What's more important - Soul Salvation or Soul Development?

[Shakadoodoo]

I'm doing a paper over this topic and could use some input. Which do you think is more important Soul Salvation or Soul Development. My professor thinks we have wasted 2000 years on Soul Salvation and Blind Faith instead of developing our soul. Me personally - I think they go hand in hand. I'm not here to debate - I just want to see others opinion. It would help me with my paper!

[FirstandGoal]

Just a question to help clarify your question. What parameters are you and your professor using to define salvation and development?

[OUmillenium]

In the end soul salvation is more important, during the process of life soul development is more important.

[JohnnyMack]

What's a soul?

[Caboose]

I'm doing a paper over this topic and could use some input. Which do you think is more important Soul Salvation or Soul Development. My professor thinks we have wasted 2000 years on Soul Salvation and Blind Faith instead of developing our soul. Me personally - I think they go hand in hand. I'm not here to debate - I just want to see others opinion. It would help me with my paper!

What class is this? How is a soul defined?

[dwarthog]

Nothing like getting your homework done on the internet! ;)

[Shakadoodoo]

Just a question to help clarify your question. What parameters are you and your professor using to define salvation and development?


Should people cling to religion and "blind faith" and just believe because someone told you to do so or should you go and search for the truth and develop ones mind to understanding how and why they are what they are.... Like ancient Africans used to say "Know Thy Self, and then you will know God."

[Shakadoodoo]

What's a soul?

I have always thought of it as the electricity/energy in your body that makes you heart pump which can not be created or destroyed.

[Shakadoodoo]

Nothing like getting your homework done on the internet! ;)

I'm just getting input to do the homework but I would not mind finding someone to write the 12 page paper for me! Those damn plagiarism checker have messed everything up.. lol You have to really write your papers now!

[Shakadoodoo]

What class is this? How is a soul defined?

Its a Humanities class - the history of spirituality and religion. I need 10 more hrs to get may masters and it sounded like an interesting class.

[jumperstop]

Ahh the days of writting papers. As a history major I wrote a ton.

[Ike]

I have always thought of it as the electricity/energy in your body that makes you heart pump which can not be created or destroyed.

This makes absolutely no sense.

[SpankyNek]

Are you having to work with the premise that they are mutually exclusive?

For example, are you able to entertain that soul development can still occur after life on earth has expired? (Salvation achieved, development in progress)

or eastern philosophies that only though soul development can salvation (enlightenment) be achieved?

[Shakadoodoo]

This makes absolutely no sense.

Like I said - I'm no here to debate - just get input - There are many definitions for soul - choose the one you like - And if you think there is no such thing as a soul - go with that - It matters none to me - I'm not trying to be right or wrong - just trying to grow - and write this paper.

[NormanPride]

This makes absolutely no sense.

Maybe the quantum state of the neurons in your brain?

[Shakadoodoo]

Are you having to work with the premise that they are mutually exclusive?

For example, are you able to entertain that soul development can still occur after life on earth has expired? (Salvation achieved, development in progress)

or eastern philosophies that only though soul development can salvation (enlightenment) be achieved?

I can write it from what premise I want to but I lean towards "only though soul development can salvation (enlightenment) be achieved"

[Jammin']

Soul Survivor > Soul Development > Soul Salvation


YW.

[JohnnyMack]

Soul Survivor > Soul Development > Soul Salvation


YW.

Soul Calibur FTW!

[AlboSooner]

The go hand in hand, if we are talking about Christianity.

[SpankyNek]

The go hand in hand, if we are talking about Christianity.

Just as a devil's advocate (irony) here...would a Christian philosopher believe he had achieved full development of his soul by merely accepting Christ as his savior (The Christian requirement for Salvation)?

[OhU1]

My paper would be very short: "This assignment begs the question on whether an entity called a soul exists."

I guess I'd run with that as my disclaimer and approach the topic hypothetically. Like I would if I was making an argument for how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. (BTW the answer is 83 if you understand the math).

[Sooner_Bob]

Isn't "V" covering this topic this season?

[AlboSooner]

Just as a devil's advocate (irony) here...would a Christian philosopher believe he had achieved full development of his soul by merely accepting Christ as his savior (The Christian requirement for Salvation)?

I can only speak for my self. Salvation is important, but if the purpose was only to get saved, then God would take away anybody who got saved.

As I read the Bible, salvation is only the starting point, then one progresses in the faith, and in the learning of truths, and in doing good works. That's what I understand by a spiritual development. James 2:26


What is your opinion?

[SpankyNek]

I can only speak for my self. Salvation is important, but if the purpose was only to get saved, then God would take away anybody who got saved.

As I read the Bible, salvation is only the starting point, then one progresses in the faith, and in the learning of truths, and in doing good works. That's what I understand by a spiritual development. James 2:26


What is your opinion?

This is a tough one to try and get out without delving more deeply into some things I really do not care to tackle today, but I believe that they are exclusive of each other in the Christian sense, as there are those that will gain salvation by accepting Christ that have not developed their souls (The man on the cross next to Jesus comes to mid...would his grant of Salvation mean that he had obtained full development of his soul?), also there may be people with more developed souls (the learning of truths, and doing of good works) that may not achieve salvation due to skepticism.

This one is a really tough one, as Philosophy, being part of academia, requires discourse, and discourse is eliminated if one is able to solve all metaphysical and physical argument by merely answering "God".

Interestingly enough, those that answer such questions in this manner have yet to answer "Why is God?"

I think, really, most of us believe because we fear the consequence of not believing if we are wrong, not because we are enlightened. At least if I really put my foot to the fire, this is why I think I believe.

[sooner59]

What's a soul?

That thing in your shoe? ;)

[Leroy Lizard]

Should people cling to religion and "blind faith" and just believe because someone told you to do so or should you go and search for the truth and develop ones mind to understanding how and why they are what they are....

You have already cast the question in loaded terms, so any input by us contrary to your preconceived notions will simply be ignored.

In Africa, they call that a closed mind.

[Leroy Lizard]

Just as a devil's advocate (irony) here...would a Christian philosopher believe he had achieved full development of his soul by merely accepting Christ as his savior (The Christian requirement for Salvation)?

Yes. The very act of seeking salvation is the development of the soul, so the entire argument is bogus.

[Boarder]

My paper would be very short: "This assignment begs the question on whether an entity called a soul exists."


If I were the instructor I'd give you a negative 1000 points for that since you said it "begs the question" rather than it "asks the question."

[Shakadoodoo]

You have already cast the question in loaded terms, so any input by us contrary to your preconceived notions will simply be ignored.

In Africa, they call that a closed mind.

Sounds like you preconceived what my preconceived notions are. In Africa and everywhere else in the world would also call that a closed mind.

The more that I learn, the more I understand I need to learn. The only preconceived notion I have is to read, critically analyze and come with a conclusion which fits (my) reality the closest. And when I do that, at least I hope, my whole circle gets bigger. My sig should give you a hint towards that.

[Leroy Lizard]

Sounds like you preconceived what my preconceived notions are. In Africa and everywhere else in the world would also call that a closed mind.

The more that I learn, the more I understand I need to learn. The only preconceived notion I have is to read, critically analyze and come with a conclusion which fits (my) reality the closest. And when I do that, at least I hope, my whole circle gets bigger. My sig should give you a hint towards that.

You used the word "cling." That is an emotionally loaded word. There is no way you can convince any objective person that using the term "clinging to a belief" isn't a negative casting of religion. It's very clear in the way you cast the question that your mind is made up. A referee for a publication would have tossed your article aside as soon as he read the question.

But then again, if your prof is liberal he'll let it slide.

[Shakadoodoo]

Yes. The very act of seeking salvation is the development of the soul, so the entire argument is bogus.

Are those who say they are seeking salvation really seeking salvation. Or are they just trying to gain acceptance at the time with no real determination to make the life style change it takes to seek the salvation or development they say they "looking" for.

If you say you are Christian and have been saved - but you still do not follow any of the rules - instead that person uses the "I'm not perfect" phrase as a justification - then are you still a Christian. Or are you just trying to gain acceptance?

But if someone is truly seeking salvation - Than I completely agree with you.

[Shakadoodoo]

You used the word "cling." That is an emotionally loaded word. There is no way you can convince any objective person that using the term "clinging to a belief" isn't a negative casting of religion. It's very clear in the way you cast the question that your mind is made up. A referee for a publication would have tossed your article aside as soon as he read the question.

But then again, if your prof is liberal he'll let it slide.

Bad use of words - I agree - I'm not a journalism major. I have not ask my professor if he is a liberal but my preconceived notion would say he is....

[Leroy Lizard]

Bad use of words - I agree - I'm not a journalism major. I have not ask my professor if he is a liberal but my preconceived notion would say he is....

It's not that it's a bad use of words. You used the term "cling to religion" for a reason, and that reason exposes your bias.


Are those who say they are seeking salvation really seeking salvation.

You exposed your bias once again, since you never asked whether those who were developing their souls were really developing them. Why add an additional requirement on one group of people but not the other?

Sorry, but I just don't think you can write this paper objectively.

[JohnnyMack]

It's not that it's a bad use of words. You used the term "cling to religion" for a reason, and that reason exposes your bias.


I'm biased. Religion is silly. The end.

[Ike]

It's not that it's a bad use of words. You used the term "cling to religion" for a reason, and that reason exposes your bias.



You exposed your bias once again, since you never asked whether those who were developing their souls were really developing them. Why add an additional requirement on one group of people but not the other?

Sorry, but I just don't think you can write this paper objectively.

When you are talking about something as ill-defined as a soul, is there anyone anywhere that can write objectively?

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm biased. Religion is silly. The end.

Dear Johnny Mack. We have rejected your paper for publication. The end.

[Leroy Lizard]

When you are talking about something as ill-defined as a soul, is there anyone anywhere that can write objectively?

If he wants to write an editorial, fine. Just don't disguise it as legitimate inquiry.

[Shakadoodoo]

It's not that it's a bad use of words. You used the term "cling to religion" for a reason, and that reason exposes your bias.



You exposed your bias once again, since you never asked whether those who were developing their souls were really developing them. Why add an additional requirement on one group of people but not the other?

Sorry, but I just don't think you can write this paper objectively.

Well, I am sure you are helping be with that - seems impossible to discuss things without prior environmental influence. Can anyone be completely objective? In any case, I am not giving additional requirements to anyone - I think they should all have the same requirements.

If I say I am a crip but I wear red and hang with bloods - am I still a crip? The question was as simple as that - I am not requiring anything - I have no power to do so.

[Shakadoodoo]

If he wants to write an editorial, fine. Just don't disguise it as legitimate inquiry.

If you are speaking about a "belief" system - then it is just that - a Belief - not a Fact. So how could any of it be legitimate inquiry.

[Shakadoodoo]

I'm biased. Religion is silly. The end.

Believing that religion is silly is just as much as a belief as believing that it is not. If your not careful, believing that religion is silly just may end up being your Religion.

[Leroy Lizard]

If you are speaking about a "belief" system - then it is just that - a Belief - not a Fact. So how could any of it be legitimate inquiry.

Then you're writing an editorial. Fine.

[Shakadoodoo]

Then you're writing an editorial. Fine.

You can call it what ever you want. That's fine as well. But I am writing an essay on an elusive subject that is impossible to be completely objective on.

[SicEmBaylor]

Neither.

Sole development is the most important thing for me. A good sole can make all the difference when you're on your feet all day, running/exercising, or simply going about your daily routine. I definitely want to see better sole development to better support my feet.

[MR2-Sooner86]

My professor thinks we have wasted 2000 years on Soul Salvation and Blind Faith instead of developing our soul.

Your professor is already in the wrong here just in the way he comes across. This comes across as just asking, "Is the Christian faith a waste of one's life?" The Greeks, Egyptians, Jews, Pagans, Romans, Persians, Romans, Chinese, Aztecs, Mayans, Native Americans, and others were around longer than 2,000 years. Their religious beliefs were very much apart of their everyday life just like in Christianity. You CANNOT single out just one religion. To think we've been "closed minded" for the past 2,000 years is asinine as man has had religion since he could paint on cave walls.


Now, to the original question, developing the soul or saving it? It's simple, developing the soul is greater than trying to "save" it. If you look throughout human history there has been much waste due to religion.

The Aztecs did human sacrifices because they felt it would keep their gods happy.
The Muslims and the Hebrews are fighting over the same dirt thousands of years later.
The Romans fed Christians to the lions.
Catholics have killed millions of people through the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, non-use of contraception in Africa spreading AIDS, and many other things.
Prohibition and the banning of alcohol was a religious movement.
During the Holocaust Jews were called "Christ Killers" as they were executed.
The Soviet Union trying to enforce atheism onto it's citizens.
Christian groups are trying to ram "Intelligent Design" into the schools.
The people in Waco thought they were doing the will of god and died.

There are others but you get the idea. People spend their lives on a religious belief. Several things mentioned above were different religions so even if one is right, several others were wrong. Several people wasted their lives, killed, and died for nothing.

Another thing, when looking at religion, people do things here in this life thinking it'll affect the afterlife. So, do religion people do good things because they want to or they're afraid they'll get punished if they don't? With that, you can make an argument that atheist are better and morally superior people to religious people.

A great example is the Jonestown Massacre. There people killed themselves thinking they were saving themselves. What was better, to save their soul as they thought or not go through with it and live their life further developing their soul? I think the choice is rather obvious.

[Shakadoodoo]

Your whole team could use some sole development. Then maybe they could score more touchdowns and win a game against us.... instead of OU putting our sole in your behind every year!

[Ike]

Neither.

Sole development is the most important thing for me. A good sole can make all the difference when you're on your feet all day, running/exercising, or simply going about your daily routine. I definitely want to see better sole development to better support my feet.

^^^^^This

However, as populations continue to expand, and more and more nations emerge from the barefooted wilderness, sole salvation is going to play an ever increasing role in society. Shoes are going to be part of the stuff clogging landfills, and recycling the rubber from worn out soles may help provide low cost shoes to the masses...


meh, I got nothin else.

[Boarder]

Neither.

Sole development is the most important thing for me. A good sole can make all the difference when you're on your feet all day, running/exercising, or simply going about your daily routine. I definitely want to see better sole development to better support my feet.
Then how do you explain the new free-running trend? They say that barefoot or minimal sole is better for you overall. And what of the popular Vibram Five-Finger shoes? It's a discussion that will continue, to be sure.

[Leroy Lizard]

Going back...


Which do you think is more important Soul Salvation or Soul Development.

To achieve what?

What's the goal?

If they have different goals, then you cannot compare the two.

[Shakadoodoo]

Your professor is already in the wrong here just in the way he comes across. This comes across as just asking, "Is the Christian faith a waste of one's life?" The Greeks, Egyptians, Jews, Pagans, Romans, Persians, Romans, Chinese, Aztecs, Mayans, Native Americans, and others were around longer than 2,000 years. Their religious beliefs were very much apart of their everyday life just like in Christianity. You CANNOT single out just one religion. To think we've been "closed minded" for the past 2,000 years is asinine as man has had religion since he could paint on cave walls.


Now, to the original question, developing the soul or saving it? It's simple, developing the soul is greater than trying to "save" it. If you look throughout human history there has been much waste due to religion.

The Aztecs did human sacrifices because they felt it would keep their gods happy.
The Muslims and the Hebrews are fighting over the same dirt thousands of years later.
The Romans fed Christians to the lions.
Catholics have killed millions of people through the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, non-use of contraception in Africa spreading AIDS, and many other things.
Prohibition and the banning of alcohol was a religious movement.
During the Holocaust Jews were called "Christ Killers" as they were executed.
The Soviet Union trying to enforce atheism onto it's citizens.
Christian groups are trying to ram "Intelligent Design" into the schools.
The people in Waco thought they were doing the will of god and died.

There are others but you get the idea. People spend their lives on a religious belief. Several things mentioned above were different religions so even if one is right, several others were wrong. Several people wasted their lives, killed, and died for nothing.

Another thing, when looking at religion, people do things here in this life thinking it'll affect the afterlife. So, do religion people do good things because they want to or they're afraid they'll get punished if they don't? With that, you can make an argument that atheist are better and morally superior people to religious people.

A great example is the Jonestown Massacre. There people killed themselves thinking they were saving themselves. What was better, to save their soul as they thought or not go through with it and live their life further developing their soul? I think the choice is rather obvious.

I can feel that.... I would have added manifest destiny in that list as well -Just to make things clear - my professor is not pushing any belief on us and just says it is just his opinion. It would not be smart fo him to try and influence our thoughts since most of us are old opiniated farts and not traditional college students. But I agree - I think that soul development is priority number one and soul salvation will come from that.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I'm biased. Religion is silly. The end.

And yet, any thread that hints of religion as a topic, one is sure to find a JM post. Religion is silly, but I'm obsessed.

[Shakadoodoo]

Going back...



To achieve what?

What's the goal?

If they have different goals, then you cannot compare the two.

I see you keep trying to pull me into deep water. I would suppose the goal to both is the same. What exactly that is in in the eyes of the beholder. But I would be willing to bet that the goal for most is the same rather you believe in soul salvation, soul development, or both.

[JohnnyMack]

And yet, any thread that hints of religion as a topic, one is sure to find a JM post. Religion is silly, but I'm obsessed.

xoxoxo

[Leroy Lizard]

I see you keep trying to pull me into deep water. I would suppose the goal to both is the same. What exactly that is in in the eyes of the beholder. But I would be willing to bet that the goal for most is the same rather you believe in soul salvation, soul development, or both.

So the goal is the same. But then again, the goal for most is the same. But then again, the goal is in the eye of the beholder.

If you don't have the goal in mind, you cannot judge which is more important. What is it that you want each of these to do? You cannot write on the subject without answering this question.

[Shakadoodoo]

So the goal is the same. But then again, the goal for most is the same. But then again, the goal is in the eye of the beholder.

If you don't have the goal in mind, you cannot judge which is more important. What is it that you want each of these to do? You cannot write on the subject without answering this question.

You are trying to get me to define something that is undefinable. What is your goal from soul salvation? soul development? both? or neither? In the end that is all that matters. Me personally, because that is the only goal I can truly define, is to do what I can to make this a better world to live for every organism that lives upon it. "My" goal is not to get to some type of heaven or where ever you are trying to guide this conversation towards. If I do go to a lily white heaven - so be it - if I is a just float as energy, so be it..... if I go nowhere and just rot in the ground - so be it - I personally do not need heaven, 7 virgins, eternal light, whatever..... to be righteous to all people. I just feel that is my God Given responsibility. And that is non objective.... it is my opinion. It could be right just as much as it could be wrong.

But that is just me. Quit insulting my intelligence by attempting to make me define something that we as humans have no idea how to define!

[Blue]

This is a pretty good witness for God. Some message board post...




I cannot, for the life of me, understand why some people think it is the epitome of existence to be in thrall to a "Lord".


subconsciously you already understand as indicated in the way you said it but haven't accepted which is when all would be made clear. The power of Faith is difficult to describe, and like I always say, like trying to describe the color red to one blind from birth.

This is the same problem the Lord had in trying to describe a view that is beyond description. So many things Jesus said to explain the kingdom of God couldn't be understood either... until you accept.

The body is the temple of the Lord is a well known quote yet the interpretation by religion was that it meant the body of the church which in reality is more like a magnifying glass that expands the temple, whereas the temple of the Lord being within the individual, demonstrates that God is within all, always.

Whether you believe or not, whether you accept Jesus or not,
even if you are the devil himself the Lord is still within you for it was He who created all things. He knows all hearts and minds, how many hair are on your head, he even created birds to fly in formation. Everything alive is of God but recognizing Him isn't so much a visual/geographical/empirical quest as it is a spiritual quest.

Religion points to a destination of the after-life when the destination begins with the journey... within. Its a free-will choice because it is and has always been within the mind. The mind fires off neurons all the time, different chemical cocktails for different emotions. Different locations of firings for different thoughts. Math is one area of the brain as are the speech centers, the motor reflex's etc.

The key to salvation is what it is always described as by the churches because they ultimately want the flock to be in the book of life, but the key to being at one with the Lord and ultimately ending up in the book of life ie: salvation, is a neural firing of a chemical cocktail of the most powerful of all emotions. Love.

No man can know the heart for it is a deceitful thing is the quote. We all have had that mistake in our lives of not knowing infatuation from Love. The Love of God leaves no error in judgment because it isn't just some opinion of the mind, it is a real, tangible, self manifesting truth, If we love our wife or our husband we can still be fooled but the Love of God never fools it is that real, that physical - yes physical because it not only mixes that cocktail but it manifests throughout the entire body.

If you were God could you explain it? I'm not God but am taking my best shot and still fall short of the overwhelming nature of the power of Love. I'm not talking orgasm here, but it is similar in that instead of the loins it is in the mind and can manifest throughout the body like goosebumps, chills, the willies, that feeling like you have been touched but with no physical contact. A rapture.

I was Blessed with a fast track to absolute Faith in that after a tragedy I said a silent Prayer. I first said Oh God, I don't know what to Pray. My stepson shot himself in the heart with a 9 mm hollow-point. Nothing I could say or do could ever change things. I was consumed with grief, sorrow, regret, anger, even worry for my wife and he had picked me to find him.

When all these things felt so overwhelming it was either vent or explode I simply said within my mind I Pray for calm and it was answered immediately. It started at the top of my head and felt like a pressure when you go deep. At first I thought I was stroking, it really had me so disconcerted because this was a real physical sensation of pressure starting at the top of my head.

It slowly continued down... the top of my head still felt that pressure and that pressure just spread down until it was at my knees and it was so slow and so controlled and so awesome because by this time I knew it was supernatural and amazing, I was filled... no other way to put it than I was a vessel that had been filled, with all the love, forgiveness, understanding, but most importantly was a clarity of thought. This is the power of Love.

Now so many resist this out of fear of something, I don't know what, being oneself on the Lord's spirit? That is the best way to describe it since it is a natural high, the best high because you never come down from it. Few people have felt this charged for life and out of all the people I have told over the years, in church, friends, acquaintances, on-line, I had only heard of one other person to have felt it. A woman whose husband was in a car wreck and she was driving to the hospital when she too Prayed for calm.

Emotional intensity is a shout to the Lord.

I don't care what people say anymore. I know the Love of God and am not ashamed to shout it from the rooftops. I feel like I have been touched by the hand of God and have never felt such inner strength and understand, i'm a 6 foot man 180 lbs and have always had strength of character but nothing like this. It is the will-power that you gain from this that makes you feel special and not in the power way although that is there, its the power of self... like being me enhanced.

I have had many Prayers answered before and after this as I have always had Faith but never the conviction I feel now.

and it makes me so sad that others will kick and scream, hurl insults and ridicule and basically anything their minds can think of to resist. It isn't logical and yet they say Faith and God isn't logical.

I can forgive them for not loving all as you will when you feel God's love because they don't know love. they never felt Love so don't know how to love ...but will know God's love. It lasts forever.

so you atheists reading this, fly your flags as much as you want it doesn't hurt me in the slightest... it hurts God though and comes that day we all have our dues to pay you will be reminded of just how you rejected His Love for you.

He is jealous and if you knew His gift you would be too if your children turned away. I could give you those usual platitudes like I'll Pray for you but I won't. I rarely Pray for anyone anymore other than those I know are worthy of His Blessing and when you attack like a bunch of wolves don't think the thought doesn't come into my mind to convince you. I won't though. Coming to God through loving His Son is a move you will either make on your own or deny on your own and I won't try to impose my will upon you.

In a way maybe this rather long reply is imposing my will but bottom line it is your choice to make.

And this my friends is where I am led. To prepare you all, whether accepting or not, to come to know the Lord and simply believe or deny. Believe in Jesus because he is now knocking on the door of your heart and if you shut Him out now you might not get another chance. When it hits the fan its going to get rough because the devil will take the kid gloves off and this is what bringing the serpent means... just like lucifer brings Jesus, Ophiuchus is going to force satan out into the open. With the Love of Jesus

This is why Christians are so persecuted by evil, because we have that power of awakening

[SicEmBaylor]

Then how do you explain the new free-running trend? They say that barefoot or minimal sole is better for you overall. And what of the popular Vibram Five-Finger shoes? It's a discussion that will continue, to be sure.

I'm very much opposed. I'm a bit OCD about never ever walking anywhere barefoot much less run on the filthy ground. I'd rather not need a tetanus shot.

[OhU1]

If I were the instructor I'd give you a negative 1000 points for that since you said it "begs the question" rather than it "asks the question."

You have a point this is not "begging the question" since the question itself is not an argument that souls exist assumed in the premise and asserted in the conclusion. I accept your red check mark on my paper ;)

Perhaps a better way to put it for me is: This is a question that cannot be answered reasonably as it presumes something not demonstrated to exist but calls for an affirmative reply regarding that thing. Once you start assuming nonsense, you can answer and prove that nonsense with complete and total rigor but you are still left with nonsense.

[Shakadoodoo]

This is a pretty good witness for God. Some message board post...




I cannot, for the life of me, understand why some people think it is the epitome of existence to be in thrall to a "Lord".


subconsciously you already understand as indicated in the way you said it but haven't accepted which is when all would be made clear. The power of Faith is difficult to describe, and like I always say, like trying to describe the color red to one blind from birth.

This is the same problem the Lord had in trying to describe a view that is beyond description. So many things Jesus said to explain the kingdom of God couldn't be understood either... until you accept.

The body is the temple of the Lord is a well known quote yet the interpretation by religion was that it meant the body of the church which in reality is more like a magnifying glass that expands the temple, whereas the temple of the Lord being within the individual, demonstrates that God is within all, always.

Whether you believe or not, whether you accept Jesus or not,
even if you are the devil himself the Lord is still within you for it was He who created all things. He knows all hearts and minds, how many hair are on your head, he even created birds to fly in formation. Everything alive is of God but recognizing Him isn't so much a visual/geographical/empirical quest as it is a spiritual quest.

Religion points to a destination of the after-life when the destination begins with the journey... within. Its a free-will choice because it is and has always been within the mind. The mind fires off neurons all the time, different chemical cocktails for different emotions. Different locations of firings for different thoughts. Math is one area of the brain as are the speech centers, the motor reflex's etc.

The key to salvation is what it is always described as by the churches because they ultimately want the flock to be in the book of life, but the key to being at one with the Lord and ultimately ending up in the book of life ie: salvation, is a neural firing of a chemical cocktail of the most powerful of all emotions. Love.

No man can know the heart for it is a deceitful thing is the quote. We all have had that mistake in our lives of not knowing infatuation from Love. The Love of God leaves no error in judgment because it isn't just some opinion of the mind, it is a real, tangible, self manifesting truth, If we love our wife or our husband we can still be fooled but the Love of God never fools it is that real, that physical - yes physical because it not only mixes that cocktail but it manifests throughout the entire body.

If you were God could you explain it? I'm not God but am taking my best shot and still fall short of the overwhelming nature of the power of Love. I'm not talking orgasm here, but it is similar in that instead of the loins it is in the mind and can manifest throughout the body like goosebumps, chills, the willies, that feeling like you have been touched but with no physical contact. A rapture.

I was Blessed with a fast track to absolute Faith in that after a tragedy I said a silent Prayer. I first said Oh God, I don't know what to Pray. My stepson shot himself in the heart with a 9 mm hollow-point. Nothing I could say or do could ever change things. I was consumed with grief, sorrow, regret, anger, even worry for my wife and he had picked me to find him.

When all these things felt so overwhelming it was either vent or explode I simply said within my mind I Pray for calm and it was answered immediately. It started at the top of my head and felt like a pressure when you go deep. At first I thought I was stroking, it really had me so disconcerted because this was a real physical sensation of pressure starting at the top of my head.

It slowly continued down... the top of my head still felt that pressure and that pressure just spread down until it was at my knees and it was so slow and so controlled and so awesome because by this time I knew it was supernatural and amazing, I was filled... no other way to put it than I was a vessel that had been filled, with all the love, forgiveness, understanding, but most importantly was a clarity of thought. This is the power of Love.

Now so many resist this out of fear of something, I don't know what, being oneself on the Lord's spirit? That is the best way to describe it since it is a natural high, the best high because you never come down from it. Few people have felt this charged for life and out of all the people I have told over the years, in church, friends, acquaintances, on-line, I had only heard of one other person to have felt it. A woman whose husband was in a car wreck and she was driving to the hospital when she too Prayed for calm.

Emotional intensity is a shout to the Lord.

I don't care what people say anymore. I know the Love of God and am not ashamed to shout it from the rooftops. I feel like I have been touched by the hand of God and have never felt such inner strength and understand, i'm a 6 foot man 180 lbs and have always had strength of character but nothing like this. It is the will-power that you gain from this that makes you feel special and not in the power way although that is there, its the power of self... like being me enhanced.

I have had many Prayers answered before and after this as I have always had Faith but never the conviction I feel now.

and it makes me so sad that others will kick and scream, hurl insults and ridicule and basically anything their minds can think of to resist. It isn't logical and yet they say Faith and God isn't logical.

I can forgive them for not loving all as you will when you feel God's love because they don't know love. they never felt Love so don't know how to love ...but will know God's love. It lasts forever.

so you atheists reading this, fly your flags as much as you want it doesn't hurt me in the slightest... it hurts God though and comes that day we all have our dues to pay you will be reminded of just how you rejected His Love for you.

He is jealous and if you knew His gift you would be too if your children turned away. I could give you those usual platitudes like I'll Pray for you but I won't. I rarely Pray for anyone anymore other than those I know are worthy of His Blessing and when you attack like a bunch of wolves don't think the thought doesn't come into my mind to convince you. I won't though. Coming to God through loving His Son is a move you will either make on your own or deny on your own and I won't try to impose my will upon you.

In a way maybe this rather long reply is imposing my will but bottom line it is your choice to make.

And this my friends is where I am led. To prepare you all, whether accepting or not, to come to know the Lord and simply believe or deny. Believe in Jesus because he is now knocking on the door of your heart and if you shut Him out now you might not get another chance. When it hits the fan its going to get rough because the devil will take the kid gloves off and this is what bringing the serpent means... just like lucifer brings Jesus, Ophiuchus is going to force satan out into the open. With the Love of Jesus

This is why Christians are so persecuted by evil, because we have that power of awakening

Wow... That was a lot - nothing new though. I feel you. Spread the word as you see fit. If that works for you.... DO That! In my opinion "non objective again" I think most people miss the whole moral to the story of Jesus. The goal was not to wait for him or worship him. The goal was to be him, live like him and do Gods work on earth. Rather you believe it is Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, Kristina, Horace, ect, ect..... the principals are the same. Follow the universal principals..... BE! I could care less if you follow a green man on Mars. As long as he/she is teaching the same basic universal principals. I am all for it. Just as long as it is working for the person that believes in it.
The same goes for perfection - what is that? What is perfect to me will not be perfect to the next person. A perfect first date to me is not a perfect first date to the next person. Perfection is in the eyes of the beholder. So imho - perfection can only be reached when one truly knows who they are. KNOW THY SELF and live in balance with all Gods creatures. And even if you do not believe in God - as long as you are following the universal principals - I'm cool with that too!

[SanJoaquinSooner]

What class is this? How is a soul defined?


Not sure anyone gave a definition. I think Euclid said a soul is that which has no part.

[Shakadoodoo]

You have a point this is not "begging the question" since the question itself is not an argument that souls exist assumed in the premise and asserted in the conclusion. I accept your red check mark on my paper ;)

Perhaps a better way to put it for me is: This is a question that cannot be answered reasonably as it presumes something not demonstrated to exist but calls for an affirmative reply regarding that thing. Once you start assuming nonsense, you can answer and prove that nonsense with complete and total rigor but you are still left with nonsense.

So should we just divorce ourselves from the whole discussion or should we keep sifting through the nonsense to try to make sense of it? I do not think it is human nature to just accept something as nonsense/wrong without trying to figure out what is right - even if we never reach that plateau - trying to obtain it will never stop.

[OhU1]

should we keep sifting through the nonsense to try to make sense of it? I do not think it is human nature to just accept something as nonsense/wrong without trying to figure out what is right - even if we never reach that plateau - trying to obtain it will never stop.

I suggest we start by sifting through reality rather than starting with the nonsense and jumping to metaphysical explanations. The history of mankind shows we DO jump to accept "nonsense" to fill the void and have an answer.

By all means we should strive to "figure it all out." In my opinion science and skeptical inquiry is the better method of seeking out what is true. However science is lacking of easy and absolute answers and most people do not find psychological comfort and satisfaction in this. The above being said, philosophical discussion can be fun if nothing else.

[jdsooner]

I think the salvation of the soul (person) and the development of the soul (person) go together. They cannot be separated.

[Shakadoodoo]

I suggest we start by sifting through reality rather than starting with the nonsense and jumping to metaphysical explanations. The history of mankind shows we DO jump to accept "nonsense" to fill the void and have an answer.

By all means we should strive to "figure it all out." In my opinion science and skeptical inquiry is the better method of seeking out what is true. However science is lacking of easy and absolute answers and most people do not find psychological comfort and satisfaction in this. The above being said, philosophical discussion can be fun if nothing else.

I agree. I have a very scientific mind -

But using science to describe spirituality is just as much "nonsense" as anything else. Reality??? What the hell is that? The last thing I read stated that reality can be changed by observing it. Huh???? Without observation - 0 and 1 can be the same - but once something observes it, they act different.... What????? Seems like you are a very smart individual - explain that to me.... - Einstein asked before he died - if we never looked at the moon - does it exist..... That sounds like nonsense as well!

[Leroy Lizard]

I agree. I have a very scientific mind -

But using science to describe spirituality is just as much "nonsense" as anything else. Reality??? What the hell is that? The last thing I read stated that reality can be changed by observing it.

They're talking in terms of quantum theory. In quantum theory, matter has a statistical distribution in terms of its position and motion (actually, momentum). Once you observe matter, you define its possible position so that its location is no longer statistically distributed about a point -- it's located at the point. But this affects the statistical distribution of its momentum as well through the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

IOW, there is no way to observe matter without affecting where it can be and how fast it can be going.

Unfortunately, people try to apply these principles to things they shouldn't.

[AlbqSooner]

My experience as a Christian is the only basis I can have for this answer.

Through AA, which I believe I was led to by God putting people in my life who finally let me see what a raging out of control drunk I was, I began a journey of spiritual development. Soul development, if you will. AA is not a religious program, but a program of spiritual development.

When I first went to AA I heard people talk about God and I did not want to hear it. I was never intellectual enough to be an atheist and I was really not an agnostic because, from my teachings as a youth, I believed that there is a God. For me personally it was of no matter because I figured that the way I had been living for many years of alcoholic drinking and thinking, if God was looking for me it was simply to fry my sorry arse.

Slowly, AA allowed me to develop a sense of spirituality and to no longer cringe at the mention of God. When I reached the point where God felt I was ready, he put someone in my life who encouraged me to return to Church and to accept Christ as my soul salvation.

I came to that point and accepted Christ as my savior and my Lord. According to the Bible, at that moment, I attained soul salvation. However, having come to know and accept God, I began to thirst for more knowledge of what being a Christian meant. I read more, listened more, prayed more, shared my experience with others more, and continue to do so.

Hence, it is my experience that only through soul development was I able to attain soul salvation. It is further my experience that having attained soul salvation I became more focused on attaining further soul development.

This does not answer the question of which is more important, but it should give you a few synaptic firings to assist you in attempting to write a paper describing the color red to a person blind from birth.

[Leroy Lizard]

I was never pseudo-intellectual enough to be an atheist and I was really not an agnostic because, from my teachings as a youth, I believed that there is a God.

FIFY

[Shakadoodoo]

My experience as a Christian is the only basis I can have for this answer.

Through AA, which I believe I was led to by God putting people in my life who finally let me see what a raging out of control drunk I was, I began a journey of spiritual development. Soul development, if you will. AA is not a religious program, but a program of spiritual development.

When I first went to AA I heard people talk about God and I did not want to hear it. I was never intellectual enough to be an atheist and I was really not an agnostic because, from my teachings as a youth, I believed that there is a God. For me personally it was of no matter because I figured that the way I had been living for many years of alcoholic drinking and thinking, if God was looking for me it was simply to fry my sorry arse.

Slowly, AA allowed me to develop a sense of spirituality and to no longer cringe at the mention of God. When I reached the point where God felt I was ready, he put someone in my life who encouraged me to return to Church and to accept Christ as my soul salvation.

I came to that point and accepted Christ as my savior and my Lord. According to the Bible, at that moment, I attained soul salvation. However, having come to know and accept God, I began to thirst for more knowledge of what being a Christian meant. I read more, listened more, prayed more, shared my experience with others more, and continue to do so.

Hence, it is my experience that only through soul development was I able to attain soul salvation. It is further my experience that having attained soul salvation I became more focused on attaining further soul development.

This does not answer the question of which is more important, but it should give you a few synaptic firings to assist you in attempting to write a paper describing the color red to a person blind from birth.

Thats good stuff right there! That inspires me!

[A Sooner in Texas]

I think salvation in and of itself - with the sole (hahaha) intention of going to heaven - is pretty simple, but is that even going to get you into heaven (if you believe in it)? You can say you accept Christ and even be baptized, but all that is just show if you don't follow through with the actions and words of someone truly trying to emulate Christ.
Soul salvation to me is rather empty without soul development. In fact, I don't know how you really can have the first without the second. Kinda like what AlbQSooner was saying.

[Blue]

I think salvation in and of itself - with the sole (hahaha) intention of going to heaven - is pretty simple, but is that even going to get you into heaven (if you believe in it)? You can say you accept Christ and even be baptized, but all that is just show if you don't follow through with the actions and words of someone truly trying to emulate Christ.
Soul salvation to me is rather empty without soul development. In fact, I don't know how you really can have the first without the second. Kinda like what AlbQSooner was saying.

Most Christians believe once you accept Christ and receive the Holy Spirit, you really have no say in it. You will be sanctified over time by the Spirit.

It's been true in my life and I have a long ways to go.

Edit: But doing Gods will is a fruit of the spirit.

[Shakadoodoo]

They're talking in terms of quantum theory. In quantum theory, matter has a statistical distribution in terms of its position and motion (actually, momentum). Once you observe matter, you define its possible position so that its location is no longer statistically distributed about a point -- it's located at the point. But this affects the statistical distribution of its momentum as well through the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

IOW, there is no way to observe matter without affecting where it can be and how fast it can be going.

Unfortunately, people try to apply these principles to things they shouldn't.

You are very smart - but I knew that - sometimes it is hard to read through the sarcasm without getting emotional. Tell me more - I could understand the way you explained that - I'm still lost but I'm thirsty for more. I have an insatiable lust for knowledge! I messed around and googeled more info and ran across "Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea" by Charles Seife - wow - damn internet - to much information to digest - I'm going to pick that book up tomorrow!!!!

[FirstandGoal]

My experience as a Christian is the only basis I can have for this answer.

Through AA, which I believe I was led to by God putting people in my life who finally let me see what a raging out of control drunk I was, I began a journey of spiritual development. Soul development, if you will. AA is not a religious program, but a program of spiritual development.

When I first went to AA I heard people talk about God and I did not want to hear it. I was never intellectual enough to be an atheist and I was really not an agnostic because, from my teachings as a youth, I believed that there is a God. For me personally it was of no matter because I figured that the way I had been living for many years of alcoholic drinking and thinking, if God was looking for me it was simply to fry my sorry arse.

Slowly, AA allowed me to develop a sense of spirituality and to no longer cringe at the mention of God. When I reached the point where God felt I was ready, he put someone in my life who encouraged me to return to Church and to accept Christ as my soul salvation.

I came to that point and accepted Christ as my savior and my Lord. According to the Bible, at that moment, I attained soul salvation. However, having come to know and accept God, I began to thirst for more knowledge of what being a Christian meant. I read more, listened more, prayed more, shared my experience with others more, and continue to do so.

Hence, it is my experience that only through soul development was I able to attain soul salvation. It is further my experience that having attained soul salvation I became more focused on attaining further soul development.

This does not answer the question of which is more important, but it should give you a few synaptic firings to assist you in attempting to write a paper describing the color red to a person blind from birth.


^^^^^^^^^^ times infinity

When this thread was first posted, I had no time for a deep response as I was running late for work, but oddly enough I found myself thinking of this on my drive back home tonight and came up with some thoughts.

There are about as many paths to Christ as there are followers. Each of us has our own story, our own unique set of circumstances and our own bumpy roads that led us to the same point on the map. The reason I like to think of salvation in reference to a point on the map is because it is a convergence where everyone from any starting point can end up in the same point. However, this point is not necessarily the end of the journey.... its more of a place on a map where all points converge and then spread back out again as we live our lives.
I like to think of the salvation point as the starting place, and then developing as a process. That's not to say that developing my soul didn't start from the time I was born though. Even though I was not always saved, I was still developing and turning into the person who eventually found salvation. Now that person continues to learn and develop and will do so until the day she dies. The thought that I am the best I can possibly be at this point in time is quite frankly a depressing thought because I know I can do better than this.

[Leroy Lizard]

You are very smart - but I knew that

Well, then you're ready for Lesson 2: Feynman path integrals. :D

In reality, you have to study advanced physics thoroughly to understand such stuff. Relatively speaking, I'm an amateur at it.

[SoonerStud615]

(I'm operating in the parameters of Christianity)
Salvation is a process, through which soul developing occurs. The most common way of describing it is with three terms: Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.

Justification is the moment you are converted.
Sanctification is the process by which one exhibits the fruits of the spirit and becomes more Christ-like, through the work of the Holy Spirit.
Glorification is the ultimate perfecting on man in all ways at the time of Jesus' return.

Thus, Sanctification, which is generally the same as soul developing, occurs after conversion until the point of death in the life of a believer.

[AlbqSooner]

I think salvation in and of itself - with the sole (hahaha) intention of going to heaven - is pretty simple, but is that even going to get you into heaven (if you believe in it)? You can say you accept Christ and even be baptized, but all that is just show if you don't follow through with the actions and words of someone truly trying to emulate Christ.

I think this is what the Bible is saying when it talks in terms of 'faith without works'.

[Ike]

You are very smart - but I knew that - sometimes it is hard to read through the sarcasm without getting emotional. Tell me more - I could understand the way you explained that - I'm still lost but I'm thirsty for more. I have an insatiable lust for knowledge! I messed around and googeled more info and ran across "Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea" by Charles Seife - wow - damn internet - to much information to digest - I'm going to pick that book up tomorrow!!!!

If you actually want to know more about quantum mechanics, go check out this book:

http://dogphysics.com/book_info.html
http://dogphysics.com/med_cover_draft_atom.jpg

seriously. It's a good read for the quantum illiterate.

[Aldebaran]

I have always thought of it as the electricity/energy in your body that makes you heart pump which can not be created or destroyed.

I'm pretty sure that's the Keebler Elves.

[soonerbrat]

What's a soul?

it's the bottom of your foot.

[JohnnyMack]

I'm an amateur at it.

Really? There's something you don't know everything about? Who knew?