State Board of Education meltdown today

[badger]

They just had their first meeting with new state Superintendent, Janet Barresi. Things did not go well.

Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=19&articleid=20110127_19_0_OKLAHO240784)

Among the awfulness, a pregnancy joke (where one of the appointees was declared "worthless" if she was out on maternity leave, which reportedly sent her out of the meeting in tears), accusations of being a "dictator" and appointing "political cronies," and taking two votes that were likely not legal.

Two of Janet's appointments were accused of conducting business as their appointed positions before being approved as the appointees by the board (they were both voted down today) and being paid privately till their public pay kicked in (which wouldn't happen till their appointments were approved).

Anyway... ugggggh. Can't Republican women get any respect in this state, or only if the ones they're dealing with are also Republicans.... I get it. You're ticked that the governor that appointed you to your board position is out and the longterm superintendent retired, so stuff is going to change. But gawd, why do you have to be so disrespectful in such a public setting? :(

[2121Sooner]

Well, the first problem is that she is a woman.....


You KNEW this was not gonna go well.

[The Profit]

Didn't this heifer have two sons, who played football? One of them came to OU and quit, while the other went to Arizona and quit. Just judging from the story, it looks like she might be a nut.

[saucysoonergal]

She has man hair. ;)

[SicEmBaylor]

Herb Rozell is a *********. He always has been.

[SicEmBaylor]

Didn't this heifer have two sons, who played football? One of them came to OU and quit, while the other went to Arizona and quit. Just judging from the story, it looks like she might be a nut.

How is she the one that comes across as a nut? All she did was seek to appoint two former campaign staffers to her office staff which is pretty much what 100% of elected officials do. There's absolutely nothing strange or inappropriate about that. The fact that one of them was paid, for a short time, from a private interest is a fairly minor quibble so long as he doesn't continue to get paid while he's officially working for the state.

[SicEmBaylor]

It's an especially minor issue when you consider the fact that the former SecEd had her head so far up the *** of the state's teachers unions that she might as well have been a paid lobbyist for them.

[Partial Qualifier]

it looks like she might be a nut.

Or she's trying to apply CPR to the mangled, gasping, wheezing public school situation. 2 things:

I don't feel the issue with using private funds to pay soon-to-be official personnel is that big of a deal, assuming she was after these particular individuals and had to pay them somehow so they could begin working for her.

And from the comments: "Having taught school for 25 years we can tell she is clue less as to how to run the states school system." Foul grammar aside.. You mean the same state school system that's a national embarrassment, there, Festus??

[OklahomaTuba]

They're scared. The NEA is scared. The public school industrial complex is scared. They know things are changing for the better, that they're gravy train is about to end and that upsets them.

The ponzi scheme that is the government education/public employee complex is starting to unravel, and they know it.

[SicEmBaylor]

The Unions have enjoyed a stranglehold on Oklahoma Education policy since Day 1. I don't often agree with Tuba, but he's 100% right. There are a lot of people who stand to lose a lot when reform is made, and that's what this is really about. The members of the state board of education are most interested in protecting their little bureaucratic fiefdoms.

[The Profit]

They're scared. The NEA is scared. The public school industrial complex is scared. They know things are changing for the better, that they're gravy train is about to end and that upsets them.

The ponzi scheme that is the government education/public employee complex is starting to unravel, and they know it.


Is the "pubic school industrial complex" anything like the "military industrial complex." Are they equally as corrupt?

[OUMallen]

Or she's trying to apply CPR to the mangled, gasping, wheezing public school situation. 2 things:

I don't feel the issue with using private funds to pay soon-to-be official personnel is that big of a deal, assuming she was after these particular individuals and had to pay them somehow so they could begin working for her.

And from the comments: "Having taught school for 25 years we can tell she is clue less as to how to run the states school system." Foul grammar aside.. You mean the same state school system that's a national embarrassment, there, Festus??

There's the issue of bribery. It's kind of a big deal honestly. I work with state officials and employees, and I've been instructed by my boss not to ever give them *anything* at all. He said that when I half-jokingly mentioned sending a low-level employee a fruit basket for being super helpful on one occasion.

[jkjsooner]

They're scared. The NEA is scared. The public school industrial complex is scared. They know things are changing for the better, that they're gravy train is about to end and that upsets them.

The ponzi scheme that is the government education/public employee complex is starting to unravel, and they know it.

Do you know what a ponzi scheme is? I ask because I can't figure out how the "public education complex" could possibly be a ponzi scheme. By chance are you just throwing out negative words without really thinking about their meaning?

[SoCaliSooner]

Didn't this heifer have two sons, who played football? One of them came to OU and quit, while the other went to Arizona and quit. Just judging from the story, it looks like she might be a nut.

She raises quitters. Just the person to put in charge of failing schools.


Again, I am glad my children enjoy private school....

[The]

Again, I am glad my children enjoy private school....

This. You get what you pay for.

[Midtowner]

The state school board will only be able to be obstructionist for there years. After that, Fallin's appointees will outnumber them.

Best to be agents for positive change rather than crass obstructionists. Both of these appointees were extremely qualified.

As to Barresi herself, I'm a huge fan. My wife is a teacher at the charter school Barresi helped found. A public school, which is free to get into, where well more than half the kids are on free and reduced lunch, which is ranked #3 in the state and #69 (or 68) in the country for public high schools.

A lot of her agenda items should definitely scare unions. Accountability for teachers, due process reforms, forcing teachers to do their jobs, school choice, etc.

And she's not a Christian zealot. I'm not even aware as to whether she is religious. If the folks the school board she used to sit on are any indication as to her political views, then at least socially, she's left-of-center.

[okie52]

If this is the same Barresi that son's went to OU and AZ on football scholarships, then her husband also played football for OU.

Good luck to her but it sounds like the old dem party line on the school board and teachers union will be a problem for a while.

Hopefully Fallin will get her people in there to eliminate a bunch of this crap.

[The Profit]

If this is the same Barresi that son's went to OU and AZ on football scholarships, then her husband also played football for OU.

Good luck to her but it sounds like the old dem party line on the school board and teachers union will be a problem for a while.

Hopefully Fallin will get her people in there to eliminate a bunch of this crap.




Weren't both of her sons quitters.

[soonerscuba]

I am going to feel really bad for the last elected Democrat standing that gets blamed for why Oklahoma still sucks at everything besides being the state "most likely to violate the establishment clause".

[okie52]

Weren't both of her sons quitters.

Don't know....could have. I am sure it will hurt them if they run for office.

[SoCaliSooner]

Don't know....could have. I am sure it will hurt them if they run for office.

Sounds like they are better at running away....

[okie52]

I am going to feel really bad for the last elected Democrat standing that gets blamed for why Oklahoma still sucks at everything besides being the state "most likely to violate the establishment clause".

I am sure the last dem standing will feel the same as you.

[Soonerfan88]

Weren't both of her sons quitters.

Ben had to quit football for medical reasons. One rumor at the time said another player hit him on the head/ear with a helmet.

[okie52]

Sounds like they are better at running away....

They are forever stained.

[oulucas]

She's a dentist. Plain and simple. We elected an effing dentist to be the State Superintendent. Welcome to Oklahoma.

[SoCaliSooner]

They are forever stained.

Like my wifes black skirt after her Christmas party and our trip to the mens restroom stall....

[I Am Right]

Nothing like faicist disrupting a meeting!

[SicEmBaylor]

She's a dentist. Plain and simple. We elected an effing dentist to be the State Superintendent. Welcome to Oklahoma.

So? What exactly should qualify you to be State Superintendent? A teaching degree? Let me tell you, education majors are universally dumber than a sack of nails.

What makes this country great is that there are not those sorts of prerequisites for holding office. Anyone, from any walk of life, can stand for public office and make their case to the public. A good diversity of backgrounds, education, socio-economic class, etc. in government is a tremendously positive thing.

[Leroy Lizard]

Dentist >> community organizer.

I don't know enough about Barresi to judge her, but I do know that her sons or husband have nothing to do with this discussion.

[okie52]

Like my wifes black skirt after her Christmas party and our trip to the mens restroom stall....

Very Clintonian.

[oulucas]

So? What exactly should qualify you to be State Superintendent? A teaching degree? Let me tell you, education majors are universally dumber than a sack of nails.

What makes this country great is that there are not those sorts of prerequisites for holding office. Anyone, from any walk of life, can stand for public office and make their case to the public. A good diversity of backgrounds, education, socio-economic class, etc. in government is a tremendously positive thing.

Look, you seem to be a good enough guy, and I know you from another board so I'm going to try to not be as much of an a-hole as I probably should. The fact remains that, if information on this and other boards is true, you have very little life experience on which to base your comments. Please don't tell me that being a dentist for the past 24 years qualifies her to even understand the issues involved with the office she holds.

Wait, I'm sorry. After she retired from 24 YEARS OF BEING A DENTIST she decided to delve into the education world again by helping to start a charter school. Bully for her, she must be qualified to run every school in the State of Oklahoma.

By the way, to whomever made the comment Dentist>>community organizer, I agree completely. Unfortunately, both <<someone actually qualified.

I know I said I'd try not to be such an a-hole but you know what Sic-Em? I believe you need to get a degree in something, ANYTHING before you run down an entire profession of which you know nothing.

[Leroy Lizard]

Wait, I'm sorry. After she retired from 24 YEARS OF BEING A DENTIST she decided to delve into the education world again by helping to start a charter school. Bully for her, she must be qualified to run every school in the State of Oklahoma.

Correction: She founded two charter schools. So she knows educational funding. That will probably be her primary role.

[SicEmBaylor]

Look, you seem to be a good enough guy, and I know you from another board so I'm going to try to not be as much of an a-hole as I probably should. The fact remains that, if information on this and other boards is true, you have very little life experience on which to base your comments. Please don't tell me that being a dentist for the past 24 years qualifies her to even understand the issues involved with the office she holds.

Wait, I'm sorry. After she retired from 24 YEARS OF BEING A DENTIST she decided to delve into the education world again by helping to start a charter school. Bully for her, she must be qualified to run every school in the State of Oklahoma.

By the way, to whomever made the comment Dentist>>community organizer, I agree completely. Unfortunately, both <<someone actually qualified.

I know I said I'd try not to be such an a-hole but you know what Sic-Em? I believe you need to get a degree in something, ANYTHING before you run down an entire profession of which you know nothing.

And, yet, I still have neither read how being a dentist should disqualify someone from holding any particular public office nor have I heard what the qualifications should be.

She's the elected department head of one agency in the country's 28th largest state. It isn't like she's designing and overseeing the construction of nuclear reactors...

[47straight]

Look, you seem to be a good enough guy, and I know you from another board so I'm going to try to not be as much of an a-hole as I probably should. The fact remains that, if information on this and other boards is true, you have very little life experience on which to base your comments. Please don't tell me that being a dentist for the past 24 years qualifies her to even understand the issues involved with the office she holds.

Wait, I'm sorry. After she retired from 24 YEARS OF BEING A DENTIST she decided to delve into the education world again by helping to start a charter school. Bully for her, she must be qualified to run every school in the State of Oklahoma.

By the way, to whomever made the comment Dentist>>community organizer, I agree completely. Unfortunately, both <<someone actually qualified.

I know I said I'd try not to be such an a-hole but you know what Sic-Em? I believe you need to get a degree in something, ANYTHING before you run down an entire profession of which you know nothing.



Here here! In addition, the only people who should be allowed to manage things are people with degrees in management.

[SicEmBaylor]

Also, I was not aware that the Oklahoma Department of Education was responsible for "running" every school district in the state.

[oulucas]

And, yet, I still have neither read how being a dentist should disqualify someone from holding any particular public office nor have I heard what the qualifications should be.

She's the elected department head of one agency in the country's 28th largest state. It isn't like she's designing and overseeing the construction of nuclear reactors...

I work in the field of education and she is spearheading decisions that will create serious issues in my field that will affect thousands of professionals.

By the way, I can totally get on board with your idea of education majors being less than intelligent. Fortunately, many (I would say a majority) are not like that. My wife is a Nationally Board Certified teacher who has a masters degree in her content area (not education). She's also, by the way, a kick *** teacher (yes, I'm biased). Part of being Nationally Board Certified in Oklahoma (where pay is horrible), is that those teachers were supposed to receive $5000 (before taxes) each year for ten years as an incentive and reward for reaching a pinnacle of the profession. We found out today she won't be getting that money because of the budget shortfall. Outstanding public school teachers like my wife and many others I know get passive aggressively smeared by people like Barresi, who you'll have to admit doesn't have a lot of experience to base her opinions on.

Janet Barresi has every right to be elected to the position she's in. I can't say her opponent in the election was any better qualified, I don't know. What I hate is that evidently no one who has a first hand working knowledge of what is going on in today's public schools was even on the ballot (to my knowledge).

Thank you for letting me vent. I apologize for being an a-hole in the last post.

[oulucas]

Also, I was not aware that the Oklahoma Department of Education was responsible for "running" every school district in the state.

It is one of the three entities charged with governing the education of children in Oklahoma.

[SicEmBaylor]

I work in the field of education and she is spearheading decisions that will create serious issues in my field that will affect thousands of professionals.

By the way, I can totally get on board with your idea of education majors being less than intelligent. Fortunately, many (I would say a majority) are not like that. My wife is a Nationally Board Certified teacher who has a masters degree in her content area (not education). She's also, by the way, a kick *** teacher (yes, I'm biased). Part of being Nationally Board Certified in Oklahoma (where pay is horrible), is that those teachers were supposed to receive $5000 (before taxes) each year for ten years as an incentive and reward for reaching a pinnacle of the profession. We found out today she won't be getting that money because of the budget shortfall. Outstanding public school teachers like my wife and many others I know get passive aggressively smeared by people like Barresi, who you'll have to admit doesn't have a lot of experience to base her opinions on.

Janet Barresi has every right to be elected to the position she's in. I can't say her opponent in the election was any better qualified, I don't know. What I hate is that evidently no one who has a first hand working knowledge of what is going on in today's public schools was even on the ballot (to my knowledge).

Thank you for letting me vent. I apologize for being an a-hole in the last post.

I'll admit that I'm not an education policy guru. My only experience with education policy is the paper I wrote on the subject when I was part of a policy research group for one semester my junior year at Baylor. One semester of research isn't exactly enough to give anyone an in-depth understanding of anything. HOWEVER, what I said about Ed. majors comes purely from the experience of dealing with education majors. If it makes you feel any better, journalism majors are much worse.

FWIW, I truly believe HS teachers should have a degree in whatever subject they are teaching rather than general education degrees. For pre-8th, I think a general education degree is probably sufficient. I know that when I was in public school, the very best teachers I had were those who had degrees in the subject rather than a general education degree.

Irregardless, I understand that you may disagree with decisions made by Barresi. That's absolutely fine. I don't know nearly enough about her or her decisions to pass judgement on that one way or another. My point is that, being a dentist, does not disqualify someone from holding public office. I think it's a very good thing when our elected officials come from professions outside the norm.

[Viking Kitten]

At least my journalism degree taught me not to use words that don't actually exist, like "irregardless."

[SicEmBaylor]

At least my journalism degree taught me not to use words that don't actually exist, like "irregardless."

I'm not sure I can take your word that it doesn't exist. Since...you know...you're a journalism major. ;)

I'm kidding....

[Viking Kitten]

At least one of us graduated. :D

[SicEmBaylor]

At least one of us graduated. :D

Word.

[reevie]

By the way, I can totally get on board with your idea of education majors being less than intelligent. Fortunately, many (I would say a majority) are not like that. My wife is a Nationally Board Certified teacher who has a masters degree in her content area (not education). She's also, by the way, a kick *** teacher (yes, I'm biased). Part of being Nationally Board Certified in Oklahoma (where pay is horrible), is that those teachers were supposed to receive $5000 (before taxes) each year for ten years as an incentive and reward for reaching a pinnacle of the profession. We found out today she won't be getting that money because of the budget shortfall. Outstanding public school teachers like my wife and many others I know get passive aggressively smeared by people like Barresi, who you'll have to admit doesn't have a lot of experience to base her opinions on.


Oh yeah? My wife got word today that she would be getting between 3600 and 4000 instead of the full 5K. And the law does stipulate that the bonus will be given based on the availability of funds.

[oulucas]

Oh yeah? My wife got word today that she would be getting between 3600 and 4000 instead of the full 5K. And the law does stipulate that the bonus will be given based on the availability of funds.

I'm not sure how to take your post. On one hand the "Oh Yeah" threw me off because it sounded like you were disagreeing with my post. On the other hand, you hearing that your wife would get $3600 is awesome. Perhaps my wife heard incorrectly. And yes, you are correct, there is always the stipulation about the availability of funds. But, as you know since your wife went through this, it's not a walk in the park by any means and this was only her second year to collect on the funding.

Do you know who your wife heard that info from? I'd love to share it with my wife. She's pretty depressed right now, having gone through the whole process to find out she's not going to get as much (if any) $$

Thanks

[Leroy Lizard]

By the way, I can totally get on board with your idea of education majors being less than intelligent.

Public school teachers are not less intelligent. Their courses of study, however, are often not very rigorous. That's the real problem, not IQ.

[Leroy Lizard]

FWIW, I truly believe HS teachers should have a degree in whatever subject they are teaching rather than general education degrees.

They usually do. In fact, I thought it was required in Oklahoma for a secondary teaching credential. Not sure.

[Leroy Lizard]

Do you know who your wife heard that info from? I'd love to share it with my wife. She's pretty depressed right now, having gone through the whole process to find out she's not going to get as much (if any) $$

There is no need to be depressed. A lot of people are faring far worse, and the National Board Certification places her in an elite status as a professional. A lot of teachers out there would love to be Board Certified, bonus or no bonus.

[sooner59]

Public school teachers are not less intelligent. Their courses of study, however, are often not very rigorous. That's the real problem, not IQ.

I will agree with this. However, in some cases, they know that if they make it more difficult, kids will either fail and not get a high school degree or just quit because it frustrated them. I know you will say tough ****, they don't deserve degrees anyway. But I am simply explaining what I believe they would use as their reasoning.

[sooner59]

They usually do. In fact, I thought it was required in Oklahoma for a secondary teaching credential. Not sure.

I don't believe this is the case. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure you just need a degree in education.

EDIT: Although I will clarify that I am all for that requirement per subject.

[oulucas]

There is no need to be depressed. A lot of people are faring far worse, and the National Board Certification places her in an elite status as a professional. A lot of teachers out there would love to be Board Certified, bonus or no bonus.

I hear you, and I appreciate your thoughts. But she was planning on a $5000 bonus to help pay off some debt and pay for a family vacation. Her pride as a Board Certified teacher is truly something to be proud of, but doesn't pay for the trip to Yellowstone. You know what I mean?

[Leroy Lizard]

I will agree with this. However, in some cases, they know that if they make it more difficult, kids will either fail and not get a high school degree or just quit because it frustrated them. I know you will say tough ****, they don't deserve degrees anyway. But I am simply explaining what I believe they would use as their reasoning.

We may be talking about two different things.

[Leroy Lizard]

I hear you, and I appreciate your thoughts. But she was planning on a $5000 bonus to help pay off some debt and pay for a family vacation. Her pride as a Board Certified teacher is truly something to be proud of, but doesn't pay for the trip to Yellowstone. You know what I mean?

Yellowstone will come. Right now she just needs to hang in there until ole' fuzznuts is voted out of office.

[IndySooner]

I'll admit that I'm not an education policy guru. My only experience with education policy is the paper I wrote on the subject when I was part of a policy research group for one semester my junior year at Baylor. One semester of research isn't exactly enough to give anyone an in-depth understanding of anything. HOWEVER, what I said about Ed. majors comes purely from the experience of dealing with education majors. If it makes you feel any better, journalism majors are much worse.


Wow. Care to compare paychecks? My journalism degree has done just fine for me.

I also love how you make all kinds of claims about what is right and wrong about this subject with only the experience of writing a paper in college. Your credibility is STRONG.

[Leroy Lizard]

Wow. Care to compare paychecks? My journalism degree has done just fine for me.

I also love how you make all kinds of claims about what is right and wrong about this subject with only the experience of writing a paper in college. Your credibility is STRONG.

He was referring to the rigor of the subject, not the post-college payout. Journalism's reputation ranks down there with education and recreational studies.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[SicEmBaylor]

Wow. Care to compare paychecks? My journalism degree has done just fine for me.

I also love how you make all kinds of claims about what is right and wrong about this subject with only the experience of writing a paper in college. Your credibility is STRONG.

The only thing that I've really said on this subject is that having a dental degree shouldn't preclude one from holding public office as suggested by several posters, and that hopefully Barresi will break the union's grip on the state's education policy. Lucas strongly disagreed with my post under the assumption that I was endorsing all of Barresi's changes or proposed changes. As I said, I don't nearly enough about her one way or the other to either endorse or criticize the changes she's making. Once again, I was simply saying that having a dental degree does not mean she isn't qualified to be SecEd. Mentioning that my knowledge of education policy is more or less limited to the position paper that I wrote as part of a policy studies group was not intended to show off my knowledge on the subject -- the opposite in fact. I merely mentioned that because I was making the point that I could neither endorse nor critique whatever changes she is intending to make in her position.

I couldn't care less about how big your pay check is. There are journalists who make a considerable amount of money doing little more than reading from a prompter all day which a well trained chimp could also do were it not for the lack of vocal cords.

Now, if you want to talk about making assumptions, let's start with the fact that you made a big assumption on what I said without bothering to really read what I wrote. Either that or your reading comprehension skills are lacking. It could be both since, as you said, you have a journalism degree.

[SicEmBaylor]

He was referring to the rigor of the subject, not the post-college payout. Journalism's reputation ranks down there with education and recreational studies.

Don't shoot the messenger.

This. And, to be fair, my majors of Political Science and History aren't much better.

I don't like journalists for a number of reasons. For one, they've never ever been capable of correctly printing a quote that either I said or someone I worked for said. Even when they have tape recorders. It astounds me.

Second, I was burned romantically by a journalism major.

[reevie]

I'm not sure how to take your post. On one hand the "Oh Yeah" threw me off because it sounded like you were disagreeing with my post. On the other hand, you hearing that your wife would get $3600 is awesome. Perhaps my wife heard incorrectly. And yes, you are correct, there is always the stipulation about the availability of funds. But, as you know since your wife went through this, it's not a walk in the park by any means and this was only her second year to collect on the funding.

Do you know who your wife heard that info from? I'd love to share it with my wife. She's pretty depressed right now, having gone through the whole process to find out she's not going to get as much (if any) $$

Thanks

She got it from an email the Union sent out. Not the OEA, but the district association. That was their pre-tax estimate of what to expect based on the State's funding posture.

[IndySooner]

Second, I was burned romantically by a journalism major.

No more needs to be said. I hate accountants.

I will admit, I fell back on a journalism degree due to the fact that I couldn't cut it in the meteorology program.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I don't believe this is the case. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure you just need a degree in education.

EDIT: Although I will clarify that I am all for that requirement per subject.

1. You need a degree in something.

2. You must show subject matter competence in some way, as dictated by the state. Most states try to follow the requirements of No Child Left Behind in that respect, so their teachers are considered "highly qualified."

For secondary teachers, they must complete a set of content courses (e.g., math courses to teach math) or they must pass a test over the content.

For example in California, an approved program for math requires 45 semester units of math (excluding remedial or high school level math). Many prospectvie teachers don't complete a content program and attempt to pass a set of math exams to show competence. The tests are not easy -- a large percentage do not pass their first attempt.


It is true that there may be some old timers teaching high school under a general education credential, but not new teachers.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I was simply saying that having a dental degree does not mean she isn't qualified to be SecEd.

I agree, a dental degree doesn't disqualify her in any respect. I just hope she's not one of the thousands of medicine men who think they've got the cure for education.

[texaspokieokie]

wonder if the "gardenhire" mentioned in the article is related to the manager of the twins ??

not a common name.

Ron graduated from okmulgee hi.

[OUMallen]

For purposes of this discussion, choosing between unintelligent educators/educationlly-degreed folk and a dentist is a false choice.

There are people out there whose credentials are better suited than a dentist.

[pphilfran]

For purposes of this discussion, choosing between unintelligent educators/educationlly-degreed folk and a dentist is a false choice.

There are people out there whose credentials are better suited than a dentist.

Were they on the ballot?

[pphilfran]

We need to scrap the whole stinking system....and force a bunch of parents to get involved (don't ask me how to do that...

After 8th grade kids should either go into the current system for college prep or move to trade school like Vo Tech...

[OUMallen]

Were they on the ballot?

I dunno, but that's not my point. SicEm was trying to create a false choice above that people with educations in education are often dolts, and at least a dentist, while having about zero training in career or education, is better than a dolt.


That was a false choice. A logical fallacy.

[The Profit]

We need to scrap the whole stinking system....and force a bunch of parents to get involved (don't ask me how to do that...

After 8th grade kids should either go into the current system for college prep or move to trade school like Vo Tech...




You are absolutely spot-on. Our education system is 100 percent based upon trying to send everyone to college, and not everyone is college material. The Germans and Japanese have the right idea regarding education.

[The Profit]

Don't know....could have. I am sure it will hurt them if they run for office.



Probably not. It doesn't seem to have hurt Palin any.

[Leroy Lizard]

I dunno, but that's not my point. SicEm was trying to create a false choice above that people with educations in education are often dolts, and at least a dentist, while having about zero training in career or education, is better than a dolt.


That was a false choice. A logical fallacy.

When some posters claimed that she was unqualified because she didn't have an education background, then SicEm probably assumed that their complaint was that she didn't have an education degree.

Keep in mind that our own federal Secretary of Education had no education background whatsoever when he was named Superintendent of Chicago Public Schools. And his choice for U.S. Secretary of Education by Obama was made primarily for political reasons. (His entire track record as an education administrator -- not a teacher -- spanned only eight years.)

[OUMallen]

When some posters claimed that she was unqualified because she didn't have an education background, then SicEm probably assumed that their complaint was that she didn't have an education degree.

Keep in mind that our own federal Secretary of Education had no education background whatsoever when he was named Superintendent of Chicago Public Schools. And his choice for U.S. Secretary of Education by Obama was made primarily for political reasons. (His entire track record as an education administrator -- not a teacher -- spanned only eight years.)

Is that somehow QED?

I think we can all agree that, generally, it's often better to have someone whose career is in a certain field to also have had education and meaningful experience in that same field.

That doesn't mean no one outside the field can't do a good job. I bet a CEO with an MBA from Wharton could run a large law firm pretty well. But the point is- SicEm made a pretty stupid point and should have been called out on it for setting up a false choice.

[Leroy Lizard]

Is that somehow QED?

I think we can all agree that, generally, it's often better to have someone whose career is in a certain field to also have had education and meaningful experience in that same field.

That doesn't mean no one outside the field can't do a good job. I bet a CEO with an MBA from Wharton could run a large law firm pretty well. But the point is- SicEm made a pretty stupid point and should have been called out on it for setting up a false choice.

Not sure of your point. Are we now backtracking because we were reminded that Arne Duncan had even less experience in education than Barresi when he was named Superintendent of Chicago Public Schools?

[OUMallen]

I'm not surprised you're not sure, LL. My sole point was that SicEm put forth a BS logical fallacy earlier in the thread. I can't put it any simpler than that. No need for you to unintentionally threadjack by continuing.

[jkjsooner]

I don't believe this is the case. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure you just need a degree in education.

EDIT: Although I will clarify that I am all for that requirement per subject.

I went to a small school where we had only one high school science teacher. He had a master's in either biology or biology education. I'm not sure which. Nevertheless, he taught chemistry and physics as well.

When I took physics from him he had taught the class two years earlier. Prior to that it had been 15 or so years since he had taught a physics course. (He left teaching at one point to be a full time farmer.) My brother took the class two years earlier and said the teacher was re-learning the material as they went along. Nevertheless, he did a wonderful job and I know from personal experience learning physics from him was one of my favorite educational experiences and I can say when I got to engineering physics courses in college that I was more prepared than most.

Obviously teachers have to have the capability of understanding and teaching the material but I think having a degree in the field is overrated. Sure, if you're at a school that teaches quantum mechanics then it would be nice to have a physics major but at the high school level someone who is a good teacher and understands the material is much more valuable.


I can say the same about my math teacher. He mainly taught Jr High level math courses until I got into high school. In Algebra II / Trig, I would often catch his mistakes on the board and it was just a great learning opportunity.


I'm a little biased because my brain is wired more towards math and science but I'll say the two best teachers I had were not majors in their main field of study. (To be honest, the math guy might have been a math major. It was probably more like an education major with an emphasis on mathematics or something.)

BTW, every single one of the great math teachers I had were also coaches. You see that a lot in smaller schools. If you want to be a coach you better get a math or science degree.

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm not surprised you're not sure, LL. My sole point was that SicEm put forth a BS logical fallacy earlier in the thread. I can't put it any simpler than that. No need for you to unintentionally threadjack by continuing.

So you would agree that there is nothing about Barresi's background that excludes her from being a competent Superintendent of Schools. Okay, I can buy that.


Obviously teachers have to have the capability of understanding and teaching the material but I think having a degree in the field is overrated. Sure, if you're at a school that teaches quantum mechanics then it would be nice to have a physics major but at the high school level someone who is a good teacher and understands the material is much more valuable.

Having people teaching physics that have had only introductory physics is dangerous activity. That subject is hard enough to teach correctly with an advanced degree. I would prefer that students not take physics at all, and I am being serious.

[badger]

I listened to part of the audio from the meeting. It was amazing how condescending some of the board of ed people were... interestingly, the females board of ed members were the most respectful to the candidates for the positions, apologizing for how awful the meeting was going and speaking respectfully to Barresi. It was two men in particular -the former state senator and the Tulsa attorney - that were particularly offensive to listen to. It wasn't just the pregnancy joke, it was constantly interrupting Barresi and trying to undermine the position she was elected to :(

[jkjsooner]

We need to scrap the whole stinking system....and force a bunch of parents to get involved (don't ask me how to do that...

After 8th grade kids should either go into the current system for college prep or move to trade school like Vo Tech...

Up until 8th grade I never took education very seriously. I heard from the teachers that I did good on the standardized tests but I never saw myself as a good student.

In 9th grade something clicked and I started taking school a lot more seriously. My grades improved dramatically and I started seeing myself as a serious student.

Because of my experience, I'm hesitant to railroad kids at too young of an age into one track or the other. Given, my grades weren't horrible and I'm sure I would have been sent to the college prep track after 8th grade but the point is that at least for me trying to determine where I belonged at that early of an age would have been a mistake.

[Leroy Lizard]

Up until 8th grade I never took education very seriously. I heard from the teachers that I did good on the standardized tests but I never saw myself as a good student.

In 9th grade something clicked and I started taking school a lot more seriously. My grades improved dramatically and I started seeing myself as a serious student.

Because of my experience, I'm hesitant to railroad kids at too young of an age into one track or the other. Given, my grades weren't horrible and I'm sure I would have been sent to the college prep track after 8th grade but the point is that at least for me trying to determine where I belonged at that early of an age would have been a mistake.

I suggest we set high standards for our kids and see if they can reach them. To allow them to opt into an easier route at a young age is not a good idea, as too many will take it. At 15 I am not sure kids really are mature enough to make those decisions.

[jkjsooner]

So you would agree that there is nothing about Barresi's background that excludes her from being a competent Superintendent of Schools. Okay, I can buy that.



Having people teaching physics that have had only introductory physics is dangerous activity. That subject is hard enough to teach correctly with an advanced degree. I would prefer that students not take physics at all, and I am being serious.

I think you're totally wrong. High school level non-calculus based physics isn't too hard of a subject for a science guy with a biology background to teach.

I sure as hell would have been screwed and probably would not have been an engineer had I not been allowed to take physics. As it is I won the high school physics contest (test not a science fair) at the local university so I'd say he taught me well. I'm not saying that to brag but to demonstrate how wrong you are.

Also, you say "hard to teach correctly," which is a very important point. At the high school level you have to be able to teach the material - not lecture about it. I'd rather have a guy who has interest in teaching than a physicist who doesn't.

[badger]

Up until 8th grade I never took education very seriously. I heard from the teachers that I did good on the standardized tests but I never saw myself as a good student.

In 9th grade something clicked and I started taking school a lot more seriously. My grades improved dramatically and I started seeing myself as a serious student.

Because of my experience, I'm hesitant to railroad kids at too young of an age into one track or the other. Given, my grades weren't horrible and I'm sure I would have been sent to the college prep track after 8th grade but the point is that at least for me trying to determine where I belonged at that early of an age would have been a mistake.

Same here. Parents were often miffed that I didn't do the busy work assigned to make us kids shut up and sit still in early grades :rolleyes:

I was convinced that labeling math answers and answering in complete sentences were not ways to teach us math or reading and writing or whatever, it was just to make us waste more paper and take even more time on assignments. If Johnny has three apples and takes away two apples, how many apples does Johnny have? ONE! The question says apples so many damn times I don't need to say it again! ONE DAMN APPLE! Crap, I just said apple. Crap I just said apple again. Craaaaaap :mad:

If you end up with a brat like me, take the brat to the library and encourage other learning activities outside of school. The best reading is non-required reading, and the best learning is non-graded at early ages, methinks :)

[OUMallen]

So you would agree that there is nothing about Barresi's background that excludes her from being a competent Superintendent of Schools. Okay, I can buy that.




Are you just making up arguments for others out of thin air so you can eruditely agree or deny?

I never said she couldn't. I never even mentioned her by name. Sheesh, man, try not to be so combative. Probably why your spekker is all red.

My main point is that it is probably desirable generally for a state official to have a background/education in the industry he or she is in charge of for the state.

If she could be shown to have no knowledge of how children learn, and that was because she had no education on the matter, that might be important when she's making policy decisions. But really, I'd rather have a badass CEO-type with great, learned assistants running the OK DoE than someone who was a school teacher for 30 years with a master's in education, but no other knowledge on organization.

[DIB]

Are you just making up arguments for others out of thin air so you can eruditely agree or deny?

I never said she couldn't. I never even mentioned her by name. Sheesh, man, try not to be so combative. Probably why your spekker is all red.

My main point is that it is probably desirable generally for a state official to have a background/education in the industry he or she is in charge of for the state.

If she could be shown to have no knowledge of how children learn, and that was because she had no education on the matter, that might be important when she's making policy decisions. But really, I'd rather have a badass CEO-type with great, learned assistants running the OK DoE than someone who was a school teacher for 30 years with a master's in education, but no other knowledge on organization.


I see two things wrong with your argument.

1. Sic'em didn't say that Dumb Ed Major vs. Dentist were the only options. He merely used the example of dumb education majors to show that having an education background doesn't automatically make you qualified and not having one doesn't make you unqualified. If you can't understand the difference between that and the logically fallacy you attempted to attribute to him, then you should review your own logic skills.

2. She opened two charter schools. This does not make her an expert, but I do not think it should be completely ignored.

[Ike]

I think you're totally wrong. High school level non-calculus based physics isn't too hard of a subject for a science guy with a biology background to teach.


Only if you don't care that your teacher is completely incapable of answering, or recommending good further reading, when a student poses a question that goes a little outside of the curriculum and shows a level of curiosity and insight beyond what the curriculum is designed for. There may be some non-physics people that can do it. But determining who can and can't is a whole lot easier when you require subject matter expertise.

[THE-JROD]

As I read everyone's good and bad opinions throughout this thread, I just shake my head at many. SicEm and a few other seem like the one's that even have a remotely close idea of what is actually going on. I will be graduating in May with a Teachers Education degree. This whole year I have heard many many arguments for and against Barresi. My thoughts? Which dont account for anymore than anyone elses and wont change much of whats going to happen, but she should not be Supt. No this does not mean I feel like someone without an education background cannot be Supt of Education. I feel like she does have some good thoughts and opinions on what needs to happen in this state, but saying that Charter school are the answer is incorrect! Now though I disagree that she should be in office, my mind is always up to change. So if she can prove me wrong and have success with her job, then power to her! With me lookin for a job after May, I just pray things can only get better!

[homerSimpsonsBrain]

...Second, I was burned romantically by a journalism major.

SicEm got dumped by Dan Rather. Thats why he hates liberals

[badger]

When talking about whether Barresi is the best candidate for state super, I am reminded of a funny interview a few years ago when discussing if Kerry was "the best" candidate for president:

Jon Stewart on Crossfire: I had always thought, in a democracy -- and, again, I don't know -- I've only lived in this country -- that there's a process. They call them primaries.

So, is Barresi the best for the job? Perhaps not, but she just got elected by the voters of Oklahoma and likely will be our state superintendent till at least 2015, so it really doesn't matter if she's qualified or if someone can do better, because she's going to be state superintendent regardless (barring unforeseen circumstances) because she was elected.

[Viking Kitten]

Badger makes a good point, although keep in mind the popular vote also leads to goofballs like Clay Aiken being named an "American Idol." ;)

In any case, she is the state superintendent. Get used to it. However, she is dealing with a hostile board who clearly believe she is unqualified. So she had better get used to obstructionism. Politics are beautiful, aren't they?

[Leroy Lizard]

I think you're totally wrong. High school level non-calculus based physics isn't too hard of a subject for a science guy with a biology background to teach.

Even Newton's second law is expressed incorrectly all the time. Teachers say F = ma... wrong! The law of conservation of momentum is butchered habitually. I would rather students learn the content correctly in college than incorrectly in high school.

[yermom]

i might never have taken physics or even gone to college if i hadn't taken physics in high school

taking physics and calculus in high school gave me a huge head start, IMO

[OUMallen]

Well, Newton, we learned F= ma at the Oklahoma School of Science and Math. At that level, you're not teaching kids to be perfect mechanics professors. You're teaching them an approximation on how the world works, linking it to other knowledge, learning important math skills as applied to real-life, and perhaps if it's a high-enough level, checking their calculus. If they reach a level where any more specificity is required, they can learn it then.

"Let's just not teach F=ma." Seriously?? I think we DID figure out that YOU shouldn't be superintendent.

[Leroy Lizard]

Only if you don't care that your teacher is completely incapable of answering, or recommending good further reading, when a student poses a question that goes a little outside of the curriculum and shows a level of curiosity and insight beyond what the curriculum is designed for. There may be some non-physics people that can do it. But determining who can and can't is a whole lot easier when you require subject matter expertise.

I don't think you even need to go outside the curriculum. The simple matter of Newton's third law will trip up teachers when they start discussing electromagnetism. Sooner or later, a student realizes that the forces acting between moving charges don't equate, and all Hell breaks loose. Is a biologist really expected to know that fields carry momentum?

The problem with physics is that the most advanced subjects creep down into the most basic principles. I have taught introductory physics on occasion and it was a monster. Math is much, much easier.

[Leroy Lizard]

Well, Newton, we learned F= ma at the Oklahoma School of Science and Math. At that level, you're not teaching kids to be perfect mechanics professors. You're teaching them an approximation on how the world works, linking it to other knowledge, learning important math skills as applied to real-life, and perhaps if it's a high-enough level, checking their calculus. If they reach a level where any more specificity is required, they can learn it then.

"Let's just not teach F=ma." Seriously?? I think we DID figure out that YOU shouldn't be superintendent.

F=ma is not correct. The left-side is a vector sum of all forces acting on the mass, not just a force. Students get taught F = ma and they start trying to apply it to situations where it fails.

OSSM is not the typical high school. Those dudes definitely have advanced degrees in their fields.

[jkjsooner]

Even Newton's second law is expressed incorrectly all the time. Teachers say F = ma... wrong! The law of conservation of momentum is butchered habitually. I would rather students learn the content correctly in college than incorrectly in high school.

Say what? Just because newton actually presented the law as force being proportional to the change in momentum doesn't mean F = ma is wrong when discussing classical physics. How in the world is that a problem?

[OUMallen]

Yet they taught us F=ma in our calculus-based mechanics course. How funny.

We're all real impressed with your knowledge. Just SUPER impressed.

[OUMallen]

Say what? Just because newton actually presented the law as force being proportional to the change in momentum doesn't mean F = ma is wrong when discussing classical physics. How in the world is that a problem?

He doesn't know. He just wants to argue and boast knowledge.

[jkjsooner]

F=ma is not correct. The left-side is a vector sum of all forces acting on the mass, not just a force. Students get taught F = ma and they start trying to apply it to situations where it fails.

OSSM is not the typical high school. Those dudes definitely have advanced degrees in their fields.

You don't think we learned how to add vectors to find the combined force on an object?

[Okla-homey]

You are absolutely spot-on. Our education system is 100 percent based upon trying to send everyone to college, and not everyone is college material. The Germans and Japanese have the right idea regarding education.

Yeah, but they don't have the US educational-industrial complex and XIV Amendment like we do. Can imagine the hue and cry from college and university presidents if the gubmint limited, in any fashion, a kids access to federally-backed grants or loans based on his or her percieved ability complete a degree program? Schools want tuition paying butts in classroom seats. The exorbitant salaries paid college-level faculty and administration demand it. That's to say nothing of the government racking and stacking federal loan and grant applicants based on ability.

Mind you, I'm with you. The world needs ditchdiggers too. But I don't think there is any way to follow other countries' lead in this area under US law.

[Leroy Lizard]

You don't think we learned how to add vectors to find the combined force on an object?

Have you seen how they teach physics at the high school level? You assume that teachers take care to express the left side as a net force, but you would be wrong. They too often simply say F = ma. Newton's second law should never be expressed that way.

[jkjsooner]

I don't think you even need to go outside the curriculum. The simple matter of Newton's third law will trip up teachers when they start discussing electromagnetism. Sooner or later, a student realizes that the forces acting between moving charges don't equate, and all Hell breaks loose. Is a biologist really expected to know that fields carry momentum?

The problem with physics is that the most advanced subjects creep down into the most basic principles. I have taught introductory physics on occasion and it was a monster. Math is much, much easier.

I'll admit that a brilliant kid who wants to learn well beyond the high school curricula isn't going to be served well by a Biology guy teaching physics. If you're at a large enough school or you go to a magnet school you don't have to worry about that. The fact is at a high school level for 95% of the students someone with strong math and science skills can teach high school physics.

By the way, from my understanding talk about fields having momentum or energy density is more of a convention or a different way of looking at the interraction between fields and particles than it is of an assertion that F = ma is incorrect. It's been a long time but I do have a EE degree so even if my understanding is slightly off it sure as hell wasn't my high school physic's teachers fault. Either way, you learn the basics and refine it as you go along.

Our entire chemistry educational system is based on this - student's accepting a lot of things that don't totally make sense until (and if) they take a quantum mechanics course? (Even then the material seems counter-intuitive and odd.) Are you to say that our entire Chemistry educational system is flawed? Even in college, Chemistry professors would often say, "You'll learn that in quantum mechanics." Crap, I could get a parrot to say that.

[jkjsooner]

Have you seen how they teach physics at the high school level? You assume that teachers take care to express the left side as a net force, but you would be wrong. They too often simply say F = ma. Newton's second law should never be expressed that way.

My teacher with a biology degree sure did. The textbook sure as hell did. It was limited to non-calculus based and I believe two dimensional vectors but that's hardly a problem.

Going in I understood physics a hell of a lot better than 80% of the students in my engineering physics courses. (Want to point out these were not physics majors but engineering and other physical science majors.) Most of these kids came from schools that were larger and presumably had physics majors teaching physics. You kind of made my point.

I'll say this, my physics class in high school was a heck of a lot more advanced than a college level physics for non-majors class.

[Leroy Lizard]

My teacher with a biology degree sure did. The textbook sure as hell did.

Yet you didn't catch the obvious problem with the way I stated Newton's second law.

[jkjsooner]

Yeah, but they don't have the US educational-industrial complex and XIV Amendment like we do. Can imagine the hue and cry from college and university presidents if the gubmint limited, in any fashion, a kids access to federally-backed grants or loans based on his or her percieved ability complete a degree program? Schools want tuition paying butts in classroom seats. The exorbitant salaries paid college-level faculty and administration demand it. That's to say nothing of the government racking and stacking federal loan and grant applicants based on ability.

Mind you, I'm with you. The world needs ditchdiggers too. But I don't think there is any way to follow other countries' lead in this area under US law.

I remember back in the '80s hearing horror stories about communist China and the Soviet Union filtering kids out of school at young ages for various vocational tracts. We were to believe the communists were horrible people because they did this in the good ol' USA we allowed people to fulfill their own destinies. I guess we no longer believe that...

[badger]

Badger makes a good point, although keep in mind the popular vote also leads to goofballs like Clay Aiken being named an "American Idol." ;)

Pbbbth, Clay Aiken was the top-seller from season two, but Reuben Studdard won the title "American Idol" :P

But yeah, China had the same argument when their own version of Idol got the lesser talented singer elected... and then ruled that no television show would ever promote democracy like that "Idol" show just attempted to. Tons of Chinese campaigning in the streets for their favorite singers must have scared the crap outta the communists :D

In any event, Barresi will have to cope with the board, at least till Fallin appoints a new one... does anyone know when that time comes?

[Leroy Lizard]

Gotta go. See you guys in a week, if you haven't put me on ignore.

[MR2-Sooner86]

It's stuff like this that makes me wonder why even bother with government schools. Oh well, best of luck to them.

[jkjsooner]

Yet you didn't catch the obvious problem with the way I stated Newton's second law.

I assumed that when someone says F = ma that they understand the context and how to apply the law.

You can make a play on words and how I didn't add in the "combined force" or whatever but that's just playing games.

Anyway, I mentioned the most cited reason that F = ma isn't entirely correct in that Newton stated that the force (oops I mean combined force) is proportional to the rate of change of momentum which jives better with relativity.

Apparently in your attempt to prove that F = ma is wrong you totally missed that one.

[Pricetag]

But yeah, China had the same argument when their own version of Idol got the lesser talented singer elected... and then ruled that no television show would ever promote democracy like that "Idol" show just attempted to. Tons of Chinese campaigning in the streets for their favorite singers must have scared the crap outta the communists :D
Didn't stop them from making Yao Ming a starter for the West.

[Viking Kitten]

Pbbbth, Clay Aiken was the top-seller from season two, but Reuben Studdard won the title "American Idol" :P

But yeah, China had the same argument when their own version of Idol got the lesser talented singer elected... and then ruled that no television show would ever promote democracy like that "Idol" show just attempted to. Tons of Chinese campaigning in the streets for their favorite singers must have scared the crap outta the communists :D

In any event, Barresi will have to cope with the board, at least till Fallin appoints a new one... does anyone know when that time comes?

Gilpin, who seems to be leading the anti-Barresi train, is out in April. So she'll get at least one friendly in there pretty quick.

Durrrr... I forgot about Ruben. But that makes my point even stronger. :P

[badger]

Didn't stop them from making Yao Ming a starter for the West.

I lol'd at that. Even though Blake Griffin is technically a power forward, I hope David Stern names him as Yao's replaecment :)

[47straight]

In 2009, I didn't get a bonus because my employer did not make as much money as the year before and was laying people off.

For 2010, I will get a bonus because my employer's revenues bounced back.

If I had gotten a new boss right after 2009, I know that I wouldn't be blaming him/her for the lack of funds that they had nothing to do with.

[Okla-homey]

I remember back in the '80s hearing horror stories about communist China and the Soviet Union filtering kids out of school at young ages for various vocational tracts. We were to believe the communists were horrible people because they did this in the good ol' USA we allowed people to fulfill their own destinies. I guess we no longer believe that...

I see your point and generally agree, to an extent. However, given the student loan process is now owned LSB by the federal government, its unfortunate that due to existing laws, some sanity cannot prevail as to who gets these loans. Particularly when a substantial number of same are never repaid and Uncle Sam ends up having to make the loan good. That said, WTF should every kid get college bankrolled, regardless of ability? This is not about preventing kids from reaching their full potential. It should be more about acknowledging that some college loan applicants' full protential was met when they were 15.

[2121Sooner]

In 2009, I didn't get a bonus because my employer did not make as much money as the year before and was laying people off.

For 2010, I will get a bonus because my employer's revenues bounced back.

If I had gotten a new boss right after 2009, I know that I wouldn't be blaming him/her for the lack of funds that they had nothing to do with.

The Jelly of the Month Club. The gift that gives all year long.

[OutlandTrophy]

Sorry I'm late to the party but you people realize that Janet Barresi has an undergraduate degree in education, don't you?

[yermom]

heh.

i'd think starting successful charter schools would be worth more than that anyway

[okie52]

Sorry I'm late to the party but you people realize that Janet Barresi has an undergraduate degree in education, don't you?

As long as she has an R next to her name she will not be qualified to some, particularly the teacher's union.

[jkjsooner]

Homey, I agree that the push to send everyone to college is flawed. We need manual laborers.

I don't know for sure but my theory is that we started pushing everyone into college about the same time we were losing tons of manafacturing jobs (late '70s). The idea was that we would replace those lost jobs with higher skilled and higher educated workers. I guess the idea that not everyone has the capacity to fulfill these goals wasn't a concern.

Of course now we've had 10 or so years where educated white collar jobs have been shipped overseas so the original reasoning no longer applies.

[badger]

As long as she has an R next to her name she will not be qualified to some, particularly the teacher's union.

Every teacher's union is probably up in arms this year because of declining state budgets. There's absolutely nothing the teachers or the states can do - there's less money than there usually is and no federal government stimulus this time around.

After years of fighting over teacher merit pay, or just teacher pay in general, and classroom funding versus administration funding, or just funding in general, the argument this year is going to turn to consolidating districts and teacher layoffs... and both sides lose. :(

Public teachers really have a tough job, I know, because they had to put up with students like me. Alas, any en masse positions that are funded by tax money are never going to be in a position to command competitive pay... especially in competition with surrounding states.

[DIB]

Homey, I agree that the push to send everyone to college is flawed. We need manual laborers.

I don't know for sure but my theory is that we started pushing everyone into college about the same time we were losing tons of manafacturing jobs (late '70s). The idea was that we would replace those lost jobs with higher skilled and higher educated workers. I guess the idea that not everyone has the capacity to fulfill these goals wasn't a concern.

Of course now we've had 10 or so years where educated white collar jobs have been shipped overseas so the original reasoning no longer applies.

The reason this works in other countries is because they promote vocational training as well as college. There are plenty of people that go through 4 years of high school and then to a vo-tech. Should we be keeping those kids that aren't college material (and frankly never wanted to go) from starting their vocational training early. It would also allow dollars to be spent more effectively on college bound students. The entire workforce benefits.

[OUMallen]

I remember when we voted on Right to Work. Are teachers happy about that? Do they generally like their own union?

[SanJoaquinSooner]

Things must have changed in Oklahoma since I was a teacher there in the 80s. Back then, there were no teachers unions. Teachers belonged to professional associations, often unified with OEA and NEA. The law did not allow contract negotiations. Teachers and admin reps "met and conferred" rather than "negotiated." The last year I taught in Norman, I was treasurer of the Norman Educational Association -which met and conferred about salaries and benefits. The pay for teaching wasn't great, but when I resigned, they did give me $300 for the 30 days of sick leave I never used. That $300 was like a going-away bonus!

[47straight]

Sorry I'm late to the party but you people realize that Janet Barresi has an undergraduate degree in education, don't you?

Since she's managing the department of education, clearly that degree should have been in management.

Ok, I'm convinced, she's not qualified. I have to agree now with the progressive democrats on the state board of education that her nominees are worthless to us because they are pregnant.

[ouwasp]

Republican non-OEA/NEA public school teacher here. I'm in the middle of my 26th yr. My parents are retired Oklahoma teachers. My wife is a teacher as well...

I love my job, but it is harder than it used to be. I'll probably stick with it around another decade or so, although I could retire in three years. When I do retire I won't often recall the high test scores my students produce. What I will remember are the fantastic people I've met along the way; a good number of students and fellow teachers. After many good years on the elementary level, I was able to move to another school and teach my favorite subject, American History

Usually I stay away from the ed threads because posters like to get downright poisonous regarding public schools. That, and they tend to paint all teachers with the same broad brush in many instances.

I didn't vote for Baresi but I was glad to see Sandy go. I hope the state dept of education doesn't continue to prove embarassing. Should be interesting.

[sperry]

It's stuff like this that makes me wonder why even bother with government schools. Oh well, best of luck to them.


Schools would get better in affluent communities, but would get much worse in poorer areas, which is where it is most needed.



Of all the political issues out there, funding of education is really the only one I care passionately about. I'm not big on government freebies in most sectors, but a good education is essential to giving people the opportunity to succeed on their own. People in poor rural and inner-city communities are royally f'd from the get-go, because they're born to ignorant parents and stuck in terrible schools that won't help them better themselves.

[Soonerfan88]

People in poor rural and inner-city communities are royally f'd from the get-go, because they're born to ignorant parents and stuck in terrible schools that won't help them better themselves.

Absolutely disagree with this in regards to rural areas. I was raised and educated in a rural school - town population ~2200, graduating classes 50-55 most years. My parents are far from ignorant and the schools cared more about us as individuals because they knew us and our families. We didn't have AP or Honors or concurrent enrollment but I believe I learned as much or more than many who did. IMO, personal involvement between parents, students, teachers and administrators contributes more to the quality of education/learning than anything else. The school district isn't rich and my own family was poor as dirt but everyone cared and that's all that mattered.

[oulucas]

She got it from an email the Union sent out. Not the OEA, but the district association. That was their pre-tax estimate of what to expect based on the State's funding posture.

Reevie,

We, too, found out today that the pre-tax estimate would be near $4000. That's pretty good news considering it could be much worse.

[soonercruiser]

Absolutely disagree with this in regards to rural areas. I was raised and educated in a rural school - town population ~2200, graduating classes 50-55 most years. My parents are far from ignorant and the schools cared more about us as individuals because they knew us and our families. We didn't have AP or Honors or concurrent enrollment but I believe I learned as much or more than many who did. IMO, personal involvement between parents, students, teachers and administrators contributes more to the quality of education/learning than anything else. The school district isn't rich and my own family was poor as dirt but everyone cared and that's all that mattered.

This IS the bottom line!
Money can't buy a good education if anyone involved doesn't care!

[jkjsooner]

Schools would get better in affluent communities, but would get much worse in poorer areas, which is where it is most needed.

I cringe when I hear people talk about how we should not have government schools. Nothing would push us faster to becoming a third world country than if we did not provide a primary educational opportunity for everyone.

I could go along with vouchers if someone could convince me that the vouchers would be enough to pay for a decent primary education. I'm afraid that the voucher would be just enough to subsidize the private education of the middle class but not enough for the poor to get anything meaningful out of it. They would simply be stuck in an even less funded public school.

[soonercoop1]

Schools would get better in affluent communities, but would get much worse in poorer areas, which is where it is most needed.



Of all the political issues out there, funding of education is really the only one I care passionately about. I'm not big on government freebies in most sectors, but a good education is essential to giving people the opportunity to succeed on their own. People in poor rural and inner-city communities are royally f'd from the get-go, because they're born to ignorant parents and stuck in terrible schools that won't help them better themselves.

More money doesn't equal a better education....the whole education system is completely broken and has to be completely over-hauled before anything about money comes up...

[Soonerwake]

Let me tell you, education majors are universally dumber than a sack of nails.

I generally stay away from theses discussions, but this one is over the top. I will stay away from name-calling and such, but I am just curious why you made this claim. Were teachers mean to you?? Did they not give you enough Pepsi?? Did some poor female ed major turn you down cuz she weighed more than you??

[Soonerwake]

More money doesn't equal a better education....the whole education system is completely broken and has to be completely over-hauled before anything about money comes up...

Everyone has this same idea, but noone hase come up with an actual plan to get it done. District consolidation, OK. What else??

[badger]

The epilogue for this board of ed fiasco nears, folks and it looks like Barresi will get the last laugh:

Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=19&articleid=20110221_19_0_OKLAHO368079)

I remember listening to part of the board of ed's audio (they put it online after everyone starting hearing about the stuff being said) and it was hard to not be angry at the condescending tone that a few of the members were speaking to Barresi and her appointees in, the sheer arrogance that they had the control over the state's education by virtue of being board members and were determined to shut Barresi's opinion out if it differed from theirs.

Now the entire board - polite and rude members alike - are not going to get their voices heard. Way to go.

[okie52]

I don't think Gilpin and Rozell foresaw this kind of backlash.

[soonercruiser]

The epilogue for this board of ed fiasco nears, folks and it looks like Barresi will get the last laugh:

Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=19&articleid=20110221_19_0_OKLAHO368079)

I remember listening to part of the board of ed's audio (they put it online after everyone starting hearing about the stuff being said) and it was hard to not be angry at the condescending tone that a few of the members were speaking to Barresi and her appointees in, the sheer arrogance that they had the control over the state's education by virtue of being board members and were determined to shut Barresi's opinion out if it differed from theirs.

Now the entire board - polite and rude members alike - are not going to get their voices heard. Way to go.

Their punishment for being unreasonable a**holes!
"The People" have spoken!

[badger]

I don't think Gilpin and Rozell foresaw this kind of backlash.

Maybe they thought they were invincible... by virtue of the fact that they were unpaid unelected volunteers appointed by the previous governor? Seems silly in hindsight that we didn't all see this coming. I didn't either, I thought they would apologize publicly and everyone would tread more carefully in public forums in the future.

[okie52]

Maybe they thought they were invincible... by virtue of the fact that they were unpaid unelected volunteers appointed by the previous governor? Seems silly in hindsight that we didn't all see this coming. I didn't either, I thought they would apologize publicly and everyone would tread more carefully in public forums in the future.

I know the repubs have had the legislature for the last 2 years and Ok has been moving steadily repub for quite some time, but this is the first time it has really hit me how in control of things they are now.

[badger]

I know the repubs have had the legislature for the last 2 years and Ok has been moving steadily repub for quite some time, but this is the first time it has really hit me how in control of things they are now.

I know, but pride cometh before the fall...eth :D

Republicans have to realize that as strong as their majorities are now in states like Oklahoma, they were once in the minority here and elsewhere, nationally from 2006-2010, statewide before 2004, because of failed policies that didn't connect with the states and entire country of disgusted voters.

The fact that they were able to resume control of the House after only four years was a gift from the voters. If they screw this up, mark my words, the Republicans are going to be giving up the House for far longer next time.

As for Oklahoma, as quickly as this state turned red, it can quickly turn again, maybe not to Democrats, but to moderates or at least different Republicans.

If it makes any sense at all, if the elected officials are out for themselves, they better take care of the voters and not themselves.

[okie52]

Nationally the cycle between repubs and dems will continue to go back and forth. I don't see that changing.

As for Ok and really the rest of the south they have simply realized after a century that most of their conservative leanings are represented much more in the repubs than the dems. While OK may have some statewide offices like governor go dem the legislature is destined to be in repub hands for a long time. Even the congressional reps and senators have been repub for quite some time now (with the exception of Boren).

[oulucas]

Let me tell you, education majors are universally dumber than a sack of nails.

I generally stay away from theses discussions, but this one is over the top. I will stay away from name-calling and such, but I am just curious why you made this claim. Were teachers mean to you?? Did they not give you enough Pepsi?? Did some poor female ed major turn you down cuz she weighed more than you??

I notice you have not gotten a response. I too do not usually weigh in on these topics. But something so ignorant also gave me pause. It sounds like someone failed math or something and has it in for his teacher in high school.

Yes, some teachers are bad, just like some construction workers, or bankers, or people from other professions are bad. But the majority of those who study education I would bet are a damn lot smarter than you, you ignorant ****.

[SteelClip49]

I really haven't followed anything on Dr. Barresi at all in her new position in life but from what I have known all these years and my parents have known all these years, she's a very nice woman and is quite the aggressor.

She was my hygienist and dad's hygienist for over 15 years. Both her sons did play for Arizona and Oklahoma. The one at OU had medical reason which is why he had to stop and there was something regarding her son at Arizona in which he got hurt away from the gridiron, not his fault. Both sons are very nice and personal.

I posted a thread here a couple years back I believe regarding Barresi's husband who was a member of the 1975 national championship team that he had committed suicide and that has had a major impact on their lives.

You can say what you want about her politics and whatever but don't refer to the family as quitters. That is not cool and is very disrespectful.

[A Sooner in Texas]

I'm not sure I can take your word that it doesn't exist. Since...you know...you're a journalism major. ;)

I'm kidding....

Sic, like the previous guy said, maybe you should get a degree before bashing everyone in a particular field (journalism for me, and one that I'm proud of, regardless of what anyone else thinks.)

[SanJoaquinSooner]

So? What exactly should qualify you to be State Superintendent? A teaching degree? Let me tell you, education majors are universally dumber than a sack of nails.

.

Yeah, I guess that word "universally" begs for at least one counterexample. Albert Einstein's first degree was a teaching degree.

While it is true that schools of ed have lower admissions standards than other schools, there are some sharp students who pass through.

[Pricetag]

Give SicEm a break. His opinions are based on dumb *** college kids.

[GKeeper316]

Absolutely disagree with this in regards to rural areas. I was raised and educated in a rural school - town population ~2200, graduating classes 50-55 most years. My parents are far from ignorant and the schools cared more about us as individuals because they knew us and our families. We didn't have AP or Honors or concurrent enrollment but I believe I learned as much or more than many who did. IMO, personal involvement between parents, students, teachers and administrators contributes more to the quality of education/learning than anything else. The school district isn't rich and my own family was poor as dirt but everyone cared and that's all that mattered.

ok great.

i grew up in a small town in central oklahoma (blanchard). i am absolutely positive that children in "richer" parts of the state got a better education than i did. when i hear stories of all the different classes that were available to people in the metro school districts, it makes me hate my folks just a little for moving us there when dad got stationed at tinker so my mom could have her horses.

[soonercruiser]

I really haven't followed anything on Dr. Barresi at all in her new position in life but from what I have known all these years and my parents have known all these years, she's a very nice woman and is quite the aggressor.

She was my hygienist and dad's hygienist for over 15 years. Both her sons did play for Arizona and Oklahoma. The one at OU had medical reason which is why he had to stop and there was something regarding her son at Arizona in which he got hurt away from the gridiron, not his fault. Both sons are very nice and personal.

I posted a thread here a couple years back I believe regarding Barresi's husband who was a member of the 1975 national championship team that he had committed suicide and that has had a major impact on their lives.

You can say what you want about her politics and whatever but don't refer to the family as quitters. That is not cool and is very disrespectful.

Thanks for the perspective Steelie!

[MamaMia]

She's a dentist. Plain and simple. We elected an effing dentist to be the State Superintendent. Welcome to Oklahoma.

Why not a dentist? She understands education and business. This country was founded by the working man.

[OUMallen]

We didn't have AP or Honors or concurrent enrollment but I believe I learned as much or more than many who did.



No, you didn't. Just saying.

[MamaMia]

Lest we forget that Oklahoma elected a physician to serve us in public office, time and time again. A majority of our Oklahomans seem to think hes doing a great job in Washington representing us in all phases of government since he keeps getting reelected.

[Leroy Lizard]

Schools would get better in affluent communities, but would get much worse in poorer areas, which is where it is most needed.



Of all the political issues out there, funding of education is really the only one I care passionately about. I'm not big on government freebies in most sectors, but a good education is essential to giving people the opportunity to succeed on their own. People in poor rural and inner-city communities are royally f'd from the get-go, because they're born to ignorant parents and stuck in terrible schools that won't help them better themselves.

My feeling is that, until they leave public school, give all children an equal chance to succeed. Give each child a quality education.

But once they reach adulthood, they are on their own.

[FaninAma]

It deosn't matter if a Republican or Democrat holds the Superintendent's office.

Until somebody forces the parents of the 1/3 of students who are perpetual underachievers to be more involved the situation won't get any better.

It is not a school breakdown. It is a parent involvement breakdown.

And don't think you can run off and hide from these lower caste of students.....the courts will not let the public school system do that.

So all of your Republican can point your fingers all you want at the system. It isn't the system, it is the poor social system in this state that starts with the family. And I for one find it very interesting that Oklahoma is one of the most conservative states in the country(religiously, politically) but has one of the highest drop-out rates, one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates and one of the lower median income figures in the country. Go figure.

Blaming this on the school system is moronic.

[FaninAma]

ok great.

i grew up in a small town in central oklahoma (blanchard). i am absolutely positive that children in "richer" parts of the state got a better education than i did. when i hear stories of all the different classes that were available to people in the metro school districts, it makes me hate my folks just a little for moving us there when dad got stationed at tinker so my mom could have her horses.

You need to check out Capital Hill, Grant and some of the other inner city high schools.

The difference between good public schools and poor public schools is parenteral involvement.

[badger]

The ed board met again today and it was far more cordial. One of the Barresi insulters was gone, the other one was apparently very silent. They even brought in a trooper to make sure things didn't turn ugly this time.

Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=19&articleid=20110224_12_0_OKLAHO84078)

Perhaps it was just because all they seemed to discuss was the impending education funding cut, rather than job appointments. Perhaps it was because they knew it was likely one of the final ed boards under the current format.

[Shakadoodoo]

It deosn't matter if a Republican or Democrat holds the Superintendent's office.

Until somebody forces the parents of the 1/3 of students who are perpetual underachievers to be more involved the situation won't get any better.

It is not a school breakdown. It is a parent involvement breakdown.

And don't think you can run off and hide from these lower caste of students.....the courts will not let the public school system do that.

So all of your Republican can point your fingers all you want at the system. It isn't the system, it is the poor social system in this state that starts with the family. And I for one find it very interesting that Oklahoma is one of the most conservative states in the country(religiously, politically) but has one of the highest drop-out rates, one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates and one of the lower median income figures in the country. Go figure.

Blaming this on the school system is moronic.

True indeed!

[The Profit]

The ed board met again today and it was far more cordial. One of the Barresi insulters was gone, the other one was apparently very silent. They even brought in a trooper to make sure things didn't turn ugly this time.

Link (http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=19&articleid=20110224_12_0_OKLAHO84078)

Perhaps it was just because all they seemed to discuss was the impending education funding cut, rather than job appointments. Perhaps it was because they knew it was likely one of the final ed boards under the current format.




Wonder if Fallin sent "her" state trooper to the meeting.

[okie52]

It deosn't matter if a Republican or Democrat holds the Superintendent's office.

Until somebody forces the parents of the 1/3 of students who are perpetual underachievers to be more involved the situation won't get any better.

It is not a school breakdown. It is a parent involvement breakdown.

And don't think you can run off and hide from these lower caste of students.....the courts will not let the public school system do that.

So all of your Republican can point your fingers all you want at the system. It isn't the system, it is the poor social system in this state that starts with the family. And I for one find it very interesting that Oklahoma is one of the most conservative states in the country(religiously, politically) but has one of the highest drop-out rates, one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates and one of the lower median income figures in the country. Go figure.

Blaming this on the school system is moronic.

So throwing money at the problem isn't the answer.

[Sooner_Bob]

So throwing money at the problem isn't the answer.

Not unless that problem is me . . .:D

[badger]

I'm willing to give Barresi a chance to implement new ideas. If they don't work, we can always vote her out.

[47straight]

I'm willing to give Barresi a chance to implement new ideas. If they don't work, we can always vote her out.

Does she get 20-something years like Sandy Garrett?

[badger]

Does she get 20-something years like Sandy Garrett?

i think that type of tenure led to barresi's huge margin of victory

[GKeeper316]

You need to check out Capital Hill, Grant and some of the other inner city high schools.

The difference between good public schools and poor public schools is parenteral involvement.

i was talking curriculum.

it's not the fault of the district if parents dont involve themselves or that the kids dont take advantage of whats offered them because they all think they'll end up rapping on mtv or playing basketball or football.

the variety of classes offered by metro school districts is far superior to that which is offered to kids in rural districts.

[Leroy Lizard]

It deosn't matter if a Republican or Democrat holds the Superintendent's office.

Until somebody forces the parents of the 1/3 of students who are perpetual underachievers to be more involved the situation won't get any better.

It is not a school breakdown. It is a parent involvement breakdown.

And don't think you can run off and hide from these lower caste of students.....the courts will not let the public school system do that.

So all of your Republican can point your fingers all you want at the system. It isn't the system, it is the poor social system in this state that starts with the family. And I for one find it very interesting that Oklahoma is one of the most conservative states in the country(religiously, politically) but has one of the highest drop-out rates, one of the highest teenage pregnancy rates and one of the lower median income figures in the country. Go figure.

Blaming this on the school system is moronic.

Parents by and large are not involved in their kids' education. But that's no excuse for substandard teaching and low test scores. If you teach algebra, then teach the kids algebra. They're right in front of you for an hour each day. You have one hour. In that hour, teach them something.

[Shakadoodoo]

i was talking curriculum.

it's not the fault of the district if parents dont involve themselves or that the kids dont take advantage of whats offered them because they all think they'll end up rapping on mtv or playing basketball or football.

the variety of classes offered by metro school districts is far superior to that which is offered to kids in rural districts.

That is a money issue isn't it? You can not have a wide variety of classes if you don't have the kids to fill the class and/or the money to pay the teachers.

[Shakadoodoo]

Parents by and large are not involved in their kids' education. But that's no excuse for substandard teaching and low test scores. If you teach algebra, then teach the kids algebra. They're right in front of you for an hour each day. You have one hour. In that hour, teach them something.

That is very true if you are assuming that the teacher loves to teach, truly cares about the students and is not there just to get a pay check.

[Leroy Lizard]

That is very true if you are assuming that the teacher loves to teach, truly cares about the students and is not there just to get a pay check.

Then don't blame the parents. That's all I'm saying.

[Shakadoodoo]

Then don't blame the parents. That's all I'm saying.

I think uninvolved parents is a huge issue in the schools..... BUT - that is a constant. You learn this before you do your student teaching, so your point is still valid.

I will add this though.... Many teaches do not feel they get paid enough to do what it really takes to educated kids. Especially when you have no support from their parents.

[Leroy Lizard]

I think uninvolved parents is a huge issue in the schools..... BUT - that is a constant. You learn this before you do your student teaching, so your point is still valid.

I will add this though.... Many teaches do not feel they get paid enough to do what it really takes to educated kids. Especially when you have no support from their parents.

We all think we're underpaid.

[Shakadoodoo]

We all think we're underpaid.

You got that right - Unless your the head football coach.