New Abortion Ban?

[sooner59]

This should get interesting. 18 days....some may not even realize they are pregnant in the first 18 days. Should be interesting to hear these debates.

http://www.koco.com/health/26839326/detail.html


OKLAHOMA CITY -- Oklahoma lawmakers said they are closely reviewing a controversial abortion bill in Ohio.

They said if the bill passes, abortion will be illegal if the fetus has a heart beat. A fetal heart beat starts as soon as 18 days after conception.

"Once the heartbeat is detected the baby is protected. Pretty simple,” said Al Gerhardstein, a civil rights attorney. “It pushes the ban way up into the first trimester, which is clearly unconstitutional."

If the the bill passes legal hurdles, lawmakers in Oklahoma, Texas and other states said they would be interested in similar laws.

:pop:

[Leroy Lizard]

The constitutionality of an abortion law depends on the trimester in which the abortion takes place? How does that work? (Serious question.)

[sooner ngintunr]

The constitutionality of an abortion law depends on the trimester in which the abortion takes place? How does that work? (Serious question.)

Roe v Wade.

"state interests become stronger over the course of a pregnancy, the Court resolved this balancing test by tying state regulation of abortion to the mother's current trimester of pregnancy."

No way would the Ohio law be upheld by the SCOTUS.

[sooner59]

That's what I was thinking. Sounds like its altogether unconstitutional. Viewpoints aside, I don't know how it could possibly pass. Then again...we've seen strange things happen before.

[Fraggle145]

Jeezus people. Give it a ****ing rest. Abortion is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

[picasso]

Jeezus people. Give it a ****ing rest. Abortion is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

Who lost exactly? It's not a game.

[bigfatjerk]

I don't think states or feds should have anything to do with abortion. It should be 100% up to the individual(s) involved.

[Leroy Lizard]

I don't think states or feds should have anything to do with abortion. It should be 100% up to the individual(s) involved.

****, here we go again.

[sappstuf]

I don't think states or feds should have anything to do with abortion. It should be 100% up to the individual(s) involved.

I'm sure the unborn child will be ecstatic to hear that.

[bigfatjerk]

I'm sure the unborn child will be ecstatic to hear that.

I'm personally against it. But some situations it should be up to the mother and the family. If my girlfriend wanted an abortion for some reason I would basically beg her not to do it. But I'm all for the person having abortion as an option. It's better than leaving a baby abandoned.

[oumartin]

Yea!!! If you abort a fetus you should abort the mother.

[Harry Beanbag]

Jeezus people. Give it a ****ing rest. Abortion is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.


Wow, I thought you were smarter than this.

[47straight]

Dangit people. Give it a ****ing rest. Theft is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

[47straight]

Dangit people. Give it a ****ing rest. Murder is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

[47straight]

Dangit people. Give it a ****ing rest. Racism is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

[47straight]

Dangit people. Give it a ****ing rest. War is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

[47straight]

Dangit people. Give it a ****ing rest. Trespass to chattels is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

[sperry]

Unconstitutional. The court isn't going to change it's make up any time soon either. Abortion is pretty much THE issue, and it's 5-4 right now, so none of the current justices will retire unless there is a sitting president who will replace them with someone who matches them ideologically. Ginsberg, Scalia, and Breyer are the only justices likely to be off the court within the next 15 years. All the others are going to be around a looooong time.

[delhalew]

I liked the bill that would make an ultrasound mandatory before an abortion.

Abortion has nothing to do with the Constitution. Roe v Wade is nothing more than a court decision.

The big flashing sign pointing to hypocrisy of today's liberal is the abortion issue. This article examines that from the liberal perspective.

http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/pub-thelib-03.html

That article is impressive to me because I'm not sure I've ever met a liberal willing to show the intellectual honesty needed on the abortion issue.

In the end I don't buy it because I don't believe liberals want to protect the innocent and weak. I know that liberalism is really about control, and a belief that an individual left to his own devices is incapable of making a choice that benefits anyone other than themselves. I believe that liberals have these beliefs because they are selfish and feel guilty about it.

In other words I believe liberals are full of ****.

[delhalew]

Funny how once the deed is done, we are no longer talking about a zygote.

Think of Child Every Day

"Not a day goes by that I don't think of my lost child. When I wake up in the morning, I know I've had an abortion. I would never wish this pain on anybody."

"The ghost of the missed happiness torments for years and years even the most rational woman. When you decide not to keep your baby, you start to have two lives: one, real that ONLY SEEMS like the one you had before, the other one, real only for your heart, with your baby, that grows and makes you happy."

"He was real and he was our son and I miss him."

"I always try to say goodnight to [Michael] before I go to bed. I tell him I love him. I know he is with me everywhere I go....I usually wind up crying before I go to bed. "

"I still cry. There isn't a day that goes by and I don't think of the baby, what he or she would look like. "

"There is not day that goes by that I don't think about my baby boy. ... Every November when it gets close to what would have been his due date I get so sad. ... And here I am 12 years later with three beautiful children still with that ache in my heart. ... If anything I feel more guilty now after seeing what great parents we both are."

"I made myself not think about what I was doing, just put my heart away and do what had to be done. I was devastated. . . . There isn't a day that goes by I don't think about my baby."

"I am so sorry. I think about you every day."

http://www.hopeafterabortion.com//hope.cfm?sel=words

[yermom]

I'm personally against it. But some situations it should be up to the mother and the family. If my girlfriend wanted an abortion for some reason I would basically beg her not to do it. But I'm all for the person having abortion as an option. It's better than leaving a baby abandoned.

i'd rather be abandoned at a hospital or church or whatever than dead, but that's just me

[soonervegas]

This is one of those issues that 200 years from now civilization will look at as barbaric.

[Radar's Left Hand]

People often talk about "the line in the sand" and when abortion should no longer be an option. After a detectable heartbeat sounds like a pretty good indicator of life. This is very smart by Ohio.

[yermom]

I liked the bill that would make an ultrasound mandatory before an abortion.

Abortion has nothing to do with the Constitution. Roe v Wade is nothing more than a court decision.

The big flashing sign pointing to hypocrisy of today's liberal is the abortion issue. This article examines that from the liberal perspective.

http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/pub-thelib-03.html

That article is impressive to me because I'm not sure I've ever met a liberal willing to show the intellectual honesty needed on the abortion issue.

In the end I don't buy it because I don't believe liberals want to protect the innocent and weak. I know that liberalism is really about control, and a belief that an individual left to his own devices is incapable of making a choice that benefits anyone other than themselves. I believe that liberals have these beliefs because they are selfish and feel guilty about it.

In other words I believe liberals are full of ****.

i'm pretty much a dirty liberal until you start talking about abortion and guns...

maybe it's because i hate women. that's probably it.

[yermom]

This is one of those issues that 200 years from now civilization will look at as barbaric.

who knows, really

which civilization?

some cultures might still just wait until they are born to kill them.

in 200 years euthanizing retards might be en vogue. we might be restricted to genetically engineered babies like in GATTACA or something. implant a bunch of embryos, pick the one that's going to be 6'2" 225, run a 4.4 40, have blonde hair and blue eyes and a 1600 on its SATs

[delhalew]

i'm pretty much a dirty liberal until you start talking about abortion and guns...

maybe it's because i hate women. that's probably it.

I suspect you just have a hangup about killing defenseless children in sometimes gruesome ways.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Jeezus people. Give it a ****ing rest. Me sneaking over nailing my neighbor's 15 year old daughter is never going to be stopped. Statutory rape may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

[yermom]

Jeezus people. Give it a ****ing rest. Stoners getting high is never going to be stopped. Marijuana may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

oh, wait, nevermind

[MR2-Sooner86]

I'm tired of political candidates p*ssy-footing delicately around the issue of abortion. Every time I turn on the TV, there's always some group of hippies protesting "for choice" or "for life." Each group pisses the other off, and no candidate will take a strong enough stance on the issue of abortion, so I've decided to form a political party of my own:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/regressive1.gif
I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up. The only way I'd be "pro choice" is if it meant I could choose which babies I could abort, and only then if I could lift the age restriction to 80. I was at this mall the other day watching some sh*tty documentary when I came out of the theater and saw old people dancing to country music in the courtyard. I couldn't remember the last time I saw a group of people begging this hard to be aborted.

[delhalew]

I'm tired of political candidates p*ssy-footing delicately around the issue of abortion. Every time I turn on the TV, there's always some group of hippies protesting "for choice" or "for life." Each group pisses the other off, and no candidate will take a strong enough stance on the issue of abortion, so I've decided to form a political party of my own:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/regressive1.gif
I have a different stance on abortion: I'm against abortion, but for killing babies. That way everyone loses, and I win. I'm neither pro choice, nor pro life; I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up. The only way I'd be "pro choice" is if it meant I could choose which babies I could abort, and only then if I could lift the age restriction to 80. I was at this mall the other day watching some sh*tty documentary when I came out of the theater and saw old people dancing to country music in the courtyard. I couldn't remember the last time I saw a group of people begging this hard to be aborted.

I remember when I used to talk like that. Man life is weird.

[soonercruiser]

Jeezus people. Give it a ****ing rest. Abortion is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

This is EXACTLY what the EVIL ONE would love for just people to do.
But, the "Good Fight" requires that we never give up in our efforts to protect the most vulnerable among us.
It was a "slippery slope" that we slid down.
And, with the help of GOD, we can climb back up the slope too.
(As in... the pro-death followers were probably happy with the SCOTUS ruling that put Boooosh in power, weren't they?)
The SCOTUS is human, and therefore imperfect!

[soonercruiser]

I don't think states or feds should have anything to do with abortion. It should be 100% up to the individual(s) involved.

When it's 100% up to the individual, human beings are murdered every day with guns!
Just sayin'.....:rolleyes:

[MR2-Sooner86]

I remember when I used to talk like that. Man life is weird.

Used to? :confused:

[delhalew]

Used to? :confused:

Ok...maybe I haven't changed THAT much. You caught me.

[LesNessman]

Jeezus people. Give it a ****ing rest. Abortion is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

Slavery took a very long time to abolish here in the U.S., but it happened.

It may still exist in some backward countries, but hopefully it won't for much longer.

Same will happen with abortion. It is the ultimate slavery.

[47straight]

Slavery took a very long time to abolish here in the U.S., but it happened.



Abolitionism was a truly disgusting black mark on our history where people forced their values and morality on others.

[bigfatjerk]

When it's 100% up to the individual, human beings are murdered every day with guns!
Just sayin'.....:rolleyes:

I think most people wouldn't have an abortion unless there's extreme situations. And we aren't talking about abortions when the baby has some serious birth defect like a heart that doesn't develop and the baby is dead once they are born anyway. Or there's rare cases when the baby is basically a leach and one or the other survives. I don't think anyone is saying abortion is wrong in those type of cases.

[yermom]

extreme situations like "i want to go to college"

[HBick]

I'm not jumping into the debate, because people have personal opinions that they have a right to have. But there was a study released about a month ago that the number of abortions in the US have remained relatively steady for the last 4 years.

And I think we can all agree on two things, the bill, if introduced will be ruled unconstitutional and that it will be a waste of tax payer money and time by our legislature. We have much more pressing issues facing the state, infrastructure, education and jobs to name a few. Infrastructure in this state is a joke, anyone who drives I40 regularly knows that it's like running the gauntlet. Education needs a massive overhaul, we all know it, I don't have the answer to it, but I'm sure someone in this state could figure out a way. And jobs. This is the most important to me at the moment, as a December 2010 grad, I'm currently searching for a job, and yet the majority of my interviews have been out of the state. I would love to stay in Oklahoma, but the majority of my peers are moving out of state (unless they are in the oil industry), but there simply aren't enough jobs for people my age.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I still think the OK legislature needs to focus on issues that they can have a chance to change instead of beating a dead horse.

[The Profit]

I'm not jumping into the debate, because people have personal opinions that they have a right to have. But there was a study released about a month ago that the number of abortions in the US have remained relatively steady for the last 4 years.

And I think we can all agree on two things, the bill, if introduced will be ruled unconstitutional and that it will be a waste of tax payer money and time by our legislature. We have much more pressing issues facing the state, infrastructure, education and jobs to name a few. Infrastructure in this state is a joke, anyone who drives I40 regularly knows that it's like running the gauntlet. Education needs a massive overhaul, we all know it, I don't have the answer to it, but I'm sure someone in this state could figure out a way. And jobs. This is the most important to me at the moment, as a December 2010 grad, I'm currently searching for a job, and yet the majority of my interviews have been out of the state. I would love to stay in Oklahoma, but the majority of my peers are moving out of state (unless they are in the oil industry), but there simply aren't enough jobs for people my age.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I still think the OK legislature needs to focus on issues that they can have a chance to change instead of beating a dead horse.



Great post. I wish you the best of luck finding a job. What was your major, and what type of job are you searching for.

[yermom]

no one seems to want to wait for me to graduate... i'm not really a normal case though

[HBick]

Great post. I wish you the best of luck finding a job. What was your major, and what type of job are you searching for.

I got a B.A. in Journalism, Advertising. I'm looking at all sorts of careers, from marketing/advertising, market research, social media roles, banking, oil, and also toying with the notion of moving overseas. But that is a last resort, it's so expensive to live overseas as an American because you still pay US taxes along with taxes of the country you reside in.

[pphilfran]

I got a B.A. in Journalism, Advertising. I'm looking at all sorts of careers, from marketing/advertising, market research, social media roles, banking, oil, and also toying with the notion of moving overseas. But that is a last resort, it's so expensive to live overseas as an American because you still pay US taxes along with taxes of the country you reside in.

Many companies will pick up the extra tax burden for ya...

Back on topic...

I was once told...

"Until the fetus can survive on it's own outside the womb, it is nothing but a tumor...."

And I replied...

"Honey, we are going to have a TUMOR!!!!!"

[The Profit]

I got a B.A. in Journalism, Advertising. I'm looking at all sorts of careers, from marketing/advertising, market research, social media roles, banking, oil, and also toying with the notion of moving overseas. But that is a last resort, it's so expensive to live overseas as an American because you still pay US taxes along with taxes of the country you reside in.

Are you willing to move to another state?

[87sooner]

I'm not jumping into the debate, because people have personal opinions that they have a right to have. But there was a study released about a month ago that the number of abortions in the US have remained relatively steady for the last 4 years.

And I think we can all agree on two things, the bill, if introduced will be ruled unconstitutional and that it will be a waste of tax payer money and time by our legislature. We have much more pressing issues facing the state, infrastructure, education and jobs to name a few. Infrastructure in this state is a joke, anyone who drives I40 regularly knows that it's like running the gauntlet. Education needs a massive overhaul, we all know it, I don't have the answer to it, but I'm sure someone in this state could figure out a way. And jobs. This is the most important to me at the moment, as a December 2010 grad, I'm currently searching for a job, and yet the majority of my interviews have been out of the state. I would love to stay in Oklahoma, but the majority of my peers are moving out of state (unless they are in the oil industry), but there simply aren't enough jobs for people my age.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but I still think the OK legislature needs to focus on issues that they can have a chance to change instead of beating a dead horse.

this is why society is headed down the toilet...
people concerned more about highways and their own pocketbooks than the most helpless living HUMAN BEINGS.....
those inside the womb are left to fend for themselves...
there is nothing "more pressing" than protecting life....

maybe college graduates that can't find a job should be euthanized.....that would solve our jobs problem....

[The Profit]

this is why society is headed down the toilet...
people concerned more about highways and their own pocketbooks than the most helpless living HUMAN BEINGS.....
those inside the womb are left to fend for themselves...
there is nothing "more pressing" than protecting life....

maybe college graduates that can't find a job should be euthanized.....that would solve our jobs problem....




Give the kid a break.

[pphilfran]

87...how cold did it get in Enid this week?

[87sooner]

87...how cold did it get in Enid this week?

-23 on the breckinridge mesonet site...

[87sooner]

Give the kid a break.

the "kid" needs some perspective on what's important in life...
mainly....life...

[yermom]

Many companies will pick up the extra tax burden for ya...

Back on topic...

I was once told...

"Until the fetus can survive on it's own outside the womb, it is nothing but a tumor...."

And I replied...

"Honey, we are going to have a TUMOR!!!!!"

my problem with this is that if you stop feeding it after it's born you go to jail.

what about old people?

[pphilfran]

-23 on the breckinridge mesonet site...

Damn...

Lose any livestock?

[The Profit]

the "kid" needs some perspective on what's important in life...
mainly....life...




Just because that is your opinion it doesn't mean it has to be his. He was raised by his own set of parents. Roe v. Wade is the law of the land. It will be the law of the land 50 years from now. It is a woman's right to choose, and during the first trimester, it will continue to be the law of the land.

Perhaps you should worry more about providing food, clothing and housing to the thousands of unwanted kids, who are born each day in this country rather than the discarded embryos of a first trimester.

[87sooner]

Damn...

Lose any livestock?

no...not a one....
but then....i don't own any;)

[The Profit]

no...not a one....
but then....i don't own any;)




He has chickens though.

[pphilfran]

no...not a one....
but then....i don't own any;)

Surely you got a chicken or two....

[87sooner]

Surely you got a chicken or two....

yeah....we keep those warm with a heat lamp in the coop...

[The Profit]

He has chickens though.




My dad grew up on a farm with chickens. After what he saw chicken eat, he never ate chicken.

[pphilfran]

My dad grew up on a farm with chickens. After what he saw chicken eat, he never ate chicken.

My dogs eat chit...and I still let em lick my face.....

[87sooner]

Just because that is your opinion it doesn't mean it has to be his. He was raised by his own set of parents. Roe v. Wade is the law of the land. It will be the law of the land 50 years from now. It is a woman's right to choose, and during the first trimester, it will continue to be the law of the land.

Perhaps you should worry more about providing food, clothing and housing to the thousands of unwanted kids, who are born each day in this country rather than the discarded embryos of a first trimester.

but you're a christian right?

i guess you were raised by your own set of parents too...or something...

[yermom]

My dogs eat chit...and I still let em lick my face.....

well, in that case, i'm not licking your face anymore

[The Profit]

but you're a christian right?

i guess you were raised by your own set of parents too...or something...




It has nothing to do with being a Christian. The bible makes no mention of eliminating an embryo in the first trimester. Besides, the bible or Christianity should not have a frigging thing to do with the laws of our land. We are not a theocracy. Several supreme court decisions have upheld Roe v. Wade, and future supreme courts will continue to.

[pphilfran]

well, in that case, i'm not licking your face anymore

No problem...plenty of other kinky things we can do....

[The Profit]

My dogs eat chit...and I still let em lick my face.....




We have one of those automatic kitty litter trays. The cat does his business, and the tray activates in about 5 minutes. If the dogs have any inking that the cat has journeyed upstairs to his fancy toilet, they are in a mad dash to get to his droppings before they are mysteriously scooped away. And no, I don't let them lick my face.

[Fraggle145]

Who lost exactly? It's not a game.

It is/was a vote isnt it? :confused:

[Fraggle145]

Wow, I thought you were smarter than this.

It ****ing gets old. Everyone preaches how they want the government to get out of peoples lives, until it comes to telling them what they should do with their bodies and that they must have babies.

[Fraggle145]

Dangit people. Give it a ****ing rest. War is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

All of these just make me go like this. :rolleyes:

Its true none of those are going to stopped. The differnce is that most of those examples that you listed (save for war and racism to some extent) are a crime. Abortion isnt. We are actively trying to stop things that are a crime. The overall we as a society are not trying to actively stop abortion.

Regardless, none of these things will be stopped. The world is rough place and life isnt fair. Sucks, but its a fact.

[Fraggle145]

I'm pro you-shutting-the-hell-up.

I can get down with this part of your campaign.

[oumartin]

If you are down with abortion you are cool with murder. It's that simple.
It's disgusting and wrong.

[Fraggle145]

If you are down with abortion you are cool with murder. It's that simple.
It's disgusting and wrong.

In your opinion.

[soonerscuba]

If you are down with abortion you are cool with murder. It's that simple.
It's disgusting and wrong.What if it's for the meat?

[SCOUT]

It has nothing to do with being a Christian. The bible makes no mention of eliminating an embryo in the first trimester. Besides, the bible or Christianity should not have a frigging thing to do with the laws of our land. We are not a theocracy. Several supreme court decisions have upheld Roe v. Wade, and future supreme courts will continue to.

You keep saying that it is the law of the land. Which, exactly, are you referring to?

[AlboSooner]

Jeezus people. Give it a ****ing rest. Abortion is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

It's more than a matter of sour grapes. We are talking about human lives here. I don't understand the nonchalant treatment of such an important issue.

[HBick]

Are you willing to move to another state?

Yes I am. I'm currently looking in Kansas City, Denver, OKC, Tulsa, Dallas, Houston in this region then I'm looking at the Seattle area. Lots of jobs up there with the Tech Industry booming again.

[47straight]

Its true none of those are going to stopped. The differnce is that most of those examples that you listed (save for war and racism to some extent) are a crime. Abortion isnt. We are actively trying to stop things that are a crime. .

So if we make it a crime you're on board?

[47straight]

It ****ing gets old. Everyone preaches how they want the government to get out of peoples lives, until it comes to telling them what they should do with their bodies and that they must have babies.

Everyone preaches how they want the government to get out of peoples lives, until it comes to telling them what they have to give money to fund zoological research.

[HBick]

this is why society is headed down the toilet...
people concerned more about highways and their own pocketbooks than the most helpless living HUMAN BEINGS.....
those inside the womb are left to fend for themselves...
there is nothing "more pressing" than protecting life....

maybe college graduates that can't find a job should be euthanized.....that would solve our jobs problem....

The most helpless human beings? That's where we differ. You think it's a human being, I don't. Also what about the 2 million+ homeless living in our country? Let's STOP WASTING TAX DOLLARS ON ISSUES THAT WERE DECIDED 38 YEARS AGO. You don't have to agree with it, but you should respect it. Besides shouldn't you and your kind be focusing all your collective strength on impeaching the President for whatever issue you have now? Or maybe you could organize a protest about the Healthcare bill. Because guess what, the Supreme Court (yeah the one that decided Roe V. Wade in 1973) will inevitably be deciding at least one of those (Healthcare), possibly the other if the stupid AZ bill passes.

Maybe college graduates who can't find a job should be euthanized? That's the most ignorant statement you've made yet, regardless if you are trying to be funny. For the simple reason that you think you'll be able to collect a social security check if you kill us all off?

[47straight]

The most helpless human beings? That's where we differ. You think it's a human being, I don't. Also what about the 2 million+ homeless living in our country? Let's STOP WASTING TAX DOLLARS ON ISSUES THAT WERE DECIDED 38 YEARS AGO. You don't have to agree with it, but you should respect it. Besides shouldn't you and your kind be focusing all your collective strength on impeaching the President for whatever issue you have now? Or maybe you could organize a protest about the Healthcare bill. Because guess what, the Supreme Court (yeah the one that decided Roe V. Wade in 1973) will inevitably be deciding at least one of those (Healthcare), possibly the other if the stupid AZ bill passes.

Maybe college graduates who can't find a job should be euthanized? That's the most ignorant statement you've made yet, regardless if you are trying to be funny. For the simple reason that you think you'll be able to collect a social security check if you kill us all off?

Dude, you are so right. Plessy v. Ferguson should NEVER have been challenged! In 1952, we should have STOPPED WASTING TAX DOLLARS ON ISSUES THAT WERE DECIDED 56 YEARS BEFORE. Brown v. Board of Education should have never happened. To the rest of you, you don't have to disagree with segregation, but you should respect it!

[HBick]

the "kid" needs some perspective on what's important in life...
mainly....life...

The "kid" need some perspective? I have a perspective and it isn't going to change because someone as ignorant as you tells me too. But hey that's your opinion, you know the one you're entitled too? Just like I'm entitled to my own opinion (which is more relevant than a single issue that was decided 38 years ago). Also did you know that we have a thing is this country called separation of Church and State? You know, check your religious affiliation and views at the door when deciding issues that affect millions? Could you do it? I know I could, even though I'm just a "kid who needs some perspective on what's important in life."

[MamaMia]

Jeezus people. Give it a ****ing rest. Abortion is never going to be stopped. IT may sicken you, but its too ****in bad. You lost. Get over it.

Laws can be changed, and have been. People have the right to express their opinions and fight for what they believe in.

[Fraggle145]

Everyone preaches how they want the government to get out of peoples lives, until it comes to telling them what they have to give money to fund zoological research.

You know the two of those arent the same thing. And when is the last time the government has told you you had to give money to zoology research? Is that the same thing as telling you what to do with your body?

[Fraggle145]

Laws can be changed, and have been. People have the right to express their opinions and fight for what they believe in.

I totally agree, i'm just saying there has been gnashing of teeth over the abortion issue for over 30 years now. Nothing has really changed.

[HBick]

Dude, you are so right. Plessy v. Ferguson should NEVER have been challenged! In 1952, we should have STOPPED WASTING TAX DOLLARS ON ISSUES THAT WERE DECIDED 56 YEARS BEFORE. Brown v. Board of Education should have never happened. To the rest of you, you don't have to disagree with segregation, but you should respect it!

The only thing I see here is that they challenged Plessy v. Ferguson, because it was a violation of Civil Rights correct? Roe v. Wade challenged another issue that falls under civil rights correct? You know, Women's Rights? Does that help illustrate my underlying message?

[soonerscuba]

I am pro-choice because I assume anything evangelical Christians are against is awesome.

[Thaumaturge]

It's more than a matter of sour grapes. We are talking about human lives here. I don't understand the nonchalant treatment of such an important issue.

Neither do I. If it's true that millions of human babies are being systematically slaughtered in this country, you wouldn't know it from the behavior of the people who oppose it. The very, very few who act with the sort of urgency that that reality would demand are recognized by society, I think rightly, for the violent radicals and terrorists that they are.

[Thaumaturge]

Laws can be changed, and have been. People have the right to express their opinions and fight for what they believe in.

Agreed. They also have a right to pretend to fight for what they pretend to believe in, which is more what is being exercised in this instance.

[Fraggle145]

It's more than a matter of sour grapes. We are talking about human lives here. I don't understand the nonchalant treatment of such an important issue.

Unfortunately for all of us millions of human lives, are treated with nonchalance everyday - not just fetus/embryo/baby/whatevers.

[HBick]

I totally agree, i'm just saying there has been gnashing of teeth over the abortion issue for over 30 years now. Nothing has really changed.

True, true. And now that I have to go, I'll say this. It's a woman's choice, her body, her decision. Not mine, never will be. And I'm okay with that. I can't wait to come back tomorrow to see what the (growing) group of people have to say about my last few posts.

[SunnySooner]

Here's my problem with abortion...there are about 997 ways out there these days to NOT get pregnant. Many of them are absolutely free, and one of them, Plan B, can even be taken by your hungover *** the day AFTER you wake up wearing someone's HS football tshirt, or whatever method you were using failed. No prescription needed.

In this day and age, we should have very few abortions every year--only those cases where the health of the mother is truly at risk.

I'm also the mother of a perfectly healthy, beautiful 6 year old I was advised to abort at 18 weeks, because ALL my tests were coming back off or bad. Guess what, there's still SO much modern medicine doesn't know about baby-having. I wonder how many abortions every year are a result of that kind of advice.

If you want to be sexually active, knock yourself out. Just take precautions. Unwanted pregnancy is really not something that is all that difficult to avoid.

[MR2-Sooner86]

Unwanted pregnancy is really not something that is all that difficult to avoid.

Just pour coca-cola in her after you're done and there'll be no worries.

:pop:

[Fraggle145]

Here's my problem with abortion...there are about 997 ways out there these days to NOT get pregnant. Many of them are absolutely free, and one of them, Plan B, can even be taken by your hungover *** the day AFTER you wake up wearing someone's HS football tshirt, or whatever method you were using failed. No prescription needed.

In this day and age, we should have very few abortions every year--only those cases where the health of the mother is truly at risk.

I'm also the mother of a perfectly healthy, beautiful 6 year old I was advised to abort at 18 weeks, because ALL my tests were coming back off or bad. Guess what, there's still SO much modern medicine doesn't know about baby-having. I wonder how many abortions every year are a result of that kind of advice.

If you want to be sexually active, knock yourself out. Just take precautions. Unwanted pregnancy is really not something that is all that difficult to avoid.

I agree with a lot of that - there shouldnt be many abortions. People should use their brains. I wish they did.

[Fraggle145]

Just pour coca-cola in her after you're done and there'll be no worries.

:pop:

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/8429/tlockmeout.jpg

[oumartin]

In your opinion.

If only your mom had aborted you huh.

[bigfatjerk]

Here's my problem with abortion...there are about 997 ways out there these days to NOT get pregnant. Many of them are absolutely free, and one of them, Plan B, can even be taken by your hungover *** the day AFTER you wake up wearing someone's HS football tshirt, or whatever method you were using failed. No prescription needed.

In this day and age, we should have very few abortions every year--only those cases where the health of the mother is truly at risk.

I'm also the mother of a perfectly healthy, beautiful 6 year old I was advised to abort at 18 weeks, because ALL my tests were coming back off or bad. Guess what, there's still SO much modern medicine doesn't know about baby-having. I wonder how many abortions every year are a result of that kind of advice.

If you want to be sexually active, knock yourself out. Just take precautions. Unwanted pregnancy is really not something that is all that difficult to avoid.

I agree with this. I think in 99% of the situations out there where the health of the baby/mother aren't involved there won't be abortions and should NOT be abortions. I think the only other time that abortion should be considered is probably if the woman has no family structure and little to no money. I can maybe understand that type of situation. But that's really rare. I don't even know if cases are rape or pregnancy at a young age are good for abortion, if the mother has the family support around her.

[sooner59]

I agree with this. I think in 99% of the situations out there where the health of the baby/mother aren't involved there won't be abortions and should NOT be abortions. I think the only other time that abortion should be considered is probably if the woman has no family structure and little to no money. I can maybe understand that type of situation. But that's really rare. I don't even know if cases are rape or pregnancy at a young age are good for abortion, if the mother has the family support around her.

I agree with Sunny, and basically everything you said except that in bold. But that is just my personal opinion. I will never tell a rape victim they have to mother the child of some evil scumbag like that. If they want to keep it, fine. I would rather they just have it and let a family adopt it if she absolutely didn't want it. But I couldn't image how it would feel. I have heard of some cases where rape victim's became pregnant and they couldn't handle it and committed suicide, killing themselves and the kid. Rape is a tough situation. But, like I said, that is just my opinion. I am sure lots of people disagree...and that's fine, too.

[olevetonahill]

It ****ing gets old. Everyone preaches how they want the government to get out of peoples lives, until it comes to telling them what they should do with their bodies and that they must have babies.

Bingo.
Im against Abortion , I aint Pregnant Nor will I get anyone else Pregnant. I aint got a dog in this fight .

[oumartin]

It's f@cking murder. If I kill your mom or wife I should be hung. If you kill a baby or have any part in it you should be treated as a killer.

[87sooner]

It has nothing to do with being a Christian. The bible makes no mention of eliminating an embryo in the first trimester. Besides, the bible or Christianity should not have a frigging thing to do with the laws of our land. We are not a theocracy. Several supreme court decisions have upheld Roe v. Wade, and future supreme courts will continue to.

opposing abortion has EVERYTHING to do with being a christian.....yet you don't.....

but of course you're right....laws are supposed to be about our constitution....
but this one isn't...it's about some fantasy link between a right to privacy...
but i don't remember....was it a unanimous decision?


we're not a theocracy? no sh!T?

[soonercruiser]

Just because that is your opinion it doesn't mean it has to be his. He was raised by his own set of parents. Roe v. Wade is the law of the land. It will be the law of the land 50 years from now. It is a woman's right to choose, and during the first trimester, it will continue to be the law of the land.

Perhaps you should worry more about providing food, clothing and housing to the thousands of unwanted kids, who are born each day in this country rather than the discarded embryos of a first trimester.

Sure! They are "unwanted" by parents who were neglegent in the "beginning".....so just KILL THEM!
:rolleyes:

You'd think we were talking about chickens.

[soonercruiser]

The most helpless human beings? That's where we differ. You think it's a human being, I don't. Also what about the 2 million+ homeless living in our country? Let's STOP WASTING TAX DOLLARS ON ISSUES THAT WERE DECIDED 38 YEARS AGO. You don't have to agree with it, but you should respect it. Besides shouldn't you and your kind be focusing all your collective strength on impeaching the President for whatever issue you have now? Or maybe you could organize a protest about the Healthcare bill. Because guess what, the Supreme Court (yeah the one that decided Roe V. Wade in 1973) will inevitably be deciding at least one of those (Healthcare), possibly the other if the stupid AZ bill passes.

Maybe college graduates who can't find a job should be euthanized? That's the most ignorant statement you've made yet, regardless if you are trying to be funny. For the simple reason that you think you'll be able to collect a social security check if you kill us all off?

Leave out the "B", and this is a hick opinion....uninformed.
If you knoew about the actual ruling, the SCOTUS had no problem with the idea that a life begings at conception.
*There ruling had to do with the Constitutional definition of "person". (Kinda like the opposite of slavery vs. definition of a whole person. WE have been through this before.)

[87sooner]

The "kid" need some perspective? I have a perspective and it isn't going to change because someone as ignorant as you tells me too. But hey that's your opinion, you know the one you're entitled too? Just like I'm entitled to my own opinion (which is more relevant than a single issue that was decided 38 years ago). Also did you know that we have a thing is this country called separation of Church and State? You know, check your religious affiliation and views at the door when deciding issues that affect millions? Could you do it? I know I could, even though I'm just a "kid who needs some perspective on what's important in life."

church has nothing to do with it...
the constitution and science were both ignored as well...
hope you find a job before the courts decide you're too useless to waste food/water on...

[Thaumaturge]

It's f@cking murder. If I kill your mom or wife I should be hung. If you kill a baby or have any part in it you should be treated as a killer.

If you killed my mom or wife, I would certainly write my congressman. Maybe I'd even argue about it on an internet message board...

Because that would be murder and I am adamantly opposed to murder.

[Blue]

If you killed my mom or wife, I would certainly write my congressman. Maybe I'd even argue about it on an internet message board...

Because that would be murder and I am adamantly opposed to murder.

I see your point, but what really can you do?

[C&CDean]

Oh fer ****'s sake, we're still having these discussions?

You kill, you die. It's simply that simple. Go ahead, kill the zygote/cell/unformed embryo/non-viable fetus/whatever the **** you wish to call a little bundle of joy and it's all groovy. Why? Cause you kept yourself from having to deal with it. You kept your bank account/job/career on the even keel. Meh. **** you. You killed a baby. How the **** does that feel?

Trust me, I know, and it don't feel very ****ing good.

Carry on.

[Thaumaturge]

I see your point, but what really can you do?

I don't know. What would you do if there were killing factories all over the country systematically killing your fellow citizens by the millions, all with the consent and/or approval of the government?

Personally, I'd demagogue the issue. Also, I might yell and curse at people who supported the legality of killing factories... you know, to demonstrate my moral superiority over them. I'd support political candidates who advocated working towards someday putting some marginal restrictions on just whom could be killed at the killing factories (In 10 years, maybe we could get a 5 or 10% reduction! Wouldn't that be a great victory!).

Yes, I'd do all of that and more, because I would be sincere in my killing factory opposition.

[Radar's Left Hand]

The most helpless human beings? That's where we differ. You think it's a human being, I don't. Also what about the 2 million+ homeless living in our country? Let's STOP WASTING TAX DOLLARS ON ISSUES THAT WERE DECIDED 38 YEARS AGO. You don't have to agree with it, but you should respect it. Besides shouldn't you and your kind be focusing all your collective strength on impeaching the President for whatever issue you have now? Or maybe you could organize a protest about the Healthcare bill. Because guess what, the Supreme Court (yeah the one that decided Roe V. Wade in 1973) will inevitably be deciding at least one of those (Healthcare), possibly the other if the stupid AZ bill passes.

Maybe college graduates who can't find a job should be euthanized? That's the most ignorant statement you've made yet, regardless if you are trying to be funny. For the simple reason that you think you'll be able to collect a social security check if you kill us all off?


What are your thoughts on gay marriage? That was determined a long time ago.

[AlboSooner]

Neither do I. If it's true that millions of human babies are being systematically slaughtered in this country, you wouldn't know it from the behavior of the people who oppose it. The very, very few who act with the sort of urgency that that reality would demand are recognized by society, I think rightly, for the violent radicals and terrorists that they are.

It's difficult to know if you are serious or just simply stirring the metaphorical pot. Regardless, I humbly tell you that your post raises a false dilemma, because you confine "doing something" into the narrow and intolerant den of your worldview.


Unfortunately for all of us millions of human lives, are treated with nonchalance everyday - not just fetus/embryo/baby/whatevers.

You are re-defining the issue here. You are basically saying that because we are treated nonchalantly (which is not true since a born person has many more rights than the unborn), then it's OK to treat the unborn nonchalantly.

For the sake of reason, let's stop a second a reconsider the irrationalities we're spewing here.

[Thaumaturge]

It's difficult to know if you are serious or just simply stirring the metaphorical pot. Regardless, I humbly tell you that your post raises a false dilemma, because you confine "doing something" into the narrow and intolerant den of your worldview.


Well okay, if that's how you want to play it. Let's just pray that, if and when the government really does start up the murder factories, there are enough narrow and intolerant den-mates to stop them.

(I am, of course, neglecting pacifists. I do this because I'm pretty sure the official stance here is that pacifists are pussies.)

[C&CDean]

No, pacifists are not pussies. They're just demented little people who haven't got a clue what it takes to maintain freedom.

[AlboSooner]

Well okay, if that's how you want to play it.
I'm not playing games here and I am not interested in winning anything.

I'm just saying if one looks at abortion scientifically, morally, or philosophically, abortion is wrong and a despicable act. A human life is not the same as your toe. The choice to allow a human life to develop and live it's not the same as the choice to paint your toe-nails red.

I'm done here as it seems futile to continue.

[delhalew]

I'm going to need a few of you to form a line. When it's your turn, I will used surgical scissors to make an incision at the base of your skull. Then I will vacuum out your brains with a tube. Nothing personal. You simply aren't wanted. We don't have time for you.

[MR2-Sooner86]

I'm going to need a few of you to form a line. When it's your turn, I will used surgical scissors to make an incision at the base of your skull. Then I will vacuum out your brains with a tube. Nothing personal. You simply aren't wanted. We don't have time for you.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.bvblackspin.com/media/2010/10/the-view.jpg

[sooner59]

MR2 is making a compelling argument for pro-choice there. :D

[Blue]

I don't know. What would you do if there were killing factories all over the country systematically killing your fellow citizens by the millions, all with the consent and/or approval of the government?

Personally, I'd demagogue the issue. Also, I might yell and curse at people who supported the legality of killing factories... you know, to demonstrate my moral superiority over them. I'd support political candidates who advocated working towards someday putting some marginal restrictions on just whom could be killed at the killing factories (In 10 years, maybe we could get a 5 or 10% reduction! Wouldn't that be a great victory!).

Yes, I'd do all of that and more, because I would be sincere in my killing factory opposition.

You are still being sarcastic and aloof. What is your opinion, or would you just like to continue and demean others?

[pphilfran]

You are still being sarcastic and aloof. What is your opinion, or would you just like to continue and demean others?

Thaum goes by the beat of a different drummer...

[pphilfran]

I am a fence rider...I go with the current law...though I would lean pro life if I had the druthers...

There are terrible ramifications on either side...

For the pro choicers...at what point does the embryo turn into a human....269 days? 200? 100? You better be damn sure of the exact date...at 22 weeks there is some chance of survivability...

For the pro lifers....up to some point shouldn't the female have the ability to control her own body?

[87sooner]

I am a fence rider...I go with the current law...though I would lean pro life if I had the druthers...

There are terrible ramifications on either side...

For the pro choicers...at what point does the embryo turn into a human....269 days? 200? 100? You better be damn sure of the exact date...at 22 weeks there is some chance of survivability...

For the pro lifers....up to some point shouldn't the female have the ability to control her own body?

yes...she should be able to control herself up to conception....
especially if she didn't want to get pregnant

[pphilfran]

yes...she should be able to control herself up to conception....
especially if she didn't want to get pregnant

I understand...

How about the day after pill?

[Curly Bill]

I don't think states or feds should have anything to do with abortion. It should be 100% up to the individual(s) involved.

On most issues I'm about as conservative as they come...

...but this is the right answer.

[Thaumaturge]

I'm not playing games here and I am not interested in winning anything.

I'm just saying if one looks at abortion scientifically, morally, or philosophically, abortion is wrong and a despicable act. A human life is not the same as your toe. The choice to allow a human life to develop and live it's not the same as the choice to paint your toe-nails red.

I'm done here as it seems futile to continue.

The words of a pacifist. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


You are still being sarcastic and aloof. What is your opinion, or would you just like to continue and demean others?

The point is that those who act like the issue is cut and dry with no gray area and who say that abortion is simply murder and that pro-choice people are condoning murder are being insincere. Their insincerity is betrayed by their weak, impotent actions that would clearly be ridiculous (again, assuming they're not pacifists) if placed in the context of a society with actual legal, systematic murder. Therefore, my suggestion is that they ought to adjust their tone to reflect the tentativeness of their true feelings; for example, they ought to stop stridently calling people murderers and accessories to murder. It doesn't really show moral superiority like they think it does.

[AlboSooner]

OM9jhGiIAFM

[HBick]

church has nothing to do with it...
the constitution and science were both ignored as well...
hope you find a job before the courts decide you're too useless to waste food/water on...

:pop: this all ya got?

[soonercruiser]

yes...she should be able to control herself up to conception....
especially if she didn't want to get pregnant

Agree! It's just another example of where the LW holds no one accountable, except conservatives.
:rolleyes:

[Thaumaturge]

OM9jhGiIAFM

See? How hard is that? That's the gravity the situation demands.

[Radar's Left Hand]

:pop: this all ya got?


I noticed you ducked out on the question of Gay Marriage. What do you think, should that old law be changed?

[HBick]

I noticed you ducked out on the question of Gay Marriage. What do you think, should that old law be changed?

Sorry I'm bumping this so late, I just now saw this, been traveling quite a bit the last 2 weeks and I'm cheap so I won't pay for internet access in a hotel.

I have no problem with Gay Marriage (side question, why are you capitalizing it?). Now when you say marriage, do you mean a traditional marriage in a church? I think that would be directly up to the church would it not? Besides no church in Oklahoma would ever take part in that. But as for civil unions, I think that if you are gay, and want to spend your life with someone, you should be able to have the same privileges that a marriage between a man and woman allow.

The way I see it, people are either straight or gay. If they are gay, it doesn't bother or affect me.

[Radar's Left Hand]

Sorry I'm bumping this so late, I just now saw this, been traveling quite a bit the last 2 weeks and I'm cheap so I won't pay for internet access in a hotel.

I have no problem with Gay Marriage (side question, why are you capitalizing it?). Now when you say marriage, do you mean a traditional marriage in a church? I think that would be directly up to the church would it not? Besides no church in Oklahoma would ever take part in that. But as for civil unions, I think that if you are gay, and want to spend your life with someone, you should be able to have the same privileges that a marriage between a man and woman allow.

The way I see it, people are either straight or gay. If they are gay, it doesn't bother or affect me.

Because I'm talking about the issue of "Gay Marriage". Why would you want to legalize Gay Marriage but not make Abortions illegal, when both have been on the books a long time? I'm confused by your "logic". The apply a standard to one and not the other.

[The Profit]

Because I'm talking about the issue of "Gay Marriage". Why would you want to legalize Gay Marriage but not make Abortions illegal, when both have been on the books a long time? I'm confused by your "logic". The apply a standard to one and not the other.




It is simple...Making abortion illegal removes the rights of a woman (to decided what to do with her own body). Making gay marriage legal actually gives rights to people.

[Harry Beanbag]

It is simple...Making abortion illegal removes the rights of a woman (to decided what to do with her own body). Making gay marriage legal actually gives rights to people.

Lamest argument made by the pro-killers. Making abortion illegal actually removes the right of a woman to decide to end the life of another human being. The fetus is not her body, it is somebody elses.

[bigfatjerk]

It is simple...Making abortion illegal removes the rights of a woman (to decided what to do with her own body). Making gay marriage legal actually gives rights to people.

Why is government even in the business for marriage and abortion for that matter? I think both of these issues would be better off if states and more importantly individuals figured them out. I think the best way to solve the gay marriage issue is to make it completely up to churches. If a church doesn't want to allow gay marriage fine. But I'm sure 1 church will allow it somewhere.

[bigfatjerk]

Lamest argument made by the pro-killers. Making abortion illegal actually removes the right of a woman to decide to end the life of another human being. The fetus is not her body, it is somebody elses.
And if you put it up to the woman and her family 99% of the time they probably won't abort. There's only a few extreme situations where the woman does think about it. That's why I think most of it is just a waste of funding by the government.

[Position Limit]

Lamest argument made by the pro-killers. Making abortion illegal actually removes the right of a woman to decide to end the life of another human being. The fetus is not her body, it is somebody elses.

after reading a comment like this, i'm convinced the pro killers have it right. in fact abortions need to be much easier to obtain and alot more of them... yes clown, darwinism needs to be put in full effect in your case.

[Harry Beanbag]

And if you put it up to the woman and her family 99% of the time they probably won't abort. There's only a few extreme situations where the woman does think about it. That's why I think most of it is just a waste of funding by the government.


Well, yeah. Government funding shouldn't be anywhere involved in it.

[The Profit]

Well, yeah. Government funding shouldn't be anywhere involved in it.



I agree completely. There should be no government funding of the procedure itself. The government has no business being involved one way or the other in what a woman does with her body, nor should it be concerned over two gays getting hitched in a civil union.

[bigfatjerk]

I agree completely. There should be no government funding of the procedure itself. The government has no business being involved one way or the other in what a woman does with her body, nor should it be concerned over two gays getting hitched in a civil union.

Then we agree on something here. I do think gay marriage is going to be hard no matter what because many churches just won't allow it because it says in the Bible homosexuality is illegal. But that should still be up to the church to really allow it in the end.

[87sooner]

Why is government even in the business for marriage and abortion for that matter? I think both of these issues would be better off if states and more importantly individuals figured them out. I think the best way to solve the gay marriage issue is to make it completely up to churches. If a church doesn't want to allow gay marriage fine. But I'm sure 1 church will allow it somewhere.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

[The Profit]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.




Yeah, that was written for people that have been born and not for first trimester embryos. In fact, it was really written for white folks that were already born.

[Position Limit]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

i just love it when people take a piece of the consitution and interpret it as they see fit. it's almost as laughable as christians quoting "scripture" and how it applies to reality.

strange how the supreme court missed your interpretation.

[Harry Beanbag]

after reading a comment like this, i'm convinced the pro killers have it right. in fact abortions need to be much easier to obtain and alot more of them... yes clown, darwinism needs to be put in full effect in your case.


Awesome debate tactic dude/dudette. Somebody doesn't agree with you so call them a clown and suggest they should die. :D

[87sooner]

i just love it when people take a piece of the consitution and interpret it as they see fit.


you mean people like dumbass sc justices that somehow interpret/conclude that killing a child in the womb = right to privacy?




strange how the supreme court missed your interpretation.

so it was a unanimous decision? i can't seem to recall....

[Position Limit]

you mean people like dumbass sc justices that somehow interpret/conclude that killing a child in the womb = right to privacy?




so it was a unanimous decision? i can't seem to recall....

come on dude, it was just a dumb thing to write. i'm sure the dissenters of roe v. wade didnt look at the preamble or whatever part of the constitution you quoted and said,"look and see. it's written right there". save the interpretations for the people who know what they're doing.

[87sooner]

i like this approach....


RICHMOND, Va. (AP) - Virginia took a big step Thursday toward eliminating most of the state's 21 abortion clinics, approving a bill that would likely make rules so strict the medical centers would be forced to close, Democrats and abortion rights supporters said.

Gov. Bob McDonnell, a Republican and Catholic, supports the measure and when he signs it into law, Virginia will become the first state to require clinics that provide first-trimester abortions to meet the same standards as hospitals. The requirements could include anything from expensive structural changes like widening hallways to increased training and mandatory equipment the clinics currently don't have.

While abortion providers must be licensed in Virginia, the clinics resemble dentists' offices and are considered physicians offices, similar to those that provide plastic and corrective eye surgeries, colonoscopies and a host of other medical procedures.

Democrats and abortion rights supporters said the change would put an estimated 17 of the state's 21 clinics out of business. Most of the clinics also provide birth control, cancer screenings and other women's health services.

"This is not about safety for women. This is about ideology, and this is about politics," said Tarina Keene, executive director of NARAL Pro-Choice Virginia. "The women of the commonwealth are going to be the ones left to suffer."

Abortion rights supporters warned of legal challenges while supporters heralded it as a way to make the procedures safer.

"It is not about banning abortions," said Sen. Jill Vogel, R-Winchester. "It is simply caring for women who are about to have an invasive surgical procedure and creating an environment for them where they have the opportunity to do that in a place that is safe."

No other state requires clinics that provide early abortions to meet hospital standards.

Nineteen states, including Virginia, require an abortion to be performed in a hospital after 12 weeks, according to the Guttmacher Institute, which tracks abortions and laws concerning the procedures.

More than 27,000 of the 28,000 abortions performed each year in Virginia are completed during the first-trimester, Keene said.

"Does Virginia really want to take the lead in such obstruction?" asked Sen. Maime Locke, D-Hampton, who called the bill "draconian and patriarchal at best."

Democrats argued it wouldn't pass constitutional muster because it would put an undue burden on poor women and those in rural areas, where clinics likely would close. They also argued it would violate the equal protection guarantees of the Constitution by treating abortions differently than similar procedures.

"Absolutely all that will be accomplished by this vote is to restrict access to a safe and legal procedure to poor women," said Sen. Mary Margaret Whipple, D-Arlington. "This does nothing to end abortions. It is purely discriminatory. It makes me heartsick."

Laurence H. Tribe, professor of constitutional law at Harvard Law School, said the bill would likely be deemed unconstitutional "because its transparent purpose and effect would be to make such early abortions far more difficult if not impossible for many women to obtain."

Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli, who supported similar legislation as a state senator, said he believes the law would be constitutional.

"For over 25 years, Virginia abortion clinics have not been held to minimal health and safety standards," he said. "As a result, women who walk into these clinics are often not treated with the care and respect that any human being deserves."

Anti-abortion bills typically die in a Democrat-controlled Senate committee, but Republicans in the House tacked it onto a bill that already had passed the Senate. Doing so allowed the bill to sidestep the committee and forced a vote on the Senate floor, where Democrats hold a 22-18 majority.

Two anti-abortion Democrats voted with Republicans, and Lt. Gov. Bill Bolling, a Republican, cast the tie-breaking vote after hours of debate.

After it becomes law in July, the state Board of Health will take public comments before issuing the guidelines. The board is appointed by the governor.

[The Profit]

The Virginia law is unconstitutional. It will go to the same trash bin, where other radical bills have gone, including several from okiedokieville.

[picasso]

It is simple...Making abortion illegal removes the rights of a woman (to decided what to do with her own body).

Kinda like nationalized health care. Only it takes away rights for more than just reproductive organs.

[The Profit]

Kinda like nationalized health care. Only it takes away rights for more than just reproductive organs.




Kinda, but not exactly. Obama Care is a far cry from nationalized health care. I wish we had real nationalized healthcare like the Germans and French have, but that isn't gonna happen.

[I Am Right]

Life vs Death

[Position Limit]

you're going to like any approach that might give you the outcome you desire.

now im no legal expert, but has there been a spate of health related issues as a result of women in virginia using these clinics? and if so, could'nt there just maybe a legal claim against them? since a group of high and mighty republicans are behind another retarded abortion bill my guess is that there have not been any health related issues. i thought you republicans were for less gov. instrusion? what?

[picasso]

Kinda, but not exactly. Obama Care is a far cry from nationalized health care. I wish we had real nationalized healthcare like the Germans and French have, but that isn't gonna happen.

How do you know exactly? Did you read the entire manifesto?

Have you ever been a patient in a nationalized health type of deal? I have with the Pawnee Benefit package amongst others.
You don't choose your doctor and you have to wait on approval from a committee on big type dealings.
It's a hoot.

Kind of like being told what you can and can't do with your body.

[The Profit]

How do you know exactly? Did you read the entire manifesto?

Have you ever been a patient in a nationalized health type of deal? I have with the Pawnee Benefit package amongst others.
You don't choose your doctor and you have to wait on approval from a committee on big type dealings.
It's a hoot.

Kind of like being told what you can and can't do with your body.




I see your point. Obama Care is really more like forced insurance than it is national healthcare. I would like to take the greedy and slimy insurance companies out of the mix. We rank somewhere around 32nd in the world in healthcare. I believe we can do better. I still would not want federal funds used to pay for abortions, though.

[87sooner]

The Virginia law is unconstitutional. It will go to the same trash bin, where other radical bills have gone, including several from okiedokieville.


unconstitutional?
how is a law requiring abortion clinics to maintain the same standards as hospitals unconstitutional?

[Sooner_Bob]

How do you know exactly? Did you read the entire manifesto?

Have you ever been a patient in a nationalized health type of deal? I have with the Pawnee Benefit package amongst others.
You don't choose your doctor and you have to wait on approval from a committee on big type dealings.
It's a hoot.

Kind of like being told what you can and can't do with your body.

It's getting even worse now . . . all across IHS.

[picasso]

I see your point. Obama Care is really more like forced insurance than it is national healthcare. I would like to take the greedy and slimy insurance companies out of the mix. We rank somewhere around 32nd in the world in healthcare. I believe we can do better. I still would not want federal funds used to pay for abortions, though.

32nd in what exactly? Is that why people with money come here for care?

Aren't we kind of innovative in research and such? Can you name me 31 other countries where you would rather be taken care of at?

[The Profit]

32nd in what exactly? Is that why people with money come here for care?

Aren't we kind of innovative in research and such? Can you name me 31 other countries where you would rather be taken care of at?




I think we are near the top in innovation, although I think the French and Germans are ahead of us, but we are 32nd or worse in terms of availability.

[bigfatjerk]

I see your point. Obama Care is really more like forced insurance than it is national healthcare. I would like to take the greedy and slimy insurance companies out of the mix. We rank somewhere around 32nd in the world in healthcare. I believe we can do better. I still would not want federal funds used to pay for abortions, though.

We shouldn't subsidize much of any health care. It would be a lot cheaper if we just treated health care like a product instead of a government ran institution.

[The Profit]

We shouldn't subsidize much of any health care. It would be a lot cheaper if we just treated health care like a product instead of a government ran institution.




I understand where you are coming from. I just believe healthcare should be a right and not a privilege.

[bigfatjerk]

Why? What makes health care different from other things that are products and rights and not privileges? I think this attitude is why the housing industry went bust. Some idiot politicians thought it would be better if we treated giving away houses like a right and in the end they couldn't afford it. I understand having systems that are safety nets for the poor. But having people basically live off the government ends up being impossible for a government to really afford. That's basically the problem with our entire system right now. The government can't afford paying for 300 million people or even 200 or 100 for that matter.

[MR2-Sooner86]

This thread is...

http://www.outfrontcolorado.com/img/blog/coat%20hanger%20project%20logo.jpg

[sooner59]

This is what sucks about the whole deal. I would say most people would like to see everyone get care some how some way and not be left for dead because they are poor. However the reality is that the government can't handle that kind of a load, whereas a place like Switzerland can. We have too many people and the care is too expensive. We will drive our economy into the ground by assuming debt. Its hard to come up with a perfect solution. I for one wish everyone could get the care they need, but a nationalized healthcare plan isn't going to improve the situation.

And yes, the U.S. is ranked much lower in total healthcare than most think. I'll try to find the numbers later when I have time, but for as much as we spend on healthcare, we aren't efficiently getting it done. And yes rich folks come from all over to get care here, because we have some of the best physicians/treatments available, and they can hand pick who they want. The problem is that those physicians/treatments aren't widespread and easily available.

[47straight]

i just love it when people take a piece of the consitution and interpret it as they see fit. it's almost as laughable as christians quoting "scripture" and how it applies to reality.

strange how the supreme court missed your interpretation.

Is it as laughable as people who don't know the constitution from the declaration of independence?

[HBick]

This is what sucks about the whole deal. I would say most people would like to see everyone get care some how some way and not be left for dead because they are poor. However the reality is that the government can't handle that kind of a load, whereas a place like Switzerland can. We have too many people and the care is too expensive. We will drive our economy into the ground by assuming debt. Its hard to come up with a perfect solution. I for one with everyone could get the care they they, but a nationalized healthcare plan isn't going to improve the situation.

And yes, the U.S. is ranked much lower in total healthcare than most think. I'll try to find the numbers later when I have time, but for as much as we spend on healthcare, we aren't efficiently getting it done. And yes rich folks come from all over to get care here, because we have some of the best physicians/treatments available, and they can hand pick who they want. The problem is that those physicians/treatments aren't widespread and easily available.

I think you are exactly right that people don't want to see others die because they are poor, or the typical example we see all too often of a family being denied coverage for their child with cancer. It's awful, and shouldn't happen. But the Gov't can't afford to pay it, so who does that leave?

[My Opinion Matters]

Serious question--if abortion is outlawed who is going to care/pay for millions of unwanted babies?

No, seriously.

[sooner59]

Well if abortion ever becomes totally illegal, then that is a matter that will have to be addressed.

[sooner59]

This is what sucks about the whole deal. I would say most people would like to see everyone get care some how some way and not be left for dead because they are poor. However the reality is that the government can't handle that kind of a load, whereas a place like Switzerland can. We have too many people and the care is too expensive. We will drive our economy into the ground by assuming debt. Its hard to come up with a perfect solution. I for one wish everyone could get the care they need, but a nationalized healthcare plan isn't going to improve the situation.

And yes, the U.S. is ranked much lower in total healthcare than most think. I'll try to find the numbers later when I have time, but for as much as we spend on healthcare, we aren't efficiently getting it done. And yes rich folks come from all over to get care here, because we have some of the best physicians/treatments available, and they can hand pick who they want. The problem is that those physicians/treatments aren't widespread and easily available.

This is a decent website to browse through all the details. Here is a small portion. There are more recent updates, but the site is full of details for those who want to dig in.

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/


World Health Organization Assesses the World's Health Systems

World Health Organization Assesses the World's Health Systems

The World Health Organization has carried out the first ever analysis of the world's health systems. Using five performance indicators to measure health systems in 191 member states, it finds that France provides the best overall health care followed among major countries by Italy, Spain, Oman, Austria and Japan.

The findings are published today, 21 June, in The World Health Report 2000 – Health systems: Improving performance*.

*Copies of the Report can be ordered from [email protected].

The U.S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on health services, ranks 18 th . Several small countries – San Marino, Andorra, Malta and Singapore are rated close behind second- placed Italy.

WHO Director-General Dr Gro Harlem Brundtland says: "The main message from this report is that the health and well- being of people around the world depend critically on the performance of the health systems that serve them. Yet there is wide variation in performance, even among countries with similar levels of income and health expenditure. It is essential for decision- makers to understand the underlying reasons so that system performance, and hence the health of populations, can be improved."

Dr Christopher Murray, Director of WHO's Global Programme on Evidence for Health Policy. says: "Although significant progress has been achieved in past decades, virtually all countries are under- utilizing the resources that are available to them. This leads to large numbers of preventable deaths and disabilities; unnecessary suffering, injustice, inequality and denial of an individual's basic rights to health."

The impact of failures in health systems is most severe on the poor everywhere, who are driven deeper into poverty by lack of financial protection against ill- health, the report says.

"The poor are treated with less respect, given less choice of service providers and offered lower- quality amenities," says Dr Brundtland. "In trying to buy health from their own pockets, they pay and become poorer."

[87sooner]

come on dude, it was just a dumb thing to write. i'm sure the dissenters of roe v. wade didnt look at the preamble or whatever part of the constitution you quoted and said,"look and see. it's written right there". save the interpretations for the people who know what they're doing.

the constitution says nothing specific about the unborn...
therefore it should be left up to the states...
and if that were to happen....i have no doubt most states would ban it...

[The Profit]

the constitution says nothing specific about the unborn...
therefore it should be left up to the states...
and if that were to happen....i have no doubt most states would ban it...




It isn't going to happen. Roe v. Wade is the law of the land and it will be the law of the land for another 50 years at least.