Reagan's 100th B-Day

[soonercoop1]

You can say what you want about him but you always knew he loved this country and wouldn't take sh!t from anyone...:)

[stoopified]

True dat

[AlboSooner]

His place in history as amongst the greats is unquestionable.



Ps: I find a little odd to celebrate the birthday of a dead person. It's like celebrating the good health of somebody who is terminally and painfully sick.

[Soonerson1975]

How long did it take for them to bury him after he died? Seems like they left him out for almost a month before they buried him.

[GKeeper316]

uJDhS4oUm0M

[uncle mo]

On Sunday, America celebrates the 100th birthday of Ronald Reagan, whose presidency is a touchstone for the modern conservative movement. In 2011, it is virtually impossible for a major Republican politician to succeed without citing Reagan as a role model. But much of what today's voters think they know about the 40th president is more myth than reality, misconceptions resulting from the passage of time or from calculated attempts to rebuild or remake Reagan's legacy. So, what are we getting wrong about the Gipper?

1. Reagan was one of our most popular presidents.

It's true that Reagan is popular more than two decades after leaving office. A CNN/Opinion Research poll last month gave him the third-highest approval rating among presidents of the past 50 years, behind John F. Kennedy and Bill Clinton. But Reagan's average approval rating during the eight years that he was in office was nothing spectacular - 52.8 percent, according to Gallup. That places the 40th president not just behind Kennedy, Clinton and Dwight Eisenhower, but also Lyndon Johnson and George H.W. Bush, neither of whom are talked up as candidates for Mount Rushmore.

During his presidency, Reagan's popularity had high peaks - after the attempt on his life in 1981, for example - and huge valleys. In 1982, as the national unemployment rate spiked above 10 percent, Reagan's approval rating fell to 35 percent. At the height of the Iran-Contra scandal, nearly one-third of Americans wanted him to resign.

In the early 1990s, shortly after Reagan left office, several polls found even the much-maligned Jimmy Carter to be more popular. Only since Reagan's 1994 disclosure that he had Alzheimer's disease - along with lobbying efforts by conservatives, such as Grover Norquist's Ronald Reagan Legacy Project, which pushed to rename Washington's National Airport for the president - has his popularity steadily climbed.

2. Reagan was a tax-cutter.

Certainly, Reagan's boldest move as president was his 1981 tax cut, a sweeping measure that slashed the marginal rate on the wealthiest Americans from 70 percent to 50 percent. The legislation also included smaller cuts in lower tax brackets, as well as big breaks for corporations and the oil industry. But the following year, as the economy was mired in recession and the federal deficit was spiraling out of control, even groups such as the Business Roundtable lobbied Reagan to raise taxes. And he did: The Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 was, at the time, the largest peacetime tax increase in U.S. history.

Ultimately, Reagan signed measures that increased federal taxes every year of his two-term presidency except the first and the last. These included a higher gasoline levy, a 1986 tax reform deal that included the largest corporate tax increase in American history, and a substantial raise in payroll taxes in 1983 as part of a deal to keep Social Security solvent. While wealthy Americans benefitted from Reagan's tax policies, blue-collar Americans paid a higher percentage of their income in taxes when Reagan left office than when he came in.

3. Reagan was a hawk.

Long before he was elected president, Reagan predicted that the Soviet Union would collapse because of communism's inherent corruption and inefficiency. His forecast proved accurate, but it is not clear that his military buildup moved the process forward. Though Reagan expanded the U.S. military and launched new weapons programs, his real contributions to the end of the Cold War were his willingness to negotiate arms reductions with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev and his encouragement of Gorbachev as a domestic reformer. Indeed, a USA Today poll taken four days after the fall of the Berlin Wall found that 43 percent of Americans credited Gorbachev, while only 14 percent cited Reagan.

With the exception of the 1986 bombing of Libya, Reagan also disappointed hawkish aides with his unwillingness to retaliate militarily for terrorism in the Middle East. According to biographer Lou Cannon, the president called the death of innocent civilians in anti-terror operations "terrorism itself."

In 1987, Reagan aide Paul Bremer, later George W. Bush's point man in Baghdad, even argued that terrorism suspects should be tried in civilian courts. "A major element of our strategy has been to delegitimize terrorists, to get society to see them for what they are - criminals - and to use democracy's most potent tool, the rule of law, against them," Bremer said. In 1988, Reagan signed the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which stated that torture could be used under "no exceptional circumstances, whatsoever."

4. Reagan shrank the federal government.

Reagan famously declared at his 1981 inauguration that "in the present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." This rhetorical flourish didn't stop the 40th president from increasing the federal government's size by every possible measure during his eight years in office.

Federal spending grew by an average of 2.5 percent a year, adjusted for inflation, while Reagan was president. The national debt exploded, increasing from about $700 billion to nearly $3 trillion. Many experts believe that Reagan's massive deficits not only worsened the recession of the early 1990s but doomed his successor, George H.W. Bush, to a one-term presidency by forcing him to abandon his "no new taxes" pledge.

The number of federal employees grew from 2.8 million to 3 million under Reagan, in large part because of his buildup at the Pentagon. (It took the Democratic administration of President Bill Clinton to trim the employee rolls back to 2.7 million.) Reagan also abandoned a campaign pledge to get rid of two Cabinet agencies - Energy and Education - and added a new one, Veterans Affairs.

5. Reagan was a conservative culture warrior.

Reagan's contributions to the culture wars of the 1980s were largely rhetorical and symbolic. Although he published a book in 1983 about his staunch opposition to abortion (overlooking the fact that he had legalized abortion in California as governor in the late 1960s), he never sought a constitutional ban on abortion. In fact, Reagan began the odd practice of speaking to anti-abortion rallies by phone instead of in person - a custom continued by subsequent Republican presidents. He also advocated prayer in public schools in speeches, but never in legislation.

In 1981, Reagan unintentionally did more than any other president to prevent the Roe v. Wade abortion ruling from being overturned when he appointed Sandra Day O'Connor to the Supreme Court. O'Connor mostly upheld abortion rights during her 25 years as a justice.

No wonder that home-schooling advocate Michael Ferris was one of many right-wing activists complaining about Reagan by the end of his presidency, writing that his White House "offered us a bunch of political trinkets."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/04/AR2011020403104_pf.html

[soonercoop1]

On Sunday, America celebrates the 100th birthday of Ronald Reagan, whose presidency is a touchstone for the modern conservative movement. In 2011, it is virtually impossible for a major Republican politician to succeed without citing Reagan as a role model. But much of what today's voters think they know about the 40th president is more myth than reality, misconceptions resulting from the passage of time or from calculated attempts to rebuild or remake Reagan's legacy. So, what are we getting wrong about the Gipper?

1. Reagan was one of our most popular presidents.

It's true that Reagan is popular more than two decades after leaving office. A CNN/Opinion Research poll last month gave him the third-highest approval rating among presidents of the past 50 years, behind John F. Kennedy and Bill Clinton. But Reagan's average approval rating during the eight years that he was in office was nothing spectacular - 52.8 percent, according to Gallup. That places the 40th president not just behind Kennedy, Clinton and Dwight Eisenhower, but also Lyndon Johnson and George H.W. Bush, neither of whom are talked up as candidates for Mount Rushmore.

During his presidency, Reagan's popularity had high peaks - after the attempt on his life in 1981, for example - and huge valleys. In 1982, as the national unemployment rate spiked above 10 percent, Reagan's approval rating fell to 35 percent. At the height of the Iran-Contra scandal, nearly one-third of Americans wanted him to resign.

In the early 1990s, shortly after Reagan left office, several polls found even the much-maligned Jimmy Carter to be more popular. Only since Reagan's 1994 disclosure that he had Alzheimer's disease - along with lobbying efforts by conservatives, such as Grover Norquist's Ronald Reagan Legacy Project, which pushed to rename Washington's National Airport for the president - has his popularity steadily climbed.

2. Reagan was a tax-cutter.

Certainly, Reagan's boldest move as president was his 1981 tax cut, a sweeping measure that slashed the marginal rate on the wealthiest Americans from 70 percent to 50 percent. The legislation also included smaller cuts in lower tax brackets, as well as big breaks for corporations and the oil industry. But the following year, as the economy was mired in recession and the federal deficit was spiraling out of control, even groups such as the Business Roundtable lobbied Reagan to raise taxes. And he did: The Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 was, at the time, the largest peacetime tax increase in U.S. history.

Ultimately, Reagan signed measures that increased federal taxes every year of his two-term presidency except the first and the last. These included a higher gasoline levy, a 1986 tax reform deal that included the largest corporate tax increase in American history, and a substantial raise in payroll taxes in 1983 as part of a deal to keep Social Security solvent. While wealthy Americans benefitted from Reagan's tax policies, blue-collar Americans paid a higher percentage of their income in taxes when Reagan left office than when he came in.

3. Reagan was a hawk.

Long before he was elected president, Reagan predicted that the Soviet Union would collapse because of communism's inherent corruption and inefficiency. His forecast proved accurate, but it is not clear that his military buildup moved the process forward. Though Reagan expanded the U.S. military and launched new weapons programs, his real contributions to the end of the Cold War were his willingness to negotiate arms reductions with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev and his encouragement of Gorbachev as a domestic reformer. Indeed, a USA Today poll taken four days after the fall of the Berlin Wall found that 43 percent of Americans credited Gorbachev, while only 14 percent cited Reagan.

With the exception of the 1986 bombing of Libya, Reagan also disappointed hawkish aides with his unwillingness to retaliate militarily for terrorism in the Middle East. According to biographer Lou Cannon, the president called the death of innocent civilians in anti-terror operations "terrorism itself."

In 1987, Reagan aide Paul Bremer, later George W. Bush's point man in Baghdad, even argued that terrorism suspects should be tried in civilian courts. "A major element of our strategy has been to delegitimize terrorists, to get society to see them for what they are - criminals - and to use democracy's most potent tool, the rule of law, against them," Bremer said. In 1988, Reagan signed the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which stated that torture could be used under "no exceptional circumstances, whatsoever."

4. Reagan shrank the federal government.

Reagan famously declared at his 1981 inauguration that "in the present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem." This rhetorical flourish didn't stop the 40th president from increasing the federal government's size by every possible measure during his eight years in office.

Federal spending grew by an average of 2.5 percent a year, adjusted for inflation, while Reagan was president. The national debt exploded, increasing from about $700 billion to nearly $3 trillion. Many experts believe that Reagan's massive deficits not only worsened the recession of the early 1990s but doomed his successor, George H.W. Bush, to a one-term presidency by forcing him to abandon his "no new taxes" pledge.

The number of federal employees grew from 2.8 million to 3 million under Reagan, in large part because of his buildup at the Pentagon. (It took the Democratic administration of President Bill Clinton to trim the employee rolls back to 2.7 million.) Reagan also abandoned a campaign pledge to get rid of two Cabinet agencies - Energy and Education - and added a new one, Veterans Affairs.

5. Reagan was a conservative culture warrior.

Reagan's contributions to the culture wars of the 1980s were largely rhetorical and symbolic. Although he published a book in 1983 about his staunch opposition to abortion (overlooking the fact that he had legalized abortion in California as governor in the late 1960s), he never sought a constitutional ban on abortion. In fact, Reagan began the odd practice of speaking to anti-abortion rallies by phone instead of in person - a custom continued by subsequent Republican presidents. He also advocated prayer in public schools in speeches, but never in legislation.

In 1981, Reagan unintentionally did more than any other president to prevent the Roe v. Wade abortion ruling from being overturned when he appointed Sandra Day O'Connor to the Supreme Court. O'Connor mostly upheld abortion rights during her 25 years as a justice.

No wonder that home-schooling advocate Michael Ferris was one of many right-wing activists complaining about Reagan by the end of his presidency, writing that his White House "offered us a bunch of political trinkets."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/04/AR2011020403104_pf.html

When I see these descriptions, while fairly true, it seems to be never mentioned that congress was controlled by liberal Dems and that led to the increased debt and amnesty, etc...he could have never gotten a true conservative on the court during his time and neither could GHWB although he was a rino anyway...

[Wishboned]

You can say what you want about him but you always knew he loved this country and wouldn't take sh!t from anyone...:)

Except for terrorists...

1983 - Bombing at United States Embassy in Beirut, April 18, 1983. 17 Americans, are killed.

1983 - Beirut barracks bombing, October 23, 1983. 241 US servicemen (including the largest number of Marines killed in a single day attack since the attack on Iwo Jima) are killed by 2 suicide bombers.

1984 - Two Americans were killed when a van loaded with four hundred pounds of explosives exploded in front of the U.S. Embassy annex in Awkar, Lebanon. Islamic Jihad (code name of Hezbollah) claimed responsibility for the bombing in a call to the media.

1985 - TWA Flight 847 hijacked, U.S. Navy diver is killed by Hezbollah.

1985 - Achille Lauro hijacking, wheel-chair bound American killed by Palestinian militants.

1986 - Four Americans were killed and five Americans were injured when a bomb exploded aboard TWA Flight 840 as it traveled from Rome to Athens. The aircraft was able to land safely at Athens International Airport.

1986 - On April 6, a Berlin discotheque bombing killed 2 US servicemen and injured more than 50 American servicemen.


1988 - On April 14 at 8 p.m., a car bomb exploded in front of the USO Club in Naples, Italy. Five people died and fifteen were injured, including four U.S. servicemen who were injured and US Navy Petty Officer Angela Santos, 21, was killed. Junzo Okudaira, a Japanese Red Army (JRA) member, was indicted in the United States on April 9, 1993 for the Naples bombing. Okudaira is also a suspect in the June 1987 car bombing and mortar attack against the U.S. Embassy in Rome.

1988 - Pan Am Flight 103: 190 Americans died.

By my count that is 462 Americans killed by terrorist attacks during the Reagan years.

But wait, there's more. Reagan had his own hostage crisis to deal with:

Charles Glass - he was held for over 60 days before he escaped.
David Dodge - held for over a year
Lawrence Jenco - held for 564 days
Benjamin Wier - held for 16 months.
Thomas Sutherland - 2353 days. That's over 6 years.
And Terry Anderson who was held for even longer. He was a hostage from March 16th, 1985 until December 4th, 1991.

[The Profit]

I liked Reagan primarily because he was great communicator, but like with JFK, we tend to beatify him above what he actualy was. For example, he raised taxes more than 4 times during his presidency, grew the size of government and exploded the national debt. Yet, he made many Americans feel better about themselves, which fulfilled one of the great responsibilities of a president.

[OhU1]

I liked him in "Bedtime for Bonzo".

[Cornfed]

Except for terrorists...

1983 - Bombing at United States Embassy in Beirut, April 18, 1983. 17 Americans, are killed.

1983 - Beirut barracks bombing, October 23, 1983. 241 US servicemen (including the largest number of Marines killed in a single day attack since the attack on Iwo Jima) are killed by 2 suicide bombers.

1984 - Two Americans were killed when a van loaded with four hundred pounds of explosives exploded in front of the U.S. Embassy annex in Awkar, Lebanon. Islamic Jihad (code name of Hezbollah) claimed responsibility for the bombing in a call to the media.

1985 - TWA Flight 847 hijacked, U.S. Navy diver is killed by Hezbollah.

1985 - Achille Lauro hijacking, wheel-chair bound American killed by Palestinian militants.

1986 - Four Americans were killed and five Americans were injured when a bomb exploded aboard TWA Flight 840 as it traveled from Rome to Athens. The aircraft was able to land safely at Athens International Airport.

1986 - On April 6, a Berlin discotheque bombing killed 2 US servicemen and injured more than 50 American servicemen.


1988 - On April 14 at 8 p.m., a car bomb exploded in front of the USO Club in Naples, Italy. Five people died and fifteen were injured, including four U.S. servicemen who were injured and US Navy Petty Officer Angela Santos, 21, was killed. Junzo Okudaira, a Japanese Red Army (JRA) member, was indicted in the United States on April 9, 1993 for the Naples bombing. Okudaira is also a suspect in the June 1987 car bombing and mortar attack against the U.S. Embassy in Rome.

1988 - Pan Am Flight 103: 190 Americans died.

By my count that is 462 Americans killed by terrorist attacks during the Reagan years.

But wait, there's more. Reagan had his own hostage crisis to deal with:

Charles Glass - he was held for over 60 days before he escaped.
David Dodge - held for over a year
Lawrence Jenco - held for 564 days
Benjamin Wier - held for 16 months.
Thomas Sutherland - 2353 days. That's over 6 years.
And Terry Anderson who was held for even longer. He was a hostage from March 16th, 1985 until December 4th, 1991.

Alot happened in the 80s, we also were heavily involved in SA, and it seemed we were weekly bombing Libya..lol

[lexsooner]

I liked Reagan primarily because he was great communicator, but like with JFK, we tend to beatify him above what he actualy was. For example, he raised taxes more than 4 times during his presidency, grew the size of government and exploded the national debt. Yet, he made many Americans feel better about themselves, which fulfilled one of the great responsibilities of a president.

I concur. His ability to communicate and symbolize qualities Americans admire are qualities Obama is lacking.

[Soonerson1975]

I concur. His ability to communicate and symbolize qualities Americans admire are qualities Obama is lacking.

He learned how to do both being an actor.

[AlboSooner]

I liked Reagan primarily because he was great communicator, but like with JFK, we tend to beatify him above what he actualy was. For example, he raised taxes more than 4 times during his presidency, grew the size of government and exploded the national debt. Yet, he made many Americans feel better about themselves, which fulfilled one of the great responsibilities of a president.

So you're saying, he played the part well.

[CrimsonJim]

He was a great president. We need more like him.

[StoopTroup]

I saw a bunch of them talking with guys from his administration from one of his old desks in his Library this morning. They played an excerpt from one of the things in the library. It was one that has him talking about his Alzheimers prior to when he started to really succumb to it. It really gave me goose bumps because them he wasn't doing it for political gain....he was doing it because he loved this Country. I'd really like to see more people talking about the things they love about this Country rather than talking about who they think ruined it. It's not ruined until you give up. Never give up and as soon as someone throws hate towards you (Whether a Pub or a Lib or a Moderate), remind them of something that's great about our Country instead of fight. If they want to fight....let em pound sand.

[ouwasp]

He was a great president. We need more like him.

Amen, brother. Pres Reagan was the first president I was able to vote for, in '84. Was proud to do so... :)

[SanJoaquinSooner]

When I see these descriptions, while fairly true, it seems to be never mentioned that congress was controlled by liberal Dems and that led to the increased debt and amnesty, etc...he could have never gotten a true conservative on the court during his time and neither could GHWB although he was a rino anyway...

blame the lib Dems ....

1. The pubs controlled the Senate the first 6 years of his presidency, and it's the senate that consents on supreme court nominations.


2.

XWbi6EC85pg

[jkjsooner]

The legislation also included smaller cuts in lower tax brackets, as well as big breaks for corporations and the oil industry. But the following year, as the economy was mired in recession and the federal deficit was spiraling out of control, even groups such as the Business Roundtable lobbied Reagan to raise taxes. And he did: The Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 was, at the time, the largest peacetime tax increase in U.S. history.

In my opinion his was a great move by Reagan. Unlike current conservatives, Reagan realized that you can't keep cutting taxes and increasing the deficit forever. If you can't cut spending enough to make up the difference, then you need to increase taxes. There is no free ride.

I respect Reagan for this. Only weak leaders would continue to cut taxes without cutting spending (or increasing spending). Reagan made unpopular choices and that is what we need in a leader. Now we have guys who take the easiest route. IMO both sides (and I mean BOTH sides) have been criminally negligent when it comes to the deficit.


In 1987, Reagan aide Paul Bremer, later George W. Bush's point man in Baghdad, even argued that terrorism suspects should be tried in civilian courts. "A major element of our strategy has been to delegitimize terrorists, to get society to see them for what they are - criminals - and to use democracy's most potent tool, the rule of law, against them," Bremer said. In 1988, Reagan signed the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which stated that torture could be used under "no exceptional circumstances, whatsoever."

This is one reason Reagan >> Bush II.

[hawaii 5-0]

I always thought of Ronnie as a great host rather than a great President.


That and a grade B movie star.

5-0

[The Profit]

As far as his acting, I preferred him as the gipper in the Knute Rockne story.

[jkjsooner]

XWbi6EC85pg

While I agree with you that the modern day conservatives hardly represent Reagan's legacy, the fact that the original amnesty did nothing to solve the long-term problem is one reason conservatives (and me for that matter) don't support amnesty now.

History shows if we give amnesty today we'll be discussing this exact same issue in a few years. I'm not so sure Reagan wouldn't have changed his stance after seeing that amnesty did little to solve the problem.

[3rdgensooner]

He learned how to do both being an actor.
Good thing he wasn't just a community organizer.

[CrimsonJim]

Glad I came back from my leave of absence to see juan is still beating the Mexican drum. :D

[SicEmBaylor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8_G-mlKxTY

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Glad I came back from my leave of absence to see juan is still beating the Mexican drum. :D

didn't mention anything about Mexicans. I was setting the record straight concerning coop's comment blaming libs for the 1987 RICA amnesty bill. As the video shows, Reagan was on board in the 1984 campaign for re-election.


jkj, what Reagan would have understood is that the shortcoming of the amnesty bill was that it did not offer subsequently a legal pathway for those with a burning desire to get ahead in life (via worker visa reform). In his farewell address to the nation in January 1989, Reagan beautifully wove his view of free trade and immigration into his vision of a free society:

"I've spoken of the shining city all my political life, but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. But in my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and heart to get here."

[CrimsonJim]

*yawn*

Bugger off. Same song, same singer, different day...

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

When I see these descriptions, while fairly true, it seems to be never mentioned that congress was controlled by liberal Dems and that led to the increased debt and amnesty, etc...he could have never gotten a true conservative on the court during his time and neither could GHWB although he was a rino anyway...The ultra liberal congress tried their damndest to bring him down, but America loved him, and that, along with his excellent leadership, allowed him to get a lot of good things done, to the chagrin of the pink congress.

[delhalew]

For me he epitomizes the term Presidential. You never had to worry about him projecting anything but strength and conviction...except for that one time. Wasn't it him that puked on a foreign leader? Or is my mind getting blurred with a later President.

[SicEmBaylor]

The ultra liberal congress tried their damndest to bring him down, but America loved him, and that, along with his excellent leadership, allowed him to get a lot of good things done, to the chagrin of the pink congress.

Congress wasn't nearly as pink back then. There were still a lot of conservative Democrats in Congress during the 80's, and Reagan was very skillful in developing a working relationship with Congress rather than attempt to run over them with a "my way or the highway" attitude.

[SicEmBaylor]

Honestly, I don't think there's been a President since Reagan with as good a working give-and-take relationship with Congress.

[OhU1]

For me he epitomizes the term Presidential. You never had to worry about him projecting anything but strength and conviction...except for that one time. Wasn't it him that puked on a foreign leader? Or is my mind getting blurred with a later President.

That was George HW Bush in 1992 in Japan. If it had been his son W we'd never have heard the end of it.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Congress wasn't nearly as pink back then. There were still a lot of conservative Democrats in Congress during the 80's, and Reagan was very skillful in developing a working relationship with Congress rather than attempt to run over them with a "my way or the highway" attitude.Agreed that congress wasn't as stonewall leftist as the current bunch, but they were still quite difficult and determined. No president from either party has been anywhere near as unwilling to consider the will of the American people like the current occupant.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

*yawn*

Bugger off. Same song, same singer, different day...



Now Jim, you're always a bit cranky right after winter hiberation.

[C&CDean]

I'm going to a RR birthday party this week up here in DC. Some of the guys I'm working with are HUGE fans of his (they've got pics/posters/etc in their offices).

To me personally, Ronald Reagan was the reason I turned in my butt-humping liberal card and registered R. He was the first R I ever voted for, and he was the greatest president so far during my lifetime (Eisenhower was prez when I was born). He rescued our military from the shambles left by Jimmy Carter, restored our self-respect; and in so doing restored a lot of the world's respect - or some might call it fear of the USA.

The one thing I believe everyone can agree on is that he was the best public speaker - as Presidents go - in our generation, and perhaps any generation. Ronald Reagan was downright Presidential and when he spoke, you had to listen. God bless you Ronald Reagan.

[The Profit]

I'm going to a RR birthday party this week up here in DC. Some of the guys I'm working with are HUGE fans of his (they've got pics/posters/etc in their offices).

To me personally, Ronald Reagan was the reason I turned in my butt-humping liberal card and registered R. He was the first R I ever voted for, and he was the greatest president so far during my lifetime (Eisenhower was prez when I was born). He rescued our military from the shambles left by Jimmy Carter, restored our self-respect; and in so doing restored a lot of the world's respect - or some might call it fear of the USA.

The one thing I believe everyone can agree on is that he was the best public speaker - as Presidents go - in our generation, and perhaps any generation. Ronald Reagan was downright Presidential and when he spoke, you had to listen. God bless you Ronald Reagan.




I agree. His aura was probably even greater than his accomplishments. He changed the overall mood of the nation, which is not an easy thing to do. Our of 45 or so presidents, only a few have been able to do this (FDR, JFK and RR). He was untarnished during his first term, and I believe that he would have been more effective in his 2nd term had it not been for the onset of his dementia.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I agree. His aura was probably even greater than his accomplishments. He changed the overall mood of the nation, which is not an easy thing to do. Our of 45 or so presidents, only a few have been able to do this (FDR, JFK and RR). He was untarnished during his first term, and I believe that he would have been more effective in his 2nd term had it not been for the onset of his dementia."they jest cain't hep it."

What hurt him in the 2nd term was the Iran-Contra thing. The dems in congress and the media went nuts trying to get Reagan into big trouble(impeachment) with that issue. They thought Ollie North was going to deliver Reagan's head. Instead, they squealed like stuck pigs when they couldn't accomplish their mission.

[The Profit]

"they jest cain't hep it."

What hurt him in the 2nd term was the Iran-Contra thing. The dems in congress and the media went nuts trying to get Reagan into big trouble(impeachment) with that issue. They thought Ollie North was going to deliver Reagan's head. Instead, they squealed like stuck pigs when they couldn't accomplish their mission.



And my point is that he would have never allowed Iran-Contra to happen while he had full control of his faculties. He was adamantly against (and said it often) exchanging money or weapons for hostages. A completely engaged Reagan would have never allowed Casper Weinberger, George Schultz and Ollie North to do what they did. Even his son (and namesake) has recently stated that Ronald Reagan was not himself during the 2nd term.

As far as the media goes, they were in love with Ronald Reagan, and left him alone until they smelled blood in the water on Iran-Contra. Even then, they went after his subordinates much more than they went after him..

[C&CDean]

And my point is that he would have never allowed Iran-Contra to happen while he had full control of his faculties. He was adamantly against (and said it often) exchanging money or weapons for hostages. A completely engaged Reagan would have never allowed Casper Weinberger, George Schultz and Ollie North to do what they did. Even his son (and namesake) has recently stated that Ronald Reagan was not himself during the 2nd term.

As far as the media goes, they were in love with Ronald Reagan, and left him alone until they smelled blood in the water on Iran-Contra. Even then, they went after his subordinates much more than they went after him..

Nobody really knows if Reagan was slipping, but we do know that his son Ronny is a lying, no good, fairy boy POS who has done nothing but disparage his great father's memory even before he was dead. This much is fact. Ronny Reagan sure as hell ain't no Ronald Reagan.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

And my point is that he would have never allowed Iran-Contra to happen while he had full control of his faculties. He was adamantly against (and said it often) exchanging money or weapons for hostages. A completely engaged Reagan would have never allowed Casper Weinberger, George Schultz and Ollie North to do what they did. Even his son (and namesake) has recently stated that Ronald Reagan was not himself during the 2nd term.

AS FAR AS THE MEDIA GOES, THEY WERE IN LOVE WITH RONALD REAGAN, and left him alone until they smelled blood in the water on Iran-Contra. Even then, they went after his subordinates much more than they went after him..haha. good for you!...how old were you when that was going on?

[The Profit]

Nobody really knows if Reagan was slipping, but we do know that his son Ronny is a lying, no good, fairy boy POS who has done nothing but disparage his great father's memory even before he was dead. This much is fact. Ronny Reagan sure as hell ain't no Ronald Reagan.



I am not a big Ronny fan either, but his daddy certainly loved him and was much closer to him than he was the adopted son, Michael, who has spent his entire life trying to cash in on his father's name. It was probably because of his relationship with Nancy that RR was much closer to Patty and Ronny. I don't think there is much doubt that RR was slipping during his 2nd term. It has mentioned in several books that were otherwise very kind to him. There were many 2nd term moments of him being confused, Nancy telling him how to answer a reporter's question, etc.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Nobody really knows if Reagan was slipping, but we do know that his son Ronny is a lying, no good, fairy boy POS who has done nothing but disparage his great father's memory even before he was dead. This much is fact. Ronny Reagan sure as hell ain't no Ronald Reagan.Wonder why the media likes to follow Ron Jr., instead of the other son, Michael. haha

[The Profit]

Wonder why the media likes to follow Ron Jr., instead of the other son, Michael. haha




There is nothing to follow with the other son. He says the same thing that Michael Savage, Ann Coulter and dozens of other right wingers say. He never really comes up with a new idea. In fact, compared to his competition, he is really rather boring. I will have to look it up, but I think he was banned from the white house during part of his adopted father's presidency. Nancy has never been very fond of him.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

There is nothing to follow with the other son. He says the same thing that Michael Savage, Ann Coulter and dozens of other right wingers say. He never really comes up with a new idea. In fact, compared to his competition, he is really rather boring. I will have to look it up, but I think he was banned from the white house during part of his adopted father's presidency. Nancy has never been very fond of him.Say, let us hear some Progressive New Idea..... How about some Conservative New Idea...

We both know the media likes Ron Jr. because l'il Ron like to dis his dad.

[Aldebaran]

Reagan, Race and Remembrance: Reflections on the American Divide


If one needs any more evidence that whites and people of color live in two totally different places, politically and psychologically, one need only look at the visual evidence provided by the death of Ronald Reagan.

More to the point, all one needs to know about this man and his Presidency can be gleaned by looking even haphazardly at the racial and ethnic makeup of the crowds flocking to his ranch, or his library to pay tribute. So too will it be apparent from the assemblage lining the streets of DC for his funeral procession, or gathering in the Capitol Rotunda to pay respects to their departed hero.


They are, and will be — in case you missed it or are now waiting for the safest prediction in the history of prognostication — white. Far whiter, one should point out, than the nation over which Reagan presided, and even more so than the nation into whose soil he will be deposited within a matter of days. While persons of color make up approximately thirty percent of the population of the United States, the Reagan faithful look like another country altogether. As they gathered in Simi Valley — home of the 40th President’s library, as well as the jury that thought nothing of the police beating of Rodney King — one wonders if they noticed the incongruity between themselves and the rest of the state in which they live: a state called California, where people like them are slightly less than half the population now.

Doubtful. Most of them, after all, are quite used to never seeing black and brown folks, since the vast majority of whites live in communities with virtually no people of color around them, quite by choice, in fact.

That the mourners wouldn’t notice the overwhelming monochromy of their throng is no surprise. But it has been more than a little interesting that no intrepid reporter — or at least someone pretending to be such a creature — has thought to ask the obvious question about the racial makeup of those losing sleep over the death of Ronald Reagan, versus those who frankly, aren’t.

After all, there are really only two possible interpretations of the sanguine reaction by people of color to Reagan’s death: namely, either black and brown folks are poster children for insensitivity, or perhaps they know something that white folks don’t, or would rather ignore.

The former of these is not likely — after all, millions of black folks actually forgave George Wallace for God’s sake when he did a partial mea culpa for his racist past before his death — but the latter is as certain as rain in Seattle.

What white folks ignore, but what most African Americans can never forget, is how Reagan opposed the Civil Rights Act at the time of its passage, calling it an unwarranted intrusion on the rights of businesses, and never repudiated his former stand. Or that as Governor of California, Reagan dismissed the struggle for fair and open housing, by saying that blacks were just “making trouble,” and had no intention of moving into mostly white neighborhoods.

Perhaps they have a hard time forgetting that of all the places Reagan could have begun his campaign for the Presidency in 1980, he chose Philadelphia, Mississippi: a town famous only for the 1964 murder of three civil rights workers. And perhaps they recall that the focus of his speech that day was “state’s rights,” a longstanding white code for rolling back civil rights gains and longing for the days of segregation.

Maybe they have burned in their memories the way Reagan attacked welfare programs with stories of “strapping young bucks” buying T-Bone steaks, while hardworking taxpayers could only afford hamburger, or how Reagan fabricated a story about a “welfare queen” from Chicago with 80 names, 30 addresses, and 12 Social Security cards, receiving over $150,000 in tax-free income. That Reagan picked Chicago as the site of this entirely fictional woman, and not some mostly white rural area where there were plenty of welfare recipients too, was hardly lost on African Americans.

Perhaps black folks and other people of color remember the words of former Reagan Education Secretary Terrell Bell, who noted in his memoir how racial slurs were common among the “Great Communicator’s” White House staffers, including common references to Martin Lucifer Coon, and “sand ******s.”

Perhaps they recall that Reagan supported tax exemptions for schools that discriminated openly against blacks.

Perhaps they recall how his Administration cut funds for community health centers by eighteen percent, denying three-quarters-of-a-million people access to services; how they cut federal housing assistance by two-thirds, resulting in the loss of about 200,000 affordable units for renters in urban areas.

Or how Reagan opposed sanctions against the racist South African regime, and even denied that apartheid, under which system blacks could not vote, was racist, noting that its policies were “more tribal than racial.”

And it isn’t surprising that few if any Salvadorans or Guatemalans who came to the U.S. in the 1980s, fleeing from violence in their countries, were to be seen placing flowers outside Reagan’s library either. After all, the former were forced to seek refuge here precisely because Reagan was so intent on funneling money and arms to the murderous death-squad governments who were responsible for killing so many of their countrymen and women; and the latter no doubt recall how Reagan brushed off the genocidal policies of Guatemalan dictator Rios Montt — whose scorched earth tactics, especially against the nation’s indigenous resulted in at least 70,000 deaths — by saying he was getting a “bum rap” on human rights, and was instead a man of “great personal commitment,” who was dedicated to “social justice.”

That whites would view much of this as irrelevant, even whining or sour grapes on the part of communities of color, is only proof positive that for many if not most such folks, the opinions of, and even humanity of black and brown persons with whom they share a nation is of secondary importance to the fact that Reagan — as many have been gushing these past few days — “made them feel good again.”

But how can healthy people feel good about a leader who does and says the kinds of things mentioned above? Obviously the answer is by denying that racism matters, or that its victims count for anything. Even more cynically, it is no doubt true that for many of them, it was precisely Reagan’s hostility to people of color that made them feel good in the first place. By 1980, most whites were already tiring of civil rights and were looking for someone who would take their minds off such troubling concepts as racism, and instead implore them to greatness, however defined, and pride, however defined, and flag waving.

Whites have long been more enamored of style than substance, of fiction than fact, of fantasy than reality. It’s why we have clung so tenaciously to the utterly preposterous version of our national history peddled by textbooks for so long; and it’s why we get so angry when anyone tries to offer a correction. It’s why we choose to believe the lie about the U.S. being a shining city on a hill, rather than a potentially great but thoroughly flawed place built on the ruins and graves of Native peoples, built by the labor of enslaved Africans, enlarged by theft and murder and an absolute disregard for non-European lives. As Randall Robinson points out in his recent book, Quitting America, when such subjects are broached, the operative response from much of the white tribe is little more than, “Oh, that.”

Yes white man, that. That exactly. That thing we were raised to gloss over, to speak of in hushed tones, as if by our diminished volume or failure to audibilize it, it will go away; that perhaps they will forget about it, and instead join with us in praise of our country, since that is most definitely how so many of us envision it–as our country.

White people, especially those who are upper-middle class and above, have no reason on Earth to be aware of the truth, let alone to dwell on it. The truth is, after all, so messy, so littered with the bodies of dead Nicaraguans, and dead Haitians murdered by Duvalier while Reagan stood by him; so soiled by his support for Saddam Hussein. Better to ignore all that, and to go mushy before the pictures of Reagan in his cowboy hat, to remember a President who, for all of his murderous policies abroad and contempt for millions at home, at least never got a blow job in the Oval Office.

This is the twisted psychosis of growing up privileged, as a member of the dominant group: a group that must view their nation as fair and just, as a place struck off by the literal hand of God, as a place where average guys like Ronald Reagan can become “great leaders.” As a place where an “aw shucks” smile, and a profound lack of knowledge about the details of public policy — or even the names of foreign leaders — is not only not cause for embarrassment, but yet another good reason to vote for someone; where refusing to read up on important policy details prior to a key international meeting so you can watch The Sound of Music on TV, is seen as endearing rather than cause for a recall.

This is why we get people like George W. Bush, for those who haven’t figured it out yet. Oh sure, vote fraud and a pliant Supreme Court help, but were it not for the love affair white Americans have with mediocrity posing as leadership, things never could have gotten this far.

It’s why a bona fide moron like Tom DeLay can brag about not having a passport (because, after all, why would anyone want to travel abroad and leave “Amur’ca,” even for a day) and not be seen as the epitome of a blithering idiot, and why he could probably be elected again and again in hundreds of white dominated congressional districts in this country, and not merely in Texas.

Having to grapple with the real world is stressful, and people with relative power and privilege never know how to deal with stress very well. As such, they long for and applaud easy answers for the stress that occasionally manages to intrude upon their lives: so they blame people of color for high taxes, failing schools, crime, drugs, and jobs they didn’t get; they blame terrorism on “evil,” and the notion that they hate our freedoms: a belief one can only have if one really thinks one lives in a free country in the first place.

In other words, delusion is both the fuel that propels people like Ronald Reagan forward in political life, and then makes a rational assessment of his legacy impossible upon his death.

I think this is why so many white people remember him fondly, and are truly crestfallen at the thought of his physical obsolescence: simply put, much of white America needs Ronald Reagan: a father figure to tell them everything is going to be O.K.; a kindly old Wizard of Oz, to assure them that image and reality are one, even when the more cerebral parts of our beings tend towards an opposite conclusion.

With Reagan gone, maintaining the illusion becomes more difficult. But knowing white folks — I am, after all, one of them, and have been surrounded by them all of my life — I have little doubt that where there’s a will to remain in la-la land, we will surely find a way.

Reagan has been released from the lie, finally, and may his soul find peace among the millions of dearly departed victims of his policies around the world. Meanwhile, the rest of us must pull back the curtain on all phony heroes, Reagan among them, lest we create many millions more.


http://www.timwise.org/2004/06/reagan-race-and-remembrance-reflections-on-the-american-divide/

[C&CDean]

You think anybody is gonna read that whole race-baiting crapola? Meh. Haters gonna hate.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

look at all dem words

[C&CDean]

Words that don't say dick.

[The Profit]

Words that don't say dick.




Yeah, I don't think Reagan was a racist at all. I don't think he even recognized color as having anything to do with character. He often quoted MLK, and he supported MLK Day, when many of his supporters did not.

Reagan also despised the John Birch Society, a shady organization that has weaseled its way into some of the more radical Tea Bagger groups. Ronald Reagan was certainly a conservative, but he would have little or nothing in common with the radical conservatives of today.

[GKeeper316]

Yeah, I don't think Reagan was a racist at all. I don't think he even recognized color as having anything to do with character. He often quoted MLK, and he supported MLK Day, when many of his supporters did not.

Reagan also despised the John Birch Society, a shady organization that has weaseled its way into some of the more radical Tea Bagger groups. Ronald Reagan was certainly a conservative, but he would have little or nothing in common with the radical conservatives of today.

reagan was not a conservative.

[The Profit]

reagan was not a conservative.




Wow, I learn something new every day.

[GKeeper316]

Wow, I learn something new every day.

real conservatives do not raise taxes 6 out of eight years in office, nor do they expand the size and scope of the federal government and it's spending.

reagan liked to tell people he was conservative, but his record says otherwise.

[The Profit]

real conservatives do not raise taxes 6 out of eight years in office, nor do they expand the size and scope of the federal government and it's spending.

reagan liked to tell people he was conservative, but his record says otherwise.



I don't disagree with what you are saying. In fact, I have a tendency to agree with you. Why then does every GOP presidential candidate try to tie himself to the Reagan legacy.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

real conservatives do not raise taxes 6 out of eight years in office, nor do they expand the size and scope of the federal government and it's spending.

reagan liked to tell people he was conservative, but his record says otherwise.and, I guess you really belive that horsesh*t.

[Dio]

Reagan, Race and Remembrance: Reflections on the American Divide

http://www.timwise.org/2004/06/reagan-race-and-remembrance-reflections-on-the-american-divide/

Here's the Cliff's Notes version: Kill Whitey

[GKeeper316]

and, I guess you really belive that horsesh*t.

lol just like your namesake... you look at cold hard facts and see liberal conspiracy or spin. you're a tool on an epic scale, son.

all reagan did was raise taxes and spend like no president before or since, and yet you still look at him like he's some sort of untouchable demi-god, giving you an ideal beyond religion of what to strive for.

i'm not saying he wasnt a conservative idealist... that may be. but the reality is that just about everything he did while in office reaked of "tax and spend liberalism".

[OhU1]

[
Whites have long been more enamored of style than substance, of fiction than fact, of fantasy than reality.
http://www.timwise.org/2004/06/reagan-race-and-remembrance-reflections-on-the-american-divide/

This helps explain why "the black guy" is always the one who has the answers, wise insight, or makes the right choices on TV commercials and shows. The bumbling white guy is clueless until "black guy" solves the problem.

[SoonerProphet]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard60.html

[GKeeper316]

reagan was also the president of the screen actor's guild (a labor union).

yup, that's conservative alright.

[The Profit]

reagan was also the president of the screen actor's guild (a labor union).

yup, that's conservative alright.




He was given that job to run the commies out of Hollywood, wasn't he? Hey, you have to admire him for his hatred of John Birchers though, don't you?

[C&CDean]

reagan was also the president of the screen actor's guild (a labor union).

yup, that's conservative alright.

Yeah, and I was a union steward for 7 years too. WTF is your point? Wait, you don't have one, you just hate Reagan. What. Ev.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

He probably hates Green Bay also...and the mail...

[StoopTroup]

You Reagan haters are crazy. You folks who think Ron was right about everything are too. The reason Reagan was great wasn't because he was a great Politician. It was because he knew this was a great Country. He knew we could all work things out for the best when it got bad and he knew how to convince other leaders how to embrace good and let bad come to an end.

[GKeeper316]

Yeah, and I was a union steward for 7 years too. WTF is your point? Wait, you don't have one, you just hate Reagan. What. Ev.

no, i don't hate reagan. i view him as one of our greatest presidents, but you right wing toolboxes keep attributing stuff to him that he didn't do.

and, basically, what you're saying, dean, is that your own principles extend only as far as your convinience. you hate unions, but didn't have a problem joining one and recieving whatever benefits said union membership gave you. ya, you're just full of integrity, dude.

[C&CDean]

no, i don't hate reagan. i view him as one of our greatest presidents, but you right wing toolboxes keep attributing stuff to him that he didn't do.

and, basically, what you're saying, dean, is that your own principles extend only as far as your convinience. you hate unions, but didn't have a problem joining one and recieving whatever benefits said union membership gave you. ya, you're just full of integrity, dude.

No, you just don't listen worth a ****.

I was a union steward when I was a dumbass liberal. I changed my party affiliation (and also tanked the union) when Reagan came on the scene. In short, I grew up. Get it?

Yes Reagan spent tons of $$. For what? 90% the military, and I have zero problem with that. It was in crap shape, morale was in the toilet, and we were a laughing stock. Reagan changed all that and yes, it took a LOT of dough to do it.

I'm not even sure what you're referring to when you say "us rightwing toolboxes attribute stuff to him that he didn't do." Like what? You saying the night he said "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" wasn't important, and the fact that the wall did come down a few years later was in no part Regan's doing? Hell, you weren't even born yet, WTF do you know about it other than what some liberals spew about him?

[The Profit]

He probably hates Green Bay also...and the mail...




No, I think Ronnie would have been a Green Bay fan. He was a Vince Lombardi kind of guy. Hell, he played for Knute Rockne, didn't he.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I posted an interview of Reagan awhile back -- discussing the meaning of conservative. Reagan viewed it as very similar to libertarian.


Also, if you're in your fifties or greater, you may recall that the first significant action by President Reagan was to take on the air traffic controllers union. Reagan essentially fired their asses and replaced those who went out on strike. When I was growing up, it seemed like one union or another was out on strike. Even though it's not illegal for private company union workers to strike, what Reagan did somehow took the wind out of unions and they've not been the same since.

[C&CDean]

I posted an interview of Reagan awhile back -- discussing the meaning of conservative. Reagan viewed it as very similar to libertarian.


Also, if you're in your fifties or greater, you may recall that the first significant action by President Reagan was to take on the air traffic controllers union. Reagan essentially fired their asses and replaced those who went out on strike. When I was growing up, it seemed like one union or another was out on strike. Even though it's not illegal for private company union workers to strike, what Reagan did somehow took the wind out of unions and they've not been the same since.

Galdamn Juan, that was good. For a quasi-commie I'm impressed as hell. Seriously. Here, let me give you ONE MILLION spek points.

[OklahomaTuba]

Here's the Cliff's Notes version: Kill WhiteyWonder if he would care to compare/contrast the unemployment/poverty situation of blacks under Ronaldus Magnus vs Obumblefuc???

[OklahomaTuba]

The best thing about Ronaldus Magnus is how he he kicked the Soviets in the *** and laughed at them in the process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN3z3eSVG7A&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN3z3eSVG7A&feature=player_embedded

[The Profit]

Wonder if he would care to compare/contrast the unemployment/poverty situation of blacks under Ronaldus Magnus vs Obumblefuc???




Actually, I think the numbers are kinda close despite the fact that one recession was much deeper than the other recession. Of course, blacks in Michigan have really been hurt by the auto industry problems. With that industry coming back, black unemployment will improve. It takes a long time for everything to trickle down.

[The Profit]

The best thing about Ronaldus Magnus is how he he kicked the Soviets in the *** and laughed at them in the process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN3z3eSVG7A&feature=player_embedded





Do you know how he did it?

[OklahomaTuba]

It takes a long time for everything to trickle down.Detroit is a shining example of liberalism's failures. Trickle up poverty at it's finest.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Yeah, and I was a union steward for 7 years too. WTF is your point? Wait, you don't have one, you just hate Reagan. What. Ev.several of those guys in this thread trying to convince us Reagan was a lib, and we should hate him. haha

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I posted an interview of Reagan awhile back -- discussing the meaning of conservative. Reagan viewed it as very similar to libertarian.


Also, if you're in your fifties or greater, you may recall that the first significant action by President Reagan was to take on the air traffic controllers union. Reagan essentially fired their asses and replaced those who went out on strike. When I was growing up, it seemed like one union or another was out on strike. Even though it's not illegal for private company union workers to strike, what Reagan did somehow took the wind out of unions and they've not been the same since.I took you off ignore on that one.

[The Profit]

several of those guys in this thread trying to convince us Reagan was a lib, and we should hate him. haha






Reagan was definitely not a liberal. He was a disciple of Barry Goldwater, who started modern American conservatism. However, Reagan was nothing like today's radical conservatives.

As I stated earlier, he detested John Birchers and he wanted Birchers to stay the hell away from the republican party.

[soonercoop1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8_G-mlKxTY

let me be clear... "damn he was a great orator"...so unlike someone currently in office...

[soonercruiser]

I liked him in "Bedtime for Bonzo".

I liked him most in "Bedtime for the Berlin Wall", and the "Death of the USSR"!
:D

[jkjsooner]

real conservatives do not raise taxes 6 out of eight years in office, nor do they expand the size and scope of the federal government and it's spending.

reagan liked to tell people he was conservative, but his record says otherwise.

Actually a real conservative would balance the budget. He would make cuts when possible and face reality and raise taxes when needed.

Now we have idiots who take the weasel way out. Cut taxes and grow the deficit. They push the problem down the road. Why deal with problems now when we can live it up while still in office.

[jkjsooner]

No, you just don't listen worth a ****.

I was a union steward when I was a dumbass liberal. I changed my party affiliation (and also tanked the union) when Reagan came on the scene. In short, I grew up. Get it?


Dean, after reading a few hundred of your posts, I can't help to think that I'm reading posts from a previous out of control hippie liberal who woke up one day, had some type of spiritual type revalation, and swung over to the other side. In the process you failed to realize that not everyone slightly left of you is an out-of-control hippie liberal.

Basically, you seem to have no ability to put your own life experience in perspective and realize that it hardly represents everyone else.

I had a preacher like that once. He was a real a-hole. (I'm not calling you one.) He was at one time an out of control teenager. I remember one time he was convinced we were using drugs at church camp. We were all good kids. Not of one of us had ever tasted alcohol yet this guy was so warped by his life experience that he was completely blinded to reality.


Someone can have different views from you and still nowhere resemble the person you describe when writing about your youth.

[C&CDean]

Dean, after reading a few hundred of your posts, I can't help to think that I'm reading posts from a previous out of control hippie liberal who woke up one day, had some type of spiritual type revalation, and swung over to the other side. In the process you failed to realize that not everyone slightly left of you is an out-of-control hippie liberal.

Basically, you seem to have no ability to put your own life experience in perspective and realize that it hardly represents everyone else.

I had a preacher like that once. He was a real a-hole. (I'm not calling you one.) He was at one time an out of control teenager. I remember one time he was convinced we were using drugs at church camp. We were all good kids. Not of one of us had ever tasted alcohol yet this guy was so warped by his life experience that he was completely blinded to reality.


Someone can have different views from you and still nowhere resemble the person you describe when writing about your youth.

Fair enough, but not really on target. Yes, I tend to go to extremes with most everything I'm involved with, but the fact I've walked a lot of miles in a lot of different moccasins gives me insight/perspective that few have. I wish I hadn't followed the course I did, but it is what it is.

I was an out-of-control druggie, not a liberal; a product of the late 60's and most of the 70's. However, with that came the whole liberal thing. And by "liberal" I mean apathetic, and I really couldn't have given a **** who the president was. As long as we were free, could get abortions when we needed them, the pigs didn't **** with me, and I was getting high, I couldn't care less.

When I was a stoner, I joined the union and became a steward. After 7 years I decided to give up the drugs, and within a very short time, I began to focus more on the world around me. It was all ****ed up. I was filing the same grievences for the same people - who all deserved to get fired. It was liberalism run amok (even though I don't think I even heard/knew what a liberal was back then).

Reagan comes along and fixes a lot of it - primarily standing up to the unions, and rebuilding our great military out of the shambles the previous 3-4 presidents put it in. To me, he was a beacon of light and gave me true hope (and change - heh).

Anyhow, I completely understand that 99% of the population didn't follow my trail. I understand I'm crass, opinionated, and judgemental. However, my opinions come from a lot of experience and pain.

I realize that most do not have the same background and I understand that most weren't/aren't like me. That doesn't mean I automatically lump every liberal into the POS I was. I lump most of today's liberal in a worse camp. Hell, they're educated, not druggies, haven't spent a single night under a bridge or hungry, and have supportive families. They have all this and they STILL choose to follow a mindset/mantra that is = or even < me when I was a drugged out loser. They should be smarter and know better.

[The Profit]

Dean, my road to becoming a progressive follows a similar course. I was able to register to vote as an 18 year old in 1972. I couldn't wait to register as a republican. Even before turning 18, I worked on political campaigns for Dewey Bartlett, Jim Smith (US Congress) and Richard Nixon/Spiro Agnew. I was President of my college republican group. Then came Watergate, and the realization that the president of the United States was nothing but a frigging crook. I listened as the works of Donald Segretti were outlined. I listened to how the Re-Election committee used false information to label George McGovern, a World War II hero, as a coward. Nixon was, perhaps, a diplomatic genius, but he had no regard for the constitution of the United States. I hope the SOB rots in hell. He certain deserves to. By the time the next presidential election arrived, I had changed my registration to democrat. Even then, I still have had no problem voting for republicans from time-to-time. I voted for Reagan twice, and for George H.W. Bush (definitely the better of the two) once.

I, too, agree that Unions have become too powerful. I work with them on a regular basis, and it can be a real pain in the azz. I also have read what the working conditions were in this country prior to unions. Industrialists, such as Henry Ford, Andrew Carnegie, etc. found the cheapest laborers, and worked them to death. Many industries paid their employees with company "chits" that could only be used at company stores, and for company provided lodging. Unions were a necessary evil at the point of their conception. I believe there must be a balance between the rights of the employer and the rights of employees. Responsible companies that treat their employees fairly have no worry about a union forming in their workplace.

I think the nation was probably at its best with Reagan-style leadership, when both parties worked together for common good. The partisanship we have suffered under for the past 20 years has produced nothing good.

[jkjsooner]

Fair enough, but not really on target. Yes, I tend to go to extremes with most everything I'm involved with, but the fact I've walked a lot of miles in a lot of different moccasins gives me insight/perspective that few have. I wish I hadn't followed the course I did, but it is what it is.

I was an out-of-control druggie, not a liberal; a product of the late 60's and most of the 70's. However, with that came the whole liberal thing. And by "liberal" I mean apathetic, and I really couldn't have given a **** who the president was. As long as we were free, could get abortions when we needed them, the pigs didn't **** with me, and I was getting high, I couldn't care less.

When I was a stoner, I joined the union and became a steward. After 7 years I decided to give up the drugs, and within a very short time, I began to focus more on the world around me. It was all ****ed up. I was filing the same grievences for the same people - who all deserved to get fired. It was liberalism run amok (even though I don't think I even heard/knew what a liberal was back then).

Reagan comes along and fixes a lot of it - primarily standing up to the unions, and rebuilding our great military out of the shambles the previous 3-4 presidents put it in. To me, he was a beacon of light and gave me true hope (and change - heh).

Anyhow, I completely understand that 99% of the population didn't follow my trail. I understand I'm crass, opinionated, and judgemental. However, my opinions come from a lot of experience and pain.

I realize that most do not have the same background and I understand that most weren't/aren't like me. That doesn't mean I automatically lump every liberal into the POS I was. I lump most of today's liberal in a worse camp. Hell, they're educated, not druggies, haven't spent a single night under a bridge or hungry, and have supportive families. They have all this and they STILL choose to follow a mindset/mantra that is = or even < me when I was a drugged out loser. They should be smarter and know better.

Fair enough. Great post.

I've seen plenty of people follow opposite paths as well. I've seen them as strongly independent people who believed in hard work and self reliance. Then something happens that alters their whole belief structure. I've seen people who worked hard all their lives, made sure their families were always insured, saved what they could and, boom, their spouse got a debilitating decades long illness which, even with insurance, drained their finances dry and left them penniless. Short of becomming a self made millionaire, no amount of financial planning or self reliance could have saved them.

Anyway, I think you're right that life experiences drive our beliefs. The best we can do is listen and learn from others as well as share our experiences and beliefs with others. (Not implying that this is the forum to do so. It's too much fun trying to score points and make others out to be fools and hoping the same doesn't happen to you.)

Hopefully I'll remember that we've had this discussion and not visit it again. I'd hate to bring up a post like my previous one again but sometimes I'm not the greatest at remembering what's been discussed.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Galdamn Juan, that was good. For a quasi-commie I'm impressed as hell. Seriously. Here, let me give you ONE MILLION spek points.

quasi-commie?

I do enjoy making fun of some of the ridiculous things pubs say and do, but that hardly makes me a quasi-commie.

Let's look at a few issues to see how well this label applies, dean.

1. I believe in the free movement of capital and labor. The hallmark of communism is the restriction of the flow of capital and labor. Under communism, the bureaucrats, rather than the free market, dictate the flow of capital and labor.


2. I believe employers should decide who the best employees are, not the government. Government bureaucrats should be servants to those who create wealth. Communists love for the government to decide matters. I believe those who risk capital should decide.


3. Stalin criminalized male-on-male sex. It was not decriminalized until after the dissolution of the Soviet Union. North Korea, Cuba, Viet Nam, and China do not recognize same sex marriage. My position? Same sex marriage should be recognized by the state.

I could go on, but let me summarize ... CATO Libertarian, not a quasi-commie. About the only issue I disagree with CATO Institute is drug tolerance. It makes welfare twice as bad as it needs to be and it destroys kids.

OK, I admit it, when I was in high school I fantasized about shooting the school chaplin for giving these holier-than-thou sermonettes each and every ****ing morning over the intercom. I didn't even get a choice of a waterboarding, instead. Call me commie.



Now as far as that million spek sent my way ...thanks ...but, well, such things are fleeting, 2 million in spek one day and it disappears w/o a visible neg the next day. I guess the South Oval Stasi has its way, like back in the old days, over at the Posse Hideout where the Spek Jihad planning sessions took place.

[2121Sooner]

Unions = Business Terrorists

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Fair enough, but not really on target. Yes, I tend to go to extremes with most everything I'm involved with, but the fact I've walked a lot of miles in a lot of different moccasins gives me insight/perspective that few have. I wish I hadn't followed the course I did, but it is what it is.

I was an out-of-control druggie, not a liberal; a product of the late 60's and most of the 70's. However, with that came the whole liberal thing. And by "liberal" I mean apathetic, and I really couldn't have given a **** who the president was. As long as we were free, could get abortions when we needed them, the pigs didn't **** with me, and I was getting high, I couldn't care less.

When I was a stoner, I joined the union and became a steward. After 7 years I decided to give up the drugs, and within a very short time, I began to focus more on the world around me. It was all ****ed up. I was filing the same grievences for the same people - who all deserved to get fired. It was liberalism run amok (even though I don't think I even heard/knew what a liberal was back then).

Reagan comes along and fixes a lot of it - primarily standing up to the unions, and rebuilding our great military out of the shambles the previous 3-4 presidents put it in. To me, he was a beacon of light and gave me true hope (and change - heh).

Anyhow, I completely understand that 99% of the population didn't follow my trail. I understand I'm crass, opinionated, and judgemental. However, my opinions come from a lot of experience and pain.

I realize that most do not have the same background and I understand that most weren't/aren't like me. That doesn't mean I automatically lump every liberal into the POS I was. I lump most of today's liberal in a worse camp. Hell, they're educated, not druggies, haven't spent a single night under a bridge or hungry, and have supportive families. They have all this and they STILL choose to follow a mindset/mantra that is = or even < me when I was a drugged out loser. They should be smarter and know better.With a govt. controlled economy, the private sector withers, and considerably less economic activity results. We all suffer. How smart does ANYONE have to be to realize that the requirement of reasonable freedom and need for a govt. that fosters that freedom, are human nature? and Prosperity is accomplished only from that situation? The USA is an irrefutable example.

[soonerhubs]

Anyone watch the PBS special on Reagan? 4 hours worth watching, IMHO.

[SoCaliSooner]

Unions = Business Terrorists
Indeed. I think in honor of Reagan's birthday I will go to a soup kitchen and fill my belly with food...and keep a homeless person from getting a meal.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

http://perotcharts.com/images/challenges/challenges01.png

Reduced the size of the government you say?

[SicEmBaylor]

Indeed. I think in honor of Reagan's birthday I will go to a soup kitchen and fill my belly with food...and keep a homeless person from getting a meal.

This is sort of like how I celebrate MLK Day by lining up at the Welfare Office and then taking a tour of the county lockup.

[SicEmBaylor]

Coolidge and Garfield really do not get enough cred from conservatives.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Coolidge and Garfield really do not get enough cred from conservatives.

Especially Garfield. His greatest accomplishment was constructing a novel proof of the Pythagorean Theorem.



Garfield's Proof

The twentieth president of the United States gave the following proof to the Pythagorean Theorem. He discovered this proof five years before he become President. He hit upon this proof in 1876 during a mathematics discussion with some of the members of Congress. It was later published in the New England Journal of Education.. The proof depends on calculating the area of a right trapezoid two different ways. The first way is by using the area formula of a trapezoid and the second is by summing up the areas of the three right triangles that can be constructed in the trapezoid. He used the following trapezoid in developing his proof.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_-qF6CbJo2vY/Ryhw47wup2I/AAAAAAAABOM/eFPbO8cOGvE/s400/Pythagorean+Garfield.JPG



First, we need to find the area of the trapezoid by using the area formula of the trapezoid.
A=(1/2)h(b1+b2) area of a trapeziod


In the above diagram, h=a+b, b1=a, and b2=b.

A=(1/2)(a+b)(a+b)
=(1/2)(a^2+2ab+b^2).

Now, let's find the area of the trapezoid by summing the area of the three right triangles.
The area of the yellow triangle is
A=1/2(ba).

The area of the red triangle is
A=1/2(c^2).

The area of the blue triangle is
A= 1/2(ab).

The sum of the area of the triangles is
1/2(ba) + 1/2(c^2) + 1/2(ab) = 1/2(ba + c^2 + ab) = 1/2(2ab + c^2).

Since, this area is equal to the area of the trapezoid we have the following relation:
(1/2)(a^2 + 2ab + b^2) = (1/2)(2ab + c^2).

Multiplying both sides by 2 and subtracting 2ab from both sides we get


a^2 + b^2 = c^2



concluding the proof.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

http://www.history.com/images/media/slideshow/james-garfield/james-garfield-shot.jpg

EUREKA!

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Coolidge and Garfield really do not get enough cred from conservatives.So little emphasis on their administrations in the history books. At least way back when I was in school. The most emphasis I remember from school days was Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR. As a kid, something in the back of my mind had me wonder why the Depression lasted so long...and why the people kept electing FDR.

[bigfatjerk]

So little emphasis on their administrations in the history books. At least way back when I was in school. The most emphasis I remember from school days was Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and FDR. As a kid, something in the back of my mind had me wonder why the Depression lasted so long...and why the people kept electing FDR.

I've been looking a lot at this period in history. FDR once said of Hoover "He'll make a great president"

That should say it all. They both basically ran the same programs yet Hoover gets blamed for everything FDR did. Sounds a lot like Bush now.

Coolidge might be the best president nobody ever talks about. And he could have ran for president one more term and saved a lot of trouble. We still would have had the depression but it wouldn't have been near as bad with him at the helm. We wouldn't have had a Smoot-Hawley tariff or one of the biggest tax raises ever like we had under Hoover. And we wouldn't have had a president try and raise prices on goods that ended up pricing people out of the work place like we did with Hoover.