Tom Coburn Hates Selfless, American Heroes

[Serge Ibaka]

:eek: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2010/12/21/coburn-to-block-911-responders-bill/

What an as**ole. Way to go, Oklahoma-voters.

[C&CDean]

****in' A!! You go Dr. Tom. Make em' dot the i's and cross the t's. It'll make their commie heads explode.

[Leroy Lizard]

The people who cleaned up the wreckage are heroes? Did they work for pay?

And 6.2 billion dollars seems a little steep.

There must be more to this story.


Mr. Coburn wants the package to be funded through spending cuts, the aide said. He and others in his party have questioned whether the money would overlap with workers’ compensation and other aid provided to Sept. 11 first responders. Mr. Coburn told Politico he wants the measure to work its way through committee rather than being fast-tracked, which would make it tough for senators to finish their work in the next few days.

[usaosooner]

I hate Coburn...

[Partial Qualifier]

sheesh, 6.2 BILLION ?? How many post-9/11 workers who fell ill were there?

[soonerboy_odanorth]

:eek: http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2010/12/21/coburn-to-block-911-responders-bill/

What an as**ole. Way to go, Oklahoma-voters.

You mean voters who want their politicians to pay for things in a fiscally responsible manner rather than endless tax increases? Yes... indeed... shame on them demanding accountability and electing those who follow through on it!

He may be an as**ole, but you have serious reading comprehension problems. It's not the "what" about which he is raising a stink, it's the "how".

[Serge Ibaka]

****in' A!! You go Dr. Tom. Make em' dot the i's and cross the t's. It'll make their commie heads explode.

You say he's making them "dot the i's and cross the t's."

I say he's erroneously blocking a bill which helps upstanding individuals--people who rushed into burning buildings and dug through ruble looking for the bodies of 9/11 victims--to get the medical-relief that they desperately need; these people have major health issues because of the service they provided to their community, and they need help now.

And Coburn's decision has nothing to do with "fiscal responsibility;" it's a shallow, political ploy. It's not pragmatic. It's a power-move.

Coburn believes that the advancement of the GOP-agenda is more important than the suffering of 9/11 victims. You cannot argue this; it's proven by his actions and comments regarding this bill.

[mgsooner]

I'm no Tom Coburn fan, but I don't think he's doing this to push any sort of agenda. The reason I don't think so is he ALWAYS does this. Coburn tries to block just about every single spending bill that comes along, and he offen irritates members of his own party when he does so. Just ask Jim Inhofe, who is an unapologetic fan of "earmarks" for Oklahoma (which Coburn tries to block).

[C&CDean]

You say he's making them "dot the i's and cross the t's."

I say he's erroneously blocking a bill which helps upstanding individuals--people who rushed into burning buildings and dug through ruble looking for the bodies of 9/11 victims--to get the medical-relief that they desperately need; these people have major health issues because of the service they provided to their community, and they need help now.

And Coburn's decision has nothing to do with "fiscal responsibility;" it's a shallow, political ploy. It's not pragmatic. It's a power-move.

Coburn believes that the advancement of the GOP-agenda is more important than the suffering of 9/11 victims. You cannot argue this; it's proven by his actions and comments regarding this bill.

No it's not proven by anything. The only proven thing in this thread is your unholy hatred of conservatives and their sensible/logical principles. Get over it.

It's not like these people are jobless/without benefits/never have been compensated/etc. This is MORE on top of what they've already gotten. If it makes sense then do it, but do it right. Why are you lefties such knee-jerking cliff jumpers?

[sooner59]

I don't know enough about Coburn's moves to allege anything, but politics, in general, turns normal upstanding individuals into nothing but a waste of skin. Basically includes pundits almost as much as the politicians. Not in every case. But has that effect on a large percentage of people.

[Serge Ibaka]

Oh please. Coburn is just holding the bill ransom to further a "spend less money!" agenda.

The money is supposed to come from a "2% fee on imports and services from companies that are not members of the Agreement on Government Procurement, a treaty of the World Trade Organization." Coburn wants it to come from spending-cuts. Why? Because Tom Coburn believes in spending-cuts, I guess.

Meanwhile, men and women of the NYFD and NYPD suffer without the treatments they need. And that's more important than Tom Coburn's political-positionings.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

AMERICUH!

[sooner59]

PHUK YEEEAHH!!!

[SicEmBaylor]

I can't see the reason why the Federal government should pay the rescue workers. The state of New York is responsible for this -- not the Feds.

[badger]

It's a feel-good bill. Of course we all want to help the 9/11 workers, but like the linked story says, we might be doubling up on services and there are alternative ways to fund this.

And yeah, $6.2 billion must setup an endowment for fully-funded college scholarships and health, car, dental and life insurance for the next 50 years or something???

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I can't see the reason why the Federal government should pay the rescue workers. The state of New York is responsible for this -- not the Feds.

From what I understand from the incident, this doesn't apply on a few fronts.

One, it's not the state of New York's responsibility at all. It's an issue of local jurisdiction as from what I understand, the specific WTC incident did not cross any jurisdictional boundaries. On that base premise, it's the City of New York's responsibility. But that was instantly trumped by overall incident command and jurisdictional responsibility being assumed by federal entities, therefore any and all actions from stabilization to termination are within the purview of the federal government. Therefore any and all injuries and incidents following the assumption of overall incident command by whichever tier of government assumes it is now the responsibility of said tier of government as all parties were acting under the command structure established by, you guessed it, the federal government.

In other words, the Feds wanted to run the show. Now they get to pay the actors involved. The fact that this is even a question is just one more reason why the Feds need to take their FEMA gestapo bullsh*t down the road and keep their involvment at strictly a financial support and multi-state jurisdictional level.

[StoopTroup]

I can't see the reason why the Federal government should pay the rescue workers. The state of New York is responsible for this -- not the Feds.

Guess we should have let NY go after the terrorists too? Does First Responders include the folks who came from other States? Does it cover the Pentagon Folks?

For me it's just a simple "We take care of our own". Everyone of those folks should get immediate help and assistance. Heroes.

To bad this has become a political toejam. Those folks don't deserve a bit of criticism. Matter of fact as I sit here writing this...I realized I have a 9-11-01 Tribute Shirt on. Some things never go away for some of us.

Never Forget...

[47straight]

I thought this was a decent take on opposition to the bill being passed without consideration, etc. Of course, this does violate SI's declaration that we cannot argue this.

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/12/12/2010-12-12_why_im_against_the_911_bill.html

[StoopTroup]

Oh please. Coburn is just holding the bill ransom to further a "spend less money!" agenda.

The money is supposed to come from a "2% fee on imports and services from companies that are not members of the Agreement on Government Procurement, a treaty of the World Trade Organization." Coburn wants it to come from spending-cuts. Why? Because Tom Coburn believes in spending-cuts, I guess.

Meanwhile, men and women of the NYFD and NYPD suffer without the treatments they need. And that's more important than Tom Coburn's political-positionings.

There were folks from all over. There were Boston First Responders too. Lots of folks who had credentials responded. There was no way this was just NYPD and NYFD. This was a huge mess/tragedy.

I think your right about it being pretty sad that every time this comes up the politicians argue about how to pay for it. I truly believe that the American People want to know that should that happen to their town/city that other Americans would care enough to support Federal Money to help them. This was an attack to American Soil...not an attack on NY.

Attacking Coburn isn't going to help things though. I'll never send any of these folks a vote again though. It's SHAMEFUL.

[AlboSooner]

Let's cut the benefits Coubrun receives for being a US senator, such as his governmental health care, his governmental transport benefits, his pension benefits, and all other perks out there. Oklahoma should return every stimulus dollar it has received as a way to cut government spending (I won't hold my breath). Every one who supports couburn and is on medicare, or any other governmental aid, should stop receiving such aid until a way is found to pay for it by cutting spending.

You'd think that the neo-cons and the religious right would at least care for these 9/11 responders, considering they have used 9/11 to do just about anything they wanted.


Somebody questioned the fact if they are heroes or not, since they worked for pay. In that case, the military is not working for free either....are they not heroes?

[Blue]

I'm just glad Obama is keeping his campaign promise of putting all these bills online for 7 days so I can read them before he signs them.

[soonerscuba]

I would be more surprised if Coburn was for this. I'm not huge on Coburn's politics, but he is one of a handful of Republicans prepared to back up his rhetoric with policy which I respect, the rest are panderers of the highest order, and have been for decades.

I also think the GOP is about to head into the serious reality that this nation is functionally liberal in terms of services and there is about a 0% chance they can deliver their agenda without getting pilloried by stuff like this. I guss they are lucky that Obama's evil Muslim plot run the census out of his dungeon resulted most likely in GOP pickups for 2012.

[47straight]

Oh wow, look. Democrats could have passed the bill over the summer with a simple majority over the summer, but instead used procedural tactics to require 2/3 approval, knowing that it would fail and that they could later blame the republicans. You know, the thing that's happening now?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/40516.html

[Leroy Lizard]

Are these rescue people, or cleanup crews? The article says they are cleanup workers. I can see the feds responsible for rescue workers' problems, but not cleanup.

Exactly how many are there, and how are we expected to know who was involved in the rescue operation and who wasn't?

$6.2 billion?!?! For 1,000 people that would amount to $6.2 million a pop.

[Caboose]

So in summary Democrats = good Republicans = Bad?

[StoopTroup]

I'm just glad Obama is keeping his campaign promise of putting all these bills online for 7 days so I can read them before he signs them.

If you want to look for it....here's maybe a place to start.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/search/site/The%20James%20Zadroga%209/11%20Health%20and%20Compensation%20Act

[Caboose]

Oh wow, look. Democrats could have passed the bill over the summer with a simple majority over the summer, but instead used procedural tactics to require 2/3 approval, knowing that it would fail and that they could later blame the republicans. You know, the thing that's happening now?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/40516.html

Where was all the Liberal outrage when the Democrats failed to pass this over the last two years when they had control of the Senate, House, and Oval office?

[OhU1]

It's for a good cause so shut up and crank up the money printing machine.

[Leroy Lizard]

Interesting....


One of the most significant concerns about this bill is its continued reliance on the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health to administer 9/11 health programs. NIOSH has sent $475 million in grants to New York to pay for health care benefits. Yet to this day, NIOSH, the city of New York and the various health care providers who received grants have failed to tell Congress where that money has gone.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/12/12/2010-12-12_why_im_against_the_911_bill.html#ixzz18mGoPfP7

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Are these rescue people, or cleanup crews? The article says they are cleanup workers. I can see the feds responsible for rescue workers' problems, but not cleanup.

Exactly how many are there, and how are we expected to know who was involved in the rescue operation and who wasn't?

$6.2 billion?!?! For 1,000 people that would amount to $6.2 million a pop.

All of the above.

Until Giuliani terminated recovery efforts, those operating within the site were a broad array of technical rescue specialists, heavy equipment operators, medical personnel, forensics specialists, you name it and it was there. Even after recovery (AKA, going 5 gallon bucket by 5 gallon bucket recovering body parts from the debris), it wasn't just a bunch of rednecks in bulldozers smashing crap into piles. Structural engineers, rigging experts, all the way down to good ol' fashioned manpower was needed in the effort. The only difference in the transition from recovery to "clean-up" was the move from filtering through each individual piece of debris to a larger scale debris removal plan still premised on being overly cautious toward potential body recovery.

[soonerscuba]

Where was all the Liberal outrage when the Democrats failed to pass this over the last two years when they had control of the Senate, House, and Oval office?Same place the deficit outrage was during the last decade, in the poltical inconvenience bin both parties use to store manufacured outrage.

[AlboSooner]

At the 30th anniversary celebration of the U.S. aid program to Egypt last year, the aid given totaled $28 billion, by far the largest amount of development aid given to any country in the world by the United States. (http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/features/egypt/)

Between 2003 and last year $US49 billion was poured into Iraq through the Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund and the defence budget. The Afghanistan program over the same period consisted of $US11 billion in traditional foreign aid and another $US15 billion in defence funds (http://www.smh.com.au/world/us-aid-tied-to-purchase-of-arms-20100101-llsb.html)

Assistance to Pakistan was recently tripled, with an additional $US1.5 billion a year for the next five years.

Billions of aid dollars buy U.S. little goodwill in Pakistan (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/23/AR2010082305476.html)

A Conservative Estimate of Total Direct U.S. Aid to Israel: Almost $114 Billion (http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/245-2008-november/3845-congress-watch-a-conservative-estimate-of-total-direct-us-aid-to-israel-almost-114-billion.html)

Tommy save us. :rolleyes:


what will these people say to God on judgment day. I pity them with the out most sincerely, for they will face an angry God.

[SicEmBaylor]

From what I understand from the incident, this doesn't apply on a few fronts.

One, it's not the state of New York's responsibility at all. It's an issue of local jurisdiction as from what I understand, the specific WTC incident did not cross any jurisdictional boundaries. On that base premise, it's the City of New York's responsibility. But that was instantly trumped by overall incident command and jurisdictional responsibility being assumed by federal entities, therefore any and all actions from stabilization to termination are within the purview of the federal government. Therefore any and all injuries and incidents following the assumption of overall incident command by whichever tier of government assumes it is now the responsibility of said tier of government as all parties were acting under the command structure established by, you guessed it, the federal government.

In other words, the Feds wanted to run the show. Now they get to pay the actors involved. The fact that this is even a question is just one more reason why the Feds need to take their FEMA gestapo bullsh*t down the road and keep their involvment at strictly a financial support and multi-state jurisdictional level.

I agree with some of this. It is true they've already insisted on getting involved, unfortunately, so therefore they are responsible for the results.

However, keep in mind that the division in government between local municipalities and the state is NOT the same as the division between the Feds and the States. Local municipalities only have as much power as the state government grants them. It's perfectly within the right of the state to deal with this and, considering the money involved, it's appropriate for them to do so.

The thing is...I thought we had already paid billions to these people for medical care and other needs. What on earth is this money for exactly?

[StoopTroup]

Are these rescue people, or cleanup crews? The article says they are cleanup workers. I can see the feds responsible for rescue workers' problems, but not cleanup.

Exactly how many are there, and how are we expected to know who was involved in the rescue operation and who wasn't?

$6.2 billion?!?! For 1,000 people that would amount to $6.2 million a pop.


The Administration supports House passage of H.R. 847, the James Zadroga 9/11 Health and Compensation Act of 2009. Like all Americans, the Administration has the deepest respect and gratitude for all of the Nation’s 9/11 heroes. The President is committed to ensuring that rescue and recovery workers, residents, students, and others suffering from health consequences related to the World Trade Center disaster have access to the monitoring and treatment they need. The President looks forward to signing a 9/11 health bill into law to help those whose health and livelihood were devastated by the terrorist attacks of September 11th.
The Administration looks forward to continuing to work with the Congress to meet the needs of our 9/11 heroes and to strengthen the World Trade Center Health program.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/legislative/sap/111/saphr847r_20100929.pdf

[SicEmBaylor]

Guess we should have let NY go after the terrorists too? Does First Responders include the folks who came from other States? Does it cover the Pentagon Folks?

For me it's just a simple "We take care of our own". Everyone of those folks should get immediate help and assistance. Heroes.

To bad this has become a political toejam. Those folks don't deserve a bit of criticism. Matter of fact as I sit here writing this...I realized I have a 9-11-01 Tribute Shirt on. Some things never go away for some of us.

Never Forget...

New York is responsible for first-responders from other states. The Pentagon is a little different in that D.C. is ultimately under the jurisdiction of the Federal government as is, of course, the Pentagon itself.

And we have taken care of these people....once again, I can't figure out why they need another 6.1 billion. That's a LOT of money if divided up equally among every first responder. I respect the hell out of what they did, but I'm not sure that rises to the level of being financially set for life.

[AlboSooner]

The true cost of the Iraq war: $3 trillion and beyond (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/03/AR2010090302200.html)

[Blue]

If you want to look for it....here's maybe a place to start.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/search/site/The%20James%20Zadroga%209/11%20Health%20and%20Compensation%20Act

I was thinking more along the lines of all the stimulus bills that have been voted on, changed, and passed in the cover of night.

You can't possibly believe that this promise has been met?

[SicEmBaylor]

Let's cut the benefits Coubrun receives for being a US senator, such as his governmental health care, his governmental transport benefits, his pension benefits, and all other perks out there.
This is asinine.


Oklahoma should return every stimulus dollar it has received as a way to cut government spending (I won't hold my breath). Every one who supports couburn and is on medicare, or any other governmental aid, should stop receiving such aid until a way is found to pay for it by cutting spending.
I agree.


You'd think that the neo-cons and the religious right would at least care for these 9/11 responders, considering they have used 9/11 to do just about anything they wanted.

Tom Coburn is certainly not a neocon. Coburn isn't close to being a neocon.


Somebody questioned the fact if they are heroes or not, since they worked for pay. In that case, the military is not working for free either....are they not heroes?

Heroes or not, why do they need another 6 billion?

Let me ask you all this: what dollar amount, specifically, should these people get? What do they deserve? 1 million each? 2 million? Let's cut all the bull**** and throw a number out there.

[StoopTroup]

What on earth is this money for exactly?

It amazes me that this bill has been out there for folks to look at for some time and that so many are completely detached for what happen there. I know if many of you had been effected personally.....you'd know every single aspect of it.

Coburn is making headlines at the expense of people who felt it was their duty as an American to help. This is some of the saddest **** I ever seen.

[AlboSooner]

Congress Votes Itself a Pay Raise (http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/agencies/a/raise4congress.htm)

Article: Senate votes itself a $4,900 pay raise (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-96808958.html)

[Caboose]

Same place the deficit outrage was during the last decade, in the poltical inconvenience bin both parties use to store manufacured outrage.

So this is manufactured outrage. Liberals are literally pretending to care about this issue because they think it will make Republicans look bad. Morally superior indeed.

[Leroy Lizard]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/legislative/sap/111/saphr847r_20100929.pdf

So let's cut the "heroes" crap. Only a few of these people are heroes. The others are simply bystanders suffering effects from a disaster of which the federal government was not responsible, much like Hurricane Katrina. (Not saying the federal government shouldn't consider helping them out, but it is not obligated IMO.)

[Partial Qualifier]

Oh please. Coburn is just holding the bill ransom to further a "spend less money!" agenda.

The money is supposed to come from a "2% fee on imports and services from companies that are not members of the Agreement on Government Procurement, a treaty of the World Trade Organization." Coburn wants it to come from spending-cuts. Why? Because Tom Coburn believes in spending-cuts, I guess.

Meanwhile, men and women of the NYFD and NYPD suffer without the treatments they need. And that's more important than Tom Coburn's political-positionings.

So "spend less money!" is a shady agenda now? If responsibility is the agenda, I'm all for it. Scrutinize the hell outta every spending bill and Pass the Kool-Aid.

I don't have a problem with the spirit of a 2% fee from goods acquired from non-WTO countries, but spending cuts make a lot more sense considering the financial climate.

Coburn's ideas sometimes makes way too much sense

[SicEmBaylor]

It amazes me that this bill has been out there for folks to look at for some time and that so many are completely detached for what happen there. I know if many of you had been effected personally.....you'd know every single aspect of it.

Coburn is making headlines at the expense of people who felt it was their duty as an American to help. This is some of the saddest **** I ever seen.

I just can't see why this is a Federal issue. If they need further support then it's the responsibility of the state and people of New York insofar as the WTC responders are concerned.

[AlboSooner]

I am glad we have an authority on board who can decide who is and who is not a hero.

[Leroy Lizard]

Somebody questioned the fact if they are heroes or not, since they worked for pay.

I was referring to cleanup workers. If a cleanup worker is paid, then he is simply doing his job. That doesn't make him a hero.

[StoopTroup]

So this is manufactured outrage. Liberals are literally pretending to care about this issue because they think it will make Republicans look bad. Morally superior indeed.

I'm sure politically that makes some sense. I'm throwing out any politics involved on this one. I've met so many of these folks personally and have seen how passionate they were back when nobody thought about what might happen to them as far as long term health. They felt it their duty as an American and if I had a vote right now...I'd vote to get them assistance. If it lost me a Senate Seat or a House Seat because of it...I would at least know I actually was a part of helping people who deserved it.

[Leroy Lizard]

I am glad we have an authority on board who can decide who is and who is not a hero.

We all do. Every one of us has a definition of hero in their own mind. I just stated my own opinion.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

However, keep in mind that the division in government between local municipalities and the state is NOT the same as the division between the Feds and the States. Local municipalities only have as much power as the state government grants them. It's perfectly within the right of the state to deal with this and, considering the money involved, it's appropriate for them to do so.

The kicker here is that the glass cannot be unbroken. Yes, it is well within the rights of the state to have maintained jurisdictional responsibility up until the incident is classed to extend state jurisdictional boundaries or the state requests federal assistance in the mitigation of the incident. This sticks on both counts as the attacks on the Pentagon and the failed attack from the airliner downed in PA were both stemmed from the same effort, therefore giving the incident a multi-state jurisdictional bent. Two, the state requested federal intervention.

And don't forget point #3, the point that trumps them all. A federal building was involved in the incident. The local and state jurisdiction having responsibility has NO responsibility nor no authority to respond to federal buildings and property without the express consent of the federal agency in charge. It's the reason why a fire department can't put out a post office fire without the express consent of the Postmaster. Can't enter federal property at all without express consent of the AHJ. Given that a federal building was involved in the attack and even though that attack extended beyond the point of the federal building, you have IMMEDIATE federal involvment and immediate overall jurisdictional responsibility falling under the highest establishing AHJ, which in this case was, you guessed it, the Feds.

All which leads to the State being in a position of hind tit whether it jives with your personal views or not, Sic'Em. Local jurisdiction has the majority of the manpower and initial response. Federal jurisdiction has the cash and the ability to call unlimited resources in incident management and the overall ability to coordinate the investigation over a multi-state jurisdictional investigation. Not much else to be said on the point.

[Leroy Lizard]

I'm sure politically that makes some sense. I'm throwing out any politics involved on this one. I've met so many of these folks personally and have seen how passionate they were back when nobody thought about what might happen to them as far as long term health. They felt it their duty as an American and if I had a vote right now...

At any cost? With no strings attached? No oversight? No accountability?

It sounds like you would be easily swayed by the emotional aspects of a bill and vote for it regardless of its merits as long as it felt good.

[C&CDean]

I am glad we have an authority on board who can decide who is and who is not a hero.

And I'm glad we have yet another cut & past linker to stupid political ****. Yay us.:rolleyes:

[AlboSooner]

I was referring to cleanup workers. If a cleanup worker is paid, then he is simply doing his job. That doesn't make him a hero.

I am not an authority in who is a hero or not. This bill denies first responders like the people who went there and took people out of the buildings. If you are willing to go in that toxic environment and do a hard work, with little safety, then I think that person is a hero to me.

The facts are facts: the new-found fiscal sensibility reared its head during the Obama administration. Spending was out of control for 8 years, yet nobody spoke out for fear of being labeled a traitor. There is a certain hypocrisy in spending trillions on foreign countries, yet raising an issue with 6.2 billions which will provide your own citizens a better life.

If I had to choose between giving Pakistan billions, or giving to the 911 first responders, I'd give it to the first responders. But that's just me.

[StoopTroup]

I just can't see why this is a Federal issue. If they need further support then it's the responsibility of the state and people of New York insofar as the WTC responders are concerned.

Fireman touched on this a bit. Bush got involved. Obama was on-board too. This was an attack on American soil same as Pearl Harbor. Since Pearl was a military target they got all the money they needed towards the war effort. We went to War after this attack. I think to many folks are tied up on who should pay. I feel for the folks in NY as much as I did for the folks in OKC. There is absolutely no way for a sitting President to turn all this backwards at this point. Talk about political suicide. Don't expect it to happen anytime soon. Also....I wouldn't crow to loudly about stuff like that. For me at this point, It's not very Patriotic.

[AlboSooner]

And I'm glad we have yet another cut & past linker to stupid political ****. Yay us.:rolleyes:

you mad.

[Leroy Lizard]

And don't forget point #3, the point that trumps them all. A federal building was involved in the incident.

Certainly true of the Pentagon. But the WTC was owned by the Port Authority of New Jersey. Have I got that right?

[StoopTroup]

At any cost? With no strings attached? No oversight? No accountability?

It sounds like you would be easily swayed by the emotional aspects of a bill and vote for it regardless of its merits as long as it felt good.

Dude...you didn't even know anything about any of this 5 minutes ago and now you want to argue about some bull**** you don't know **** about? Seriously...GO **** YOURSELF!

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Yup.

But there was a federal building just off of the WTC towers that was involved in the incident as well.

[AlboSooner]

Certainly true of the Pentagon. But the WTC was owned by the Port Authority of New Jersey. Have I got that right?

WTC housed MANY federal offices, from the FBI to the NSA and so on. I couldn;t care less for either party, but this issue feels right to me. It feels right to help these guys.

[TUSooner]

I just can't see why this is a Federal issue. If they need further support then it's the responsibility of the state and people of New York insofar as the WTC responders are concerned.

C'mon, for you NOTHING is a federal issue. And I exaggerate only slightly. :rolleyes:

That said: You Go, Tom! I don't agree with him on some things, but he's about the only guy making a decent & serious effort to reign in the foolish, feel-good, short-sighted, knee-jerk, money wasting that passes for governance these days.

[Leroy Lizard]

I am not an authority in who is a hero or not. This bill denies first responders like the people who went there and took people out of the buildings. If you are willing to go in that toxic environment and do a hard work, with little safety, then I think that person is a hero to me.

Again, I was referring to paid cleanup workers.

There are some legitimate heroes targeted in the bill, but to say that an attack on the bill is an attack on heroes is ridiculous. If the bill targed First Responders exclusively, then I could understand that argument.

[C&CDean]

you mad.

No, disgusted. We need somebody who links off-topic yay my party links like we need another hole in our asses.

[StoopTroup]

Certainly true of the Pentagon. But the WTC was owned by the Port Authority of New Jersey. Have I got that right?

Did you think for a minute that maybe Federal Funds were used in that building or that the Gov't had offices in the building? Did you remember the day it happened when every Aircraft in America was grounded to put down any threat that an attack on more Cities might happen? I'm guessing many of you forgot about when exactly the Government got involved in all of this.

[OhU1]

I vote we give $1 billion to each hero. Tom Coburn you should be ashamed.

[Leroy Lizard]

Dude...you didn't even know anything about any of this 5 minutes ago and now you want to argue about some bull**** you don't know **** about? Seriously...GO **** YOURSELF!

Here is what you said:


I've met so many of these folks personally and have seen how passionate they were back when nobody thought about what might happen to them as far as long term health. They felt it their duty as an American and if I had a vote right now...I'd vote to get them assistance.

Sorry, but even feel-good bills need to be crafted responsibly.

[StoopTroup]

I think many of you need to realize this isn't just about Heroes....but it is a great reason to get this legislation through.

[virginiasooner]

So let's cut the "heroes" crap. Only a few of these people are heroes. The others are simply bystanders suffering effects from a disaster of which the federal government was not responsible, much like Hurricane Katrina. (Not saying the federal government shouldn't consider helping them out, but it is not obligated IMO.)

Excuse me, but what outside contractor is responsible for the 9/11 intelligence failure? And as for Hurricane Katrina, what privately owned Corps of Engineers designed/approved the levees that failed? So the federal government is being nice by giving money to paper over hurt feelings. What. A. Pantload.

Let me explain first responders to you: THEY RUN INTO BURNING BUILDINGS WHILE YOU ARE RUNNING OUT OF ONE. Their job is to protect you when you are in harm's way, and you bitch and moan about paying for their hospital care due to their lungs being full of silica dust. The money that Coburn is whining about is for past AND future costs -- and if it covers the cost of first responder's child's college education, so be it, especially if that first responder is dead due to health problems caused by working on the pile. Senator Coburn is an embarrassment to the state.

[Blue]

Yup.

But there was a federal building just off of the WTC towers that was involved in the incident as well.

Taken down like a vegas casino.

[Leroy Lizard]

Did you think for a minute that maybe Federal Funds were used in that building or that the Gov't had offices in the building?

I don't think that makes it a federal building.

[pphilfran]

I say go Tom...

There has been plenty of time to know exactly where the money is going to be spent and why...

If it is so important (and it is) it is simple to pull a few billion from the war effort or other areas to pay for the responders care...

They have x amount of money...prioritize spending...and then start cutting the items on the bottom or trim excess from items on the top....

I run my business that way...

Your run your household that way...

Congress should do the same...

[tcrb]

So this is manufactured outrage. Liberals are literally pretending to care about this issue because they think it will make Republicans look bad. Morally superior indeed.

I think both sides care about these people. But the libs are cranking up their moral indignation media machine for political gain in the public's eye. The people with health issues deserve some help, but there's nothing wrong with being fiscally responsible with regard to how we go about it. The Dems had two years to pass this with a super majority and they poured all their energy into forcing a health care bill that no one wanted down our throats and trying to gain amnesty for 30 million illegal immigrants who are potential democratic voters. Now that their power in Congress has been diluted, they want to make it appears as though they stand on the moral high ground, and the sad thing is, the majority of Americans cant see through this smoke screen. This nation has become a flock of sheep that turns whichever way the liberal media spins the story.

[AlboSooner]

No, disgusted. We need somebody who links off-topic yay my party links like we need another hole in our asses.

I didn't link off topic stuff, and it wasn't "my party" yay stuff, whatever that means.

[Leroy Lizard]

Excuse me, but what outside contractor is responsible for the 9/11 intelligence failure?

The planes were flown by terrorists, not federal agents. Therefore the federal government is not responsible for the damage.

Police often make mistakes when trying to track serial killers. That doesn't make them responsible for the murders.


Let me explain first responders to you: THEY RUN INTO BURNING BUILDINGS WHILE YOU ARE RUNNING OUT OF ONE. Their job is to protect you when you are in harm's way, and you bitch and moan about paying for their hospital care due to their lungs being full of silica dust. The money that Coburn is whining about is for past AND future costs -- and if it covers the cost of first responder's child's college education, so be it, especially if that first responder is dead due to health problems caused by working on the pile. Senator Coburn is an embarrassment to the state.

For the umpteenth time, I was not referring to First Responders but rather ordinary bystanders.

[StoopTroup]

Here is what you said:



Sorry, but even feel-good bills need to be crafted responsibly.

And like I said....you don't know jack **** about this one.

For you to think this has something to do with how I feel....you are even dumber than I and most of us here think you are and I at this point I'm completely at awe that you have internet access unless you're gettin it for free through Gov't Assistance or a City Library.

[Blue]

I don't think that makes it a federal building.

Like Tulsa Fireman said, Building 7 housed FBI, CIA, etc.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Again, I was referring to paid cleanup workers.

There are some legitimate heroes targeted in the bill, but to say that an attack on the bill is an attack on heroes is ridiculous. If the bill targed First Responders exclusively, then I could understand that argument.

That's what you're not understanding.

These "clean-up" workers faced nearly identical health risks. And these "clean-up" workers aren't guys running around with brooms and shovels, they're many of the same personnel that engaged in the recovery effort. The only difference is the transition from recovery of fingers in 5 gallon buckets to a more generalized removal of debris with continued efforts in body recovery.

[AlboSooner]

I say go Tom...

There has been plenty of time to know exactly where the money is going to be spent and why...

If it is so important (and it is) it is simple to pull a few billion from the war effort or other areas to pay for the responders care...

They have x amount of money...prioritize spending...and then start cutting the items on the bottom or trim excess from items on the top....

I run my business that way...

Your run your household that way...

Congress should do the same...

I agree with this post. this guy has always been consistent with his logic, regardless of party.

[StoopTroup]

I don't think that makes it a federal building.
It might not but you can bet your *** the Feds where down there immediately.

[Jammin']

Do the clean up workers not have insurance? Worker's comp? One of my good friends was a part of both the initial responders and the clean up efforts through the National Guard and he is covered very, very well already. I'm all for extending anyone in need a helping hand but the double coverage should be ironed out before passing out wads of cash.

Do these thoughts make me liberal or conservative, I'm confused?

[TUSooner]

Umm... The terrorists attacked the USA, not just New York City. So yall's lame-o 1786 anti-federalist argument is a smoke screen.

[REDREX]

The bill does not even show how the money would be spent or who would receive it----It is the typical poorly thoughtout Washington answer----Throw money at the problem

[Leroy Lizard]

That's what you're not understanding.

These "clean-up" workers faced nearly identical health risks.

Workers face health risks all over the country. It's called an occupational hazard.


And these "clean-up" workers aren't guys running around with brooms and shovels, they're many of the same personnel that engaged in the recovery effort.

But not all of them. In fact, probably a small fraction of them.

If we are going to be fiscally responsible, we need to quit labeling people in such outlandish terms. A person who was eating lunch at the time and simply inhaled dust is not a hero, so to call him one to make it easier to pass legislation is a bit disingenuous.

[Caboose]

I am not an authority in who is a hero or not. This bill denies first responders like the people who went there and took people out of the buildings. If you are willing to go in that toxic environment and do a hard work, with little safety, then I think that person is a hero to me.

The facts are facts: the new-found fiscal sensibility reared its head during the Obama administration. Spending was out of control for 8 years, yet nobody spoke out for fear of being labeled a traitor. There is a certain hypocrisy in spending trillions on foreign countries, yet raising an issue with 6.2 billions which will provide your own citizens a better life.

If I had to choose between giving Pakistan billions, or giving to the 911 first responders, I'd give it to the first responders. But that's just me.

There is certain hypocrisy in feigning outrage for a GOP congressman "blocking" this bill now when the Democrats could have passed it at any point they wanted with no opposition over the last two years..... and there was not a word of criticism made for the Dems failing to do so.

[Leroy Lizard]

It might not but you can bet your *** the Feds where down there immediately.

That still doesn't make it a federal building. The semantics may or may not be important.

[AlboSooner]

There is certain hypocrisy in feigning outrage for a GOP congressman "blocking" this bill now when the Democrats could have passed it at any point they wanted with no opposition over the last two years..... and there was not a word of criticism made for the Dems failing to do so.

Good point.

[pphilfran]

The bill does not even show how the money would be spent or who would receive it----It is the typical poorly thoughtout Washington answer----Throw money at the problem

My man Red...where have ya been?

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/rex030.jpg

[C&CDean]

I didn't link off topic stuff, and it wasn't "my party" yay stuff, whatever that means.

My bad. It was "boo your party" crap. Same difference.

[C&CDean]

I guess I'd like to know more about the horrific illnesses these cleanup folks have, and have they been proven to be a direct result from cleaning up crap at ground zero. Also, what about the good folks who cleaned up the Murrah debris?

I also wanna know how much $$/bennies they've already received from the taxpayers. I think everyone believes folks should be taken care of, but I'm sorry, I'm pretty skeptical on all these health claims related to "x disaster."

[Blue]

That still doesn't make it a federal building. The semantics may or may not be important.

Check out the tenants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center

[virginiasooner]

The planes were flown by terrorists, not federal agents. Therefore the federal government is not responsible for the damage.


You are being deliberately obtuse. the Bush administration dismissed Richard Clarke's concern about Al-Qaida being determined to attack inside the United States. U.S. intelligence failed -- therefore it should be federal government who fixes their own screw-up.

[sooner59]

Check out the tenants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center

Stop using facts and logic. Does not work in political threads. :D

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Workers face health risks all over the country. It's called an occupational hazard.

And you just tipped your contrarian hand.

Were my 343 dead brothers not just experiencing an "occupational hazard"? They knew the risks, did it anyway, and I'll be damned. They're dead for their effort. Hell of an "occupational hazard". But those health risks extend well beyond the usual scope of what you deem as an "occupational hazard". Confined space operations, trench-styled operations, heavy equipment usage, secondary and tertiary collapse hazards, an inability to effect proper shoring techniques, no practical "green zone" from which to extend recovery efforts, all that PLUS the ever present spectre of dangerous atmospheres from which to operate within. It's NOT just an "occupational hazard", Leroy. The threat posed by the very dust and debris that was the WTC existed literally MONTHS, if not YEARS post-incident. Uncontrollable hazards that would only be resolved with tons of effort, manpower, and time. Sucks for those "clean-up" workers, huh?




But not all of them. In fact, probably a small fraction of them.

If we are going to be fiscally responsible, we need to quit labeling people in such outlandish terms. A person who was eating lunch at the time and simply inhaled dust is not a hero, so to call him one to make it easier to pass legislation is a bit disingenuous.

It's not about what nomenclature you use to assign the workers at the Ground Zero site. It's about the effects those workers experienced. Fiscal responsibility IS important. And accounting for each and every dime to make sure each and every dime is going to appropriate ends is only right. But to write off "clean-up" workers as not being exposed to the hazards of the incident is illinformed and foolish at best. You don't have to call them heroes. But it's only right to see to their needs medically when you asked them to do a job BEYOND any acceptable practices and/or environments found in industrial America.

[Leroy Lizard]

You are being deliberately obtuse. the Bush administration dismissed Richard Clarke's concern about Al-Qaida being determined to attack inside the United States. U.S. intelligence failed -- therefore it should be federal government who fixes their own screw-up.

It does not make the federal government RESPONSIBLE for the disasters. It just doesn't.

[AlboSooner]

I didn't mean to appear as too passionate about this issue, and showed my emotions a little. This is due to the fact that I witnessed 911 first hand being close to WTC that day, also my sister's building was close to WTC and we feared for her life. Senator Couburn has been consistent in his wish to cut spending, and wasteful governmental spending.

[REDREX]

My man Red...where have ya been?

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/rex030.jpg---I never could get the 247 password to work and I needed some time off after fighting Liberals almost non stop for 2 years----Have a nice Christmas

[Leroy Lizard]

And you just tipped your contrarian hand.

Were my 343 dead brothers not just experiencing an "occupational hazard"? They knew the risks, did it anyway, and I'll be damned. They're dead for their effort. Hell of an "occupational hazard".

First of all, your fellow soldiers were well aware of the risks going in, so there is an element of courage involved. I doubt most of the cleanup crews did. (Again, I am only referring to cleanup crews, not First Responders.)

A better analogy would be to compare the cleanup crews to early radiation scientists. While their work was invaluable and commendable, I would not consider them heroes because they didn't know the risks when they undertook the work. The people inside the buildings were also affected (and most were killed), but that doesn't make them heroes. When they went to work that day, they had no idea what was likely to happen to them.


It's not about what nomenclature you use to assign the workers at the Ground Zero site. It's about the effects those workers experienced. Fiscal responsibility IS important. And accounting for each and every dime to make sure each and every dime is going to appropriate ends is only right. But to write off "clean-up" workers as not being exposed to the hazards of the incident is illinformed and foolish at best. You don't have to call them heroes. But it's only right to see to their needs medically when you asked them to do a job BEYOND any acceptable practices and/or environments found in industrial America.

Your reading comprehension is way off. I never said that these workers were not affected nor did I say they were unworthy of financial aid.

If this is good legislation, then we shouldn't need to use such terms as "heroes" to make it easier to pass. Judge the bill by its merits and leave the emotional-laden language out of the discussion.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Your reading comprehension is way off. I never said that these workers were not affected nor did I say they were unworthy of financial aid.

If this is good legislation, then we shouldn't need to use such terms as "heroes" to make it easier to pass. Judge the bill by its merits and leave the emotional-laden language out of the discussion.

So your entire argument was based solely on the term used by the bill to reference those working at the Ground Zero site and nothing to do whatsoever with the effects those workers experienced? And that those "clean-up" workers are in fact due medical provisions above and beyond those normally afforded workers because of the inherent hazards present that were amazingly beyond any acceptable OSHA, NIOSH, NFPA, or EPA working standard?

Just want to make sure my reading comprehension button is working.

[virginiasooner]

It does not make the federal government RESPONSIBLE for the disasters. It just doesn't.

Glad to know when you make a mistake it's not your fault.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

C'mon, Leroy.

Time to spin this completely against your past argument in an effort to look like you know your *** from a hole in the ground.

YOU CAN DO EET!

[Leroy Lizard]

So your entire argument was based solely on the term used by the bill to reference those working at the Ground Zero site and nothing to do whatsoever with the effects those workers experienced?

Go back and read the thread. I simply objected to the original OP's use of the word "heroes." You guys are the ones that have taken a rather innocuous statement and made a big deal out of it.


And that those "clean-up" workers are in fact due medical provisions above and beyond those normally afforded workers because of the inherent hazards present that were amazingly beyond any acceptable OSHA, NIOSH, NFPA, or EPA working standard?

I don't necessarily object to them receiving additional assistance, but only for the right reasons. If a person is sitting in a coffee shop at the time and inhales some dust, how much assistance is he entitled? Do we provide such assistance for all people caught in similar circumstances? What is so special about that persons' merits over someone caught in a landslide or run over by a bulldozer?

What is it that makes a person worthy of such assistance? Do we provide such assistance consistently?

[JohnnyMack]

I just can't see why this is a Federal issue. If they need further support then it's the responsibility of the state and people of New York insofar as the WTC responders are concerned.

Because a failed Federal foreign policy is what triggered this in the first place.

[SicEmBaylor]

C'mon, for you NOTHING is a federal issue. And I exaggerate only slightly. :rolleyes:

That said: You Go, Tom! I don't agree with him on some things, but he's about the only guy making a decent & serious effort to reign in the foolish, feel-good, short-sighted, knee-jerk, money wasting that passes for governance these days.

Absolutely not true. The Feds have plenty of responsibility.

Providing for our defense...
Conducting diplomacy...
Regulating interstate commerce (in the truest sense of the word)...
Settling disputes between the states themselves...
Building and maintaining interstate roads...

[okie52]

Don't know if this has been posted yet:


Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) reportedly might block the 9/11 First Responders bill, or at least slow it down, according to Politico.

Politico reports that last night Coburn said "he wouldn't allow the bill to move quickly, saying he has problems with parts of the bill and the process Democrats are employing."

Though New York Sens. Kirsten Gillibrand and Chuck Schumer, both Democrats, have been predicting that the bill will pass, Coburn isn't convinced, saying on Fox News today that passage of the bill is a "maybe, doubtful."

He asked: "What happened to the money that's already up there? They can't give us any significant accounting for whether or not we spent it effectively," adding that "this bill hasn't even been through a committee."

"This is a bill," Coburn continued, "that's been drawn up and forced through Congress at the end of the year on a basis to solve a problem that we didn't have time to solve and we didn't get done."

"Their hearts are in a good place," he said. "Their heads not in a good place. We can do this next year, and we should."

The dems have had 2 years to pass this bill and 4 years that they have controlled congress. Now, surprisingly, they want to ram it through the lame duck congress. The bill hasn't even been through a committee.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/1210/Coburn_may_block_911_bill.html?showall

Thank goodness Coburn is there.

[okie52]

My man Red...where have ya been?

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii187/pphilfran/rex030.jpg

Merry Christmas Phil and Redrex.

[Leroy Lizard]

Glad to know when you make a mistake it's not your fault.

If you leave your door unlocked and get burglarized, you are not responsible for the burglary.

Yes, you could have prevented the burglary, but the burglars are ultimately responsible because they are the ones that did it.

C'mon, this is hardly difficult to understand.

[JohnnyMack]

It does not make the federal government RESPONSIBLE for the disasters. It just doesn't.

You might actually be retarded.

[Leroy Lizard]

You might actually be retarded.

:rolleyes:

[SicEmBaylor]

Actually, the Federal government is totally responsible for the attacks. One of the few f'n things they're supposed to do is protect the territorial integrity of these United States and they failed to do so.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they're responsible for paying the cleanup workers.

[virginiasooner]

If you leave your door unlocked and get burglarized, you are not responsible for the burglary.

Yes, you could have prevented the burglary, but the burglars are ultimately responsible because they are the ones that did it.

C'mon, this is hardly difficult to understand.

It wasn't just burglary -- the burglars also murdered the occupants of the house, and then set it on fire, and the fire spread to other houses in the neighborhood. And in the process of putting out the fire, a couple of firefighters were severely injured and died from their injuries. Because this person put his butt on the line for MY LIFE (and yours as well), I have no problem with making sure that his family is taken care of, and that they never receive a medical bill years later that they can't pay.

[bigfatjerk]

Absolutely not true. The Feds have plenty of responsibility.

Providing for our defense...
Conducting diplomacy...
Regulating interstate commerce (in the truest sense of the word)...
Settling disputes between the states themselves...
Building and maintaining interstate roads...

I think building and maintaining roads may be just as good if we start doing what Indiana did with highways. I'm not sure the government can keep track of the roads as well as they once did.

I'm for people like Coburn and Paul Ryan and Ron Paul and Jim Diment that actually worry about cutting spending in our government. Hopefully this movement continues to grow like it did with the last election. We'll see though. The republicans have had a spending problem too. Not the extent of the democrats in the last 2 years but still it was really bad.

[SicEmBaylor]

Logically, if you believe that the Feds are responsible for paying the cleanup workers then you'd also have to believe that the Feds are responsible for rebuilding the ground-zero commercial zone.

I don't think anyone here thinks that the Feds should pick up the tab for that.

[SicEmBaylor]

I think building and maintaining roads may be just as good if we start doing what Indiana did with highways. I'm not sure the government can keep track of the roads as well as they once did.

I'm for people like Coburn and Paul Ryan and Ron Paul and Jim Diment that actually worry about cutting spending in our government. Hopefully this movement continues to grow like it did with the last election. We'll see though. The republicans have had a spending problem too. Not the extent of the democrats in the last 2 years but still it was really bad.

DeMint.
YWIA

[olevetonahill]

You might actually be retarded.

You kinda slow at figuring shat out yerself :P

[bigfatjerk]

It wasn't just burglary -- the burglars also murdered the occupants of the house, and then set it on fire, and the fire spread to other houses in the neighborhood. And in the process of putting out the fire, a couple of firefighters were severely injured and died from their injuries. Because this person put his butt on the line for MY LIFE (and yours as well), I have no problem with making sure that his family is taken care of, and that they never receive a medical bill years later that they can't pay.

This should be up to the states to try and help them in aid or their companies. Our government can't fund anything that efficiently. How many times has it had to prove this for people to actually understand this part of the thing. Throwing money at problems got us into 10% unemployment and big companies getting all the money and smaller companies getting screwed. You really want this process to be promoted?

[Caboose]

Because a failed Federal foreign policy is what triggered this in the first place.

Um no. That is absurd.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

You've completely ignored the volume of reasons why the federal government has jurisdictional and practical responsibility toward those operating at the Ground Zero site.

Myopic political stance, F*%& YEAH!

[SicEmBaylor]

Um no. That is absurd.

Actually, it isn't. He's right.

[Leroy Lizard]

Actually, the Federal government is totally responsible for the attacks. One of the few f'n things they're supposed to do is protect the territorial integrity of these United States and they failed to do so.

That makes us responsible for Pearl Harbor too. Lucky Japanese.

[Leroy Lizard]

You've completely ignored the volume of reasons why the federal government has jurisdictional and practical responsibility toward those operating at the Ground Zero site.

If you're talking to me, I never suggested otherwise.

[JohnnyMack]

That makes us responsible for Pearl Harbor too. Lucky Japanese.

Serious question. Do you think that Emperoro Hirohito OR Osama bin Laden woke up one day and decided to throw a dart at a map and then carry out an attack on the country that the dart landed in? They were just bored and wanted to stir up some ****, or is it possible that other variables might have caused their actions?

[Jammin']

It seems that perhaps Coburn is right about one thing: we need more time to discuss this bill before signing. I'll site this thread as proof.

[47straight]

I am glad we have an authority on board who can decide who is and who is not a hero.

I'm glad we have an authority on board who can pronounce who will have to face an angry God.

[bigfatjerk]

I think you could be half right SicEm. Some of why 9/11 happened was because of poor foreign policy but some of it is because they hate how America is. They hate that women have rights, they hate that all races and all religions have rights. Some of it's just them. But I agree our policies overseas have been dangerous for a long time. We have something like 80 thousand troops in Europe. We haven't been at war anywhere in Europe for 60 years! That's just an example

[Jammin']

Serious question. Do you think that Emperoro Hirohito OR Osama bin Laden woke up one day and decided to throw a dart at a map and then carry out an attack on the country that the dart landed in? They were just bored and wanted to stir up some ****, or is it possible that other variables might have caused their actions?

Hirohito was interested in actively protecting the OIL in the south pacific that was the life-blood of the Japenese war machine.

Not sure ObL had the same mindset?

[soonerscuba]

DeMint.
YWIALulz at DeMint being in the same league as Ryan, Paul, et al. Also, lulz at the people who think Republicans will cut spending when they hashed out an increase in the last month. I feel bad that you have to be associated with this riff-raff.

[bigfatjerk]

Lulz at DeMint being in the same league as Ryan, Paul, et al. Also, lulz at the people who think Republicans will cut spending when they hashed out an increase in the last month. I feel bad that you have to be associated with this riff-raff.
There was no chance of anything with spending decreases when the democrats have the advantage they still have. We'll see how the republicans are after the new year when they have control of the House and more control in the Senate too.

[StoopTroup]

That still doesn't make it a federal building. The semantics may or may not be important.

If you were a first responder and a single Father with two or three children and were gonna die if you didn't get treatment or even provide for them because you haven't been able to work the last two years and you're employer was saying it wasn't work related and you weren't getting any help or assistance, you'd feel differently

[Leroy Lizard]

Serious question. Do you think that Emperoro Hirohito OR Osama bin Laden woke up one day and decided to throw a dart at a map and then carry out an attack on the country that the dart landed in? They were just bored and wanted to stir up some ****, or is it possible that other variables might have caused their actions?

If you want to defend the Japanese, I won't stand in your way.

[Okla-homey]

WTG Dr. Tom. Srsly. This is wasteful feel-good crapola we can't afford. Besides. as I and others have already stated, they have this thing called "Workers Comp" that exists to cover this stuff.

[oumartin]

if you don't like Coburn then **** you!

[Leroy Lizard]

If you were a first responder...

Stop right there. I have only stated about a billion times that I was not referring to First Responders in my criticism of the bill.

And in about five minutes I will have to say it again.

[Okla-homey]

If you were a first responder and a single Father with two or three children and were gonna die if you didn't get treatment or even provide for them because you haven't been able to work the last two years and you're employer was saying it wasn't work related and you weren't getting any help or assistance, you'd feel differently

So sue Bin Laden. sheesh.

[JohnnyMack]

If you want to defend the Japanese, I won't stand in your way.

Cause that would paint me as unamerican, right? And you as a steadfast supporter of mom, apple pie and freedom. But since you believe the stories in the Bible as truths, I'm sure it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for you to think that the dirty Japs attacked us for no reason at all.

[Leroy Lizard]

Cause that would paint me as unamerican, right? And you as a steadfast supporter of mom, apple pie and freedom.

Whatever dude. You can dig that hole all by yourself.

[StoopTroup]

So sue Bin Laden. sheesh.

Come on Homey....many of these guys went down there after they finished their regular job shifts. Many of them were volunteers. This is morally wrong IMO.

[SicEmBaylor]

Cause that would paint me as unamerican, right? And you as a steadfast supporter of mom, apple pie and freedom. But since you believe the stories in the Bible as truths, I'm sure it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for you to think that the dirty Japs attacked us for no reason at all.

1. I have nothing but hatred for the Japs. Not because they attacked us, but because of their treatment of American POWs.

2. Our foreign policy was THE reason that the Japanese attacked us. If you don't understand that then you don't know a damned thing about history. They were expanding their empire throughout Asia, and we were their #1 source of oil. When Roosevelt cut off their oil supply he directly threatened Japan's ability to expand putting us on a collision course that should have been obvious to everyone.

3. Roosevelt did virtually everything he could possibly do short of direct military action to drag us into that war and he eventually succeeded.

For liberals, JM and Scuba are pretty spot-on with a lot of things. I certainly don't agree with everything, but at least they make well-reasoned arguments. I respect both of these gentlemen.

[Okla-homey]

Come on Homey....many of these guys went down there after they finished their regular job shifts. Many of them were volunteers. This is morally wrong IMO.

All I'm saying ST is, with all their unions' backing, and sympathetic NYC courts, if these guys couldn't prove their conditions were work-related to a 51% probability, I say, sorry. No money for you.

That's the way it would work for everyone else in America. Including GI's who claim service-connected diabilities. Why should these guys be treated differently? Why do they get a free-pass on the proof part?

[Leroy Lizard]

2. Our foreign policy was THE reason that the Japanese attacked us. If you don't understand that then you don't know a damned thing about history. They were enslaving millions throughout Asia, and we were their #1 source of oil. When Roosevelt cut off their oil supply he directly threatened Japan's ability to expand putting us on a collision course that should have been obvious to everyone.

The Japanese were not exactly invited into Korea, Manchuria, and China. And they didn't treat their captives particularly well. This was an evil killing machine. Blaming the U.S. for trying to stop it is, well, un-American. (There, I said it.)

If you disagree, what would you have done?

No one doubted even at the time that our foreign policy with Japan would ultimately lead to war. In fact, war with Japan was a foregone conclusion. But that doesn't make us responsible for Pearl Harbor. The Japanese did not have to attack Pearl Harbor, just like they didn't have to attack China.

[sooner59]

Come on guys.....

What would Jesus do?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

He'd drink another beer and crank it up, fockers!

[sooner59]

Hell yeah!

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/skippystalin/jesus_buddy_christ.jpg

[achiro]

This may have already been answered but I didn't see it.
What services are needed that have been denied? What services are not covered under something that is already there(work comp insurance, health insurance, or government aid already given)?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

Chiropractic services aren't covered.

[OnlyOneOklahoma]

Seriously. Arguing over 6 billion is stupid. That is a rounding error.

I have read stories of police and firemen put on 3/4 pension and no healthcare because it was too expensive to take care of them. Unacceptable. And if 6.2 billion is what it takes, then give it to them. Raise taxes on us to pay for it if you must. Christ, anyone who disagrees with this bill can go straight to hell.

[OUthunder]

God Bless Tom Coburn!

[JohnnyMack]

The Japanese were not exactly invited into Korea, Manchuria, and China. And they didn't treat their captives particularly well. This was an evil killing machine. Blaming the U.S. for trying to stop it is, well, un-American. (There, I said it.)

If you disagree, what would you have done?

No one doubted even at the time that our foreign policy with Japan would ultimately lead to war. In fact, war with Japan was a foregone conclusion. But that doesn't make us responsible for Pearl Harbor. The Japanese did not have to attack Pearl Harbor, just like they didn't have to attack China.

So the Japanese were the sole aggressors in triggering war with the USA during WWII. How about al Qaeda? They do it just for ****s and giggles?

[achiro]

I have read stories of police and firemen put on 3/4 pension and no healthcare because it was too expensive to take care of them.

Link?

[Caboose]

Seriously. Arguing over 6 billion is stupid. That is a rounding error.

I have read stories of police and firemen put on 3/4 pension and no healthcare because it was too expensive to take care of them. Unacceptable. And if 6.2 billion is what it takes, then give it to them. Raise taxes on us to pay for it if you must. Christ, anyone who disagrees with this bill can go straight to hell.

I would wager that Democrats will largely agree with you (pretend to) and Republicans will largely disagree (sincerely).

[OnlyOneOklahoma]

I would wager that Democrats will largely agree with you (pretend to) and Republicans will largely disagree (sincerely).

idgi.

This is not a political issue.

[Caboose]

idgi.

This is not a political issue.

This is 100% a political issue.

[picasso]

You say he's making them "dot the i's and cross the t's."

I say he's erroneously blocking a bill which helps upstanding individuals--people who rushed into burning buildings and dug through ruble looking for the bodies of 9/11 victims--to get the medical-relief that they desperately need; these people have major health issues because of the service they provided to their community, and they need help now.

And Coburn's decision has nothing to do with "fiscal responsibility;" it's a shallow, political ploy. It's not pragmatic. It's a power-move.

Coburn believes that the advancement of the GOP-agenda is more important than the suffering of 9/11 victims. You cannot argue this; it's proven by his actions and comments regarding this bill.

You don't know much about Coburn.

[Leroy Lizard]

So the Japanese were the sole aggressors in triggering war with the USA during WWII. How about al Qaeda? They do it just for ****s and giggles?

Al Qaeda do not have to fly planes into buildings. They choose to. Therefore they are responsible. After all, everyone that performs a hideous act has an excuse. You just give those excuses far too much merit.

It would be interesting to hear your take on the South's firing on Fort Sumter. After all, the South was simply fighting for their own independence; the Japanese were actually trying to conquer foreign nations.

[StoopTroup]

This is 100% a political issue.

Which for me is where I get pretty pissed about it all. Again...another reason for the Government to change Healthcare in our Country. We are always patting our own backs when our researchers find ways to extend our lives and improve our quality of life and yet as soon as you need it...someone says...nope. Insurance doesn't cover that or you don't qualify or you can get it but you are going to need to jump through hoops for 3 or 4 years and then we can put you on a waiting list in an attempt or hope that you will just give up or die. We as a Society can do better than this. We are all nice and/or cozy when a Saudi Prince or World Leader comes to America for surgery he can get in his own Country and cut deals to get them the Top Knot Surgeons they want and as soon as it's a person who's paid into the system and donated money to the cause, we say who is gonna pay for it? Screw em. What have they done for us lately?

[Caboose]

Which for me is where I get pretty pissed about it all. Again...another reason for the Government to change Healthcare in our Country. We are always patting our own backs when our researchers find ways to extend our lives and improve our quality of life and yet as soon as you need it...someone says...nope. Insurance doesn't cover that or you don't qualify or you can get it but you are going to need to jump through hoops for 3 or 4 years and then we can put you on a waiting list in an attempt or hope that you will just give up or die. We as a Society can do better than this. We are all nice and/or cozy when a Saudi Prince or World Leader comes to America for surgery he can get in his own Country and cut deals to get them the Top Knot Surgeons they want and as soon as it's a person who's paid into the system and donated money to the cause, we say who is gonna pay for it? Screw em. What have they done for us lately?

Dont really see what this issue has to do with any of that.

[Jammin']

ttt

[StoopTroup]

It would be interesting to hear your take on the South's firing on Fort Sumter. After all, the South was simply fighting for their own independence; the Japanese were actually trying to conquer foreign nations.

You remember who won I hope? Also...I believe the South more than paid for the disasters they were apart of. They fought to the death. What we are up against here is a small group of people who would like to kill large numbers of us and they aren't doing it for their independence....they are doing it to people who they don't think follow their way of thinking. I'm pretty sure you're one of their targets.

[Leroy Lizard]

Which for me is where I get pretty pissed about it all. Again...another reason for the Government to change Healthcare in our Country. We are always patting our own backs when our researchers find ways to extend our lives and improve our quality of life and yet as soon as you need it...someone says...nope. Insurance doesn't cover that or you don't qualify or you can get it but you are going to need to jump through hoops for 3 or 4 years and then we can put you on a waiting list in an attempt or hope that you will just give up or die. We as a Society can do better than this. We are all nice and/or cozy when a Saudi Prince or World Leader comes to America for surgery he can get in his own Country and cut deals to get them the Top Knot Surgeons they want and as soon as it's a person who's paid into the system and donated money to the cause, we say who is gonna pay for it? Screw em. What have they done for us lately?

When Caboose said this was a political issue, I think he meant on both sides.

Each side in a political issue always wants to blame the other side for playing party politics and considers their own motives free of politics. Yeah, right.

Labeling Republicans as baddies because they won't sign a bill is in itself a political argument, especially given the timing of this bill. There is no way to avoid it.

[StoopTroup]

Dont really see what this issue has to do with any of that.

With what?

[SicEmBaylor]

Chiropractic services aren't covered.

Nor should they be. Chiropractors are glorified masseuses.

Actually, they're not even glorified.

[Leroy Lizard]

You remember who won I hope? Also...I believe the South more than paid for the disasters they were apart of. They fought to the death. What we are up against here is a small group of people who would like to kill large numbers of us and they aren't doing it for their independence....they are doing it to people who they don't think follow their way of thinking. I'm pretty sure you're one of their targets.

mmmm'kay, but what does that have to do with my post?

[Tulsa_Fireman]

GIT 'IM, ACHIRO!

[SicEmBaylor]

Achiro is a good guy. I'm sure he's an excellent practitioner of his craft.

[StoopTroup]

When Caboose said this was a political issue, I think he meant on both sides.

Each side in a political issue always wants to blame the other side for playing party politics and considers their own motives free of politics. Yeah, right.

Labeling Republicans as baddies because they won't sign a bill is in itself a political argument, especially given the timing of this bill. There is no way to avoid it.

See....this is where you absolutely don't understand where I'm coming from on this. I'm not bashing the Republicans for blocking it any more than I am that the Dems that had two years to get it through.

Coburn is using it as a block. Even if they do block it...they had better make some sense out of it quick once they are in charge. If this is just an attempt to get credit for it all later...it's just a shame. For other person to say get Bin Laden to pay for it when he's the one who made the mess that we have literally spent Billions on WMDs, Freedom for Iraqis and chasing a ghost in Afghanistan on instead of taking care of our own...I just can't get where any of you could be opposed to helping all these folks. Where is your sense of humanity?

[JohnnyMack]

Al Qaeda do not have to fly planes into buildings. They choose to. Therefore they are responsible. After all, everyone that performs a hideous act has an excuse. You just give those excuses far too much merit.

It would be interesting to hear your take on the South's firing on Fort Sumter. After all, the South was simply fighting for their own independence; the Japanese were actually trying to conquer foreign nations.

I'd be equally as interested in your take on George Washington and his band of rebels. Nobody made them shoot at the red coats.

I mean I guess it's possible that if al Qaeda maintains, and the USA crumbles leading to a 500 year reign of extremist Muslims dominating the globe Osama bin Laden could become the new GW.

[SicEmBaylor]

The Japanese were not exactly invited into Korea, Manchuria, and China. And they didn't treat their captives particularly well. This was an evil killing machine. Blaming the U.S. for trying to stop it is, well, un-American. (There, I said it.)

If you disagree, what would you have done?


Nothing. It was not our business to police Asia. It wasn't our business to stop the Japanese from doing anything. The American people DEMANDED that we stay neutral and stay out of other nation's affairs just as our forefathers intended. Roosevelt was a Wilsonian just like Bush. The only difference between Wilson and Roosevelt/Bush is that the latter believed in Peace through War.

This can't be said enough. The American people were virtually universally opposed to getting involved in Asia and Europe.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I'll never tell a lie.

I chopped down the zionist cherry tree because it did not wear a burka.

JIHADJIHADJIHAD

[tcrb]

I'll never tell a lie.

I chopped down the zionist cherry tree because it did not wear a burka.

JIHADJIHADJIHAD

This is a perfect metaphor.

[Leroy Lizard]

Nothing. It was not our business to police Asia. It wasn't our business to stop the Japanese from doing anything. The American people DEMANDED that we stay neutral and stay out of other nation's affairs just as our forefathers intended. Roosevelt was a Wilsonian just like Bush. The only difference between Wilson and Roosevelt/Bush is that the latter believed in Peace through War.

You would have made Hitler's day.

[Leroy Lizard]

I'd be equally as interested in your take on George Washington and his band of rebels. Nobody made them shoot at the red coats.

Who fired first? No one knows.

Besides, I never claimed that the British were responsible for the Revolutionary War. In fact, I don't think they were. That doesn't make the actions by the rebels unjust, because sometimes violence is justified.

Now back to Fort Sumter. Care to respond, or you going to dodge again?

[Blue]

I'd vote for him for Pres. He thinks for himself. It doesn't seem he's sold out. I could be and probably am wrong.

[OnlyOneOklahoma]

Coburn is the best senator this country has and this is another reason for it.

he won some points with be when I saw him on MSNBC's Morning Joe talking nicely about the president, and about how much he values their relationship.

He loses me when he plays politics over $6.2 billion, But we didn't hear much from him when the tax cuts were going on. I believe he voted against the extension, but he certainly didn't make a show of it.

Can anyone look at how he has voted when it comes time to vote for defense spending to fund the wars? I would argue that this bill is just as necessary as any defense continuation.

[StoopTroup]

True story that I've told more than once...but here it goes.....

Super Bowl XXVI - New Orleans

I was lucky enough to get tickets to the game that year. The Wife and I were in the High Roller Section at Harrahs and we hit a big Jackpot. Checked with the Concierge and asked him if he knew anyone with tickets. He had two a Player had traded him for other perks from what he told me. We bought them from the Casino and went.

Halftime they put up all the names of the dead on all four flights on 9-11. We were sitting with a lot of Boston First Responders (Police and Fire) and it was a pretty emotional moment. One I will never forget. Many of these folks would have never gotten to see their Team play in the Super Bowl never mind see their Team win a Super Bowl if it hadn't been for the NFL and many others helping them get tickets and accommodations and in some cases travel there. I promise you....that was the right thing to do for all of those folks and this help they are asking for is the right thing to do.

Coburn could be right to want to make sure there is a way to make sure money is spent properly but by now...one would think he'd have a solution instead of a block if he was such a good Senator.

[bigfatjerk]

I don't know if our defense continuation is necessary. At least not parts of it. Why are we really still in Afghanistan? According to those from the whitehouse there's less than 100 AL-Queda members in Afghanistan. Why are we still there? Why do we have 80k in Europe today. You think it's bad to question Iraq too? I can go on and on.

[SCOUT]

This may have already been answered but I didn't see it.
What services are needed that have been denied? What services are not covered under something that is already there(work comp insurance, health insurance, or government aid already given)?

I appreciate all of the righteous indignation in this thread, but this is a fair set of questions. For those of you who are so adamant that this bill should be passed, please answer at least one of these.

[tcrb]

I appreciate all of the righteous indignation in this thread, but this is a fair set of questions. For those of you who are so adamant that this bill should be passed, please answer at least one of these.

I completely agree.....what services and/or care has been denied?

[MR2-Sooner86]

Nor should they be. Chiropractors are glorified masseuses.

Actually, they're not even glorified.

You watch Penn & Teller's Bull**** don't you?


You would have made Hitler's day.

Seeing as how the Europeans complain we didn't get in the war early enough and didn't do that much and they instead give a majority of the credit to Russia and then when we do try and get involved they complain we're sticking our noses where they don't belong, I say **** them. They want us to help when it suits them, like with Hitler, but don't when it's something they don't agree with, like Iraq. You can't have it both ways.

[StoopTroup]

I completely agree.....what services and/or care has been denied?

For many of them...basic Healthcare and Rehabilitation, Cancer Treatments, Workers Compensation for some who should qualify, ...I'm sure there are many different scenarios.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6606909833563454569#

A great video as it shows guys who are trying to get support for the Walsh amendment and as they try to talk to our Representatives about it the guys walk by them without even recognizing them as at least hard working Americans who volunteered to help.

[sappstuf]

Am I understanding right that Coburn is to blame for holding Dems to Paygo which they passed earlier in the year that stated any nonemergency spending must be offset by decreased spending or increased revenue from somewhere else? This bill cannot be considered an emergency because it has been out there for months.

Coburn is a low-down dirty man for holding the Dems to their word....

[StoopTroup]

Am I understanding right that Coburn is to blame for holding Dems to Paygo which they passed earlier in the year that stated any nonemergency spending must be offset by decreased spending or increased revenue from somewhere else? This bill cannot be considered an emergency because it has been out there for months.

Coburn is a low-down dirty man for holding the Dems to their word....

You didn't read much of this I take?

[Leroy Lizard]

You watch Penn & Teller's Bull**** don't you?



Seeing as how the Europeans complain we didn't get in the war early enough and didn't do that much and they instead give a majority of the credit to Russia and then when we do try and get involved they complain we're sticking our noses where they don't belong, I say **** them.

The flip side are the complaints about Neville Chamberlain not doing something earlier.

For the record, the Allies declared war on Germany because of its invasion of POLAND, not for invading any of the Allied countries. If anything, the Allies didn't act soon enough, which is what happens when you maintain strict isolationist stances.

Letting Japan do as it please was not going to solve our problems, nor would letting Germany do as it pleased. Get real.

[sappstuf]

For many of them...basic Healthcare and Rehabilitation, Cancer Treatments, Workers Compensation for some who should qualify, ...I'm sure there are many different scenarios.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6606909833563454569#

A great video as it shows guys who are trying to get support for the Walsh amendment and as they try to talk to our Representatives about it the guys walk by them without even recognizing them as at least hard working Americans who volunteered to help.

Enough... If you hate Coburn for delaying the vote a day or two, I can only imagine your feeling for the Dems who have sat on this thing since it was reintroduced in Feb 2009 and for Harry Reid who after the bill passed the House in July has not found the time to getting this up for vote.. The Dems could have easily passed it when they had 60 votes in the Senate. You would think if they thought it was so important it would have passed in about 3 minutes even without a single Repub vote.

Guess they didn't think it was so important.

But facts are complicated so lets just go with:

Repubs are evil!!!

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-847

[tcrb]

The Dems could have easily passed it when they had 60 votes in the Senate. You would think if they thought it was so important it would have passed in about 3 minutes even without a single Repub vote.

This is my fundamental problem with this issue. Not whether the benefits should or should not be paid...these folks definitely need some help. I'm not 100% certain it should be the fed but not convinced that it shouldn't

But the fact that the dems are using this as a political grandstand and are shirking their role in the fact that this bill is still not passed is what irks me

And thanks for the link to the video ST, it was enlightening.

[AlbqSooner]

What Coburn is doing makes a lot of sense in my opinion. I do feel that the individuals efected should be compensated in a reasonable amount. I do not know what that amount is. I do believe that it is incumbent upon Congress to see to it that these individuals are compensated.

Where I agree with Sen. Coburn is that both houses of Congress have procedures in place to assure that items up for consideration are given fair and reasoned consideration by members of Congress before they are put to a vote. That, as I read the article is what Coburn is insisting on.

Those who accuse him of political grandstanding because he insists that the rules be followed would do well to consider what those opposed to this approach hope to gain by NOT following the rules and procedures in place.

It is not fair to the American people, not even the first responders, for those who present this bill at the eleventh hour and play upon the tragic circumstances as a reason to rush this through without consideration, when they have had 9 years, 3 months and a few days to do so.

The "what" is admirable. The proposed "how" is disgusting.

[cccasooner2]

The "what" is admirable. The proposed "how" is disgusting.

Well yes, but what would make it much more palatable would be an additional 16B in ethanol incentives and 40B or so in Gulf "Sponge Bob Squarepants" projects. For the children, a 6B DADT education fund would be fun.

[OnlyOneOklahoma]

Well yes, but what would make it much more palatable would be an additional 16B in ethanol incentives and 40B or so in Gulf "Sponge Bob Squarepants" projects. For the children, a 6B DADT education fund would be fun.

does not compute. what is your point?

[JohnnyMack]

Who fired first? No one knows.

Besides, I never claimed that the British were responsible for the Revolutionary War. In fact, I don't think they were. That doesn't make the actions by the rebels unjust, because sometimes violence is justified.

Now back to Fort Sumter. Care to respond, or you going to dodge again?

Sometimes violence is justified is an easy thing to say coming from the winning side. I imagine back in 1777 there were people in London who thought George Washington was just a disloyal traitor who'd never amount to anything. People who thought that an insurrection of colonists in a far away land didn't mean anything. Much the same way in 250 years their could be a temple to Osama bin Laden, heralding him as the father of the Islamic revolution that brought the Zionist oppressors to their knees. We don't know what's gonna happen. My entire argument is based on my refusal to accept that the United States is a giant sword of vigilance, sheathed in a scabbard of purity. That ours is a pure and just land set forth by providence to protect the world from itself. The fact remains that policy decisions have been made throughout the course of our nations history that were more about advancing certain corporations and areas of business than they were about a benevolent quest to rid the world of evil. Our Middle East foreign policy has been insulting for longer than you've been alive. We shouldn't be surprised that our chickens came home to roost on September 11th. It's not a validation of al Qaeda's actions for me to surmise that, rather it's a reminder that actions have consequences. That if you treat someone, or even allow them to feel as though they've been treated unfairly, they're likely to work at gaining some independence from what they view as oppression. George Washington helped do it and it led to you and I having this discussion today. There's a chance Osama bin Laden could do it and it might lead to an entirely different paradigm emerging on our planet. It's not a right versus wrong question, it's an understanding that empires don't endure endlessly, they fail over and over again, and when the denizens of those empires fail to understand that certain decisions lead to the fissures that can trigger the collapse of their worldview they're left asking "what happened?" instead of "why did this happen?"

As for Fort Sumter, see above.

[Leroy Lizard]

Sometimes violence is justified is an easy thing to say coming from the winning side. I imagine back in 1777 there were people in London who thought George Washington was just a disloyal traitor who'd never amount to anything. People who thought that an insurrection of colonists in a far away land didn't mean anything. Much the same way in 250 years their could be a temple to Osama bin Laden, heralding him as the father of the Islamic revolution that brought the Zionist oppressors to their knees. We don't know what's gonna happen. My entire argument is based on my refusal to accept that the United States is a giant sword of vigilance, sheathed in a scabbard of purity. That ours is a pure and just land set forth by providence to protect the world from itself. The fact remains that policy decisions have been made throughout the course of our nations history that were more about advancing certain corporations and areas of business than they were about a benevolent quest to rid the world of evil. Our Middle East foreign policy has been insulting for longer than you've been alive. We shouldn't be surprised that our chickens came home to roost on September 11th. It's not a validation of al Qaeda's actions...

But it is.

This is nothing more than a thinly veiled statement that "we deserved it" and "you can't blame them for acting this way." It's typical of the anti-American dogma of the hard left, who see American fault in every tragedy. A bomb goes off in Dresden -- it's somehow our fault.

I say bull****. Those people who worked in the WTC did not deserve this, and the people who flew those planes into the building are responsible for what happened.

Using your logic, there can never be blame assigned for any horrific act, because the aggressors can always offer explanations and justifications.


As for Fort Sumter, see above.

Don't weasel out that way. You claimed that the U.S. was responsible for Pearl Harbor because of its policies that impacted Japan. Well, is the U.S. responsible for the attack on Fort Sumter?

You should be able to provide a clear answer to that question. (If you say yes, I wouldn't even disagree with you. But I doubt that is what you want to say.)

Again, Japan was attacking foreign countries and all we did was to try and curtail their aggression -- the CSA was simply trying to declare independence.

[Blue]

I'm not a liberal and i say if the founding fathers saw this country today they would puke. I don't think rogue terrorists are right, but I don't blame them for fighting against the IMF Global Terror Machine. Quite a coincidence that the only countries the US goes after are the ones who will not submit to the IMF central bankers. Bangladesh, Iran, Iraq, N Korea, Venzeuela, etc..

Oh those nasty terrorists. We're so afraid of you.

Frankly, I'm more scared of the psychos in DC than I will ever be of some boogieman in Yemen.

It's time for everybody to admit that the United States is out of control.

Just my opinion.

[JohnnyMack]

But it is.

This is nothing more than a thinly veiled statement that "we deserved it" and "you can't blame them for acting this way." It's typical of the anti-American dogma of the hard left, who see American fault in every tragedy. A bomb goes off in Dresden -- it's somehow our fault.

I say bull****. Those people who worked in the WTC did not deserve this, and the people who flew those planes into the building are responsible for what happened.

Using your logic, there can never be blame assigned for any horrific act, because the aggressors can always offer explanations and justifications.


I feel it goes both ways. I was using specific examples of times when I felt our actions had led to responses from an enemy. But ultimately, actions have consequences. Hitler's actions had consequences, just as Hirohito's actions had consequences. You can't honestly deny that there's a link between the United States' foreign policy decisions in the Middle East and the rise of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. You may not care to acknowledge it, for it may not fit into your established worldview, but you'd be hard pressed to find any expert in foreign policy and/or Middle East history who would tell you there isn't a causal relationship. Again, it isn't about the right or wrong of the actions of the terrorists, but the "why" question that you seem to be avoiding. The same can be said of the "why" question as it relates to imperial Japan's antics in the Pacific. My whole argument isn't about condemnation or affirmation, rather an attempt at understanding that for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction.

Also, your "anti-American dogma of the hard left" jab is absurd. You're arguably the most dogmatic poster on this board and I'm far from "hard left". While I refuse to be a rah rah, flag waving, cookie cutter patriot, it's chicken **** of you to insinuate that I'm somehow less American than you. It's the mock indignation technique made famous by the Drudge Report you're leaning on right now.


Don't weasel out that way. You claimed that the U.S. was responsible for Pearl Harbor because of its policies that impacted Japan. Well, is the U.S. responsible for the attack on Fort Sumter?

You should be able to provide a clear answer to that question. (If you say yes, I wouldn't even disagree with you. But I doubt that is what you want to say.)

Again, Japan was attacking foreign countries and all we did was to try and curtail their aggression -- the CSA was simply trying to declare independence.

Yes. In the mind of the CSA the USA was in fact responsible for Civil War. They saw no way out. Maybe they were right, maybe they weren't but they didn't see any other way at that time.

[SicEmBaylor]

The state of South Carolina considered itself a sovereign state. Ft. Sumter was a military installation belonging to the United States of America which South Carolina no longer considered itself to be a part of. Therefore, that installation was a foreign military base located, without permission, on the sovereign soil of South Carolina.

South Carolina made repeated demands for the United States to evacuate and remove its troops from South Carolina's territory. The United States not only refused to evacuate its troops but escalated the situation by reinforcing the garrison.

This was itself an act of war regardless of who fired the first shot. It would be no different than if the British kept a garrison of troops in New York and refused to remove them. We would never allow a foreign government to station its troops, without permission, on our soil and their refusal to do so would surely result in war.

Regardless of what you think of the war or the institution of slavery, the War of Northern Aggression is another PERFECT example of how a disastrous American foreign policy resulted in an unnecessary war.

The United States has a long long history of incompetent actions that result in getting us involved in wars we had no reason to fight.

[Leroy Lizard]

I feel it goes both ways. I was using specific examples of times when I felt our actions had led to responses from an enemy. But ultimately, actions have consequences. Hitler's actions had consequences, just as Hirohito's actions had consequences. You can't honestly deny that there's a link between the United States' foreign policy decisions in the Middle East and the rise of Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.

The word "link" here is a weasel word. Sure, there is a link. They didn't pull the word "United States" out of a hat.

We know they have reasons. Hell, even psychopathic killers have reasons. But that is a long ways from assigning responsibility to the victims.

Jack the Ripper really hated prostitutes, so he 'ripped' them. He had his reasons, but that doesn't make the prostitutes responsible for what he did to them.

If you want to assign responsibility to the U.S. for what happened on 9-11, you're going to have to do better than simply establish a link.



Also, your "anti-American dogma of the hard left" jab is absurd. You're arguably the most dogmatic poster on this board and I'm far from "hard left". While I refuse to be a rah rah, flag waving, cookie cutter patriot, it's chicken **** of you to insinuate that I'm somehow less American than you. It's the mock indignation technique made famous by the Drudge Report you're leaning on right now.

I work on a college campus and I hear this crap all the time from the wide-eyed pseudo-intelligentsia. (Thankfully my field is largely devoid of them.) To them, the U.S. is somehow to blame for all evil; the horrors inflicted by its enemies always explained away or never mentioned. That is why Japan is cited in this thread as merely wanting to "expand." That sounds innocent enough, right? Let's not mention the horrors they inflicted on their captives, because we're U.S.-bashing here; acknowledging such realities fails to serve our purposes.

The terrorists had their justifications. But they didn't have to bomb the WTC, therefore doing so places the responsibility for what took place directly on their shoulders.


Yes. In the mind of the CSA the USA was in fact responsible for Civil War. They saw no way out. Maybe they were right, maybe they weren't....

Back up a second here. When it came to the U.S.' responsibility for the WTC, you sure didn't use this "in the eyes of the enemy" and "maybe they were, maybe they weren't" crap. You sure didn't give the U.S. such latitude when it came to Pearl Harbor. Why?

[Leroy Lizard]

The state of South Carolina considered itself a sovereign state. Ft. Sumpter was a military installation belonging to the United States of America which South Carolina no longer considered itself to be a part of. Therefore, that installation was a foreign military base located, without permission, on the sovereign soil of South Carolina.

South Carolina made repeated demands for the United States to evacuate and remove its troops from South Carolina's territory. The United States not only refused to evacuate its troops but escalated the situation by reinforcing the garrison.

This was itself an act of war regardless of who fired the first shot. It would be no different than if the British kept a garrison of troops in New York and refused to remove them. We would never allow a foreign government to station its troops, without permission, on our soil and their refusal to do so would surely result in war.

Regardless of what you think of the war or the institution of slavery, the War of Northern Aggression is another PERFECT example of how a disastrous American foreign policy resulted in an unnecessary war.

The United States has a long long history of incompetent actions that result in getting us involved in wars we had no reason to fight.

Actually, I agree largely with this. I wonder if Johnny Mack agrees. Johnny?

[JohnnyMack]

The word "link" here is a weasel word. Sure, there is a link. They didn't pull the word "United States" out of a hat.

We know they have reasons. Hell, even psychopathic killers have reasons. But that is a long ways from assigning responsibility to the victims.

Jack the Ripper really hated prostitutes, so he 'ripped' them. He had his reasons, but that doesn't make the prostitutes responsible for what he did to them.

If you want to assign responsibility to the U.S. for what happened on 9-11, you're going to have to do better than simply establish a link.

I didn't say that the United States was responsible for what happened on 09/11 or at Pearl Harbor. I said that, devoid of assigning a value judgment, there exists a causal relationship between the foreign policy decisions of the United States and the actions of the al Qaeda terrorists and Imperial Japan.


I work on a college campus and I hear this crap all the time from the wide-eyed pseudo-intelligentsia. (Thankfully my field is largely devoid of them.) To them, the U.S. is somehow to blame for all evil; the horrors inflicted by its enemies always explained away or never mentioned. That is why Japan is cited in this thread as merely wanting to "expand." That sounds innocent enough, right? Let's not mention the horrors they inflicted on their captives, because we're U.S.-bashing here; acknowledging such realities fails to serve our purposes.

The terrorists had their justifications. But they didn't have to bomb the WTC, therefore doing so places the responsibility for what took place directly on their shoulders.

Again, they are responsible for their actions. But it's kind of like dealing with a serial killer in that if you want to better understand what causes a serial killer to become a serial killer, you need to look beyond just the actions associated with the killing and try and work at the "why" questions of how he got to that point in the first place.


Back up a second here. When it came to the U.S.' responsibility for the WTC, you sure didn't use this "in the eyes of the enemy" and "maybe they were, maybe they weren't" crap. You sure didn't give the U.S. such latitude when it came to Pearl Harbor. Why?

You're dabbling in semantics at this point. I thought it was understood that it carried over from Ft. Sumter, to Pearl to NYC. If that wasn't clear I apologize.

[JohnnyMack]

Actually, I agree largely with this. I wonder if Johnny Mack agrees. Johnny?

Me? I definitely believe that the United States has a long long history of incompetent actions that result in getting us involved in wars we had no reason to fight.

[Leroy Lizard]

Me? I definitely believe that the United States has a long long history of incompetent actions that result in getting us involved in wars we had no reason to fight.

That's great, JM, but what abot Sic'em's post on Fort Sumter? You agree with him? Just curious.

[StoopTroup]

I vote we give $1 billion to each hero. Tom Coburn you should be ashamed.

I believe you are trying to give Tom a stroke. Do not anger the Coburn or he will talk about where every penny was mis-spent right after he gets that information from the committee meeting he missed.

[soonercoop1]

POS liberal/progressive Dems only had the last 4 years to get this done...I hope Coburn shuts the whole federal government down and stops all legislation....

[StoopTroup]

POS liberal/progressive Dems only had the last 4 years to get this done...I hope Coburn shuts the whole federal government down and stops all legislation....

From what I can tell from the Senators who are in support of this Bill especially some of the Pubs....he'll be not very popular if he does take the tactics we are hearing he's preparing to use. Dude is gonna get a nice blip mentioning in History Books that will be written about this Lame Duck Session.

I do agree that it's a shame that after 22 hearings Tom suddenly thinks a couple more hearings he can't fit into his schedule and attend would help make this bill more effective and save America from all the financial abuse.

He's gonna get his shot a another 5 minutes of fame again today it seems.

[Sooner_Bob]

Are these rescue people, or cleanup crews? The article says they are cleanup workers. I can see the feds responsible for rescue workers' problems, but not cleanup.




Why not the cleanup folks? They're often exposed to more "crap" than anyone.

I'm honestly not sure the Feds should be bailing out anyone involved in this, but if you help one group of workers you can't leave out another.

[StoopTroup]

Bob...

You are missing DADT ObamaGheyFest!

[dwarthog]

does not compute. what is your point?

Riders that are being attached to this legistlation????

[Bourbon St Sooner]

You say he's making them "dot the i's and cross the t's."

I say he's erroneously blocking a bill which helps upstanding individuals--people who rushed into burning buildings and dug through ruble looking for the bodies of 9/11 victims--to get the medical-relief that they desperately need; these people have major health issues because of the service they provided to their community, and they need help now.

And Coburn's decision has nothing to do with "fiscal responsibility;" it's a shallow, political ploy. It's not pragmatic. It's a power-move.

Coburn believes that the advancement of the GOP-agenda is more important than the suffering of 9/11 victims. You cannot argue this; it's proven by his actions and comments regarding this bill.


So how much do the 9/11 workers need? Why 6 billion? Why not 20 billion? or 30 billion?

You're one of those that doesn't ask questions, as long as there's some feel good label behind the bill. We're helping the 9/11 workers. It's all for the children. We need 50 billion to save some kittens.

[StoopTroup]

So how much do the 9/11 workers need? Why 6 billion? Why not 20 billion? or 30 billion?

You're one of those that doesn't ask questions, as long as there's some feel good label behind the bill. We're helping the 9/11 workers. It's all for the children. We need 50 billion to save some kittens.

Because the Republicans thought that 7 billion was to much after 22 committee meetings?

[Bourbon St Sooner]

The bill does not even show how the money would be spent or who would receive it----It is the typical poorly thoughtout Washington answer----Throw money at the problem

Yes, but it's for the heroes, or the children, or to save the kittens. Quit questioning our great government's spending you heartless bastard. The Chinese are never going to want their money back anyways.

[Bourbon St Sooner]

Because the Republicans thought that 7 billion was to much after 22 committee meetings?

The big government Republicans, much like the Democrats, never think there's too much spending. Tom Coburn's one of the few up there that questions anything. I'll trust his judgement.

[StoopTroup]

I'm pretty sure I saw some folks trying to get respiratory therapy, Cancer Treatments and surgery this morning that they can no longer afford. I'm pretty sure that once you've lost your job and you aren't healthy enough to pass a physical that you aren't going to be able to get a job with benefits again. At that point you can put yourself in the system and hopefully someday get help. I think these folks deserve better.

[StoopTroup]

The big government Republicans, much like the Democrats, never think there's too much spending. Tom Coburn's one of the few up there that questions anything. I'll trust his judgement.

You know he's just using tactics to stop the spending right? This isn't about judgement...it's about his principles. In this case he's not getting much support. At least today media wise it seems that way.

Tom is on the Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions and is knowledgeable as a Physician. You would think he'd have legitimate specific concerns other than what he's saying right now. He's a smart guy but on this one...I'm questioning his agenda not his judgement.

http://coburn.senate.gov/public/?p=CommitteeAssignments

[Sooner_Bob]

Bob...

You are missing DADT ObamaGheyFest!

:texan:

[stoops the eternal pimp]

Tom Coburn hates these cans!

[SCOUT]

I'm pretty sure I saw some folks trying to get respiratory therapy, Cancer Treatments and surgery this morning that they can no longer afford. I'm pretty sure that once you've lost your job and you aren't healthy enough to pass a physical that you aren't going to be able to get a job with benefits again. At that point you can put yourself in the system and hopefully someday get help. I think these folks deserve better.

Links?

I don't think we should spend $6.2 billion on assumptions. Perhaps they should take a little more time and make sure this is a sound financial investment?

[olevetonahill]

Come on Peeps, How many 1st responders and clean up folk could there be?
Hell if its a Million ( which i doubt) just give em all a Million each, and move on.
Saves 5.2 billion ;)

[Tulsa_Fireman]

That's the kicker, Vet.

From everything I've read on it, the money has entered a giant funnel of crap, being used to bolster failing hospitals and fund healthcare RELATED sources whose connection to the Ground Zero site workers is tenuous at best. Coburn is on the right track in demanding accountability but the job was never finished because leeches and monsters at the top of the political food chain sucked the life from the assistance packages before it ever got to Joe Bulldozer and Jane Fireman'swife.

So there's STILL a need. Joe Bulldozer still has cancer stemming from silicosis. Jane Fireman still has a dead husband who's been denied pension benefits because they've denied his suicide as a job-related cause even though he spent months wading through the carnage, ignoring the ravenous symptoms of PTSD as he searched in vain for anything remotely resembling his own son's godfather or his best friend.

[dwarthog]

Come on Peeps, How many 1st responders and clean up folk could there be?
Hell if its a Million ( which i doubt) just give em all a Million each, and move on.
Saves 5.2 billion ;)

1,000,000 x 1,000,000 = ought and ought, carry the ought....

1 Trillion dollars.

Still not a bad idea though. ;)

[sappstuf]

A compromise has been reached..


Sen. Tom Coburn (R., Okla.) has made a deal with Senate Democrats to allow the 9/11 first responders bill to go forward to the House today, assuming it passes the Senate as expected. In exchange for Coburn’s agreement to forgo the usual debate period, the bill’s price tag will decrease from $6.2 billion to $4.2 billion

Amazing that 2 billion can just be chopped off. It's almost like it wasn't really needed in the first place....

Quotes from Coburn.


“We’ve worked out a deal now that spends a whole lot less money, accomplishes exactly the same thing, and does it in a way that protects our future. Every bill should have to go through that — and the fact that they don’t is a problem. That’s why we’re $14 trillion in debt.”

“So I don’t mind taking the heat,” Coburn added, referring to the criticism about his opposition to the legislation. “You know, as a physician I care about those people. As a citizen, I care about the firefighters of my own city and every other city. The fact is you can still do it right. So you take all the heat, but you still it get done. So what we need is more people taking more heat so we get the right things done.”

[StoopTroup]

Links?

I don't think we should spend $6.2 billion on assumptions. Perhaps they should take a little more time and make sure this is a sound financial investment?

Scout...

There are links all over this thread where you can do research on all of this. Nearly every Senator agrees that there are a large amount of folks who need help. I'd say contact Rudy Giuliani or the NYC Mayor or the NYFD, NYPD and I'm betting they could lead you to plenty of these folks.

This video says there are over 100 dead now and 600 of the Initial responders who were affected and then later on the numbers rose to 1000's. How many thousands? I can't answer that but I could agree that it would have been cool to know how many there are and who they are by now. IMO Coburn was one of those people who should have been asking these very same questions long ago as he was on the Committee that looked into this bill. To do it now seems pretty heartless. Just because one guy from Oklahoma hasn't done his homework doesn't mean the need isn't there. I think if you use common sense you can look back through all of the debris that had to be moved from Ground Zero and then sifted through off site and cataloged and you can then start to get an idea of just how many folks worked in what has later been realized as a very dangerous job. More dangerous than first reported.

I use 3M respirators where I work and sometimes we have to have one of those on for hours and it takes some getting used to. If someone had been down there and had one of those...I can't imagine not having to take it off for a bit to clean it and put new filters on it without not having a tent or area where you could go to not be exposed. Truth is....most people don't go to the trouble and many end up ditching them when they aren't sure about the danger. It's not a good idea but these were very awkward circumstances. We are just talking about workers here too. There were many more folks including GWB who were down there with no or very little protection after the attacks.

I'm not sure exactly why more folks can't see this and hopefully this won't be an issue much longer and the Senate will either pass it or continue to turn a blind eye on the Senators who have many of these folks sitting outside their offices asking for help or having to look their Families in the eye in 5 years and say sorry for not being able to help.

Here's the first video I searched for which was posted on YouTube over a year ago now.



IxzwT-ICZ2g

Rumsfeld....no mask.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Rumsfeld_and_Giuliani_at_Ground_Zero.jpg/250px-Rumsfeld_and_Giuliani_at_Ground_Zero.jpg

Kissinger - No mask

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/1166663.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921F7C3FC3F69D929FDE3883F635EBE04F9 1FB5A03A46880A036DEEA7725E76C2F3E30A760B0D811297

These were all people who were trying to rally America to overcome this tragedy and the folks who worked down there did exactly that. It was more than just 600 people.

[olevetonahill]

1,000,000 x 1,000,000 = ought and ought, carry the ought....

1 Trillion dollars.

Still not a bad idea though. ;)

Nope Wiki says a Billion is a Million Million

Long and short scales

* 1,000,000,000,000 (number), one million million, 1012, in the long scale

[StoopTroup]

Hopefully Dr. Tom did what was right and he continues to make sure these folks who are in need get what they need.

[soonercoop1]

You know he's just using tactics to stop the spending right? This isn't about judgement...it's about his principles. In this case he's not getting much support. At least today media wise it seems that way.

Tom is on the Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions and is knowledgeable as a Physician. You would think he'd have legitimate specific concerns other than what he's saying right now. He's a smart guy but on this one...I'm questioning his agenda not his judgement.

http://coburn.senate.gov/public/?p=CommitteeAssignments

He better start getting support from his colleagues or they will be gone...obviously neither party will admit what the election landslide was about and seems it is business as usual...don't think they realize that this is their last chance to drastically reduce the size and scope of the federal government...once again they have done just the opposite in the lame duck session...

[dwarthog]

Nope Wiki says a Billion is a Million Million

Long and short scales

* 1,000,000,000,000 (number), one million million, 1012, in the long scale

Wiki also says I am tall, handsome and cool, none of which is true. ;)

(Ok, so I am really not in Wiki....)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales


Long scale is the English translation of the French term échelle longue. It refers to a system of large number names in which every new term greater than million is 1,000,000 times the previous term: billion means a million millions (1012), trillion means a million billions (1018), and so on.

Short scale is the English translation of the French term échelle courte. It refers to a system of large number names in which every new term greater than million is 1,000 times the previous term: billion means a thousand millions (109), trillion means a thousand billions (1012), and so on.

Still doesn't mean your idear is bad. What's a couple of extra zeroes amongst friends? :D

[cccasooner2]

A compromise has been reached..



Amazing that 2 billion can just be chopped off. It's almost like it wasn't really needed in the first place....

Quotes from Coburn.

You took your smart pills this morning!!

[okie52]

A compromise has been reached..



Amazing that 2 billion can just be chopped off. It's almost like it wasn't really needed in the first place....

Quotes from Coburn.

Somehow they are just struggle on by with 4.2 billion.

[cccasooner2]

Wiki also says I am tall, handsome and cool, none of which is true. ;)

(Ok, so I am really not in Wiki....)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales



Still doesn't mean your idear is bad. What's a couple of extra zeroes amongst friends? :D

A billion is a thousand million. The table shows the correct number.

[StoopTroup]

He better start getting support from his colleagues or they will be gone...obviously neither party will admit what the election landslide was about and seems it is business as usual...don't think they realize that this is their last chance to drastically reduce the size and scope of the federal government...once again they have done just the opposite in the lame duck session...

I wouldn't say it's their last chance until folks start getting rid of them. Until they are actually gone....it will still be business as usual.

[sappstuf]

Somehow they are just struggle on by with 4.2 billion.

They capped lawyer fees at 10%. In the Dem version it was uncapped.

[StoopTroup]

It wouldn't have gone through at all if the Lawyers didn't get paid I guess. Thank God they got took care of them?

[okie52]

They capped lawyer fees at 10%. In the Dem version it was uncapped.


2 billion taken away from the lawyers. What a shame.

[sooner n houston]

It calls for closing the Victims Compensation Fund in 2016 instead of 2031, preventing claimants from pursuing civil lawsuits if rejected from the fund, and limiting infrastructure costs and attorney fees.

"Every American recognizes the heroism of the 9/11 first responders, but it is not compassionate to help one group while robbing future generations of opportunity," Coburn said in a statement after the deal was reached. "I'm pleased this agreement strikes a fair balance and improves the bill the majority attempted to rush through at the last minute."

[Bourbon St Sooner]

2 billion taken away from the lawyers. What a shame.

[Froze,Homey] Why do you hate selfless American heroes? [/Froze,Homey]

[StoopTroup]

It calls for closing the Victims Compensation Fund in 2016 instead of 2031, preventing claimants from pursuing civil lawsuits if rejected from the fund, and limiting infrastructure costs and attorney fees.

"Every American recognizes the heroism of the 9/11 first responders, but it is not compassionate to help one group while robbing future generations of opportunity," Coburn said in a statement after the deal was reached. "I'm pleased this agreement strikes a fair balance and improves the bill the majority attempted to rush through at the last minute."

What's funny is so many Folks thought someone would raid the fund of all the money without helping the folks who need it. Tales of the Hospitals and Care Givers reaping huge money for nothing when all along there were Attorney's to watchdog it all. :D

Thankfully Dr. Tom took care of all that.:rolleyes:

He is amazing.

[pphilfran]

Send him a note. He personally replies to all email.

I have sent him three over the years and always received a well thought out reply.

http://coburn.senate.gov/public/?p=ContactForm

[Leroy Lizard]

What's funny is so many Folks thought someone would raid the fund of all the money without helping the folks who need it. Tales of the Hospitals and Care Givers reaping huge money for nothing when all along there were Attorney's to watchdog it all. :D

Thankfully Dr. Tom took care of all that.:rolleyes:

He is amazing.

Why don't you just admit that the country almost got emotionally suckered into spending $2 billion more than it had to?

[KC//CRIMSON]

You might actually be retarded.

might?

This whole Christmas spirit thing is starting to cloud your judgement. Stop it.

[StoopTroup]

Why don't you just admit that the country almost got emotionally suckered into spending $2 billion more than it had to?

Because the fund will run out of money possibly?

Because I don't give a **** about anything you have to say regarding this....I just hope we never have to see something like this again in America?

I know you only care about laying down as much message board chit chat as you can so you can later find something to jab into other posters ribs and then go jack yourself...but for me....this was a whole lot more about helping folks who selflessly gave of themselves and now are suffering and some suffering the ultimate price. I'm glad Dr. Tom found a loophole to keep himself from looking like the largest jackass in America. Thankfully he left the top spot to you.

[usaosooner]

glad it went through

[pphilfran]

Because the fund will run out of money possibly?

Because I don't give a **** about anything you have to say regarding this....I just hope we never have to see something like this again in America?

I know you only care about laying down as much message board chit chat as you can so you can later find something to jab into other posters ribs and then go jack yourself...but for me....this was a whole lot more about helping folks who selflessly gave of themselves and now are suffering and some suffering the ultimate price. I'm glad Dr. Tom found a loophole to keep himself from looking like the largest jackass in America. Thankfully he left the top spot to you.

Come on...tell us how you really feel...

Colburn didn't find a loophole...he did exactly what the majority of the voters wanted him to do...be fiscally responsible...

[StoopTroup]

Come on...tell us how you really feel...

Colburn didn't find a loophole...he did exactly what the majority of the voters wanted him to do...be fiscally responsible...

He seemed to really care.....I am touched. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure where you get the voter deal unless you are talking about the last election. If you mean Senate voters...I think he was pretty much on his own. As far as the last election is concerned and being fiscally responsible...he had 22 hearings to try and get what he wanted prior to the elections. In the last two days...he just held the bill hostage as far as I'm concerned. Saving 2 billion from Attorney's was an after thought and it seems to me he was smart enough to have himself an out in case he didn't get support for his little stoppage. Again...this wasn't about politics for me...it was about helping people. Our folks up in DC have pissed away fortunes over the last 3 decades. A couple of billion saved might be the right thing to do....but it damn sure didn't happen because of what an initial "We need to cut from somewhere to make sure this is paid for" was supposed to do. So much for Fiscal Responsibility.

[pphilfran]

He seemed to really care.....I am touched. :rolleyes:

So you are happy just spending money that didn't need to be spent?

You are not concerned about our debt?

Are there other places that we could have taken money to pay for the full bill?

Why was it not passed years ago?

Why drag it out at the last minute?

[soonercoop1]

I wouldn't say it's their last chance until folks start getting rid of them. Until they are actually gone....it will still be business as usual.

Might I say one of their last "peaceful" chances...hope I'm wrong...trillions in debt with corrupt, criminal politicians/bureaucrats running a tyrannical federal government creating more legislation and debt leading to more lost freedom for the rest of us...peachy...

[bigfatjerk]

I don't think the real fight has begun yet. I think the real battles will start when we see the republicans try and get spending back to 2008 or before levels. I still think that is way too high. But when the republicans start going after these social things that probably aren't necessary for jobs right now, that's when the real battles will start.

[GKeeper316]

i'm just trying to imagine tom ****ing coburn's outrage if this had been murrah bombing related and not 9/11.

coburn's a giant ******nozzle.

[soonercoop1]

i'm just trying to imagine tom ****ing coburn's outrage if this had been murrah bombing related and not 9/11.

coburn's a giant ******nozzle.

One of the very few politicians in DC trying to actually do the right thing...guy is a real American hero...

[bigfatjerk]

i'm just trying to imagine tom ****ing coburn's outrage if this had been murrah bombing related and not 9/11.

coburn's a giant ******nozzle.

This was a guy that when he was in the house he was going after his own republicans for spending too much. He's been against spending longer than anyone else in congress outside of probably Ron Paul.

[usaosooner]

i'm just trying to imagine tom ****ing coburn's outrage if this had been murrah bombing related and not 9/11.

coburn's a giant ******nozzle.

+rep

[Tiptonsooner]

WTC housed MANY federal offices, from the FBI to the NSA and so on. I couldn;t care less for either party, but this issue feels right to me. It feels right to help these guys.



The liberals mantra, "If it feels good, do it"

[StoopTroup]

I don't think the real fight has begun yet. I think the real battles will start when we see the republicans try and get spending back to 2008 or before levels. I still think that is way too high. But when the republicans start going after these social things that probably aren't necessary for jobs right now, that's when the real battles will start.

Which for me...I guess that's fine. It does have to stop somewhere same as all Wars. We really have some stuff out there tapping into funds that could be used to take care of Americans in their old age, repair or build infrastructure, bring back manufacturing to this Country again, continue to be the leader in technology....the list is huge. Same as folks who quit investing in their people...many Americans have quit spending a bit similar as the folks did in the 1930's. You have to have the bulk of your able bodied people in America spending and believing in the future...if you don't then we become followers and I just don't believe that's what Americans and even folks who come to America intend to do. Sure there are a percentage of slackers but if people really want a better life...they will work if you give them decent wages and benefits. If you expect them to work like slaves....you'll get the work of slaves. Also you can't run every Mom and Pop operation into oblivion or Walmart them into poverty.

[StoopTroup]

The liberals mantra, "If it feels good, do it"

What's the Conservatives? "OMG! I'm gonna blow.....it on your back....I'm pulling out!"

[cccasooner2]

.... If you expect them to work like slaves....you'll get the work of slaves.

The pyramids are pretty cool though.

[StoopTroup]

The pyramids are pretty cool though.

Wait until you find out all those missing children on milk cartons....they aren't exactly missing. The gov't hand picked them from "Leave No Child Behind" test scores and they are all currently on a Transport to Mars to mine for some minerals that will replace plutonium.

True story. I got it from one of my sources.

[bigfatjerk]

many Americans have quit spending a bit similar as the folks did in the 1930's. .
The problem in the 30s wasn't the people spending. The people spending is never that bad. It was down a bit when the money supply was contracted, but that's because there was less money out there. The problem in the 30s was government getting too big. The fed getting to powerful. And overall worldwide depressions were going on. Honestly we didn't have it too bad in America till the polices of Hoover and FDR kept getting worse and worse and, and closer to bigger and bigger government

[StoopTroup]

The problem in the 30s wasn't the people spending. The people spending is never a bad thing. The problem in the 30s was government getting too big. The fed getting to powerful. And overall worldwide depressions were going on. Honestly we didn't have it too bad in America till the polices of Hoover and FDR kept getting worse and worse and, and closer to bigger and bigger government

Agreed but people did quit spending. Food was key then as I remember my Grandparents and Father telling me.

[bigfatjerk]

Agreed but people did quit spending. Food was key then as I remember my Grandparents and Father telling me.

People didn't spend as much but that's because everything was too expensive to buy. Government got too involved and ended up raising the prices too much.