Got kicked out of the jury box

[SanJoaquinSooner]

by the defense attorney without cause. He was asking most everyone if they had a college degree and what they majored in. He also asked followup questions about prior jury experience.

The case was a DUI mister meaner charge.

I wondered if they have a profiling cheat sheet on which majors are more likely to vote guilty - like a football coach has on when to go for two extra points.

The prosecuter was definitely cuter. A young thing who I could have stared at for the duration of the trial. Maybe the defense attorney observed me staring at her too much. The prosecutor booted those who told horror stories of dealing with cops, as you might expect. One prospective juror said she rather not talk about her last bad interaction with a cop because it might cause her to have an out-of-body experience - which is what happened the last time she talked about that stressful event. She was the first one booted by the prosecution.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

But the funniest thing in the selection process was when the prosecutor was asking us about drinking - if we drink alcohol, or if maybe Uncle Rico had too much to drink at Thanksgiving dinner and shouldn't be driving.

One prospective juror volunteered, "you just can't be too careful in those situations. When I drive drunk, I'm extra careful."

Even the judge chuckled.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

nm.

[yermom]

that sounds like a bunch of crap

[Leroy Lizard]

I got out by faking that I was the argumentative type that wouldn't listen to the other person's story. It took some doing, but after about two hours the judge, both attorneys, the bailiff, and all other 42 potential jurors wanted me out of there. I even had one potential juror, an international businessman, volunteering to take my place.

[AlbqSooner]

Easiest way off a jury:

At the first question that gives you ANY opening to do so, say, "I don't think this case ought to even be in Court."

[Midtowner]

Picking a jury is more of an art than a science. It may have been just that you were educated. If you pick a jury which is mostly GED and HS Diploma types, and you have one person with a college degree, it's likely that you'll be trying your case to that one individual with a college degree because they'll tend to be more persuasive in the jury room.

Also, yes, I have noticed that new female Assistant District Attorneys in Oklahoma County are all pretty attractive. Just another reason I think David Prater is a huge upgrade.

[Soonermagik]

Easiest way off a jury:

At the first question that gives you ANY opening to do so, say, "I don't think this case ought to even be in Court."

That or just be nonsensical. Give totally irrelevant answers that really mean nothing i.e.

DA: Do you have a college degree and what is it in?

You: Okay

DA: Huh

You: Yes

DA: Awkward pause

You: Tell a story about your childhood and laugh a lot.

Then go enjoy the rest of your day knowing you won't be waiting for days in a courthouse. :)

[Howzit]

On one jury selection I participated in, a young man had been killed while driving drunk and his parents were sueing the bar where he had been drinking. I was asked if I knew anyone that owned a bar, and I said that I did.

Outta there.

[The]

I've always wanted to be on a jury.

Never been called.

[OUMallen]

I'm DQed from service. Always wanted to, though.

[My Opinion Matters]

I got out by faking that I was the argumentative type that wouldn't listen to the other person's story. It took some doing, but after about two hours the judge, both attorneys, the bailiff, and all other 42 potential jurors wanted me out of there. I even had one potential juror, an international businessman, volunteering to take my place.

Aren't you describing your SF.com experience?

[Breadburner]

I got out by faking that I was the argumentative type that wouldn't listen to the other person's story. It took some doing, but after about two hours the judge, both attorneys, the bailiff, and all other 42 potential jurors wanted me out of there. I even had one potential juror, an international businessman, volunteering to take my place.

Bull****.....2 hours my ***.....

[mgsooner]

That or just be nonsensical. Give totally irrelevant answers that really mean nothing i.e.

DA: Do you have a college degree and what is it in?

You: WHO IS YOUR DADDY, AND WHAT DOES HE DO?

DA: Huh

You: YES

DA: Awkward pause

You: YOU LACK DISCIPLINE!!!

Then go enjoy the rest of your day knowing you won't be waiting for days in a courthouse. :)

:twinkies:

[SpankyNek]

Harris County (TX over 4 million residents) has had such difficulty fielding juries, that they are going with a different approach. All jurors are brought into a central location and are screened.

Hate drinking...here's a theft case we can use you on.
Want to shoot thieves in the head....here's a drunk driving case we need you for.

If you get selected for duty here, you will be used.

[soonerchk]

One prospective juror said she rather not talk about her last bad interaction with a cop because it might cause her to have an out-of-body experience - which is what happened the last time she talked about that stressful event. She was the first one booted by the prosecution.

I'm going to try that next time.

[Soonerwake]

Harris County (TX over 4 million residents) has had such difficulty fielding juries, that they are going with a different approach. All jurors are brought into a central location and are screened.

Hate drinking...here's a theft case we can use you on.
Want to shoot thieves in the head....here's a drunk driving case we need you for.

If you get selected for duty here, you will be used.

That is actually a really good idea.

[The]

BTW, a jury trial for a misdemeanor DUI is idiotic. Lawyer got greedy.

[Jammin']

Lawyer got greedy.

Suddenly?

[diegosooner]

I got out by faking that I was the argumentative type that wouldn't listen to the other person's story. It took some doing, but after about two hours the judge, both attorneys, the bailiff, and all other 42 potential jurors wanted me out of there. I even had one potential juror, an international businessman, volunteering to take my place.

A guaranteed hung jury. There is some law of physics that prevents a consensus to include Leroy Lizard.

[3rdgensooner]

I got out by faking that I was the argumentative type that wouldn't listen to the other person's story.

How in the world did you ever pull that off?

[sperry]

Harris County (TX over 4 million residents) has had such difficulty fielding juries, that they are going with a different approach. All jurors are brought into a central location and are screened.

Hate drinking...here's a theft case we can use you on.
Want to shoot thieves in the head....here's a drunk driving case we need you for.

If you get selected for duty here, you will be used.


They still voire dire, and only 13 or 14 of the 64 will get selected.


The easiest way to get booted, is to say "well if he wasn't guilty, than he wouldn't be on trial."

[StoopTroup]

Easiest way off a jury:

At the first question that gives you ANY opening to do so, say, "I don't think this case ought to even be in Court."

What about something like....

You know....what's amazing to me is that people were outraged that Judge Roy Bean hung people. I though he was an amazing man who knew how to get things done. He was nothing like you buncha pussies." ????

[Frozen Sooner]

BTW, a jury trial for a misdemeanor DUI is idiotic. Lawyer got greedy.

Not the lawyer's call. The right to a jury trial is personal to the defendant and cannot be waived by the lawyer. That right attaches even in a misdemeanor proceeding under federal constitutional law if there's the possibility of 6 months and 1 day of imprisonment. Oklahoma may have even stronger state constitutional protections that that. However, the penalty for misdemeanor DUI in Oklahoma certainly suffices for the federal constitutional right to attach.

Blame the client, not the attorney.

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm DQed from service. Always wanted to, though.

Felony conviction?

[The]

Not the lawyer's call. The right to a jury trial is personal to the defendant and cannot be waived by the lawyer. That right attaches even in a misdemeanor proceeding under federal constitutional law if there's the possibility of 6 months and 1 day of imprisonment. Oklahoma may have even stronger state constitutional protections that that. However, the penalty for misdemeanor DUI in Oklahoma certainly suffices for the federal constitutional right to attach.

Blame the client, not the attorney.

No, I blame the attorney for charging the client an obscene fee for an unnecessary and potentially disastrous trial when he can take a smaller fee to plea it down, or work a deal.

Preying on people's ignorance is a proud tradition in the legal community.

[Frozen Sooner]

Every one of those decisions is the client's, not the attorney's. Tell me you knew?

Out of curiosity, how do you know how much the attorney charged and that it wasn't a public defender? How do you know a plea deal was even offered? How do you know that his client didn't refuse a plea deal that WAS offered?

Perhaps his client was factually innocent. You think that the lawyer was then unethical to fail to plea his charge down?

[yermom]

No, I blame the attorney for charging the client an obscene fee for an unnecessary and potentially disastrous trial when he can take a smaller fee to plea it down, or work a deal.

Preying on people's ignorance is a proud tradition in the legal community.

Froze is used to it, he used to be a banker ;)

[The]

Every one of those decisions is the client's, not the attorney's. Tell me you knew?

Out of curiosity, how do you know how much the attorney charged and that it wasn't a public defender? How do you know a plea deal was even offered? How do you know that his client didn't refuse a plea deal that WAS offered?

Perhaps his client was factually innocent. You think that the lawyer was then unethical to fail to plea his charge down?


One of the main reasons people hire attorneys is to utilize their experience. There is a level of trust that can easily be manipulated. Maybe the client is an idiot and demanded a trial by jury. An ethical attorney would do whatever he could to talk him out of that.
Public defenders would never take a misdemeanor (or even felony) DUI to a jury trial. Way too much time.
Maybe he was innocent, though proving that is near impossible in a DUI situation. The consequences of losing a jury trial, even if you are innocent, far outweigh whatever deal you can reach with the DA.While I'm not an anti-lawyer hillbilly, I've seen enough greed whores bilking folks for as much as they can in the guise of legal help to realize this happens. A lot.

[AlboSooner]

N
Blame the client, not the attorney.

a challenger appears...

[Frozen Sooner]

And again, other than your own suppositions, why do you assume that the attorney didn't try to talk him out of a jury trial? At some point, you have to acede to your client's instructions so long as they don't put you in a TRULY unethical situation, like eliciting perjurious testimony.

They may, they may not. While the right to a jury trial can be waived by the defendant, there is no right to a bench trial. Most jurisdictions (and I confess I don't know if OK follows the majority on this) require either the prosecutor or the judge to acede to a bench trial.

Sure, it's possible that a jury trial comes to a worse outcome than a plea agreement. But again, that's up to the client, not the attorney. If the attorney tells the client over and over again that he's going to get hammered in court unless he takes the plea deal, and the client refuses the plea, the attorney has to go to trial.

Further, it may have even been a rational decision to not accept the plea. What if the plea deal offered wasn't good, or if the prosecutor decided he wasn't going to plea bargain? What if part of the plea deal was a reckless driving charge, which would lose the guy his CDL and his livelihood?

You simply don't know enough about the situation to make blanket statements like you have. Sure, there's a possibility that this went to a jury trial because the guy's attorney manipulated him into it, but jeez.

[The]

And again, other than your own suppositions, why do you assume that the attorney didn't try to talk him out of a jury trial? At some point, you have to acede to your client's instructions so long as they don't put you in a TRULY unethical situation, like eliciting perjurious testimony.

They may, they may not. While the right to a jury trial can be waived by the defendant, there is no right to a bench trial. Most jurisdictions (and I confess I don't know if OK follows the majority on this) require either the prosecutor or the judge to acede to a bench trial.

Sure, it's possible that a jury trial comes to a worse outcome than a plea agreement. But again, that's up to the client, not the attorney. If the attorney tells the client over and over again that he's going to get hammered in court unless he takes the plea deal, and the client refuses the plea, the attorney has to go to trial.

Further, it may have even been a rational decision to not accept the plea. What if the plea deal offered wasn't good, or if the prosecutor decided he wasn't going to plea bargain? What if part of the plea deal was a reckless driving charge, which would lose the guy his CDL and his livelihood?

You simply don't know enough about the situation to make blanket statements like you have. Sure, there's a possibility that this went to a jury trial because the guy's attorney manipulated him into it, but jeez.

You're just repeating yourself for the most part here.

CDL? That's a DPS matter, which is wholly unrelated to the criminal proceedings. The breathalyzer/refusal is sent by the arresting agency to DPS, which triggers automatic license suspensions. You can request an administrative hearing to dispute the suspension, but if anyone can find a single instance where this has been successful, it would make you a hell of a researcher.

While obviously all I know of this particular case is that it went to jury trial, knowing how utterly and completely idiotic that course of action is, assumptions surrounding the rationale behind that decision can be made. Crappy attorney, or more likely, greed whore attorney being the leading candidates.

[Frozen Sooner]

Oh, sorry, I tend to repeat myself when responding to someone making the same unsupported allegations over and over. I suppose you were twigged to the fact that I was repeating myself when I started the post with "And again." That signals the fact that I was addressing points you just made which I had already addressed.

[The]

Oh, sorry, I tend to repeat myself when responding to someone making the same unsupported allegations over and over.

You should work on that.

[SpankyNek]

There are a lot of DUIs (Or DWIs as the case may be) being litigated and overturned down here.

Of note:
There is no physical evidence in most cases. (Breathalyzer evidence is fleeting).
They are able to call into question individual machines and their service history.
It is not illegal to drink and drive...only to drink to excess and drive.

Many go to trial here due to the substantial penalties associated with the crime.

(I believe a 2nd infraction in Texas is a State Jail Felony...6 months to 2 years in State Jail...no early releases in State Jail)

[yermom]

it's too easy for fancy lawyerin' to get you off for those...

but, really that system is a little broken

in a perfect world, it would be based on actual impairment. alcoholics are really penalized for a high tolerance. i know people that could probably drive better after 15 beers than i could after 5, or on 30+ hours of no sleep

not that i think anyone should really be driving under any of those circumstances.

[Midtowner]

I represent folks on DUI charges in Oklahoma.

If it's misdemeanor, most likely, we're talking about their first offense.

If it's that, most likely, if the defendant pays some fines and takes some classes, they're getting it dismissed or getting it deferred. A jury trial isn't going to go well for them.

Also, as a lawyer, I can limit my involvement. For a trial, I charge x, for a plea, I charge y.

I can't see doing a trial on a misdemeanor unless there is some very legitimate issue of fact.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

I represent folks on DUI charges in Oklahoma.

If it's misdemeanor, most likely, we're talking about their first offense.

If it's that, most likely, if the defendant pays some fines and takes some classes, they're getting it dismissed or getting it deferred. A jury trial isn't going to go well for them.

Also, as a lawyer, I can limit my involvement. For a trial, I charge x, for a plea, I charge y.

I can't see doing a trial on a misdemeanor unless there is some very legitimate issue of fact.

This case is in California. I believe the 2nd and 3nd convictions on DUIs are misdemeanors (if no injuries/deaths) but they do carry mandatory jail sentences and license suspension for 2 or 3 years. 4th time is felony DUI.

I'm not sure what may be different in California that might lead to a trial by jury, but I did serve on a jury on a case with the same charge about 20 years ago, just after moving out here. The guy refused to be tested when he was arrested. We found him guilty.

[A Sooner in Texas]

I got out by faking that I was the argumentative type that wouldn't listen to the other person's story.


What's wrong with this picture?

[picasso]

On one jury selection I participated in, a young man had been killed while driving drunk and his parents were sueing the bar where he had been drinking. I was asked if I knew anyone that owned a bar, and I said that I did.

Outta there.

Blue Oyster?

I got out of my only experience about 12 years ago in Osage county. Pretty humiliating sitting in front of God and everybody whilst answering personal questions.
Turns out the prosecutor didn't like me because I'd been the victim of a cheap shot in a Tulsa dive once upon a time. That and the fact that I once had a beer with the defendant and was told more or less by a fella with him that he was crazier than ****.

[SanJoaquinSooner]

What's wrong with this picture?

Leroy must have forgotten the ;)

[AlbqSooner]

BTW, a jury trial for a misdemeanor DUI is idiotic. Lawyer got greedy.

Perhaps it was the assistant District Attorney who got greedy. When I last practiced in Oklahoma, criminal juries were given two verdict forms.

One said "We the jury . . . find the Defendant NOT guilty." The other form said "We the jury . . . find the defendant guilty and fix his punishment at _________."

The penalty for DUI was not less than 10 days nor more than one year, a fine or not more than $500, or both.

If the prosecutor insisted on a plea deal that would require something like 6 months in the County jail, I almost automatically said put 6 in the box and lets try it. That would be after consulting with my client of course. I don't recall ever having a jury give more than 30 days in jail for a misdemeanor DUI.

[King Barry's Back]

I got out by faking that I was the argumentative type that wouldn't listen to the other person's story.

WHy am I not shocked that you pulled this off? :)

[Frozen Sooner]

Perhaps it was the assistant District Attorney who got greedy. When I last practiced in Oklahoma, criminal juries were given two verdict forms.

One said "We the jury . . . find the Defendant NOT guilty." The other form said "We the jury . . . find the defendant guilty and fix his punishment at _________."

The penalty for DUI was not less than 10 days nor more than one year, a fine or not more than $500, or both.

If the prosecutor insisted on a plea deal that would require something like 6 months in the County jail, I almost automatically said put 6 in the box and lets try it. That would be after consulting with my client of course. I don't recall ever having a jury give more than 30 days in jail for a misdemeanor DUI.

Greedhead. :rolleyes: You should have done everything in your power to convince your client to take the six months.

[The]

Greedhead. :rolleyes: You should have done everything in your power to convince your client to take the six months.

In your haste to defend the seedier side of your future position, you misread what he said.

[Frozen Sooner]

In your haste to defend the seedier side of your future position, you misread what he said.

In your haste to make a blanket generalization, you failed to read where an offer of a terrible plea deal was one reason a misdemeanor DUI should go to trial.

[The]

In your haste to make a blanket generalization, you failed to read where an offer of a terrible plea deal was one reason a misdemeanor DUI should go to trial.

Terrible pleas deals like 6 months for a misdemeanor DUI are beyond rare. Except in public defender instances. In which case it won't go to trial in the first place.

The only exception to this, in which I will concede a point by fueling speculation, is a previous violent criminal history. In which case, odds are you're better off taking the six month anyway. Even multiple DUIs, upwards of double digits, don't get this kind of deal.

[Thaumaturge]

Drunk drivers ought to be executed. If I were a defense attorney representing one, I would accept no plea deal for anything less than execution because that is the right thing to do.

[The]

Drunk drivers ought to be executed. If I were a defense attorney representing one, I would accept no plea deal for anything less than execution because that is the right thing to do.

I'm more in favor of random executions. Just throw a dart board on a map and execute everyone that lives in the house.

As an example to the rest of the rabble.

[Frozen Sooner]

I guess all of Albq's clients were multiple violent offenders who ended up getting hammered at trial.

You're familiar with the charging and plea practices in California? I mean, I'm not, but then I'm not the one claiming that the attorney in SJS's example was either ****ty or unethical.

[Thaumaturge]

I'm more in favor of random executions. Just throw a dart board on a map and execute everyone that lives in the house.

As an example to the rest of the rabble.

That's what drunk drivers are doing every time they get behind the wheel.

[The]

I guess all of Albq's clients were multiple violent offenders who ended up getting hammered at trial.

You're familiar with the charging and plea practices in California? I mean, I'm not, but then I'm not the one claiming that the attorney in SJS's example was either ****ty or unethical.

In all seriousness, I'm losing grasp as to what you are arguing here. Going to a jury trial for a misdemeanor DUI is idiotic in all but the most bizarre, anomalous situations, situations rare enough that the mitigating circumstances are of more import than the DUI itself.

I mean, I get that lawyers, much like thieves, are a very thick, tight bunch. However, I stand by my assertion that any such case that goes to trial for legitimate grounds is the exception that proves the rule that unscrupulous lawyers would seek to maximize their earnings by taking advantage of legally ignorant clients.

If however, you would like to continue to defend the TV attorneys and their ilk, by all means, proceed.

[Frozen Sooner]

I'm not actually sure what you hope to gain by putting words in my mouth. I'm not defending TV attorneys, I'm pointing out that you don't know a dang thing about this particular case. Or are you now sure that in addition to the other assumptions you've made this guy was defended by a TV attorney? Should the vast majority of DUI charges get pleaded out? Sure. But if the only fact you have is that the charge went to trial, then to flatly state that the reason it went to trial is because the guy's lawyer was unethical--particularly when you don't know the particular jurisdiction involved, and what might have gone into the decision to go to trial--is ridiculous.

[SpankyNek]

Terrible pleas deals like 6 months for a misdemeanor DUI are beyond rare. Except in public defender instances. In which case it won't go to trial in the first place.

The only exception to this, in which I will concede a point by fueling speculation, is a previous violent criminal history. In which case, odds are you're better off taking the six month anyway. Even multiple DUIs, upwards of double digits, don't get this kind of deal.

As has been mentioned several times, it is up to the defendant whether it goes to trial or not.

The Public Defender can resort to some strong arm tactics, stalling, or subterfuge in an attempt to avoid trial, but it is not his decision.

[The]

I'm not actually sure what you hope to gain by putting words in my mouth. Should the vast majority of DUI charges get pleaded out? Sure. But if the only fact you have is that the charge went to trial, then to flatly state that the reason it went to trial is because the guy's lawyer was unethical--particularly when you don't know the particular jurisdiction involved, and what might have gone into the decision to go to trial--is ridiculous.

And for what it's worth, I'm not in the practice of defending any attorney who advertises.

I'm simply playing percentages. Odds are it was a sleazy attorney. Might not have been, but hey, I'm willing to take that risk. Cuz that's how I roll.

[Frozen Sooner]

Oh. Well, playing the percentages, no criminal charge should ever go to trial.

[yermom]

I'm simply playing percentages. Odds are it was a sleazy attorney. Might not have been, but hey, I'm willing to take that risk. Cuz that's how I roll.

wait, are there non-sleazy attorneys?

[olevetonahill]

Hey "THE" Leroid stole yer password.

[Frozen Sooner]

wait, are there non-sleazy attorneys?

Strong words coming from a guy who looks like he bathes once a decade, whether he needs it or not. ;)

[The]

As has been mentioned several times, it is up to the defendant whether it goes to trial or not.

The Public Defender can resort to some strong arm tactics, stalling, or subterfuge in an attempt to avoid trial, but it is not his decision.

There's the idolized version of what a Public Defender is, then there's the reality.

If you somehow manage to force a Public Defender into a trial, I would start making plans to be away for quite sometime.

[yermom]

Strong words coming from a guy who looks like he bathes once a decade, whether he needs it or not. ;)

hey, i had just bathed when you saw me last

you should see me now ;)

[Frozen Sooner]

hey, i had just bathed when you saw me last

you should see me now ;)

Gotta cam? :texan:

(because if not, I know some guys who might sell you one for $180k+$1)


(see what I did there?)

[Aldebaran]

Just tell em' you don't know how someone would dream of committing a crime when it's turtles all the way down.

[unbiasedtruth]

been selected twice, both times murder trials.... no matter what the 1st question asked was I replied, "if you have a hard time finding someone to pull the trigger, flip a switch, push a plunger or pull a lever let me know. I dont have a problem putting somene to death that commits a crime against another human."

Both times I was asked to eloborate on what i said... told them wasnt enough clean air and water left in the world for everyone. gotta start somewhere in reducing the population.

I was scolded by the judge both times for "my way of thinking" and dismissed.