Pope: You Don't Have The Right To Get Married

[sooner59]

Yeah, ok. :rolleyes:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110122/ap_on_re_eu/eu_vatican_marriage


VATICAN CITY – Pope Benedict XVI told priests Saturday to do a better job counseling would-be spouses to ensure their marriages last and said no one has an absolute right to a wedding.

Benedict made the comments in his annual speech to the Roman Rota, the Vatican tribunal that decides marriage annulments. An annulment is the process by which the church effectively declares that a marriage never took place.

Benedict acknowledged that the problems that would allow for a marriage to be annulled cannot always be identified beforehand. But he said better pre-marriage counseling, which the Catholic Church requires of the faithful, could help avoid a "vicious circle" of invalid marriages.

He said the right to a church wedding requires that the bride and groom intend to celebrate and live the marriage truthfully and authentically.

"No one can make a claim to the right to a nuptial ceremony," he said.

Benedict has used his annual speech to the Rota to impress on its members the indissolubility of marriage and that they should avoid the temptation of granting annulments on a whim. Last year, he urged the tribunal to work harder to encourage couples to stay together and not confuse "pastoral charity" with the need to uphold church law.

On Saturday, Benedict said priests had an important pastoral job to discern whether would-be spouses are prepared and able to enter into a valid marriage.

"The church and society at large place too much importance on the good of marriage and the family founded on it to not make a profound commitment to it pastorally," Benedict said.

The Vatican's concern about marriage annulments is largely directed at the United States, which in 2006 had more annulment cases launched than the rest of the world combined.

[Leroy Lizard]

Marriage, or ceremony?

I don't see anything untoward about his comments.

[sooner59]

Far be it from me to question Catholic priests in the area of moral standards. Surely those who are associated with child molestation are capable of deciding who should and should not be married in their buildings.

[Leroy Lizard]

Far be it from me to question Catholic priests in the area of moral standards. Surely those who are associated with child molestation are capable of decided who should and should not be married in their buildings.

Even child molesters have a right to an opinion. ;)


I'm no big fan of the Catholic Church, but they certainly have the right to demand commitment from those they marry in their ceremonies.

Right?

[MamaMia]

Couples should get their premarital counseling from the Protestant ministers, since they are all so innocent and Jesus like.

[Leroy Lizard]

Couples should get their premarital counseling from the Protestant ministers, since they are all so innocent and Jesus like.

Protestantism isn't based on perfection.

[sooner59]

Basically everyone who decides to get married (unless they are drunk in Vegas) typically plan on commitment. Sad truth is....it doesn't always work out. And sometimes people stick with it when they shouldn't and there are even worse consequences. Any couple with problems should try at every length to resolve them. In some cases that isn't possible and it is best for both parties to cut their losses. Some disagree. Many (who have been through it) will agree. My parents got divorced when I was around 4-5 years old. My step-dad is the reason I turned out as well as I have. My real father has done nothing but lie and let me down over the years. Circumstances dictate the right decision.

[Leroy Lizard]

Basically everyone who decides to get married (unless they are drunk in Vegas) typically plan on commitment. Sad truth is....it doesn't always work out. And sometimes people stick with it when they shouldn't and there are even worse consequences. Any couple with problems should try at every length to resolve them. In some cases that isn't possible and it is best for both parties to cut their losses. Some disagree. Many (who have been through it) will agree. My parents got divorced when I was around 4-5 years old. My step-dad is the reason I turned out as well as I have. My real father has done nothing but lie and let me down over the years. Circumstances dictate the right decision.

This is all fine, and I don't think many would disagree. Not sure how this meshes with the article, though.

[sooner59]

It doesn't. I got off on a rant. :D

Night folks!

[King Barry's Back]

Far be it from me to question Catholic priests in the area of moral standards. Surely those who are associated with child molestation are capable of deciding who should and should not be married in their buildings.

Just FYI -- No study has ever been conducted to compare incidences of child sexual abuse by profession.

So, do Catholic priests abuse children more often than Protestant ministers? We don't know.

Do Catholic priests abuse children more often than truck drivers or football coaches or middle school principals? We don't know.

[sooner59]

True, I should have said "priests" in general. But you would expect far more from your minister than a truck driver. They are supposed to be the representatives of their respective religions which teach morals. If you can't trust them, then who can you trust? I was just saying its a little sketchy to tell people their shouldn't be married and can't have the ceremony in their building, which for all we know, is the same building they molest children in. Trust and respect is something a priest has to earn from me, because I have know reason to believe they have my best interest at heart simply due to their position in the church.

[olevetonahill]

Their churches, Their organization, Their rules.
None of MY business ;)

[FirstandGoal]

I find it hard to get upset with this article and this comes from someone who has 3 ex-husbands.

Do I wish that back in the day someone would have tried to counsel me and my soon-to-be more? Honestly, it would not have made a difference. I won't go into all of the details, but each time had its own unique circumstances and all of the counseling in the world at that time would not have made a difference in the final decision. Each time I was committed to making it work out, but that's not how it ended up.

The only thing I do have a problem with is the Church's definition of "valid marriage"
I was legally married every time which means that even though I'm no longer married now, that doesn't make it invalid at the time.

[sooner59]

I wasn't really upset with it. I just think its hypocritical.

[SoonerJack]

Couples should get their premarital counseling from the Protestant ministers, since they are all so innocent and Jesus like.

Necessary? no

Tacky? Yes

[FirstandGoal]

Not so sure about hypocritical really. I've just always found the catholic church to be a bit out of touch with reality at times.
The biggest problem I have is that a group of men who never have and never plan on being married (because by the very nature of their chosen profession CANNOT be married) are the ones who insist that they are the marriage experts and that if more people would just listen to them marriages that were previously "invalid" would start to become more valid because they stay together no matter the cost.

Easy for someone who has never walked the walk to talk the talk, ya know?

[OUthunder]

Their churches, Their organization, Their rules.
None of MY business ;)

Exactly and it doesn't concern me.

[Leroy Lizard]

Not so sure about hypocritical really. I've just always found the catholic church to be a bit out of touch with reality at times.
The biggest problem I have is that a group of men who never have and never plan on being married (because by the very nature of their chosen profession CANNOT be married) are the ones who insist that they are the marriage experts and that if more people would just listen to them marriages that were previously "invalid" would start to become more valid because they stay together no matter the cost.

Easy for someone who has never walked the walk to talk the talk, ya know?

This thread has more logical fallacies than then the entire front page combined.

So let's settle a few things here:

1. They are not insisting that train wreck marriages stay intact. They are saying that they don't want to perform marriage ceremonies that will likely to turn out to be train wrecks.

2. Not all priests are child molesters.

3. A person does not have to be married to counsel on marriage no more than a drug counselor has to be an addict.

4. The Catholic Church is not saying that people should be prevented from being able to marry if they wish; the Church simply doesn't want to perform the ceremony if they don't think the bride and groom are adequately committed.

It takes a lot of bull**** to make me side with the Catholic Church, so congratulations.

[GKeeper316]

Protestantism isn't based on perfection.

it is actually.

look at christian methodism for your example.

america's christians have held to largely puritanical beliefs since the mayflower.

[Leroy Lizard]

it is actually.

It is not. I know of no Protestants that will claim they are perfect and like Jesus.

[47straight]

Far be it from me to question Catholic priests in the area of moral standards. Surely those who are associated with child molestation are capable of deciding who should and should not be married in their buildings.


Wow. All priests are pretty much child molesters, huh?

You root for OU right? So you and Eric Thundander are pretty much the same guy, right? You sicko perv.

[soonercruiser]

Their churches, Their organization, Their rules.
None of MY business ;)

You go old man!
THAT is the bottom line!

[sooner59]

Wow. All priests are pretty much child molesters, huh?

You root for OU right? So you and Eric Thundander are pretty much the same guy, right? You sicko perv.

Never said all priests were child molesters. I said they were associated with it. Doesn't condemn all of them. Most aren't. I just personally don't trust them any more than the guy that runs the gas station down the street until I really get to know them. If the priest that denied you a ceremony in his church had been someone you had known well, that's one thing. If it is just some random guy that you don't know and thinks your marriage won't work, then I question them. They could be right. Its just subjective.

I would rather just get married outside somewhere nice, anyway.

[2121Sooner]

You give enough money to the Catholic Church and you can do just about anything.


Ask Martin Luther.......if he werent dead of course

[47straight]

Never said all priests were child molesters. I said they were associated with it. Doesn't condemn all of them. Most aren't. I just personally don't trust them any more than the guy that runs the gas station down the street until I really get to know them. If the priest that denied you a ceremony in his church had been someone you had known well, that's one thing. If it is just some random guy that you don't know and thinks your marriage won't work, then I question them. They could be right. Its just subjective.

I would rather just get married outside somewhere nice, anyway.

For all I know you and Eric Thunader used to swap advice on your activities.

[OUthunder]

For all I know you and Eric Thunader used to swap advice on your activities.

:gary:

[sooner59]

Hell, the only thing that irked me was basically one quote by the Pope.


"No one can make a claim to the right to a nuptial ceremony," he said.

I just remember hearing about over 200 cases of molestation in church divisions he presided over before becoming Pope. He didn't really do anything about it other than relocate and reassign the priests. Then he becomes Pope and tells people they don't have the "right" to a nuptial ceremony? Yep, the Pope is a real winner. Not a fan.

[2121Sooner]

Wow. All priests are pretty much child molesters, huh?

You root for OU right? So you and Eric Thundander are pretty much the same guy, right? You sicko perv.

There are a lot of amazing priests in the churches. That doesnt absolve the church of trying to sweep what happened under the carpet so nobody ever found out. It makes all the phenomenal priests that are serving God and his word guilty by association by the failings of the Vatican to take care of the problem before it becam an epidemic.

When it first came out there were meetings and someone came up with a "one strike and you're out" idea and it was voted down. Like yeah, we cant kick out a guy for f'ing just one kid. maybe we move em to a parish without so many hot kids.

It makes it hard for the priests doing a great job to work under the suspicions and worries due to nothing they did, but something their boss, The Vatican, allowed to happen.

[sooner59]

For all I know you and Eric Thunader used to swap advice on your activities.

Well, if you got to know me, you probably wouldn't feel that way. See how it is easy not to trust people if you don't know them personally?

[2121Sooner]

Well, if you got to know me, you probably wouldn't feel that way. See how it is easy not to trust people if you don't know them personally?

WHAT?!?!?! You mean you really arent in real life you are on this board?!?!?!

HOLY SHEET!!!!

I thought everyone was the same in real life as they are on here.

[sooner59]

There are a lot of amazing priests in the churches. That doesnt absolve the church of trying to sweep what happened under the carpet so nobody ever found out. It makes all the phenomenal priests that are serving God and his word guilty by association by the failings of the Vatican to take care of the problem before it becam an epidemic.

When it first came out there were meetings and someone came up with a "one strike and you're out" idea and it was voted down. Like yeah, we cant kick out a guy for f'ing just one kid. maybe we move em to a parish without so many hot kids.

It makes it hard for the priests doing a great job to work under the suspicions and worries due to nothing they did, but something their boss, The Vatican, allowed to happen.

This was the point I was trying to get across. I personally know priests and the ones I know are great men. The ones that I don't know, I am skeptical about....just like I am skeptical about teachers, coaches, police officers, accountants, and fast food employees. Pretty much anybody. The world teaches you to be cautiously optimistic about humanity. You want to trust everyone, but every day there things that happen that make you question others' intentions. And it is getting worse. Pretty sad really.

[2121Sooner]

This was the point I was trying to get across. I personally know priests and the ones I know are great men. The ones that I don't know, I am skeptical about....just like I am skeptical about teachers, coaches, police officers, accountants, and fast food employees. Pretty much anybody. The world teaches you to be cautiously optimistic about humanity. You want to trust everyone, but every day there things that happen that make you question others' intentions. And it is getting worse. Pretty sad really.

Unless you are part of the posse or some other sort of group on here you will never get your point across.

Oh well.


Carry on

[sooner59]

Read my sig. Posse member. Still can't get my point across. Posting on Vet's site hasn't gotten me any street cred around here. :D

[Leroy Lizard]

I just remember hearing about over 200 cases of molestation in church divisions he presided over before becoming Pope. He didn't really do anything about it other than relocate and reassign the priests. Then he becomes Pope and tells people they don't have the "right" to a nuptial ceremony?

That's right, because whether or not the Pope handled the child molestation problem has no bearing on whether anyone can get a nuptial marriage ceremony.

IOW, just because he blew it in one area doesn't make it open season to attack all the traditions of the Church.

[Leroy Lizard]

There are a lot of amazing priests in the churches. That doesnt absolve the church of trying to sweep what happened under the carpet so nobody ever found out. It makes all the phenomenal priests that are serving God and his word guilty by association by the failings of the Vatican to take care of the problem before it becam an epidemic.

No, one can only be guilty for what they have done. If I'm a player on the USC team, I am not guilty by association for what Bush did. If I'm a cop on the beat, I am not guilty by association for any corruption on part of the leadership.

It's just a justification for stereotyping.

[sooner59]

I didn't attack all traditions Leroy. I attacked two. Judging who deserves your blessing for marriage and molesting children. :rolleyes:

[yermom]

sounds like a preemptive shot at teh gheys to me

[sooner59]

Threadjacker! :D

[Leroy Lizard]

I didn't attack all traditions Leroy. I attacked two.

The next time you might try this **** they call logic.

[yermom]

i don't care what the pope says, it's the government making that decision that is dumb

[sooner59]

The next time you might try this **** they call logic.

If you would have been using logic, you would have known I didn't attack everything the Church stands for like you insinuated. Bravo.

[47straight]

This was the point I was trying to get across. I personally know priests and the ones I know are great men. The ones that I don't know, I am skeptical about....just like I am skeptical about teachers, coaches, police officers, accountants, and fast food employees. Pretty much anybody. The world teaches you to be cautiously optimistic about humanity. You want to trust everyone, but every day there things that happen that make you question others' intentions. And it is getting worse. Pretty sad really.

My uncle is skeptical about black people because a black guy broke into his house once. You guys would obviously get along.

[sooner59]

For ****'s sake. I link an article and say "Yeah, ok" to a quote that I thought sounded dumb given their history of fallacy. Then I have to listen to page after page of Leroy breaking down every post. I'd like to stay and argue, but I have **** to do....apparently unlike Leroy.

[sooner59]

My uncle is skeptical about black people because a black guy broke into his house once. You guys would obviously get along.

I am skeptical of black people. I am also equally skeptical of white people. As well as every other person on Earth. Like I said....cautiously optimistic. I'd like to believe everyone is a saint, but life teaches you otherwise.

[47straight]

For ****'s sake. I link an article and "Yeah, ok" to a quote that I thought sounded dumb given their history of fallacy. Then I have to listen to page after page of Leroy breaking down every post. I'd like to stay and argue, but I have **** to do....apparently unlike Leroy.


And then you said that you pretty much have to assume that all priests are molesters and that any church is a crime scene.

Yeah, you've got **** to do. Who's next on the defamation list?

[47straight]

I am skeptical of black people. I am also equally skeptical of white people. As well as every other person on Earth. Like I said....cautiously optimistic. I'd like to believe everyone is a saint, but life teaches you otherwise.

I'd like to believe that there aren't bigots out there, but then you open your mouth.

[sooner59]

And then you said that you pretty much have to assume that all priests are molesters and that any church is a crime scene.

Yeah, you've got **** to do. Who's next on the defamation list?

I didn't say that. Let it the **** go. I said they have become associated with the it over the years. And that you should assume as much from them as anyone else in any other profession. Just because you disagree and got ****ed off, doesn't mean you have to accuse me of saying things that I didn't. My family's church is awesome. I have known the pastor my whole life. He is my friend's dad. Great guy. The church is Southern Baptist and full of great people. I know that because I have seen it first hand. I am skeptical of all people I am not familiar with until they give me reason to believe I shouldn't be. I try not to be gullible or naive because I have seen too many people taken advantage of or wronged.

[2121Sooner]

No, one can only be guilty for what they have done. If I'm a player on the USC team, I am not guilty by association for what Bush did. If I'm a cop on the beat, I am not guilty by association for any corruption on part of the leadership.

It's just a justification for stereotyping.

Really?

What bowl game did you play in this year? Cause USC was 8-5 which would qualify you for a bowl game.

[Blue]

I'd like to believe that there aren't bigots out there, but then you open your mouth.

Overreact much?

[2121Sooner]

I'd like to believe that there aren't bigots out there, but then you open your mouth.

You're an idiot

[sooner59]

I'd like to believe that there aren't bigots out there, but then you open your mouth.

Bigot? Against whom? I have befriended people from basically every ethnicity have I have been around. My stepmom and one of my best friends are black. Some of my best friends are Indian, Honduran, Korean, causasian, Mexican, South African, Ghanaian, etc.

I love it when someone takes offense to something, twists it into something it isn't then accuses people of being bigots. :rolleyes:

[2121Sooner]

Bigot? Against whom? I have befriended people from basically every ethnicity have I have been around. My stepmom and one of my best friends are black. Some of my best friends are Indian, Honduran, Korean, causasian, Mexican, South African, Ghanaian, etc.

I love it when someone takes offense to something, twists it into something it isn't then accuses people of being bigots. :rolleyes:

That is because they are the first person when they are around their buddies to make a joke about a N***** or a spick and then joke about it.

But they get on here and get on their high horse

"Oh.....But some of my best friends are black and mexicans"
- 47straight


What a dooshbag.....

[olevetonahill]

WHAT?!?!?! You mean you really arent in real life you are on this board?!?!?!

HOLY SHEET!!!!

I thought everyone was the same in real life as they are on here.

I am, and really dont give a **** if Yall like it er not :P

[olevetonahill]

Bigot? Against whom? I have befriended people from basically every ethnicity have I have been around. My stepmom and one of my best friends are black. Some of my best friends are Indian, Honduran, Korean, causasian, Mexican, South African, Ghanaian, etc.

I love it when someone takes offense to something, twists it into something it isn't then accuses people of being bigots. :rolleyes:

47 sounds like hes a Catholic. Thats ok, Hey 47 Call me a Bigot cause I hate Messicans, Catholics, Irish,Blacks, Hell I pretty much ****in hate everyone. Dont really matter what color ner believe they are v.

Now back the Catholics.

Have you read any History on em?
It aint purty.Playing with the little boys, Helping Hitler , Killing heretics,witches and such
Give me a break.

[47straight]

Bigot? Against whom? I have befriended people from basically every ethnicity have I have been around. My stepmom and one of my best friends are black. Some of my best friends are Indian, Honduran, Korean, causasian, Mexican, South African, Ghanaian, etc.

I love it when someone takes offense to something, twists it into something it isn't then accuses people of being bigots. :rolleyes:

I'm done.

[47straight]

47 sounds like hes a Catholic. Thats ok, Hey 47 Call me a Bigot cause I hate Messicans, Catholics, Irish,Blacks, Hell I pretty much ****in hate everyone. Dont really matter what color ner believe they are v.

Now back the Catholics.

Have you read any History on em?
It aint purty.Playing with the little boys, Helping Hitler , Killing heretics,witches and such
Give me a break.

Not falling for your trolling. If I did I'd pop off about how I hated veterans because the US Army had done so many terrible things to so many people through the years. But then I'd be using sooner59 logic.

[GKeeper316]

It is not. I know of no Protestants that will claim they are perfect and like Jesus.

it's the aspiration of perfection that drives all christian dogma.

[Sooner_Bob]

it's the aspiration of perfection that drives all christian dogma.

I disagree . . . if that was the case we're all screwed.

[1890MilesToNorman]

I am completely committed to my beloved Jisumbell Furbush, we have nightly ceremonies to commencer ate our union.

[IndySooner]

It is not. I know of no Protestants that will claim they are perfect and like Jesus.

I know of no Catholics, including Clergy, who think this way. You talked about other people being factually wrong before, but yours is the most factually wrong statement in this entire thread.

[IndySooner]

Never said all priests were child molesters. I said they were associated with it. Doesn't condemn all of them. Most aren't. I just personally don't trust them any more than the guy that runs the gas station down the street until I really get to know them. If the priest that denied you a ceremony in his church had been someone you had known well, that's one thing. If it is just some random guy that you don't know and thinks your marriage won't work, then I question them. They could be right. Its just subjective.

I would rather just get married outside somewhere nice, anyway.

I don't trust ANYONE until I get to know them. It doesn't matter if it's a Priest, minister, doctor, etc. We should be able to, but unfortunately, they're all human.

[IndySooner]

I didn't say that. Let it the **** go. I said they have become associated with the it over the years. And that you should assume as much from them as anyone else in any other profession. Just because you disagree and got ****ed off, doesn't mean you have to accuse me of saying things that I didn't. My family's church is awesome. I have known the pastor my whole life. He is my friend's dad. Great guy. The church is Southern Baptist and full of great people. I know that because I have seen it first hand. I am skeptical of all people I am not familiar with until they give me reason to believe I shouldn't be. I try not to be gullible or naive because I have seen too many people taken advantage of or wronged.

You're Southern Baptist and bashing Catholics.

/thread

[IndySooner]

47 sounds like hes a Catholic. Thats ok, Hey 47 Call me a Bigot cause I hate Messicans, Catholics, Irish,Blacks, Hell I pretty much ****in hate everyone. Dont really matter what color ner believe they are v.

Now back the Catholics.

Have you read any History on em?
It aint purty.Playing with the little boys, Helping Hitler , Killing heretics,witches and such
Give me a break.

The Catholic Church certainly has a dark history. There's no doubt about it. Again, when something is run by humans, it's bound to have all kinds of issues. All churches have their own issues.

Religion, in general, has been the cause for every single war in the history of this world.

[IndySooner]

I've commented on specific posts, but now I'll make my general statement.

It seems that I may be the only person in this thread that has gone through a Catholic wedding and knows what the counseling and marriage prep is all about.

Let me debunk a few things:

1. Priests don't do the counseling in most cases. Everyone I have heard of has been assigned a married couple who helped them through the process and did the counseling. Our couple sucked. We felt like we got very little out of it.

2. The Catholic Church has its faults. The way this Pope (and frankly, those preceding that had knowledge of what was going on) handled the molestation is absolutely wrong. This Pope will not be remembered fondly by the masses, but the one thing he is really doing well is getting us back to the basics. One of those basics is screening couples who want to be married in the Church. Frankly, they don't tell you that you can't get married, you just can't get married in the Church.

3. I've known hundreds of couples who have gone through pre-marriage counseling. Everyone's given something to work on. I've never seen anyone get turned down. That includes pregnancies, living together before marriage and frankly, some mis-matched couples that didn't last. So, to say that the Church is being unreasonable is just not right.

There's no reason for this to be connected to the molestation. None. And frankly, the Protestants do a really good job of bashing the Catholic Church when it comes to molestation, but there haven't been any studies on what goes on in the other denominations. I would venture to guess that the percentages are the same. It happens in all walks of life. Doctors, teachers, and yes, Clergy.

[yermom]

the reason they are singled out is because they covered it up as an institution, and it was proven.

it doesn't help that priests have that vow of celibacy. that's not even from the Bible is it?

[Leroy Lizard]

Really?

What bowl game did you play in this year? Cause USC was 8-5 which would qualify you for a bowl game.

That doesn't make the players guilty.

[yermom]

they were punished like they were...

[Leroy Lizard]

it's the aspiration of perfection that drives all christian dogma.

No, it's the aspiration to be forgiven.

[Leroy Lizard]

I know of no Catholics, including Clergy, who think this way.

Yeah, and?



You talked about other people being factually wrong before, but yours is the most factually wrong statement in this entire thread.

wtf? :confused:

[Leroy Lizard]

Religion, in general, has been the cause for every single war in the history of this world.

Not even close.

[2121Sooner]

That doesn't make the players guilty.

I didnt say that. But they are paying for the sins of of the people that came before them.



Kinda like the priests........

[IndySooner]

Not even close.

Name one. Every single one starts with religion.

[IndySooner]

the reason they are singled out is because they covered it up as an institution, and it was proven.

it doesn't help that priests have that vow of celibacy. that's not even from the Bible is it?

What does being in the Bible have to do with anything? It doesn't have to be in the Bible for the Church to decide that it's the best thing for their Clergy to have a clear mind.

That said, I think it's out of touch and I believe Priests should be able to marry the same way I think there should be female Priests and birth control is a good thing.

[IndySooner]

Yeah, and?




wtf? :confused:

You're inferring that Catholicism is based on perfection. It's not. It's based on forgiveness of sin. Sin that EVERYONE commits.

[Leroy Lizard]

Name one. Every single one starts with religion.

Viet Nam.

The Korean War

World War II

World War I

Russo-Finnish War

American Civil War

The Soviet Union didn't invade Afghanistan because it had religious differences with the Afghanis.

The Spanish Civil War was not caused by religious differences.

[Leroy Lizard]

You're inferring that Catholicism is based on perfection.

Oh, horse-****! I never said anything of the sort, nor did I imply it. Another poster made the claim that Protestantism was based on perfection, and I simply disagreed. Go back and read the posts if you don't believe me.

[IndySooner]

Viet Nam.

The Korean War

World War II

World War I

Russo-Finnish War

American Civil War

The Soviet Union didn't invade Afghanistan because it had religious differences with the Afghanis.

The Spanish Civil War was not caused by religious differences.

Don't have time to look the rest up, but I know off the top of my head that both World Wars had a LOT to do with religion.

[Leroy Lizard]

I didnt say that. But they are paying for the sins of of the people that came before them.

Criminy, here is what you said:


There are a lot of amazing priests in the churches. That doesnt absolve the church of trying to sweep what happened under the carpet so nobody ever found out. It makes all the phenomenal priests that are serving God and his word guilty by association by the failings of the Vatican to take care of the problem before it becam an epidemic.

These priests are maybe associated with the molestations in that they belong to the same institutions as the molesters, but they are not guilty by association.

[2121Sooner]

Guilty until proven innocent in my books Leroy.

[3rdgensooner]

Unless you are part of the posse or some other sort of group on here you will never get your point across.

It does feel that way sometimes.

[Leroy Lizard]

Don't have time to look the rest up, but I know off the top of my head that both World Wars had a LOT to do with religion.

Oh, so you are already backtracking off your statement. You said that religion CAUSED the wars; now you're saying that religion had a lot do with them. (Which really isn't true.)

Hitler was not a religious person, although he felt that Germany was destined for greatness and that he was the best person to carry out the job. Stalin was definitely not religious.

Japan's quest for oil in the East wasn't driven by religion, but rather by economics. The U.S. didn't oppose this expansionism on religious grounds.

Certainly WWI was not based on religion.

[Leroy Lizard]

Guilty until proven innocent in my books Leroy.

Once cornered, you're now turning to irrationality.

You made a dumb statement and got called on it. Why not just admit it? It beats posting inane comments like "guilty until proven innocent."

[yermom]

Oh, so you are already backtracking off your statement. You said that religion CAUSED the wars; now you're saying that religion had a lot do with them. (Which really isn't true.)

Hitler was not a religious person, although he felt that Germany was destined for greatness and that he was the best person to carry out the job. Stalin was definitely not religious.

Japan's quest for oil in the East wasn't driven by religion, but rather by economics. The U.S. didn't oppose this expansionism on religious grounds.

Certainly WWI was not based on religion.

it's certainly a good way to motivate people to fight though. it's a lot easier to kill someone for their resources if they pray to a different pretend benefactor in the sky

[IndySooner]

Oh, so you are already backtracking off your statement. You said that religion CAUSED the wars; now you're saying that religion had a lot do with them. (Which really isn't true.)

Hitler was not a religious person, although he felt that Germany was destined for greatness and that he was the best person to carry out the job. Stalin was definitely not religious.

Japan's quest for oil in the East wasn't driven by religion, but rather by economics. The U.S. didn't oppose this expansionism on religious grounds.

Certainly WWI was not based on religion.

Yep. That one society that Hitler strived for, including only white Christians, had nothing to do with religion. Eradication of the Jews had nothing to do with religion.

I'm not going to argue this with you because it is hijacking a thread. Frankly, this entire thread is based on bias and misinformation and I think you and I both agree on that.

[Leroy Lizard]

it's certainly a good way to motivate people to fight though. it's a lot easier to kill someone for their resources if they pray to a different pretend benefactor in the sky

As history has proven, it isn't necessary. Nationalist instincts can be just as strong, and in this century have proven to be even stronger. Atheistic political groups have shown to be quite capable of extreme violence and barbaric treatment.

[Leroy Lizard]

Yep. That one society that Hitler strived for, including only white Christians, had nothing to do with religion. Eradication of the Jews had nothing to do with religion.

WWII was not caused by the Holocaust. Hitler didn't invade Russia because of anything Jewish or Christian.

Sorry, but you're dead wrong on this issue.

[2121Sooner]

Once cornered, you're now turning to irrationality.

You made a dumb statement and got called on it. Why not just admit it? It beats posting inane comments like "guilty until proven innocent."

You got me Leroy

I admit it. +1 for you Leroy. Good job.

[OhU1]

As history has proven, it isn't necessary. Nationalist instincts can be just as strong, and in this century have proven to be even stronger.

I agree with LeRoy. Nationalism is a quasi religion in my opinion and a motivator of much conflict around the world. But to cite religion as THE cause of all wars is a claim that needs to be demonstrated with evidence - evidence that I don't believe exists to support the claim. There are a lot of agendas and rationales for war - the pursuit of resources and power probably being the primary.

[GKeeper316]

it doesn't help that priests have that vow of celibacy. that's not even from the Bible is it?

it was the king of spain that demanded his priests be celibate and poor sometime in the 16th century. the vatican adopted it formally about a hundred years later. before then priests had wives and families.

[JohnnyMack]

WWII was not caused by the Holocaust. Hitler didn't invade Russia because of anything Jewish or Christian.

Sorry, but you're dead wrong on this issue.

Wow. You're on a semi-logical roll today. Good jorb.

[olevetonahill]

Not falling for your trolling. If I did I'd pop off about how I hated veterans because the US Army had done so many terrible things to so many people through the years. But then I'd be using sooner59 logic.

Aint trollin, Cause i DGAS what ya think.

[sooner59]

You're Southern Baptist and bashing Catholics.

/thread

I'll end my comments on this thread with this. Indy, thanks for explaining your views on the subject in a rational manner. I would like to point out that I am not, in fact, Southern Baptist. That is my parents' church. I just happen to know the pastor personally, and I have gone with them a few times to make them happy. That is as much Southern Baptism as I have been involved with. My parents only began going there in the last few years. And I haven't been a part of a Catholic wedding, but I have been to some. Many of my friends and former coaches (who I deeply respected) are Catholic.

I have nothing against Catholicism or Catholics in general. The history of the Church speaks for itself. But that is just that...history. Today, the molestation cases gave them a black eye. That is not why I started the thread, even though it ended up going that direction. I just rolled my eyes at one person saying that people didn't have the right to a nuptial ceremony. Fine, their church, their rules. I rolled my eyes because because of the way it sounded to me coming from someone with a sketchy history. If anybody wants to bash me for being anti-Catholic, fine, but you are way off base.

If I bash on any person or group, its because there was a reason....something they did. Not because I am bigoted against any race, religion, gender, or ethnicity. I am the same way about trusting people. I trust everyone the same amount....very little....until I am given a reason to trust them. That's all.

[IndySooner]

I'll end my comments on this thread with this. Indy, thanks for explaining your views on the subject in a rational manner. I would like to point out that I am not, in fact, Southern Baptist. That is my parents' church. I just happen to know the pastor personally, and I have gone with them a few times to make them happy. That is as much Southern Baptism as I have been involved with. My parents only began going there in the last few years. And I haven't been a part of a Catholic wedding, but I have been to some. Many of my friends and former coaches (who I deeply respected) are Catholic.

I have nothing against Catholicism or Catholics in general. The history of the Church speaks for itself. But that is just that...history. Today, the molestation cases gave them a black eye. That is not why I started the thread, even though it ended up going that direction. I just rolled my eyes at one person saying that people didn't have the right to a nuptial ceremony. Fine, their church, their rules. I rolled my eyes because because of the way it sounded to me coming from someone with a sketchy history. If anybody wants to bash me for being anti-Catholic, fine, but you are way off base.

If I bash on any person or group, its because there was a reason....something they did. Not because I am bigoted against any race, religion, gender, or ethnicity. I am the same way about trusting people. I trust everyone the same amount....very little....until I am given a reason to trust them. That's all.

Fair enough.

I don't trust Priests until I get to know them. I've met enough bad Priests (under five) in my life that I know that they're not all good people. I certainly don't raise my kids to be all-trusting of Priests. They're strangers until you really know them, and at that point, they become acquaintances. They are rarely your "friend", though I do have a couple of Priest friends.

In other words, I don't treat Priests any differently than anyone else in my life, because they're humans and they sin.

[Leroy Lizard]

it was the king of spain that demanded his priests be celibate and poor sometime in the 16th century. the vatican adopted it formally about a hundred years later. before then priests had wives and families.

Celibacy was adopted because it was a good idea, at least at that time. I think the Catholic Church needs to change its stance, as the priesthood is now becoming for some a haven for closet homosexuals and child molesters.

I understand why they want celibacy, but it simply isn't working out.

[2121Sooner]

Celibacy was adopted because it was a good idea, at least at that time. I think the Catholic Church needs to change its stance, as the priesthood is now becoming for some a haven for closet homosexuals and child molesters.

I understand why they want celibacy, but it simply isn't working out.


olevet wishes your mom practiced celibacy

[Bourbon St Sooner]

I'll end my comments on this thread with this. Indy, thanks for explaining your views on the subject in a rational manner. I would like to point out that I am not, in fact, Southern Baptist. That is my parents' church. I just happen to know the pastor personally, and I have gone with them a few times to make them happy. That is as much Southern Baptism as I have been involved with. My parents only began going there in the last few years. And I haven't been a part of a Catholic wedding, but I have been to some. Many of my friends and former coaches (who I deeply respected) are Catholic.

I have nothing against Catholicism or Catholics in general. The history of the Church speaks for itself. But that is just that...history. Today, the molestation cases gave them a black eye. That is not why I started the thread, even though it ended up going that direction. I just rolled my eyes at one person saying that people didn't have the right to a nuptial ceremony. Fine, their church, their rules. I rolled my eyes because because of the way it sounded to me coming from someone with a sketchy history. If anybody wants to bash me for being anti-Catholic, fine, but you are way off base.

If I bash on any person or group, its because there was a reason....something they did. Not because I am bigoted against any race, religion, gender, or ethnicity. I am the same way about trusting people. I trust everyone the same amount....very little....until I am given a reason to trust them. That's all.

I appreciate your opinion on the matter. Just a couple of things, 1) Marriage is one of the 7 sacraments of the Church so it's something they take pretty seriously, 2) No matter what transgressions the Church may have had, giving moral decrees is kind of what they do.

[The Profit]

I don't think a pope has the right to say who and who cannot get married, and especially this pope. This guy has proven not to give a damn about the children of his flock. When he was Cardinal Ratsinger, he was the church official primarily responsible for transferring perverted priests to countries, where they could be hidden from charges and allowed to continue their abuse.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

The Pope has some say so on who gets married in the Catholic Church. Getting married in a Catholic Church isn't as simple as paying your fee and showing up at the altar. They make you do classes and retreats and ****.

[47straight]

I don't think a pope has the right to say who and who cannot get married, and especially this pope. This guy has proven not to give a damn about the children of his flock. When he was Cardinal Ratsinger, he was the church official primarily responsible for transferring perverted priests to countries, where they could be hidden from charges and allowed to continue their abuse.

Wow.

[Leroy Lizard]

olevet wishes your mom practiced celibacy

That sucked.

[Leroy Lizard]

I don't think a pope has the right to say who and who cannot get married....

For the umpteenth time, he's not.

[2121Sooner]

That sucked.

It certainly didnt suck.


carry on.

[olevetonahill]

olevet wishes your mom practiced celibacy

Naw she shoulda just swallowed.

[The Profit]

For the umpteenth time, he's not.




Okay, then please allow me to broaden the scope. I don't think this particular pope has the right to tell anyone anything. How is that?

[Leroy Lizard]

deleted

[Leroy Lizard]

Naw she shoulda just swallowed.

This coming from the same guy who got bent out of shape for someone talking about his kids.

[olevetonahill]

This coming from the same guy who got bent out of shape for someone talking about his kids.

**** off dip ****, If you cant tell the diff. between talking about yer kids versus talking about you:rolleyes:

[2121Sooner]

**** off dip ****, If you cant tell the diff. between talking about yer kids versus talking about you:rolleyes:

or his mom......

[MR2-Sooner86]

Not all Catholic priest play the "touch game" with children. It's sad the backlash the church is getting. I'm sick of all the crap people are spewing and it's borderline hate speech. I mean 99% of priest are making the other 1% look bad and it's just not fair.

[MamaMia]

I didn't say that. Let it the **** go. I said they have become associated with the it over the years. And that you should assume as much from them as anyone else in any other profession. Just because you disagree and got ****ed off, doesn't mean you have to accuse me of saying things that I didn't. My family's church is awesome. I have known the pastor my whole life. He is my friend's dad. Great guy. The church is Southern Baptist and full of great people. I know that because I have seen it first hand. I am skeptical of all people I am not familiar with until they give me reason to believe I shouldn't be. I try not to be gullible or naive because I have seen too many people taken advantage of or wronged.http://www.reformation.com/CSA/baptistsabuse.html

[Leroy Lizard]

Not all Catholic priest play the "touch game" with children. It's sad the backlash the church is getting. I'm sick of all the crap people are spewing and it's borderline hate speech. I mean 99% of priest are making the other 1% look bad and it's just not fair.

I see what you did there.

[MamaMia]

http://www.reformation.com/index.html

There you go...Take your pick off hundreds of protestant preachers who other people "thought" were great guys, only to find out that they were anything but. If I were stranded on a dirt road 20 miles from civilization in 100 degree heat with no water, and 4 men pulled up at the same time to rescue me; one wearing a Texaco star, one wearing a hard hat, one wearing a vestment and one wearing orange, I would get in the car with the priest.

[SicEmBaylor]

The Catholics creep me out.

[MamaMia]

The Catholics creep me out.You creep them out too.

[yermom]

http://www.reformation.com/index.html

There you go...Take your pick off hundreds of protestant preachers who other people "thought" were great guys, only to find out that they were anything but. If I were stranded on a dirt road 20 miles from civilization in 100 degree heat with no water, and 4 men pulled up at the same time to rescue me; one wearing a Texaco star, one wearing a hard hat, one wearing a vestment and one wearing orange, I would get in the car with the priest.

i don't think you are their target demographic ;)

[pphilfran]

http://www.reformation.com/index.html

There you go...Take your pick off hundreds of protestant preachers who other people "thought" were great guys, only to find out that they were anything but. If I were stranded on a dirt road 20 miles from civilization in 100 degree heat with no water, and 4 men pulled up at the same time to rescue me; one wearing a Texaco star, one wearing a hard hat, one wearing a vestment and one wearing orange, I would get in the car with the priest.

Let's see....there are about 600,000 clergy in the US...how do you feel about the 599,162 that are not on the list?

[stoopified]

Makes sense to me.....but I'm not Catholic

[FirstandGoal]

http://www.reformation.com/index.html

There you go...Take your pick off hundreds of protestant preachers who other people "thought" were great guys, only to find out that they were anything but. If I were stranded on a dirt road 20 miles from civilization in 100 degree heat with no water, and 4 men pulled up at the same time to rescue me; one wearing a Texaco star, one wearing a hard hat, one wearing a vestment and one wearing orange, I would get in the car with the priest.

So you got stranded on a dirt road and found the Village People?

[TheHumanAlphabet]

IIRC, marriage is a sacrament and thus very much along the lines of monitoring by the Pope. As a sacrament, not everyone is entitled to the sacrament. Getting married, go to the judge, getting married in the church with a mass a bigger deal... I may not have it all correct, so someone from the Catholic faith chime in. I am Lutheran, we can have a church marriage with or without communion, Mrs. THA and I had communion which made it more closer to God and the church for us.

[The Profit]

http://www.reformation.com/index.html

There you go...Take your pick off hundreds of protestant preachers who other people "thought" were great guys, only to find out that they were anything but. If I were stranded on a dirt road 20 miles from civilization in 100 degree heat with no water, and 4 men pulled up at the same time to rescue me; one wearing a Texaco star, one wearing a hard hat, one wearing a vestment and one wearing orange, I would get in the car with the priest.




I'm Presbyterian. With only 19 reported perverted molesters, we are well below average.

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm Presbyterian. With only 19 reported perverted molesters, we are well below average.

So is the Catholic Church in the lead for the Fulmer Prize for Religion?

[Scott D]

You people are arguing this?

Marriage isn't a right, it's a privilege. That's where people have gone wrong. Driving isn't a right, it's a privilege, along with a great deal of other things that people seem to have seriously lost focus on.

[MamaMia]

You people are arguing this?

Marriage isn't a right, it's a privilege. That's where people have gone wrong. Driving isn't a right, it's a privilege, along with a great deal of other things that people seem to have seriously lost focus on.Yeah...like health insurance. :P

[MamaMia]

How was that for a thread jack? :D