Buying physical metals

[Sooner5030]

Looking for a cliff notes version of “buying metals for dumbies”. I have finally convinced Mrs. 5030 that we need to take 10% of our savings and purchase some gold and silver and put it in a safe. Not as an investment but more as an insurance policy.

There’s a place in OKC, apmex.com but there physical prices are above spot. I thought the rule of thumb was that physical should be about 20% below spot?

Also need recommendations on whether to purchase coins or bullion and where the best places are to buy.

Plz..thnx

[GDC]

I sold around $20 worth of copper and other scrap down at the local junk yard last week. I guess that makes me part of the metals market, even though I bought high and sold low.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

I still don't understand why buying gold right now is even remotely a sound financial decision.

If and when currencies start to reclaimn a little value, won't gold fall?

[SicEmBaylor]

Looking for a cliff notes version of “buying metals for dumbies”. I have finally convinced Mrs. 5030 that we need to take 10% of our savings and purchase some gold and silver and put it in a safe. Not as an investment but more as an insurance policy.

There’s a place in OKC, apmex.com but there physical prices are above spot. I thought the rule of thumb was that physical should be about 20% below spot?

Also need recommendations on whether to purchase coins or bullion and where the best places are to buy.

Plz..thnx

Interesting that you brought this up, I was just talking to someone the other day about investing in precious metals. I too would be interested in any information anyone has.

[The]

Give me your monies, plox

[Blue]

I still don't understand why buying gold right now is even remotely a sound financial decision.

If and when currencies start to reclaimn a little value, won't gold fall?

Yeah. It's only doubled in value in about a year. :D

[Sooner5030]

it's not an investment.......it's insurance. Just like keeping about 5k in cash is a loss as an investment some do it just in case.

[SicEmBaylor]

I still don't understand why buying gold right now is even remotely a sound financial decision.

If and when currencies start to reclaimn a little value, won't gold fall?

Yep. I'm no expert by any means but if gold is at its highest levels ever then buying now doesn't seem to make real financial sense. You buy gold when the economy and dollar are strong.

There are other metals though...

I'm kind of interested in metals that will be used for a variety of high-tech applications.

[saucysoonergal]

I'm putting all my money in Physical Graffiti.

[The]

Yep. I'm no expert by any means but if gold is at its highest levels ever then buying now doesn't seem to make real financial sense. You buy gold when the economy and dollar are strong.

There are other metals though...

I'm kind of interested in metals that will be used for a variety of high-tech applications.

Like Copper.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

There are other metals though...

I'm kind of interested in metals that will be used for a variety of high-tech applications.

I've heard silver isn't a bad play.

And uranium is booming in the persian markets. Hyuk hyuk hyuk.

[NormanPride]

I like the sound of tungsten.


TUNGsten... TUNGsten... Fun to say.

[Blue]

Yep. I'm no expert by any means but if gold is at its highest levels ever then buying now doesn't seem to make real financial sense. You buy gold when the economy and dollar are strong.

There are other metals though...

I'm kind of interested in metals that will be used for a variety of high-tech applications.

It will only go up in my opinion.

The fed is printing money like mad. other countries are getting out of dollars.

The skys the limit for gold, silver, copper, etc..

[Sooner5030]

I've changed my status to BUNKER DEFCON 1. That means purchase and hide some metals with intrinsic value (and some cash) in a safe......or burried in PVC pipe in the yard.

[The]

I've changed my status to BUNKER DEFCON 1. That means purchase and hide some metals with intrinsic value (and some cash) in a safe......or burried in PVC pipe in the yard.

In that case you should be buying lead. Infinitely more valuable than gold, silver, or naked pics of Bea Arthur.

[Sooner5030]

on a serious note.....I am trying to decide between buying bars verses coins. Like the buffalo and I forgot the silver one.

[saucysoonergal]

I buy lots of lead and using my Philospher's Stone, turn it to gold.

[Blue]

on a serious note.....I am trying to decide between buying bars verses coins. Like the buffalo and I forgot the silver one.

Old coins. You want to have something tangible to buy your 100 dollar loaf of bread once the mayans invade in 2012.;)

[Sooner5030]

Old coins. You want to have something tangible to buy your 100 dollar loaf of bread once the mayans invade in 2012

thanks....I'm leaning towards splitting 50/50 between gold and silver coins.

Is $1.00-2.00/per oz premium above spot getting ripped off?

[JohnnyMack]

You can't buy metals back of spot.

Spot or slightly back is what a dealer buys at. There's a bid/ask spread on metals and a consumer would be paying the ask.

APMEX is a very reputable company who won't screw you.

And gold is cheap. Silver moreso.

[SoonerLVZ]

from everything I've read is that if you want to have something like this, the solid form is the way to go, and to stay away from coins. FDR made a play to grab all gold US coins back in the 30's and that investors are afraid of something similar now. (not that everything is about US coins, but just a fear) Also coins are overvalued and not you will have a hard time reselling them unless you are just going to melt them down.

try this for starters.

http://news.silverseek.com/GoldIsMoney/1177183323.php

[Blue]

I got in at 9 and now its pushin 30. Of course it was only like 500 bucks, but dang, thats a good roi. I only wish I wasnt poor. I'd buy alot more.

[soonerscuba]

FDR made a play to grab all gold US coins back in the 30's and that investors are afraid of something similar now.Investors aren't afraid of this, Glenn Beck's gullible legion is.

[Sooner5030]

I am looking to start small (~5k) since this is just protection from a SHTF scenario.

Coins are attractive because they are smaller and probably will be easier to convert to currency or trade for goods than the bars would be. But I am a newbie when it comes to owning physical gold and silver.

BUNKER DEFCON 2 is buying 10-20 acres. Trigger criteria for DEFCON 2 will probably be a downgrade in US Debt rating.

[JohnnyMack]

I am looking to start small (~5k) since this is just protection from a SHTF scenario.

Coins are attractive because they are smaller and probably will be easier to convert to currency or trade for goods than the bars would be. But I am a newbie when it comes to owning physical gold and silver.

BUNKER DEFCON 2 is buying 10-20 acres. Trigger criteria for DEFCON 2 will probably be a downgrade in US Debt rating.

Just buy krugerrands or 1 oz. bars, don't pay the premium for maple leafs or American eagles.

[Sooner5030]

krugerrands.

http://www.apmex.com/Product/62/1_oz_Gold_Krugerrand___Random_Year_.aspx

Here is one (1 oz) for $44 above spot or $1,422 per coin. I can only afford like three based on my BUNKER DEFCON 1 limit of 5k in metals.

http://www.apmex.com/Product/1018/South_Africa_1_10_oz_Gold_Krugerrand___Random_Year .aspx

I could go with the 1/10 oz coin for $168 coin but that is like $1,685 per oz? I guess there is a premium for us who want to start small. Kinda like the premium on the smaller bottles of booze.

I'll shop for a few weeks and take in all the advice I can. But if APMEX turns out to have a a good rep I will use them as they are an okie company.

[JohnnyMack]

krugerrands.

http://www.apmex.com/Product/62/1_oz_Gold_Krugerrand___Random_Year_.aspx

Here is one (1 oz) for $44 above spot or $1,422 per coin. I can only afford like three based on my BUNKER DEFCON 1 limit of 5k in metals.

http://www.apmex.com/Product/1018/South_Africa_1_10_oz_Gold_Krugerrand___Random_Year .aspx

I could go with the 1/10 oz coin for $168 coin but that is like $1,685 per oz? I guess there is a premium for us who want to start small. Kinda like the premium on the smaller bottles of booze.

I'll shop for a few weeks and take in all the advice I can. But if APMEX turns out to have a a good rep I will use them as they are an okie company.

Spot is actually X and they're PAYING X+$20 and CHARGING you X+$45. Not unfair.

[Jammin']

I buy lots of lead and using my Philospher's Stone, turn it to gold.

The Van Morrison Album? Well ****, I've owned that for a decade and had no idea.


Oh and if the economy tanks as bad as some you are betting on, water will be a bigger play than metals.

[NormanPride]

Yeah, you think whatever vendors can manage to stay open will care about gold coins? If the economy tanks that bad it would be better to trade in some sort of craft.

[pphilfran]

You would be better off buying barrels of oil...though storage might be a problem...

[GDC]

http://canidoit.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/yoda-scrap-metal-sculpture1.jpg

Hang on to your metal and build something like this...

[Tulsa_Fireman]

If it's an END OF THE WORLD scenario, why even bother? If you have gold or silver coins and I have land and food, you can enjoy a delicious plate of gold and silver coins along with the buckshot you'll eat by coming on my land to buy my food.

[SicEmBaylor]

If it's an END OF THE WORLD scenario, why even bother? If you have gold or silver coins and I have land and food, you can enjoy a delicious plate of gold and silver coins along with the buckshot you'll eat by coming on my land to buy my food.

You'd shoot someone for trying to buy your food? Steal your food, sure...but buy?

[NormanPride]

Everyone gets shot in an end of the world scenario.

[royalfan5]

If this turns into Mad Max, I personally am angling to be one of the first ones shot.

[NormanPride]

I want to at least live to see a Thunderdome created.

[Sooner5030]

SHTF scenario is not a end of the world scenario. Just a disruption in transportation, government, currency and/or food distribution.

[royalfan5]

I want to at least live to see a Thunderdome created.

I guess I am reserving to change my mind if I can find a midget to strap to my back.

[OnlyOneOklahoma]

SHTF scenario is not a end of the world scenario. Just a disruption in transportation, government, currency and/or food distribution.

IT'S A FIRE SALE
http://i54.tinypic.com/33k9lbd.jpg

The investment idea is sound, the insurance idea makes you sound like you should head to Missouri and join a militia.

[OnlyOneOklahoma]

Hey, I am thinking about buying metal because it is tangible. I am not buying it because I fear the end of the USA.

If unemployment gets to 15%, then I am buying it because I fear the end of our country.

[olevetonahill]

Ive invested in Lead, Copper and Brass. I think Ill be ok in a SHTF dealio:D
http://freakoutnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Bullets.jpg

[Sooner5030]

you can't eat ammo and it won't fill your gas tank.

I may just drop the physical metal scheme and buy Tampons. If we ever go madmax I could have alot of power if I controlled the supply of tampons.

[Blue]

you can't eat ammo and it won't fill your gas tank.

I may just drop the physical metal scheme and buy Tampons. If we ever go madmax I could have alot of power if I controlled the supply of tampons.

Alcohol and smokes. You'd be the richest guy in the Fema Camp.

[OnlyOneOklahoma]

^^^^ 1000 internets to you. That is fool proof. Honestly I would buy a storage area and just stock it with stuff, dont tell anyone, just fill it up with food batteries etc.

[olevetonahill]

you can't eat ammo and it won't fill your gas tank.

I may just drop the physical metal scheme and buy Tampons. If we ever go madmax I could have alot of power if I controlled the supply of tampons.

No but with my ammo I can get what I need. and protect what I have.;)

[royalfan5]

Ive invested in Lead, Copper and Brass. I think Ill be ok in a SHTF dealio:D
http://freakoutnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Bullets.jpg

Just remember to shoot straight, and try not to make too big of a mess of me.

[olevetonahill]

Just remember to shoot straight, and try not to make too big of a mess of me.

Heh , Im not an allsome marksman like LAS i aint ever made a 1000 yard shot But i do ok around 750 er less.;)

[tommieharris91]

Alcohol and smokes. You'd be the richest guy in the Fema Camp.

I'm sure olevet has stocked up on alcohol and smokes too.

[sheepdogs]

You would be better suited to purchase gold through an Exchange Traded Fund such as GLD. You can, with minimal cost, purchase or sell gold at anytime the markets are opened and not have to leave the warm spot right in front of your computer, and you don't have to worry about storage either. If you purchase physical bullion at a local dealer you will pay fees per each ounce of gold traded getting in and out and it's an unecessary cost to be born by you.

[Soonrs]

I have been buying gold and silver since 2003. If you are buying metals and simple want the investment potential, GLD or SLV are good investment vehicles. Keep mind that they are "paper" commodities and will never covert to bullion. Look at SLW too. I am up 35% since September.
If you are looking to buy physical silver, you can get most US circulated coins at spot plus shipping. I have been buying silver war nickles, dimes, and quarters. Stay away from unknown silver bars, graded coins, and coins with punched holes in them. Good luck finding American Eagles for spot plus 10%.
As for gold, make sure buy from a reputable source. There is a lot of fake or gold plated junk floating around.
Silver is the best buy right now. All commodities are sky rocketing thanks to QE2 and Ben Benanke's "deflationary" printing press.

[olevetonahill]

I'm sure olevet has stocked up on Corn, sugar and tobacco seeds too.

FIFY :D

[Sooner5030]

update:

purchased physical but small quantities:

40 x 2011 1oz silver eagles when spot was ~$26.....paid like $1.89/oz over spot.

4 x 10oz Silvertowne silver bars when spot was ~$27....paid $1.19/oz over spot.

2 x 1oz Credit Suisse Cold bars in assay cards when spot was ~$1,360....paid $34 above spot/oz.

We started small as we would like to wait until PMs dip once the economy gets going. It's a great feeling though. Was very satisfied with the okc company apmex.

[delhalew]

update:

purchased physical but small quantities:

40 x 2011 1oz silver eagles when spot was ~$26.....paid like 19 cents/oz over spot.

4 x 10oz Silvertowne silver bars when spot was ~$27....paid slightly above spot per oz.

2 x 1oz Credit Suisse Cold bars in assay cards when spot was ~$1,360....paid $34 above spot/oz.

We started small as we would like to wait until PMs dip once the economy gets going. It's a great feeling though. Was very satisfied with the okc company apmex.

I was going to do that when spot $834. Whoops.

[King Barry's Back]

I've changed my status to BUNKER DEFCON 1. That means purchase and hide some metals with intrinsic value (and some cash) in a safe......or burried in PVC pipe in the yard.

I don't know.

If society collapses, people find out I've got gold, they're probably going to kill me for it.

meh.

[Sooner5030]

I don't actually bury silver in PVC pipe in my yard. Just an expression of hoarding it or wanting to hoard it.

Also, society will not collapse.......it has always continued on when governments collapse or during any other turbulent times.

And dude...someone could kill you for the 20 FRNs in your wallet also.

[yermom]

the thing is, gold works anywhere. the US economy goes to ****, gold plays anywhere in the world. if the dollar manages to get hyperinflated, the Benjamins in your safe are toilet paper. from what Ron Paul says we are probably okay as long as we keep the stranglehold on the oil market. Saddam started wanting Euros for his oil. we couldn't have that...

Olevet's not too far off either. i've heard of people stockpiling boxes 9mm ammo. the shtf, and that's another possible currency...

and Tulsa_Fireman isn't shooting you. you are eating the buckshot from the rabbit/squirrel/dog that he shot and sold you :D

[Oldnslo]

Don't look now, but Silver is up $2/oz in the past 2 days. Gold is back on an uptick, too.

The Fed has pumped trillions of dollars into the economy as part of the stimulus. There HAS to be inflation.

and I've got an extra case of 9mm to go with the water and MRE's.

Did you ever listen to the folks who were on the scene for Katrina? They spoke about how "thin the layer of civilization" was. Hell, we just had 2 snowstorms that caused people to utterly drain the stores of food. If anything actually brown hits an actual fan, only the Good Lord above knows how folks will react.

[NormanPride]

Too many people, too little resources. If SHTF, we're all SOL. Face it and embrace it, people.

[Sooner5030]

okies will be ok or better off than most. Ok is a net exporter of food, energy and water.

[NormanPride]

True, but you're assuming that we have the infrastructure to regularly get those necessities to our people. Without the government to tell those people what to do it will most likely just go to waste as people down the street starve.

[Sooner5030]

http://www.metalprices.com/pubcharts/PublicCharts.aspx?metal=ag%20comex&type=V&weight=&days=12&size=&bg=EDF2F8

this sucks as most of us will not get the opportunity to BTFD any time soon. Buying in at 5-10 year highs is risky even if it's nowhere near the 1980 high (in real $) and not inline with gold prices. That's the only reason I keep my physical quantity low. If it gets down to $15/oz again.....i'm in....like "build a vault" in.

[soonercruiser]

Just buy krugerrands or 1 oz. bars, don't pay the premium for maple leafs or American eagles.

From what I have researched...
Gold bar is only marked up around 5% max by dealers.
Because of the increased difficulty to convert, gold coins may be marked up by up to 25%.
Problem with silver is (if you want it in your physical posession) you are going to have to come up with some LARGE, secure storage options.

[soonercruiser]

The Van Morrison Album? Well ****, I've owned that for a decade and had no idea.
Oh and if the economy tanks as bad as some you are betting on, water will be a bigger play than metals.

Precious metals + several big guns!
:D

[soonercruiser]

update:

purchased physical but small quantities:

40 x 2011 1oz silver eagles when spot was ~$26.....paid like $1.89/oz over spot.

4 x 10oz Silvertowne silver bars when spot was ~$27....paid $1.19/oz over spot.

2 x 1oz Credit Suisse Cold bars in assay cards when spot was ~$1,360....paid $34 above spot/oz.

We started small as we would like to wait until PMs dip once the economy gets going. It's a great feeling though. Was very satisfied with the okc company apmex.

That was APMEX, correct?
Any local OK banks to visit on this?

[TUSooner]

I've heard around here that if you have enough lead and brass you can get all the gold and silver you want.

[Sooner5030]

yes I used APMEX........I asked around some forums first and it appeared there were enough folks that had used them and were satisfied.

silver eagles have increased to about $2.99/oz over spot due to a bottle neck in production though.......or some say. They are legal tender ($1) so uncle sam could ask for them back.

[StoopTroup]

I have all the fire power I'll need to get the precious metal I will need when the **** goes down.

Invest in lead, brass and gunpowder.

[proud gonzo]

I've changed my status to BUNKER DEFCON 1. That means purchase and hide some metals with intrinsic value (and some cash) in a safe......or burried in PVC pipe in the yard.


I am looking to start small (~5k) since this is just protection from a SHTF scenario.

Coins are attractive because they are smaller and probably will be easier to convert to currency or trade for goods than the bars would be. But I am a newbie when it comes to owning physical gold and silver.

BUNKER DEFCON 2 is buying 10-20 acres. Trigger criteria for DEFCON 2 will probably be a downgrade in US Debt rating.

Um... do you realize that DEFCON 5 is least severe and DEFCON 1 is most severe?

[olevetonahill]

Ive invested in Lead, Copper and Brass. I think Ill be ok in a SHTF dealio:D
http://freakoutnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Bullets.jpg


I've heard around here that if you have enough lead and brass you can get all the gold and silver you want.


I have all the fire power I'll need to get the precious metal I will need when the **** goes down.

Invest in lead, brass and gunpowder.

Think I addressed this a month er so ago :P :cool:

[Sooner5030]

Um... do you realize that DEFCON 5 is least severe and DEFCON 1 is most severe?

dude it's not that serious.......besides in my time we heard more about FPCON than defcon. We also never used the term defcon in OIF or OEF. Yes I know what it is.

[StoopTroup]

I saw this tonight on that Alaska Gold Mining Show...


Hedge fund Billionaire John Paulson has invested more than 4 Billion in Gold. With more bullion than most small countries, he made $158 dollars every second last year. He believes the price per ounce of gold could reach $2,400 within the next two years

So yeah...invest in gold, just remember though...a guy like john or a few guys like John can suddenly dump some shares and have everyone bailing out faster than a blink of an eye. Be very careful of a product that is so stable it needs to have a commercial for it every 1/2 hour on the Fox Network.

[Sooner5030]

Be very careful of a product that is so stable it needs to have a commercial for it every 1/2 hour on the Fox Network.

Gold, Silver, APMEX, Tulving and others do not have commercials on Fox. You must be talking about some investment firm that can purchase both paper and physical gold that can also be part of your IRA and they want a % for this service.

While it can drop like a rock when a few large holders sell......it can also sky rocket when folks don't believe that deliveries will be met or if all the upper middle class folks around the world decide to dump their $.

It's a risk that comes with any investment or insurance policy.......which is why I still have equities and property.

[StoopTroup]

Even physical gold and especially the other schiesters.

[yermom]

i don't think anyone said to dump all your money into gold, just that it might be a good idea to have some laying around to hedge against the dollar

[olevetonahill]

I got some Gold Teeth Ive collected, they worth any thing ?

[Curly Bill]

on a serious note.....I am trying to decide between buying bars verses coins. Like the buffalo and I forgot the silver one.

I bought one of the $50 gold buffaloes for $720 about 4 years ago. I wish I'd bought a bunch of em. :(

[yermom]

I got some Gold Teeth Ive collected, they worth any thing ?

you can probably mail them to Glenn Beck for cash

[Leroy Lizard]

I bought 200 of these.

http://www.mindspeak.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/world-trade-center-gold-coin-image.png

These coins have a section pop up shaped like the World Trade Centers. Can your Krugerrands do that?

[pphilfran]

I bought 200 of these.

http://www.mindspeak.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/world-trade-center-gold-coin-image.png

These coins have a section pop up shaped like the World Trade Centers. Can your Krugerrands do that?

With real gold and silver plating!!!!!!!

Hold on to those dudes...you will be a rich man some day...

[sheepdogs]

I bought 200 of these.

http://www.mindspeak.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/world-trade-center-gold-coin-image.png

These coins have a section pop up shaped like the World Trade Centers. Can your Krugerrands do that?


One ounce of gold would plate about one thousand of these coins. Based on the precious metal content they are absolutely worthless. They advertise this in such a manner as to take advantage of those who have very little ability to think for themselves.

[yermom]

but that's real WTC silver!

and it stands up to remind you about 9-11

don't you want to remember 9-11?

[Jacie]

Used to be a pawn shop in OKC called Brown's and the markup on gold & silver bullion items was as low as I found anywhere. Silver was easy to buy as ingots (various sizes from 1 to 100 ounces) or 1 ounce buttons. Gold could be purchased as bullion coins or gold chain. I realize there is a lot of upward pressure on precious metals due to instability in the Middle East but really, now is a better time to sell than to buy . . .

[sheepdogs]

Used to be a pawn shop in OKC called Brown's and the markup on gold & silver bullion items was as low as I found anywhere. Silver was easy to buy as ingots (various sizes from 1 to 100 ounces) or 1 ounce buttons. Gold could be purchased as bullion coins or gold chain. I realize there is a lot of upward pressure on precious metals due to instability in the Middle East but really, now is a better time to sell than to buy . . .

The largest bank in the world resides in China. Last year they sold 15 tons to its citizens. The same bank sold 7 tons this past January alone.

[Sooner5030]

it's time to sell investment wise but most folks worldwide are hoarding the physical shiat due to expected inflation and concerns over the $.

[Leroy Lizard]

but that's real WTC silver!

and it stands up to remind you about 9-11

don't you want to remember 9-11?

It's amazing that they can call it 24-karat gold plating. I didn't even think they could do that.

[soonercruiser]

I got some Gold Teeth Ive collected, they worth any thing ?

Only outside of your head.
(Not to "discount" anything that's inside your head.) :rolleyes:
Garfield Refining...you can contact them on-line to send you a mailer.
Typical all-gold crown would get you maybe $20.
(Gold crowns are only about 55% gold - other metals in it are used to create physical properties useful for dentistry.)

[yermom]

It's amazing that they can call it 24-karat gold plating. I didn't even think they could do that.

i think they do say it's .0050 ounces or something in the commercial

[Leroy Lizard]

i think they do say it's .0050 ounces or something in the commercial

At one time I calculated the gold worth about $1.50.

[Killerbees]

Stay away from SLV, GLD and etc, they all swap the gold. Your paper is actually backed by more paper that sometimes itself is backed by more paper that is supposedly backed by the physical metal. If you want long term metal exposure in your IRA or such then checkout CEF or one of sprotts funds. I know CEF does not loan out its metal and by charter has to hold 90% of its assets in half gold and half silver in a Canadian bank. They have been in business for about 50 years and are one of the most reputable gold/silver etfs available. They have about 98% actually held right now. I dont know much about Sprotts but supposedly they actually have the goods also.

Another riskier way is miners. I like Hecla mining for silver and dont own any gold miners currently.

I dont buy coins either, if SHTF seriously I figure handy skills will be just as important or more so than a stash of metal coins.

With either coins or etfs you will pay a premium. With gold coins I think its sell at $55 and buy at $35 so thats a $20 loss on every coin. With ETFs its the NAV. NAV is the percent premium you pay to buy a share. ie for CEF you buy one share around $20 and its backed with $18 bucks of physical so thats a 10% premium. Anything below 8% is pretty good but its not really that important if you buy and hold anyways, and you can make that back or more by selling when the NAV is high, so its not really fixed like with coins.

[StoopTroup]

Those guys with the donation boxes for cell phones...are they legit or are they collecting them for the small Amount of gold In them?

[Jacie]

Just like the stock market, past performance has no bearing on what will happen to the price of metals in the future. But for a quick reference (and to show you what you missed out on) here are some rough numbers.

10 years ago, gold was under $300/oz.

5 years ago, gold was under $600/oz.

1 year ago, gold was above $1100/oz.

Today, it is $1400/oz.

[OutlandTrophy]

Silver Default Looms?!
(It's about time!)
Silver Stock Report
by Jason Hommel, Feb 20th, 2011

I apologize in advance that this essay is entirely without humor, completely sober, and deadly serious.

As I write on Sunday evening, Feb. 20th, silver prices are up another 40 cents to $33.10, another 30 year high, going back to the previous high of $50 from Jan. 1980. In the last two trading days, last Thursday and Friday, silver prices increased about a dollar per day.

What's going on?

As I read on the blogs, about 53,000 silver contracts for 5000 oz. each are nearing the first delivery day on Feb. 28th. At that time, each contract must be fully funded to await delivery in the following 30 days, or sold before then. By the way, 53k x 5k = 265 million oz.

http://tfmetalsreport.blogspot.com/2011/02/wow.html

The crazy thing is that the four COMEX approved warehouses have only about 100 million oz. of silver in them. So, in essence, a default looms.

Will this be it? If so, what will happen?

Usually, all but a very few contracts roll over to the next months. The futures contract holders rarely stand for delivery, as in their view it is too difficult, and too costly; they are in this game for the leverage. They usually only put down 10% of the money, so that if silver gains another 10% in price, they double their investment quickly. And if silver moves down 10%, they lose everything!

But here's the kicker. COMEX just raised margin requirements 50% on Friday, meaning that the longs had to put up something probably like 15% instead of the usual 10%. (I have no idea of the real figures, as I have never traded futures, I have never had a futures broker, and don't know where to go for that data.) This means that the longs were not scared out of their positions, as the silver price went up, not down, as the manipulators had intended.

What I do know is that usually, the majority of futures contracts stand about 3 months away from delivery. But not now.

Tonight, 53,000 contracts are looming for either close out, or they will stand for delivery. Out of about 150,000 to 200,000 contracts!

Harvey says 150,000 contracts in open interest.
http://harveyorgan.blogspot.com/

321gold.com says 200,000 contracts in open interest.
http://www.321gold.com/cot_silver.html

The current situation will be resolved in 8 days, and again, in another 30 days after that. Both deadlines are worth watching closely.

Either way, this situation presents several problems.

Clearly, if the longs stand for delivery of 265 million oz., when there are only 100 million oz. in the warehouses, there will be a short squeeze, and the price can go ballistic to the upside, perhaps prices could go up by 5 times higher in a few days.

However the longs don't seem to realize that the shorts can cap the price by several other manipulative methods. They can deliver paper cash, or SLV shares as well. The shorts and COMEX can also limit total physical silver deliveries to as little as 1.5 million ounces to any individual, or 7.5 million ounces total, if my memory of the rules serves. If they do that, the shorts can delay a short squeeze at the COMEX.

But this would create another problem.

A cash settlement, or settlement in SLV shares, or a limit on physical silver deliveries, would be recognized as a default, or a "failure to deliver".

If any such kind of default would take place, it could cause a run on any remaining silver at any other location, such as directly at the refineries, or bullion wholesalers, or bullion dealers like myself.

I hope no such default takes place, as I don't want to go out of business for a few days, or a few weeks, or a few months, while I wait for my suppliers to get re-stocked.

In any event, I think it's important to realize several fundamentals.

1. The dollar itself -- is fraud.

2. Silver futures contracts -- are fraud.

3. Fractional reserve banking -- is fraud.

4. Fractional reserve silver selling -- is fraud.

5. The nature of paper money and all frauds is that they tend to collapse rather suddenly, with little warning, especially when their ability to pay debts is called into question.

6. Argentina maintained a peg of their peso to the dollar, and it lasted until they could no longer make interest payments in dollars. Then, their peso collapsed in value nearly 75% overnight. Even Americans, with American dollars, in American banks (in Argentina) had their dollars forcibly converted into pesos, and their ability to withdraw money severely limited.

7. The same thing can happen to the dollar.

8. Silver prices must be seen to have the potential to explode by about a factor of 4-10, literally overnight. This means we might see silver prices at about $33/oz. on one day, and silver prices from $130 to $330/oz. the next day.

If that happens, I might close up the JH MINT for anywhere from an hour to a day or so, until I can guarantee a source of silver from my suppliers.

I will likely be able to remain in business though, because if there is a price quote, it means silver is available at such prices.

The most likely course is that the paper traders continue their game of "chicken". Both sides will swerve at the last moment and avoid a collision. Prices will likely go up to about $35 to maybe as high as $40 next month.

We will likely have another record sales of silver bars and coins.

The US mint will likely have another record of sales of 1 oz. American Eagle silver coins. They might run out for a week at a time, again.

We will likely have plenty of silver available at about 6% over spot, while all the physical silver ETF's trade at about a 8-12% premium over "spot" prices.

But then again, you never know. I can predict that the busses will likely run on time, and I will likely be right, until they don't. Better order silver now, while you still can.

My greatest fear is that silver will run out. When silver runs out, people will buy other things to protect the value of their dollars, such as food. If people start buying up food, in amounts of up to $100,000, food prices will soar, and that will cause food prices to exceed the values that most people can afford, and then, most people will begin to starve. The beauty of gold and silver is that you cannot eat them, and thus, there is no such thing as a price that is "too high" of a price for gold and silver. My wife and I stocked up on food this weekend at COSTCO. We spent only $700, the least we have spent in months. We filled up the back of our Ford Excursion. You can see what problems would be created if wealthy people begain to buy 50 to 100 truckloads of food at a time, in the event that silver became unavailable.

Further links for further study:

The Silver Institute -- for silver statistics
www.silverinstitute.org

Eric Sprott (a billionaire) is very well informed. The 3 men he listed, Ted Butler, Dave Morgan and Jason Hommel are among the smartest guys in the room when it comes to silver.
http://marcfaberchannel.blogspot.com/20 ... ott-1.html

ECB emergency lending jump persists
Traders ponder whether spike is result of bank error or renewed stress
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ecb-em ... beforebell

CPM Validates Imminent Comprehensive Silver Shortage Predictions
http://blog.ml-implode.com/2011/02/cpm- ... edictions/

$500 Silver, Max Keiser Explains His Price Target -- 19 February 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab5u2rysOfQ

Bill Murphy: "Silver can double in a week, the price is held down with derivatives!"
May 11, 2010 (When silver was priced at $20/oz.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J7x3xcToeQ

Why no talk of $32,567/oz ? by Jason Hommel, Jan 2, 2003
http://www.silverstockreport.com/essays ... _oz_-.html

[OutlandTrophy]

A Chinese Gold Standard?
Alix Steel
02/17/11 - 05:00 AM EST

NEW YORK (TheStreet ) -- China's grab for gold is accelerating at a rapid pace, and it's raising questions about the country's ultimate intentions.

China consumed 175.2 tons of gold in the fourth-quarter of 2010, bringing its grand total for the year to 579.5 tons, or 18.5 million ounces, according to the World Gold Council.

That's a lot of gold. The U.S., in comparison, consumed 233.3 tons in 2010.

It's unknown how much of that gold was consumed by citizens or its central bank, but the question still remains -- What will China do with all that gold?

There is a controversial theory percolating in the gold community that China wants the yuan to become the world's reserve currency and is buying gold and silver in order to do it.

A Chinese gold standard?

The idea is staggering and not to mention fraught with difficulties. China's central bank currently holds 1,054 tons of gold, about 1.8% of its total reserves.

China holds $2.85 trillion in foreign reserves, which means the country would need to buy roughly 66,000 tons of gold to fully back its currency. Even if the country upped the ante to just 3%, the country would need to buy 1,000 tons.

Technically, a full gold standard isn't an option. Under the IMF's first amendment to Article IV of Agreement, ratified in 1978, participating countries are not allowed to peg their currency to gold.

But that doesn't mean that China won't try to legitimize its currency by ramping up its gold holdings. The U.S., which sports the current world reserve currency, holds more than 8,000 tons of gold, more than 8 times the size of the SPDR Gold Shares(GLD).

Not only has China been furiously buying gold, but local gold producers have been looking outside the country to find more gold. State-controlled China National Gold Corp bought half of Coeur d'Alene Mines(CDE)' gold concentrates from its Kensington gold mine in Alaska.

China has also been telling its citizens to buy gold, promoting different gold funds, giving investors access to overseas products and launching a global gold contract based in yuan by Chinese Gold & Silver Exchange. The ICBC and World Gold Council recently teamed up for the creation of the Only Gold Gift Bar in China, where a customer can buy gold as a gift complete with engraving and can sell it back to the ICBC for cash.

"Private citizens have bought more gold in the last 30 months than the People's Bank of China owns altogether," says Adrian Ash, head of research for BullionVault.com. There are also no individual property rights in China, so all the gold citizens own really belongs to China, whether the country would confiscate it is a different story.

China has also been trying to beef up the yuan to make it a more viable global currency.

The People's Bank of China's Website said it is trying to allow banks and businesses in countries like Russia and the U.S. to be able to make direct investments in the yuan, which essentially brings the once-isolated currency onto the world stage. The Website says this move "better support[s] Chinese enterprises to go abroad and facilitate trades and investments."

The country announced Thursday that yuan Forex options will be available in China by April, according to a report in the Wall Street Journal. The option to exchange the yuan into another currency and vice versa will help traders and business hedge their bets as the yuan appreciates not to mention make it a more trade-able asset.

There are now retail bank branches in the U.S. where you can trade in your dollars for yuan. The country is also negotiating currency swap agreements with trading partners where the U.S. dollar is taken out of the transaction and goods are traded in yuan.

Despite grumblings over letting its currency appreciate versus the dollar, from 2005 to 2008 before the financial crisis hit, the yuan rose 30%.

China is also a country that plans long term. Once the largest holder of U.S. debt, China has stopped loaning money as aggressively. According to the U.S. Treasury department's Website, in November 2010, the country lent the U.S. $895.6 billion, which was down 3.6% from the same period a year earlier.

"China has shortened all their maturities to less than 5 years and now they are not as strong in the auctions," argues Chuck Butler, president of EverBank, who believes China wants the yuan as the world's reserve currency. Speculation is bubbling that the country is shying away from the dollar to make more room for another asset.

Some experts say that asset could be gold.

"The world needs to get off the dollar standard," says Peter Schiff, CEO of Euro Pacific Capital. "If China were to back its currency by gold, its currency could be the world's reserve currency."

Yan Xiaomei, deputy director at the People's Bank of China, says "if China holds more gold and silver, it would make RMB more confident in people."

Xiaomei believes that China would buy more gold and silver at the "proper time, but not as a critical policy, the quantity would also be not too big."

According to a report supposedly published by the Economic Information Daily, which is sponsored by the state run Xinhua News Agency, and a statement by a central bank advisor, Xia Bin, China is actively trying to buy gold and silver on price dips with the specific goal of globalizing the yuan.

There are some glaring holes with the article, but it circulated in the gold community nonetheless. First, no one could find the report. Second, if China is buying gold, it is unlikely to announce it for fear of moving the price. China usually makes a formal announcement when it is done with its purchase.

"Once again, we have seen 'news' that is but at the embryonic and certainly not fact-supported stage at this point," says Jon Nadler, senior analyst at Kitco.com.

Nadler also argues that China loves growth too much to switch to a gold standard, "forget about 8% growth." If China supports its currency with gold then it will be forced to limit the amount of money in circulation, which could hurt the economy. "[This is] a far-fetched dream by the gold bugs," says Nadler.

Ash warns "never say never ... But throwing over the world's 40-year experiment with un-backed money? That really would be a historic move by any power."

If China does increase the size of its gold reserves with the express purpose of backing the yuan, the result would be explosive for gold prices.

Butler says that the consensus is "$4,000 to $5,000 gold within the decade."

Jim Rogers, legendary investor who is bullish on China, says a gold standard "would be good for gold if it happened, but it is a long way away."

GFMS executive chairman Philip Klapwijk was unable to comment on how much gold China bought in 2010 or will buy in 2011 due to the sensitivity of the information but did say that even if China just raised its reserves 1,000 tons to 2,000 tons with yearly purchases of 200 tons, the result would still be good for gold prices.

"Not only because of its impact on the global supply/demand balance but also due to its positive effect on investor sentiment and, to some extent, the negative signal it would send about the U.S. dollar."

With gold prices stalling out so far in 2011, down 3.4%, and large gold stocks like Barrick Gold(ABX) and Newmont Mining(NEM) down 6% and 5%, respectively, year to date, the gold world is looking for any kind of catalyst to shake it out of the doldrums.

--Written by Alix Steel in New York.

[OutlandTrophy]

good place to buy gold and silver

tulving.com

[OutlandTrophy]

You will know it is time to get out of the gold and silver game when the greeter or checker at Wal Mart tells you about their gold or silver broker.

[Sooner5030]

http://www.metalprices.com/FreeSite/metals/ag/ag.asp

May contracts at $33.90. Good that I bought physical back around $26-$27......bad that I was waiting for ~$20/oz to buy a lot more.

boo

http://www.metalprices.com/FreeSite/metals/gold/gold.asp

GOLD spot now at $1,407

[OutlandTrophy]

Well, Tulving just sold out of American Silver Eagles at $2.59 per ounce over spot. He has Maples remaining, but if silver gains another $2-3 over the next few days I would expect that it will be hard to find any silver. There is a shortage of silver bullion. The mint just raised their prices as well. Could be interesting.


ps, you're a sucker if you're buying paper gold or paper silver.

[yermom]

yeah, the paper thing basically defeats the purpose of the hedge on the SHTF scenario

[sheepdogs]

yeah, the paper thing basically defeats the purpose of the hedge on the SHTF scenario

The exchange would still have to make good via cash settlements.

[yermom]

the whole idea is to not be totally screwed if the dollar tanks, right?

they gonna give me euros instead?

[cccasooner2]

A history lesson for the youngsters.


http://www.buyandhold.com/bh/en/education/history/2000/hunt_bros.htmlor

[sheepdogs]

the whole idea is to not be totally screwed if the dollar tanks, right?

they gonna give me euros instead?

Unless you sell the gold in a foreign market you would be paid in dollars anyway. Take the dollars and then buy gold and you don't have to worry about the weakness in the dollar.

[yermom]

i think you are missing the point.

[sheepdogs]

i think you are missing the point.

And that would be?

[yermom]

the original poster was not really talking investment, just a back up. a small percentage of savings in physical metals.

the idea is that if the dollar has hyperinflated, or the US was insolvent why would i want dollars?

the other is that if we are talking Mad Max kind of ****e, who is going to be around to give me anything for paper?

the physical metal is not likely to ever lose it's inherent value. you could take it to another continent and get something for it, as opposed to some paper money that could be worth nothing. not to mention that if the money is hyperinflated and you sell for $1,000,000 an ounce and the next day it's $10,000,000 an ounce.

i don't think any of that is all that likely, really, but stranger things have happened in ****tier countries.

[Sooner5030]

Yermom is correct. The original point was not so much about “investment” as it was insurance against TEOTWAWKI or a SHTF scenario.

Additionally the wife and I have re-prioritized our budget and now have accumulated savings (mad money) in addition to the retirement stuff. The problem is it sits in a bank and every year has less purchasing power per/$ so we are losing value.

I figure my gold and silver will purchase the same amount of wheat/oil/cotton/sugar/flower/land in 20 years that it would today…….the FRNs will not do that. Oh…and of course in really bad times the FRNs will approach 0 in value.

[Oldnslo]

A history lesson for the youngsters.


http://www.buyandhold.com/bh/en/education/history/2000/hunt_bros.htmlor

404!

I do see from the link that you're referencing the Hunt Bros.

But that was before there was a "peak silver" scenario. Silver is also a component of some "green" energy components, such as solar panels, so in addition to it's inherent money value, it also has value as a manufacturing metal.

I initially planned to sell my silver at 24. It's at 34 and change today, and I think there's more upside still.

[Sooner5030]

update:

Gold hit 1,445 today before retreating back to 1,431.

Silver hit 36 today before retreating back to 35.80.

It's impossible to BTFD.

[Sooner5030]

$1450 gold and $39 silver today

[Romulus]

1471 today

[JohnnyMack]

1471 today

You're only off by $25. It's $1496.

[Romulus]

Damn wrong chart
Thought it may have been 1496

[JohnnyMack]

Damn wrong chart
Thought it may have been 1496

I mean...got any gold to sell me? :D

[OutlandTrophy]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-15/texas-university-endowment-holds-almost-1-billion-in-gold-bars.html


Shortage Threat Drives Texas Schools Hoarding Bullion at HSBC
By David Mildenberg and Pham-Duy Nguyen - Apr 17, 2011 10:00 AM CT Tweet inShare78More
Business Exchange Buzz up! Digg Print Email
Gold bars are displayed for a photograph at Tanaka Kikinzoku Jewelry K. K.'s store in Tokyo. Photographer: Tomohiro Ohsumi/Bloomberg
Dallas hedge-fund manager J. Kyle Bass helped advise the University of Texas Investment Management Co. on taking delivery of 6,643 gold bars, worth $987 million on April 15, now stored in a bank warehouse in New York.

Bass, who made $500 million with 2006 bets on a U.S. subprime-mortgage market collapse, said managers of the endowment, known as UTIMCO, sought board approval to convert its gold investments into bullion this year. A board member, Bass, 41, said he was asked to help with that process.

While Bass, a managing partner at Hayman Capital Management LP, said in an April 16 e-mail that “the decision to purchase and take delivery of the physical gold” was made by endowment staff members, “I helped where I could.” Gold futures touched a record $1,489.10 an ounce April 15 in New York before closing at $1,486.

The Texas fund’s $19.9 billion in assets ranked it behind only Harvard University’s endowment as of August, according to the National Association of College and University Business Officers. Last year, UTIMCO added about $500 million in gold investments to an existing stake, said Bruce Zimmerman, the endowment’s chief executive officer. The fund’s managers sought to take delivery of bullion to protect against demand for the metal overwhelming supply, according to Bass.

Open interest in gold futures and options traded on the Comex typically exceeds supplies held in its warehouses. If the holders of just 5 percent of those contracts opted to take delivery of the metal, there wouldn’t be enough to cover the demand, Bass said.

Printing Money
“If you own a paper contract where they can only deliver you 10 cents on the dollar or less, you should probably convert it to physical,” said Bass, who isn’t related to Fort Worth’s billionaire Bass family. He said holding cash wasn’t a better choice because the rate of inflation exceeds money-market rates by 2.5 percent to 3 percent, eroding the value of cash.

“Central banks are printing more money than they ever have, so what’s the value of money in terms of purchases of goods and services,” Bass said April 15 in a telephone interview. “I look at gold as just another currency that they can’t print any more of.”

Sovereign-debt concerns also boosted demand for the metal on April 15, driving Comex futures to an all-time high. The price has climbed 28 percent in the past year.

Gold’s 10-year rally has attracted billionaire investors such as George Soros and John Paulson, who seek a store of value as record-low interest rates erode returns on currencies.

Wealthy Buyers
Few investors take physical delivery of bullion. As of April 14, 2,860 contracts this month, about 0.5 percent of total open interest, had been converted to metal, exchange data show.

Physical deliveries have slowed as gold topped records this year, said Blake Robben, a senior market strategist who handles deliveries of Comex metals for clients at Chicago-based broker Lind-Waldock.

“It’s usually wealthy individuals with net worths over $1 million who want to take delivery to diversify away from the dollar,” Robben said. “Generally, it’s a big hassle and not worth it to take delivery.”

Investors can own 100 ounces of gold futures with Lind- Waldock by paying a $100 fee and putting up $6,571 in a margin account to purchase one contract. To take delivery of a 100- ounce bar, investors have to pay the full price of the contract.

Bass, a Texas Christian University graduate who was named to the endowment’s board in August, is a former salesman with Bear Stearns Cos. and Legg Mason Inc. He said about 5 percent of his hedge fund is invested in gold.

The endowment, which oversees funds held by the University of Texas System and Texas A&M University, has 664,300 ounces of bullion in a Comex-registered vault in New York owned by HSBC Holdings Plc, the London-based bank, according to a report distributed at a meeting in Austin.

“I simply voted as a board member to approve the storage facility and concurred with their decisions,” Bass said.

To contact the reporters on this story: David Mildenberg in Austin, Texas, at [email protected]. Pham-Duy Nguyen in Seattle at [email protected].

To contact the editor responsible for this story: Mark Tannenbaum at [email protected]

[Romulus]

well damn if UT is buying Gold, I might as well too

[Sooner5030]

Silver at 43.40 today.

I'm happy that I bought when I did but disappointed there hasn't been a dip to buy more. It's too high to buy in at Hunt price levels.

[Sooner5030]

Gold at $1,660

Silver at $40.83

Out of fear I may load up on some more tomorrow if we get a small dip. I was hoping for a dip today. Historically there has been a dip immediately following a debt ceiling hike and then it goes back up in the following months.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/draghi/gold%20ceiling%20old.jpg