God needs your help! (he takes Visa, MasterCard, or Cashier's Check)

[The]

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Business/ap_crystal_cathedral_101020_mn.jpg


Schuller Pleads for Dollars for Crystal Cathedral (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=11960323)


Emotional Schuller pleads from pulpit for help with Crystal Cathedral's millions in debt



Crystal Cathedral founder the Rev. Robert H. Schuller on Sunday tearfully asked his parishioners for help in overcoming the megachurch's bankruptcy and tens of millions in debt.


Schuller, 84, made the plea from the pulpit as he spoke publicly for the first time since the church filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection Oct. 18.
"I need more help from you," Schuller said, according to the Orange County Register. "If you are a tither, become a double-tither. If you are not a tither, become a tither. This ministry has earned your trust. This ministry has earned your help."


Schuller's voice cracked with emotion as he told congregants about his family home and cornfield in Iowa getting flattened by a tornado when he was a teenager.


"I learned from my father that tough times never last," Schuller said. "Tough people do."


Citing debts of more than $43 million, the Orange County-based church that also produces the long-running "Hour of Power" television show declared bankruptcy last week.


The church, founded in the mid-1950s by Schuller, has already ordered major layoffs, sold property and canceled its annual "Glory of Easter" extravaganza.


Church officials have said that for the time being, "Hour of Power" will remain on the air though the number of stations airing it has been cut.
Chapter 11 bankruptcy allows a business to keep operating while it tries to put its finances in order under court supervision.


The church has said its money troubles are almost entirely the result of the recession, but others have blamed an inability to keep up with the times and leadership and succession problems that included a disastrous attempt to hand the church over to Schuller's son.


Schuller's daughter, Sheila Schuller Coleman, ended up assuming senior pastor duties.


She assured church members Sunday that using "Biblical" money management the church would get out of bankruptcy.

[Veritas]

Don't start threads by cutting and pasting articles. We've got enough gooners doing that already.

[The]

Don't start threads by cutting and pasting articles. We've got enough gooners doing that already.

Bah! You MODs make up your minds already.

[3rdgensooner]

Don't start threads by cutting and pasting articles. We've got enough gooners doing that already.I don't get it...you don't want threads started with sources or you don't want articles posted or what?

[The]

I don't get it...you don't want threads started with sources or you don't want articles posted or what?

Is this a personal preference thing or a SITEPOLICY?

[agoo758]

I'll paraphrase it for ya mod. Some church is millions in debt because they can't control themselves, and now the good ol' reverend is stooping to the same level as the guy I know living on the street asking me to give him money for a pen to fill out a job application. :)

[sooner_born_1960]

He's a husker. Need more be said.

[Veritas]

We've got some posters that like to find some article on a sensitive issue, think up a nice inflammatory title, and then just cut and past the effing thing with little to no commentary on their part.

It's the message board equivalent of a flaming bag of poo on the doorstep. And it usually works out about as well.

I should have said "please," because there's not really any rules about this and nobody (including me) is going to do much about it. However, most people want to share their opinions, especially about politics/religion, which is excellent. Posting up an article with a snarky title doesn't really communicate any opinion. It's just a flaming bag of poo.

[SoonerStud615]

How about instead of tithing money to this over-indulgent crystal abomination, those people give all that money to people who really need it? Just a thought...

[The]

We've got some posters that like to find some article on a sensitive issue, think up a nice inflammatory title, and then just cut and past the effing thing with little to no commentary on their part.

It's the message board equivalent of a flaming bag of poo on the doorstep. And it usually works out about as well.

I should have said "please," because there's not really any rules about this and nobody (including me) is going to do much about it. However, most people want to share their opinions, especially about politics/religion, which is excellent. Posting up an article with a snarky title doesn't really communicate any opinion. It's just a flaming bag of poo.

Thank you. I didn't realize this board was for Serious Discussion.

[sooner_born_1960]

Anything goes...

[Veritas]

On topic, at least Shuller isn't threatening that God is going to kill him if he doesn't come up with the money.

[3rdgensooner]

Thank you. I didn't realize this board was for Serious Discussion.Please espouse on the effects of the financial crisis on the earnings of megachurches as it relates to the effects of the financial crisis on political contributions in right wing America.

Thanks in advance.

[Leroy Lizard]

How about instead of tithing money to this over-indulgent crystal abomination, those people give all that money to people who really need it? Just a thought...

It's empire-building, and it isn't relegated to churches. Not sure what the motivation is for building glamorous churches. Maybe they think it will help attract more parishioners, or maybe it was just part of a large donation. Not sure.

Having said that, I have a lot of respect for Schuller. My kids watched the Hour of Power show quite regularly, although I never cared for tv evangelism.

[Leroy Lizard]

Please espouse on the effects of the financial crisis on the earnings of megachurches as it relates to the effects of the financial crisis on political contributions in right wing America.

Thanks in advance.

I will, once I get past all the prepositional phrases.

[The]

Please espouse on the effects of the financial crisis on the earnings of megachurches as it relates to the effects of the financial crisis on political contributions in right wing America.

Thanks in advance.

E5X2kVKRA6c

[3rdgensooner]

I will, once I get past all the prepositional phrases.Oh yay! Grammar commentary!

[The]

I will, once I get past all the prepositional phrases.

That sentence could have really used an extra preposition.

[TheHumanAlphabet]

Why should I pay to bail out a family that went corrupt? Let 'em fail...

[Leroy Lizard]

Corrupt?

[Leroy Lizard]

Oh yay! Grammar commentary!

I rarely say anything about grammar, but consider:

Please espouse
on the effects
of the financial crisis
on the earnings
of megachurches
as it relates
to the effects
of the financial crisis
on political contributions
in right wing America.

[3rdgensooner]

I rarely say anything about grammar, but consider:

Please espouse
on the effects
of the financial crisis
on the earnings
of megachurches
as it relates
to the effects
of the financial crisis
on political contributions
in right wing America.

They're words on a message board, not a thesis. I was pretty deliberate about that post.

[Mississippi Sooner]

Well, great. Now I have to go clean all this poo off my shoes.

[The]

Well, great. Now I have to go clean all this poo off my shoes.

WATCH OUT! THEY'RE STILL ON FIRE!!!!

[sooner ngintunr]

Its just "business".

[C&CDean]

The title to the thread was lame. Mildy creative, but lame.

That being said, please do not even get me started on mega-churches, televangelists, rock & roll churches, etc.

I'm pretty certain God doesn't really want/need some monstrous building and a preacher with a fleet of Lear jets to get His word out. I'm fairly confident he'd rather have those fine folks give their hard-earned funds to the folks that do the real work and the ones who need the help. How many scholarships could you buy with what that church cost? How many meals could you provide? How many families could be assisted with the brazillions of $$ they spent on that abomination? Sorry Schuller, but you've got some 'splainin' to do in the by and by...

[Leroy Lizard]

The title to the thread was lame. Mildy creative, but lame.

That being said, please do not even get me started on mega-churches, televangelists, rock & roll churches, etc.

I'm pretty certain God doesn't really want/need some monstrous building and a preacher with a fleet of Lear jets to get His word out. I'm fairly confident he'd rather have those fine folks give their hard-earned funds to the folks that do the real work and the ones who need the help. How many scholarships could you buy with what that church cost? How many meals could you provide? How many families could be assisted with the brazillions of $$ they spent on that abomination? Sorry Schuller, but you've got some 'splainin' to do in the by and by...

Schuler would simply say that the churches were designed to increase their draw and, therefore, the money they could use to help people.

Sure, he could have kept the church in a local barn and attracted 50 or so people. But how much good can they do then?

I'm not saying that his church put the money to good use. I have no way of knowing how much of their total take went to charitable purposes.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

43 million dollars in debt...I imagine God is not too thrilled with that bad stewardship


"I need more help from you," Schuller said, according to the Orange County Register. "If you are a tither, become a double-tither. If you are not a tither, become a tither. This ministry has earned your trust. This ministry has earned your help."


Thats bogus...arm twisting people to give is not acceptable.

At our church, the pastor says if you ever feel like Im trying to force you to give, keep your money and give it somewhere else..

[Leroy Lizard]

43 million dollars in debt...I imagine God is not too thrilled with that bad stewardship



Thats bogus...arm twisting people to give is not acceptable.

At our church, the pastor says if you ever feel like Im trying to force you to give, keep your money and give it somewhere else..

Churches run almost solely on donations. When funds are low, you have to ask for more. It's not like a normal business.

God doesn't care about his financial capabilities. God isn't going to fire him.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I'm fairly sure I know how churches run...

And no, you don't have to ask for more..you tell the people whats going on..But there are enough scriptures about giving and the proper way that you don't go begging people to give of their money..

and it doesn't sound like people not giving is the problem...it looks like spending is the problem..

[sooner ngintunr]

So now they have to scrape by on the 2 million dollars A MONTH that they bring in.

The crystal cathedral was built in 1980 for 18 million dollars. Now they own 36 million dollars of mortgage debt? Do the math. Unless they were mortgaging houses for alot of different people, something there kind of stinks.

SOunds like they got caught trying to make millions off of real estate. It didn't work out for them. Like I said, its just business.

[Leroy Lizard]

And no, you don't have to ask for more..you tell the people whats going on..

Oh, drop them plenty of hints. I get it. Sort of a veiled begging.

I prefer them to just come out and ask.


and it doesn't sound like people not giving is the problem...it looks like spending is the problem..

That may well be the case.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

telling them your 43 million in the hole is not asking or veiled begging...its saying we've had a problem...telling somebody your broke doesnt mean your asking for money...its being responsible to the people who give...

Here is how we did it recently..obviously on a much smaller scale..

we put a 60k sound system in the church..We told the people after meeting with the elders this is what we are doing, this is how much we are borrowing, if you would like to give for that, just write on your check that you want it to go for this...that was it...

At our church, there hasn't been a single time money has been begged for...and we are the only completely debt free church in the area that i know of

[MR2-Sooner86]

God loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more.

There's my thoughts on the matter. Not my original thoughts but he says it so better than I ever could.

[Leroy Lizard]

we put a 60k sound system in the church..We told the people after meeting with the elders this is what we are doing, this is how much we are borrowing, if you would like to give for that, just write on your check that you want it to go for this...that was it...

At our church, there hasn't been a single time money has been begged for...and we are the only completely debt free church in the area that i know of

I think the magnitude of scale is an issue here. Simply telling people you are in debt is not going to generate much revenue.

Ask any fundraiser. When you approach a potential donor, you ask them for the money. If all you do is lay down your problems you're not going to get much.

Is it begging? Well, if it is then a lot of charities and non-profits are equally guilty.

Here is a Web site that lists the fundamental rules of fundraising. Note the following:


Rule 3 - Ask for money, not for "support."

Almost always, the purpose of a fundraising letter is to ask for financial help Be sure you do so - clearly, explicitly and repeatedly. The "Ask" (pardon my jargon) shouldn't be an afterthought, tacked onto the end of a letter: it's you reason for writing.

Repeat the "Ask" several times in the body of the letter as well as on the reply device. It may even be appropriate to lead your letter with the Ask.

The Ask should appear at least twice in the letter and twice again on the reply device. The request for funds should be clear and explicit.

http://www.fundraiserhelp.com/cardinal-rules-fundraising-letters.htm

[stoops the eternal pimp]

I think your looking at the church from a natural stand point...probably why we look at this from different views..I'm thinking as somebody who has been involved in churches that are in debt and one that isn't what works..

that 60k sound system was paid off by a church of less than 130 people in less than 45 days...We believe God lays it on people's hearts what to give...We don't need to convince them..We prefer to go by the Bible instead of a man's method of gaining revenue

[Leroy Lizard]

I think your looking at the church from a natural stand point...probably why we look at this from different views..I'm thinking as somebody who has been involved in churches that are in debt and one that isn't what works..

that 60k sound system was paid off by a church of less than 130 people in less than 45 days...We believe God lays it on people's hearts what to give...We don't need to convince them..We prefer to go by the Bible instead of a man's method of gaining revenue

You keep referring to begging as if it violate Scripture. Maybe it does, but I'm not sure how.

You cannot compare your situation to that of Schuller. If you didn't get a sound system, bfd. If Schuller doesn't raise the money, the Church could evaporate.

You were on 3rd and 4 in the first quarter. Shuller is down 21 points with only three minutes left. His situation calls for more drastic playcalling.

[stoops the eternal pimp]

How about when the church moved out of the house of the founders and they purchased the properties they have now with 10 members? I mean really I threw that out there about the sound system but I can give you all kinds of examples of important times in the church history were something was needed and it was taken care of...without begging.

We've built schools, orphanages, a center that rescues girls from the sex slave industry in India and staffed those places with full time employees..provided over 5000 meals to local families last year who couldnt buy groceries...without begging once...a church of 130 people..not a real wealthy person in the bunch..

I guess if they wanna figure out their money issues that way, then more power to em..We believe God is the convincer and the love he puts in us, not a man begging..

So anyway, its been a good conversation..I'm out

[Leroy Lizard]

How about when the church moved out of the house of the founders and they purchased the properties they have now with 10 members? I mean really I threw that out there about the sound system but I can give you all kinds of examples of important times in the church history were something was needed and it was taken care of...without begging.

We've built schools, orphanages, a center that rescues girls from the sex slave industry in India and staffed those places with full time employees..provided over 5000 meals to local families last year who couldnt buy groceries...without begging once...a church of 130 people..not a real wealthy person in the bunch.

Then your parishioners must be holding up Tiffany's jewelry stores in their spare time.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

We've got some posters that like to find some article on a sensitive issue, think up a nice inflammatory title, and then just cut and past the effing thing with little to no commentary on their part.

It's the message board equivalent of a flaming bag of poo on the doorstep. And it usually works out about as well.

I should have said "please," because there's not really any rules about this and nobody (including me) is going to do much about it. However, most people want to share their opinions, especially about politics/religion, which is excellent. Posting up an article with a snarky title doesn't really communicate any opinion. It's just a flaming bag of poo.Feeling a little nervous about the upcoming game with the Wannabe Defectors, are we? Didn't you like the Rev Schuler's imitation of Oral Roberts?

[GottaHavePride]

So.... Six Flags Over Jesus is having money troubles?


Yeah, put me down in the "let it fold and put the money they're raising to a better use than maintaining a shiny building" column.

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Schuler would simply say that the churches were designed to increase their draw and, therefore, the money they could use to help people.

Sure, he could have kept the church in a local barn and attracted 50 or so people. But how much good can they do then?

I'm not saying that his church put the money to good use. I have no way of knowing how much of their total take went to charitable purposes.Do you think anyone else posting in this thread does either?

[Leroy Lizard]

Do you think anyone else posting in this thread does either?

They are certainly assuming. I'm not.

BTW, have you been hanging out in Berkeley for the last two weeks? What gives?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

BTW, have you been hanging out in Berkeley for the last two weeks? What gives?'Splanation?!!??!?!?

[Leroy Lizard]

'Splanation?!!??!?!?

Eh, it just seems that your posts lately have been so much

http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/al_franken_senate.jpg

Do something about that, will ya?

[RUSH LIMBAUGH is my clone!]

Eh, it just seems that your posts lately have been so much

http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/al_franken_senate.jpg

Do something about that, will ya?I've gone PROGRESSIVE. I have developed a need to join the RULING CLASS...LET ME IN, BARACK!

[dwarthog]

Please espouse on the effects of the financial crisis on the earnings of megachurches as it relates to the effects of the financial crisis on political contributions in right wing America.

Thanks in advance.

See Chamber of Commerce.....

[TUSooner]

It's just a flaming bag of poo.
Wait... Are those considered bad ? :confused: :confused:

Somebody better tell Tuba and Rush Limbaugh's Parrot.

:)

[landrun]

I'm not saying that his church put the money to good use. I have no way of knowing how much of their total take went to charitable purposes.

Perhaps that's the problem.

I wouldn't join a church that didn't have an open budget.
You can walk into our church and pick up a copy of the budget off the table outside the worship center. Turn around and walk out.

You can see what the pastor makes, the youth minister, music minister, secretaries and janitorial staff. You can see how much we give to outside causes... etc.... nothing to hide from anyone. You don't have to be a member to see the budget or even Christian. An athiest can walk in, say, "I'm an atheist. Lemme see your budget." And we'll say, "...its right there on that table, have a copy."

If your church won't do that, leave. Seriously.

It isn't their money, it truly belongs to God. If they're hiding what they're doing, it is because they're crooks in the name of Jesus. And if you're a member and aren't allowed to see the budget, you're a fool. :rolleyes:

[picasso]

I don't get it...you don't want threads started with sources or you don't want articles posted or what?

What are you? The's background dancer or something?

At least try and be a funny troll.

[picasso]

How about instead of tithing money to this over-indulgent crystal abomination, those people give all that money to people who really need it? Just a thought...

How do you know they don't? I give money to my church and to special donations. I also take food, books and clothing to homeless shelters.

Perhaps you should check out how much charity a church actually gives.

Just a thought.

[The]

What are you? The's background dancer or something?

At least try and be a funny troll.


What are you? RUSH LIMBAUGH IS MY CLONE'S alt?

http://rlv.zcache.com/dont_be_so_angry_shirt-p235189564502842596ud3o_400.jpg

[Leroy Lizard]

Perhaps that's the problem.

I wouldn't join a church that didn't have an open budget.
You can walk into our church and pick up a copy of the budget off the table outside the worship center. Turn around and walk out.

You can see what the pastor makes, the youth minister, music minister, secretaries and janitorial staff. You can see how much we give to outside causes... etc.... nothing to hide from anyone. You don't have to be a member to see the budget or even Christian. An athiest can walk in, say, "I'm an atheist. Lemme see your budget." And we'll say, "...its right there on that table, have a copy."

If your church won't do that, leave. Seriously.

It isn't their money, it truly belongs to God. If they're hiding what they're doing, it is because they're crooks in the name of Jesus. And if you're a member and aren't allowed to see the budget, you're a fool. :rolleyes:

I go to church to worship, not to invest venture capital.

[Tulsa_Fireman]

How do you know they don't? I give money to my church and to special donations. I also take food, books and clothing to homeless shelters.

Perhaps you should check out how much charity a church actually gives.

Just a thought.

All of which are admirable efforts. Each and every one.

But is paying the salary of the secretary a tithe? Paying the cable bill so your pastor can watch Benny Hinn? Paying the last couple of payments for those two speakers for the choir?

Just a thought.