Runner not down when on a defender: Your thoughts?

[achiro]

Obviously happened last night but has happened several times before. Before anyone says I'm a sore loser I want to say that the toughest part of last nights game was who I wanted to lose. I hate Oregon and I can't stand the SEC so there's that.
So I personally think the runner should be down. The defender has done his job by pulling the runner down. If another defender comes in at full speed and drills the runner while he is sitting there(think of Murray sitting there on the defender in the bowl game) they will more than likely get penalized. It makes it very tough on the defense in that situation. I understand that you play until the whistle blows but I guess I'm still trying to decide if the whistle should blow.
So tell me why I'm wrong. :D

[sooner518]

Disagree. The knee being down is concrete and not really up to a ref's discretion. Why give the refs an arbitrary decision to make?

[EatLeadCommie]

Well I think that's where you get into forward progress, which can make a play dead even if the runner isn't down. It was a weird play last night and one you don't see often, but the whistle didn't blow. Play through it. Agree that it kind of stinks that such a fluky play determined the outcome, but those are the breaks. Auburn was still the better team in the end.

[instigator]

Disagree. The knee being down is concrete and not really up to a ref's discretion. Why give the refs an arbitrary decision to make?

^This

This can be replayed if necessary and should be clear 99$ of the time. I don't want a downed player to be a judgement call. If the defender isn't sure, then he better hang on until he hears a whistle.

I heard someone argue that this is stopping forward progress, but the player is usually still moving.

[meoveryouxinfinity]

I mostly agree but the technicality of that would be hard. It's easier to define and call a runner down the way the rule is written now.

[cleller]

Disagree. Might have given Oregon a shot at OT.

[Mad Dog Madsen]

Why is this even a thread??? The knee or elbow has to touch the ground for a player to be down. Simple as that. If he rolls over another players body and a knee/elbow doesn't touch, he's good to go.

[ocsooner]

We would have been agreeing more if DM would have gotten the same call.

I like calls like that, because it rewards the players who are paying attention and listening. Don't stop untill you hear the whistle. All the defenders stopped, and they were wrong.

I almost like the rule in the NFL better - if you fall down and hit the ground and no defenders touch you, get up and keep running...

I also liked that the schmuks think they were cheated, and auburn will get stripped of the nc. It's a win-win.

[Soonerfan88]

I also liked that the schmuks think they were cheated, and auburn will get stripped of the nc. It's a win-win.

Absolutely the best outcome of the game. :D

[soonergirlNeugene]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were also considered down if the back of the hand or forearm touched. Been up studying all night so I'm a little bleary but I seem to remember hearing about that one sometime this season.

[Aries]

The defender has not done his job until he gets the runner to the ground, based on the definition of "contacting the ground". The replays confirmed in my mind that the runner was not down, so I'm not sure how you'd argue that the defender did his job.

If another defender comes in and drills him, he cannot be penalized for a late hit unless the whistle has blown. Spearing, leading with the helmet, etc. are possibilities, but different issues. Late hit can only be called after the whistle.

[5noubus]

When there is 3 tacklers hugging a receiver why is the whistle blown? No knee or elbow down ? I think the " on the defender rule" should be a pro rule only. And I didn't really care who won:)

[btb916]

Why is this even a thread??? The knee or elbow has to touch the ground for a player to be down. Simple as that. If he rolls over another players body and a knee/elbow doesn't touch, he's good to go.

It's a good thread and he has a good point IMO. Think about it from the perspective of a defensive back or a linebacker...when everyone stops, you don't go full bore and hit people. It's being drilled into their heads. Imagine if you thought the whistle didn't blow, but it actually did, and you drilled him.

15 yards and an earful by your coach. But here, the whistle actually didn't blow, but almost everyone stopped. How comfortable would you be as a defender in hitting him again before he started moving?

So I think it was the right call in that the rule is clear, but I think a different rule should be considered to benefit the defenders in this type of situation. But since this doesn't happen often, there will probably be no change and maybe that's fine. But I don't think what happened is fair in light of how skittish defenders are to hit people now.

[btb916]

Late hit can only be called after the whistle.

No kidding. The point is sometimes guys don't hear the whistle even when it blows. It does get pretty loud in there. In that instant when everyone is stopped, the defenders would usually do best to assume the whistle blew, even if they didn't hear it. Sometimes the whistle comes late, as well.

[SoonerMarkVA]

The play last night in particular, the defender could have wrapped him up and rolled him. Play over. If nothing else, he could have wrapped him up until he heard a whistle. If the guy hadn't been able to roll off of him and stand right up, they would have blown the play dead. The defender made a foolish assumption and Oregon paid for it.

I will say, though, that the extension of the personal fouls on unnecessary roughness have probably caused some hesitation in these defenders. They're probably conditioned not to fly in and deck the guy when he was basically standing there looking around.

Anyway, I'm fine with the rule as long as forward motion isn't stopped. If it's stopped, and the defender is still keeping the runner's knee or forearm/back of wrist from touching, then it should be blown dead immediately.

[Jacie]

I kind of like it that the play went as it did. It is the closest they've experienced being jobbed out of a game since you-know-when.

It was also interesting to see them react to Auburn players' dirty play (and they thought USC was bad), not the face-mask-that-wasn't but when Fairley shoved James head down while sitting on him after a play (he did get flagged) and that duck defensive back who kept getting his helmet messed with till his face got ripped. Quacks wanted this game bad but were surprised at how physical Auburn played em. Maybe their should have been more unsportsmanlike conduct calls but if the refs didn't see em then it didn't happen.

[winout]

Wouldn't have mattered. AU might have had to kick a 34 instead of a 14 yarder.

[LRoss]

My thoughts:

1) The call was clearly correct as according to the current rule.

2) I don't think it had any effect on the outcome. Auburn gets their field goal regardless.

3) I don't like the rule. If you're on your back on another player that's laying on the ground, I think the rule should consider the play alive. Especially with situations with big piles (where it seems like the rule is inconsistently/selectively applied) I think it makes things LESS arbitrary for the officials, as well as just sort of being intuitive.

Just my opinion, of course.

[texaspokieokie]

there was a play early in the game that i don't understand. i probly saw it wrong.

newton was stopped on a 3rd down (i think,doesn't matter) play & the ball came out. looked like a fumble, but must've been called an "incomplete pass".

if it was "incomplete", looked like "intentional grounding". announcers didn't mention it.

as noted above, i probly saw it wrong. did anybody else notice it ???

[soonercastor]

Runner not down when on a defender: Your thoughts?

That sounds kinda gay.

[Boomer.....]

there was a play early in the game that i don't understand. i probly saw it wrong.

newton was stopped on a 3rd down (i think,doesn't matter) play & the ball came out. looked like a fumble, but must've been called an "incomplete pass".

if it was "incomplete", looked like "intentional grounding". announcers didn't mention it.

as noted above, i probly saw it wrong. did anybody else notice it ???

I saw that also. I was wondering why no one said anything when the ball got loose.

[SoonerNutt]

I have no sympathy for the ducks, but I get the argument that a defender might be afraid to risk penalty by hitting a player who is just standing there.

I wouldn't mind something akin to forward progress that states if a runner has conceded, then the play is stopped. Had the RB just hopped up and started running, someone would have hit him, and everything would have been OK. But since he just stood there for a few seconds, obviously believing the play was over, it puts the defense in an awkward position of having to weigh the pros and cons of risking a 15 yard penalty for tackling a defenseless guy. The refs should be allowed to blow the whistle in that situation, simply to protect a defensless player from being lit up.

BTW, for those who think this is some kind of sweet justice for what happened to OU in Eugene, think again. The refs at least got the call right last night. The dirty BS that went on up there is in no way similar to what happened last night. I am glad UO didn't get a BCS championship, but lady Karma has something bigger in mind for the ducks.

[BoulderSooner79]

It's a quirky situation and doesn't happen that often, but the problem is coming up with a clear definition of "down" in that situation. I tend to a agree that if a player rolls over another player with his backside down, he should be called down because there is no way he could continue w/o the help of the defender propping him up. But if his front side is down, he could have stayed up w/o the defender by putting a hand down. But I can't think of a clear and simple way to describe the rule, so I think it should stay the way it is. Replay helps since it can be confirmed that only feet and hands touched the ground.

[BoulderSooner79]

there was a play early in the game that i don't understand. i probly saw it wrong.

newton was stopped on a 3rd down (i think,doesn't matter) play & the ball came out. looked like a fumble, but must've been called an "incomplete pass".

if it was "incomplete", looked like "intentional grounding". announcers didn't mention it.

as noted above, i probly saw it wrong. did anybody else notice it ???

It looked like a blown call to me. Newton tried to throw it away and the defender hit his arm. I thought the ball traveled backwards and should have been considered a fumble or lateral, but was blown dead. But since it wasn't OU, I didn't study it carefully in order to get mad :)

[texaspokieokie]

It looked like a blown call to me. Newton tried to throw it away and the defender hit his arm. I thought the ball traveled backwards and should have been considered a fumble or lateral, but was blown dead. But since it wasn't OU, I didn't study it carefully in order to get mad :)

me too. i didn't care, just curious.

[SpankyNek]

While Brent and Herbie spent all of the replay time discussing whether or not Dyers knee was down on the play, they were oblivious (I guess) to looking at the RBs forearm, which was a far closer call, IMO.

I don't think it would have been overturned, as it looks pretty inconclusive from the angle on this vid. How far past the wrist does one have to go to declare it as forearm?

ewC5O80sUYU

[BoulderSooner79]

While Brent and Herbie spent all of the replay time discussing whether or not Dyers knee was down on the play, they were oblivious (I guess) to looking at the RBs forearm, which was a far closer call, IMO.

I don't think it would have been overturned, as it looks pretty inconclusive from the angle on this vid. How far past the wrist does one have to go to declare it as forearm?

ewC5O80sUYU

I agree - it was an extremely close call and it could be argued the runner's wrist touched which would have been down. But I have to agree with the replay guys to not overturn it (I'm pretty sure they didn't "confirm"). A similar thing happened in one of the NFL games but it was the back of the hand to player used since he had the ball in that hand and thus was ruled he used his wrist. You could see in this play the hand/wrist were flattened out and then he propped it up to just the hand. The refs are told to err on the side of letting the play go because of replay and it created a very tough replay situation. Just part of the game.

[trueou]

Is my memory bad? I thought Finch scored a touchdown for us this year when he rolled over on a defender. Can't remember the game but I seem to recall the event.

[soonerboomer93]

While Brent and Herbie spent all of the replay time discussing whether or not Dyers knee was down on the play, they were oblivious (I guess) to looking at the RBs forearm, which was a far closer call, IMO.

I don't think it would have been overturned, as it looks pretty inconclusive from the angle on this vid. How far past the wrist does one have to go to declare it as forearm?


As I recall from watching other replays, it's the entrie forearm (not just part of it) that has to be down.

Hmm, yeah, they should have looked alot closer at the left forearm (maybe they did in the official replay booth, just not in the espn replay)

[KantoSooner]

Is my memory bad? I thought Finch scored a touchdown for us this year when he rolled over on a defender. Can't remember the game but I seem to recall the event.

Ding ding ding! I think I'll be a purist on this point and demand a knee, elbow, etc be down. With Finch running for us for the next few years, that would seem a prudent position to take.

He's going to be slithering through pile ups and I want him to have full opportunity to run over piles and keep on going.

[stoopified]

Forearm was on the ground,he was DOWN

[Soonerfan88]

Forearm was on the ground,he was DOWN

This is what I thought.

[pphilfran]

It puts the defender in a possible no win situation...

Should the defender pile into a player that looks to be down to insure that he is down and be in a position to have a 15 yarder called against him?

Should the defender not pile into a player (like last night) and allow the runner to get up and continue the play?


In the end it is all about the refs whistle...you don't hear it you go after the runner...

[BoulderSooner79]

As I recall from watching other replays, it's the entrie forearm (not just part of it) that has to be down.

Hmm, yeah, they should have looked alot closer at the left forearm (maybe they did in the official replay booth, just not in the espn replay)

Doesn't have to be the entire forearm - even just the wrist is down.

I think the booth took a long look while Brent/Herbie were blabbin'. Look at what was at stake. I can't argue with either the ref or the replay booth either way they called it. It was very close.

[BoulderSooner79]

Is my memory bad? I thought Finch scored a touchdown for us this year when he rolled over on a defender. Can't remember the game but I seem to recall the event.

My memory may be bad too. But I though on the Finch play, he was hit and bounced off a defender in mid-air and came down his feet and put one hand down. He didn't roll over a defender that was laying on the ground and there was no issue about the play still being live. Just a slightly different situation.

[achiro]

In the end it is all about the refs whistle...you don't hear it you go after the runner...
Bob?

[2121Sooner]

And if the referee doesnt take out the Auburn player on that 4th down play, all of this doesnt even happen.

That was a classic take down by the ref..........see.........they are always trying to help Oregon. HAHAHA!!!

[EatLeadCommie]

People are thinking of that Arkansas play where his wrist was ruled down...he was down there because the ball was in the same hand. The runner has the right to balance himself with his off hand that is free of the ball, and that is what happened with the Auburn player.

[soonergirlNeugene]

Ok, that makes more sense. Wasn't saying we should call the commissioner or anything, was mostly asking for future reference. I don't suppose anyone knows where to look up this sort of thing?

[AlboSooner]

College needs to adopt the NFL rule: down by contact, not down by just falling down. You see a guy wide open, yet the slips and he is down. Let the defense make a play, not the grass.

[btb916]

I have no sympathy for the ducks, but I get the argument that a defender might be afraid to risk penalty by hitting a player who is just standing there.

I wouldn't mind something akin to forward progress that states if a runner has conceded, then the play is stopped. Had the RB just hopped up and started running, someone would have hit him, and everything would have been OK. But since he just stood there for a few seconds, obviously believing the play was over, it puts the defense in an awkward position of having to weigh the pros and cons of risking a 15 yard penalty for tackling a defenseless guy. The refs should be allowed to blow the whistle in that situation, simply to protect a defensless player from being lit up.

BTW, for those who think this is some kind of sweet justice for what happened to OU in Eugene, think again. The refs at least got the call right last night. The dirty BS that went on up there is in no way similar to what happened last night. I am glad UO didn't get a BCS championship, but lady Karma has something bigger in mind for the ducks.

I think you put it a lot better than I did and I agree with you except I have no ill will towards the Ducks :)

[soonergirlNeugene]

That was a classic take down by the ref....

Still doesn't quite top this classic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2F3VI1kQgA) though. Clearly the refs have fallen off their game the last couple years.

[2121Sooner]

Still doesn't quite top this classic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2F3VI1kQgA) though. Clearly the refs have fallen off their game the last couple years.



ok, that really made me chuckle. He dropped the shoulder into him and everything.

And the QB went down after getting hit by an old man. I would have hated to been watching film when that play came up. :)

[jkjsooner]

i think this is a good point and something that needs to be discussed. before replay officials generally blowed these plays dead.

it does put the defense in a terrible position. you say play until the whistle but i guarantee you if a guy goes down and then gets drilled by a defensive player, they're going to call it a personal foul even if the whistle was a little late. the defense has no choice but to hold off for a second.

[Okie35]

Learn to form tackle not get ran over and try to arm tackle, period. Oregon had some small defenders.

[bluedogok]

If another defender comes in and drills him, he cannot be penalized for a late hit unless the whistle has blown. Spearing, leading with the helmet, etc. are possibilities, but different issues. Late hit can only be called after the whistle.
It still doesn't keep some from throwing a flag because in their judgment the hit was late. The officials have created an environment where in that situation you are damned if you hit him or damned if you don't. Making players apprehensive can also make them vulnerable to injury.

[SoonerOX]

Disagree. The knee being down is concrete and not really up to a ref's discretion. Why give the refs an arbitrary decision to make?

Agree with this take. The referees shouldn't be able to call it however they see it on that particular evening with reckless abandon. The knee being down is and should always be the standard.

[oudavid1]

If Oregon knew how to tackle this wouldnt be a thread.

[OU_Sooners75]

if the runners forward momentum is completely stopped, he is down.

If a knee touches he is down.

if at least the forearm of the arm carrying the ball touches the ground, the runner is down.

In the play you are talking about, the defender did not do his job...it is his job to make a tackle by the very definition...he did not do that.

He did not make his knee, his forearm touch the ground, nor did he stop his forward progress.

He was not down....good call by the officials.

[SoonerOX]

i think this is a good point and something that needs to be discussed. before replay officials generally blowed these plays dead.

it does put the defense in a terrible position. you say play until the whistle but i guarantee you if a guy goes down and then gets drilled by a defensive player, they're going to call it a personal foul even if the whistle was a little late. the defense has no choice but to hold off for a second.

You have a good point as well. But I would argue that if the runner has to play until the whistle, then so does the defense. You can't just let a guy get back up and run for another 20 yards. No whistle, then drill the ****er.

[Sooner_Tuf]

Play til the whistle blows. It was good advice in grade school and it still works today.

[CowboyMRW]

On the Dyer run that was in question, I thought his wrist hit, and in the Arkansas-tfOSU game the wrist was enough to put him down. The two runs were eerily similiar looking imo. 1 was called down and the other was not

[winout]

As a runner you know if part of your body other than your hand or foot touch the ground so you instinctively either keep going or stop. The runner kept going.

As a tackler if you tackle someone and they fall on top of you all you have to do is hold on and stop momentum or keep holding on and roll the runner off you. The UO defender did neither.

Runner wasn't down or stopped, the call was correct. BTW, had he tackled him, I believe UA marches down and gets a FG anyway.

[texaspokieokie]

the runner didn't continue on until someone told him to.

how do we know that aubarn would've scored even if he was stopped ??

[OrlandoSooner]

the runner didn't continue on until someone told him to.

how do we know that aubarn would've scored even if he was stopped ??

I wonder how that play would have turned out if the initial take down happened on the Oregon sideline instead of the Auburn sideline. Dyer only started running again after someone on the sideline yelled at him. I don't think it changes the game as Auburn was close to FG range anyway, but I do think that Oregon would have been the first to react on that play.

[jkjsooner]

As a runner you know if part of your body other than your hand or foot touch the ground so you instinctively either keep going or stop. The runner kept going.

As a tackler if you tackle someone and they fall on top of you all you have to do is hold on and stop momentum or keep holding on and roll the runner off you. The UO defender did neither.

Runner wasn't down or stopped, the call was correct. BTW, had he tackled him, I believe UA marches down and gets a FG anyway.

1. The runner did not keep going. He stopped as well until he was told to run.

2. I agree that the tackling defender did not make a good play. He can complete the tackle without the risk of a personal foul. The other 10 defenders are put in a no-win situation. If they jump on the guy who is on top of the defender they'll get a late hit call 99.9% of the time. It looks like any play where a guy comes in late and it won't matter whether the whistle blows or not.

[jkjsooner]

Play til the whistle blows. It was good advice in grade school and it still works today.

So you support our defenders getting late hit personal fouls all the time? The officials aren't going to put the flag back in their pockets when the players says that the whistle was late...

[SoonerShay]

A similar play happened in OUr game with Uconn. Murray got tackled and wasn't taken down at all, instead he rolled over the defender. He tried to get back up and run, but the refs blew the play dead for some odd reason. Same thing happened on a pass he caught later in the game.

[TUSooner]

I do not really think the rule was misapplied in the BCS-MNC game, but I really don't care or even pretend to decide that. However, I think the rule is bad because you should be down if the only thing keeping your butt off the turf is the guy who is tackling you.

[85sooners]

:gary:

[MiccoMacey]

Didn't Adrian Peterson fumble the ball once after his wrist hit the ground in the 2006 RRS?

There's an article going around about how this call was the exact opposite call in the Arkansas-Ohio State game, where a TD was called back because his wrist it the ground.

[FirstandGoal]

In all honesty, IDGAS if he was down or not.

I just want all the duckies to feel screwed by the refs.