the taxpayers tens of thousands to make the repairs but that the building will never be the same because of the damaged stonework. :(

Oh...and she said they are having to remove duct tape off of everything.

MamaMia! Let me guess!
This isn't being reported on the LameStream media?
(CBS, NBS, ABS, MSNBS, CNNBS......)
:rolleyes:

usmc-sooner
2/23/2011, 09:28 PM
MamaMia! Let me guess!
This isn't being reported on the LameStream media?
(CBS, NBS, ABS, MSNBS, CNNBS......)
:rolleyes:

I don't see where she claimed anything like this

badger
2/23/2011, 09:30 PM
One of my former classmates husbands has a contracting company there and she said that the building is totally trashed. She said the union workers literally put small nails and tacks in the wooden railings in order to hang signs. There is also a lot of chipped marble and alabaster all over the building. She said that its going to cost the taxpayers tens of thousands to make the repairs but that the building will never be the same because of the damaged stonework. :(

Oh...and she said they are having to remove duct tape off of everything.

True story - I once was asked to remove signs from LNC's red carpet siding by a yellow shirt because Joe C. saw em and thought I was using tape and thought it might damage the red carpet siding. I told him I was using tacks and wasn't damaging Joe C's carpeted walls, but then the security guard gave me a very pathetic look like "Please don't make me go back to Joe C. without those signs down pretty please please please" so my signs came down :mad:

... for the record, the signs were a big row of 3's, back when OU had Erin Higgins, Leah Rush and other players that never missed 3's :)

SanJoaquinSooner
2/24/2011, 11:41 PM
And what NCLB laws would a principal have to comply with that he shouldn't have to anyway?


I'll give two examples of behaviors that are a result from NCLB legislation which I believe are counter to good educational practice.

1. A school needs a math teacher, but there are no applicants with math credentials. In the old days, they might find a teacher with a credential but short on math units and give him a temporary authorization or emergency credential. Maybe he had only 15 or 18 semester units of math with a calculus course or two- but maybe enough to get by to teach pre-algebra and beginning algebra.

As a result of NCLB, that temporary teacher is not "highly qualified" and the school gets dinged for using him/her. So instead, the school uses substitute teachers to avoid the ding. I saw a class run two months with a series of subs. One for a week or so, then they bring in another and so on. Well, after a series of subs, the immates have taken over the asylum. When they did find a newly credentialed math teacher to enter mid-year, he lasted one day and quit.

2. Some administrators play the game... let's see, if we put Johnny in a below-grade level class, he'll score higher on the state test, but we'll get dinged because he's in a low level class. We could put him in algebra, but he's not really ready for algebra and will score low on the state test so we'll get dinged for that. Which is the smaller ding? We'll go with that to make our decision. This is among the worst abuses resulting from NCLB - students are placed in classes in the best interest of the school (to avoid the school improvement hit list) not the student. this is the tip of the iceberg, leroy. It's one decision after another to avoid dings by the bean counters, even if it sacrifices educational quality.... it's the central planning commitee of the politburo threatening to replace you and your staff if your quota of dings is unsatifactory. so you and your staff make bizarre decisions that in the end run counter to long-term educational achievement.

Leroy Lizard
2/25/2011, 02:12 AM
I'll give two examples of behaviors that are a result from NCLB legislation which I believe are counter to good educational practice.

1. A school needs a math teacher, but there are no applicants with math credentials. In the old days, they might find a teacher with a credential but short on math units and give him a temporary authorization or emergency credential. Maybe he had only 15 or 18 semester units of math with a calculus course or two- but maybe enough to get by to teach pre-algebra and beginning algebra.

As a result of NCLB, that temporary teacher is not "highly qualified" and the school gets dinged for using him/her. So instead, the school uses substitute teachers to avoid the ding. I saw a class run two months with a series of subs. One for a week or so, then they bring in another and so on. Well, after a series of subs, the immates have taken over the asylum. When they did find a newly credentialed math teacher to enter mid-year, he lasted one day and quit.

True, but I'm not sure that this makes the principal's job that much tougher. And schools, by and large, have already solved this problem since there is a massive teacher glut throughout the country.

Besides, who determines what is a highly qualified teacher? Not the NCLB. The Act only requires that states set a standard for their teachers. (The feds do mandate that, at minimum, a teacher needs to have a bachelors degree and be credentialed, but the credential can be an emergency credential -- that is up to the state.)


2. Some administrators play the game... let's see, if we put Johnny in a below-grade level class, he'll score higher on the state test,

Why? The state tests grade-level content. Placing a student in a below-grade-level class is almost a sure-fire way for him to fail the state tests.


but we'll get dinged because he's in a low level class.

Which NCLB law are you referencing?


We could put him in algebra, but he's not really ready for algebra and will score low on the state test so we'll get dinged for that. Which is the smaller ding? We'll go with that to make our decision. This is among the worst abuses resulting from NCLB - students are placed in classes in the best interest of the school (to avoid the school improvement hit list) not the student.

School Improvement comes down to test score proficiency. The NCLB mandates a certain increase in test score proficiency each year, and if you fail to make that target you can end up on School Improvement.

Meeting the basic requirements of the NCLB is not that hard, and nearly all districts have been able to do it... except for state-test score proficiency. There schools have struggled. It isn't where you place the student, but how well you teach him.

The NCLB is the scapegoat for inadequate instruction and misguided school policies. Districts simply don't know how to solve their most basic problem --- teaching kids.


this is the tip of the iceberg, leroy. It's one decision after another to avoid dings by the bean counters, even if it sacrifices educational quality.... it's the central planning commitee of the politburo threatening to replace you and your staff if your quota of dings is unsatifactory. so you and your staff make bizarre decisions that in the end run counter to long-term educational achievement.

If you fail to get off School Improvement after five years, you become eligible for the Turnaround Model (staff replacement), but it is not required. A district does not have to apply the Turnaround Model to its schools if it doesn't want to. However, if it wants School Improvement grant money it must employ at least the Transformation Model (which does not require staff replacement other than the principal), although if the district has more than nine schools requesting School Improvement grant money it must designate some of the schools for the Turnaround Model. (This would only affect two districts in Oklahoma because Oklahoma has very few schools on School Improvement.)

Few of these dings, if any, sacrifice educational quality. Most of the responses to NCLB are ill-advised, lazy attempts to skirt around the real problems. To get off School Improvement you must improve test scores, and that means teachers must perform better in the classroom. Essentially, it comes down to that.

SanJoaquinSooner
2/25/2011, 02:24 AM
Here's a tidbit from http://www.edsource.org/pub11-middle-grades-math.html


Schools serving mostly low-income students placed greater percentages of 8th graders into Algebra I than did schools serving mostly middle-income students.

any conjectures why this occurs?


from same report:

In July 2008, California’s multitest approach in 8th
grade contributed to a heated controversy about when
students should take Algebra I. The spark was the
SBE’s response to a finding by the U.S. Department
of Education that California’s General Mathematics
CST does not comply with federal testing requirements
under the No Child Left Behind Act because it
tests 8th graders on 6th and 7th grade standards


State policymakers and education leaders
disagreed about how California should respond.
One possibility was a replacement grade 8 test
that would assess a subset of the state’s Algebra I
standards, excluding content such as factoring
and quadratic equations. Ultimately, the SBE
passed a motion in July 2008 that called for the
current Algebra I CST to become “the sole test of
record” for grade 8 mathematics for federal school
accountability purposes.

A legal challenge filed about two months later
successfully blocked this policy. But the conflict
exposed deep disagreement in the state about
when students should take Algebra I and under
what conditions. The underlying tension between
federal and state education policy regarding testing
in grade 8 mathematics has not been resolved
as of this writing.

Leroy Lizard
2/25/2011, 03:14 AM
Here's a tidbit from http://www.edsource.org/pub11-middle-grades-math.html


Schools serving mostly low-income students placed greater percentages of 8th graders into Algebra I than did schools serving mostly middle-income students.

any conjectures why this occurs?


from same report:

In July 2008, California’s multitest approach in 8th
grade contributed to a heated controversy about when
students should take Algebra I. The spark was the
SBE’s response to a finding by the U.S. Department
of Education that California’s General Mathematics
CST does not comply with federal testing requirements
under the No Child Left Behind Act because it
tests 8th graders on 6th and 7th grade standards

From the California state content standards


The standards for grades eight through twelve are organized differently from those for kindergarten through grade seven. In this section strands are not used for organizational purposes as they are in the elementary grades because the mathematics studied in grades eight through twelve falls naturally under discipline headings: algebra, geometry, and so forth. Many schools teach this material in traditional courses; others teach it in an integrated fashion. To allow local educational agencies and teachers flexibility in teaching the material, the standards for grades eight through twelve do not mandate that a particular discipline be initiated and completed in a single grade. The core content of these subjects must be covered; students are expected to achieve the standards however these subjects are sequenced.

Now go to the state test blueprints:

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/algebraI1105.doc

Same content as in the eighth-grade standards for algebra. To wit:

The CSTs in Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, and Integrated Mathematics 1, 2, and 3 are end-of-course tests taken by students in grades eight through eleven.

In other words, you can teach the material appearing on the state test.

Besides, how in the Hell can you blame the NCLB? The Act tells states that they must correlate their state tests with their standards. How can you blame the NCLB for instances when you think the state test doesn't align?

AlboSooner
2/25/2011, 10:38 AM
Looks like it passed the assembly:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/25/6130372-badger-state-showdown-assembly-passes-controversial-bill#comments

badger
2/25/2011, 12:06 PM
Looks like it passed the assembly:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/02/25/6130372-badger-state-showdown-assembly-passes-controversial-bill#comments

Ja. That means it's up to the senate, so nothing will happen if they can't find those missing 14 dems (hint: they're in chicago)

So, what does that mean for the state till this bill passes? Layoff notices, en masse, are getting prepped around the state to send teachers.

I am not sure about the specifics of the law, but they are preliminary non-renewal notices that must be sent out by the end of the month. Teachers will then have the possibility of being retained if the budget allows. Read more here:

Link (http://www.jsonline.com/news/education/116895018.html)

So last week, the story was that Wisconsin had teachers angry and protesting cuts to benefits and health coverage. This week, the stories go from anger to sadness, because this is the week (extending into Monday I guess... is this a leap year?) that prelim layoffs have to be made, or teachers by law (again, I think, I assume, I don't know for sure) will have to be retained for next year.

Angry, absent teachers one week, crying, worried teachers this week. I can only imagine the toll this is taking on the kids at this point. Anyone else slip up and call teachers "mom" at least once in grade school? :(

Leroy Lizard
2/25/2011, 12:38 PM
Angry, absent teachers one week, crying, worried teachers this week. I can only imagine the toll this is taking on the kids at this point. Anyone else slip up and call teachers "mom" at least once in grade school? :(

Kids? This is about kids?

badger
2/25/2011, 12:50 PM
Looking awfully aggie orange in the assembly:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/02/26/us/26states1-cnd/26states1-cnd-articleLarge.jpg

StoopTroup
2/25/2011, 01:42 PM
The orange is pretty bad.

I saw something brought up about Candidate Obama saying he'd walk picketlines to support Labor.....but I guess once he became POTUS he's become a bit busy.

As big a deal it is to walk a picketline if you were POTUS....right now....this isn't a picketline. This is about finding our whether or not the Gov. of Wisconsin can send the National Guard out once Obama joins the picketline.....lol

Leroy Lizard
2/25/2011, 10:21 PM
Looking awfully aggie orange in the assembly:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/02/26/us/26states1-cnd/26states1-cnd-articleLarge.jpg

Man, union people are so bitter.

badger
2/26/2011, 09:48 AM
Wisconsin update: Today is the day that everyone is supposed to show up at their homestate's capitol at noon and show support for the Wisconsin unions. Not sure what the response will be - this story may have already run its course, even though the Wisconsin capitol is still filled with protest signs and protesters and the senate has yet to come out of hiding (yes, Chicago)

the pic above is democrats in the Wisconsin state House after the bill passes. It is the end-result of an agreement to only have a limited amount of amendments to discuss (just over 100 I think total) before actually voting. I think Republicans voted down every amendment before using their majority to pass the bill

texaspokieokie
2/26/2011, 10:01 AM
Friend of mine in Kenosha (okmulgee class of 55) & my bro-in-law support the Gov.

My sister (in Plover) & nephew (in stevens point), don't.
push.

nephew is teacher (English Prof) so that is explained, but my sister isn't.

soonercruiser
2/26/2011, 09:15 PM
Friend of mine in Kenosha (okmulgee class of 55) & my bro-in-law support the Gov.

My sister (in Plover) & nephew (in stevens point), don't.push.

nephew is teacher (English Prof) so that is explained, but my sister isn't.

Your sister moved there from Detroit?

Leroy Lizard
2/26/2011, 10:59 PM
From the California state content standards



Now go to the state test blueprints:

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sr/documents/algebraI1105.doc

Same content as in the eighth-grade standards for algebra. To wit:


In other words, you can teach the material appearing on the state test.

Besides, how in the Hell can you blame the NCLB? The Act tells states that they must correlate their state tests with their standards. How can you blame the NCLB for instances when you think the state test doesn't align?

Man, I got snubbed. I slaved all over a hot keyboard all night and I get no response?!?! Snot fair.

SanJoaquinSooner
2/27/2011, 12:07 PM
Man, I got snubbed. I slaved all over a hot keyboard all night and I get no response?!?! Snot fair.

So the conclusion is ...

The feds say "either lower your standards or place all 8th grade students in Algebra I - ready or not."

Cause, Leroy, you know one-size-fits-all in math education, right? Is that how it works at your college? Do all students take the same math course first semester of their freshman year?

Leroy, you apparently have no idea the damage being done. Central committee communist style governing doesn't work well. All students must be proficient by 2014? Yeah, just like the Soviet bureaucrats mandating x bushels of wheat will be produced each year for 50 years, and 50 straight years of fail.

texaspokieokie
2/27/2011, 12:34 PM
Your sister moved there from Detroit?

????

Nope, CA.

Leroy Lizard
2/27/2011, 01:59 PM
So the conclusion is ...

The feds say "either lower your standards or place all 8th grade students in Algebra I - ready or not."

The Feds are saying, "If you're going to teach them X, then test them in X.

And you're going to bitch about that?


Cause, Leroy, you know one-size-fits-all in math education, right? Is that how it works at your college? Do all students take the same math course first semester of their freshman year?

That's the state of California's decision, not the Feds'. In no way does the NCLB mandate eighth-grade algebra, nor does it mandate that eighth-graders be tested in algebra.

Why not blame solar eclipses on the NCLB while we're at it?


Leroy, you apparently have no idea the damage being done...

... by the state of California. The decision to make all eighth-graders take algebra was the state's. The NCLB had nothing to do with it!


Central committee communist style governing doesn't work well. All students must be proficient by 2014? Yeah, just like the Soviet bureaucrats mandating x bushels of wheat will be produced each year for 50 years, and 50 straight years of fail.

As far as the unrealistic 2014 goal, the writers of the NCLB really had no choice. If they make it say 90%, then liberals will claim that "even the national government admits that it is willing to relegate 10% of our students to failure." (Would they do such a thing? ****in-A!) If they make the goal past 2014, then nothing gets done because reaching the goal becomes the problem for one's successor.

Flagstaffsooner
2/27/2011, 02:12 PM
Lizard and Juan, Meeting of the Mindless.:D

47straight
2/27/2011, 05:58 PM
Looking awfully aggie orange in the assembly:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/02/26/us/26states1-cnd/26states1-cnd-articleLarge.jpg

Middle-aged white screaming about the government.


I thought that was the problem democrats had with the tea-partiers?

oulucas
2/27/2011, 06:19 PM
Middle-aged white screaming about the government.


I thought that was the problem democrats had with the tea-partiers?

Yeah, but these folks probably graduated from high school and even have a college degree.

Leroy Lizard
2/27/2011, 07:13 PM
Lizard and Juan, Meeting of the Mindless.:D

And a "nice day" to you too. :(

SanJoaquinSooner
2/28/2011, 02:13 AM
The Feds are saying, "If you're going to teach them X, then test them in X.

And you're going to bitch about that?



THat's not exactly what they are saying.

In 1997, before NCLB existed, California constructed content standards for each grade level in math. It made Algebra I the "at-grade-level" course for 8th grade. Maybe top half of student are ready for proficiency in Alg I in 8th grade. But no way all 8th graders are. Left to state decisions, those who take Alg I would and should be tested in Alg I. But those who are not ready for it would be tested at below grade level, because, you guessed it, they're below grade level. IN comes the feds who say, no you can't test them below grade level. You have to test them in Alg I even though they aren't taking Alg I (or else you get dinged). Or just lower your standards across the board.

By 8th grade, students should not all be taking the same course. Leroy, ordinarily you would reject such egalitarian thinking. As a math teacher you know all too well about individual differences that aren't solved by hard work and extra practice or tweaking teaching strategies.


That's the state of California's decision, not the Feds'. In no way does the NCLB mandate eighth-grade algebra, nor does it mandate that eighth-graders be tested in algebra. That was California's decision BEFORE NCLB, and California's decision to allow those not in Alg I to test at their level.

Leroy, the first math course for a math major has traditionally been Calc I. If a student chooses to become a math major but starts in precalc, should he still be given a final over Calc I material? I know, that's a ridiculous question. What if the feds tell colleges freshmen math majors have to test at grade level?



Why not blame solar eclipses on the NCLB while we're at it? I blame the W and Teddy conspiracy.



... by the state of California. The decision to make all eighth-graders take algebra was the state's. The NCLB had nothing to do with it!



As far as the unrealistic 2014 goal, the writers of the NCLB really had no choice. If they make it say 90%, then liberals will claim that "even the national government admits that it is willing to relegate 10% of our students to failure." (Would they do such a thing? ****in-A!) If they make the goal past 2014, then nothing gets done because reaching the goal becomes the problem for one's successor.[/QUOTE]

It's idiotic. think if the feds mandated all Calc II college students must show proficiency.


Leroy I appreciate the energy you've devoted to responding. It's clear we aren't going to agree on NCLB. I think it's a liberal's wet dream turned nightmare. You apparently think it's benign. Maybe it is in Arizona.

California used to have subject matter programs for prospective elementary school teachers that typically required a half dozen English courses, two to four math courses, history courses, etc.

Now due to NCLB, to be highly qualified they take a test instead. The degree can be in any subject. A popular path-of-least-resistance at some universities is a major in human development. It has minimal English, math, and history - - much less than the traditional Liberal Studies program had. Then they take test prep courses to learn how to pass the subject matter tests. The tests aren't trivial but the passing cut off scores are low enough so many pass.

I didn't mean to diverge from the original topic, so maybe we can agree to disagree on this.

RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!
2/28/2011, 02:28 AM
Lizard and Juan, Meeting of the Mindless.:DHuh? Whuffo you say that?

Leroy Lizard
2/28/2011, 02:53 AM
THat's not exactly what they are saying.

In 1997, before NCLB existed, California constructed content standards for each grade level in math. It made Algebra I the "at-grade-level" course for 8th grade. Maybe top half of student are ready for proficiency in Alg I in 8th grade. But no way all 8th graders are.

Are all 6th-graders ready for 6th-grade math? If not, what do you do for them in the classroom?

You have to designate grade-level content for each grade. There is nothing special about Algebra I as far as eighth-graders are concerned, because every grade-level below eighth-grade features the Algebra strand, all the way down to kindergarten. Eighth-grade algebra is just a continuation of that strand.

And you can teach algebra to a student who has not mastered below-grade-level content. I consider algebra one of the easiest topics to teach; number sense is one of the hardest. I can take an eighth-grader and teach him to expand a polynomial a helluva lot easier than to add unlike fractions. But you don't need the latter to do the former.

Serious question: Why doesn't CA just create a special set of 8th-grade standards like it does for 7th grade?


By 8th grade, students should not all be taking the same course. Leroy, ordinarily you would reject such egalitarian thinking. As a math teacher you know all too well about individual differences that aren't solved by hard work and extra practice or tweaking teaching strategies.

The problem is that we have raised algebra up on this pedestal of difficulty because we rely on students having below-grade-level skills when in fact they don't need them. Why don't we get worked up about the seventh-grade standards and test? We don't have seventh-grade students taking sixth-grade courses. We don't fret over testing seventh-grade students on seventh-grade material.

The NCLB simply says "define what is appropriate at the eighth-grade level and test them on that material." If California can't figure out what an eighth-grade student needs to learn, that isn't the NCLB's fault.


It's idiotic. think if the feds mandated all Calc II college students must show proficiency.

Sure, I realize that the goal is ridiculous, but what was the alternative?

I won't comment on the single-subject credential test since I don't get involved in elementary school issues very often. You may be right that the NCLB is doing more harm than good in that respect.

OutlandTrophy
2/28/2011, 10:42 AM
A dedicated Teamsters union worker was attending a convention
in Las Vegas and decided to check out the local brothels.

When he got to the first one, he asked the Madam, "Is this a union house?"

"No," she replied, "I'm sorry it isn't."

"Well, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"

"The house gets $80 and the girls get $20," she answered.

Offended at such unfair dealings, the union man stomped off down
the street in search of a more equitable, hopefully unionized shop.

His search continued until finally he reached a brothel where the Madam responded,
"Why yes sir, this is a union house. We observe all union rules."

The man asked, "And, if I pay you $100, what cut do the girls get?"

"The girls get $80 and the house gets $20."

"That's more like it!" the union man said.

He handed the Madam $100, looked around the room, and
pointed to a stunningly attractive green-eyed blonde.


"I'd like her," he said.

"I'm sure you would, sir," said the Madam.

Then she gestured to a 92-year old woman in the corner,
"but Ethel here has 67 years seniority
and according to union rules, she's next."

Leroy Lizard
2/28/2011, 10:47 AM
Hey, that was pretty funny.

badger
2/28/2011, 12:39 PM
Wisconsin update: They were gonna close the Capitol building this weekend, because, you know, things generally tend to close on weekends especially when no sessions are going on, but the protesters got to camp another night, I think it's 14 straight nights now.

The teachers who were absent are apparently getting disciplined by school boards and are not getting paid for missed days. The whole sick day thing with the fake doctor's notes? I don't think anyone is trying to convince anyone at this point that they were sick and not out protesting. They're taking the pay cut and discipline and moving on.

I am not sure what will happen to teachers that didn't call in sick (because they had the days off too --- the school days were called off because of lack of teachers). I imagine they'll be without pay as well.

I have also read reports of them blocking the Cap from people entering. I wonder if they're disallowing new people from entering and just letting the people who were already inside to stay. Ewwwww... wonder how long those guys have been without showers.

soonercruiser
2/28/2011, 02:19 PM
Wisconsin update: They were gonna close the Capitol building this weekend, because, you know, things generally tend to close on weekends especially when no sessions are going on, but the protesters got to camp another night, I think it's 14 straight nights now.

The teachers who were absent are apparently getting disciplined by school boards and are not getting paid for missed days. The whole sick day thing with the fake doctor's notes? I don't think anyone is trying to convince anyone at this point that they were sick and not out protesting. They're taking the pay cut and discipline and moving on.

I am not sure what will happen to teachers that didn't call in sick (because they had the days off too --- the school days were called off because of lack of teachers). I imagine they'll be without pay as well.

I have also read reports of them blocking the Cap from people entering. I wonder if they're disallowing new people from entering and just letting the people who were already inside to stay. Ewwwww... wonder how long those guys have been without showers.

I saw a report this morning that they are trying to get everyone out so they can clean the place up - especially mopping the floors. (then let them return)

After the LW protesters are done, the place prolly doesn't meet basic health code for a public restroom. Even a public restroom requires the Dic*heads to leave befoire cleaning. (Some of them might want to dring the Chlorox!)
Just sayin'...

soonercruiser
2/28/2011, 02:27 PM
On a separate HYPOCRISY note.....

This morning "The One" spoke at the national Governor's Conference - asking the Govs to refrain from deamonizing public workers.
HUH? Obama and the unions can openly and visciously deamonize the Govs and legislatures for trying to balance their budgets. But.....

Another case of LW regressives & community organizers saying...."do as I say; not as I do"!

http://members.cox.net/franklipsinic/Political/not%20facism.jpg


Obama is supposed to be the President of the whole United States.
Not just the parts of the states "occupied" by labor and education unions that don't give a d** about the rest of the Republic! :mad:

Breadburner
2/28/2011, 02:33 PM
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a319/fladj11/Obama%2018/zer0jo.gif

badger
2/28/2011, 03:09 PM
Middle-aged white screaming about the government.


I thought that was the problem democrats had with the tea-partiers?

for the record, that IS the government. those are state house dems who wore those aggy orange shirts during their failed filibuster.

well, at least they didn't leave the state like the state senators :rolleyes:

WISooner
2/28/2011, 03:13 PM
Those people need to leave the capitol.
I'm not sure what message they are delivering right now... other than being a cleaning crews' nuisance.
It WAS crazy down there... but now the group of people that are still there are......strange, to say the least.

CrimsonCream
2/28/2011, 04:37 PM
[QUOTE=soonercruiser;3158356]On a separate HYPOCRISY note.....

This morning "The One" spoke at the national Governor's Conference - asking the Govs to refrain from deamonizing public workers.
HUH? Obama and the unions can openly and visciously deamonize the Govs and legislatures for trying to balance their budgets. But.....

Another case of LW regressives & community organizers saying...."do as I say; not as I do"!

Obama and the Loons along with the corrupt Media are such pathetic sons-of-b*tches.

Remember, this is the Clown that referred to the Republicans as "enemies." Remember, he said if the Republicans came aboard the bus then they "would have to sit in the back." Nice way to build bridges.

Of course, Obama and the Dems are behind the protest. The Unions are his biggest contributors. The Stimulus? Kickbacks, bribes, etc., to the Unions.
You take away the Unions and you will have effectively kicked Obama's @ss in 2012.

Obama isn't a President in any sense of the matter other than he enjoys being President with nose stuck in the air and everybody kissing his @ss.

We as Americans ought to be ashamed.

delhalew
2/28/2011, 04:39 PM
Those people need to leave the capitol.
I'm not sure what message they are delivering right now... other than being a cleaning crews' nuisance.
It WAS crazy down there... but now the group of people that are still there are......strange, to say the least.

If they leave, who will assault random FOX reporters.

Tulsa_Fireman
2/28/2011, 06:19 PM
Wow.

So being we're "deamonizing" by political position as opposed to issues, what color jersey to I have to wear to be part of the un-"deamonized"?

delhalew
2/28/2011, 07:53 PM
Wow.

So being we're "deamonizing" by political position as opposed to issues, what color jersey to I have to wear to be part of the un-"deamonized"?

There is plenty for everyone. No one goes un-"deamonized".

Leroy Lizard
2/28/2011, 07:58 PM
Wow.

So being we're "deamonizing" by political position as opposed to issues, what color jersey to I have to wear to be part of the un-"deamonized"?

I want to know how I get amonized.

TitoMorelli
2/28/2011, 08:33 PM
Those people need to leave the capitol.
I'm not sure what message they are delivering right now... other than being a cleaning crews' nuisance.
It WAS crazy down there... but now the group of people that are still there are......strange, to say the least.


So do you wanna wake this guy, or should badger go down there? :)


http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04sU66f4YP5b0/x610.jpg

MADISON, WI - FEBRUARY 27: Hallis Mailen sleeps in the capitol rotunda as a round-the-clock protest over the proposed Budget Repair bill continues on February 27, 2011 in Madison, Wisconsin. Demonstrators have occupied the building's interior for the past 13 days protesting Governor Scott Walker's attempt to push through the bill that would restrict collective bargaining for most government workers in the state. Law enforcement official have said they would clear protestors from the building so that it can be cleaned today at 4 PM, the buildings regular Sunday closing time.

Leroy Lizard
2/28/2011, 08:44 PM
So do you wanna wake this guy, or should badger go down there? :)

Probably the PE coach.

SCOUT
2/28/2011, 09:20 PM
So do you wanna wake this guy, or should badger go down there? :)


http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/04sU66f4YP5b0/x610.jpg

MADISON, WI - FEBRUARY 27: Hallis Mailen sleeps in the capitol rotunda as a round-the-clock protest over the proposed Budget Repair bill continues on February 27, 2011 in Madison, Wisconsin. Demonstrators have occupied the building's interior for the past 13 days protesting Governor Scott Walker's attempt to push through the bill that would restrict collective bargaining for most government workers in the state. Law enforcement official have said they would clear protestors from the building so that it can be cleaned today at 4 PM, the buildings regular Sunday closing time.

Heh, rotunda

soonercruiser
2/28/2011, 10:07 PM
Post retracted.
Problem might be the Cox website!

soonercruiser
2/28/2011, 10:15 PM
Heh, rotunda

I likie!
Please post a"round"!
:D

Curly Bill
2/28/2011, 10:21 PM
Betcha the fat guy is an art teacher.

soonercruiser
2/28/2011, 11:47 PM
Fart teacher????
The chilimeister!

Leroy Lizard
3/1/2011, 12:39 AM
His sign says "Veterans for Peace." What war did he fight in? The cola wars?

sappstuf
3/1/2011, 12:40 AM
Betcha the fat guy is an art teacher.

Those that can't do teach. Those that can't teach, teach gym class..

dwarthog
3/1/2011, 07:59 AM
His sign says "Veterans for Peace." What war did he fight in? The cola wars?

Looks more like a Buffet war, and he appears to have put in a solid effort based on that photograph. :D

King Barry's Back
3/1/2011, 08:19 AM
I also lol at the fact that every midwest state gets referred to as "The Heartland." even wisconsin. i never thought of wisconsin as a heartland state. wisky is a great lakes state.

To East/West coasters, nothing of interest or importance ever happens way out there in the middle. When they say "hearland," they are looking for a nice way of saying "fly-over country." And the fact that they use "heartland" for every mid-western is a symptom of the fact that they really can't be bothered to tell the difference between them.

The coastal elites must be shocked, SHOCKED, that suddenly the world seems to be orbiting around Madison. (A VERY nice town by the way.)

SanJoaquinSooner
3/1/2011, 08:45 AM
To East/West coasters, nothing of interest or importance ever happens way out there in the middle. When they say "hearland," they are looking for a nice way of saying "fly-over country." And the fact that they use "heartland" for every mid-western is a symptom of the fact that they really can't be bothered to tell the difference between them.

The coastal elites must be shocked, SHOCKED, that suddenly the world seems to be orbiting around Madison. (A VERY nice town by the way.)
Heartland is a compliment.

badger
3/1/2011, 10:22 AM
It is a compliment, not complaining, but it's funny that it's used interchangeably so much.

Wisconsin update: The building still isn't getting cleaned - the protesters are determined to tick others off (I'm sure they're having fun) by staying. Here's an interesting story on the cleaner's perspective:

Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01land.html?src=twrhp)

WISooner
3/1/2011, 10:31 AM
Badger, are you in Madison?
I moved to Madison about 10 years ago from OK.

badger
3/1/2011, 10:53 AM
Badger, are you in Madison?
I moved to Madison about 10 years ago from OK.

No - I lived in Wisconsin the first 18 years of my life and still have family and friends up there that I visit as often as possible. I moved to OK when I came to OU and now live in Tulsa.

Got any personal insight reports from the town itself, rather than me linking youtube videos and NYTimes articles?

soonercruiser
3/1/2011, 11:31 AM
His sign says "Veterans for Peace." What war did he fight in? The cola wars?

Another Vietnam vet with brain damage and nothing left to accomplish in their lives (like Charlie S.). :rolleyes:

soonercruiser
3/1/2011, 11:43 AM
It is a compliment, not complaining, but it's funny that it's used interchangeably so much.

Wisconsin update: The building still isn't getting cleaned - the protesters are determined to tick others off (I'm sure they're having fun) by staying. Here's an interesting story on the cleaner's perspective:

Link (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01land.html?src=twrhp)

Thanks for the article Badger.


Late on Sunday afternoon, as government officials gradually withdrew plans to end the overnight stays in the Capitol — only to lock out additional protesters on Monday morning — many in the custodial crew gathered below, in the basement, for a mandatory-overtime shift.

An overtime shift made mandatory by the amount of trash left by the protesters. Surely the cleaning crew works in silent obedience.
FOR.....if they were to raise their voices in protest to the trashing of the noble marble palace, (whether union or non-union worker) they would surely feel the wrath of the union thugs.....like my father in WVa.
He nearly lost his life for not "obeying" the union boss! :(

Aldebaran
3/1/2011, 02:29 PM
A public employee, a member of the Tea Party and a greedy CEO sit at a table with a dozen cookies on a plate. The CEO reaches across, takes 11 of the cookies, looks at the tea partier and says, "Watch out for that Union Guy: He wants a piece of your cookie."

Leroy Lizard
3/1/2011, 06:14 PM
A public employee, a member of the Tea Party and a greedy CEO sit at a table with a dozen cookies on a plate. The CEO reaches across, takes 11 of the cookies, looks at the tea partier and says, "Watch out for that Union Guy: He wants a piece of your cookie."

You're not a comedian, are you?

REDREX
3/1/2011, 06:16 PM
Heh, rotunda--- Probably a Hygiene instructor---check out the bottom of his feet

47straight
3/1/2011, 08:40 PM
A public employee, a member of the Tea Party and a greedy CEO sit at a table with a dozen cookies on a plate. The CEO reaches across, takes 11 of the cookies, looks at the tea partier and says, "Watch out for that Union Guy: He wants a piece of your cookie."

A public employee, the president of the US, and the governor of Wisconsin sit at a table. The governor of Wisconsin says, "You can come work for me, but you can only collectively bargain for base salary." The president of the US says "That guy hates you with all his hateful hate talk. And you can't collective bargain at all if you come work for me."

The media and Alderbaran at the next table agree with the president that the Wisconsin governor is a jerk and ignore what's really on the table.

badger
3/2/2011, 12:32 PM
A judge from the county that Madison's in ruled that the capitol has to be open during business hours to the public. Perhaps they can interpret that as "get out after dark and stop bring sleeping bags into the rotunda so we can finally clean in peace?"

In other Wisconsin news, sounds like some districts are getting teachers' contracts in place and others are waiting out to see if/when the bill passes.

Despite my conservative and Republican leanings, I enjoyed my quality of education back in Wisky and the teachers genuinely seemed to care about us bratty students. Sometimes they'd move to larger districts to get more take-home pay, but for the most part, they'd be patient with the dum-dums and tolerate the smarties more than our parents probably did. Many of them were volunteer, unpaid coaches for sports teams, advisers for various school groups and involved in the community.

But... Wisconsin's broke and its income and property taxes are already pretty high (although their sales taxes I think are still hovering around the 5-6 percent range depending on which county you live in). There's no room to raise taxes at this point, not in this economy, I don't think. Cutting the budget and therefore public employees benefits/pay/jobs might be the only option left.

SanJoaquinSooner
3/5/2011, 01:27 PM
All this union talk reminds me of the union commericials back in the day.

The first one is real and the second one is the SNL parody.

QO7VUklDlQw

bdlIPAB1blA&

badger
3/6/2011, 07:52 PM
Wisky update: Really looks like the Dems are coming home as the protest signs are coming down in the capitol building. Apparently they were all photographed, those that were requested by the original owners are getting returned, and some images will go to the Smithsonian and Wisconsin Historical Society to commemorate the event.

Regardless of which side you support, this might be one of the most significant political events in Wisconsin's history... perhaps not more than Fightin' Bob Lafollette, perhaps not more than McCarthy's anti-commie run, but still significant nonetheless.

I am not sure where Wisconsin goes from here... the tide seems to be turning on whether or not unions will get to keep bargaining power, but most public opinions still seems to be that it's time for fair share benefit payments during a crappy economy.