Tom Brady Vs Peyton Manning

[Collier11]

This has been debated for a long time, many times on this board. I have always sided with Brady...this new article does a great job of explaining why Brady




Tom Brady's cool efficiency has quietly made him the statistical equal of Peyton Manning.
AP

Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning has been pro football's Great Debate for much of the past decade. We imagine it will continue for decades to come, much like sports fans today still debate the relative merits of, say, Ted Williams vs. Joe DiMaggio.

As far as the Cold, Hard Football Facts are concerned, the argument should have ended long ago.

Brady's ascension to the role of starting quarterback for the Patriots was one of the watershed events in pro football history, instantly launching the New England dynasty and lifting Bill Belichick from quirky but ordinary head coach (53-63 without Brady) to mad genius and extraordinary head coach (123-36 with Brady).

The Patriots passer instantly pieced together a series of record win streaks, won three Super Bowls, captured a pair of Super Bowl MVP awards, engineered two last-second Super Bowl-winning scoring drives, won with machine-like regularity playing with a collection of unknowns and castoffs and proved to be one of the great big-game quarterbacks in history. He's currently in the midst of an unmatched period of statistical success.

Hard to top that resume if your name's not Starr or Montana.
"Better stats" no longer a Manning defense

Those who favored Manning as the best of his generation have long had only one arrow in their quiver of arguments: Peyton puts up better stats.

But that argument was tenuous at best. It was based largely on meaningless volume stats. The far more important efficiency stats were much closer than anyone realized.

And now, as of this week, even those efficiency stats point in Brady's favor.

Quietly, Brady passed Manning -- at least for the time being -- in career passer rating during New England's 31-27 win over the Packers Sunday night.

Brady, as of this week, is No. 5 on the career passer rating list (94.94); Manning is No. 6 (94.93).

Yes, it's a statistical dead heat. But you can argue Brady's numbers are the more impressive, coming as they have by playing in one of the NFL's worst-weather arenas. Manning has had the benefit of playing more than half of his career games in stat-inflating domes.

Manning still has much greater volume numbers than Brady, but volume numbers are important only in fantasy football, not in the real football played on Sundays. Remember: the last guy to lead the league in passing yards and win a championship was Johnny Unitas back in 1959.

No, winning in the NFL is all about passing the ball efficiently, no matter how often you pass it. And in the area of efficiency it's obvious that Brady has consistently done more with less and against tougher conditions.
Brady: Incredible production, few mistakes

There are three major measures of efficiency that we use at Cold, Hard Football Facts.com because they have such a high correlation to success: TD-INT ratio, passing yards per attempt and passer rating.

Here's how the two quarterbacks stack up over the course of their careers in all three indicators.
Player TD/INT ratio YPA Rating
Brady 2.49/1 7.37 94.94
Manning 2.01/1 7.62 94.93

Passer rating, as noted above, is a statistical dead heat, while Manning has a quarter-yard advantage in average per attempt. The one big difference is in TD-INT ratio, which Brady dominates.

TD-INT ratio is critical because it indicates a passer who produces points while limiting those killer interceptions.

The importance of points is obvious. The importance of avoiding INTS is not as obvious, but critically important. Keep in mind that every pick decreases a team's chances of winning by a full 20 percentage points. There are few plays in sports more devastating. And Brady's ability to avoid them throughout his career is one of the underappreciated secrets to his success.

Manning, though, has been victimized by critical INTs many times in his career, and threw 11 picks in the space of three games this year. It was the worst period of football in his career. And the Colts lost all three of those games, thanks largely to those mistakes. His four INTs against the Patriots in the 2003 AFC title game cost the Colts a shot at the Super Bowl. And he blew a chance to win the Super Bowl last year with a fourth-quarter pick-six against the Saints.

Brady, for his part, has never thrown more than 14 INTs in an entire season. He's currently in the middle of a period of nearly 300 attempts since his last pick -- dating all the way back to Oct. 17. (He has thrown a few passes into the hands of defenders in recent weeks that were dropped.)

His 31 TDs and 4 INTs this year put Brady on pace for the best single-season TD-INT ratio in history (7.75 to 1), surpassing his 50 and 8 in 2007.

Brady's last three seasons (2007, 2009-10), meanwhile, represent perhaps the best three-season performance by a quarterback in history:

• 1,068 of 1,592 (67.1 percent), 12,765 yards, 8.02 YPA, 109 TD, 25 INT, 107.68 rating.

His '07 season already stands as the second-most efficient in NFL history, with a 117.18 passer rating (behind Manning's 121.11 in 2004).

And with a 109.92 passer rating in '10, Brady is on pace for the seventh-highest rated season in history. Brady will, in all likelihood by season's end, be the only quarterback in history to produce two of the 12 most efficient seasons in history.

One wonders what the numbers might have looked like had Brady not missed essentially all of '08 with a catastrophic knee injury.
A deadly slate of defenses

The most impressive aspect of Brady's MVP-caliber effort this year is that he's producing monster stats and huge point totals against an absolute murderer's row of defenses.

Seven of Brady's 14 games this year were played against the six stingiest scoring defenses in football (Co-No. 1s Green Bay and Pittsburgh, No. 3 Chicago, No. 4 Baltimore, No. 5 N.Y. Jets (twice) and No. 6 San Diego).

Brady and the Patriots shredded almost all of them. They scored:

• 31 points against Green Bay Sunday night, the most any team has scored this year against the league's stingiest defense (15.7 PPG)
• 39 against Pittsburgh, the most any team has ever scored in a regular-season game at Heinz Field
• 33 points in the first half alone against Chicago; the Bears have not surrendered more than 26 total points in any other game this year.
• 45 points in their second meeting against the Jets; the team has otherwise not given up more than 31 points in a game in two years under Rex Ryan.

From the perspective of individual production, those same six teams all rank in the top 10 in Defensive Passer Rating, a Cold, Hard Football Facts "Quality Stat" and the most effective measure of each team's pass defense. It merely takes the formula used to rate quarterbacks and applies it to pass defenses.

• The Packers are No. 1 in DPR (70.32). Brady posted a 110.2 rating against them with 2 TD and 0 INT.
• The Chargers are No. 2 in DPR (72.46). Brady posted an 82.7 rating against them, with 1 TD and 0 INT.
• The Bears are No. 3 in DPR (73.00). Brady posted a 113.4 rating against them, with 2 TD and 0 INT.
• The Steelers No. 6 in DPR (78.16). Brady posted a 117.4 rating against them, with 3 TD and 0 INT.
• The Ravens are No. 7 in DPR (78.20). Brady posted a 69.5 rating against them (lowest of the year), with 1 TD and 2 INT (his last INTs of the season).
• The Jets are No. 10 in DPR (79.94). Brady posted a 148.9 rating in his most recent game against them, with 4 TD and 0 INT.

In other words, Brady has played half his schedule against defenses that have shut down every other quarterback and every other offense they've faced this year.

Given the nature of their respective careers, it's only fitting that Brady surpassed Manning in career passer rating Sunday night with a brutally efficient performance, in the cold of New England, against a defense that's the toughest on quarterbacks and the stingiest on the scoreboard.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/kerry_byrne/12/21/tom-brady-peyton-manning/index.html#ixzz18oVZWThu

[sooner59]

I once thought highly of Brady, but would have taken Manning if forced to choose. I realize that Peyton has been without many weapons but he has made some bone-headed mistakes this year by his standards. I would say Brady is fairly equal at this point.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

what Brady has done in this 9 game stretch(21TDs,0INTs) is amazing at any level

[Collier11]

Brady is playing at an all time level

[sooner59]

I would take Brady right now. Of course I am a Patriots fan anyway.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

whats funny is a lot of people were like "He's got Randy Moss, thats why he is so awesome"....Really without a big time deep threat, he has dissected about every D he has come up against

[Collier11]

Look at Deion Branch with and without Brady

[yankee]

yea, but peyton has funny commercials...

[melrosebeach]

Brady Vs Manning, ESPN make it sound like it's MMA or WWE

[Dwight]

Brady had a bunch of scrubs until Moss rolled into town. Manning has had Harrison and Wayne for most of his career.

[2121Sooner]

3 Super Bowl rings pretty much ends any discussion.


Manning is phenomenal. So was Marino. But to win multiple Super Bowls pretty much sets you apart.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

I see too much of, and get tired of Manning. no doubting his talent, but Brady is at least as good.

[THE-JROD]

Brady is playing at an all time level

Guess that gives me and Brady something in common :D:D:D Just ask yur ol' lady!! ;)

[sooner59]

That. Just. Happened.

Waiting on C11's response....

[THE-JROD]

Heh....you'll be waitin a while...his old @$$ is in bed lol!!

[sooner59]

Must suck to be that old. :D

[THE-JROD]

Heh, I know right?! I graduate in May and I drink more and more each day I get closer...cuz I know once I graduate, it's times to get a big boys job lol...Which im actually ready to do...COACH!!

[sooner59]

Heh, I know right?! I graduate in May and I drink more and more each day I get closer...cuz I know once I graduate, it's times to get a big boys job lol...Which im actually ready to do...COACH!!

Same here.

[Okie35]

Look at Deion Branch with and without Brady

w/ and w/o the Patriots organization you mean. The Pats can win w/ whatever QB they have. They have the best staff in the NFL hands down. The main reason why Peyton has more struggles is because of his ego. He CONTROLS the offense, period. If he was w/ Bill Belichick he wouldn't let him do all that. Not to mention, his o-line is inconsistent right now. The Patriots had a star lineman out and still had success on offense. Matt Cassel led the Patriots to 11-5. Yes, Matt is doing well in KC but he still has ppl from the Pats organization around him at KC.

[THE-JROD]

Same here.

You're gonna coach? What sport?

[sooner59]

No, I meant the graduating in May and the drinking thing. :D

If I coached, it would be football. But not in the current plan.

[THE-JROD]

Heh, I got ya!! If I coached anything in football, it would have to be either a quarterback coach, or offensive coordinator...could never be a head coach!!

[My Opinion Matters]

w/ and w/o the Patriots organization you mean. The Pats can win w/ whatever QB they have. They have the best staff in the NFL hands down. The main reason why Peyton has more struggles is because of his ego. He CONTROLS the offense, period. If he was w/ Bill Belichick he wouldn't let him do all that. Not to mention, his o-line is inconsistent right now. The Patriots had a star lineman out and still had success on offense. Matt Cassel led the Patriots to 11-5. Yes, Matt is doing well in KC but he still has ppl from the Pats organization around him at KC.

This is dumb.

[rekamrettuB]

I think Brady's given too much credit. He's great no doubt but w/out Billicheck he doesn't have 3 Super Bowl rings and vice versa.

[My Opinion Matters]

And if the world spun backwards we'd all be driving upside down.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I think Brady's given too much credit. He's great no doubt but w/out Billicheck he doesn't have 3 Super Bowl rings and vice versa.

strongly disagree...It is a great organization but Coach B. isn't throwing TD passes...And Brady has gained and lost O coordinators along the way but he keeps on putting the numbers up

[StoopTroup]

Has Peyton done underwear ads?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I have

[StoopTroup]

I got nuthing on him....his Bro Eli....probably shouldn't drink....lol

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pwDwkUiHvVQ/SchtprnIqKI/AAAAAAAAAo0/1BpQavVgnpo/s400/3_24_manning.jpg

[rekamrettuB]

strongly disagree...It is a great organization but Coach B. isn't throwing TD passes...And Brady has gained and lost O coordinators along the way but he keeps on putting the numbers up

True but I wasn't speaking of just the offensive side of the ball. They aren't outscoring folks 50-45. They have always had a pretty solid defense to go along with it.

Super Bowl rings are overrated when rating QBs in my mind. W/out defenses, OLines, great coaching, etc tey wouldn't have the bling.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

True but I wasn't speaking of just the offensive side of the ball. They aren't outscoring folks 50-45. They have always had a pretty solid defense to go along with it.

Super Bowl rings are overrated when rating QBs in my mind. W/out defenses, OLines, great coaching, etc tey wouldn't have the bling.

Have you seen the New England Defense this year btw? 28th in yards given up, 16th in scoring...not really good, winning football games still

Just bringing it up because the NFL is in a pendulum swing right now that defense doesn't win championships, offenses do..

[Okie35]

This is dumb.

Yup about as dumb as you not explaining why what I said is dumb. What I said makes perfect sense.

[Okie35]

True but I wasn't speaking of just the offensive side of the ball. They aren't outscoring folks 50-45. They have always had a pretty solid defense to go along with it.

Super Bowl rings are overrated when rating QBs in my mind. W/out defenses, OLines, great coaching, etc tey wouldn't have the bling.

Agreed.

[Okie35]

strongly disagree...It is a great organization but Coach B. isn't throwing TD passes...And Brady has gained and lost O coordinators along the way but he keeps on putting the numbers up

They haven't changed their system. If Peyton was on the Patriots they'd still have 3 rings, maybe more.

[Okie35]

Have you seen the New England Defense this year btw? 28th in yards given up, 16th in scoring...not really good, winning football games still

Just bringing it up because the NFL is in a pendulum swing right now that defense doesn't win championships, offenses do..

Whens the last time an offense won a championship in the NFL? In college it can fly. Last year the Saints were first in takeaways. They sealed the game off of an interception. This year I bet the Superbowl will be no different.

[My Opinion Matters]

I don't have the time or the patience for this crap. Tagging you in STEP.

[Okie35]

I don't have the time or the patience for this crap. Tagging you in STEP.

Awww.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Whens the last time an offense won a championship in the NFL? In college it can fly. Last year the Saints were first in takeaways. They sealed the game off of an interception. This year I bet the Superbowl will be no different.

overall the 18th and 25th ranked defenses in the NFL last season made it to the super bowl...sealing A game with an INT does not make for a great defense..

[IndySooner]

They haven't changed their system. If Peyton was on the Patriots they'd still have 3 rings, maybe more.

This. The one year Peyton had a Patriots calibur defense he won the Super Bowl.

Peyton > Brady

[stoops the eternal pimp]

They haven't changed their system. If Peyton was on the Patriots they'd still have 3 rings, maybe more.

The Patriots and Colts run different systems..who is to say how successful either would be in the other's system?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

This. The one year Peyton had a Patriots calibur defense he won the Super Bowl.

Peyton > Brady

I don't understand how this makes manning better

[IndySooner]

I don't understand how this makes manning better

That's not what makes him better. It's what invalidates the Super Bowl Ring argument.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

so > doesn't mean greater?

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I'm a big fan of both by the way......and all of this is strictly opinion of course

[ashley]

Depends on the year. This year it's Brady.

[Collier11]

Guess that gives me and Brady something in common :D:D:D Just ask yur ol' lady!! ;)


That. Just. Happened.

Waiting on C11's response....

Nothin to respond to, JRod is off in the corner playin while im in the bedroom doin man work

[Collier11]

Depends on the year. This year it's Brady.

and up until last year, Peyton wasnt good in the playoffs either. As a total career, everything included, its gotta be Brady

[Okie35]

I'm a big fan of both by the way......and all of this is strictly opinion of course

I'm not I don't really like Peyton but he's the better individual QB.

[Okie35]

and up until last year, Peyton wasnt good in the playoffs either. As a total career, everything included, its gotta be Brady

As a straight up QB, Peyton is better. Brady is has been on the better team throughout his career. Hell Sanchez sucks yet his team got far in the playoffs.

[Okie35]

overall the 18th and 25th ranked defenses in the NFL last season made it to the super bowl...sealing A game with an INT does not make for a great defense..

I didn't say they had a great defense but their defense came on in the right time. They led the NFL in takeaways as well. That happens in EVERY superbowl, even if the defense is mediocre throughout the season. The Mega Brady's lost that 1 game that year because of the Giants defensive line. The year Peyton won his superbowl, the run game and defense turned on in the playoffs. At the end of the day they're both great QBs and HOFers.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

As a straight up QB, Peyton is better. Brady is has been on the better team throughout his career. Hell Sanchez sucks yet his team got far in the playoffs.

Some think Manning is a better qb, some of us think Brady...
Im not going to penalize Brady for being on a good team much like I would not penalize Joe Montana or however many others that we could name

[Scott D]

Brady is better, end of story.

Also, Plunder > Pimp Up Ho Down....because one of us had Brady and the other thinks he's Archie Manning and has both Peyton and Eli :D

[texaspokieokie]

i think Marino was a great QB & he never won a super bowl.

[Scott D]

I think it's amusing. you could roll through eras with this argument.

Starr/Unitas
Staubach/Bradshaw/Stabler
Marino/Montana
Aikman/Young/Kelly
Favre/Manning/Brady

[Okie35]

Brady is better, end of story.

Also, Plunder > Pimp Up Ho Down....because one of us had Brady and the other thinks he's Archie Manning and has both Peyton and Eli :D

I'll go as far as saying it changes every year. Right now Peyton is losing personnel throughout this year, it almost seems like every week. So, he's going through tons of pressure. He started of the season pretty well then once teammates started to go down it got worse. Brady was the opposite he start off slow but once they got rid of Moss he starting playing well.

[btb916]

Brady is better, hands down. I will take a QB that wins super bowls over one that has great stats any day. It's not like Brady didn't play an important role in those Super Bowl wins. He wasn't like Mark Sanchez Okie35, gimmie a break.

And the best team Brady had actually lost in the super bowl.

[Okie35]

Brady is better, hands down. I will take a QB that wins super bowls over one that has great stats any day. It's not like Brady didn't play an important role in those Super Bowl wins. He wasn't like Mark Sanchez Okie35, gimmie a break.

And the best team Brady had actually lost in the super bowl.

Ok and the best team Manning's ever had won a Superbowl. The Colts also beat the Patriots in the AFC Championship that year. I do recall it being the biggest comeback ever for a conference championship game, ended on an int thrown by Brady. Anyway, I don't think you got the point of the Sanchez comment either. I'd take any Pats TEAM over the Colts any year. Everyone knows you can't win w/ only a good qb. If that was the case, Rivers should have a ring by now too. There is a reason why analysts/players called Peyton the most dominant qb and the Patriots the most dominant team, the last decade.

[AlboSooner]

3 Super Bowl rings pretty much ends any discussion.


Manning is phenomenal. So was Marino. But to win multiple Super Bowls pretty much sets you apart.

agree. Plus, I get tired of manning making all kinds of adjustments at the line, just snap the ball man, stop the chit chat. people have won without all the talking at the line...

[Collier11]

and as I mentioned earlier, Manning never really played all that well in the playoffs up until last year, Brady has basically owned the playoffs minus a few exceptions

[ashley]

Brady is better, hands down. I will take a QB that wins super bowls over one that has great stats any day. It's not like Brady didn't play an important role in those Super Bowl wins. He wasn't like Mark Sanchez Okie35, gimmie a break.

And the best team Brady had actually lost in the super bowl.

Will you take Jake Delhomme over Dan Marino?

[Scott D]

I'll go as far as saying it changes every year. Right now Peyton is losing personnel throughout this year, it almost seems like every week. So, he's going through tons of pressure. He started of the season pretty well then once teammates started to go down it got worse. Brady was the opposite he start off slow but once they got rid of Moss he starting playing well.

Brady's doing this with two undrafted running backs, one of whom was cut by a rival team two weeks into the season, two rookie tight ends, a guy who has always made plays but been considered too small (welker), and a reclamation project who hasn't had a good season since the last time the Patriots won the Super Bowl. Also, Brady was playing well before they got rid of Moss, it was Moss who wasn't doing well, and well...we've seen how his season has gone. that doesn't even include that Brady doesn't practice half the time because he's been fighting a couple of injuries all season.

Then again, I'll freely admit that I'm biased. I live in Michigan, I'll be one of the first to tell you that Brady got a raw deal when he had to split time with Drew Henson, for virtually his entire time at Michigan. It wasn't until Henson decided to play baseball that Brady got to be the starter for the majority of a season.

[btb916]

Will you take Jake Delhomme over Dan Marino?

This is a strawman. I think Eli Manning is a average quarterback, at best. But he has a Super Bowl ring. So does Delhomme. Trent Dilfer. Etc. Lots of average QBs have one Super Bowl ring. How many have 3?

I would never argue that a Super Bowl win makes a quarterback better without considering more. But Brady has 2 more Super Bowl wins than Manning, and his play is on almost exactly the same level as Manning's--year in, year out. In the case of almost-equals, I consider winning more important than stats.

[Collier11]

I think Delhomme and Dilfer were average, Eli is not great but is certainly a pretty good QB, way better than average IMO

[ashley]

This is a strawman. I think Eli Manning is a average quarterback, at best. But he has a Super Bowl ring. So does Delhomme. Trent Dilfer. Etc. Lots of average QBs have one Super Bowl ring. How many have 3?

I would never argue that a Super Bowl win makes a quarterback better without considering more. But Brady has 2 more Super Bowl wins than Manning, and his play is on almost exactly the same level as Manning's--year in, year out. In the case of almost-equals, I consider winning more important than stats.

If we can agree that Eli is one of the 10 best in the league, it follows that he is one of the ten best in the world. I would say that is better than average.

[texaspokieokie]

Will you take Jake Delhomme over Dan Marino?

of course not !!!

[ashley]

of course not !!!

Thats what I thought.

[mightysooner]

I'll take Manning. He's not trying to be a male model, an UGGS spokesperson, and an NFL QB all in one. Somebody needs to slap girly pretty boy Brady in his Beiber cut. Gisele is turning him into a fashionista mangina.

[Okie35]

Brady's doing this with two undrafted running backs, one of whom was cut by a rival team two weeks into the season, two rookie tight ends, a guy who has always made plays but been considered too small (welker), and a reclamation project who hasn't had a good season since the last time the Patriots won the Super Bowl. Also, Brady was playing well before they got rid of Moss, it was Moss who wasn't doing well, and well...we've seen how his season has gone. that doesn't even include that Brady doesn't practice half the time because he's been fighting a couple of injuries all season.

Then again, I'll freely admit that I'm biased. I live in Michigan, I'll be one of the first to tell you that Brady got a raw deal when he had to split time with Drew Henson, for virtually his entire time at Michigan. It wasn't until Henson decided to play baseball that Brady got to be the starter for the majority of a season.

It really doesn't matter who you have in all honesty they're all professionals the Patriots are easily the better coached staff in the NFL. They take nobodies and make them into stars. That goes for offense and defense. In the draft they usually take ppl no one has heard of. Thats one thing I've always admired about the whole Patriots organization. Brady was good at the start of the season but had two bad games against the better defenses he faced, the Ravens and the Jets. Only got 1 loss out of it though and made up for that Jets loss recently. The Browns game he didn't play too well either. Brady is great though and throws a lot of high percentage passes. Look at the margin of passes each player throws. Brady thrown for 40 attempts 3 times this year while Manning has thrown for 40 attempts 9 times and 3 of those were 50+ times. Manning's ego on the field sometimes gets the best of him. As I said before, he basically runs the offense, not their OC. Bill would never let Brady do that, he'd never have to. Brady has only throw 50 attempts like 3 times the last 4 years. His receivers run excellent routes no matter who they are and most of the time find separation. Manning always puts too much pressure on himself. This year Brady has been the better QB.

[pappy]

I'll take Brady over Peyton every day. His go to guy the past 4 years is an undrafted wr (welker) who didn't do anything until he got to New England and then all of the sudden was having 100+ reception seasons. He hasn't had a legit running back in 4 or 5 years and when he had that guy it was at the end of his prime (corey dillion). The running game he has now are 2 undrafted running backs. He has 2 rookie te's. He has a wr (Branch)...who Brady turned into a super bowl mvp and without Brady he sucked. Brady is like Michael Jordan making the players around him better than what they are.

Welker's 1st 47 games without Brady he had 96 catches for 1,121 yards and 1 td
through 44 games with Brady 318 catches for 3,352 yards and 19 tds. Big difference.

Deion Branch 2010-2011 with Seattle 4 games 13 catches for 112 yards 1 td
Deion Branch 2010-2011 with Tom Brady 10 games 46 catches for 681 yards and 5 tds. Big difference.



But really this is a pointless debate...they're both great and they'll both be hall of famers and nobody will ever know for sure who is better because its an opinion answer not a fact answer.

[Okie35]

I'll take Brady over Peyton every day. His go to guy the past 4 years is an undrafted wr (welker) who didn't do anything until he got to New England and then all of the sudden was having 100+ reception seasons. He hasn't had a legit running back in 4 or 5 years and when he had that guy it was at the end of his prime (corey dillion). The running game he has now are 2 undrafted running backs. He has 2 rookie te's. He has a wr (Branch)...who Brady turned into a super bowl mvp and without Brady he sucked. Brady is like Michael Jordan making the players around him better than what they are.

Welker's 1st 47 games without Brady he had 96 catches for 1,121 yards and 1 td
through 44 games with Brady 318 catches for 3,352 yards and 19 tds. Big difference.

Deion Branch 2010-2011 with Seattle 4 games 13 catches for 112 yards 1 td
Deion Branch 2010-2011 with Tom Brady 10 games 46 catches for 681 yards and 5 tds. Big difference.



But really this is a pointless debate...they're both great and they'll both be hall of famers and nobody will ever know for sure who is better because its an opinion answer not a fact answer.

Totally agree w/ your last statement. As far as Welker goes anyone can strive in New England. Its pretty much guaranteed. Its not only w/ Brady though its w/ their line w/ the routes, play calling etc... A lot of those plays Branch is wide open. In Seattle Branch never had time to get open nor did Hasslebeck have time to throw the ball. Hasslebeck takes a lot of sacks. The most in a game was like around 8 this year. I can't remember.

[Collier11]

Bill would never let Brady do that, he'd never have to.

How do you know that Brady doesnt have the liberty to call his own plays, id be willing to bet that he does

Manning always puts too much pressure on himself.

What? So is he the only QB in the league who is under an immense amount of pressure, both from others and himself?

[Okie35]

What? So is he the only QB in the league who is under an immense amount of pressure, both from others and himself?

Did you edit what I said? I didn't say that I just stated Peyton has been under pressure his WHOLE career. It started since HS through college to the NFL. I do think Brady has the ability to call his own plays every QB does but once Brady ****s up I bet Bill puts him on a leash. Manning doesn't get treated that way. At least not w/ Caldwell sometimes w/ Dungy he did. I was also referring when I said that was that Bill wouldn't let Brady throw as much as Manning does. He'd prefer to be balanced even when they didn't have a run game. I have a friend thats a Pats fan and said Manning has a field ego. I never really believed that until I realized how much Manning forces things at times.

[bmjlr]

I will take Brady anyday...and when he is gone, I will take Bradford.

[Collier11]

Did you edit what I said? I didn't say that I just stated Peyton has been under pressure his WHOLE career. It started since HS through college to the NFL. I do think Brady has the ability to call his own plays every QB does but once Brady ****s up I bet Bill puts him on a leash. Manning doesn't get treated that way. At least not w/ Caldwell sometimes w/ Dungy he did. I was also referring when I said that was that Bill wouldn't let Brady throw as much as Manning does. He'd prefer to be balanced even when they didn't have a run game. I have a friend thats a Pats fan and said Manning has a field ego. I never really believed that until I realized how much Manning forces things at times.

I quoted exactly what you said, no editing done

[Okie35]

I quoted exactly what you said, no editing done

That part in bold you edited in.

[GDC]

My dad dreamed the other night Tom Brady and Sam Bradford got in a fist fight and Sam wiped the floor with him.

[JLEW1818]

Brady all day.

Manning is a choker.

Manning throws pick 6's to lose Super Bowls

[btk108]

JLEW! Where is your Xmas spirit?

[texaspokieokie]

manning thru pick 6s to lose game against cowgirls.

[Collier11]

That part in bold you edited in.

You dont know how this works do you? :D The bolded part was my opinion on what you said

[JLEW1818]

c11 she said yes

[btk108]

c11 she said yes

Jlew....said yes that you could date other guys?

[Okie35]

Brady all day.

Manning is a choker.

Manning throws pick 6's to lose Super Bowls

Manning has been under a radar since his career. When Brady has bad games the Pats still win. The same can't be said for Manning and the Colts.


You dont know how this works do you? :D The bolded part was my opinion on what you said

lol ...

[The_Red_Patriot]

Not even close.

TOM FREAKING BRADY

J..E...T...S.. SUCK SUCK SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pappy]

Tom Brady set the record for most pass attempts without an int today...I forget the exact number but I think its around 310? I know its over 300 cause the guy who held it had the record with 297.

[1890MilesToNorman]

I remember the game when Brady came in for dumbass Bledsoe and everyone said "Who the hell is this Brady kid?", now everyone says "who's Bledsoe?".

[JLEW1818]

Manning has been under a radar since his career. When Brady has bad games the Pats still win. The same can't be said for Manning and the Colts.



lol ...
Brady>Manning

Brady = yanks
Manning = braves

Brady= heisman
Manning = mvp

Brady= Kobe
Manning = Lebron

Brady = winner
Manning = choker, pick 6's to lose Super Bowls.

[pappy]

The passing attempts record Brady set today is 319 attempts without an int...that's pretty impressive.

[pappy]

Brady>Manning

Brady = yanks
Manning = braves

Brady= heisman
Manning = mvp

Brady= Jordan
Manning = Lebron

Brady = winner
Manning = choker, pick 6's to lose Super Bowls.


fixed :) no room for debate on Jordan being greater than Lebron.

[pappy]

Continuing where JLEW left off

Brady = John Stockton
Manning = Isiah Thomas

Brady = Eddie Murphy
Manning = Charlie Murphy

Brady = Michael Jackson (as a musician only)
Manning = Janet Jackson

Brady = Rocky
Manning = Apollo Creed

Brady = Ninja Turtles
Manning = Shredder

Brady = DSL
Manning = Dial UP

Brady = Super Mario Bro's
Manning = Sonic

Brady = PS3 and Xbox 360
Manning = PS2 and Xbox

Brady = Dumb and Dumber
Manning = Dumb and Dumberer

[Okie35]

Brady>Manning

Brady = yanks
Manning = braves

Brady= heisman
Manning = mvp

Brady= Kobe
Manning = Lebron

Brady = winner
Manning = choker, pick 6's to lose Super Bowls.

lol dumbest comparisons ever Jlew.

[JLEW1818]

:D

[IndySooner]

Peyton Manning is about to make the playoffs with the most injury-riddled, talent lacking support staff possibly ever.

The year that Brady's team fell apart around him, he missed the playoffs. (See: 2008)

Matt Cassell filled in and led the Pats to the playoffs. He couldn't do that with the Colts, with the possible exception of 2006.

[JLEW1818]

Brady's D was ranked last like midway through this season.

The 2 guys have similar talents, stats. The bling is the next you look at.

[Okie35]

Brady's D was ranked last like midway through this season.

The 2 guys have similar talents, stats. The bling is the next you look at.

Not really as an individual qb, at least in my opinion. The Superbowl says more about your whole team.

[JLEW1818]

i often get in this debate with NBA. Like comparing Kobe to Lebron. Kobe all day every day. Basketball you can control both sides of the court. Rings separate in the NBA, period, as long as the talents are similar. So please, save the Robert Horry crap. Good player with rings, not great.

Football is a little different, so I should give Peyton a little more credit. Some balls that Peyton throws are just amazing... throws that brady could not make.

One thing that hurts Peyton is his ability to choke, just like Brett Favre. Brady does not have this consistency to choke. You can tell me all day what Brady has and what Peyton has/had. Peyton has had a top 10 WR of all time, the Edge in his prime.

Brady also did his part against the Giants, having his team up with 2+ minutes left. Very close to 4 rings.

[Okie35]

i often get in this debate with NBA. Like comparing Kobe to Lebron. Kobe all day every day. Basketball you can control both sides of the court. Rings separate in the NBA, period, as long as the talents are similar. So please, save the Robert Horry crap. Good player with rings, not great.

Football is a little different, so I should give Peyton a little more credit. Some balls that Peyton throws are just amazing... throws that brady could not make.

One thing that hurts Peyton is his ability to choke, just like Brett Favre. Brady does not have this consistency to choke. You can tell me all day what Brady has and what Peyton has/had. Peyton has had a top 10 WR of all time, the Edge in his prime.

Brady also did his part against the Giants, having his team up with 2+ minutes left. Very close to 4 rings.

Bad comparison because Lebron (individually) is a better player than Kobe right now. He has been for the past few years. Any analyst will tell you that. There really is no debate the fact is Kobe is aging.

[JLEW1818]

nope, i still take Kobe. Any analyst??? Maybe they say that during the regular season. Watching the last 2 NBA finals, they all claim Kobe is still the best. Lebron's athletics are far more impressive than his basketball skills. I have said this for years.

Lebron has won the MVP 2 years in a row, while having the best NBA record, and didn't reach the finals in those 2 years. = failure

that's called choking.

[Okie35]

nope, i still take Kobe. Any analyst??? Maybe they say that during the regular season. Watching the last 2 NBA finals, they all claim Kobe is still the best.

Lebron has won the MVP 2 years in a row, while having the best NBA record, and didn't reach the finals in those 2 years. = failure

that's called choking.

Regular season and playoffs don't matter when you're talking about individual talent. No they don't claim Kobe is the best player. An analyst earlier even just said "Lebron is the best player in the NBA, a few like to throw out Kevin Durant as well. Historically Kobe would be over him right now." ... and I agree 100%. Historically Kobe is the better player, but RIGHT NOW, Lebron is the best player in the NBA. One player doesn't give you rings. I hate when ppl try to take the team aspect out of sports.

[JLEW1818]

ahhh I'd still take Kobe if it was just for this season...

the way i see it, Lebron will have knee problems or something.. This guy is physical, and has a bad jump shot. Kobe and MJ extended their careers because of a dominant jump shot. Lebron won't be able to drive to the basket for ever.... he needs work on his post game. But i wouldn't mind having him on the Rockets.. :)


I'm just a professional Lebron James hater, because they crown the kid so early, and compare him to MJ.


so far he is not even on the same street as the greats. In the NBA, postseason matters.
Still early tho... but this running to Miami to play with 2 Allstars will hurt his legacy too.

[JLEW1818]

c11,

I've once again turned a good thread into a Lebron bashing thread :D

[Okie35]

ahhh I'd still take Kobe if it was just for this season...

the way i see it, Lebron will have knee problems or something.. This guy is physical, and has a bad jump shot. Kobe and MJ extended their careers because of a dominant jump shot. Lebron won't be able to drive to the basket for ever.... he needs work on his post game. But i wouldn't mind having him on the Rockets.. :)


I'm just a professional Lebron James hater, because they crown the kid so early, and compare him to MJ.


so far he is not even on the same street as the greats. In the NBA, postseason matters.

I used to say that same thing. He's really physical so his career may be short lived but lately he's been hitting his shot and can only improve. I've barely heard the Lebron comparison to MJ (skills wise). He's more like Magic and Magic actually is fine w/ that. The postseason does matter but at the same time he's had great postseason games. He's just never gotten over that hump. Him and Kobe are two completely different types of players. The Rockets you say? Uh oh I'm a Rockets fan too lol.

[btb916]

Regular season and playoffs don't matter when you're talking about individual talent.

Talent is not the entire point, though. There is more to being the best than being the most talented. Attitude, work ethic, being clutch...these intangibles are all as important or more important than pure talent. And in that broader sense of worth or ability as a player, playoffs matter a whole heck of a lot. That's when the most pressure is on you to perform. That's when it counts.

And that's when Brady has stepped up and only done things to help his team. In the fourth quarter of his first two superbowl wins, it was Brady that led the game-winning drive (field goals both times). He had gaudy numbers in his second super bowl, 354 yards with 3 TDs and 1 INT. In his third, he had 236 yards, with 2 TDs and 0 INTs. Even in the loss to the Giants, where he was sacked 5 times and pressured relentlessly, he had his team up with 3 mins left before the helmet catch. 266s yards, 1 TD, no INTs. And check the last second heave to Moss, he threw that ball dang near 70 yards.

In his only Super Bowl win, Manning had 247 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT. Last year he had 333 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT. But that INT was very, very costly.

So they both have played very well in the Super Bowl. But Brady's stats are better there considering their best individual performances. Plus Brady had to lead game-winning drives late in the fourth a couple of times, which he did. Manning, on the other hand, threw a pick 6 when the real pressure was on.

I think Brady is clearly a better choice.

[Okie35]

Talent is not the entire point, though. There is more to being the best than being the most talented. Attitude, work ethic, being clutch...these intangibles are all as important or more important than pure talent. And in that broader sense of worth or ability as a player, playoffs matter a whole heck of a lot. That's when the most pressure is on you to perform. That's when it counts.

And that's when Brady has stepped up and only done things to help his team. In the fourth quarter of his first two superbowl wins, it was Brady that led the game-winning drive (field goals both times). He had gaudy numbers in his second super bowl, 354 yards with 3 TDs and 1 INT. In his third, he had 236 yards, with 2 TDs and 0 INTs. Even in the loss to the Giants, where he was sacked 5 times and pressured relentlessly, he had his team up with 3 mins left before the helmet catch. 266s yards, 1 TD, no INTs. And check the last second heave to Moss, he threw that ball dang near 70 yards.

In his only Super Bowl win, Manning had 247 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT. Last year he had 333 yards, 1 TD and 1 INT. But that INT was very, very costly.

So they both have played very well in the Super Bowl. But Brady's stats are better there considering their best individual performances. Plus Brady had to lead game-winning drives late in the fourth a couple of times, which he did. Manning, on the other hand, threw a pick 6 when the real pressure was on.

I think Brady is clearly a better choice.

There's no better choice honestly. I'd be on a Pats team any day.

[JLEW1818]

Rockets fan too?? We got a ways to go now.... :D

I don't see why we don't ditch Martin and Luis now.... if we are going to "rebuild" don't waste the cap space.

[pappy]

Peyton Manning is about to make the playoffs with the most injury-riddled, talent lacking support staff possibly ever.

The year that Brady's team fell apart around him, he missed the playoffs. (See: 2008)

Matt Cassell filled in and led the Pats to the playoffs. He couldn't do that with the Colts, with the possible exception of 2006.

Matt Cassel's pats didn't make the playoffs and they had the easiest schedule in the league that year...they were matched up with both the afc and nfc west.

[Scott D]

Continuing where JLEW left off

Brady = John Stockton
Manning = Isiah Thomas

Isaiah Thomas = 2 rings
John Stockton = 0 rings

[Scott D]

Peyton Manning is about to make the playoffs with the most injury-riddled, talent lacking support staff possibly ever.

The year that Brady's team fell apart around him, he missed the playoffs. (See: 2008)

Matt Cassell filled in and led the Pats to the playoffs. He couldn't do that with the Colts, with the possible exception of 2006.

I think that's more an indication that the AFC North is barely better than the NFC West.

[Collier11]

c11 she said yes

I know, Im shocked :D


c11,

I've once again turned a good thread into a Lebron bashing thread :D

Ive noticed, I cant wait for Lebron to win a ring just so you will cry, no other reason matters :D

[JLEW1818]

but he didn't win it without running away to play with DWade.... ;)

[pappy]

Isaiah Thomas = 2 rings
John Stockton = 0 rings

good point...but statistically there is really no argument against john stockton being the greatest pg of all time...he's the all time leader in assists, steals, assists per game in a season, 1 of only 3 players to have 1,000 assists in a season and stockton did it 7 times, averaged a double double for his career (points and assists) 2 olympic gold medals. He would've won a couple nba titles if it wasn't for the fact that every time he made it to the finals he was matched up against the greatest player to ever play the game...Michael Jordan.

[pappy]

but he didn't win it without running away to play with DWade.... ;)

and chris bosh.

[JLEW1818]

remember, the jlew theory. before rings even come into considerations the player must be similar with talent/stats

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Brady is better, end of story.

Also, Plunder > Pimp Up Ho Down....because one of us had Brady and the other thinks he's Archie Manning and has both Peyton and Eli :D

I love those boys

[pappy]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-patriots-bradyrecords

[Okie35]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-patriots-bradyrecords

Great team all around. You're never under pressure as a coach, when you know your team is disciplined and always executes. I think before today's turnover they haven't turned the ball over in 2 months. That's ridiculous. Pats as an organization >>>

[btb916]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmonsnfl2010/week18picks&sportCat=nfl

Good article about this by Bill Simmons. Too long to quote here.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

It is very interesting the only SB that Manning won, he threw 3 TDS and 7INTs in that post season...like they won despite his play

[JLEW1818]

Wonder what the manning excuse is this time...

[Scott D]

Probably that he didn't know he was playing the Jets, he had Texans pencilled in on his schedule.

[agoo758]

Havn't read the whole thread, but in addition, Brady's performance in the playoffs has FAR exceeded Manning. In fact even with Manning's superbowl run in 2006, I remember him not playing very well at all, only to be bailed out by the defense.