'Inhumane' treatment for Bradley Manning in WikiLeaks case

[MR2-Sooner86]

'Inhumane' treatment for US soldier in WikiLeaks case
(http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usdiplomacywikileaksinternetmilitaryrights#mwpphu-container)


WASHINGTON (AFP) – Months of "inhumane" solitary confinement are taking a toll on the US Army private suspected of passing secret government files to WikiLeaks, one of his supporters said after paying him a visit.

"It has become obvious to me that (Bradley) Manning's physical and mental well-being are deteriorating," David House wrote on the blog Firedoglake, recounting a visit to the military brig where the accused soldier is being held.

"It's become increasingly clear that the severe, inhumane conditions of his detention are wearing on Manning," he wrote.

Held at a military brig in Virginia at the Quantico Marine base since July, Manning, 23, has been placed under a maximum security regimen because authorities say his escape would pose a risk to national security.

Under the strict rules, Manning is allowed out of his cell for only one hour a day for exercise outside or at an indoor gym, military officers say.

But House said the Pentagon's description of conditions was contradicted by what he learned from Manning.

"He has not been outside or into the brig yard for either recreation nor exercises in four full weeks," House said.

"When told of the Pentagon's statement that he indeed receives exercise, Manning's reply was that he is able to exercise insofar as walking in chains is a form of exercise," he wrote.

As a "precaution," prison authorities have decided not to issue Manning cotton sheets and instead have provided two blankets and a pillow made of material that cannot be torn into pieces.

Manning told his visitor that "his blankets are similar in weight and heft to lead aprons used in X-ray laboratories," House said.

The army soldier was under a "Prevention of Injury" order that was the cause of some of the more strict conditions, House said, even though Manning allegedly had been cleared by a military psychologist.

"What Manning needs, and what his attorney has already urged, is to have the unnecessary 'Prevention of Injury' order lifted that severely restricts his ability to exercise, communicate, and sleep," he wrote.

The Pentagon has rejected allegations Manning is suffering from any abuse and insists he is being treated in the same way as other inmates under the "maximum custody" regime.

The WikiLeaks website has yet to disclose its source for a massive trove of classified US military and diplomatic documents published in recent months, but suspicion has focused on Manning, who worked as a low-ranking army intelligence analyst in Iraq.

Manning was arrested in May and US authorities have yet to say when he will be put on trial on charges of violating federal criminal and military law, including transmitting classified information to a third party.

If found guilty, Manning faces up to 52 years in prison.

While my views on Wikileaks and Julian Assange are different because that's journalism in another country not set by our rules, my view on Manning is different.

Bradley Manning is not a journalist and he is not an Australian national. He is an American Soldier. As such, taking those documents and leaking them to the world is treason. Period. Did he do the right thing? As far as truth and morality go, possibly yes. As far as serving his country? No. He took an oath and he violated it, knowing that prison, or death, was the outcome. He has done the deed and now he has to accept the consequences. Even if it means he spends the rest of his life in prison. Not too long ago, he would've been killed.

Personally, I hope we line him up in front of a firing squad and show the world we still have some balls.

[Blue]

Personally I can't wait until all the people like you are lined up and shot.

You are a detriment to freedom you bootlicking moron.

You've been brainwashed nice and good.

[Tiptonsooner]

Personally I can't wait until all the people like you are lined up and shot.

You are a detriment to freedom you bootlicking moron.

You've been brainwashed nice and good.

WOW

Manning stands accused of breaking a law he was full aware. Treason is a capitol crime, which I'm sure he was full aware, being in intelligence.

He should be given a pass, why?

[MR2-Sooner86]

Personally I can't wait until all the people like you are lined up and shot.

Why is that?


You are a detriment to freedom you bootlicking moron.

How?


You've been brainwashed nice and good.

How? What did I say to convince you of that? Where have I said it? When did I say it?

The definition of treason is clear. What he did was commit treason and the punishment for that is clear, death. What's not to understand?

[Blue]

WOW

Manning stands accused of breaking a law he was full aware. Treason is a capitol crime, which I'm sure he was full aware, being in intelligence.

He should be given a pass, why?

Thats all well and good considering he works for the biggest mafia in World history.

I'm not defending Iraq, Iran, N Korea, etc...but our govt is out of control. Hell, our police are out of control. Forgive me if I don't sympathize with the biggest murderers on our planet.

fyi I love the troops. I just wish they wouldn't get involved with terrorists. I.e. the U.S. Govt.

[Blue]

Why is that?



How?



How? What did I say to convince you of that? Where have I said it? When did I say it?

The definition of treason is clear. What he did was commit treason and the punishment for that is clear, death. What's not to understand?

1. You support an out of control imperialist foreign policy. You condemn anyone to death who disagrees.

2. Bc you support a govt who spies, lies, and infringes on the rights of its citizens.

3. See 1 and 2.

[MR2-Sooner86]

1. You support an out of control imperialist foreign policy. You condemn anyone to death who disagrees.

Alright, first I have to ask, how old are you kid? I'm going to peg you at about 17 because your argument screams of something you'd hear from a high school debate class. I'll play along though since this seems like it'll be entertaining.

Where have I supported our foreign policy? I mean, all those times I quoted Ron Paul and supported him on his foreign policy of pulling our military out of places like the Middle East must have been a dream.

As for supporting death to anybody who disagrees, find that one too. There's a difference between treason and silencing free speech. Try again on that argument, slick.


2. Bc you support a govt who spies, lies, and infringes on the rights of its citizens.

Where did I say I supported the government in all it does? The rules are simple, if you want to blow the whistle, fine. Just remember, it's an act of treason and if you get caught, you will have to pay a price. If Manning didn't think releasing the documents was worth prison or death, he shouldn't have done it.

Our Founding Fathers KNEW they were commiting treason but they saw it was worth it so they went ahead. They were willing to die for their ideas.


3. See 1 and 2.

Seeing as how one and two were debunked, this is this one too.

1ytCEuuW2_A

Thanks for playing. Feel free to come back anytime you feel you can bring something to the table.

[Mongo]

Personally, i can't wait until all the people that cant wait for those that want others to be lined up and shot, are lined up and shot.

Too mamy of them fools running around

[sappstuf]

Of COURSE he was treated inhumanely... He was a gay man serving under the yoke of DADT. The United States got exactly what it deserved...

Wait.. There's no sarcasm emoticon on this board...

[OnlyOneOklahoma]

Manning committed treason. He should be hanged.

Assange is a true beacon of hope in our world of secrets, but anyone who violates an oath and commits treason against the United States (Manning volunteered for duty) should be hanged.

I am all for taking down the man, but this one is pretty black and white in my liberal brain.

[sappstuf]

Manning committed treason. He should be hanged.

Assange is a true beacon of hope in our world of secrets, but anyone who violates an oath and commits treason against the United States (Manning volunteered for duty) should be hanged.

I am all for taking down the man, but this one is pretty black and white in my liberal brain.

Speaking of Assange, I think I may have found an 'Ironic Headline of the Year' candidate.


WikiLeaks' Founder Assange Claims He Is Victim of Leak (http://www.voanews.com/english/news/WikiLeaks-Founder-Assange-Claims-He-Is-Victim-of-Leak-112246549.html)

[olevetonahill]

Personally I can't wait until all the people like you are lined up and shot.

You are a detriment to freedom you bootlicking moron.

You've been brainwashed nice and good.

Some ones been drankin all night again :D

[Midtowner]

Those saying treason probably haven't read the treason law. Manning should be imprisoned if he violated the law, but this solitary confinement bit is pretty inhumane.

That said, Assange and Wikileaks is really a beacon of hope. We live in a Republic. If the voters are deprived of information and instead fed a steady diet of propaganda, how can they make informed decisions at the ballot box.

[soonercoop1]

'Inhumane' treatment for US soldier in WikiLeaks case
(http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usdiplomacywikileaksinternetmilitaryrights#mwpphu-container)



While my views on Wikileaks and Julian Assange are different because that's journalism in another country not set by our rules, my view on Manning is different.

Bradley Manning is not a journalist and he is not an Australian national. He is an American Soldier. As such, taking those documents and leaking them to the world is treason. Period. Did he do the right thing? As far as truth and morality go, possibly yes. As far as serving his country? No. He took an oath and he violated it, knowing that prison, or death, was the outcome. He has done the deed and now he has to accept the consequences. Even if it means he spends the rest of his life in prison. Not too long ago, he would've been killed.

Personally, I hope we line him up in front of a firing squad and show the world we still have some balls.

Have to agree that he needs to be executed for treason...funny how laws don't seem to have the desired effect unless they are enforced...

[Okla-homey]

I oppose the death penalty for anyone. I do, however, heartily endorse "life without the possibility of parole in a federal maximum security penitentiary" for people who are convicted of treason.

In many ways, that sentence is worse punishment than death anyway.

That's also why that piece of crap who bombed the Murrah Building wanted to be executed ASAP.

And for the record, it is not "cruel or inhuman" to hold a person in a sanitary, warm, dry private cell 23 hours a day with adequate nutrition, hydration and a bed. Even if the blankies are scratchy. F the little turd.

[cccasooner2]

"If found guilty, Manning faces up to 52 years in prison."


OK, I'll play the bleeding heart. The accused was not "properly informed" of the consequences of his oath. Let Manning play his bowl game and we can execute him next year.

[Doged]

Thats all well and good considering he works for the biggest mafia in World history.

I'm not defending Iraq, Iran, N Korea, etc...but our govt is out of control. Hell, our police are out of control. Forgive me if I don't sympathize with the biggest murderers on our planet.

fyi I love the troops. I just wish they wouldn't get involved with terrorists. I.e. the U.S. Govt.

One has to wonder why you continue to live in a nation, and under a government, that you hate so heartily? Have you considered immigration and a citizenship change to someplace a little more in line with your way of thinking, or are you just a whiner by nature with no intention of doing anything to change the horrible life you find yourself caught up in?

[Okla-homey]

One has to wonder why you continue to live in a nation, and under a government, that you hate so heartily? Have you considered immigration and a citizenship change to someplace a little more in line with your way of thinking, or are you just a whiner by nature with no intention of doing anything to change the horrible life you find yourself caught up in?

That's just it. The Tin Foil Hat Club just talks. And talks. And talks.

And for the record, the US government isn't even close to being "the biggest mafia in world history." The Mafia is well-organized, disciplined and does not abide traitors.

[AlboSooner]

Personally, I hope we line him up in front of a firing squad and show the world we still have some balls.

I hope he gets his due in court, and we show the world we are a nation of laws. I don't think that after invading two countries, anybody would doubt our bravery, and ability to inflict a lot of pain.

having traveled a bit, I have never sensed the feeling that the world thinks we are cowards, or unwilling to do a lot of violence. the opposite is actually true.

[Veritas]

If you can't do the time...

[Okla-homey]

If you can't do the time...

Can you imagine the effect on society if people were freely allowed to ignore laws with which they did not personally agree? One word. Chaos.

[Veritas]

Can you imagine the effect on society if people were freely allowed to ignore laws with which they did not personally agree? One word. Chaos.
Seems like we're on a slow slide that direction.

[Sooner5030]

It's not like he was walking down the road and accidentally tripped on some secret data. If you're so f-king high on your transparency kick then don't sign a contract and take an oath in order to be entrusted with this nation's classified networks. Let us know your lofty transparency goals upfront. It's called honesty and honor.

If you have to lie, cheat and steal to to uncover your gubment's secrets then you're are just as bad as those you're allegedly fighting against.

[Okla-homey]

Seems like we're on a slow slide that direction.

I fear you are right.

I blame much of it on the "you have no right to judge me" and this "every child is special" pap that has been spewed by libertines and other bed-wetters for a couple decades now.

For the record, every child is most assuredly not special. Many are born dullards who will never amount to anything. Ditto the flawed policy of giving every kid a trophy at the end of the season simply for showing up and not peeing midfield.

If we keep filling kids with this notion that they should be rewarded simply because they exist, and whatever they do is fine and dandy, we are sowing a whirlwind. The punk who violated his sacred oath is just another manifestation of the problem.

[sooner59]

Bradley Manning threw 50 TD passes this year. :pop:

[Jammin']

I fear you are right.

I blame much of it on the "you have no right to judge me" and this "every child is special" pap that has been spewed by libertines and other bed-wetters for a couple decades now.

For the record, every child is most assuredly not special. Many are born dullards who will never amount to anything. Ditto the flawed policy of giving every kid a trophy at the end of the season simply for showing up and not peeing midfield.

If we keep filling kids with this notion that they should be rewarded simply because they exist, and whatever they do is fine and dandy, we are sowing a whirlwind. The punk who violated his sacred oath is just another manifestation of the problem.

You mean like No child left behind? Or are you only mad at what liberals have done in the last two decades. Just curious.

[Okla-homey]

You mean like No child left behind? Or are you only mad at what liberals have done in the last two decades. Just curious.

NCLB is good legislation to the extent it holds teachers and schools accountable. It's bad legislation to the extent it doesn't account for the fact the world needs ditchdiggers and some kids are only cut-out for that kind of work. They ought to be taught the basic stuff (reading, writing, simple math) and shown the door by about 10th grade or so.

It makes me want to puke when pols get on soapboxes about making "college affordable to all." Newsflash: A lot of people have no business in college and it is a waste of eveyone involved's time and resources to give them a shot at it.

Me? I think student loans and grants should be much harder to come by. And these for-profit outfits like Phoenix University should be investigated. They are running a scam that involves admitting practically anyone, charging absurd tuition, and setting their "students" up with loans out the ying-yang to pay for it all. The only people who benefit work for or own Phoenix University.

[King Barry's Back]

Thats all well and good considering he works for the biggest mafia in World history.

I'm not defending Iraq, Iran, N Korea, etc...but our govt is out of control. Hell, our police are out of control. Forgive me if I don't sympathize with the biggest murderers on our planet.

fyi I love the troops. I just wish they wouldn't get involved with terrorists. I.e. the U.S. Govt.

Maybe I should read the rest of this thread before commenting myself, but I will go ahead and reply to you Mr Bham directly.

In pretty much all cases that I know of, when someone with access to classified material has taken it public (leaked it), they have had a strong moral or political motivation for doing so. You, or me, or someone else, might or might not agree with that motivation -- but these people found out something through their work that they felt needed to be put out to the American people. And, after carefully weighing the issue, they took it upon themselves to release the info.

Manning did no such thing. Frankly, he had no idea what he was releasing directly into the world. He just downloaded something like one million or more documents, all classified, and stuck them in his pocket. He didn't read these and come to believe that this vital information had to be publicized. No human has the capacity to read more than a tiny percentage of that much info.

He was in-fact releasing material that he didn't even know what it was, and in MASSIVE library-sized quantities. That is simply reckless and irresponsible. What if he had decided to "leak" your tax returns, Mr Bham? Or what about your middle school records?

Manning's no hero or defender of freedom, or defender of the American people. His actions indicate that he's more like a child holding daddy's gun. He didn't really know what he was playing with, but he knew that it was exciting, and dangerous!

Julian Assange is the same type. Assange doesn't know what he's releasing to the world, and he has no idea what kind of damage will be done by doing so. What's far worse, is that he doesn't seem to care, or to be even slightly interested in finding out.

[King Barry's Back]

That said, Assange and Wikileaks is really a beacon of hope. We live in a Republic. If the voters are deprived of information and instead fed a steady diet of propaganda, how can they make informed decisions at the ballot box.

I hope you are following the press coverage of the release of diplomatic cables.

If you are, you will have noted how extremely similar both the public and private policies and goals, being pursued by American diplomats, are to each other.

And if you have noticed this, I further hope that you have begun to question if you have been "fed a steady diet of propaganda" by the US government.

It is a fact that governments have legitimate secrecy needs, just as businesses and even private individuals like yourself do. You can not have public disclosure of, say, a police raid before it happens, just like you can not have the government make public release of the private tax and medical documents of individual citizens.

You might also consider that, now that Wikileaks has struck, the government now must invariably take steps to make its activities far more secret than before. I say that's too bad.

[SoonerStormchaser]

I think there's a few million of us in uniform that would love to have a lottery to determine who forms Manning's firing squad...cause that's exactly what he deserves.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

It is a fact that governments have legitimate secrecy needs, just as businesses and even private individuals like yourself do. You can not have public disclosure of, say, a police raid before it happens, just like you can not have the government make public release of the private tax and medical documents of individual citizens.

You might also consider that, now that Wikileaks has struck, the government now must invariably take steps to make its activities far more secret than before. I say that's too bad.
Except, no one is leaking those things. Too many things are being made secret, things that either are just silly (Medvedev playing Robin to Putin's Batman) or things that are important (Yemen's nuclear materials situation). If more things like this are made public, we can truly have a government that fears its people and actually gets some things done, instead of hiding behind a shroud of secrecy. Sure, somethings need to be classified and Assange has said he isn't trying to leak things that will get people killed, and I am yet to see any evidence that wikileaks has lead to any deaths.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

NCLB is good legislation to the extent it holds teachers and schools accountable. It's bad legislation to the extent it doesn't account for the fact the world needs ditchdiggers and some kids are only cut-out for that kind of work. They ought to be taught the basic stuff (reading, writing, simple math) and shown the door by about 10th grade or so.

Yeah, by standardized tests. Because we all know, thats how the real world operates. Written tests, written tests, written tests. And "kids are only cut out for that kind of work", with a few exceptions either way, most people are born with a similar slate. It all has to do with the manner kids are brought up (or not brought up) by their parents, so I take issue with "showing kids the door" unless they don't want to be there.


Me? I think student loans and grants should be much harder to come by.
Right, education should be for elite only.

[Sooner5030]

Except, no one is leaking those things. .

How do you know this? I know some of these things have not been published but that does not mean that data hasn’t been leaked.


Too many things are being made secret,

Would you rather the gubment pay even more money so everyone can have just as much bandwidth and equal access to a NIPR (unclassified) network? Right now it’s easier to do everything on the SIPR net due to bandwidth allocation and access points. You see there are only so many little antennas, routers, TAClans and satellites. Once information is put on the SIPR net in any format – word, email, powerpoint or PDF it is considered classified at the lowest level of SIPR (secret) until it can be declassified. Declassifying just takes the review of the local S2 (intel analyst). Of course he or she is also busy doing IED defeat analysis and a ton of other ****. So we could stop all that IED defeat and enemy analysis crap and devote all our resources to declassify all this stuff so SouthCarolinaSooner can sleep better at night.

Are you on drugs?

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

How do you know this? I know some of these things have not been published but that does not mean that data hasn’t been leaked.
They have police raid details in embassy cables?




Would you rather the gubment pay even more money so everyone can have just as much bandwidth and equal access to a NIPR (unclassified) network? Right now it’s easier to do everything on the SIPR net due to bandwidth allocation and access points. You see there are only so many little antennas, routers, TAClans and satellites. Once information is put on the SIPR net in any format – word, email, powerpoint or PDF it is considered classified at the lowest level of SIPR (secret) until it can be declassified. Declassifying just takes the review of the local S2 (intel analyst). Of course he or she is also busy doing IED defeat analysis and a ton of other ****. So we could stop all that IED defeat and enemy analysis crap and devote all our resources to declassify all this stuff so SouthCarolinaSooner can sleep better at night.

Are you on drugs?

I don't know enough on government networking to comment on half of that, although don't believe logistics is the reason for keeping information secret. The majority of these cables have no effect on national security, if they have no effect on national security, why are they being kept secret? How can the people hold the government accountable when there is little transparency, especially in international affairs? If a government has nothing to hide from its people, why is it so paranoid about these cables getting out?

[SoonerStormchaser]

They have police raid details in embassy cables?


I don't know enough on government networking to comment on half of that, although don't believe logistics is the reason for keeping information secret. The majority of these cables have no effect on national security, if they have no effect on national security, why are they being kept secret? How can the people hold the government accountable when there is little transparency, especially in international affairs? If a government has nothing to hide from its people, why is it so paranoid about these cables getting out?

How about Bob Stoops holds a press conference tomorrow and reveals his entire playbook? How would you feel then...

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

How about Bob Stoops holds a press conference tomorrow and reveals his entire playbook? How would you feel then...
How would you feel if I made a comparison just as ****ty as the one you just made?

[olevetonahill]

Leroid Is that you ?

[SoonerStormchaser]

How would you feel if I made a comparison just as ****ty as the one you just made?

You sure you and Bham aren't "butties?"

[yermom]

Maybe I should read the rest of this thread before commenting myself, but I will go ahead and reply to you Mr Bham directly.

In pretty much all cases that I know of, when someone with access to classified material has taken it public (leaked it), they have had a strong moral or political motivation for doing so. You, or me, or someone else, might or might not agree with that motivation -- but these people found out something through their work that they felt needed to be put out to the American people. And, after carefully weighing the issue, they took it upon themselves to release the info.

Manning did no such thing. Frankly, he had no idea what he was releasing directly into the world. He just downloaded something like one million or more documents, all classified, and stuck them in his pocket. He didn't read these and come to believe that this vital information had to be publicized. No human has the capacity to read more than a tiny percentage of that much info.

He was in-fact releasing material that he didn't even know what it was, and in MASSIVE library-sized quantities. That is simply reckless and irresponsible. What if he had decided to "leak" your tax returns, Mr Bham? Or what about your middle school records?

Manning's no hero or defender of freedom, or defender of the American people. His actions indicate that he's more like a child holding daddy's gun. He didn't really know what he was playing with, but he knew that it was exciting, and dangerous!

Julian Assange is the same type. Assange doesn't know what he's releasing to the world, and he has no idea what kind of damage will be done by doing so. What's far worse, is that he doesn't seem to care, or to be even slightly interested in finding out.

Manning did leak things he had problems with and thought the public should know. he just also grabbed all he could at the the time as well.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/07/hacker-wikileaks-iraq-video-manning

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

You sure you and Bham aren't "butties?"
Did you really just try to compare OUr playbook to United States foreign policy? Look, I'm not advocating that we spill the beans on everything. But in a free society, there should be very little secrecy and truth should not be treason, to paraphrase Ron Paul. Olevet, SS, others, do you really want your government conducting its foreign affairs with a shroud of secrecy?

[Okla-homey]

And "kids are only cut out for that kind of work", with a few exceptions either way, most people are born with a similar slate. It all has to do with the manner kids are brought up (or not brought up) by their parents, so I take issue with "showing kids the door" unless they don't want to be there.


Are you suggesting all kids are generally born the same in the intellect department?

[Okla-homey]

do you really want your government conducting its foreign affairs with a shroud of secrecy?

In a word, yes. That's the way its been done throughout history. For good reason. At the great risk of oversimplification, diplomacy is like a card game. You show some cards, and you hold some cards. Sometimes you bluff, sometimes you fold. Sometimes you call. Depending on your hand and the cards the other guy is showing.

Moreover, it is virtually impossible to negotiate an acceptable compromise if the other side knows everything about you, your strengths and weaknesses, and your assesment of his.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Are you suggesting all kids are generally born the same in the intellect department?
Born with generally similar potential, yes.

[olevetonahill]

Guys, what we have here is a leroid wannabe :eek:

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

In a word, yes. That's the way its been done throughout history. For good reason. At the great risk of oversimplification, diplomacy is like a card game. You show some cards, and you hold some cards. Sometimes you bluff, sometimes you fold. Sometimes you call. Depending on your hand and the cards the other guy is showing.

Moreover, it is virtually impossible to negotiate an acceptable compromise if the other side knows everything about you, your strengths and weaknesses, and your assesment of his.
Thats the way its always been done, and the world has been so great in the past that we shouldn't change some things? Often times, these cards you refer to are people's lives. Not that lives aren't sacrificed sometimes for the betterment of a nation, but often times they aren't. Lack of transparency allows the government to sacrifice cards for things that are not in the best interest of everyone.

Again, not saying we give everything away. But I'd like to know the real reasons for war, and if we are pushing or being pushed towards war.

[SoonerStormchaser]

Guys, what we have here is a leroid wannabe :eek:

Him and Bham both...I can't figure out who's the bigger doosh when it comes to the stupidity of their posts.

[Okla-homey]

Born with generally similar potential, yes.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the science bears out my belief some kids are just born slow or incapable of grasping certain concepts. They used to call those kids "dull normal," but that's probably not a PC term nowadays.

[Okla-homey]

Lack of transparency allows the government to sacrifice cards for things that are not in the best interest of everyone.

Again, not saying we give everything away. But I'd like to know the real reasons for war, and if we are pushing or being pushed towards war.

I don't really care if the things the US does are not "in the best interest of everyone." I only care bout the US's best interests. And as to the "real reasons" for war, or anything else the US does internationally, in a republic like ours, it's generally best to elect leaders we trust, and rely on them to do what's best. If it turns out they didn't, we fire them the next time they stand of election. Anything beyond that is quite impractical.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Him and Bham both...I can't figure out who's the bigger doosh when it comes to the stupidity of their posts.
Whats a doosh?


We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think the science bears out my belief some kids are just born slow or incapable of grasping certain concepts. They used to call those kids "dull normal," but that's probably not a PC term nowadays.
Can I see the science that bears out your proof? Really, I haven't seen studies either way. Its just been my opinion that the nature in which a child is brought up counts more than their predispositions. Not saying that handicapped kids could suddenly become college students in the "right environment".


I don't really care if the things the US does are not "in the best interest of everyone." I only care bout the US's best interests. And as to the "real reasons" for war, or anything else the US does internationally, in a republic like ours, it's generally best to elect leaders we trust, and rely on them to do what's best. If it turns out they didn't, we fire them the next time they stand of election. Anything beyond that is quite impractical.
I meant best interests of the average US citizen. How do we know we can still trust leaders in office when there is a lack of transparency? The Constitution does not provide for anything other than a turnover in office, because the original framers had no intent for massive federal government with opaque transparency.

[soonercruiser]

Manning committed treason. He should be hanged.

Assange is a true beacon of hope in our world of secrets, but anyone who violates an oath and commits treason against the United States (Manning volunteered for duty) should be hanged.

I am all for taking down the man, but this one is pretty black and white in my liberal brain.

I agree! Manning commit treason.

I am conservative, and when things continued to go awry in the Air Force with political correctness and race being used as a weapon by bad people against their superiors (to say nothing of it being under the draft dogging Bill Clintin), I chose to get out!

But, up to that point, I was obligated by oath to keep my mouth shut!
I pledged an oath to obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me, included whomever was President.
My vote. come election time, was the only weapon I could use.
Even to this day, I am bound not to divulged classified information.....ah....what I can remember anyway. :rolleyes:

The only way that we can turn around this national deficit of honesty and honor, is to make military service mandatory again - for everyone! Let these young folks see the other side of the word from the keyboard and blog!

[soonercruiser]

That's just it. The Tin Foil Hat Club just talks. And talks. And talks.

And for the record, the US government isn't even close to being "the biggest mafia in world history." The Mafia is well-organized, disciplined and does not abide traitors.

:D
Our federal government is definately NOT well organized!!
But, it does have as many tentacles as the Mafia.

[soonercruiser]

Except, no one is leaking those things. Too many things are being made secret, things that either are just silly (Medvedev playing Robin to Putin's Batman) or things that are important (Yemen's nuclear materials situation). If more things like this are made public, we can truly have a government that fears its people and actually gets some things done, instead of hiding behind a shroud of secrecy. Sure, somethings need to be classified and Assange has said he isn't trying to leak things that will get people killed, and I am yet to see any evidence that wikileaks has lead to any deaths.

Just to be clear about it, in todays liberal major media environment, you will likely have to travel to Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakeystan (Obama spelling) to see the effects.
I suggest that you please do, and report back!
But, then again, I'm sure Wikileaks will publish a report on those killed, improsoned, or just disapperaing - won't they?? Oh, they probably just moved and didn't leave a forwarding address, like the millions in Cambodia. :rolleyes:
**Dozens of my South Vietnamese friends have not been heard from, and I didn't hear their names mentioned on ABS, NBS, CBS, MSNBS, or NPRBS! THis was all I had to listen to for the news for many years! :O

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Just to be clear about it, in todays liberal major media environment, you will likely have to travel to Iraq, Afghanistan, or Pakeystan (Obama spelling) to see the effects.
I suggest that you please do, and report back!
But, then again, I'm sure Wikileaks will publish a report on those killed, improsoned, or just disapperaing - won't they?? Oh, they probably just moved and didn't leave a forwarding address, like the millions in Cambodia. :rolleyes:
**Dozens of my South Vietnamese friends have not been heard from, and I didn't hear their names mentioned on ABS, NBS, CBS, MSNBS, or NPRBS! THis was all I had to listen to for the news for many years! :O
Righto, I'll get out my tinfoil hat and turn on foxnews right away! Wikileaks will publish whatever they can get their hands on that does not endanger lives, that has been stated and so far they've delivered on that. They're a very trustworthy "newsource", no agenda except to get information out to the population.

[Okla-homey]

The Constitution does not provide for anything other than a turnover in office, because the original framers had no intent for massive federal government with opaque transparency.

Are you nuts? Srsly.

For example, our third president, Thom. Jefferson, bought "Louisiana," including what would someday be Oklahoma, from Napolean's government without a by-your-leave from anyone.

The first any American outside of Jefferson's inner circle, or the diplomatic team he sent to Paris to do the deal heard of it was after the deed was done.

Wake up and stop listening to Michael Moore and his revisionist ilk.

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Are you nuts? Srsly.

For example, our third president, Thom. Jefferson, bought "Louisiana," including what would someday be Oklahoma, from Napolean's government without a by-your-leave from anyone.

The first any American outside of Jefferson's inner circle, or the diplomatic team he sent to Paris to do the deal heard of it was after the deed was done.

Wake up and stop listening to Michael Moore and his revisionist ilk.
A move that Jefferson himself questioned as unconstitutional and many at the time thought it was as well. But I wasn't talking about that, I was speaking more of the tangling web of alliances and intrigue the United States has continued to park itself in after World War II.

"wake up" I'm the one asking for more transparency here :P

[Okla-homey]

I was speaking more of the tangling web of alliances and intrigue the United States has continued to park itself in after World War II.

Newsflash Sparky: the "bomb" changed everything. Forever.

Good thing the American people knew every detail about Manhattan Project funding and development starting in 1942, huh?

Serious question. Do you actually believe this claptrap about "no state secrets" or are you just trying to come off as all edgy and hip?

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

Newsflash Sparky: the "bomb" changed everything. Forever.

Good thing the American people knew every detail about Manhattan Project funding and development starting in 1942, huh?

Serious question. Do you actually believe this claptrap about "no state secrets" or are you just trying to come off as all edgy and hip?
The bomb and the Soviets gave us an excuse to continually expand the MIC. I've said multiple times that some things should be kept classified, military technology being one of those. Whether or not the US is being pushed towards war by Saudi Arabia? Not classified.

Have you read my posts? I don't type like olevet so they shouldn't be incomprehensible.

[olevetonahill]

At least you love me, You doosh bucket :rolleyes:

[SouthCarolinaSooner]

At least you love me, You doosh bucket :rolleyes:
Oh you know I do old guy ;) still not sure what a doosh is

[soonercoop1]

Righto, I'll get out my tinfoil hat and turn on foxnews right away! Wikileaks will publish whatever they can get their hands on that does not endanger lives, that has been stated and so far they've delivered on that. They're a very trustworthy "newsource", no agenda except to get information out to the population.

:pop:

[Fraggle145]

Born with generally similar potential, yes.

This is just not correct.

[olevetonahill]

This is just not correct.

Bro save yer breath er Typin . This dude has graduated from the Leroid school of arguing :pop:

[Midtowner]

How is this different from the Pentagon Papers except for in scope? The Press has an important role in informing the public discussion. Otherwise, crooks like Richard Holbrooke would be running the show throwing away American lives and the lives of others, lying not only to the public, but also to Congress.

There are some things which should definitely be kept secret. As mentioned before, military technology, tactics, identities of underground assets. So far, especially in these diplomatic cables, I haven't seen anything remotely approaching that, and funny enough, a lot of the same folks screaming for this kid's head thought the whole Valery Plame thing was no big deal.

The young man who allegedly leaked this information is a hero. He was being forced to round up civilians in Iraq to turn over to the Iraqi police who systematically and routinely tortured them. When he went to his superiors, he was rebuffed. Blowing the lid of these practices and others, knowing how dire the consequences of being caught would be took some guts.

Of course it's no shock that the military would want to punish this kid by subjecting him to solitary confinement. And so far as I know, there's nothing illegal about what they're doing to them.

Knowing that there are potentially a lot of Bradley Mannings out there is something I hope scares the bejeezus out of the folks who would do wrong in this country's name. If it causes them to walk the straight and narrow a bit more, then fine. If they don't and they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar, perhaps us voters can do our job to rectify the problem.

[olevetonahill]

I cant believe this shat. Now you weirdos are making him into a HERO?
Hell I just thot what ya were sayin before was stupid, But you've gone on over to ****ing insane .

[Collier11]

I dont know a lot about military protocol and such so correct me if im wrong, it isnt necessarily the fact that this info got out but more-so the fact that an active military serving in iraq stole the docs/info and released it without having any sort of clearance...yea, that is F'd up and he is getting his justice

[Midtowner]

I cant believe this shat. Now you weirdos are making him into a HERO?
Hell I just thot what ya were sayin before was stupid, But you've gone on over to ****ing insane .

Yep. Your country is capable of doing some effed up things. God bless the folks who try to stand in the way of that happening.

If you define a hero as someone who sacrifices himself for the good of others, Manning is exactly that.

You can be in the "it's my country, right or wrong" crowd. But bear in mind that sort of mentality was what got us into and kept us in Vietnam and lost 50,000 American lives and many, many more Vietnamese.

[Veritas]

This board has sustained a real invasion of *** clowns lately. If only someone would bravely leak the source of these morons so we could automatically block them.

[olevetonahill]

This board has sustained a real invasion of *** clowns lately. If only someone would bravely leak the source of these morons so we could automatically block them.

OUI, but most of em are good peeps, there are some *** clowns tho.

[SCOUT]

Yep. Your country is capable of doing some effed up things.

Which country gets the pleasure of claiming you?

[MR2-Sooner86]

I'll just like to drop in here. I'm going to throw a wrench in the works. Lets just say the documents stolen and leaked had one of the following in them.

MK-ULTRA, Tuskegee Syphilis Study, Operation Mockingbird, Iran-Contra, Gulf of Tonkin, Operation Ajax, Operation Gladio, Operation Paperclip, Church Committee, CIA Drug Smuggling, or the Testimony of Nayirah.

Now, am I defending this guy? No. I'm just showing that not everything our government does in secret is fine. As I stated earlier, it's a judgement call. If you want to blow the whistle on something and are willing to die for it, fine. Just don't cry when they hang you.

[C&CDean]

I see about 3-4 uber-commie posters on here that probably average what...22 years of age? Down with the man. **** the government. Trust noone.

Meh. Go join the ****ing Marine Corps or Army and find out a little something about what you obviously know nothing about.

This wormy little POS should be tried, convicted, and hanged, shot, or put to death by whatever means the military uses these days. Those of you who are loving on him are clueless dweebs who've never served your country and know nothing about what it takes to remain a viable player in the world. I guess we've got a new "hippy movement" going on. Sheesh.

[The]

Didn't read the thread. Is it worth it, or should I just move on?

[C&CDean]

Your call. Depends on how much stupidity you can handle in one shot.

[JohnnyMack]

The is the Jenna Jameson to this board's Peter North. He can handle it. In fact, I think he might relish it.

[Midtowner]

I see about 3-4 uber-commie posters on here that probably average what...22 years of age? Down with the man. **** the government. Trust noone.

Meh. Go join the ****ing Marine Corps or Army and find out a little something about what you obviously know nothing about.

This wormy little POS should be tried, convicted, and hanged, shot, or put to death by whatever means the military uses these days. Those of you who are loving on him are clueless dweebs who've never served your country and know nothing about what it takes to remain a viable player in the world. I guess we've got a new "hippy movement" going on. Sheesh.

So let me get this straight. You're cool with the following:

-- The killing of two Reuters journalists in Iraq;
-- Video depicting a U.S. helicopter pilot gunning down 12 civilians in a Baghdad attack exclaming "Ha ha, I hit 'em."
-- Soldiers being ordered to ignore the fact that Iraqi security forces routinely abuse prisoners through routine beatings, burnings, electrocution and rape.
-- Logs revealing over 100,000 fatalities in the Iraq invasion including 66,000 civilians.
-- An order directly from Secretary Clinton telling diplomats to spy on U.N. officials.
-- That Obama and GOP worked together to kill the Bush torture probe.
-- That we pressured Germany not to prosecute CIA officers for the torture and rendition of an innocent German national.
-- That the U.S. is fueling the conflict in Yemen by shipping arms there.
-- That the UK trained a Bangladesh death squad.
-- That we're expanding the scope of the Afghan war by putting boots on the ground in Pakistan.
-- That we're expanding operations in Afghanistan despite the fact that even our own leaders admit that the conflict is basically futile.

(and as an aside, in compliance with the site's requirements that no information from teh cables be published here, this list comes from Salon.com, which publishes links to legitimate media sites such as NYT and Der Spiegel, this information is not taken directly from the cables)

The list goes on and on. We're spending trillions of dollars borrowed from China, on futile conflict after conflict in search of what? World peace? Have we killed all the terrorists? Is that even possible? Are we more loved in the world now than we were in 2001? Does anyone care?

A Republic doesn't work unless the citizens seriously question the actions of those in charge. If we don't, really, we might as well adopt a Central Committee system like China has. They seem to be kicking our butt in every possible way anyhow.

[olevetonahill]

So let me get this straight. You're cool with being a uberdoosh?:rolleyes:

[Midtowner]

So let me get this straight. You're cool with being a uberdoosh?:rolleyes:

It's uncritical flag-waving morons like you who allowed the Nazis to come to power and the Communist Revolution in Russia to take hold. Our country can do no wrong, and if they're caught, blame the person telling the truth, not the people scurrying to hide it.

Try actually considering the consequences of your country's actions. Our leaders' agendas place the welfare of the United States citizen well behind other things.

[olevetonahill]

**** off dip **** :rolleyes:

[okie52]

So let me get this straight. You're cool with the following:

-- The killing of two Reuters journalists in Iraq;
Accidents happen in war.
-- Video depicting a U.S. helicopter pilot gunning down 12 civilians in a Baghdad attack exclaming "Ha ha, I hit 'em."
Did they know they were civilians? Again accidents happen.-- Soldiers being ordered to ignore the fact that Iraqi security forces routinely abuse prisoners through routine beatings, burnings, electrocution and rape.
Is the US also going to handle the interrogations instead of the Iraqi's? Is it the US's responsibility for how the Iraqi's treat their own?
-- Logs revealing over 100,000 fatalities in the Iraq invasion including 66,000 civilians. Collateral damage. I don't have a problem with that being revealed.

--An order directly from Secretary Clinton telling diplomats to spy on U.N. officials. Do you have a problem with this? I have a problem with it being released.

-- That Obama and GOP worked together to kill the Bush torture probe.
I don't care about this one way or the other. Obviously both the dems and the GOP thought this issue was best left unspoken.

-- That we pressured Germany not to prosecute CIA officers for the torture and rendition of an innocent German national.
The decision is up to Germany.
-- That the U.S. is fueling the conflict in Yemen by shipping arms there.
Are we shipping arms to the rebels and/or terrorists?
-- That the UK trained a Bangladesh death squad.
What has that to do with the US?
-- That we're expanding the scope of the Afghan war by putting boots on the ground in Pakistan. Why not....? The terrorists are living there that come back into Afghantistan. Pakistan is just a safe haven for them.

-- That we're expanding operations in Afghanistan despite the fact that even our own leaders admit that the conflict is basically futile.
Well, that may be true about the futility. I personally am for leveling the place and leaving....scorched earth leaving nothing for the Taliban to return to.

(and as an aside, in compliance with the site's requirements that no information from teh cables be published here, this list comes from Salon.com, which publishes links to legitimate media sites such as NYT and Der Spiegel, this information is not taken directly from the cables)

The list goes on and on. We're spending trillions of dollars borrowed from China, on futile conflict after conflict in search of what? World peace? Have we killed all the terrorists? Is that even possible? Are we more loved in the world now than we were in 2001? Does anyone care?

I don't know if being "loved" by the world is a top priority. Of course, I would like to see us remove ourselves from all of these ME and other foreign entanglements.

A Republic doesn't work unless the citizens seriously question the actions of those in charge. If we don't, really, we might as well adopt a Central Committee system like China has. They seem to be kicking our butt in every possible way anyhow. The republic also has a right to its own classified information and to expect its citizens to observe that classification...particularly ones in the military.

This guy "Manning" wasn't a hero. If his concerns were about the US rounding up civilians in Iraq then why didn't he limit his "leak" to just that issue?

[yermom]

i'm really confused.

at what point does one stop trusting the country's leadership?

people are up in arms about letting tax cuts expire, or healthcare reform, but torture and dead civilians are okay?

aren't we supposed to be the white knight of the world? i guess we keep that image through information suppression.

[MR2-Sooner86]

I see about 3-4 uber-commie posters on here that probably average what...22 years of age? Down with the man. **** the government. Trust noone.

In my defense I'm 24 and more of an anarchist but other than that you're on the money :pop:


So let me get this straight. You're cool with the following:

-- The killing of two Reuters journalists in Iraq;
-- Video depicting a U.S. helicopter pilot gunning down 12 civilians in a Baghdad attack exclaming "Ha ha, I hit 'em."

I saw the video and not all the facts were given. A U.S. convoy was coming and the helicopters were air support. The insurgents were appearing to set up a position to jump the U.S. Forces that would be coming through. It can also be clearly seen that several of them did have AK-47s. They weren't civilians.

As for the reporters, be careful who you hang out with. If the United States had bombed an area of North Vietnam where Jane Fonda was at (oh how I wish) would our military be at fault? No. She was in a warzone.

[Sooner in Tampa]

As someone who lives and works for the U.S. Gubmint in the Intel Community...I find this thread to so absolutely funny. The ignorance spewed by the hippies is just down right hilarious!

Some of you are posting about **** so far over your head...you look like a twelve year old kid who just found the interwebs.

Now, carry on, keep posting, and I will keep laughing.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

It makes me want to puke when pols get on soapboxes about making "college affordable to all." Newsflash: A lot of people have no business in college and it is a waste of eveyone involved's time and resources to give them a shot at it.


Excluding the ones, of course, that can run with a football.

[JohnnyMack]

i'm really confused.

at what point does one stop trusting the country's leadership?

people are up in arms about letting tax cuts expire, or healthcare reform, but torture and dead civilians are okay?

aren't we supposed to be the white knight of the world? i guess we keep that image through information suppression.

We call that the neo-con paradox.

[MR2-Sooner86]

As someone who lives and works for the U.S. Gubmint in the Intel Community...I find this thread to so absolutely funny. The ignorance spewed by the hippies is just down right hilarious!

Some of you are posting about **** so far over your head...you look like a twelve year old kid who just found the interwebs.

Now, carry on, keep posting, and I will keep laughing.

http://onepeople.org/files/tin-foil-hat.jpg

You're not going to fool me Mr. Government Agent! I see right through the black helicopter you're posting from!

[okie52]

As someone who lives and works for the U.S. Gubmint in the Intel Community...I find this thread to so absolutely funny. The ignorance spewed by the hippies is just down right hilarious!

Some of you are posting about **** so far over your head...you look like a twelve year old kid who just found the interwebs.

Now, carry on, keep posting, and I will keep laughing.

You don't think Manning is a hero?

[okie52]

Excluding the ones, of course, that can run with a football.

Well, that's understood.

[Sooner in Tampa]

You don't think Manning is a hero?
You could say that...

[OutlandTrophy]

As someone who lives and works for the U.S. Gubmint in the Intel Community...I find this thread to so absolutely funny. The ignorance spewed by the hippies is just down right hilarious!

Some of you are posting about **** so far over your head...you look like a twelve year old kid who just found the interwebs.
Now, carry on, keep posting, and I will keep laughing.


they are probably posting from their tree houses!

I always wanted a tree house as a kid

[StoopTroup]

It's uncritical flag-waving morons like you who allowed the Nazis to come to power and the Communist Revolution in Russia to take hold. Our country can do no wrong, and if they're caught, blame the person telling the truth, not the people scurrying to hide it.

Try actually considering the consequences of your country's actions. Our leaders' agendas place the welfare of the United States citizen well behind other things.

You know....

Sometimes our Country isn't perfect. We have a very complicated Organized machine. Turning your back on the Flag Waving Morons (I guess that's what you think everyone is) is exactly why I'm for there being a mandatory Military Service in our Country. Nobody really learns much discipline anymore in our Schools and the Military is a great place for folks to learn about not only this Country...but other Countries around the World and to earn a bit of the freedom that allows you to say and feel the way you do. Having a mandatory service would bring many difficulties to the Leaders at the Pentagon but after a decade or so....I think it would really help our Country. It would allow folks such as yourself an opportunity to understand a bit more about how the Military is run and it will allow folks who are against serving to leave for another Country or stay and deal with it and possibly learn from it.

Many folks sacked up when they saw Hitler come to power. Many of them stayed and worked from the inside to try and stop him too. Those folks risked their lives to stop him and many of them lost their lives trying.

The guy this is about wasn't trying to stop a Government that was out of control....he interfered and exposed intel about things he was supposed to be protecting. It wasn't his call. The guy acted like a spy. If he had concerns about the materials he was seeing across his desk....he should have talked to his Superiors about it is my guess. Now....that might not have gotten him results that would have been acceptable in his eyes....but maybe he might have been moved too. There is a thing such as disinformation. Not everything is as you think it is sometimes. In his case....it's possible the military was onto him and decided to entrap him. Now it would seem his bad judgment has definitely cost him his freedom and might have cost him his life.

This guy was an idiot and you're an idiot for defending him.

[C&CDean]

It's uncritical flag-waving morons like you who allowed the Nazis to come to power and the Communist Revolution in Russia to take hold. Our country can do no wrong, and if they're caught, blame the person telling the truth, not the people scurrying to hide it.

Try actually considering the consequences of your country's actions. Our leaders' agendas place the welfare of the United States citizen well behind other things.

And I suppose it's all groovy with you if a bunch of Americans die because of the secrets this dildo leaked out - you know cause us Americans deserve it and ****.

Better yet, let's leak some secrets out that bring about America's complete downfall. Wouldn't that be bitchin'? You and the other stupid tools like you would be taking it in the pooper in a camel show in Baghdad. And you'd love it cause afterall, we're Americans and we deserve to suffer. ****ing fool.

[Midtowner]

Anecdotally speaking, all of the vets I know well, despite the fact that they listen to Glen Beck and say they'll vote for Sarah Palin should she run think what Manning did was a good thing.

Heck, one of such above-mentioned vets was a Green Beret officer in Vietnam. Doesn't get much more patriotic than that.

Perhaps one of the most central notions to the founding of this country was that the government is not to be trusted. That's why power was split up as much as it was. That's why we have things like FOIA and a wide set of sunshine laws (which are routinely ignored). "The tree of liberty must be from time to time refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

And the treason case is a tough one to make on the facts available to us, so it's unlikely that absent some sort of "accident," that Manning will have to worry about that unless we're going to get into the business of show trials.

There are a couple of problematic elements there. Probably the most of which is the fact that Manning would have to be proved to have been giving aid and comfort to the enemy. That'd basically mean that he'd have to have coordinated the leak with Al Qaeda or some analog thereof.

Of course what he allegedly did was illegal. One can be heroic and stupid at the same time (and that's probably more often the case than not), and Manning is probably both. On the facts presented, I'm sure he's violated a number of laws and won't be seeing freedom anytime soon.

[Midtowner]

And I suppose it's all groovy with you if a bunch of Americans die because of the secrets this dildo leaked out - you know cause us Americans deserve it and ****.

The Pentagon has confirmed there have been zero casualties due to these leaks. Now.. whether you can still believe anything that comes out of that organization at this point is up to you.


Better yet, let's leak some secrets out that bring about America's complete downfall. Wouldn't that be bitchin'? You and the other stupid tools like you would be taking it in the pooper in a camel show in Baghdad. And you'd love it cause afterall, we're Americans and we deserve to suffer. ****ing fool.

If the truth could possibly bring about our downfall, then we'd deserve what we had coming. That supposed information probably not existing or even possibly existing, however, I'm not too worried.

[The]

This is just the beginning. Wait until the Gays are in charge...

[MR2-Sooner86]

This is just the beginning. Wait until the Gays are in charge...

Can't be no worse than the Muslim we got in charge :eek:

[The]

Can't be no worse than the Muslim we got in charge :eek:

Yes it could.....


GAY MOOSLIN!!!!!!

[MR2-Sooner86]

Yes it could.....


GAY MOOSLIN!!!!!!

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o69/Muscletang/Mooslims.jpg

He doesn't look gay.

[The]

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o69/Muscletang/Mooslims.jpg

He doesn't look gay.

Nah, he's just Athiest Muslin Moose.

Gay Muslin Moose would not be wearing white after Labor Day.

[C&CDean]

The Pentagon has confirmed there have been zero casualties due to these leaks. Now.. whether you can still believe anything that comes out of that organization at this point is up to you.



If the truth could possibly bring about our downfall, then we'd deserve what we had coming. That supposed information probably not existing or even possibly existing, however, I'm not too worried.

You know what? You're a scary person. It's a damn good thing there ain't more than a few hundred of you loons out there. There's you, Fred Phelps, and who else?

[saucysoonergal]

You know what? You're a scary person. It's a damn good thing there ain't more than a few hundred of you loons out there. There's you, Fred Phelps, and who else?

Voldemort and his evil minions....

[C&CDean]

Yeah, Lord Voldy, this guy, and Phelps. Who else?

[Sooner in Tampa]

Anecdotally speaking, all of the vets I know well, despite the fact that they listen to Glen Beck and say they'll vote for Sarah Palin should she run think what Manning did was a good thing.

Heck, one of such above-mentioned vets was a Green Beret officer in Vietnam. Doesn't get much more patriotic than that.

Bull****...I work around ALL vets...and I have yet to find ONE that thinks what Manning did was a good thing!!!!

[Midtowner]

Being against torture makes me scary? Being generally against politicos playing asinine games with peoples' lives for zero potential payoff is a bad thing?

We were lied to in order to send us to 'Nam. The "it's my country right or wrong" crowd got their wish and 50,000 Americans died.

We were lied to in order to send us to Iraq. Same people won and what's the death toll there now? 100,000 plus?

Same for Afghanistan.

By contrast, these leaks have provided valuable information to inform the public debate about various issues and as the Pentagon has said, not one casualty has resulted.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2010/1025/Wikileaks-Iraq-documents-not-as-damaging-as-Pentagon-feared-yet

In fact, the Pentagon confirmed that all of the names of the cooperating Iraqis were redacted from the information Wikileaks released (as any other credible journalistic enterprise would have done).

So over 100,000 peoples' blood is on the hands of the government who lied to get us entangled in various foreign conflicts, who continues to ignore international law about torture, etc., versus zero blood on the hands of Wikileaks and their sources. Your decision process on how to decide someone is "scary" could use a tuneup.

[The]

Bull****...I work around ALL vets...and I have yet to find ONE that thinks what Manning did was a good thing!!!!

All of them?

[Midtowner]

Bull****...I work around ALL vets...and I have yet to find ONE that thinks what Manning did was a good thing!!!!

Well, you do work for an employer who has threatened to terminate, possibly criminally prosecute people for reading Wikileaks information, so I'm guessing a free and open debate on the merits of the subject in your place of work is less than likely to occur.

[C&CDean]

Being against torture makes me scary? Being generally against politicos playing asinine games with peoples' lives for zero potential payoff is a bad thing?

We were lied to in order to send us to 'Nam. The "it's my country right or wrong" crowd got their wish and 50,000 Americans died.

We were lied to in order to send us to Iraq. Same people won and what's the death toll there now? 100,000 plus?

Same for Afghanistan.

By contrast, these leaks have provided valuable information to inform the public debate about various issues and as the Pentagon has said, not one casualty has resulted.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2010/1025/Wikileaks-Iraq-documents-not-as-damaging-as-Pentagon-feared-yet

In fact, the Pentagon confirmed that all of the names of the cooperating Iraqis were redacted from the information Wikileaks released (as any other credible journalistic enterprise would have done).

So over 100,000 peoples' blood is on the hands of the government who lied to get us entangled in various foreign conflicts, who continues to ignore international law about torture, etc., versus zero blood on the hands of Wikileaks and their sources. Your decision process on how to decide someone is "scary" could use a tuneup.

Do you have a job?

How old are you?

[Midtowner]

31 year-old attorney.

Some folks actually do think I'm scary, but of course, I'm usually representing their exes when that happens, so...

Cue the lawyer jokes.

[C&CDean]

31 year-old attorney.

Cue the lawyer jokes.

Bucking to go to work for the ACLU no doubt.

There's a lot of **** that goes on at levels the average American person doesn't need to know about. Why? Because the average American person is a ****ing embicile who is incapable of making an intelligent choice or decision about anything. Look no further than the White House or Congress for your proof. The majority of Americans voted those tools into office.

Also, why are you hammering on Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan? Why not hammer on all the other wars our government lied to us about so we could jump in?

Also, you may know some disgruntled veteran or two with an axe to grind with his government, but they are the very, VERY few. I only know one, and he's a worthless psycho who happens to also be my cousin. Should have seen him go off when the VA cut off his pain meds.

[yermom]

so the government should never be held accountable to anyone for anything they do?

[C&CDean]

so the government should never be held accountable to anyone for anything they do?

Sure they should. And they are. Only you don't see it/read about it cause the bodies are never found.

You think everything our government does - all our intelligence gathering, etc. should be public knowledge? That's the kind of transparency you want? We'd last 2-weeks. Tops.

[Midtowner]

Bucking to go to work for the ACLU no doubt.

Would be all about that if I lived off of a trust fund.

[Midtowner]

Sure they should. And they are. Only you don't see it/read about it cause the bodies are never found.

Like the CIA officers who had a German national tortured who the government talked Germany out of prosecuting? Like Richard Holbrooke who had roles telling indefensible lies to the American public to drum up support for his wars who is now proclaimed a hero by the folks in Washington? I'm not buying this argument.


You think everything our government does - all our intelligence gathering, etc. should be public knowledge? That's the kind of transparency you want? We'd last 2-weeks. Tops.

No one is saying that. "Everything" is a pretty strong word. Should a lot more be public knowledge? Yes. Is classification used way too much? Yes.

And your hypothesis is currently being tested. All of that stuff has been released. Everyone knows it. It's been more than two weeks.

[The]

Would be all about that if I lived off of a trust fund.

You don't have a trust fund?

Are you poor or something?

[C&CDean]

Would be all about that if I lived off of a trust fund.

Well God bless your righteous little ***.

Hope you never have to face some really hard decisions. I mean life/death type stuff where you are faced with a really difficult choice (I mean other than "do we get an abortion or not?").

[The]

Well God bless your righteous little ***.

Hope you never have to face some really hard decisions. I mean life/death type stuff where you are faced with a really difficult choice (I mean other than "do we get an abortion or not?").

Are you admitting to War Crimes?

[Midtowner]

This ain't OUI, so I don't make the requisite 150K.

[C&CDean]

Against mother****ing humanity? Hells yes.

[C&CDean]

This ain't OUI, so I don't make the requisite 150K.

Chump change to me and Bruce.

[pphilfran]

Bucking to go to work for the ACLU no doubt.

There's a lot of **** that goes on at levels the average American person doesn't need to know about. Why? Because the average American person is a ****ing embicile who is incapable of making an intelligent choice or decision about anything. Look no further than the White House or Congress for your proof. The majority of Americans voted those tools into office.

Also, why are you hammering on Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan? Why not hammer on all the other wars our government lied to us about so we could jump in?

Also, you may know some disgruntled veteran or two with an axe to grind with his government, but they are the very, VERY few. I only know one, and he's a worthless psycho who happens to also be my cousin. Should have seen him go off when the VA cut off his pain meds.

So...the fed has the power to decide what the imbeciles of the country should know?

It has nothing to do with ability to grasp a government concept and everything about controlling every bit of info we hear out of DC....

I am not going to say that I side with everything Midtowner has posted...but I do know that in the past he has always been on the right track on most items he has defended....

[C&CDean]

So...the fed has the power to decide what the imbeciles of the country should know?

It has nothing to do with ability to grasp a government concept and everything about controlling every bit of info we hear out of DC....

I am not going to say that I side with everything Midtowner has posted...but I do know that in the past he has always been on the right track on most items he has defended....

Oh goody. Another lefty OUI refugee.

Yes, the fed should have the power to control what info gets out to the masses. No, they shouldn't have TOTAL control, but they damn sure should have control over sensitive intelligence.

[StoopTroup]

I guess it's not having 150K in the bank that makes a person a commie.....lol

[Midtowner]

Oh goody. Another lefty OUI refugee.

Yes, the fed should have the power to control what info gets out to the masses. No, they shouldn't have TOTAL control, but they damn sure should have control over sensitive intelligence.

So far, there's not been one single thing I'd call "sensitive intelligence" released by Wikileaks.

I stay up with the cables every day, at least skimming the headlines. There's been embarrassment aplenty and evidence of criminal behavior on our country's behalf, but nothing that will threaten the continuity of the Republic.

The First Amendment protects the freedom of the Press because our founders understood how important it was that the government actually not be in control of all of the information. Sad that it takes an international blog-like group to actually remind us of that these days.

[Midtowner]

I guess it's not having 150K in the bank that makes a person a commie.....lol

Actually no. It's an OUI joke. I'm most definitely not a commie. I'm actually a strange mix between libertarian and someone who understands what good the government can accomplish taking advantage of economies of scale. I'm not sure what label that qualifies me for. But I answer to "scary" around here apparently.

[Spring]

Only citizens should be allowed to vote or hold public office..to become a citizen you must serve in the armed forces for 4 years.

[The]

Only citizens should be allowed to vote or hold public office..to become a citizen you must serve in the armed forces for 4 years.

You don't know ****.

[The]

Actually no. It's an OUI joke. I'm most definitely not a commie. I'm actually a strange mix between libertarian and someone who understands what good the government can accomplish taking advantage of economies of scale. I'm not sure what label that qualifies me for. But I answer to "scary" around here apparently.

Atheist Mooslin Homo Military Hatin 9/11 Forgettin Nazi Commie.

[Okla-homey]

Can we at least agree on one thing? Look, even if Assange is some kind of journo with First Amendment rights to publish the material leaked to him by Manning, Manning isn't.

And regardless of whether anyone thinks the little turd is a hero, he willfully violated military regulations and US laws when he: 1) stole the material (COUNT ONE) and; 2) gave it to Assange (COUNT TWO).

Now, if Manning wants to become some kind of folk hero of the left, fine. But the way you do that is to plead "guilty" to all charges and take your punishment like a man.

[The]

Can we at least agree on one thing? Look, even if Assange is some kind of journo with First Amendment rights to publish the material leaked to him by Manning, Manning isn't.

And regardless of whether anyone thinks the little turd is a hero, he willfully violated military regulations and US law when he stole the material and gave it to Assange.

Uneducated Bigot Wingnut Redneck Fear Mongering Nazi Fascist.

[Midtowner]

Only citizens should be allowed to vote or hold public office..to become a citizen you must serve in the armed forces for 4 years.

Oh good lord. The armed services are one of the biggest problems we have. It's a big 'ol money hole that's only good for killing people and breaking things--and it's unbelievably good at that.

But this country survived for a long, long time with a relatively small military. Entering WWI, we were 18th in the world, right behind Greece.

We could probably cut about 2/3 of our military budget and be no worse for the wear. Taiwan could go to China and the Koreas could finally duke it out amongst themselves to own their peninsula. Let the Sunnis and Shia fight it out, we can send security forces to secure the oil, but that's all we need. Who cares which corrupt SOB eventually emerges to rule the desert?

Let Israel stand or fall on its own. They seem more than capable.

End ALL foreign aid payments.

Enough of this world police stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disparaging the individual sacrifices of the honorable men and women who have served. I am disparaging the overall effect of their efforts and the fact that no matter how great our military is, that we haven't accomplished an awful lot. The new Iraqi regime looks to be about as bad as the old one, Afghanistan is definitely not more safe now than it was in the past, terrorism still exists. What exactly are we mortgaging our kids' futures for?

[Midtowner]

Can we at least agree on one thing? Look, even if Assange is some kind of journo with First Amendment rights to publish the material leaked to him by Manning, Manning isn't.

And regardless of whether anyone thinks the little turd is a hero, he willfully violated military regulations and US laws when he: 1) stole the material (COUNT ONE) and; 2) gave it to Assange (COUNT TWO).

Now, if Manning wants to become some kind of folk hero of the left, fine. But the way you do that is to plead guilty and take your punishment like a man.

Agreed, except right now all of those things are alleged. I'm assuming there's evidence, probably a signed confession, but the kid has the right to the process afforded to him by the UCMJ before we run around calling him a felon.

I'm definitely no leftist, but the guy is a hero in every sense of the word. He saw some pretty serious injustice and did what he could to stop it. He's also probably an idiot.

[JohnnyMack]

Oh good lord. The armed services are one of the biggest problems we have. It's a big 'ol money hole that's only good for killing people and breaking things--and it's unbelievably good at that.

But this country survived for a long, long time with a relatively small military. Entering WWI, we were 18th in the world, right behind Greece.

We could probably cut about 2/3 of our military budget and be no worse for the wear. Taiwan could go to China and the Koreas could finally duke it out amongst themselves to own their peninsula. Let the Sunnis and Shia fight it out, we can send security forces to secure the oil, but that's all we need. Who cares which corrupt SOB eventually emerges to rule the desert?

Let Israel stand or fall on its own. They seem more than capable.

End ALL foreign aid payments.

Enough of this world police stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disparaging the individual sacrifices of the honorable men and women who have served. I am disparaging the overall effect of their efforts and the fact that no matter how great our military is, that we haven't accomplished an awful lot. The new Iraqi regime looks to be about as bad as the old one, Afghanistan is definitely not more safe now than it was in the past, terrorism still exists. What exactly are we mortgaging our kids' futures for?

http://www.funnystuffblog.com/images/redneck-sign.jpg

[Okla-homey]

Oh good lord. The armed services are one of the biggest problems we have. It's a big 'ol money hole that's only good for killing people and breaking things--and it's unbelievably good at that.

But this country survived for a long, long time with a relatively small military. Entering WWI, we were 18th in the world, right behind Greece.

True. But then something happened. The invention of carrier aviation and land-based intercontinental bombers. Later with nuclear weapons. That meant we no longer had the luxury of sheltering behind our oceans until we had time to build up our forces.



We could probably cut about 2/3 of our military budget and be no worse for the wear. Taiwan could go to China and the Koreas could finally duke it out amongst themselves to own their peninsula. Let the Sunnis and Shia fight it out, we can send security forces to secure the oil, but that's all we need. Who cares which corrupt SOB eventually emerges to rule the desert?

Let Israel stand or fall on its own. They seem more than capable.

End ALL foreign aid payments.

Enough of this world police stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disparaging the individual sacrifices of the honorable men and women who have served. I am disparaging the overall effect of their efforts and the fact that no matter how great our military is, that we haven't accomplished an awful lot. The new Iraqi regime looks to be about as bad as the old one, Afghanistan is definitely not more safe now than it was in the past, terrorism still exists. What exactly are we mortgaging our kids' futures for?

The oil still flows and no nukes have been popped since we popped two in 1945. That expensive military you disparage is why. I'd say its a pretty good bargain.

[Okla-homey]

Agreed, except right now all of those things are alleged. I'm assuming there's evidence, probably a signed confession, but the kid has the right to the process afforded to him by the UCMJ before we run around calling him a felon.

I'm definitely no leftist, but the guy is a hero in every sense of the word. He saw some pretty serious injustice and did what he could to stop it. He's also probably an idiot.

Point taken. At this point, he's merely an accused felon and traitor. I also agree he's in all likelihood a twit of the first order.

[Midtowner]

Was it Iraq, North Korea, Afghanistan or someone else who wanted to use nukes and ICBMs against us?

We had a legitimate need for all of these things when we had the Soviets as a very legitimate threat. That threat no longer exists today. Nuclear subs at this point seem a bit over the top.

[okie52]

Agreed, except right now all of those things are alleged. I'm assuming there's evidence, probably a signed confession, but the kid has the right to the process afforded to him by the UCMJ before we run around calling him a felon.

I'm definitely no leftist, but the guy is a hero in every sense of the word. He saw some pretty serious injustice and did what he could to stop it. He's also probably an idiot.

Why is he a hero? How does the US benefit from the world knowing that Hillary wanted diplomats to spy? Why is that "wrong" or a bad strategy on the part of the US?

I don't see any heroism on Manning's part...he tried to conceal his theft and his identity was only revealed by another hacker.

[Okla-homey]

Was it Iraq, North Korea, Afghanistan or someone else who wanted to use nukes and ICBMs against us?

We had a legitimate need for all of these things when we had the Soviets as a very legitimate threat. That threat no longer exists today. Nuclear subs at this point seem a bit over the top.

Do you deny that is any of these states had nukes and the means to deliver them they would hesitate to use them? As to nuke subs, beleive it or not, they are an essential element of our nuke triad and also ensure that when the PRC eventually calls our note, they won't be able to foreclose.

[okie52]

Was it Iraq, North Korea, Afghanistan or someone else who wanted to use nukes and ICBMs against us?

We had a legitimate need for all of these things when we had the Soviets as a very legitimate threat. That threat no longer exists today. Nuclear subs at this point seem a bit over the top.

They seem to be exactly what we need. Yeah, I am all for reducing the military down to half its size over the next 20 years but the subs (as long as the world has nukes) is exactly the deterent we need.

[Midtowner]

Why is he a hero? How does the US benefit from the world knowing that Hillary wanted diplomats to spy? Why is that "wrong" or a bad strategy on the part of the US?

Well, the world knowing that our diplomats are doing exactly what everyone else's diplomats are doing isn't exactly shocking. They knew this or should have known it because gathering information is probably a fairly common practice among diplomats as it is their job.


I don't see any heroism on Manning's part...he tried to conceal his theft and his identity was only revealed by another hacker.

You have your take on the story, I'll have mine.

[TitoMorelli]

He doesn't look gay.


THERE!!! SATISFIED???

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc27/dweebius/GayMooslims.jpg

[okie52]

Well, the world knowing that our diplomats are doing exactly what everyone else's diplomats are doing isn't exactly shocking. They knew this or should have known it because gathering information is probably a fairly common practice among diplomats as it is their job.



You have your take on the story, I'll have mine.

You seemed disturbed about Hillary's orders in your "list". I thought such things would be common knowledge too.

Indeed we do have a different take on Manning's actions.

[TitoMorelli]

So, okie, is another "circle-*** lunch" in the works for you, phil, profit, and others? I might try to make one in the spring if I can.

[okie52]

Sure Tito, if I can round up all of the posters. I haven't seen Profit post for a while, nor Gonzo, Nick, SoonerCruiser, etc...

[Midtowner]

You seemed disturbed about Hillary's orders in your "list". I thought such things would be common knowledge too.

Yeah, bad list, but you get the picture. This is mostly stuff that yes, is embarrassing to the government, possibly points out that several people did stuff they should be in prison for, but nothing Earth shattering in the intelligence community.

I'm sure the analysts working in foreign countries' intelligence networks absolutely hate Wikileaks because they're having to go through a bunch of innocuous crap about the Pope and child buggering or about sugar in Brazil with a fine tooth comb.

[okie52]

Yeah, bad list, but you get the picture. This is mostly stuff that yes, is embarrassing to the government, possibly points out that several people did stuff they should be in prison for, but nothing Earth shattering in the intelligence community.

I'm sure the analysts working in foreign countries' intelligence networks absolutely hate Wikileaks because they're having to go through a bunch of innocuous crap about the Pope and child buggering or about sugar in Brazil with a fine tooth comb.

I see our case against Manning, but I don't get all the furor over wikileaks publishing it. They have no obligation to the US to conceal/hold a story.

[Midtowner]

I see our case against Manning, but I don't get all the furor over wikileaks publishing it. They have no obligation to the US to conceal/hold a story.

Yeah, which is why the Justice Dept. probably won't be able to touch Wikileaks. And heck--if they do? Probably need to go after the New York Times and other media sources which have published leaked government documents too--and I guess the First Amendment free press thing is just for show?

And for what it's worth, the government teams who went around Iraq making sure their cooperating assets came to no harm due to Wikileaks had a pretty easy go of it since Wikileaks did a terrific job of redacting those sorts of details.

[okie52]

Yeah, which is why the Justice Dept. probably won't be able to touch Wikileaks. And heck--if they do? Probably need to go after the New York Times and other media sources which have published leaked government documents too--and I guess the First Amendment free press thing is just for show?

And for what it's worth, the government teams who went around Iraq making sure their cooperating assets came to no harm due to Wikileaks had a pretty easy go of it since Wikileaks did a terrific job of redacting those sorts of details.

I am not sure how US law affects a company that is not a domestic one unless there is some international law governing the conduct of news sources which seems unlikely.

I am glad the damage appears to be minimal in Iraq.

[Midtowner]

I am not sure how US law affects a company that is not a domestic one unless there is some international law governing the conduct of news sources which seems unlikely.

I am glad the damage appears to be minimal in Iraq.

They can be charged in the U.S. for any law applicable, and if the extradition treaty is good enough to get that person detained and extradited, then I don't see why they can't be extradited and tried.

Jurisdiction is an issue, of course, and then there is the issue of applying the facts to the question at hand.

The Justice Dept. might be very concerned about discovering that the Espionage Act is toothless in this situation as the SCOTUS has been very pro-First Amendment. We've already discussed the fact that the case would likely fail on the facts if treason was the charge, so it may be unclear what Wikileaks, et al could even be charged with.

[okie52]

They can be charged in the U.S. for any law applicable, and if the extradition treaty is good enough to get that person detained and extradited, then I don't see why they can't be extradited and tried.

Jurisdiction is an issue, of course, and then there is the issue of applying the facts to the question at hand.

The Justice Dept. might be very concerned about discovering that the Espionage Act is toothless in this situation as the SCOTUS has been very pro-First Amendment. We've already discussed the fact that the case would likely fail on the facts if treason was the charge, so it may be unclear what Wikileaks, et al could even be charged with.


So lets say a Austrian newspaper gets hold of classified US documents and publishes them, they are then possibly guilty of breaking a US law even though no such state law in Austria governs such an act...other than possible extradition processes.

By the same virtue, if I break an Austrian law while living in the US I might be subject to prosecution in Austria for something that was not a crime in the US?

[Midtowner]

So lets say a Austrian newspaper gets hold of classified US documents and publishes them, they are then possibly guilty of breaking a US law even though no such state law in Austria governs such an act...other than possible extradition processes.

By the same virtue, if I break an Austrian law while living in the US I might be subject to prosecution in Austria for something that was not a crime in the US?

Now you see why the Justice Department hasn't charged Assange with anything.

But yes, theoretically, a country can prosecute anyone for anything any time. The only question is whether they can get physical custody of that person and whether they can make the law and facts work.

A lot of folks think of the law as some sort of amorphous and godlike thing. In reality, it's an amalgamation of ~18,000 pages of rules which can make damn near anything illegal.

[SCOUT]

Yep. Your country is capable of doing some effed up things. God bless the folks who try to stand in the way of that happening.


Still curious. Which country do you claim as home?

[Midtowner]

Still curious. Which country do you claim as home?

http://whoinvented.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/american-flag.jpg

[The]

http://i.imgur.com/b0HOo.jpg

[pphilfran]

Oh goody. Another lefty OUI refugee.

Yes, the fed should have the power to control what info gets out to the masses. No, they shouldn't have TOTAL control, but they damn sure should have control over sensitive intelligence.

A great majority of the time I am called a right wing, war monger...

[okie52]

A great majority of the time I am called a right wing, war monger...

And rightly so ;)

[Sooner in Tampa]

A great majority of the time I am called a right wing, war monger...
Awesome...we need more here...the libtards are multiplying

[sappstuf]

A great majority of the time I am called a right wing, war monger...

But with cool graphs...

[MrJimBeam]

Yeah, bad list, but you get the picture. This is mostly stuff that yes, is embarrassing to the government, possibly points out that several people did stuff they should be in prison for, but nothing Earth shattering in the intelligence community.

I'm sure the analysts working in foreign countries' intelligence networks absolutely hate Wikileaks because they're having to go through a bunch of innocuous crap about the Pope and child buggering or about sugar in Brazil with a fine tooth comb.

So is Manning a hero for what he leaked or because he got caught leaking it and is now in the brig? We are desperate for a hero if this is the criteria.

[Midtowner]

So is Manning a hero for what he leaked or because he got caught leaking it and is now in the brig? We are desperate for a hero if this is the criteria.

No, it's because he took great personal risk to try and right a wrong his country was committing.

[olevetonahill]

Ya Know, Ive heard that if ya keep saying the same shat over an over You might just start believing the shat yer sayin and you may even convince another idjit er 2 along the way.:rolleyes:

[2121Sooner]

I can only imagine some of the things that would have gotten leaked in prior wars the US has fought.

[Midtowner]

I can only imagine some of the things that would have gotten leaked in prior wars the US has fought.

What usually happens is all of the damaging stuff becomes public x number of years past the date it was produced. The goal being to make sure anyone who had a part in its creation is dead by the time it becomes public.

[2121Sooner]

What usually happens is all of the damaging stuff becomes public x number of years past the date it was produced. The goal being to make sure anyone who had a part in its creation is dead by the time it becomes public.



So about 40 years after Obama is dead we are gonna get to see his Kenyan birth certificate?


Cool.

[Midtowner]

So about 40 years after Obama is dead we are gonna get to see his Kenyan birth certificate?


Cool.

Who knows? It may be released any day now by the wikileaks folks.

Then a lot of you would change your assessments about this whole incident I'm sure.

[C&CDean]

Who knows? It may be released any day now by the wikileaks folks.

Then a lot of you would change your assessments about this whole incident I'm sure.

Give it a ****ing rest. It ain't about wikileaks. It's about the traitorous little coward who violated the UCMJ. Your hero. Meh. Bet you can't wait till you have kids and they become treasonous little pinkos. Then you can go "look at my little comrade, ain't he sweet?" Meh again.

[olevetonahill]

Naw Dean, His kids will be the little snitch bastards thats always gettin the shat beat out of em.;)

[TitoMorelli]

Still curious. Which country do you claim as home?


http://whoinvented.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/american-flag.jpg

So you're in favor of torching our flag too? ;)

[Midtowner]

Wow.. are you guys for real? Do you even read what I write? I agree that Manning should be punished to the full extent of the law.

I also think what he did was heroic. As a lawyer, I can tell you that the law sometimes produces some pretty immoral results. Take all of this tort reform nonsense, for example. Lets some folks who do very bad things get away with paying a lot less than they should pay--not to mention the fact that some of these proposals I'm reading about would essentially allow oil and gas producers to uniformly underpay on royalties and the royalty owners (being deprived of class action suits) would really have no way of effectively going after them.

Take criminal law for example--recall the 17-year-old Georgia kid, Genarlow Wilson who had consensual sex with a 15-year-old and was found guilty of aggravated child molestation. Spent two years in the pokey before the case was overturned on appeal.

Manning's case isn't like that, and obviously the government has a clear responsibility to prosecute this case, and given what we know the allegations are, they'll more than likely get a conviction. That doesn't make them morally right.

[C&CDean]

So, is Charles Manson your hero too? How about Timothy McVeigh? Sure he should be punished, but hot damn he's heroic. Sheesh.

Where the **** do you come from anyhow? Mars?

[StoopTroup]

Manning's case isn't like that, and obviously the government has a clear responsibility to prosecute this case, and given what we know the allegations are, they'll more than likely get a conviction. That doesn't make them morally right.

Protecting all Americans and expecting guys like Manning with a Top Secret Security Clearance to protect information that has to do with our National Security is morally right.

You're completely wrong regarding this guy. He's lucky he's getting his day in Court IMO. During War Military's might not even look into it when a guy owns up to being a traitor like Manning did. They might just march him out...shoot him and send his Parent's notice of his death.

[2121Sooner]

Wow.. are you guys for real? Do you even read what I write? I agree that Manning should be punished to the full extent of the law.

I also think what he did was heroic. As a lawyer, I......


This explains a lot......

[The]

I bet you people hate Jane Fonda, too.

Haters.

[StoopTroup]

I bet you people hate Jane Fonda, too.

Haters.

I think a good portion of us think she should have moved to North Vietnam a long time ago.

[pphilfran]

Midtowner..

Let's see if I got this right...

The fed has been known to lie and/ or withhold complete information...hell, that is the way they do business...and they are proud of it...

The fed has also been known to perform heinous (I like that word) acts...

At some point in time there will be some person (fed employee or not) that will come across some classified actions that they feel are illegal or unethical...

Now, they are at a crossroads...stfu...squawk to your superior (and who knows, he may be part of the action in concern)...or try to get the info out by use of other methods...

Now this guy knew exactly what he was getting into...I don't know if it was for money or he just wanted to get out info that he felt was beyond what was ethical...I don't know if he was a tin foil hat guy...

In the future if we never had people that stand up for their beliefs and allow questionable actions to go uncovered...where would we be...where would the fed then move to in future actions?

My biggest concern is why is was so easy for the guy to pull the info...how can classified or top secret (whatever it was) info be so easily copied? How can info that could "get somebody killed" be open to so many people and easily accessible? And why the hell was 99% of the info still listed as classified?

I won't go so far as to call the guy a hero but he damn sure opened up a can of worms that the fed can't ignore...

[Midtowner]

You're completely wrong regarding this guy. He's lucky he's getting his day in Court IMO. During War Military's might not even look into it when a guy owns up to being a traitor like Manning did. They might just march him out...shoot him and send his Parent's notice of his death.

Our military is pretty obsessed with protocol, even during wartime. This sort of thing may have happened with the Red Army (any of them) or some 3rd world country, but not here.

[2121Sooner]

Midtowner, I am not going to argue this point with you nor offer much of an argument because you believe one way and nobody will persuade you either way because you are so intellectually superior to all of us.

We can only aspire to have your perspective.

[Midtowner]

In the future if we never had people that stand up for their beliefs and allow questionable actions to go uncovered...where would we be...where would the fed then move to in future actions?

This is the concern, and it's very valid. The traditional media sure as hell isn't doing its job, so we get Wikileaks.

The irony here is pretty substantial if you think about it. We have a government, who in this information age has basically informed us that we no longer have any expectation of privacy, that they will do whatever they damn well please, that they'll take nekkid pictures of us in the airports, etc.

Funny how that information age thing is a two way street.


My biggest concern is why is was so easy for the guy to pull the info...how can classified or top secret (whatever it was) info be so easily copied? How can info that could "get somebody killed" be open to so many people and easily accessible? And why the hell was 99% of the info still listed as classified?

I won't go so far as to call the guy a hero but he damn sure opened up a can of worms that the fed can't ignore...

Yeah, reading these cables as they come out, it's silly that some of this stuff was classified.

And as far as security goes, nothing on a computer is ever 100% secure. I imagine if Pvt. Bradley Manning could obtain access to this, a network full of Chinese hackers could probably have done the same thing.

[JohnnyMack]

Critical thinking is something we should all aspire towards, no?

[2121Sooner]

And as far as security goes, nothing on a computer is ever 100% secure. I imagine if Pvt. Bradley Manning could obtain access to this, a network full of Chinese hackers could probably have done the same thing.

But yet they didnt......interesting.



And they would have called the site "WikiReaks"

[Midtowner]

But yet they didnt......interesting.

1) You don't know that.

2) From what we've seen, it wouldn't have been worth the effort anyhow.

[StoopTroup]

Our military is pretty obsessed with protocol, even during wartime. This sort of thing may have happened with the Red Army (any of them) or some 3rd world country, but not here.

I think the guy is just lucky it wasn't the Korean War. Thinks may have changed, yes. However...The last two Wars we started...we were really never in danger of losing or had to use resources that would require such decisions to be made. Pretty crazy to think it couldn't happen.

[MR2-Sooner86]

I think a good portion of us think she should have been brought back to the states, gang raped by a bunch of convicts as they beat her face, spit on, **** on, pissed on, drug through the mud, shot in both knees, and finally hung with her intestines ripped through her ***.

:eek:

[Sooner in Tampa]

I also think what he did was heroic. As a lawyer (I should have stopped reading right there...)

That doesn't make them morally right.
It's now heroic to break laws that you don't think are right? Hmmmm, interesting...I wonder where THAT line is drawn?

Here is a hot flash for ya Mr. Morally High and Mighty...a low life ****ing Pvt in the Army doesn't know **** from shinola...and he damn sure doesn't know what should and shouldn't be classified. He is lucky if he can chew bubble gum and walk at the same time.

He was briefed and signed documentation that he would NOT release classified information...pretty simple in my book! He broke the law...do not pass go, do not collect $200, and by the way...you get to live with Bubba for the rest of your life...your his new bitch.

[Midtowner]

It's now heroic to break laws that you don't think are right? Hmmmm, interesting...I wonder where THAT line is drawn?

You could ask Rosa Parks.

And I offer that name not for the purpose of saying that the overclassification of documents is as bad as segregation, but to illustrate that yes, we can all agree that sometimes, breaking the law is heroic.

[Turd_Ferguson]

You could ask Rosa Parks.No you can't dip ****, she's dead.

[Sooner in Tampa]

You could ask Rosa Parks.

And I offer that name not for the purpose of saying that the overclassification of documents is as bad as segregation, but to illustrate that yes, we can all agree that sometimes, breaking the law is heroic.
You really are coocoo for Cocoa Puffs AND a total dip****...but we already know that.

[olevetonahill]

No you can't dip ****, she's dead.

Heh, this dude gives Lawyers a bad name :pop:

[The]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2245/2466195946_824b895a19.jpg
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2245/2466195946_824b895a19.jpg?v=0)

[Midtowner]

No you can't dip ****, she's dead.

Figure of speech. Don't be so literal.

What Rosa Parks did was at once illegal and noble, agree or disagree?

[Turd_Ferguson]

Figure of speech. Don't be so literal.

What Rosa Parks did was at once illegal and noble, agree or disagree?You ain't suck'n me in on this one sparky...and don't call me literal, I'm a conservative.

[Sooner in Tampa]

Figure of speech. Don't be so literal.

What Rosa Parks did was at once illegal and noble, agree or disagree?

Apples to oranges...try another line of questioning counselor.

[The]

Apples to oranges...try another line of questioning counselor.

You're cute when you pretend to be clever.

[Turd_Ferguson]

You're cute when you pretend to be clever.Your ugly when you pretend to be cute.

[The]

Your ugly when you pretend to be cute.

Pretending is for children. I don't pretend anything.

[Turd_Ferguson]

Pretending is for children. I don't pretend anything.Yes you do.

[The]

Yes you do.

No I don't.

[Turd_Ferguson]

No I don't.I'm over you.

[The]

I'm over you.

No you're not.

[Sooner in Tampa]

You're cute when you pretend to be clever.
You're a pain the ***...as usual...and quite unfunny...again, as usual

[Turd_Ferguson]

No you're not.Liar!

[The]

You're a pain the ***...as usual...and quite unfunny...again, as usual

Why don't you go beat off to Roadhouse some more?


Liar!

I never lie.

[MrJimBeam]

No, it's because he took great personal risk to try and right a wrong his country was committing.

Manning leaks the cables because of his disgust over the videos of "jounalist" and civilians being killed by US service men. I'm not sure how long he was in the Army before being station in Kuiwat but I find it hard to believe he did not have an understanding to the nature of war. I guess rightous indignation led him to leak videos of horrors that have taken place on the battlefield since the beginging of time, not to mention 250,000 classified documents. I halfway want to think the guy joined the Army just to pull off something like this. He joined the Army believing he was joining the greatest threat to mankind the earth has ever know, this was his chance to show the rest of the world. Do his part to change it. He hasn't really leaked anything we didn't know was going on or couldn't guess on our own. You didn't know we were fighting a clandestine war in Pakistan? Where you been? As far as spying on the UN, hell I'd be dissapointed if we weren't, we got'em right there in NYC.

[yermom]

the fact that he did something illegal might put him in jail, but that doesn't decide morality

[The]

I didn't read the thread, but has anyone brought up how stupid the Army was in letting a private (what I'm assuming is the lowest rank, because that's what it is in Call of Duty) not only have access to these documents, but to be alone with them?

[Sooner in Tampa]

Why don't you go beat off to Roadhouse some more?


Aren't you late for stu's scat party? Run along little man

[The]

Aren't you late for stu's scat party? Run along little man

HERP A DERPA SCARY CLOWNS.

[okie52]

Wow.. are you guys for real? Do you even read what I write? I agree that Manning should be punished to the full extent of the law.

I also think what he did was heroic. As a lawyer, I can tell you that the law sometimes produces some pretty immoral results. Take all of this tort reform nonsense, for example. Lets some folks who do very bad things get away with paying a lot less than they should pay--not to mention the fact that some of these proposals I'm reading about would essentially allow oil and gas producers to uniformly underpay on royalties and the royalty owners (being deprived of class action suits) would really have no way of effectively going after them.

Take criminal law for example--recall the 17-year-old Georgia kid, Genarlow Wilson who had consensual sex with a 15-year-old and was found guilty of aggravated child molestation. Spent two years in the pokey before the case was overturned on appeal.

Manning's case isn't like that, and obviously the government has a clear responsibility to prosecute this case, and given what we know the allegations are, they'll more than likely get a conviction. That doesn't make them morally right.

Tort reform silly? I would love to see loser pays become the practice in this country. You could leave everything else just like it is now if that became law and I would be very satisfied.

[Midtowner]

Tort reform silly? I would love to see loser pays become the practice in this country. You could leave everything else just like it is now if that became law and I would be very satisfied.

Have you ever had to sue an insurance company? I've done it lots of times. First, the insurance company has basically unlimited money to play with, so losing a few is no big deal. Insurance is still one of the most profitable business models around.

There's a joke in the Plaintiff's Bar--have you ever seen an insurance defense lawyer show up to a deposition or court appearance? Answer: No--it's usually two or three. Those firms are set up to bill the holy hell out of their clients. They bill at reduced rates, but they make up for it in time spent and bringing unnecessary lawyers to depositions and such.

Plaintiffs on the other hand are typically middle class people who already have been injured in some way. Not usually people of significant means. Plaintiffs' attorneys are in the case because it's a business decision to be in the case. They figure if they put in the time and the money (the attorney usually fronts all of the court costs), then they'll somehow, someday end up with a profit. You take good cases and you make money. Simple as that (which is why I roll my eyes every time I see someone complaining about these so-called frivolous lawsuits).

At any rate, with loser pays, do you think the multi-million dollar companies are going to be deterred from litigation? Nope. They'll use it to run up costs and use them as leverage in pushing the Plaintiff into an unfavorable settlement. Especially if the Plaintiff has declared bankruptcy recently.

Read a little, think a little more about the subject. Do we want to limit people's access to the courts in order to redress grievances? Or do we want possibly a few bad cases to be filed where the attorneys are going to lose money anyhow?

Remember, good cases do lose. In things like medmal, more often than they should, because they come down to a judgment call by the jury. And let's look at how uneven the playing field is there--Defense experts are a dime a dozen. Any doctor can be a defense expert so long as they meet the qualifications. For Plaintiff experts, it's a whole 'nother ball game. In Oklahoma, PLICO, the insurer for the vast majority of docs has a policy of dropping any doctor from its policy who testifies against another insured. That means that typically, we have to go out of state for experts and they end up being the so-called "hired guns" because that's all there is.

There are other such barriers, that's just one. None of these measures are aimed at making things fair for both sides or more efficient or any of that. It's all about screwing the little guy to benefit multibillion dollar industries.

[Midtowner]

You ain't suck'n me in on this one sparky...and don't call me literal, I'm a conservative.

I'll take your lack of answer as an affirmative that you believe that what Rosa Parks did was both illegal and noble. Unless you are some sort of white supremacist. The former assumption is probably safer than the later, right?

And it's literal, not liberal. Thanks for confirming that you guys aren't actually reading what I'm writing.

And conservative jurists tend to be literalists, but that's a whole 'nother thing.

[2121Sooner]

I'll take your lack of answer as an affirmative that you believe that what Rosa Parks did was both illegal and noble. Unless you are some sort of white supremacist. The former assumption is probably safer than the later, right?
.



I think Rosa Parks was just being uppity.

[Midtowner]

Manning leaks the cables because of his disgust over the videos of "jounalist" and civilians being killed by US service men. I'm not sure how long he was in the Army before being station in Kuiwat but I find it hard to believe he did not have an understanding to the nature of war. I guess rightous indignation led him to leak videos of horrors that have taken place on the battlefield since the beginging of time, not to mention 250,000 classified documents. I halfway want to think the guy joined the Army just to pull off something like this. He joined the Army believing he was joining the greatest threat to mankind the earth has ever know, this was his chance to show the rest of the world. Do his part to change it. He hasn't really leaked anything we didn't know was going on or couldn't guess on our own. You didn't know we were fighting a clandestine war in Pakistan? Where you been? As far as spying on the UN, hell I'd be dissapointed if we weren't, we got'em right there in NYC.

Well, I do differ with you about the importance of this. In the past, we'd confirm with "anonymous sources" that the U.S. was engaged in some questionable activity. The U.S. would then categorically deny it, and we're left at making a judgment call on the truth of the matter.

I agree this isn't such a big deal as the Pentagon Papers were, and we really don't know what else is still waiting to be released as the Wikileaks folks are categorizing these things, summarizing them and placing them into a searchable database bit by bit.

But it does open a can of worms and it hopefully makes our civilian and military leaders think twice before they do something they probably ought not do.

Like I've said before, I think the kid is a heroic character, but he's also obviously deranged or stupid or both.

[soonerboy_odanorth]

I LOVE this thread!

Both sides of the argument really serve to illustrate we ALL do in fact believe in freedom of the press and government transparency. The question is simply to what degree? There is right, left, and middle in this thread. BRAVO!

For the brainwashed troglodyte conservatives, WikiLeaks has served its purpose as has this traitor. The leaks do give us just enough of a glimpse that, yes, maybe we should re-examine some of our policies and clean some things up here and there. And actually, the leaks reinforce that we are in fact doing a "good" job of getting after it on the world stage. (And too bad if the granola crunchers don't see it that way, harumph!) And gosh, we can't fix a security leak if we don't know we have one.

For the unwashed and slightly dazed hippies, WikiLeaks has served its purpose as has this traitor. We can rest assure that our free press will in fact address these matters in the public forum and that there are those brave souls out there that will "keep our government honest", even if it does require an act of treason. Caveat being that those persons may have to rightfully pay a penalty for those acts. And we should be further reassured that despite our government's shortcomings, we are in fact a free society, otherwise the jack-booted Commie thugs would have already beaten down our doors and dragged us off to the gulag for the positions we are taking.

That's my Polyanna speech.

Now for my completely worthless opinion:

Yes, we are supposed to be better than the Commie thugs and the terrorists...by a large margin. And I would propose to you that we are.

But it is time some of you realized that in order to corral the bad guys and to protect not only our physical but economic security, you just have to put on the haz-mat suit and jump down in the sewer to go get the ne'er-do-wells. It's just the reality of our human condition. If we don't play dirty, we'll be the only ones who aren't and we'll get a lot of dirty sand kicked in our faces if we just sit there and take it.

By the way, everyone does remember what playing nice (or nicer) on the world stage got us Sept. 11, 2001, I presume? It was not only an attack on our physical but economic security. If I recall, some economists were stating it would take us 10-15 years to rebound economically from that disaster. How are we doing now in year 2010?

We have to do what we can to prevent that from happening again. Again, that's reality.

In this world, better the devil you know, than the one you don't.

I'll take ours vs. my wife being forced to goose-step through central Pyongyang or wear a burka.

If that makes me a right wing lemming... well, then *meep* *meep*.

(I don't know if *meep* *meep* is the sound lemmings make, but I'll go with it.)

[okie52]

Have you ever had to sue an insurance company? I've done it lots of times. First, the insurance company has basically unlimited money to play with, so losing a few is no big deal. Insurance is still one of the most profitable business models around.

Heh heh. Yes I've sued an insurance company and I have also been an agent for a major insurer for the last 24 years. My "lawyer" advised me we needed to go after big money since that is the only way an insurance company learns a lesson, by losing big money. Of course his contingency fee had nothing to do with it.

There's a joke in the Plaintiff's Bar--have you ever seen an insurance defense lawyer show up to a deposition or court appearance? Answer: No--it's usually two or three. Those firms are set up to bill the holy hell out of their clients. They bill at reduced rates, but they make up for it in time spent and bringing unnecessary lawyers to depositions and such.

Plaintiffs on the other hand are typically middle class people who already have been injured in some way. Not usually people of significant means. Plaintiffs' attorneys are in the case because it's a business decision to be in the case. They figure if they put in the time and the money (the attorney usually fronts all of the court costs), then they'll somehow, someday end up with a profit. You take good cases and you make money. Simple as that (which is why I roll my eyes every time I see someone complaining about these so-called frivolous lawsuits).

Ha ha. The poor attorney that took the case only out of the goodness of his heart, to help the little guy, punish the insurance company but is willing to stick his neck out for a mere 30-40% contingency fee. Now how many cases are settled before they go to trial? Why would an insurance company settle if they ALSO have the winning hand should a case come to trial? Because they weigh the costs of the claim vs the costs of litigation. There is no point in winning against the claim if they are going to eat a similar amount in legal fees.

At any rate, with loser pays, do you think the multi-million dollar companies are going to be deterred from litigation? Nope. They'll use it to run up costs and use them as leverage in pushing the Plaintiff into an unfavorable settlement. Especially if the Plaintiff has declared bankruptcy recently.

See above. The company I work for wins 90% of the cases that ever go to trial. Why is that? Just because they have the best lawyers? Of course not.
They win because they only go to trial when they are almost certain of a victory and plaintiff lawyers got greedy instead of settling like most of the litigation concerning claims involving insurance companies. Insurance companies know that jury awards are often ludicrous in the amounts that are given and they don't want to face that prospect unless they are absolutely certain of the verdict.

Read a little, think a little more about the subject. Do we want to limit people's access to the courts in order to redress grievances? Or do we want possibly a few bad cases to be filed where the attorneys are going to lose money anyhow?

Nothing deters a trial lawyer from pursuing his contingency fee, hence, if the case has merits they will still pursue it. On the other hand, an innocent person or company is restored to whole rather than being bankrupt in the process of defending himself/itself which to me is what the issue is really all about. Now the trial lawyers cry a river at the thought that they will be responsible for another's court costs. I have trial lawyers tell me that is "just the cost of doing business" when legal fees are eaten by both sides but throw their neck on the line and hear the whining.

Remember, good cases do lose. In things like medmal, more often than they should, because they come down to a judgment call by the jury. And let's look at how uneven the playing field is there--Defense experts are a dime a dozen. Any doctor can be a defense expert so long as they meet the qualifications. For Plaintiff experts, it's a whole 'nother ball game. In Oklahoma, PLICO, the insurer for the vast majority of docs has a policy of dropping any doctor from its policy who testifies against another insured. That means that typically, we have to go out of state for experts and they end up being the so-called "hired guns" because that's all there is.

That cuts both ways. The list of known testifiers for the plaintiffs is equally as long. The term ambulance chasers didn't happen by accident nor do the endless ads by ambulance chasers on TV continue on such a large scale because it is an unprofitable business.

There are other such barriers, that's just one. None of these measures are aimed at making things fair for both sides or more efficient or any of that. It's all about screwing the little guy to benefit multibillion dollar industries.

Please, to have such a one sided view is just spewing trial lawyer dogma. Europe has been living with "loser pays" for decades. All that is really happening is that a trial lawyer will think twice about pursuing a case if he is at risk....the same as his targets and an innocent party will actually be restored to whole. And there are significantly lower case loads in Europe than in the US. And who do you think ultimately picks up these costs for legal expenses....hopefully you guessed the consumer because they are quite often paying for the "trial lawyers" day in court.

And we have only addressed the cases involving insurance companies. What about the civil suits that are individuals opposing each other? Certainly there is often no deep pockets for many of these individuals and an innocent party may go bankrupt in proving his innocence or making his case. That shouldn't be the case but you don't hear the "trial lawyers" worrying about this little guy.

.

[Midtowner]

Heh heh. Yes I've sued an insurance company and I have also been an agent for a major insurer for the last 24 years. My "lawyer" advised me we needed to go after big money since that is the only way an insurance company learns a lesson, by losing big money. Of course his contingency fee had nothing to do with it.

Since I don't know the facts of the case, I can't pass judgment on whether that is good advice. Of course, philosophically speaking, it ain't about money, it's about paying the Plaintiff enough to make him whole.


Ha ha. The poor attorney that took the case only out of the goodness of his heart, to help the little guy, punish the insurance company but is willing to stick his neck out for a mere 30-40% contingency fee.

No one said attorneys do their job for completely altruistic reasons. We are all in business to make money. Does an attorney not deserve to be compensated for their efforts? Are you saying your attorney didn't work hard for you?


Now how many cases are settled before they go to trial?

Definitely the VAST majority. Probably approaching 99% if I had to guess.


Why would an insurance company settle if they ALSO have the winning hand should a case come to trial? Because they weigh the costs of the claim vs the costs of litigation. There is no point in winning against the claim if they are going to eat a similar amount in legal fees.

Not necessarily true. Insurance companies have a budget for legal defense and quick settlements are becoming low ball or nothing lately. The current strategy, it seems, is to force Plaintiffs to take low settlements or try their luck in court. That'd become much more exaggerated if we had a loser-pays system.


See above. The company I work for wins 90% of the cases that ever go to trial. Why is that? Just because they have the best lawyers? Of course not.

Do you think they should win 90%? Do you think Plaintiff's attorneys want to waste their time with losing cases? Of course not. Juries are funny creatures, and in Conservative Oklahoma, they are very anti-Plaintiff. Notoriously so. That affects settlement offers as well as outcomes of cases. Out of curiosity, what is defined as "winning"? And what is your source for that stat? I've found the vast majority of insurance company stats in favor of tort reform to be either founded on biased data or outright false.

Is this stat based on medmal cases where Plaintiffs have to sue several individuals in order to do discovery to figure out who they really want to sue, dismiss the parties who weren't responsible and move on? Does that count as a victory? If so, I could see that as a pretty common practice because there's really no other way to get your case properly investigated without doing that. What if the statute of limitations runs while the case is still in discovery and you haven't sued a responsible party?


They win because they only go to trial when they are almost certain of a victory and plaintiff lawyers got greedy instead of settling like most of the litigation concerning claims involving insurance companies. Insurance companies know that jury awards are often ludicrous in the amounts that are given and they don't want to face that prospect unless they are absolutely certain of the verdict.

Runaway jury awards are extremely rare. Pretty much non-existent. And even when they do happen, judges will almost always lower the award. THis concern of runaway juries is basically not true at all.

And are Plaintiffs being greedy or insurance companies offering lowball amounts? In my experience, it's the later.


Nothing deters a trial lawyer from pursuing his contingency fee, hence, if the case has merits they will still pursue it. On the other hand, an innocent person or company is restored to whole rather than being bankrupt in the process of defending himself/itself which to me is what the issue is really all about.

Sure it does. It's an economic decision. I'm not going to waste my time on a case I'm going to lose. Especially if it's going to cost me a fortune to do it. That's not rational. Your assertion that people behave irrationally here is just absurd.


[quote]Now the trial lawyers cry a river at the thought that they will be responsible for another's court costs. I have trial lawyers tell me that is "just the cost of doing business" when legal fees are eaten by both sides but throw their neck on the line and hear the whining.

This is about insurance companies. They are the ones lobbying for this, not folks who probably think they'll never be sued. Someone has to pay for the lawyers. It's hard work, you have to go to school for a long time and there's a lot of personal exposure in that line of work.


That cuts both ways. The list of known testifiers for the plaintiffs is equally as long.

No, it's not.


The term ambulance chasers didn't happen by accident nor do the endless ads by ambulance chasers on TV continue on such a large scale because it is an unprofitable business.

They wouldn't be necessary if insurance companies would just deal fairly with people. Take my most recent PI case (I don't do much contingency work). She tried to take care of it herself. She's an educated woman, a college professor. She compiled all of her medical bills, sent in a very well done demand letter, better than what a lot of lawyers would do, and the adjuster just gave her the run around. She came in to see us a month before the statute of limitations ran. A week into the case, we found that the policy limits for the insured didn't even come up to her actuals.

Now why on Earth would an adjuster, given a stack of bills which exceeded the insured's liability not just make a policy limits offer? Simple. She was trying to give my client the run around to try to run out the clock and pay nothing. Two weeks into the case, we have a check. Clearly the insurance company in question has decided that since it costs nothing for them to deal with attorneys that they'd rather screw individuals around to try to run out SOLs than just pay on easy cases.


Please, to have such a one sided view is just spewing trial lawyer dogma. Europe has been living with "loser pays" for decades.

And our system is better. In our system, we want to encourage injured people to pursue being made whole. It's a system that favors the little guy.


All that is really happening is that a trial lawyer will think twice about pursuing a case if he is at risk....

But he's not. The client is. Attorneys are never at risk in these cases.


And we have only addressed the cases involving insurance companies. What about the civil suits that are individuals opposing each other?

Comparatively, those are extremely rare.


Certainly there is often no deep pockets for many of these individuals and an innocent party may go bankrupt in proving his innocence or making his case. That shouldn't be the case but you don't hear the "trial lawyers" worrying about this little guy.

Actually, I routinely advise people that though they may win their case, it's going to cost them more than the case is worth and at any rate, they'll never see a dime.

For example, if you came into my office wanting to sue the uninsured illegal immigrant who ran into your car, I'd give you the name of a cheap body shop and tell you that it probably wasn't worth your time or money. I'd give you the day the statue of limitations runs and send you on your merry way. Most lawyers would do that, and if one did otherwise, I too would question his ethics.

[The]

Jesus Christ walking down Chatauqua with Hare Krishna, that's a long post...

[olevetonahill]

Jesus Christ walking down Chatauqua with Hare Krishna, that's a long post...

Midtown gets paid by the word.:rolleyes:

[okie52]

Since I don't know the facts of the case, I can't pass judgment on whether that is good advice. Of course, philosophically speaking, it ain't about money, it's about paying the Plaintiff enough to make him whole.

It should be about making the victorious party whole, whomever that be.



No one said attorneys do their job for completely altruistic reasons. We are all in business to make money. Does an attorney not deserve to be compensated for their efforts? Are you saying your attorney didn't work hard for you?

It isn't the attorney is there for the little guy, he is also there for the big guy if he is getting paid for it.

Definitely the VAST majority. Probably approaching 99% if I had to guess.



Not necessarily true. Insurance companies have a budget for legal defense and quick settlements are becoming low ball or nothing lately. The current strategy, it seems, is to force Plaintiffs to take low settlements or try their luck in court. That'd become much more exaggerated if we had a loser-pays system.

You seem to be speaking about medmal cases...I am talking primarily about P & C claims.



Do you think they should win 90%? Do you think Plaintiff's attorneys want to waste their time with losing cases? Of course not. Juries are funny creatures, and in Conservative Oklahoma, they are very anti-Plaintiff. Notoriously so. That affects settlement offers as well as outcomes of cases. Out of curiosity, what is defined as "winning"? And what is your source for that stat? I've found the vast majority of insurance company stats in favor of tort reform to be either founded on biased data or outright false.

Is this stat based on medmal cases where Plaintiffs have to sue several individuals in order to do discovery to figure out who they really want to sue, dismiss the parties who weren't responsible and move on? Does that count as a victory? If so, I could see that as a pretty common practice because there's really no other way to get your case properly investigated without doing that. What if the statute of limitations runs while the case is still in discovery and you haven't sued a responsible party?

See above. I am primarily addressing P & C claims and the information and/or strategy has been given me by our claims office. They certainly make a business decision about litigation vs the claim exposure they are defending.

Runaway jury awards are extremely rare. Pretty much non-existent. And even when they do happen, judges will almost always lower the award. THis concern of runaway juries is basically not true at all.

And are Plaintiffs being greedy or insurance companies offering lowball amounts? In my experience, it's the later.

Well in your experience as a trial lawyer of course it is. Having seen thousands of claims over the years I have seen insurers make mistakes and I have certainly seen trial lawyers be greedy and unreasonable.

Take for instance the worst liabilty law on the books which was put there by trial attorneys in our state legislatures....Uninsured motorist coverage. For many years every time a new policy was written or a car was added to a policy the policy holder had to sign a UM form indicating he was declining coverage or taking it in an amount lower than his liability limits. Sounds reasonable, right? Except that if the policy holder never mailed in the UM form he was covered just the same as his liability limits even though he never paid the premium for the coverage. And, insurance companies couldn't add the coverage until they received the form because they could be liable for bad faith. Perfect for trial attorneys but not so good for the insurance companies and/or consumers.

Sure it does. It's an economic decision. I'm not going to waste my time on a case I'm going to lose. Especially if it's going to cost me a fortune to do it. That's not rational. Your assertion that people behave irrationally here is just absurd.

[quote]

This is about insurance companies. They are the ones lobbying for this, not folks who probably think they'll never be sued. Someone has to pay for the lawyers. It's hard work, you have to go to school for a long time and there's a lot of personal exposure in that line of work.

And trial lawyers are the ones fighting it, whether it is caps on tort limits and/or loser pays as evidenced in the obamacare. But the consumers are footing the bill for all this nonsense.

No, it's not.

Sure it is...at least in P&C. You can have any number of witnesses for the plaintiff whether that is a roofing company, dry wall contractor, building contractor, chiropractor, etc...

They wouldn't be necessary if insurance companies would just deal fairly with people. Take my most recent PI case (I don't do much contingency work). She tried to take care of it herself. She's an educated woman, a college professor. She compiled all of her medical bills, sent in a very well done demand letter, better than what a lot of lawyers would do, and the adjuster just gave her the run around. She came in to see us a month before the statute of limitations ran. A week into the case, we found that the policy limits for the insured didn't even come up to her actuals.

Oh good grief, do you really think it is just insurance companies that deal unfairly and not a fair share of greedy lawyers getting their hand in the mix?

Now why on Earth would an adjuster, given a stack of bills which exceeded the insured's liability not just make a policy limits offer? Simple. She was trying to give my client the run around to try to run out the clock and pay nothing. Two weeks into the case, we have a check. Clearly the insurance company in question has decided that since it costs nothing for them to deal with attorneys that they'd rather screw individuals around to try to run out SOLs than just pay on easy cases.

Oh insurance aren't faultless or saints and neither are the attorneys. I have seen bad faith claims of $300,000 paid on a $5,000 collision because a claims person missed a mailing. Ridiculous.


And our system is better. In our system, we want to encourage injured people to pursue being made whole. It's a system that favors the little guy.

More BS. The little guy gets represented in Europe just as he does here but an innocent party is returned to whole and that also includes protection for the plaintiff since his court costs would also be paid. Attorneys just don't like that perspective. They don't want to be at risk. And case loads in this country are significantly higher than they are in England.



But he's not. The client is. Attorneys are never at risk in these cases.

Not the way I have seen it. Many clients will not expose themselves to court costs and legal fees of their opponent unless their attorneys agree to cover it. That may mean a higher contingency fee but the attorneys will be exposed nonetheless.

Comparatively, those are extremely rare.



Actually, I routinely advise people that though they may win their case, it's going to cost them more than the case is worth and at any rate, they'll never see a dime.

For example, if you came into my office wanting to sue the uninsured illegal immigrant who ran into your car, I'd give you the name of a cheap body shop and tell you that it probably wasn't worth your time or money. I'd give you the day the statue of limitations runs and send you on your merry way. Most lawyers would do that, and if one did otherwise, I too would question his ethics.

Funny you would mention being hit by an illegal immigrant. I was on jury call about 15 years ago when I was part of the jury selection process regarding a woman (green card) being "bumped" by another car on Broadway extension.

They threw me out once they heard I had insurance agencies but I stuck around to hear part of the case. It was, to say the least, the perfect example of a frivolous lawsuit. The plaintiff...Ms Greencard, was suing for disability due to being bumped on Broadway, yet the vehicle showed no signs of damage, the Xrays and MRI's showed no physical damage to the plaintiff. At that point the plaintiffs attorney asked any potential jurors if they could
still believe this woman was injured and entitled to recovery. A number of potential jurors excused themselves. The Plaintiff's attorney went on to explain the concept of "tender tissue" to the other potential jurors and if they had any problems with that concept and, if so, to excuse themselves. A few more potential jurors excused themselves. Then, I guess under some legal rule, the defense attorney asked if any juror would have a problem with them hiring a PI and if so to excuse themselves. Nobody did. Later, the same defense attorney asked if anyone had a problem with Ms Greencard being photographed on a loading dock carrying 5 gallon buckets and still find for the plaintiff...a few more potential jurors excused themselves and the judge had to get more jurors from the jury pool. (I don't know why the defense attorney asked that question but he did).

It was surprising to me that this case could have ever made it to court and was a total waste of taxpayer dollars and jurors time. A juror I knew called me with the verdict...it took 5 minutes and they held for the defendant.

.

[C&CDean]

Jeez. Is it time? I think it's time.

It's a shame too since soonerboyo'da posted the most cogent post in this thread. Nice job Sir Richard. Bad job all the rest of you numb****s.

[C&CDean]

And by numb****s I'm talking to the leftista JD who hasn't a clue about anything important in this world.